Flogging – Violence begets (begats) Violence

Submitted by the Mahogany Coconut Think Tank and Watchdog Group
corporal and capital punishment have widespread support

…corporal and capital punishment have widespread support…

The Mahogany Coconut Group is quite aware that corporal and capital punishment have widespread support throughout the Caribbean region. We respectfully suggest that this strong support is based on the often referenced biblical positions: If you spare the rod you spoil the child and an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Many of us growing up in the region experienced serious lashes for our wrong doings. Indeed, some claim that these floggings actually saved them from the hangman’s noose.

There is a rising school of thought, which suggests that our addiction to corporal punishment is an after effect of the beatings we received at the hands of the slave master; that our entire history is based on violence and that corporal punishment is a psychological left over or is it carry over, from the slave days. The MCG finds this position to be quite viable and we go as far as to suggest, that much of how we see ourselves at present, may very well be the after effects of slavery , in several forms but we digress.

The debate on corporal punishment, has taken centre stage over the past few weeks because a mother in Trinidad and Tobago, flogged her teenage daughter and then released the beatings on social media. The daughter had apparently posed semi nude and had distributed her pictures on face book. We understand the rage of the mother but we cannot condone inflicting beatings on a minor and then exposing such brutality for the world to see. It makes our region look barbaric.

We are even more concerned because a few months ago, a Barbadian mother, beat her daughter in public with a piece of wood and she was hailed as some sort of hero for brutalizing her child. We note that the mother in Trinidad and Tobago also has attracted considerable support. The belief that such physical abuse will by some strange act of magic, make these young ladies better children or at a later stage better adults, escapes the MCG. Quite frankly we believe that both parents should have been prosecuted for such violence against children they should be protecting.

There are many things wrong with America but there is no parent who can get away with such actions. The authorities would have removed the children from the homes and placed them under the supervision of the relevant child protection agency. Those who hold fast to the belief that children should be beaten in homes and schools, should be warned ,that the same bible they rely on for strengthening their positions on corporal punishment does mention, we think, that violence begets (begats) violence. Even if we have misquoted the bible we believe this to be true.

In both cases the mothers were wrong.

93 comments

  • Why do proponents of ‘child non-discipline’ always use the extreme examples to strengthen their position? Surely such celebrated cases are the extreme minority.

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  • Corporal punishment is okay so along one understands the line between corporal punishment to instill discipline in a child and physical abuse. Now the one thing I could grasped about the school system in Barbados, was the physical brutalization of an innocent child to instill education. For examples: I remember quite vividly, teachers beating pupils if their were given an equation and they got it wrong. Now, no one was smart enough in those days to have realized that some of those pupils may have had some intellectual- impairments/ cognitive – deficiencies.

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  • PLANTATION DEEDS FROM 1926 TO 2014 , MASSIVE FRAUD ,LAND TAX BILLS AND NO DEEDS OF BARBADOS, BLPand DLP=Massive Fruad

    MCT @ We do not agree.
    Many words in this are legal terms and have the eye to say a law was broken , Once a law is broken then they are different words to then give punishment . The accused then is charged to see if such was true, If the mothers dont do some thing NOW it can be much harder on the girls later in Life and once again you all will look back at the mothers,
    At least the mothers care to try , The government will not want to help for is will cost them money. We got the same in younger days in Barbados and none of us turn out bad,
    The day before yesterday the 2 young boys had a fight because one talked of the others Mother.The parents where called to the school, The punishment was 2 day home, Suspension or 2 Lashes ., NOW think
    Suspension is that HANGING? of the ground? Lashes = cat of nine tails?
    So watch the words and they may have changed in time to less brutal meanings,
    Ask the crooks in jail if any one try to fix them at home?
    See how many had to wait for the police in Barbados to beat them for the first time at the police station, Most crooks hand it out but cant take it them self,

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  • It is unfortunate that the teachers did not realize the depth of your impairment, no child should have to endure the beatings that you must of got from the teachers and the other students who knew you . We can only hope by you bravely coming out and showing what devastating effect the constant pummeling has had on your brain function that we can avoid the mistakes of smacking about the head of another obviously handicapped child

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  • Why must every blog evoke the same empty comments from the same commenters? If BU is not something you respect or want to add value are they not options? To be honest it is boring stuff for some to have wade through.

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  • The issue of corporal punishment is one which is very emotive and will continue to be so by those who stake up on either side of the issue. We must begin the discussion by looking for examples where different situation in which children are raised will result in different responses. It is no different to poor people having children, or more crime in slum areas etc.

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  • @ David
    These same people who ‘evoke the same empty comments’ on every blog have agendas. Agendas that are directed to a particular view for that view’s sake. These same people have never even sat down to write a solitary article but pretend to always know too tille about too much. We speak, for example, of the person who represents himself Bullen Robert Ross. A defender of an institution whose central tenets are to partake in bootsy penetration with young boys and deflower young girls. Most of them children pre puberty. A devotee to racism which says that regardless of what White people do to any Black it is justifiable or defensible in his racist mind. You have seen his trajectory of opinion. He is therefor a racist and a pooch picker. I will never relent in making these arguments. This is the kind of violence being prepetrated in our society today.

