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David Cameron, Prime Minister of Great Britain

In the harsh economic times prevailing there is an understandable focus on the need to make every dollar count. In an environment where there is the perception of rising crime, demon possessed children and groups labelled evil because they dare to question the cost benefit of a government delegation journeying Down Under; should we not encourage equal focus on the direction the moral campus of Barbados is pointing? Given the agenda of this government to build out a society first and foremost, a holistic concern about the kind of society we want to build should be par for the course. Why therefore do we allow the narrative to be led mostly by economic considerations?

A benefit to Prime Minister Fruendel Stuart networking with his Commonwealth colleagues last week is that he heard from British Prime Minister David Cameron first hand, if Barbados expects to get financial aid from Britain in the near future – discrimination against homosexuals will have to cease. To quote theGuardian: Britain has threatened countries that ban homosexuality with losing aid payments unless they reform, David Cameron has said. But he conceded that “deep prejudices” in some countries meant the problem would persist for years. In Barbados we are known to be tolerant of homosexuals although our laws say otherwise.

It is fair to say given the leadership position of Great Britain in the world’s leading financial institutions that in the not too distant future lending agencies like the International Monetary Fund, Inter-american Development Bank and World Bank will be adopting a similar position. Other countries will obviously follow Great Britain which will affect bilateral arrangements with those countries.

Over the years the homosexual debate has moved from the affected parties being thought to be afflicted by genetic flaws to a civil rights issue. Despite how some would want to describe individuals who speak out against the homosexual lifestyle or what is aesthetically referred to as an alternative lifestyle, the world remains divided on the issue. In the land of the free the battle continue to rage  between the Gay Movement and the Courts. What makes the issue more complex is that the Church, Christians especially, remain divided on the issue.    

In the absence of conclusive studies homosexual behaviour must clearly be identified as a lifestyle. The question raised is what next?  Bottomline this is not a Black or White issue as some social commentators would make out. It speaks to how as small societies especially we have weaved a value systems over time upon which we have raised our families.

BU read an article recently titled Gays—No Easy Answers; A Christian Response . After reading the article non Christians are forced to ask the question – why would God create a homosexual? In other words, why did God create murderers or for that matter human beings with all the imperfections which we see manifested everyday. Frankly the article has created more questions than answers.

The threat by Prime Minister David Cameron – no doubt other so called first world countries will follow – means that the financial dependent countries of the world will have no choice but to fall in line. Nothing else matters.


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364 responses to “Accept Homosexuality Or Else”


  1. No-one has said “accept homosexuals or else”.

    But if we’re going to disapprove, we should at least try not to be backward assholes about it.

    I’ve always thought that homophobic laws stood in violation of the thoughtful, moderate Barbadian character. We can disapprove without taking refuge in small-minded, counterfactual betrayal of human rights.


  2. @TheDoc

    Many continue to question if this is a human rights issue at all.

    If there is no empirical evidence to support genetic shortcomings why not treat homosexuality as a malady which has to be attended?

    What about all those people who live the alternative lifestyle because they want to and not because it is driven by genetics?

    The bottomline is that it will not matter now away way.

    Poor countries that want aid will have not choice but to comply and deal with whatever prejudices exist.

  3. Caswell Franklyn Avatar
    Caswell Franklyn

    Britain has always been one of the biggest hypocrites through out history. They trade with Saudi Arabia going as far as paying bribes to people in that country to secure contracts. When they discovered the illegal dealings they refused to prosecute the wrongdoers because they needed the business. Saudi Arabia executes homosexuals for practicing, what Britain would like to call their human rights, yet we do not hear of any calls from Cameron about boycotts. It was the British who introduced homosexuality to Barbados and now they are bullying us to conform to their warped behaviour.


  4. @Casewell. “It was the British who introduced homosexuality to Barbados…..” Specifics please. When was this, name the parties, provide the political decision by Britain. Otherwise, we will have to assume that you made this up.


  5. Homosexuality (the attraction to the same gender) is never a choice…. people have a choice about what they do about it…

    So you can be homosexual and not engage in a homosexual life style i.e. remain celibate, so the choice isn’t if you are homosexual…. it just a choice as to if you have sex or not.

    Of all the people who I have talked to that have argued that homosexuality is a choice (i.e. that they can choose which gender they are attracted to) none of them have ever admitted to being attracted to their own gender, so they have never had to make a choice. You can only make a choice is you have two options open to you, so that might be a choice for the bisexuals, but homosexuality is not a choice.


  6. @Casewell. You may find this will assist you to answer my questions. Or based on your own anthropological research, you may decide that they are wrong.

    http://africanhistory.about.com/b/2006/11/07/homosexuality-as-part-of-pre-colonial-africa.htm

    Whatever. It merely means that we are faced with a present-day dilemma and we must decide, for the good of the country, how we will choose to act. My belief is that Prime Minister Cameron is not taking a pot shot at Barbados and it largely tolerant people and government, but rather at certain Arab and African nations that seek to impose draconian punishments (like death). However, do you think for one second that his electorate or Europe or Commonwealth countries like Australia, Canada and New Zeland would be satisfied to have him merely impose sanctions just for those Arab and African countries? It has to be broader and in keeping with United Kingdom laws.

