Why Are We Here? Atheism’s Narrative: Zeitgeist In An Age Of Moral Relativism And Where Deluded Scientists Inspire Men To Believe There Is No God Or No “HEAVEN”

Submitted by Terence Blackett


In my Father’s House are many mansions and if it were not so I would have told you…John 14:2


In 1972, Beatle – John Lennon released the most famous song ever recorded by any human being with words that ominously ask us to -“Imagine there’s no Heaven, it’s easy if you try, no hell below us, above us only sky, imagine all the people, living for today…”

4 decades later, on Monday May 16th 2011, (reported in Reuters) ahead of the Google Zeitgeist meeting in London where speakers included British finance minister George Osborne and Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz found imminent physicist Stephen Hawking hogging the limelight ahead of an all-important speech. Before the meeting, Hawking was asked to address the question – “Why are we here?”

Hawking argued that “tiny quantum fluctuations in the very early universe sowed the seeds of human life.” He suggested that – “Heaven is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.” He said “I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I’m not afraid of death, but I’m in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first,” he told the Guardian newspaper. “I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.” When asked how we should live he said: “We should seek the greatest value of our action.”

What a thought-provoking statement by Hawking but more so his comment that – “We should seek the greatest value of our action” which presupposes that life is utilitarian in its ethos yet it is somehow peppered with Aristotelian philosophical strands. One wonders at time if Horgan’s words do have a merit of truth where he says that guys like Hawking are a kind of “cosmic comic performance artist who loves goofing on his fellow physicists and the rest of us.” But is he goofing around or is he positing a serious philosophical slant which has its roots in classical literature? Or is Hawking indirectly admitting that there is an epistemological conundrum which for 1000’s of years remains unresolved as to why we are really here on this planet?

Let’s attempt to answer Hawking & Co. by looking at what ancient philosophy has taught us and how has science helped to undermine or bolster those positions?

As early as the 1820’s the Universe was thought to be 6000 years old. It is now thought to be some 14 billions years old with dimensions of some 150 billion trillion miles across at it nearest point and ad infinitum at its farthest. In our own galaxy, if one were to travel across it at the speed of light (186,000 miles per second) it would take over 100,000 years from one end to another. And if according to astrophysicists, in the universe every 88 gallons of space contains one atom and the furthest back into the universe you look – the more the past emerges into the future, is it even possible to explain life at the subatomic level where we enter the nexus of the Divine? These are some of the questions which science is incapable of answering.

So what about the age-old question that has baffled philosophers, scientists and even sceptics since time immemorial? Why are we here? What is the role of man in the grand schema? And how does the pervasive logic of zeitgeist in an age of moral relativism infringe on Biblical truth, where men laud this idea that there is no distinct or Absolute Truth, underpinned by this notion that all roads lead to home and that “truth” is whatever we individually conceive it to be?

Today, most of our philosophical strands of ideas have emerged out of classical, modernists and postmodernist theory. However, these philosophical perspectives on the meaning of life find their ideological basis in terms of ideals or abstractions defined by fallible human beings.

Classical philosophy for example, was shaped by the narrative of the Batman & Robin of their time (Plato & Aristotle) who believed that the meaning of life is in attaining the highest form of knowledge, which is the Idea (Form) of the Good, from which all good and just things derive utility and value (sounding much like Hawking’s position).

Human beings are duty-bound to pursue the good, but no one can succeed in that pursuit without philosophical reasoning, which allows for true knowledge. Aristotle arrived at this philosophical slant called being “virtuous” where – “Every skill and every inquiry, and similarly, every action and choice of action, is thought to have some good as its object. This is why the good has rightly been defined as the object of all endeavours… Everything is done with a goal, and that goal is ‘good'”.

And so classical philosophy took on many myriad forms moving from Aristotelian to the era of the Cynic philosophers to the Socratic school of Cyrenaics, to the Epicureans and to the Stoics who occupied Mars Hills in the days of Paul the Apostle when he confronted them about their statute to the Unknown God (Acts 17:16-34).

With the advent of the Enlightenment Period, science and philosophy entered a new frontier of discovery, with each discipline fighting over inch of pre-modernist terrain. Classical liberalism during these centuries became a harbinger for the clash of civilizations which would continue for another 200 years where the tensions between devotion and subservience to God were largely replaced by notions of empirical science, inalienable natural rights and the potentialities of reason, and universal ideals of love and compassion which gave way to civic notions of freedom, equality, and citizenship.

The Enlightenment ideals were borne out of conflicts between a growing, wealthy, propertied bourgeois class and the established aristocratic and religious orders that dominated Europe and the then known world. Subsequent philosophies of Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau and Adam Smith were to be overshadowed by Kant’s Categorical Imperative and to finally give rise to the 19th century paradigms of the Utilitarianism of Bentham & Stuart-Mills et al.

These classical forms of Zeitgeist hardly lacked spokespersons – merely for the simple fact that there have always been those who do not believe. Science continued to trumpet the fact that the Church has always been on the wrong side of the debate. Case in point, when Galileo began to explore and explain the theories of Copernicus about space and planetary orbits and that the sun was the center of our solar system with the earth travelling around it – the Roman Church was angered. This went against the contraventions of 15th century interpretation of the Bible by the Roman Catholic priesthood. Galileo was harshly treated and placed under house arrest. Galileo died in 1642 and it took [350] years for the Vatican to pardon and expunge his name as a “HERETIC”. Science has never let the church forget the Galileo blunder! So astrophysicists, theoretical scientists and others have concluded that religion is the adversary of reason and have expelled the church from the halls of academic credibility.

During the 18th century, a young French philosopher named Francois-Marie Arouet writings reached the king of France and in his anger had him committed to the Bastille. That 21 year old young man while locked away for no crime other than for the crime of positing another form of philosophical reasoning chose the pen name VOLTAIRE* and as Will Durant in his book – The Story of Philosophy quotes Victor Hugo: “To name Voltaire is to characterize the entire 18th century. Italy had a Renaissance, and Germany had a Reformation, but France had Voltaire; he was for his country both Renaissance and Reformation, and half the Revolution. With Voltaire, France began to think.”

Voltaire eventually escaped the Bastille and amongst his most famous writing was a play called “Candide” based on a fictionally inspired scholar called “Pangloss”* (a professor of Metaphysico-theologico-cosmologico-panology or more simply described as “OPTIMISM”) – a play which caused most of France to start to question their faith.

Voltaire was an admirer of Isaac Newton (a devout Christian) but his dialectic thinking resulted in him questioning miracles, the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection – consequently ruling out these Biblical principles. His denunciation of organized religion and the clergy was to set the stage after his death in 1778 for the mayhem of the French Revolution – [15] years later. The Reign of Terror and the guillotine murdered thousands; Bibles were burned and the ominous words of Voltaire rang out across France that belief in God was useless. Three and a half years of disowning God proved that “ATHEISM” in France was to be the path to ruin and abysmal destruction.

Atheism was further bolstered by Friedrich Nietzsche’s characteristic nihilism – as emptying the world, and especially human existence, of meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, and essential value. This was the century where the final bulwarks were erected against God and the possibilities of any hope of Heaven. Hence German philosopher Freidrich Nietzsche assertion that “God is dead” and the ensuing epoch where human reasoning and philosophy became the pre-eminent “gospel” of truth for men who sought an excuse to debunk God. In his book titled “Antichrist” he write: “I call Christianity the one great curse, the one enormous and innermost perversion, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are too venomous, too underhand, too underground, and too petty.”

This was the son of Lutheran ministers on both sides of his family. The dark zeitgeist of Satanic infiltration met Nietzsche at his Waterloo. In the crushing crescendo of such “genius” Nietzsche fell off the wagon and spent the last [11] years of his life completely insane where the statement was coined “God is dead” but before the door of his life closed he made one ominous prediction that “the 20th century would be the bloodiest in human history”. Sure enough, historians recount the 180 million souls who perished through war, disease and displacement.

“Nietzsche had a final look at the kingdom erected by his own theories and it frankly terrified him” His disciple Sigmund Freud studied his theories and created vast psychological models based on Nietzsche’s atheism and so did Carl Jung. What’s even more diabolical is the fact that the [3] most tyrannical political leaders of the 20th century (Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler) devoured his writings with rabid fascination and malevolent zeal. And so the fruits of atheism created a pretty sober menu for the inhabitants of Europe during the last apocalyptic century.

“Then as the world took a final destabilizing lurch toward the abyss with the arrival of Charles Darwin”, with his “theories of evolution and survival of the fittest” – we witnessed the frontal assaults on the very existence of God as CREATOR*. Darwin quietly confesses with some anxiety how he slowly shed his belief in the Bible and in God. First to go was miracles because if something could not be verified by science it had to be abandoned. “Disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete,” he admits. Karl Marx, a disciple of Darwin, found clarity and symmetry in the theories of evolution. Marx saw “religion as the opiate of the masses”. Marx even asked Darwin if he could dedicate his most prolific work “DAS KAPITAL” to the British scientist and so he did.

The 20th century arrived with serious advances in science – a quantum leap into the beyond where in the last [100] years we have gone from sailing galleons to nuclear submarines; from Orville Wright to the possibilities of time-travel; from the alchemy of herbal concotions, shrubs and Hippocratic medicine to nanotechnology and space-age biotech discoveries. Mankind has finally emerged from the shores of early 20th century pragmatism, existentialism, absurdism, secular humanism, logical positivism, postmodernism, naturalistic pantheism and evolutionary psychology to a meaningless world of MORAL RELATIVISM* where there are no absolutes especially when it comes to Divine Truth, a Divine Designer or a primordial world tucked away in the 3rd Heavens where God The Creator exist in a place called Eternity – to many an “imaginary” world brought on by delusionary Christian thinking.