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  • vvvvvvvvvvv

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  • Lol show me a liveing creature that don’t use phical force?

    Cut them ass now or let the police do it for ya later.

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  • If wanna want to stop floging start with the police. Teck way the guns and battons.

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  • @ Mahogany Coconut
    It is a good idea NOT to write about things that you don’t understand. We already have ac for that….

    Spare the rod and you WILL spoil the child. Look around at the societies that have outlawed corporal punishment administered by LOVED ones……
    As Ready Done says, the alternative is corporal punishment applied by the police, task force and army……

    There IS a way that SEEMS right to ordinary folk…….but the end thereof is the way of death and destruction.

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  • This is an ongoing war between sociologist and parents having to deal with parental rights where parents remains adamant in the belief that no wrong is being done in the use of corporal punishment to infuse discipline..however psychologist and psychiatrist agrees that a parents right. to discipline does not extend or weoverreach in ways can cause long te physical and physchplogical damage.to the latter i agree

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  • @ Bush Tea

    Whereas our central occupation is to unceasingly deal with the matter that Bullen Robert Ross is a devout racist, we are inclined to also disagree with you on this matter because they are intricately connected. These days it seems we have diverged on a few issues relating to the bible. Respectfully! And that is alright with us.

    But to talk in an enlighten age about beating people, especially our children, harkens back to the days of slavery. We don’t care what you or your bible think the consequences for not brtalizing children are or have been, this is wrong! We have met children who are 80 years old and adults who are 12 years old. For whom does the rod beckon? This irrational desire to obey a book filled with lies is anti-developments at best, at worse …………

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  • @ Pacha
    First of all, let Bushie be bold enough to advise you that your spat with Ross does not become you…. You are making Ross look like a martyr…..
    …you would do well to take David’s advice and let it rest….

    That said, where do you associate corporal punishment with such concepts as “brutalizing” …or “beating”?
    You are much too enlightened to allow that childish debating trick of introducing extremes to make an argument.
    ANY deliberate brutalizing, or beating-up of ANYONE is clear and simple assault – and the law CLEARLY deals with such.

    Bushie (and other intelligent people who support corporal punishment) are speaking of painful admonishments, administered by persons who LOVE and CARE DEEPLY about the subject of such treatment, which is designed and intended to redirect their BEHAVIORS in order to guide them into a better future.

    Parents, family members and teachers easily come to mind as some persons well suited to administer LOVING corrections in the form of corporal punishment.

    Rebutting such a position by introducing some idiots who commit hateful criminal offenses by brutalizing individuals (that they must surely HATE) is not worthy of a response from Bushie….

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  • PLANTATION DEEDS FROM 1926 TO 2014 , MASSIVE FRAUD ,LAND TAX BILLS AND NO DEEDS OF BARBADOS, BLPand DLP=Massive Fruad

    We have a Right to direct , instruct,rear, bring up,correct nurture,our Heirs as we see fit, Lawful Rights .
    Legal words of crime. spank , whip, slap, hit, beat,assault ,words of crime and charges which the police will use to take you before the courts.

    Those legal words will deal doing some thing for no reason of correction. It can be used for you are vex or mad , out of control , being a bully, or a crook while committing a crime,

    Word like Domestic violence also dealing with the People of a Nation against the Government as in riots , burning, flipping cars and nothing to deal with pvt family matters.

    Everyone want to behave like Americans , over 2 million locked up , some for nothing .,

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  • The Cops here in America continually reinforced the idea to parents, that you can beat your kids but do not leave any marks. I think that’s the biggest concern regarding
    corporal-punishment here in America. Because once you leave marks on a child, it forced what the state calls mandated reporters to take action on be haft of the child, even those the parents or guardian motives may have been well intended. Mandated reporters are people who works in the social services field such: police, nurses, doctors, daycare- provider etc.

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  • Mahogany Coconut:

    The world is embraced by too many people who tend to rely too much on feelings. You seem to feel that the Black people’s problem with corporal punishment is coming from the actions of the white slave master and the Bible. Your argument also suggests that there are no acts of corporal punishment in the white man’s world and your good example for that is the Unite States of America.

    But, what has me is how you could leap frog over a sadistic practice by the white man, that of beating to near death another human being. But make a strong argument for the practice being cemented in to the psyche of the children of the slaves who received the sadistic punishment. To go on to boldly state that all black people shall practice corporal punishment because of slavery, completely ignores the still sadistic white man who has found various ways and means of instigating emotional, psychological and physical pain to all who comes within his reach.

    What we should be discussing here is the ways in which we as human beings can get the sadistic vileness out of our economic masters the white man. If you want prove that their sadism is still much alive; check out the fall out from the actions of any branch of American or European armed forces. Do not forget the French and Rwanda!!

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  • Bushie:

    I concur with your position.

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  • @ Bush Tea
    There is no one in heaven, hell or on earth that has the ability to stop us from saying that Bullen Robert Ross defends organizations that practice rampant homosexuality. An agape practice which places young boys and girls at peril every minute of every day.