    So, I believe that we can rest easy on the status quo as we have it – for now. But sooner or later, we in Barbados will be required to address the issue. Personally, I believe that we ought to deal with it now, as there is no doubt that our laws do prevent certain timerous elements of a whole section of international society from visiting our shores and leaving behind their foreign currency. As long as these visitors conduct themselves with the decorum and good taste that we would expect of them and as long as they obey our laws, I believe that the criminalization for their private and adult consensual acts are none of our business. In retaining the laws as they stand, we are cutting off our noses to spite our faces and giving in to the very religious lobby that is itself most guilty of the very acts they condemn and, moreover, of acts including children which they spend billions either covering up, or being forced by courts worldwide to pay in compensation.

    I rest.


  7. @ Caswell Franklyn
    “It was the British who introduced homosexuality to Barbados and now they are bullying us to conform to their warped behaviour.”

    while I cannot support your statement I will say it is noteworthy that the African/Caribbean countries where Europeans have a history of settlement there appears to be a prevalence of the practice e.g: South Africa, Zimbabwe, Zanzibar and Barbados


  8. Here is a website which shows bilateral interest by the UK. Now should we examine the human rights records of those countries…

    http://www.bilaterals.org/spip.php?article20307


  9. @ Amused I am very amused at your statement:

    “…My belief is that Prime Minister Cameron is not taking a pot shot at Barbados and it largely tolerant people and government, but rather at certain Arab and African nations that seek to impose draconian punishments (like death). However, do you think for one second that his electorate or Europe or Commonwealth countries like Australia, Canada and New Zeland would be satisfied to have him merely impose sanctions just for those Arab and African countries? It has to be broader and in keeping with United Kingdom laws…”

    Those very European and white commonwealth countries will help him enforce those sanctions. History has establish this to be a fact.


  10. Is it possible that if pro homosexual countries move ahead with hitching conditions to AID suggested by Cameron that this could force a split in the world?

    For example we know several African countries have splintered from the Anglican Church as a result.


  11. We shouldn’t treat it as a disease because there’s no evidence that it represents, from a secular perspective, inferior functioning.

    We don’t treat left-handedness as a disease any more either.

    I disagree with you that we don’t have a choice. We do.

    We can sullenly do the minimum that we are forced to do, refusing to even pay attention to available facts, giving up and ceding complete control over our destiny to others; or we can choose our own informed, ethical path and stand as a shining example to others in our position.

    Right now, we seem to be sliding along the first path, and angrily resisting any call that we do otherwise.

    In a situation where we are failing to deal appropriately with the actual diseases that are assailing us— diabetes, hypertension, HIV— and note, HIV in Barbados is predominantly heterosexually transmitted— why on earth would we seek to break from logical treatment of available evidence, in creating “diseases” where none exist?

    My problem with most anti-gay positions is that they often make no sense whatsoever.

    Bigotry will do that to one, I guess.

    This doesn’t mean that everyone has to agree with homosexual behaviour. But we do just fine in disagreeing with those who get married ten times without feeling the need to ban them by law, flout human rights principles, endanger our international status, and create imaginary diseases to support our disapproval.


  12. Amused, thanks for the link.

    I agree with you that secular society should be careful in heedlessly following the lead of religious institutions that have been clearly poor examples; but I do want to note that child abuse is not more common within the Church than outside it.

    The problem was not an unusually high incidence, but rather the devastatingly callous behaviour of Church leadership in sheltering molesters and Church image at the expense of children’s safety.

  13. William Skinner Avatar

    “It was the British who introduced homosexuality to Barbados and now they are bullying us to conform to their warped behaviour.”
    Caswell Franklyn

    Mr. Franklyn,
    Are you actually a trade union leader in Barbados ? Do you seriously expect any intelligent person would want to blame the British for “introducing” homosexuality to Barbados or anywhere else? I have family and very close friends , both male and female , who are homosexuals. Many productive and hardworking Barbadians are homosexuals. Am I to assume that their God-given rights are to be trampled simply because of their sexual preference ?
    I asked if you are actually a trade union leader because I would imagine that among your membership there would be gays. With your obvious bias against them , the question is whether you should be taking their dues because you apparently consider homosexuality to be “warped behaviour”.
    I am terribly disappointed that a citizen of your intelligence and obvious concern for matters concerning our island state, has taken such a position.


  14. Could not agree with you more Caswell.

  15. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ caswell:
    “When they discovered the illegal dealings they refused to prosecute the wrongdoers because they needed the business. Saudi Arabia executes homosexuals for practicing, what Britain would like to call their human rights, yet we do not hear of any calls from Cameron about boycotts.”