In conclusion, 1950’s Communist atheistic Russia were the 1st in space with their Sputnik rockets. In 1961 cosmonaut Gheman Titov while speaking to reporters, journalists and admirers at the World Fair that year boasted that: “I never saw God up there.” A young comedian in the crowd shouted back: “If you’d just stepped out of your capsule for a closer look, you would have seen Him!”

Then in 1968, the United States Apollo 8 space program mission made the ultimate step for humanity by landing a man on the moon. While the world stayed gripped to their TV screens, in the words of Christian apologist Ravi Zacharias opined: “They saw Earth rise above the horizon of the moon, draped in a beauteous mixture of white and out of, bordered by the glistening light of the sun against the black void of space” – and in the throes of that awe-inspiring moment those astronauts opened the pages of Genesis and read for the world to hear: “IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH…”

Here are the polarized opposites which we face in our world. Here are [2] groups of extremely bright, well-educated, scientifically-minded persons hurtling through the dark matter of space – one group sees nothing but a vacuum; the other sees the CREATIVE HAND of GOD*!

“Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on Heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendents may live.” (Deut.30:19)

Choose LIFE!!!

192 thoughts on “Why Are We Here? Atheism’s Narrative: Zeitgeist In An Age Of Moral Relativism And Where Deluded Scientists Inspire Men To Believe There Is No God Or No “HEAVEN”

  1. @TB
    I .ve read your response to the adam and Eve story. However it boggles the mind that one would c create a perfect speciman and then corrupt it. .That is like Michael angelo creating a masterpiece and then setting it on fire to see if it burns.

  2. @TMB @ June 15, 2011 at 5:43 PM…


    Why is it every time your are challenged, you resort to YouTube videos which blindly speak to your presuppositions?

    Have you read “The God Particle: If the Universe is the Answer, What is the Question?” by Leon Lederman?

    Have you read “A Brief History of Time; From the Big Bang to Black Holes” by Stephen Hawking?

    Honest answers to these honest questions would be appreciated….

  3. Did God create MAN in his own image Or Did man create God in his own image.? Is it a coincident or divine planning that the God of the Old Testament has the same character flaws as MAN. Anger, jealousy , and even subjecting those who disagrees or disobeys him to death .even those who had trusted and believed in him felt his wrath as with the case of Moses. Man must be careful of the ways God is define because it seems very unflattering. BTW didn’t God say He is GOD all by HIMSELF!rather much a different contrast as portrayed in the OLD TESTAMENT>

  4. @ac:
    You seem to be entering a whole new paradigm of thought, and it possibly could lead to a deeper personal understanding.

    Perception is personal, peculiar to each person (receiver).

    If Quantum Mechanics has any validity, unproven as it is, yet undisprovable as it ticks all the current boxes, we may be beginning with our tiny minds to understand the reality of existence,
    Not the meaning of why we are here, but are we here ….or there… or anywhere — even better – everywhere at the same time,

    Mindboggling as it seems, QM dictates that even the tiniest alteration of our individual atomic state creates a whole new universe of realities.

    I repeat Feynman, “if you think you understand Quantum Physics, then you don’t understand Quantum Physics”.

    Both god and scientific discovery move in remarkably similar ways.

  5. @Straight talk: “If Quantum Mechanics has any validity, unproven as it is, yet undisprovable as it ticks all the current boxes…

    QM is a theory. You see, Science is honest enough to say “this is what we believe to be the best explanation we currently have for what we observe empirically. But we are open to other theories.

    QM is the best theory we currently have to explain the weird behaviour we observe at the very small (atomic and subatomic) level.

    The transistor was developed because of an understanding of this theory.

    Every test thought up to disprove this theory has instead supported it.

    If you don’t agree with QM, then go out and try to buy a cell-phone or a computer based on vacuum tubes and/or God’s Will…

    Or better yet, come up with another theory which stands up to experimental treatment better than QM does….


  6. @ ac
    “…..it boggles the mind that one would create a perfect speciman and then corrupt it”
    Have you given any consideration at all to the slight possibility that you have no idea whatsoever about what you are talking…? In discussions like these it is very important to define even apparently simple terms – otherwise you could find yourself rushing in ‘where angels fear to thread’.

    It has NEVER been said anywhere that God ‘created a perfect specimen’ in the form of Adam. What was described as perfect (or at least very good) was the OVERALL CREATION. (Had Adam been ‘perfect’ he would not have listened to the blank blank woman and sinned LOL)

    The SYSTEM that was created is PERFECTLY suited for the task of refining IMPERFECT humans into a state of perfection, and one of the important TOOLS needed for this refinement is the very ‘tree at the center of the garden’, and the very Satan which you can only see as a corruption of the system.

    As was stated before, from the creator’s perspective, “a PERFECT system” is one which achieves the objectives established, and a perfect specimen is one that has attained the levels of spiritual evolution set by the creator. If it takes a devil to help to facilitate such a level of spiritual development, then obviously a perfect creation will need to INCLUDE a Satan……

    Hope that this helps….

  7. @Bush Tea
    Doesn’t everything include Man as part of “GOD”s creation wasn’t man “Supposedly” to be perfect before man eat of the fruit!In simple English unless mycomprehension of the word “Everything””is skewed it means not to be excluded. or maybe it is “Women’s intuition” .thinking on my part. according to Bible teaching . Wasn’t Man created in the image of GOD. was is there to define. ? That is not my definition! ! Bush Tea. You might be Lost on this subject maybe you need to converse with Zoe and your theory of BBE plan for Man.

  8. This is proving to be very frustrating, first, I spent a long time writing to BT, re the usage of the original language on “Good” ‘goodness’ etc, only to mistakenly touch the wrong key, and LOST everything. My PC froze, had to shut it down, then re-start all over again.

    Then, I wrote comments again to BT, only to find now, that I needed to give my Email address and name, again, I lost all that I had typed. (Lol!)

    BT, will try again tomorrow morning, I tired…!

  9. LOL @ Zoe

    Maybe that is divine intervention LOL.
    Sleep on it my friend.

    @ ac
    Thanks! Bushie will take your kind advice and not seek to converse with you on this subject. It is beyond a humble bush man to decipher exactly what you are trying to say in your posts….

  10. @BT, Back to your woefully inadequate analogy of your pet ‘Bulldog’ gone bad, could your Bulldog make moral choices? Or was it not created as an animal in the first place?

    God created Lucifer as an awesome Angelic being, the light bearer, with the capacity to choose, likewise Adam, His prize creation, who WAS morally PERFECT, meaning without SIN, and if he obeyed God’s ONE single command, he would NEVER die, spiritually or physically.

    “Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man saying, ‘Of EVERY tree of the garden you may FREELY eat, BUT of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall NOT eat, for in the day that you eat of it, YOU SHALL SURELY DIE.” (Gen 2: 15-17 Emphasis added).

    In this lush natural awesome reserve, were found the two trees that are KEY to everything that follows in ALL of human history. They were the physical means God used to transact spiritual realities. The tree of LIFE, is the tree associated with experiencing thye LIFE* of God, including immortality. The TREE of the knowledge of good and evil represents human autonomy, that is, EGO-CENTRIC, SELF-RULE, and an assumed independence APART from God in ALL areas of life.

    The tragedy of human AUTONOMY* is seen in God’s WARNING*, “…YOU SHALL SURELY DIE…” if you choose this way, in that man’s ego-centric driven SEL-RULE is all inclusive, so that DEATH is inclusive of man’s spiritual, moral, social, relational, and ultimately, his physical being.

    This did NOT have to bo so, Adam could have choosen just ONCE* not to disobey God, and if he had made that right CHOICE, just ONCE* he would NEVER, EVER, have brought upon himself, and by extension ALL of humanity into this MESS of SIN, with all of its attendent horror, and DEATH.

    Sorry BT, Almighty God DID/DOES NOT need Satan or any other form of EVIL, to perfect mankind; Adam WAS already PERFECT morally, only IF* he had chosen to remain that way, by one simple ACT of volitional obedience, HE/WE, wouild never, ever be in this horrible state we find ourselves IN.

    Almighty God’s plan and desire for our FIRST ancestor’s Adam and Eve, was nothing but GOOD, PERFECT, righteous, NEVER to DIE, but to LIVE in perfect harmony and fellowship with HIM* our Almighty Creator, and it could have been so, IF, only ONE single CHOICE in the right direction had been made.

    As a direct result of Adam’s wilfull disobedience, ALL of creation on eath WAS cursed, everything, down to the last blade of grass, and even in its cursed* condition it is still so very beautiful, just IMAGINE what it must have been like, before the FALL, which brought the curse.

  11. To simplify the argument, Bush Tea posits as part of BBE design the creator in his OMNI-state would have know that the ‘morally’ correct Adam would have eaten the forbidden fruit.

  12. @ AC

    “it boggles the mind that one would create a perfect specimen and then corrupt it…”

    That is an OVERSIMPLIFICATION* my friend!!!

    To make such a presupposition is RASH* and foolhardy – not recognizing that even in the natural sense of our own humanity, we wouldn’t set-up our KIDS* to FAIL*, would we?

    So if we as “GOOD” parents know how to do GOOD* things for our own children – then how much more HE* who is our CREATOR???