    Unlike you Bushie, we will never coward by a misguided bajan notion that anything is either below or above us. We are everywhere and if it means joining forces with the Prince of Darkness, Himself, to expose bulling and the staunt supporters of it here, it shall be done. If not here elsewhere. We own several websites ourselves. Especially when children are and have been at risk.

    Bushie you of all people should know that Bullen Robert Ross and his ilk are not praticularly interested in individual rights. They want to elevate buggery as the next frontier of imperialism. So racism, poverty, classism and all the other ills must take a back seat to bulling. Oh no!

    It is not Bullen Robert Ross who is any martyr. This bugger does not even support that concept. Furthermore, if there are to be any martyrs they must the hundreds of millions of children sacrificed on the alter of agape and other Greco-Roman sexual norms.

    This propensity of the Bajan to recoil at the first instance of a war, any war, is the primary causal reason for the people who Bullen Robert Ross represents to think that they could forever subdue a majority through the weak mentality implicit in your well-intentioned but misguided suggestion to us. We have declared an all out war on Bullen Robert Ross. To this there SHALL be no end.

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  • Mahogany Coconut Group

    @ Lemuel
    Mahogany Coconut Stated:
    “There is a rising school of thought, which suggests that our addiction to corporal punishment is an after effect of the beatings we received at the hands of the slave master; that our entire history is based on violence and that corporal punishment is a psychological left over or is it carry over, from the slave days. The MCG finds this position to be quite viable and we go as far as to suggest, that much of how we see ourselves at present, may very well be the after effects of slavery , in several forms but we digress.

    MCG finds the position”viable” . As for turning to America to substantiate our position,we merely stated that the mothers/parents would not get away with such brutality directed toward their children. It cannot be seriously denied that the psychological residue of slavery remains . MCG welcomes your comments. However, MCG does not support any form of physical , sexual , verbal and or psychological abuse against children, women and the elderly. Beating children with any object including hands is a form of brutality.

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  • Pachamama/Negroman likes them young, but only boys

    we will be back

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  • This is an ongoing war between sociologist and parents having to deal with parental rights where parents remains adamant in the belief that no wrong is being done in the use of corporal punishment to infuse discipline..however psychologist and psychiatrist agrees that a parents right. to discipline does not extend or overreach in ways that can cause long term physical and psychological damage.to the child …….to the latter i agree.
    the laws that are being put in place serves not only to protect the child .but also to protect parents and out of control disciplinarians like the BT’s who childhood mostly likely was dominated by parents mostly likely the father who out of ignorance stood on a firm belief ..that withholding the rod ,the child might become spoiled and rotten…..nevertheless as most have witnessed on this blog,,,that was a false premises by his parents and an assumption which has been proven to be wrong given the explosive and contradictory nature of one BT, and an unapologetic bully
    the fact is that without such laws. the adults who were brought up in homes with strict disciplinarians would misused and abuse their authority in the very same manner of their parents,,,,

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  • “Bushie (and other intelligent people who support corporal punishment) are speaking of painful admonishments, administered by persons who LOVE and CARE DEEPLY about the subject of such treatment, which is designed and intended to redirect their BEHAVIORS in order to guide them into a better future.’

    Bushie why don’t you stop opening your caca hole. Those are the very words of a spousal abuser and those who are into S&M. Resorting to physical violence against another human being especially a minor is a violation of basic human rights. You cannot beat someone into loving you nor force them to do the right thing. Physical violence should be only applied in self defence.

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  • @islandgal246,

    You need to teach Bushie that the only licks you should administer to someone you love is the ones you use on a lollipop or ice cream cone.

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  • island gal..i will bet YOU that nine times out of ten,,,the word LOVE was almost never whispered or said out loud in their homes,,,those parents understanding or (misunderstanding) of LOVE was built out of pure conjecture that the parent had a right to discipline a child by any means necessary,,,,,, nothing to do with LOVE,,but rather an authoritative approach which was introduce to them by their parents who themselves where guided and discipline by the rod, hence the fall out of all kinds of abuse domestic you name it has reached record levels impacting both older parents who are now being abuse by their children and gran children( who for lack )of not knowing better is now reaping the seeds of ignorance .and subjecting their elders to the same form of abuse a monster called Parental discipline by rod,

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  • There seems to be an expectation that we could be scared into silence. Our central argument has been and will continue to be that Bullen Robert Ross supports an organization whose tenets include having sex with young boys, for over 2000 years. This racism and sexual perversion is well represnted in the mouthings of Bullen Robert Ross. These truims will continue to ring in the ears of all and sundry here and elswhere. No amount of ‘mishandling’ will stop us. And Bullen Robert Ross should known this.

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  • Hants …Bushie have a lot to learn that licking the lollipop is so much bettter and enoyable.

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  • david the cat is out the bag and it is your fault ,i told you so ,,,,,,meow……..

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  • Pacha you have really stopped taking your meds. Please go straight to Black rock for your shots. You are rambling and are too concerned with others peoples backside for my liking.

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  • This debate I don’t think is new anywhere. It lies at the root of familial and school relationships and is certainly not unique to Barbados. I don’t see, therefore, how it can possibly have anything to do with slavery.

    As a kid I saw school friends boxed down the length of a classroom by a teacher and had similar things myself.

    My mother once thrashed me.