    Your statement clearly suggests that Britain is the queen in the art of double standards and hypocrisy. But it is from the “mother country” that Bajans have inherited this art of deception and subterfuge you so ardently observe and comment on it regularly. But remember most of these countries that Britain turns a blind eye to their homophobic and other basic human rights violations are oil rich or endowed with resources needed by the Western economies.

    Barbados has long lost its status as being a sparkling jewel in the crown of King sugar. We rely very heavily on Britain and its Western allies for the survival of our two main economic generators- tourism and other international business (FDI). On the other hand we can always tell Britain “to sod off and that we Bajans don’t need your advice about our laws and moreover, Mr. Cameron can go and put his mouth where the monkey stuff the nuts”. And then we will be independent and chant from the top of Mount Stinkeroo– “those fields and hills beyond recall are now our very own, “writing our name on history’s page while being strict guardians of our heritage, and firm craftsmen of our fate”.

    The same way we are about to change the law regarding automatic death sentencing for persons found guilty of murder we can simultaneously show our ability to shed our barbaric skin and remove the scales of intolerance and bigotry by reviewing the laws governing sexual acts between consenting adults. As it currently stands, the law does not cover sexual relations between two or more women. This is in itself discriminatory and goes against every human rights convention ratified by Barbados. Either adjust the law to make it a criminal offence applicable to both sexes and otherwise or remove the offending (in violation of human right conventions) legislation altogether. Any sexual acts involving force, violence, or threat to a person’s health and wellbeing can be dealt with under provisions set out in other criminal legislation.


  16. I say Kill all of the Homosexuals (mandatory death sentence) and kill of the Autistic people (like Chris Halsall), because they have a choice.

    I say Save all of the impulsive people, save all of the knee jerks, and save all of the bigots, because they do NOT have a choice.


  17. By and way, save all of the Christians too, for they have NO choice as well … no?

  18. Stephen. D. Stewart. Avatar
    Stephen. D. Stewart.

    Why does it matter what somebodies sexual preferences are..surely that is a private matter between the parties concerned ..and no concern of any body else ..consenting adults should be free to do as they wish…

  19. Stephen. D. Stewart. Avatar
    Stephen. D. Stewart.

    If Britain dont want to give its money to certain countries who do not comply with their requirements …Surely that is up to them..


  20. […] “countries that ban homosexuality with losing aid payments unless they reform”, Barbados Underground says that “the financial dependent countries of the world will have no choice but to fall in […]


  21. The Homosexual agenda worldwide, especially in America, Canada, and England, and other EU nations, is a devious, sinister,evil, Godless attack on ‘The Family’ unit, as Almighty God created it, it is far more wicked, than most realize, and it IS* the ultimate abomination, that will bring down God’s judgement on any society, especially when given official sanction by the State government!

    “In The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, author Edward Gibbon discusses several reasons for the great civilization’s demise, including the undermining of the dignity and sanctity of the home and the decay of religion.”

    “America has been compared to the Roman Empire in secular and religious ways. Regardless of its ultimate legacy, America is a civilization on the decline. A couple of centuries from now (or sooner), someone will write a book called The Decline and Fall of the American Empire.”

    “Historians will lament the loss of a once-great civilization that brought prosperity to the world and tried to make it safer for democracy. The glory that was the United States will lay in ruins, brought down not by terrorists but its own debauchery and complacency.”

    “Even before cultural decay was apparent, a man named Dr. Carle Zimmerman wrote a book called Family and Civilization in 1947. He reviewed the decline of multiple civilizations and empires and found eight patterns of domestic behavior that signaled the decline of a civilization.”

    [Update (9/14/05): For some reason the eight factors weren’t included in the original. Added today.]

    1) Marriage loses its sacredness; is frequently broken by divorce.

    2) Traditional meaning of the marriage ceremony is lost.

    3) Feminist movements abound.

    4) Increased public disrespect for parents and authority in general.

    5) Acceleration of juvenile delinquency, promiscuity, and rebellion.

    6) Refusal of people with traditional marriages to accept family responsibilities.

    7) Growing desire for and acceptance of adultery.

    Increasing interest in and spread of sexual perversions and sex-related crimes.

    Reads like today’s newspaper, doesn’t it?

    “Who can say when the decline of America began? We know that when constructive, productive, traditional values lose their dominance and perversion seeps into the mainstream, cultural rot has begun. For example, our children are lectured, in taxpayer-supported schools, that the deviancy of homosexuality is normal.”

    “In the midst of this chaos, homosexuals are now attempting to destroy the foundation of the family by rendering the concept of marriage meaningless.”

    “One of the greatest tragedies in our history isn’t slavery but the breakdown of the family, an indicator of a declining civilization. Anyone with the ability to reason knows the optimum environment to properly civilize a child, which takes tremendous sacrifice and effort, is a two-parent family.”

    “As the moral fiber of our society began to break down, the stigma of illegitimacy was weakened. As a result, out-of-wedlock pregnancy is no longer considered shameful, and children are not cautioned about its damaging consequences.”