    Brother, please take off your BLINDERS* and have your SPIRITUAL* vision embellished with the HOLY SPIRIT* so you will be able to rightfully discern who is the REAL* culprit in this cosmic drama…

  13. @ BT, ‘Quantum credis, tantum habes’ ‘To the extent that you believe, to that extent you possess; i.e., theology cannot be posessed by those who have no faith, in God’s historically revealed Word, the Bible.

    Therefore, ‘Quod non est biblicum, non est theologicum: ‘What is NOT biblical, is NOT theological.”

    Malum; (adj.) malus, -a,-um: EVIL, as defined by Augustine and argued by the scholastics, evil is NOT a thing or a substance. Since ALL things, as ALL the substances from which God created ALL things GOOD, evil must be defined as having nonsubstantial existence, or as existing in the form of a DEFECT or a PRIVATION in an otherwise good thing, GONE BAD. Evil, therefore, cannot be an ultimate opposed eternally to the ultimate GOOD; evil depends for its very existence upon the existence of good. Nor can evil become absolute, since evil is a DEFECT or a PRIVATION in and of the good, (i.e., Lucifer, gone bad!). its increase toward the absolute results in the absolute privation of the good, i.e., in NONBEING or NOTHINGNESS. Evil can also be defined, therefore, as the privation of BEING or as the result of a WILL moving AWAY from being toward nobeing.

    It is also worth nothing that the connection traditionally made between the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Gen. 2:9) – the ‘arbor scientiae boni et mali’ – and the “apple” reputedly eaten by the first pair, Adam and Eve, rests, not on an ignorance of the text, as sometimes assumed, but on a bit of philological humor; the adjective “evil” (malus, mala, malum) is identical in its masculine and neuter forms respectively, with theLatin words for “apple tree” (malus) and “apple” (malum).


    “You have an presupposition, and an agenda. And you think a few thousand (or a few tens of thousands) of words will cow people into thinking you know more than they do, and thus you must…”

    GUILTY AS CHARGED on [1] count!!!

    I do have an agenda!!!

    As regarding your other “SUPPOSITIONS” alleging some intrinsic form of EGOMANIA* – I respectfully disagree with your simplistic analysis of me as a person… NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!!


    My dear BRO. – I am sure that piece of Scripture is probably more APTLY* applicable to GOOD* folks like DAVID, ZOE, THE BUSHMAN & others!!!

    Needless to say, a servant is NEVER* greater than his MASTER*…

    @ CH (again)

    “Why is it every time your are challenged, you resort to YouTube videos which blindly speak to your presuppositions?”


    Brother, I am not in a “metal-cage” for confrontation and contestation to satisfy some “weird” egomaniacal tendencies…

    This is not a battle of “WITS”, or a tour de force of speculative knowledge to prove who’s RIGHT or WRONG!!!

    If we come to table FREE* from PERSONALITY idiosyncrasies and overstretched EGOS*, then it is easy to REASON* – so we can arrive at a better understanding of “TRUTH” – given that in this age of MORAL RELATIVISM*, there are nebulous forces which dead-set on hijacking the “TRUTH”…

  15. A bit more on the concept of Goodness.

    Bonitas, GODNESS; specifically, moral goodness as distinct from ‘dignitas’ or goodness in the sense of merit. The scolastics also distinguished between ‘bonitas absoluta’ absolute goodness, and ‘bonitas dependens ab alio’ goodness dependen on another, or derived goodness, and also between ‘bonitas essentialis sive substantialis, essential or substantial good, i.e., the goodness that belongs to the being or essence of things AS CREATED by God, and ‘bonitas accedentalis, accidental or incidental goodness, i.e., goodness that is in a thing as an incidental property, and that can be LOST by the thing. Bonita essentialis, is also contrasted with ‘bonitas graduum’ a goodness of degrees. All creatures, insofar as they are CREATED and given being by God, have essential goodness, but NONE has a perfect goodness of degree, since perfect or highest degree of goodness belongs to God only.

    Bonitas Dei: the goodness or moral excellence of God. Therefore, God is GOOD’in se’ in Himself, and IS absolute GOOD, the ground and standard of ALL CREATED GOODNESS. By extension, therefore, God IS GOOD respectively, or in relation to His creatures.

    Therefore, the very essence of His BEING, cannot create anything BAD, or EVIL. only that which is GOOD, and EVIL as pointed out earlier, exist in the form of a DEFECT or a PRIVATION, in an otherwise GOOD thing (i.e., Lucifer, Adam) having CHOOSEN to be BAD, or EVIL!

  16. When ever man goes outside of the sound, established principles of Biblical Hermeneutics, Contextual Analysis, and Linguistic Exegesis, he always ends up with unscriptural concepts and teachings, ALWAYS!

    It is called: ‘Proton pseudo’ ‘false fundamental; i.e, a doctrinal position held as basic by an errorist; and, the world around us, is awash in such pseudo-doctrine!

  17. @TB
    Your coment posted oJune 16th @ 7.21.am.makes complete sense and it is effortless in showing Good judgement and Commonsense on the partof a loving parent. However the same cannot be said of the Adam and Eve story as God knew k the end result.Good and loving parents never put their children in harms way and does whatever is necessary to protect them. TheAdam and Eve story is a blatant misrepresentation of a “Loving GOD”

  18. Some argue that the God of the Bible cannot make an error, and that he is perfect.. He would not need to repent therefore as described in 1 samuel 15.35
    or 1Chronicles 21.15. KJV Perhaps I misunderstand the word repent.


  19. @ AC

    “The Adam and Eve story is a blatant misrepresentation of a “Loving GOD”….”

    If your BELIEF* is CORRECT* – then the whole fabric of THE BIBLE* becomes fundamentally flawed and we can throw out the BABY* with the bath water… (sorry for that graphic analogy)…

    Clearly you accept that GOD IS LOVING*…

    How you have arrived at the concept of “BLATANT MISREPRESENTATION” boggles my mind (but please forgive me as I am not as adept at reading between the lines as some other FOLKS* here on BU)…

    In theology is this concept called “PRESUPPOSITION” (ZOE* is better qualified to “TEACH” on this complex area of discourse as there are some areas which may be hard to grapple with) – however, if one comes to the table with strands of inherent beliefs presupposed in their minds, it is difficult to see how that does not influence their thought process…

    “SET-UP TO FAIL” clearly is a problem for a lot of people in regards to the ADAM & EVE Biblical account of Creation…

    Did a “LOVING GOD” as you so wonderfully posited set up HIS* kids to fail?


    I will attempt (BY THE GRACE OF GOD LATER) to prepare an expository on that question as the morning is far spent and there’s LOADS* to accomplish today as the SABBATH* dawn upon another week…

    So later on my dear BRUV…

  20. @TB

    Once again i will reference your comment on June 16Th which is clear and concise and defines “LOVE” if what you say is true.Then can you not see the difference if applied to a “Loving GOD” isn’t there a contrast in the way Adam and EVE was treated by GOD and as you so clearly stated” GOOD PARENTS do what is good for their children! Now am i to believe that what happened to Adam and EVE was the result of God being Good to them. Yes the story is flawed and it does not in any way show a GOD of Mercy Love or compassion. These and many other such stories are rampant in the OLD TESTAMENT

  21. @BT, my friend, I can’t hear ya, wuh happen man, ya gone fuh a ‘Bush Bath’ to consult wid de ‘BBL’ BIG BOSS LIAR* SATAN* de father of ALL LIES, if ya listen to him, you’ll get FED nothing by LIES, LIES, and more LIES!!!

  22. @AC

    I am sure that as a possible PARENT* you appreciate the absolutely necessity of RULES (LAWS AS IN GOD’S CASE) as these divine principles determine OBEDIENCE* or DIS-OBEDIENCE!!!

    Many skeptics ask the question -” IF GOD KNEW THAT ADAM & EVE WOULD SINCE WHY DID HE PLANT THE “tree of the knowledge of good & evil” IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN?

    Let me hazard another – “DID HE NOT PLANT THE ‘TREE OF LIFE’ AS WELL???”

    The test of OBEDIENCE* required an awareness and a complete cognizance of what results EVIL* produced… Evil was just as real as GOOD* because SATAN* was the one who perpetrated the LIE* that GOD was unjust (a NOTION* most of the world has bought into) and as a result caused MUTINY* in Heaven and was vehement on bring that same MUTINY* to earth (and he did due to the disobedience of our 1st Parents)…

    When we light the stove, we tell our very young kids not to put their hand near the fire or near anything that is hot – we warn them not to play with matches as FIRE* burns!!! What happens when they “CHOOSE” to blatantly DISOBEY* a direct COMMAND*, RULE* or LAW* laid down by the parent?

    Adam & Eve were given the command of God to obey. Death was the consequence, the result of disobedience, but to have a continuation of life in Eden was based on the precondition of obedience. After given the command to obey they were DECEIVED*, flagrantly disobeyed and played the blame game on one another and God (something we still do even now). They were then excluded by God from the garden on that day, punished with certain physical death and immediate spiritual death.

    NEWTONIAN law (the law of a man with a feeble mind COMPARED TO THAT OF A CREATOR GOD*) clearly argues that “for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction…” WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT ABOUT THAT TO UNDERSTAND?