    As a parent, yes I have slapped my kids when I thought it appropriate.

    The phrase ‘traditional values’ seems to include ‘discipline’ which is treated as co- extensive with corporal punishment. It’s one of the reasons I am suspicious of it. I cannot accept that in any family fear should lie at the root of its structure. A loving home, however, does not necessarily exclude a measure of personal responsibility in all its members. My experience is that IF you are going to belt a kid you have to make him (and what of her?) understand why it’s happening so that the kid doesn’t feel that you are being capricious or cruel. I am also suspicious of the ‘spare the rod’ maxim for this reason. The balance between authority and love is a precarious one, and the latter certainly includes the duty to listen – something which the authoritarians seem to find very difficult.

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  • It is nothing short of amazing to Bushie how simplistic so many on BU are about the complexities of life on our earth. The kind of logic that says:
    – “violence is bad so we should never use violence”
    – “exams are stressful, so the 11+ exam should be abolished”
    – “Bullying is bad – it should not happen”

    These are the positions of simpletons.

    Our world is a complex mix of the beautiful, the ugly, the good, the bad, the fair, the unfair, the peaceful, the violent……the .’everything’.
    ….and these all work TOGETHER to create an environment that is PERFECTLY designed to accomplish the objective for which our world was DESIGNED.

    You may not ‘like’ snakes, or flies, or sharks or lightning…..but these ALL serve VITAL roles in making our world the place that it is.

    Similarly, you may not ‘like’ the 11+, but it serves a key role in providing TRANSPARENCY in allocating places in our schools; in preparing children for the academic aspect of their future educational life; in developing intensive study habits and goal setting; in learning to deal with disappointment and competition – and many other roles….

    You may not like bullies, ….but how the hell else will some of our children EVER learn to deal with such a REALITY as bullying, con-men, and intimidation? ….after they become Policemen, Lawyers, Prime Ministers and judges?

    ….and if a parent REALLY care about their child – and that child is bent on destroying its future by developing bad habits and bad attitudes – and if the obvious tactics such as scolding, etc are not working……only a JACKASS parent would then decide that since they don’t ‘like’ corporal punishment, that child will have to continue in its errant ways…..

    A wise and caring parent would put some licks in that child’s ass….even if in the process it hurt the parent MANY times more than it hurt the child….in an effort to PROTECT the child’s future success.

    Shiite man! …..how much simpler can it be….?

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  • Sunshine Sunny Shine

    Each society is built on the fundamental principles of a perceived order and what constitutes right and wrong. In each society, the use of force to instill a behavioral change might not necessarily be the method of another society to bring about that change. One society might be built on the premise that corporal punishment could be a means to ending defiant behaviour whereas a next may employ coercion and other alternative means rather than flagellation to achieve an outcome that is desirable and acceptable. The application in the methods used may differ and can be adjudicated upon the degree of force applied or the delivery of the alternative method of punishment. However what is important is the outcome or end result of the measure used. Did it achieve its purpose? Is the form of punishment having a negative effect upon the recipient? is the form of punishment suited to the offending act? Has the recipient learnt from the experience of the act and the punishment meted not to ever do it again? Was the administration of the punishment done in a way that denotes love and concern or was it blatantly administered in a bout of vexatious angry outbursts.

    The action taken by this mother to discipline her child does not justify the means used to correct her child. The corrective approach move from punishment meted for a wrong act to downright humiliation of the child, excessive force used in the punishment of that child, and profanity in seeking to point out to the child the wrong of what the child thought was a right.

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  • @ SSS

    “The action taken by this mother to discipline her child does not justify the means used to correct her child”
    +++++++++++++++
    Perhaps you are correct. …….In which case, the mother is guilty of assault and should be charged and tried.
    The problem with such issues is that the FACTS tend to be unknown to outsiders who may wish to judge.
    You are obviously a bright, intelligent and creative woman who could conceive of 1000 ways to discipline, incentivize and correct a difficult child…..
    …can we judge ac by the same standards? What should she do then….call you?
    …a parent has to do what works best for them…..and neither you or Bushie are in ANY position to judge them.

    The Law of the land should outline what abuse is, and deal with abusers. However, if that child turns out to be a top performer (as has happened to many of us who were so disciplined) it makes a mockery of your analysis…..

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  • BT

    In a sense I agree….but isn’t that a recipe for inertia in the face of evil on the ground that it’s all part of the subplot?

    “A parent has to do what works best for them” – do you mean for the parent or the child? Either way, anything goes then and both determined by the subjective assessment of the parent.

    Why is “I will lash you” or “I will give you lashes” acceptable as a standard response to perceived ‘naughtiness’ even if of the ‘Give me attention’ kind?

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  • And then again you say, as many do, ‘It’s that simple”. But nothing is simple. You mention the 11+ which I broadly support. But then a child’s future is made to depend (to an extent) on the fortunes of performance in a morning. Can that be right – inevitably – because it’s “that simple”?

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  • @Bush Tea

    You may well be correct or the other person, who knows. In you comment above you used examples of human behaviour and still you tossed in the 11+? One is a human condition moulded by the environment and the other a decision – one of many – which influences the environment. These are things which ordinary humans don’t understand.