    “The connection between broken, female-headed homes and delinquency, crime, sexual promiscuity and sociopathic behavior is too obvious to ignore or blame on “racism.”

    “For instance, fatherless boys are twice as likely to end up in jail even when race and income are held constant. Regardless of income and race, there is a strong correlation between the number of single parent families in a community and the crime rate. Seventy percent of all prison and reform school inmates come from fatherless homes.”

    “Homosexuals claim they’re not out to destroy marriage. So why not be satisfied with civil ceremonies? Because they want to make a mockery of the traditional family and the sanctity of marriage. Their hostility toward Christian principles is apparent.”

    “But it’s not just Christians who believe homosexuality is morally wrong. All the world’s major religions have always viewed homosexual behavior as wrong, including the “peaceful” religion of Islam. Practicing homosexuals in Muslim countries are often killed.”

    “The Bible is clear that marriage between a man and woman is the only context for the sexual relationship. The whole Bible — Old and New Testament — views adultery, sex before marriage and homosexual activity as unequivocally wrong.”

    “I urge those who profess Christ, yet condone homosexual “marriage”, to dust off their Bibles and take a look. God warns, “Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind…Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.” (Romans 1:28 and 32) God’s judgment will be swift, perfect and just.”

    “I encourage Bible-believing Christians (as opposed to nominal Christians) to share God’s truth with a fallen world. Every moment we remain silent, we participate in America’s decline. Silence is powerful. Remember the 43 million babies “legally” murdered since Roe v. Wade?”


  22. The Decline of a Nation
    Kerby Anderson

    ——————————————————————————–

    Introduction
    Doomsayers for many years have been predicting the decline and fall of this country. And while many of these short-term predictions have proved inaccurate, there is some truth to the prevailing belief that this nation will fall like every great nation before it. Apart from revival and reformation, this nation is destined to decline.

    The problem with many of these doomsayers is that while their prognosis is right, their diagnosis is wrong. Yes, the future is bleak. But our problem is not ultimately political, economic, or social, as these doomsayers would have us believe. The decline of this nation (just as the decline of every other nation) is due to spiritual factors. The political, economic, and social problems we encounter are the symptoms of the spiritual deterioration of a nation.

    Just as there are spiritual principles that influence the life of an individual, so there are political-spiritual principles that govern the life of a nation. And though we may feel that these are obscure and difficult to discern, in reality they are visible to anyone willing to look at the record of history.

    Our problem is that we don’t really learn from history. George Santayana said that “those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.” The philosopher Hegel said, “What experience and history teach us is this: that people and government never have learned anything from history or acted on principles deduced from it.” Or as Winston Churchill said, “The one thing we have learned from history is that we don’t learn from history.”

    The refrains that are often heard are: “It can’t happen here,” or “Our country is different.” But the reality is that nations are born and die just like individuals. Their longevity may exceed the average person’s lifespan. But the reality is that nations also die.

    History has shown that the average age of the great civilizations is around two hundred years. Countries like Great Britain exceed the average while other countries like the United States are just now reaching the average age.

    Each of the great civilizations in the world passed through a series of stages from their birth to their decline to their death. Historians have listed these in ten stages.

    The first stage moves from bondage to spiritual faith. The second from spiritual faith to great courage. The third stage moves from great courage to liberty. The fourth stage moves from liberty to abundance. The fifth stage moves from abundance to selfishness. The sixth stage moves from selfishness to complacency. The seventh stage moves from complacency to apathy. The eighth stage moves from apathy to moral decay. The ninth stage moves from moral decay to dependence. And the tenth and last stage moves from dependence to bondage.

    These are the ten stages through which the great civilizations have gone. Notice the progression from bondage to liberty back to bondage. The first generation throws off the shackles of bondage only to have a later generation through apathy and indifference allow itself to once again be enslaved.

    This is the direction this and every other country is headed. The book of Judges shows that the nation of Israel passed through these same stages. And this country will do the same unless revival and reformation break out and reverse the inexorable decline of this nation.

    The Cycle of Nations
    In his book The End of Christendom, Malcolm Muggeridge makes this powerful observation. He says:

    I conclude that civilizations, like every other human creation, wax and wane. By the nature of the case there can never be a lasting civilization anymore than there can be a lasting spring or lasting happiness in an individual life or a lasting stability in a society. It’s in the nature of man and of all that he constructs to perish, and it must ever be so. The world is full of the debris of past civilizations and others are known to have existed which have not left any debris behind them but have just disappeared.
    He goes on to say that

    …whatever their ideology may be, from the Garden of Eden onwards such dreams of lasting felicity have cropped up and no doubt always will. But the realization is impossible for the simple reason that a fallen creature like man though capable of conceiving perfection and aspiring after it, is in himself and in his works forever imperfect. Thus he is fated to exist in the no man’s land between the perfection he can conceive and the imperfection that characterizes his own nature and everything he does.
    Nations rise and nations fall. Every nation has followed this progression from bondage to bondage. The nations of this century will be no different. But let us not accept the Marxist notion that these are fixed and intractable laws of history. Christians can point to unusual times when revival has redirected the inexorable decline of a civilization. In the Old Testament, Jonah saw revival postpone God’s judgment of Nineveh. In the sixteenth century, Martin Luther and John Calvin saw a Protestant Reformation transform Europe. And even in the history of the United States the First and Second Great Awakenings changed individuals and our society.