    A lot of our questions are as OLD* as the hills but the emergence of these theological forms of determinism arose principally during the ERA* of CALVINISM* (more on that to follow) – but more specifically, these frontal assaults on the VERY NATURE AND INTEGRITY OF GOD* by assuming that HE* created SIN* and because of DOUBLE PREDESTINATION* and the DETERMINISTIC PERSPECTIVE* – God is rightfully responsible and must answer for all the ILLS* that plague mankind…

    “THE DEVIL IS A LIAR” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  23. Hyper-Calvinistic theology involves a radical form of supralapsarianism which is the view that God, contemplating man as yet unfallen, chose some to receive eternal life and rejected all others. So a supralapsarian would say that the reprobate (non-elect) — vessels of wrath fitted for destruction (Rom. 9:22) – were first ordained to that role, and then the means by which they fell into sin was ordained…

    In other words, supralapsarianism suggests that God’s decree of election logically preceded His decree to permit Adam’s fall — so that their damnation is first of all an act of divine sovereignty, and only secondarily an act of divine justice…

    Supralapsarianism is sometimes mistakenly equated with “double predestination.” The term “double predestination” itself is often used in a misleading and ambiguous fashion. Some use it to mean nothing more than the view that the eternal destiny of both elect and reprobate is settled by the eternal decree of God…

    In that sense of the term, all genuine Calvinists hold to “double predestination”—and the fact that the destiny of the reprobate is eternally settled is clearly a biblical doctrine (cf. 1 Peter 2:8; Romans 9:22; Jude 4). But more often, the expression “double predestination” is employed as a pejorative term to describe the view of those who suggest that God is as active in keeping the reprobate out of heaven as He is in getting the elect in…

    (There’s an even more sinister form of “double predestination,” which suggests that God is as active in making the reprobate evil as He is in making the elect holy)…

    This view (that God is as active in reprobating the non-elect as He is in redeeming the elect) is more properly labeled “equal ultimacy”

    (CF. R.C. Sproul, Chosen by God, 142).

  24. There are [3] theological terms which deal with God’s predestination of certain individuals to be saved…

    The focus is on the [3] concepts of (infralapsarianism), (supralapsarianism), and (sublapsarianism) – is the order in which God determined things to happen…

    In what order did God create humanity, allow the fall, elect some to salvation, and provide salvation for humanity?

    Ultimately, these are issues that we are incapable of fully grasping. It does not truly matter what order God decreed what to occur. What truly matters is that God created humanity, humanity sinned, and God decided to provide salvation through Jesus Christ…

    Infralapsarianism puts God’s decrees in the following order:

    (1) God decreed the creation of mankind

    (2) God decreed mankind would be allowed to fall into sin through its own self-determination

    (3) God decreed to save some of the fallen, and

    (4) God decreed to provide Jesus Christ as the Redeemer.
    Infralapsarianism focuses on God allowing the fall and providing salvation.

    Sublapsarianism is very similar to infralapsarianism, putting God’s decrees in the following order:

    (1) God decreed to create human beings

    (2) God decreed to permit the fall

    (3) God decreed to provide salvation sufficient to all, and

    (4) God decreed to choose some to receive this salvation. The only difference between infralapsarianism and sublapsarianism is whether God decreed to provide salvation through Jesus Christ and then decreed to choose some to be saved, or vice-versa…

    Supralapsarianism puts God’s decrees in the following order:

    (1) God decreed the election of some and the eternal condemnation of others

    (2) God decreed to create those elected and eternally condemned

    (3) God decreed to permit the fall, and

    (4) God decreed to provide salvation for the elect through Jesus Christ.

    Supralapsarianism focuses on God ordaining the fall, creating certain people for the sole purpose of being condemned, and then providing salvation for only those whom He had elected…

    (CF. gotquestions)

  25. @TB….

    Many skeptics ask the question -” IF GOD KNEW THAT ADAM & EVE WOULD SINCE WHY DID HE PLANT THE “tree of the knowledge of good & evil” IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN?

    Let me hazard another – “DID HE NOT PLANT THE ‘TREE OF LIFE’ AS WELL???”

    Why not answer the first?

    ……’When we light the stove, we tell our very young kids not to put their hand near the fire or near anything that is hot – we warn them not to play with matches as FIRE* burns!!! What happens when they “CHOOSE” to blatantly DISOBEY* a direct COMMAND*, RULE* or LAW* laid down by the parent?’

    Does the Parent know that the kids will put their hands on the stove in advance?
    If you knew (in advance) that your child would stick a knife into an outlet (electrical) and die from electrocution, what would you do as a loving parent?….sit back and hope the child makes the right choice?
    I doubt it, you would most likely block all those outlets in the home.
    The Parents don’t have all knowing power so that analogy is flawed.

  26. @ MAAT

    I am amazed how quickly feeble-minded mortal men are QUICK* to LEAPFROG* into base, meaningless conclusions about the primordial existence of an ALL-POWERFUL CREATOR GOD…

    Have you taken any time to research or do some hermeneutic analysis of what the word “REPENT” means or implies based on the root derivative of the word and what the statement actually means contextually?


    But it is EASY* to arrive at a conclusion without the “PRESSURE” of having to use the one most precious asset resource GOD* gave us all (OUTSIDE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT) – our minds!!!

    And yes, a mind is a terrible thing to waste…

    We have to stop letting others read, write and spell for us – whether they be PASTORS> PREACHERS > or TEACHERS… We have to STUDY* for ourselves so we are NOT* deceived!!!

    Here are a few verses of SCRIPTURE* that show the GOD OF THE BIBLE* grieving or repenting over HIS KIDS* (in the same way we are times are AFFECTED* by the actions of our own kids)…

    Genesis 6:6 reads: The LORD* was grieved (nacham) that HE* had made man on the earth, and HIS* heart was filled with pain…

    Jeremiah 18:8 – ” If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent (nacham) of the evil that I thought to do unto them…”

    Again – Jeremiah 26:3: ” If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent (nacham) me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings…”

    Jonah 3:9: ” Who can tell if God will turn and repent (nacham), and turn away from HIS* fierce anger, that we perish not?

    The word nacham has several meanings…

    1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted

    a) (Niphal)

    1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion

    2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent

    3) to comfort oneself, be comforted

    4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself

    b) (Piel) to comfort, console

    c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled

    d) (Hithpael)

    1) to be sorry, have compassion

    2) to rue, repent of

    3) to comfort oneself, be comforted

    4) to ease oneself

    ( CF. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/5/1142369186-3268.html )

    Sam Shamoun answers this question of God repenting beautifully…


  27. When this word is used in reference to God regretting having made man this doesn’t necessarily imply that God had second thoughts. In those specific contexts it simply means that God hates sin and is grieved when his creatures rebel against him.

    Most assumes that God must be impassionate in order for him to be All-knowing, that God cannot have any feelings towards the actions of his creatures but must remain indifferent. The fact of the matter is that God is not indifferent towards sinners but is hurt and angered by our sins and rebellion:

    “How often they rebelled against Him in the wilderness And grieved Him in the desert!” Psalm 78:40

    “You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities.” Isaiah 43:24

    “But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.” Isaiah 63:10

    “Then those of you who escape will remember Me among the nations to which they will be carried captive, how I have been hurt by their adulterous hearts which turned away from Me, and by their eyes which played the harlot after their idols; and they will loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed, for all their abominations.” Ezekiel 6:9

    This is why specific translations render (“nacham”) in these specific contexts as God being grieved and pained:

    “The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.” Genesis 6:6 NIV

    In other words, being All-knowing doesn’t mean that God must remain indifferent or dispassionate about actions which he fully knows will occur.

    Furthermore, when this word is used in reference to God refraining from bringing judgment upon a nation this again doesn’t necessarily imply that God changed his mind.

    If anything, it proves that God is immutable and remains consistent to his nature. After all, if God continues to bless a nation that has turned away from righteousness then God would be unholy and unjust.

    Likewise, if God destroys a nation that repents of its wickedness then God would be unmerciful and unkind.

    Since God cannot deny himself, but must always remain faithful, he must either refrain from punishing a nation that has repented or destroy one that has turned away from righteousness.

    In other words, since God acts consistently he must take into account the actions of his creatures and deal with them accordingly; he cannot continue to bless evildoers or punish repentant sinners.

    In the words of Jeremiah and Ezekiel:

    “Then the word of the LORD came to me: ‘O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: “Thus says the LORD, behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.” But they say, That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.”’” Jeremiah 18:5-12

    Note that God tells Jeremiah in advance what the response of the people will be, clearly showing that he knows what will happen even before it occurs!

    “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. Yet you say, “The way of the Lord is not just.” Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, “The way of the Lord is not just.” O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.” Ezekiel 18:20-32

    God tells Israel that he will judge them but also commands them to repent, demonstrating that God takes into consideration the actions of the people in determining whether he will show judgment or mercy.

    This also shows that God’s threat of judgment isn’t necessarily the last word since, as the above texts indicate, God will use warnings and the threat of judgment in order to lead the people into repentance. This obviously implies that God allows enough time for the people to repent of their actions in order to spare them from destruction.

    Putting it simply, God sometimes uses the threat of judgment as a means of drawing people to repentance.

    We add just a few more points to the foregoing. The claims that the context of the respective passages that was cited show that “nacham” is better rendered as “repent.”

    Although this is true for most of the passages cited, this is not the case with Genesis 6:6 since the context is speaking of God’s view towards the sins of the men whom he created. As we already stated above, God is grieved and angered when men rebel and disobey, which is actually the point that Genesis 6:6 is conveying. This is similar to the following text:

    “‘I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.’ Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night… He who is the Glory of Israel DOES NOT LIE OR CHANGE HIS MIND; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind… Until the day Samuel died, he did not go to see Saul again, though Samuel mourned for him. And the LORD was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel.” 1 Samuel 15:11, 29, 35 NIV

    Here “nacham” is used in reference to how God viewed Saul’s rebellion against him. And note that within the same context the inspired author affirms that –

    (a) God does not change his mind, and that

    (b) he was grieved over appointing Saul as king!