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  • Sunshine Sunny Shine

    @Tea Bush

    As I said the end result in the corrective procedure is what matters most. If the application of flogging, humiliation, profanity and the excessive force used in this act achieves the outcome that it was intended to achieve than the mother has done what she thought was best and thus would have won this battle. The child thus becomes a living example of a positive from an actions meted by a mother that can easily be misconstrued as a negative. The end result of the mother’s actions has achieved its intended purpose. But you have made one fundamental error in your statement below, when you try to attribute or marry future success of this child to the flogging received for her actions

    Tea Bush said

    “However, if that child turns out to be a top performer (as has happened to many of us who were so disciplined) it makes a mockery of your analysis….”.

    The future of this child’s development will not be base on this one time flogging but the support by which she gets in the next coming years to come. Her turn out rather positive or negative will be decided upon the many influential bridges she will have to cross. This beating is not the stand alone in this child’s development. There are too many variables that will play out in this child’s life for any of us to attribute a one time flogging or other floggings as the impetus that drove this child to success.

    You are too intelligent a man Tea Bush to summate the outcome of any child’s future on a disciplinary procedure. What about all of those who were flogged and did not turn out like you. What about me who was never flogged but educationally wise did very well for myself but is defiant as i am a bitch. What about all those who were flogged, achieve academically but are nursing pooch exploration endeavours at Dodds because their greed led them to commit acts for which the law punishes them with Dodds time for their crimes, What about those who rose to the highest levels of success got their asses cut for engaging in perverted acts but went on to become the biggest lesbians, homosexuals and perverts you can think about. What did the ass cutting do that did not prevent them from repeating those acts again? Where in their lives can you see the positives of the flog. Time in all cases is thicker than the twine that cuts the ass. A parent may raise the child but the entire village influences it.

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  • There are 19 states in United States, where teachers can still spank kids in school. Sounds rather surprising in the year 2014 right?

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  • Sunshine Sunny Shine

    Tea Bush said

    …can we judge ac by the same standards? What should she do then….call you?

    The sCUN|T| AC at this present moment needs her ass are pulverized. She obviously have not received any beatings and what ever talks her parents had with her seems to have transformed her into a total Johnny. There are people, don’t matter what you do them, you cannot remove the idiot from them. AC is a special case of stupid.

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  • SSS

    Corporal – punishment is wrong as a teaching strategy to incalcate any form of learning. There are many innovative strategies in Behavior – Therapy today, which can achieve the same results of corporal – punishment of yesteryear.

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  • ross once again you have missed the point …..slavery and discipline are blood brothers,,,, discipline has been transformed in the minds of black as a necessary tool to gain respect ,, which blacks were subjected to by their slave masters and which blacks have relied on in similar fashion in keeping there household in tact,,under the guise of Discipline,,,, look there are many forces at play here and it all points to how blacks were treated during slavery and which blacks have adopted and adapted these are facts,,,,,dominance and abuse were the major factors during slavery that kept blacks in line,,,,,although blacks reacted negatively to such treatments during slavery,,these factors were instilled in their minds as a necessary tool “To control” or to serve in ways to gain respect ,,,no where in history would you read that during slavery in early development of childhood that blacks were dominant in instilling and cultivating fearby use of force …history would show that slavery was the first school or institution ;for blacks where the seeds of dominance and fear were planted and cultivated ,, blacks out of ignorance have rationalized and have convinced themselves for generations that this form of abuse is o,k, as it serves a necessary tool to gain respect and control using the same thought process which the slave master used over them to control their household,,,BT can attest to that,,just read his psychological babble as he constantly puts his foot in his mouth….while trying his uttermost best to bully others into his archaic and insane belief handed down to him by his slave masters,,,

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  • Sunshine Sunny Shine

    Jesus H Christ AC

    I cant believe that you wrote that. What the hell. You changing pumpkin. Finally something worth reading. Any how expand some more on the alternative forms of punishment that are beneficial and positive that do not instill a sense of defiance when applied. If you can do that balancing act I promise never again to refer to as a CUNT>

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  • Sunshine Sunny Shine

    @Dompey

    And your point is to tell me what. Did you read what i wrote. I am neither for nor against. I am interested in the end result of what ever form of punishment is applied. If the end result does not achieve or justify the means than it is flawed. The means must justify the end and the end must justify the means. The corrective measure is just the application and that can be changed to suit the stimulus for the desire effect it is intended to achieve.

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  • As a primary school teacher I realised that the seating arrangements contributed to bad classroom management. I read that the a horse shoe arrangement was better in that there is eye contact with both students and teacher. I tried it and most of the problems disappeared. There was no need to inflict corporal punishment. I also had easy access to all the students since there were no more “front bench” and “back bench”. I stopped teaching in 1979/80. So this would have been 30 years ago.

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  • ac

    How did your forbears discipline their children in Ife in 1500?

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  • @ SSS
    In summary, you are saying that this matter is too complex to be judged by any one persons’ standards.
    ….which is Bushie’s ‘simple’ point. DO NOT JUDGE the corporal punishment users unless you have walked in their shoes…..