    But apart from God’s intervention, nations will decline and eventually pass off the scene. Much of the Old Testament records the history of the nation of Israel. It passed through these same stages and so will every country in the world.

    As Christians we must recognize that nations will rise and fall just as individuals will be born and die. Our civilization will not last indefinitely, but will eventually pass off the scene. Only God’s Word endures forever. We should not put our trust in the things of this world for they are destined for destruction. Instead, we should put our faith in God and His word.

    The Decline of the Family
    Nations most often fall from within, and this fall is usually due to a decline in the moral and spiritual values in the family. As families go, so goes a nation.

    This has been the main premise of thinkers from British historian J. D. Unwin to Russian sociologist Pitirim Sorokin who have studied civilizations that have collapsed. In his book Our Dance Has Turned to Death, Carl Wilson identifies the common pattern of family decline in ancient Greece and the Roman Empire. Notice how these seven stages parallel what is happening in our nation today. In the first stage, men ceased to lead their families in worship. Spiritual and moral development became secondary. Their view of God became naturalistic, mathematical, and mechanical.

    In the second stage, men selfishly neglected care of their wives and children to pursue material wealth, political and military power, and cultural development. Material values began to dominate thought, and the man began to exalt his own role as an individual. The third stage involved a change in men’s sexual values. Men who were preoccupied with business or war either neglected their wives sexually or became involved with lower-class women or with homosexuality. Ultimately, a double standard of morality developed. The fourth stage affected women. The role of women at home and with children lost value and status. Women were neglected and their roles devalued. Soon they revolted to gain access to material wealth and also freedom for sex outside marriage. Women also began to minimize having sex relations to conceive children, and the emphasis became sex for pleasure. Marriage laws were changed to make divorce easy.

    In the fifth stage, husbands and wives competed against each other for money, home leadership, and the affection of their children. This resulted in hostility and frustration and possible homosexuality in the children. Many marriages ended in separation and divorce.

    Many children were unwanted, aborted, abandoned, molested, and undisciplined. The more undisciplined children became, the more social pressure there was not to have children. The breakdown of the home produced anarchy.

    In the sixth stage, selfish individualism grew and carried over into society, fragmenting it into smaller and smaller group loyalties. The nation was thus weakened by internal conflict. The decrease in the birthrate produced an older population that had less ability to defend itself and less will to do so, making the nation more vulnerable to its enemies.

    Finally, unbelief in God became more complete, parental authoritydiminished, and ethical and moral principles disappeared, affecting the economy and government. Thus, by internal weakness and fragmentation the societies came apart. There was no way to save them except by a dictator who arose from within or by barbarians who invaded from without.

    Although this is an ancient pattern of decline found in Greece and Rome, it is relevant today. Families are the foundation of a nation. When the family crumbles, the nation falls because nations are built upon family units. They are the true driving social force. A nation will not be strong unless the family is strong. That was true in the ancient world and it is true today.

    Social commentator Michael Novak, writing on the importance of the family, said:

    One unforgettable law has been learned through all the disasters and injustices of the last thousand years: If things go well with the family, life is worth living; when the family falters, life falls apart.

    The Decline of Values
    There are many factors in the decline of a nation. Certainly a major one is the breakdown of the family. But another potent but less perceptible force is the power of ideas.

    False ideas are bringing about the decline of western culture. Carl F. H. Henry, in his book Twilight of a Great Civilization, says:

    There is a new barbarism. This barbarism has embraced a new pagan mentality . . . not simply rejecting the legacy of the West, but embracing a new pagan mentality where there is no fixed truth.
    Today we live in a world where biblical absolutes are ignored, and unless we return to these biblical truths, our nation will continue to decline.

    To understand how we have arrived at this appalling situation, we need to go back a century and look at the influence of five intellectual leaders who still profoundly affect the modern world. The first person is Charles Darwin (1809-1882). In 1859 he published The Origin of Species and later published The Descent of Man. His writings blurred the distinction between humans and animals since he taught that we are merely part of an evolutionary progression from lower forms of life. Darwinism, as it came to be called, not only affected the field of biology, but became the foundation for the fields of anthropology, sociology, and psychology.

    The second person is Karl Marx (1818-1883). He and Friedrich Engels published the Communist Manifesto around 1850, and Marx devoted his life to writing about the demise of capitalism and coming of communism. He understood the importance of ideas. Marx once wrote: “Give me twenty-six lead soldiers and I will conquer the world.” The twenty-six lead soldiers are the keys on a typewriter. The pervasive influence of communism in the world today is testimony to the truthfulness of his statement.