    The Bible authors obviously had no problem with affirming both truths, that God does not change his mind while also expressing genuine emotions at the same time.

    Moreover, God grieving over sin isn’t a sign of God’s imperfection, but evidence that God is a real personal Being. God expressing emotions is a demonstration of his Personhood, that he has an actual Personality (in fact he is tri-Personal in nature), which dispels the notion of God being nothing more than an impersonal force or energy.

    Further support that God didn’t repent or was grieved because he was unaware of what was going to happen, thereby implying an imperfection in his knowledge, comes from the fact that God had already announced centuries beforehand that Israel would ask for a king and that the kings would come from the line of Judah:

    “Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall bow down before you. Judah is a lion’s cub; from the prey, my son, you have gone up. He stooped down; he crouched as a lion and as a lioness; who dares rouse him? The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until tribute comes to him; and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples. Binding his foal to the vine and his donkey’s colt to the choice vine, he has washed his garments in wine and his vesture in the blood of grapes. His eyes are darker than wine, and his teeth whiter than milk.” Genesis 49:8-12 ESV

    “When you come to the land that the LORD your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, ‘I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,’ you may indeed set a king over you whom the LORD your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the LORD has said to you, ‘You shall never return that way again.’ And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold. And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, approved by the Levitical priests. And it shall be with him, and he shall read in it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God by keeping all the words of this law and these statutes, and doing them, that his heart may not be lifted up above his brothers, and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, either to the right hand or to the left, so that he may continue long in his kingdom, he and his children, in Israel.” Deuteronomy 17:14-20

    And, just as God had predicted, Israel did ask for a king during the days of the prophet Samuel:

    “When Samuel became old, he made his sons judges over Israel. The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. Yet his sons did not walk in his ways but turned aside after gain. They took bribes and perverted justice. Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah and said to him, ‘Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations.’ But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, ‘Give us a king to judge us.’ And Samuel prayed to the LORD. And the LORD said to Samuel, ‘Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. According to all the deeds that they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you. Now then, obey their voice; only you shall solemnly warn them and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.’ So Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking for a king from him. He said, ‘These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots. And he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his servants. He will take the tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and to his servants. He will take your male servants and female servants and the best of your young men and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves. And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.’ But the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel. And they said, ‘No! But there shall be a king over us, that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.’ And when Samuel had heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the ears of the LORD. And the LORD said to Samuel, ‘Obey their voice and make them a king.’ Samuel then said to the men of Israel, ‘Go every man to his city.’ 1 Samuel 8:1-22

    What the foregoing shows is that God wasn’t caught by surprise when Israel asked for a king, since he had already prophesied that this was what they were going to do, nor was he surprised by Saul’s rebellion. We know that he wasn’t caught off guard by what Saul did since God had already stated that the kings would come from the line of Judah, and yet Saul was from the tribe of Benjamin!

    “Now the day before Saul came, the LORD had revealed to Samuel: ‘Tomorrow about this time I will send to you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over my people Israel. He shall save my people from the hand of the Philistines. For I have seen my people, because their cry has come to me.’ When Samuel saw Saul, the LORD told him, ‘Here is the man of whom I spoke to you! He it is who shall restrain my people.’ Then Saul approached Samuel in the gate and said, ‘Tell me where is the house of the seer?’ Samuel answered Saul, ‘I am the seer. Go up before me to the high place, for today you shall eat with me, and in the morning I will let you go and will tell you all that is on your mind. As for your donkeys that were lost three days ago, do not set your mind on them, for they have been found. And for whom is all that is desirable in Israel? Is it not for you and for all your father’s house?’ Saul answered, ‘Am I not a Benjaminite, from the least of the tribes of Israel? And is not my clan the humblest of all the clans of the tribe of Benjamin? Why then have you spoken to me in this way?’” 1 Samuel 9:15-21 ESV

    Thus, Saul wasn’t destined to rule permanently as king, but only temporarily until the one whom God had decreed would rule from the tribe of Judah was ready:

    “Yet the LORD God of Israel chose me from all my father’s house to be king over Israel forever. For he chose Judah as leader, and in the house of Judah my father’s house, and among my father’s sons he took pleasure in me to make me king over all Israel. And of all my sons (for the LORD has given me many sons) he has chosen Solomon my son to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel. He said to me, ‘It is Solomon your son who shall build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father. I will establish his kingdom forever if he continues strong in keeping my commandments and my rules, as he is today.’” (1 Chronicles 28:4-7)

  28. The analogy of God being like earthly ‘Parents’ to their children, in guiding them to the good things and good ways of life, must first be understood, that it WAS/IS* God who set the example for us to follow HIM* in this regard.

    Secondly, the creative act of God, with Adam was PERFECT* Adam WAS PERFECT* morally, unlike the rest of us, who were/are ALL conceived IN SIN*

    ‘Behold, I WAS brought forth in INIQUITY* And in SIN* my mother conceived me.” (Psa. 51: 5 Emphasis added).

    What is been said here, is that because ALL of us inherited our SIN nature FROM Adam, which intrinsically ,congentially, indwells, and IS* innately a part of our ‘spiritual’ FALLEN SIN* nature, THAT from the very moment we are CONCEIVED in our mother’s womb, we ARE* SINNERS* and are brought FORTH* born in SIN*

    We SIN, because we ARE* SINNERS*, not the other way around, that we become sinners, after we have committed sin.

    But, this IS exactly the opposite to what happened to Adam, he WAS NOT created with a sin nature, he was created PERFECT MORALLY, and his Loving, Merciful, heavenly Father, made him brilliant from the start, Adam was NOT created as a ‘child’ in the physical, bilological, mental, psychological, sense that we are born with and into, then have to grow up, bit by bit, have to be taught, nursed and nurtured by our parents, etc, etc, with Adam, from the beginning, he WAS a fully, awesomely Created human being,

    So that, when God spoke to Adam, as a Loving Father would, He was NOT speaking to some, little, immature child, like we do with our children, He was speaking to a brilliantly created, PEFRECTLY MORAL man, an entirely different situation to our parent/child, SIN STAINED reality!

  29. I am convinced that TB loves to hear himself talk. He can have very long conversations by himself with him asking the questions and answering them. So all of you who are responding to him is wasting your time because all of it is lost on him. This is his Hyde park bench folks.

  30. Terence M. Blackett | June 17, 2011 at 10:06 AM |

    @ TECHIE*

    The ANALOGY* is only flawed in your estimation…

    …….and that sir, is your opinion*.

  31. Terence, this Calvinist theology, especially the ‘predestination’ concept, that God predestined who He wanted to be Saved, before they were born, and likewise predestined those others to Hell, before they were born, in His eternal decrees, IS* the most unscriptural nonsense one could ever read.

    I truly love and appreciate my Calvinist/Baptist brothers, for the most part, their theology is very good, BUT, when it comes to this ‘predestination’ of the wicked lost, and Saved, before their were even born, that most certainly IS NOT the God of the Bible.

    ‘WHOSOEVER, believes, (repents, and sincerely receives) Jesus as Savior and Lord, WILL BE SAVED” Includes ALL without DISTINCTION*, not ALL without EXCEPTION*!

  32. Man’s desire to know the origins of the Universe and all that dwell therein have always been pivotal in our minds, We are quizzical and suspicious beings . We are not content not to Know .So we pretend to know even if it defies logic. There couldn’t be a better demonstration than the Story of Adam and Eve .

  33. @ Zoe
    @BT, my friend, I can’t hear ya, wuh happen man, ya gone fuh a ‘Bush Bath’ to consult wid de ‘BBL’
    Bush Tea has a job, and does it conscientiously like everything else Bushie does….

    Zoe, you must be aware of the teacher’s maxim which says that there are some key hints to tell when someone does not know that they do not know…
    1 – They never admit it
    2 – They give long ‘answers’ laced with Greek, Latin and bible quotations
    3- They resort to insulting and aggressive language.

    The Bushman has nothing to prove; no interest in converting anyone; and nothing to gain from disproving any beliefs that you or anyone may hold.

    Bushie’s ONLY hope is that people like yourself would open your mind to the slight possibility that your particular theology may NOT be the correct one among the thousands of different variants out there.

    Those anomalies in your own bible to which the Bushman likes to refer are actually red flags that are designed for just such a purpose, but you may feel free to ignore them and Bushie..

  34. @ Technician
    The analogy is not flawed, just not fully developed. Indeed there is no better analogy possible….

    As a parent, your correct role is not to ‘protect your children from all possible harm’, it is to raise and educate them to the level where they are capable of making wise, productive and mature decisions about their own welfare, and are benefits to the wider society….this involved some risks.

    When you allow them to go out to play, give them chores, set rules for them and sometimes discipline them, it is all in the effort to make them into successful adults.

    If one of your children develops a fetish for sticking his finger into electrical sockets – will you cover all sockets in your home, at school, at relatives, neighbors etc…?
    NO!! you will do whatever is necessary – up to and including a good caning if necessary – BECAUSE YOU LOVE that child and want him to succeed.