    Obviously, with all the high level training and PAY that modern teachers enjoy, if any of them need to resort to corporal punishment that is a clear sign that either the system of preparing them is flawed, or the children are MUCH WORSE than we think…..

    @ David
    The 11+ is one of those things that many persons dislike. The point is that nowhere is it written that life was to be fair and equitable. Many a child’s future is blown simply because their parents divorce, because the father refuse to work, because the mother is an idiot…..or simply because they contract a serious ailment….or had an accident…

    The 11+ is just another one of life’s challenges…..

    LOL…and however much Peter Wickham rails against it, he could never have gone to HC….. 🙂
    …too damn foolish.

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  • Pachamama should not be around children

    … at least not unsupervised.

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  • Children should not be left alone with Pachamama

    Not unless another, non-paedo adult is also present.

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  • We see that the racist, bugger, Roman Catholics child exploiter defender in the person of Bullen Robert Ross is at it again with her mulitiple personalities. Gallop on!

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  • Ross..to answer your question..with the same ignorance and lack of knoweldge that they had acquried.not forgetting that there was a system in place which condone such behaviour.fortunately we. have come full circle and no longer accept those principals as norm.except we have a few stragglers like bush tea and yourself who continues to endorse a past which was built on torture and whose socio-abnormalities is reeking havoc in many black homes and countries today

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  • the best form of discipline is to deny a child what that child holds true and dearest to themselves,,, removing and discontinuing special privileges like having fun evenings with friends,,not being able to participate in special events at school or social settings,,,that hurts ,, hurts more than lashes,,,,,as kids enjoy the fun of laughter and participation,,well except for in today’s society ,,where technology gadgets are the norm..however the same principle would apply,,

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  • St George's Dragon

    But surely the Bible got it right with:
    “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
    That’s irony, by the way.

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  • St George's Dragon

    Or alternatively:
    “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.”
    I suppose that’s not meant literally, though, unlike the Biblical strictures about homosexuality.
    Just to confirm, that’s irony again.

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  • in todays society how would one categorized such laws.it is hard truly hard to believe or imagine that people of such barbaric nature once had such control and power over peoples lives, ,,,,,by nature were the architects and engineers of horror,,,,

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  • ac

    Acquired from whom in 1500? You mean the Olu of Ife was already a eunuch? And the Oba of Benin? You are suffering terminal illness from the reductionist fallacy.

    St George

    Don’t be silly. It was all acquired from SLAVERY in Egypt….oh but hang on…err…weren’t the Egyptians….err…. well, err…well not white?????

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  • Sunshine Sunny Shine

    You cannot ascribe a punishment that you feel is in the betterment of the child because the child may respond to that punishment with resistance or indifference which can effect their lives negatively. It does not matter what form of punish you adminster. The effect of the punishment and the ability of the child to understand the punishment meted without having any negative effects towards repurcussions is dependent on the constitution of the child. Flogging could motivate towards a positive to not do or a negative to continue to do with impunity. Taking away priviledges can motivate towards a positive to not do or a negative to continue to do with increase degrees of resistance. What is important is the outcome of the punishment because it does not matter what form of punishment is applied. It all depends on the child.

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  • they are no positive sides to flogging..first it is physical abuse meted out to to a minor,,,an more often than not an extreme form of punishment both physical and mental which can be painful when administered to a defenseless child ,,,,,,,there are no compromises in flogging the long term effects both physical and mental are negatives,,,,,,,the short term effect serves no real purpose as the child would at some point and time resort to other forms of misconduct in similar fashion ,,,, what is necessary is for adults to rethink their methodology and use methods of rewarding a child in instances where the child does good where a lesson can be taught and learned by the child while instilling a habit of long term positives in the child rather that instilling.. retribution …hostility ..anger and violence which the child would act upon or use as corrective measures in adult years…., in order for any form of violence to be stamped out it must be uprooted in the childhoods years starting in the homes with adults using positive forms or less painful methods of corrective measures to discipline the child,,, there must be a zero tolerance for any form of abuse which can lead to long term damage both physical and psychological on a society,,,,

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  • ross ..i will ignore .stick to your archaic ideologies of barbarism and racism…..if it makes u happy…..adios amigo,,,,may the force be with you…

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  • I am tired of this supermarket psychology being practiced on this blog. When a child is going in the way of wrong or badness, do you think all of this holding hand and pleading shall get the message home about the need to walk in the right road. How are all of you going to get these young people to hear you when you are beneath all this verbiage that is being recommended here.

    This is like women looking for effeminate men and then expecting a lion to come running out the house to defend them when something happens.

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  • @Lemuel

    It is not a perfect world yet we debate in absolutes.

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  • Lemmie since when you feel that wunna menz could tackle a lion? LOLL When wunna could bear child pain at birth then we could talk. Listen women know that most of wunna menz are COWARDS. Who do yuh think was behind yuh pushing yuh towards de lion? If we wasn’t behind wunna pushing wunna would have been outta de house hollering and embarassing we. De saying behind every brave man is a braver woman is sooo true.

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  • PS Lemmie doan let a little pussy cat frighten yuh..:-)

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  • @ SSS
    Bushie is impressed.
    You have understanding beyond your claimed years.