    The third person is Julius Wellhausen (1844-1918). Although he may not be as well known as the other two men mentioned, his influence was just as profound. He was a German Bible scholar whose theory on the dating of the Pentateuch completely transformed Old Testament studies.

    Wellhausen argued that the early books of the Bible were not put together by Moses but were gathered together many centuries later by several different men called redactors who wove various strands together. He and his disciples established an anti-supernatural approach to the scriptures which is influential in most denominational seminaries today.

    The fourth person is Sigmund Freud (1856-1939). He merely took the logical implications of what Darwin was doing in biology and applied them to what today is known as psychology and psychiatry. Freud argued that humans are basically autonomous and therefore do not need to know God. Instead, we need to know and understand ourselves since our problems stem from those secret things that have evolved in our lives from our past.

    A fifth person is John Dewey (1859-1952). He is the founder of modern education and published his first work, The School and Society, in 1899. John Dewey was also one of the co-signers of the Humanist Manifesto in 1933.

    Dewey, like Darwin and Freud, believed that humans are autonomous. They don’t need to have an authority above them but can evolve their our own system of education. Thus the very foundation of modern education is anti-supernatural.

    Ideas have consequences, and false ideas can bring down a nation. The theories of these five men are having devastating consequences in our nation and world. Unless we return to biblical absolutes, our nation will continue its decline.

    Spiritual Decline
    The decline and fall of nations is usually due to internal factors rather than external threats. Even though some may have fallen to barbarians, their demise ultimately came because of moral and spiritual weakness which manifested itself as military weakness. Historians have listed the stages in the decline of a nation. These should not be too surprising to any student of the Old Testament. The stages of decline parallel the stages through which the nation of Israel passed.

    But neither should they surprise a student of the New Testament. In the opening chapter of the Apostle Paul’s letter to the church in Rome, he traces a similar progression. In fact, Romans 1 shows the decline of a civilization from a societal perspective. Looking at the Hellenistic world of his time, he reflects on the progression of sin in a nation.

    The first stage is when people turn from God to idolatry. Although God has revealed Himself in nature to all men so that they are without excuse, they nevertheless worship the creation instead of the Creator. This is idolatry. In the past, this took the form of actual idol worship. In our day, it takes the form of the worship of money or the worship of self. In either case, it is idolatry. A further example of this is a general lack of thankfulness. Although they have been prospered by God, they are ungrateful. And when they are no longer looking to God for wisdom and guidance, they become vain and futile and empty in their imaginations. They no longer honor God, so their foolish hearts become darkened. In professing to be wise, they have become fools.

    The second stage is when men and women exchange their natural use of sex for unnatural uses. Here the Apostle Paul says those four sobering words, “God gave them over.” In a society where lust- driven sensuality and sexual perversion dominate, God gives them over to their degrading passions and unnatural desires. The third stage is anarchy. Once a society has rejected God’s revelation, it is on its own. Moral and social anarchy is the natural result. At this point God has given the sinners over to a depraved mind and so they do things which are not proper. This results in a society which is without understanding,untrustworthy, unloving, and unmerciful.

    The final stage is judgment. God’s judgment rightly falls upon those who practice idolatry and immorality. Certainly an eternal judgment awaits those who are guilty, but a social judgment occurs when God gives a nation over to its sinful practices.

    Notice that this progression is not unique to the Hellenistic world the Apostle Paul was living in. The progression from idolatry to sexual perversion to anarchy to judgment is found throughout history.

    In the times of Noah and Lot, there was the idolatry of greed, there was sexual perversion and promiscuity, there was anarchy and violence, and finally there was judgment. Throughout the history of the nation of Israel there was idolatry, sexual perversion, anarchy (in which each person did what was right in his own eyes), and finally judgment.

    This progression happened throughout the Bible and to Greece, to Persia, to Babylon, and to Rome. And if it happened to these nations, then it can happen today.Unless we return to God’s principles, decline and destruction are inevitable.

    © 1991 Probe Ministries

    ——————————————————————————–


  23. @Stephen Stewart

    Do you appreciate that the issue is bigger that what homosexuals do in their bedrooms?


  24. @ David

    “Is it possible that if pro homosexual countries move ahead with hitching conditions to AID suggested by Cameron that this could force a split in the world?

    For example we know several African countries have splintered from the Anglican Church as a result.”

    Fair observation. There are loud voices in Roman Catholic Africa calling-out for an Auxiliary Priesthood and many priest and Nuns are none celibates by admission; some (albeit) covertly. For African Traditional belief is that ‘God had placed human on the Earth to procreate’ and considers the childless adult most unfortunate and disfavoured…it a bad stigma.

    however this homosexual ‘thing’ is tied-up with European long-time obsessions with African people’s procreation and population. There’s a history of Birth Control Programs in Africa conducted by Europeans and a MASSIVE propaganda program about population explosion in Africa. the truth is: Africa is very underpopulated and compared to Europe per land mass at-that.

    of-course European major fears is that they will be genetically removed from existence by people of colour and especially so because of their sexual practices and ‘nuclear family policy’ of the eighties and the ‘professional-woman’ gender issues etc of today.