    Why would God put the tree of knowledge in the garden?
    …for the very same reason you would not remove all the electrical outlets wherever your child goes…or keep that child locked up at home.
    God seeks to encourage the education and development of a mature,, productive human being who is WISE enough and MATURE enough to CHOOSE not to push his finger in the plug …. or to eat of the forbidden tree.

    Of course some ‘wufless’ children will stick things in plugs, do drugs, rebel etc, ….but to NOT have the tree would be to remove free choice and to REMOVE any possibility of some MATURING and GROWING in wisdom and understanding….it would be like locking all your children safely away in your well protected home -away from all possible harm…. Problem is they will all still be ‘children’ at age 70….

  35. @ BT, All of your your flimsy excuses, just will not cut it, in the absence of being able to offer any sound, Biblically coherent refutation, premised on established Hermeneutics, and sound exegesis, you come with ‘Reherring’ typed Strawmanized folly.

    It remains true, that ‘The structure of justification, in defending any propositional TRUTH claim, IS* coherence, coherence IS* our sole criteria for TRUTH.”

  36. @Bush Tea :: June 17, 2011 at 9:49 PM: “Why would God put the tree of knowledge in the garden? …for the very same reason you would not remove all the electrical outlets wherever your child goes…or keep that child locked up at home. God seeks to encourage the education and development of a mature,, productive human being who is WISE enough and MATURE enough to CHOOSE not to push his finger in the plug …. or to eat of the forbidden tree.

    Hear, hear!!!!

    But, I would argue, the occasional nibble at the “forbidden tree” can be useful for enlightenment for those who are strong enough to stand up (alone) to the repercussions of doing so….

  37. But Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens to live in, and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place even to lay his head.”

  38. The busshman has lost his bearings again. Am i to believe that a parents first instinct is not to protect their children even after giving them all the rules. Even the animals do everything possible to protect their siblings. A parents First and foremost INSTINCT is to PROTECT.Why do you think children all seem to think that the parent is always interfering with their lives. Well i don’t know of any parent who would sit idly by and watch their children stick their finger in a socket, I know many parents would cover that socket to avoid the child harming itself.But then again they are not “GOD”

  39. @ CH
    ….But, I would argue, the occasional nibble at the “forbidden tree” can be useful for enlightenment
    LOL. A common belief. ….Also explains why we have so many drug addicts -even when we can all see the likely consequences of becoming addicted ….
    What would you want for your son/daughter….?

    @ ac
    …thought you were finished with the busshman….?
    If you do not get the difference between a parents ROLE (which is what was written) and a parents INSTINCT (which you are talking about) then it is no wonder that Bushie cannot follow your logic….

    ….but your enthusiasm is admirable…

  40. @ Zoe
    “It remains true, that ‘The structure of justification, in defending any propositional TRUTH claim, IS* coherence, coherence IS* our sole criteria for TRUTH.”
    What coherence what??!! you mean conformity to your particular theology however ridiculous the logic….

    Where do you get these things from Mr Zoe? BT finds you truly amazing – because, with your great knowledge of the Bible it is shocking how you (of all people) seem to so often come to conclusions that are opposite to simple clear bible positions.

    Did you read Geraldine’s contribution above…?
    “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, EVEN HIS eternal power and GODHEAD; so that they are without excuse”. Romans 1:20
    Does that not in plain English say that the mysteries of truth can be CLEARLY seen in the everyday things around us ??? ….things like parenthood, like Lowdown’s farm; like the human family etc….
    What coherence what!!?

    Free up your mind Mr Zoe…

  41. bushman it is your prerogative not to reply as you so indicated previously . However I must say you do have a way with words! So my question would be which would be the driving force “Instinct”” or “Role” in order to set rules or activate a Role one must have a guideline to follow and our Instinct is what we used! Animals do not have the same ability and their Role is only through Instinct> without Instinct their is no ROLE.I am sorry my Advance way of thinking renders you heplessly!

  42. @ ac
    In other words Bushie . Instinct is what proples the mind in tellin us what to do. the role is secondary!
    Perfectly true ac…..
    …if you are talking about animals, children or immature grownups. But intelligent, mature human adults tend (to various extents), to manage to focus more on role than instinct….

    for example
    ..the Bush man’s instinct right now would be to ‘peppa’ you, but his role is to respect David’s blog and to try to see your perspective…however dim…LOL

  43. @BT, ‘Reason (rational, cogent, objective THINKING!) is necessary for Revelation, (i.e., God’s Word, FACTS, evidence, etc) to be) COHERENT,’ understood, discerned, as revealed in its proper context.

    This obviously CANNOT be grasped b the ‘natural’ man, (de pseuchikos anthropos) i.e., like yourself BT, et al, as the unspiritual man, does NOT receive, does NOT accept, rejects, refuses to accept, the things of the ‘Spirit’ (The Holy Spirit) of God. Why not? For they are FOOLISHNESS to him, nor can he know (understand) them, Why not? Because they are spiritually discerned. (I Cor. 2: 14,15),

    However, the man that is indwelt by The Holy Spirit of God, through Salvation IN* Christ alone, “These things we also speak NOT in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, (NO!NO!NO!) BUT which the HOLY SPIRIT teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” ( I Cor. 2: 13 Emphasis added.)

    Therefore, Jesus states:

    “The lamp of the body IS* the EYE, if therefore your eye is GOOD ( knows, understands, has received the things of God, through the Holy Spirit) your whole body will be full of LIGHT ( God’s Light of revelatory TRUTH) BUT, if your eye is BAD, your whole body will be full of DARKNESS. If therefore the light that IS in you IS* darkness, how great is that darkness.” ( Matt. 6:22 Emphasis added)

    BT, you are in darkness! Much spiritual DARKNESS!

  44. @ Zoe
    …OK – let’s follow your own logic for a bit…

    “One needs to be indwelt by God’s spirit in order to grasp these things…. “You are of course right about that….so
    What are the signs of God’s spirit as exemplified by such a person….

    Are these not things like love, patience, empathy, selflessness, and such characteristics…?
    Tell us how you demonstrate these signs Zoe….

    Does the word not also say that if one seeks FIRST the kingdom of heaven that “the other earthly things will be added unto you”….?
    …are you a millionaire?
    Do you have everything that you ever needed or wanted?

    How do we know that YOU benefit from the wisdom of God’s spirit unless we can clearly see the light of it’s fruits glowing from you….

    Be careful who you accuse of being in darkness -you may well be pointing most fingers back at yourself…

  45. Regarding Geraldine’s reference to Romans 1:20, that we can ‘understand’ the Godhead, has nothing to do with what BT, suggested, but when carefully read in its proper context, that is, from verses 19-32, it is a broad survey of the causes and consequences of heathenism. And, this section deals with and reveals that there is not ONLY a CRUDE* paganism*, an unblushing worship of man of graven images*; but, there is also a CULTURED* paganism, a worship by man of his OWN* godless imagination. As some did grovel at the foot of an IDOL* others worship at the shrine of an IDEAL* no different to modern day 21st century materialism, crass IDOLATRY, now minggled and deply embedded IN* cultural and moral RELATIVISM*

    In this didactic discourse, Plaul depicts THREE downward steps into paganism. First, there IS* willful BLINDNESS* a deliberate REJECTION of the TRUTH*. This is followed by WICKED BELIEFS* of either a rationalistic or religious* nature; just as we FIND here on BU. These, in turn lead to wanton behavior.

    God’s Witness IS* Unmistakable.

    Paul’s first point; “That which may be KNOWN of God IS* MANIFEST in them; for God has shewed IT* unto them.” (v. 19).

    God’s Witness IS* Universal.

    God has another WITNESS* to Himself besides the primeval revelation, a WITNESS* which CANNOT be corrupted by man – the WITNESS* of CREATION. Therefore, Paul declares:

    “The INVISIBLE things of Him FROM the CREATION of the WORLD, are CLEARLY* SEEN* being understood BY the THINGS* that are MADE* even His Eternal POWER* and Godhead. (v. 20 Emphasis added)

    Now, therefore, ALL men ARE* (1) Exposed to THIS* WITNESS* of CREATION (often called nature) God expects men to learn from NATURE* all around him, which REVEALS the TRUTH* of His eternal POWER and the TRUTH* of His Godhead.

    These TWO truths, properly learned, if mankind is honest, should result in a universal desire both to praise and to please God. The heavenly hosts ALONE, blazing in the sky, give ample TESTIMONY* to these two truths. And their witness IS* truly UNIVERSAL*.
    As Psalm 19 affirms that “the HEAVENS DECLARE the GLORY of God; and the firmament shew foth HIS* HANDIWORK…” There IS* NO* speech nor language, where their VOICE is NOT* heard.” Abraham Lincoln once said, “I can see how it might be possible fo a man to LOOK down upon the earth, and be an atheist, BUT I cannot conceive how he could LOOK UP into the HEAVENS and say there is no God.” One of the French revolutionaries boasted to a peasant; “We are going to pull down all that reminds you of God,” Said the peasant dryly, “Citizen, pull down the stars then.”

    However, Paul limits what can be learned about God from nature. Nature points to an Eternal, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omniprsent Crator, BUT, beynd that, its voice falters and fails. “There IS* a God” says nature, loudly and unmistakable, BUT, man NEEDS much more than that. Man NEEDS a a Personal* Redeemer, and nature CANNOT satisfy that need, for nature knows nothing of FORGIVENESS. Its rules are relentless and ruthless, visiting swift retribution on ALL infringement of its laws. It teaches no moral code. Nature has a voice, but it has no heart, and it offers NO solution to man’s greatest problem, that of SIN*. It makes no mention of a Savior. There can be no comparasion between God’s witness to Himself in Creation, and His WITNESS to Himself in Redemption. Creation will tell us somewhat of the work of His Hands. But, Calvary ALONE unveils His HEART.