    @ Dragon
    What the hell do you thing the current death row is all about? When children turn out to be beyond their parents control, they ARE brought to the gate at Dodds and the ‘elders’ sentence their asses to death and the MEN put them to death….

    Our problem is that we have no MEN….just effeminate males like Ross and Peter Wickham, who don’t have the required BALLS to do what is in the overall society’s interests…

    So the unruly bad boy become increasingly brave – and soon they will start executing anyone brave enough to stand up for justice and truth…as they create THEIR kind of society….
    ….oh wait….that started already nuh….?!!!

    Brass bowls!!!

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  • Island:

    I hear you.

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  • wait as long as i have being living there have always been prison. and in those prison walls dwells the innocent as well as the guilty,,,there are various forms of crime and if flogging as is being touted was indeed a special kind of deterrent ,,then the adult population that is a large percentage of the prison populace would be all but nonexistence,,,,mostly in part that a significant amount of the adult population was raised in homes where flogging was used as a tool as punishment,,,,, furthermore the same disciplinary of flogging can be a attributed as to why the prison population of youth and adults contain to expand,,,,,mainly in part to what these inmates had experience in childhood as corrective measure which have taught them that extreme forced is necessary to gain a measure of control,,,,hence we have a percentage of a population who can not differentiate between negative and positive corrective methods and can only rely and resort to seeking resolve in the manner of way it was meted out to them….,,,,..

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  • @ ac
    Where you went to school?

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  • advocating abuse in any form displays a mental disorder it does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out.however it would,nt be far fetched to conclude that a kunckelhead like bush tea have had too many knocks up against his head which have left him completly deranged a..shole.

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  • Oh! I missed the days when the detectives of the CID, used to filled in where parents used to failed. Listen! I rode alone with the police when their took the bad boys from District A Police Station, to Central Police Station lockup. Now, with that being said, I have to ask this question though: where are the modern day, Dirty Harry, Track-Suit – Top, Rat – Brown, Invader- Bowen, Lion-man etc, theseen did the serious beating back in the day.

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  • anyone who says that when being floggedas a child they fiest reaction wasrr love and appreeciation for those who did the flogging is a bold faced liar..now this punishment which is supposed to instill moral values has planted the seeds of hate and violence in the early stages of a child development.then we wonder how come we are such a violent society..behaviours can be taught and learned and the earlier they are instilled in the mind the harder they become to remove fear and violence amongst the hardest..a society built on positive starting within the home and practicing and planting seeds of peaceful resolve in the long term would beneift all.we all be in sync for better and not having to look over our shouders and taking steps in avoiding the culture of bushtea from invading our homes

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  • @ac

    And in the USA where flogging is not used as a disciplinary option? It is all love isn’t it?

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  • david the point here i am making is that positive behaviour instiled in early child development is crucial to how a society. is built…and love being an important and vital component…america is a melting pot of many races and cultures and there is where you would find your answer as to why ..violence and anti social behaviour which can be traced to differening forms of discipline used in households

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  • @ David
    We have thanked you in the past for your stirling contribution to Bajan society through your outstanding work with BU.

    BU has been an education in multiple ways….Indeed, before BU, the bushman would NEVER have even contemplated that someone as dense as ac could possible exists – and actually operate among us – appearing to be a ‘normal’ person…
    …..It is damn frightening yuh, and it bodes ill for our future. 😦

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  • pieceuhderockyeahright

    “Bring up a child in the way that he should go and when he is old he shall not depart from it…”

    Raising a child is not an exact science, what combination of kind words, denials of privileges, hard slaps, ear pinches, go to your room, public embarrassments, where you was when i cum fuh you at school dis evening….you is a man ketch de bus and walk home den”, some warm ass liks in front the internet screen for a 12 year old woman that looking fuh sex and oan know bout pregnancy, STDs and AIDS and gine bring a chile to the house of a woman struggling to stand alive in these hard economic times…

    We are all rights and we are all wrong, given varying circumstances but which of you can definitively say that for many of the beatings and floggings, it was done to abuse you or it was done out of love?

    What is the greater abuse/sin, this mother beating the “woman” out of the chile whose mout she feeding, whose back she clothing, whose ass she housing? or the ole mens like me who giving her a $10 top up for a blow job or the middle age software programmers who giving all the youngsters Doom II, Cannon Fodder Hitman, Call of Duty and are desensitizing our innocents.

    Here we are concerned about flogging the child for talking to menses at the corner of the road when the software that we are buying for our children are bringing the same men into our homes, with its “info shares” name, address, phone number, “built in location shares” click on facebook and you see where the person texting you is” and “user interacts” where you can stay in Germany and see my old swibbly botsie in Bulbados.

    So the question remains not if we have to set rules and use what we know as deterrents but why have we stopped in the face of the evidence that the enemy to all that we believe to be important, is now within our gates..

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  • pieceuhderockyeahright

    is bringing not are bringing, de ole man does mek alotta mistakes nowadays

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  • what bodes ill for our past.. present and future is that nincompoops of the bush tea generation are still having a “says so” in shaping the future of society..even though the methods and principles they have used have failed and have produced a generation of degenerates and hatefilled monsters..so what,s wrong with admitting the failures..and what so wrong with trying other alternatives are we so stiffnecked and stubborn rather than seek change continue on the same deadly path of destructions..the jury has spoken we are guilty of creating a society out of fear and violence a learned and repetive behaviour which started in early childhood and passed on from generation to generation..make no mistake it can only get worse unless all admit the mistakes made

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  • Some of you need to attack the issues especially when tackling soft issues where there is no blueprint. It is the night of ignorance to discuss such issues in absolutes.