    The REAL issue is about Europeans having a LARGESS of the world resources. Europeans represent less than 30% of the world population yet consumes more than 65% of the world resources


  25. “But our problem is NOT* ultimately political, economic, or social, as these doomsayers would have us believe. The decline of this nation (just as the decline of every other nation) is due to SPIRITUAL* factors. The political, economic, and social problems we encounter are the SYMPTOMS* of the spiritual deterioration* of a nation.” Emphasis added.

    The above quote, taken from the article I cited earlier, IS* essentially what I have LABOURED to say on BU over the last few years, THAT* our real problem is NOT* political, economic, or social in nature, BUT* ARE* SYMPTOMS* of a much DEEPER underlying SPIRITUAL* malady, we have/are TURNING away from the Only ONE* who blessed us in the first place, Almighty God, through His SON* ( NOT sun!) Jesus Christ, and:

    “UNLESS the LORD BUILDS the house, ( Family, (Father & Mother, NOT Adam & Steve, and the NATION) They labor in VAIN who (seek) to build it. UNLESS the LORD guards the city, The watchman stays awake in VAIN.”
    (Psalm 127: 1 Emphasis added).

    IF, our government has the courage, to TELL David Cameron, and the World Order elite RATS, “…GO TO HELL…” with you EVIL Homosexual agenda, AND, if we as a people, would RETURN to Almighty God, and Jesus Christ, in sincere REPENTANCE, we and GOD are a MAJORITY, let me break it down further, ONE Man and God, IS* a majority, One Family and God, IS* a majority, NOT David Cameron, the IMF, World Bank, or any other wicked agency of EVIL men!

    If God be for YOU, (I.e., man, woman, or Nation) who can be against you? No one!

    REPENT!, REPENT!, Barbados, and see the Glory of God shine on this little Island, OR, be like the other weak nations, and FEEL His ultimate Warth!


  26. It will take some ‘guts’ from our leaders to build our society the way we* want. Do we have the leadership among us to state our position unequivocally?


  27. Should be “…and FEEL His ultimate WRATH!”


  28. […] “countries that ban homosexuality with losing aid payments unless they reform”, Barbados Underground says that “the financial dependent countries of the world will have no choice but to fall in […]


  29. This lifestyle was in the beginning and so shall it be to the end. What is the fuss-why continue to harp on the issue? It’s about time we stop beating a dead horse – this is something that we can’t turn back the hand of time. It will never change!


  30. With Mia Motley being the obvious ‘Universalists’ that she appears to be, Owen Arthur, well, he seems to straddle the fence, ‘spiritually’ and F. Stuart, saying, that he is still ‘praying’ for the peaceful ‘repose’ of Thompson’s soul, what UNBIBLICAL nonsense, Thompson is either in Heaven, or Hell, either way, NO prayer can help, or is needed!

    Only, then, can a serious concerted, RETURN, by many to God Almighty, and Jesus Christ, avert the inevitable consequences our Nation is facing!


  31. @Guest

    So we throw our hands in the air even though we believe the kind of society we want to build is being threatened? Do similar you are saying because murder and wars have been around since Adam was a lad?


  32. @ Zoe “The Bible is clear that marriage between a man and woman is the only context for the sexual relationship.”

    The Bible says a lot of things that heed is not given to. Let us not be selective. Should it not be all or none?


  33. Interesting, the pastor at the church where I go announced Sunday that he was offered a transfer to another church. That church has a following of gays.
    He says he would not discriminate against them; yet, he said he just could not married two of the same sex. Go figga. In fairness to him, he does not push religion or the Bible down anyone’s throa.


  34. correction… throa=throat

  35. Stephen. D. Stewart. Avatar
    Stephen. D. Stewart.

    What some one does in their own Privacy is nothing to do with any one else..How would you like it if some one says to you you cant do that with your wife /husband …what my wife and I do in the bedroom is nobody elses business and the same applys to Gay/Lesbian people …people should be allowed to live their lives in a way they feel fit to and not be vilified just cos they dont CONFORM to a narrow minded set of people …Peadophiles and child abusers are of more concern to me ..consenting Adults ..what the hell has it got to do with me..??

  36. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ Zoe:
    “Stuart, saying, that he is still ‘praying’ for the peaceful ‘repose’ of Thompson’s soul, what UNBIBLICAL nonsense, Thompson is either in Heaven, or Hell, either way, NO prayer can help, or is needed!”

    So you must either go to heaven or hell! No in-between or limbo for humans! That means that hell must be overpopulated by now, given the billions of humans who have walked this earth but not in the shoes designed by Jesus.