    Yet, despite God’s unmistakable and UNIVERSAL* WITNESS*, some men still DENY the TRUTH, and become atheist; others sink still DEEPER, distort the TRUTH, and become idolaters. This is Paul’s next theme in the verses that follow on (vv. 21-25. (Exploring Romans, pp. 24, 25, 26, 27 Emphasis added.)

  46. @ Zoe

    …what Bush Tea told you about going on and on and on -and quoting scripture after scripture,….. and Greek….?

  47. @ BT, Once again, you are NOT* taking God’s Word, the Bible, in its entire and proper contextual teachings.

    You ask me, “Are not these things like love, patience, empathy, selflessness, such characteristics? Tell us how you demonstrate these signs.”

    Tell us Bush Tea, was not The Lord Jesus Christ, and His divinely Inspired Word, the Bible, tell us that HE WAS/IS* the personification of LOVE, patience, selflessness, and son on? Did He always go about peacefully, with patience, and emphaty, for everyone? Let us see from His Word, how HE* dealt with those that perverted the TRUTH.

    Let hear HIM* Jesus Christ, and His patience, love and empathy, for those who NEEDED to be told like it IS*.

    “But woe to you, scribes and Pharsees,….Woe to you BLIND guides…….FOOLS and BLIND…..BLIND Pharsees….. SERPENTS, brood of VIPERS! How can you escape the condemnation of HELL? (Matt. 23: 13, 16, 17, 33).

    Where these KIND, loving, patient oriented, emphatizing WORD, Bush Tea?

    Tell us BT, when Jesus said: “And He said to them, ‘Go TELL that FOX…(Herod) Luke 13:32), was that a nice thing to say? a Fox is a cunning animal, and Herod needed to be told the truth,, and JESUS called him a FOX! What that a loving, peacefull, thing to say?

    The Apostle Paul was probally the most Anointed one in the New Testament, after Jesus, he was used of God, and divinely Inspired to pen 2/3 of NT Scripture, wrote the most profound theological discourses EVER, led by the Holy Spirit, it was Paul who penned Gal 5:22, on the Fruit of the Holy Spirit, “…..love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control…..” Yetr, when there was need for stringing REBUKE, he did NOT hesitate to give it.

    “O FOOLISH Galations! Who has BEWITCHED you, that you should NOT obey the TRUTH….. ( Gal. 3: 1b Emphasis added).

    This was the same anointed Apostle of God, who no brings, a scathing REBUKE, in plain word, “O FOOLISH Galatians….”

    Again, when Paul needed to use appropriate language and words to describe, the ignorant, this he did, in divinely inspired and recorded Scripture, God’s Word, the Bible.

    “But if anyone is* IGNORANT* let him be IGNORANT*” ( I Cor. 14:m 38 Emphasis added).

    BT, you are a novice, when it comes to the FULL counsel of God’s Word, the Bible, you are constantly taking and lifting verses OUT of context, which then becomes a pretext, for your ignorance of IT*

    Oh, I almost forgot to answer you ignorant question re Matt 6:33, “Are you a millonaire.”

    BT, go and try and read this verse Matt 6:33, in its proper context, beginning at verse 25, to 34, and see if you can start to learn the meaning of ‘context’ and what Jesus said, about, “therefore do NOT worry about tomorrow…..” (v. 34).

  48. BT and while you are at it also try to read up on instinct and the way it helps all individuals make decisions . It is amazing how your kind of reasoning can become unreasonable. To think that only children and animals used instinct to make decisions is unbelievable. I suggest you take a class in psychology “Understanding the human mind and how it works”

  49. Thanks for the response to my question on God and his ability to repent. Unlike some I do not claim to know it all.

    However I do know that it is better to say a little and expose a little bit of ignorance than to say a great deal and exhibit an abundance of stupidity.

    My point is that any man, woman or child that believes everything written by any group of people, hundreds of years before them, without question, deserves what they get.


  50. @ MAAT

    “My point is that any man, woman or child that believes everything written by any group of people, hundreds of years before them, without question, deserves what they get…”


    That is the reason why “every MUS* study to show himself approved, for every workman MUST* be able to rightfully divide the word of truth”…

    So STUDY, READ & UNDERSTAND for yourself!!!

  51. @ ZOE, BUSHMAN et al

    Just a side comment to say that ALL* of you guys possess powerful minds… Just to read your thoughts is astounding (and where there is disagreement over points of DOCTRINE, CONTEXTUALIZATION etc) it is still a JOY* to read my fellow Barbadians ability to elucidate knowledge is nothing short of powerful…

    Good, frank, spirited discussion even if we haven’t reached common ground… At least we keep on trying when others have fallen by the wayside because they refuse to put on their (AS DAVID) says – “THEIR OXYGEN TANKS”…

  52. In the SPIRIT of Love! I would llike to wish all the Fathers who have inspired their children and have found it upon themselves to be “true Leaders’ and excellent examples and role model to their children “HAPPY AND A BLESSED FATHERS DAY! continue to do the work

  53. @Matt….”My point is that any man, woman or child that believes everything written by any group of people, hundreds of years before them, without question, deserves what they get.”

    Brilliantly stated!

  54. The furthest distant on this planet is not the 24901.55 miles (40075.16 kilometers) around the Equator but the distance from the HUMAN BRAIN* to the HUMAN HEART*…

    Yes ZOE – CORRECT!!!


  55. @ Zoe & Terence
    What SHS What??!!
    Maat may have a good point…. even things written in official documents, newspapers and on blogs like BU should be questioned, analyzed and assessed. but surely he can’t be suggesting that because something was written hundreds of years ago, it cannot be true today…
    Lots of things even written by ordinary men hundreds of years ago continue to be current standards – even literary and scientific principles….

    Also, Jesus said something very similar….Whosoever believe on me shall not perish…etc…. in other words, ‘..will get exactly what they deserve.”

    Finally, the Bushman has absolutely no regrets if his current situation is a result of believing (after serious questioning) what was written by these men hundreds of years ago….

  56. Hopefully the mature among us will always have questions and build belief into knowledge through experiences. When we were children we were led to believe that Santa and the tooth fairy were real, we could read about them in books. As we never experienced these things first hand we questioned them until we came to understand that the books and the people telling us about these characters were misleading us

    In this vein one could ask those who express total, unequivocal belief in the Bible to share with us their personal knowledge, through personal experience, of that which they proclaim to be true.

    Or do you simply believe the book?


  57. The Something “mat is speaking of is that which is written in the bible. BT surly you can’t be comparing literature of a hundred years which was found through archaeologist and proven scientifically to what is written in the bible. that in itself is ludicrous. No one has yet proven the Virgin Birth! and i am yet to read or hear of another such birth in our time!

  58. Centre of the Bible, God’s Word.

    This is pretty strage how it worked out this way. even if you are not religious, you should read this.

    Q. What is the shortest chapter in the Bible?
    A. Psalm 117.

    Q. What is the longest chapter in the Bible?
    A. Psalm 119.

    Q. Which chapter is IN* the centre of the Bible?
    A. Psalm 118.

    FACTS: There ARE 594 chapters before Psalm 118. there ARE 594 chapters after Psalm 118,. Add these numbers up and you get 1,188.

    Q. What is the centre verse in the Bible?
    A. Psalm 118:8

    Does this verse say something significant about God’s perfect will for our lives?

    The next time someone says they would like to find God’s perfect will for their lives, and they want to be in the centre of His will, just send them to the centre of His Word.

    Psalms 118:8 (NKJV)

    “It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.”

    Now, isn’t that odd how this worked out…OR, was God in the centre of it?

  59. @ Maat
    Bush Tea, for one, “expresses total, unequivocal belief in the Bible”, but will be the very first to tell you that Bushie’s personal knowledge, through personal experience, would be very unlikely to convince you that YOU should believe likewise.

    BT’s approach was to commence by presuming that the Bible story was nothing more than a church equivalent to the Santa Claus tale…The major difference being the admonition to “SEEK -and you are guaranteed to find”
    KNOCK – and the door shall be opened unto you” ; ASK -and it shall be given”

    All Bushie can tell you is THAT APPROACH WORKED FOR BT.
    The biggest challenge was the preconceived ideas (like the Santa Clause type tales – the Trinity concepts etc) which got in the way finding the truth that was sought,; of accepting the truths that were freely given; and even in choosing to knock on the door of knowledge….

    Why not take a genuine decision to seek to find the truth and open your mind to the promise that should you truly Ask, Seek and knock – you will know one way or the other…. and then keep FAR from those trying to push their particular theology down your throat….LOL

  60. @ Zoe
    If you REALLY want to demonstrate the supernatural nature of the Bible you should explain to the BU family the recently discovered bible codes; – where computer analysis have turned up coded messages in the bible related to current and apparently future global issues……

    Worth a google and some research….

    Advanced beings created our world for a logical purpose and they inspired the bible to outline their strategic plans to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear… Simple as that.

  61. @BT My personal experiences prove to me that there is God. With no shadow of a doubt and like you, the fairy tale aspects of some stories cannot cause me to doubt my experiences.

    I like and liken your analogy of a door to the Bible as a gateway leading to a path. There is a light at the end of the path and the way to get to the light is by making the journey. If you stand at the gate, studying it, working out the intricacies of it’s design and invitation you will not make the journey, but simply be aware of it. The gate need not be perfect and one does not worship the door.