    On Saturday, 10 May 2014, Barbados Underground wrote:

    >

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  • pieceuhderockyeahright

    Yes AC let us put out the old elephants to die as in Chinua Achebe and the Orwellian heroes.

    So if i follow your logic, we are to read and laud the books of the old fogies but as to the actual writers, some of whom still (unfortunately) live nincompoops like the Bush tians and PUDRYR, we are to be confined to the shadows, having passes our sell by date and “forever hereafter hold our piece”

    But softly, I beg you softly, wait yet awhile and we shall soon be cannon fodder, and all this shall be yours, inheritors that you be who, unlike us, have found what Juan Ponce de León could not, and will live forever young.

    All is vanity and vexation of the spirit…

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  • absolute david..what absolute..no kido..this is an absolute reality .with lessons which one can learn from..with experience being the principal teacher .

    pdyr ..yes my man..no hard feelings..your generation took the hand book you were given.never asking or questioing its source and viabilty..belive u me i also depended on its guidance..but do i know better now…hell yes and have moved away making room for those withmore umderstanding in how to

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  • LOL ac

    “I will ignore”…..you answer a question with a jibe – not an argument sunshine. But then, you’re there to amuse aren’t you? Brilliant characterization though.

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  • ross..in the meanwhile continue to wallow. in your ignorance in defense of racist attitudes and let ac continue to wallow in her ignorance indefense of rebuilding a society for better…now mr lawyer don,t waste time on ac. stay the course a good lawyer is not easily distracted

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  • Sunshine Sunny Shine

    The issue of the administration of any form of punishment is complex. The arguements for and against corporal punishment has its merits and demerits. I base my arguments not on the punishment but on the outcome of that punishment because rather that punishment effects the child negatively or positively is dependent on the child. Its like arguing that white children are better than black children or Trinidadians are more intelligent than Barbadians. All arguments are built on a premise that must be proven.

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  • Sunshine Sunny Shine

    Lemuel
    This is a blog. Discussion on here is not base on expert opinion . What do you expect. Your description of supermarket psychology is crap.

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  • Sunshine Sunny Shine

    Boo Boo AC

    Have not read your contributions yet. Read one or two. If they are balance filled with sense and if you have brought forth the positives associated with alternative forms of punishment that are beneficial to children, I will, as i have said, stop call you a cunt. You notice I have not been on here for a few days. Been busy hon. So will read your contributions later. If they are balance and well thought out I will as promise pay you respect. But if you are still talking cunt…I will tear you a new pooch hole.

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  • another one of BT quotable quotes which he no less found in the Bilble to verify and expanded his ideology and ridiculous theory of flogging……Spare not the rod,,,,,,,,, by now The outspoken dictator should be aware of the many symbolic referance which has been used in the bible as pertaining to every day life that mankind could related in order to make a point,,,,,,e,g seed,,,,,, ten virgins,,,,,,die by the sword,,,,,,fishers of men …… by your fruit,,,,,,,, eye for an eye,,,,,taking such symbol’s and in the context there were given as an example cannot be taken literally,,,,, there are many ways to discipline and BT and his followers would be better off if the first understand the phrases and the symbolic meaning behind them,,, here is one of jesus quotable quotes,,,,,,now BT here is something for you to chew on..maybe u can call dirty ole man PDYR to help u chew on……..A little child shall lead them……symbolic or factuallll

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  • On this blessed MOTHERS DAY..give love and hugs..avoid using recipes of disasters …tongue lashes and symbols to cause pain and hurt..instead use symbols of love..kindness..patience and understanding…rewarding and fruitful….HAPPY MOTHERS DAY

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  • Ac:

    You need to send some love to SSS!!

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  • pieceuhderockyeahright

    yes Lemuel to SSS and to the dirty ole man PUDRYR lol…

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  • Piece:

    SSS needs to send love especially to you!!

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  • Sunshine Sunny Shine

    Piece got my love
    Lemuel Got my love
    AC has been improving her writing. Not been seeing so much onesided written fews of lately though she tends go off on tantrum of irrevelancy. But Ok…All my love to my BOO AC…

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  • ask david he can cofirm it,s not about ac..stick to the topic..and for those who expect love the principal is in the giving.for what does it profit mankind to gain the whole world and lose his own soul..

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  • Is it therefore safe to conclude that those children who were never flogged all became deviants and only those who were flogged walked the straight and narrow ?

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  • It might be safer to say that those who initiated and intrduce the use of the whip to subdue and subject are the deviants and most knows who they are and when it first started .the stories are well recorded in history .what seems to have escape many blacks who relies on such a inhumane form of punishment is. the fact that there was a time in history. when their fore parents under law had the barbaric punishment administrated..if only for that reasons intelligent blacks wanting not to engaged in slave master practices should ….let

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