    So Zoe, tell us: what about LP of CLICO repute? Where would he be going? The same place as Thompson? Then a lot of people would be protecting their asse(t)s in hell just like the policyholders are catching theirs on earth after being taken for a ride.


  37. David why is the issue big ..Cos a lot of nosy people want to involve themselves in OTHER peoples business and cant even run their own lives ..OR is it what the Bible says..?


  38. @ All. Please be advised and proceed accordingly.
    *The Family*
    *A Proclamation to the World*
    The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

    “We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

    All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

    In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

    The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

    We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.

    Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

    The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

    We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

    We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.”

    This proclamation was read by President Gordon B. Hinckley as part of his message at the General Relief Society Meeting held September 23, 1995, in Salt Lake City, Utah.

    Do You Have Feedback about This Page?

    Go to Classic LDS.org


  39. A suggestion to the Nation newspaper, commission a survey to establish how bajans empirically feel about the issue of homosexuality. Anecdotal BU knows the answer already. Charge $2 for the info to pay for it.

    Barbadians have been labeled xenophobic and some will rejoice to add homophobic.

  40. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ David:
    It would be interesting to see from such a survey the response to the following question that can be posed to those polled:
    “Do you think that the removal on the law on ‘buggery” from the statute books would lead to an upsurge in homosexuality in Barbados?”
    Then we will see how much Bajans have benefited from free universal education.


  41. There is a conference on Autism coming to Barbados soon. Some people believe that autism is unatural … my my, Einstein, if you can hear me, you should have been hospitalized for being different …!

    David

    I say this with a kind and humble heart… CHRISTIANS are the problem, not gays. I care nothing for the opinions of majorities, hey tell you what, next time you have a medical condition go seek a “majority” opinion


  42. David if you remove the cut and past comments of the likes of Zoe you would save a tremendous amount of storage on the wordpress servers… shoot he has taken up two thirds of the space on this thread alone … and he did it by choice!


  43. @BAFBFP

    There is logic in your comment if only human behaviour was predicated on logic only*.


  44. Unfortunately a lot of these so-called “poor aided countries” need to get themselves together and realise that it is ‘them’ who is AIDING, and have always been aiding’ countries like Britain.


  45. “So you must either go to heaven or hell! No in-between or limbo for humans! That means that hell must be overpopulated by now, given the billions of humans who have walked this earth but not in the shoes designed by Jesus.”

    “So Zoe, tell us: what about LP of CLICO repute? Where would he be going? The same place as Thompson?”

    Annaki, Sorry my friend, NO limbo, pergutory, or second chance after Death! “And as it IS* appointed for men to DIE once, but after THIS, the JUDGMENT, So Christ was OFFERED* once to bear the SINS of many. To those who eagerly wait for HIM, He WILL appear a second time, apart from sin, for Salvation.” ( Heb. 9:27 Emphasis added)

    I cannot answer your other question re CLICO, and its personel, its entirely up to them, like ALL others, to either repent, and be Saved, or reject God’s universal offer of forgivness, and Salvation, in Christ Jesus, and be lost forever!

    BTW, be assured, Hell’s capacity, like Heavens, can accomodate any number who desire to go to either eternal destiny!

    Like the Old, toothless Drunk, who walked into a small church, where a Firey Preacher was delivering a sermon on Hell and damnation, mentioned about ‘weaping and nashing of TEETH’ to which the Old drunk said, ‘I ain’t got NO teeth’ the Preached retorted, ‘They will BE PROVIDED!”


  46. @ Preacher ZOE

    So tell muh, wuh bout dem poor souls who din had nuh chance hear de gospel before dem uo and ded and get planted?

    You still got a lot to learn Preacher ZOE!


  47. @ Preacher ZOE
    Tell me, sir, why do I get the impression that you are so full of hate and self-guilt? You never heard about the doctrine of “forgiveness”? Btw, forgiveness has to start with forgiving of self. Simply because if you can’t find it within you to forgive yourself then how for heaven’s sake would you be able to forgive another?


  48. @BU.David: “A suggestion to the Nation newspaper, commission a survey to establish how bajans empirically feel about the issue of homosexuality.

    At the end of the day, the issue has to do with the Religious wishing to procreate more Believers who will support them.

    We’re at 7 billion Humans on Planet Earth, and counting. And the Earth can’t support that many Humans.

    But let us breed a few more humans who are on our side.

    Does anyone notice this Does Not Scale?

    It’s an “arms” race; unlike any seen before.


  49. “7 billion humans on planet Earth … Let us breed a few more humans who are on our side.”

    So you know what, let us start eating Christians… now this would be the classic example of a problem becoming its own solution …!


  50. @BAFBFP: “So you know what, let us start eating Christians… now this would be the classic example of a problem becoming its own solution …!

    Here’s another suggestion…

    Why can all mankind not refrain from eating themselves?

    We all share an ecosystem, after all.

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