    One does not have to draw a mountain of faith from the Bible to start the journey, one does not need the burden of the door on the path to the light, the way is lit and becomes brighter and clearer with every step in the right direction.

    Here’s one for you. They say that the blind cannot lead the blind, because both would fall into a ditch (or something). Well I have seen different. More than once I have been traveling along Bay Street and witnessed a blind person with a white stick, leading another blind person without a stick. What can you make of that?


  62. well will wonders ever cease! now the Bushman has conveniently asked Zoe for divine interference on his behalf. . Coded messages! LOL

  63. @maat, You cite two ‘physically’ blind people on Bay St, one leading the other, that’s not the same thing as Jesus’ teaching in Matt. 15: 1-20, where, again, reading the entire discourse in this section (vv.1-20) gives the ‘contextual’ understanding of Jesus answer to His disciples:

    “But He answered and said, ‘Every plant (i.e., person) which My heavenly Father has not planted will be UPROOTED.” (v.13)

    “Let them alone, (i.e., Pharisses, Scribes, et al false prophets, teachers) they are BLIND leaders of the BLIND. And if the BLIND leads the BLIND, both will fall into a ditch.” (v.14)

    Obviously and clearly, Jesus was specifically referring to the Pharisees and Scribes, whose ‘spiritual’ BLINDNESS* which did NOT allow them to SEE* PERCEIVE* and recognize HIM* as Messiah, He also spoke about FALSE prophets, in chapter 7: 15-20, who grew exponentially after the birth of the True Apostolic Church, and have continued to multiply right up until today, through the world, and they come in a variety of shades, ALL of them, essentially denying the central CORE* NT doctrines of the Deity* of Christ, that HE* IS* the eternal Son of God, the Only Saviour and Lord, that Salvtion IS* by GRACE* through FAITH* in HIM*,(Eph. 2:8-9)) not good works, ritualism, and dead formulism, (Rom. 3:20-24;4:5,16, Gal 3:11).

    The TRUTH Shall Make You Free.

    “Then Jesus said to those Jews who BELIEVED* Him. ‘If you ABIDE* (trust, keep to) My Word, you are My disciples indeed. AND you shall KNOW* the TRUTH* and the TRUTH* shall make you FREE*.” ( John 8: 31-32 Emphasis added).

    KNOW, is from ‘ginosko’ Compare ‘prognosis’ ‘gnomic,’ ‘gnomon,’ ‘gnostic’ To PERCEIVE, UNDERSTAND, RECOGNIZE, gain KNOWLEDGE, realize, come to KNOW* Ginosko is a knowledge that has an INCEPTION* a progress, and an attainment, it IS* the recognition of TRUTH* by personal experience. (Word Wealth).

    They are any number of seekers of truth, knowledge, over the ages, who have used Jesus imperative teaching from Matt. 7: 7,8) “Ask….Knock…Seek….” BUT, some of these seekers, have been terribly deceived by Satan, as they DID NOT Ask…Knock…..(Nor) Seek at the TRUE and ONLY DOOR* WAY* JESUS, hence Satan has cleaverly given and FED them, with, yes, pieces, and bits of truth, ever so WICKEDLY, laced in FALSITY, LIES, DECEPTION, and damnable heresy an FALSE doctrine.

  64. The Historic, Judaeo/Christian Worldview, unlike any other religious/secular World view IS* founded, established IN* and by Almighty God, divinely recorded in His Word, the Bible, overwhelmingly confirmed by ‘The Bibliographical Test’ ‘The Internal Evidence Test’ ‘The External Evidence Test’ and ‘Its Confirmation by Archaeology’ as to its reliability, and has stood up to the rigors of such examination, unparalleled with any other document of antiquity.

    Tons of literatue, from not only the Historical perspective, but from a “Legal” evidential perspective, in other words, based on ‘Evidence’ as presented in a Court of Law, have been carefully examined by some of the most eminent Jurists, Judges, brilliant Legal minds, regarding the NT documents, as to its veracity, truthfulness, trustworthiness, and they, Legally, Historically, and Logically, conclude, that it simply, CANNOT be refuted, by any honest mind.

    Now, regarding the TESTIMONY* WITNESS* of the VAST multiplied Hundreds , and Hundreds of MILLIONS, of genuine ‘believers’ those who WERE ‘spiritually’ regenerated, Justified, Born Again, FROM the Apostolic era, with Jesus, the actual ‘EYEWITNESSES’ who where WITH* HIM* and those who followed on, Century after Century, across every know ethnic, and cultural background, throughout every country, and right up until TODAY, in Russia, China, the Middle East, yes, even Muslims, Hindus, in India and Pakistan, are being LIBERATED from the bondage of ‘Religion’ to a Personal, Living, REAL, vibriant, relationship, with THE LORD JESUS CHRIST; all across Africa, South America, large numbers of those who found NO peace or purpose in their dead religions* are coming ALIVE* for the first time, IN* BY* and THROUGH* The Lord Jesus Christ.

    I would NOT exchange the unspeakable PEACE* JOY* PURPOSE* that Jesus has brought to my LIFE,, for ANYTHING in this world, AND, this also, IS* the consistant WITNESS* and TESTIMONY* of my Brothers and Sisters, IN* Christ Jesus from around EVERY country in the world, right up until TODAY.

    BTW, the foregoing is just scratching the surface of the REALITY of the absolute TRUTH, re Almighty God, His Word, the Bible, His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, AND, that what HE* Promised* WE can resolutely, WITHOUT one shadow of any doubt, NONE, say, shout LOUDLY, IS* TRUE!!!!

  65. but me know them hate me in babylon
    but them just can’t stop me jah jah land
    but me know them hate me
    but i have worked and sweat for what I own

  66. Bush Tea | June 20, 2011 at 6:22 AM |
    @ ac
    .are you more than 16 years old?
    Naughty Naughty
    No Bush Pie For You
    One Night Of Sin Is Wrong
    Zoe Will Tell You From Knowledge

  67. Some have been scarred by their experiences in church by the breach of trust that God placed in Priests when they systemically and ritually sexually abused them and Knowledge of these perversions by the perpetrators were also covered up by the Church(es).

  68. Everybody knows that there is a book called “The HOLY Bible. there is no doubt or question about that. However some of what is written in it cannot be proven or agreed upon by the brightest of minds. even theologians would attest to that. The literature is there for all to see . THere is absolutely no denying. but the main ingredient that seals it all together is missing i.e PROOF

  69. @ AC

    Do you have PROOF* of the INVISIBLE* world?

    Do you know where the WIND* come from?

    Has any man seen GOD THE FATHER* and lived?

    Can you fathom how JESUS CHRIST* (The Very Incarnation of God he Creator) could become HUMAN FLESH*?

    Is not the HUMAN BRAIN* still a MYSTERY* to modern quantum science?

    What about DEATH*? How do you explain it that makes some kind of sense to the natural man?

    The list of questions is endless…

  70. Crede, ut intelligas: ‘Believe in order that you may UNDERSTAND.” Augustine’s dictum concerning the relationship of belief and authority, to reason, from his Sermon 43.7 and 9.

    Credo, ut intelligam: “I believe in order that I might UNDERSTAND.” Anselm’s statement of his premise concerning the relationship of faith and reason from “Proslogion, I; a conscious echo of Augustine’s ‘Crede, ut intelligas.

    “Now FAITH IS* the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE* of things not seen.”
    (Heb. 11:1 Emphasis added).

    ‘Faith IS* the title-deed of things hoped for,’ (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabularly, etc). ‘The proving of things not seen’ (pragmaton elegchos ou bleomenon).

    “But without FAITH it is impossible to please God, for He who comes to Him, must BELIEVE* that He IS* and that He IS* a rewarder of those who DILIGENTLY seek HIM.” (Heb. 11: 6 Emphasis added).

    Exegesis: ‘Impossible’ (adunaton ). Strong word as in 6:4, 18. See Rom. 8:8 for the same idea with ‘aresai ( aresk0, Gal. 1:10) .’Must believe’ ( pisteusai dei). Moral necessity to have faith (trust, pisteuo). This is true in business also, (banks, for instance). “That HE* IS* (hoti estin). The very existence of God is a matter of intelligent FAITH (Rom. 1:19ff.) so that men are left without EXCUSE. “He IS* a rewarder’ (misthapodotes ginetai). Rather, ” becomes a rewarder” ( present middle indicative of ‘ginomai’, not of ‘eimi). (Word Pictures, Vol. V, pp. 418, 420, 421 ).

  71. TB but the WIND does present itself in varies ways. and it can also be measured through speed and time. Although it is intangible it demonstrates itself in many ways that people could understand fore.g we can feel it,,also see its awesome power .

    REF. Can you fathom how Jesus Christ {the very incarnated God the creator could be come HUMAN FLESH.Glad you ask because that is the very question which I have been asking in some of my post! be interesting to hear yourtake on it

  72. @ AC

    Somethings MUST* remain in the domain of “MYSTERY”…

    How THE FATHER*** was able to do with MARY* what HE* did is beyond my pay-grade my dear friend…

    Maybe ZOE* can offer some teaching on this as he possess the ability to expound on (ALL) these areas…

    I could conjure a few theories and add a dash of Scripture for good measure to prop up my thesis but it still would not go any distance in adequately answering the question posed – for ONLY* God knows the MIND* of GOD* in this respect…

    As Christians we accept by FAITH* and move on…

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