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Cynthia McKinney, in Tripoli (Repost)

 While serving on the House International Relations Committee from 1993 to 2003, it became clear to me that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) was an anachronism.  Founded in 1945 at the end of World War II, NATO was founded by the United States in response to the Soviet Union’s survival as a Communist state.  NATO was the U.S. insurance policy that capitalist ownership and domination of European, Asian, and African economies would continue.  This also would ensure the survival of the then-extant global apartheid.

NATO is a collective security pact wherein member states pledge that an attack upon one is an attack against all.  Therefore, should the Soviet Union have attacked any European Member State, the United States military shield would be activated.  The Soviet Response was the Warsaw Pact that maintained a “cordon sanitaire” around the Russian Heartland should NATO ever attack.  Thus, the world was broken into blocs which gave rise to the “Cold War.”

Avowed “Cold Warriors” of today still view the world in these terms and, unfortunately, cannot move past Communist China and an amputated Soviet Empire as enemy states of the U.S. whose moves any where on the planet are to be contested.  The collapse of the Soviet Union provided an accelerated opportunity to exert U.S. hegemony in an area of previous Russian influence.  Africa and the Eurasian landmass containing former Soviet satellite states and Afghanistan and Pakistan along with the many other “stans” of the region, have always factored prominently in the theories of “containment” or “rollback” guiding U.S. policy up to today.

With that as background, last night’s NATO rocket attack on Tripoli is inexplicable.  A civilian metropolitan area of around 2 million people, Tripoli sustained 22 to 25 bombings last night, rattling and breaking windows and glass and shaking the foundation of my hotel.

I left my room at the Rexis Al Nasr Hotel and walked outside the hotel and I could smell the exploded bombs. There were local people everywhere milling with foreign journalists from around the world. As we stood there more bombs struck around the city. The sky flashed red with explosions and more rockets from NATO jets cut through low cloud before exploding.

I could taste the thick dust stirred up by the exploded bombs. I immediately thought about the depleted uranium munitions reportedly being used here–along with white phosphorus.  If depleted uranium weapons were being used what affect on the local civilians?

Women carrying young children ran out of the hotel. Others ran to wash the dust from their eyes.  With sirens blaring, emergency vehicles made their way to the scene of the attack.  Car alarms, set off by the repeated blasts, could be heard underneath the defiant chants of the people.

Sporadic gunfire broke out and it seemed everywhere around me.  Euronews showed video of nurses and doctors chanting even at the hospitals as they treated those injured from NATO’s latest installation of shock and awe.  Suddenly, the streets around my hotel became full of chanting people, car horns blowing, I could not tell how many were walking, how many were driving.  Inside the hotel, one Libyan woman carrying a baby came to me and asked me why are they doing this to us?

Whatever the military objectives of the attack (and I and many others question the military value of these attacks) the fact remains the air attack was launched a major city packed with hundreds of thousands of civilians.

I did wonder too if the any of the politicians who had authorized this air attack had themselves ever been on the receiving end of laser guided depleted uranium munitions. Had they ever seen the awful damage that these weapons do a city and its population? Perhaps if they actually been in the city of air attack and felt the concussion from these bombs and saw the mayhem caused they just might not be so inclined to authorize an attack on a civilian population.

I am confident that NATO would not have been so reckless with human life if they had called on to attack a major western city. Indeed, I am confident that would not be called upon ever to attack a western city. NATO only attacks (as does the US and its allies) the poor and underprivileged of the 3rd world.

Only the day before, at a women’s event in Tripoli, one woman came up to me with tears in her eyes:  her mother is in Benghazi and she can’t get back to see if her mother is OK or not.  People from the east and west of the country lived with each other, loved each other, intermarried, and now, because of NATO’s “humanitarian intervention,” artificial divisions are becoming hardened.  NATO’s recruitment of allies in eastern Libya smacks of the same strain of cold warriorism that sought to assassinate Fidel Castro and overthrow the Cuban Revolution with “homegrown” Cubans willing to commit acts of terror against their former home country.  More recently, Democratic Republic of Congo has been amputated de facto after Laurent Kabila refused a request from the Clinton Administration to formally shave off the eastern part of his country.  Laurent Kabila personally recounted the meeting at which this request and refusal were delivered.  This plan to balkanize and amputate an African country (as has been done in Sudan) did not work because Kabila said “no” while Congolese around the world organized to protect the “territorial integrity” of their country.

I was horrified to learn that NATO allies (the Rebels) in Libya have reportedly lynched, butchered and then their darker-skinned compatriots after U.S. press reports labeled Black Libyans as “Black mercenaries.”  Now, tell me this, pray tell.  How are you going to take Blacks out of Africa?  Press reports have suggested that Americans were “surprised” to see dark-skinned people in Africa.  Now, what does that tell us about them?

The sad fact, however, is that it is the Libyans themselves, who have been insulted, terrorized, lynched, and murdered as a result of the press reports that hyper-sensationalized this base ignorance.  Who will be held accountable for the lives lost in the bloodletting frenzy unleashed as a result of these lies?

Which brings me back to the lady’s question:  why is this happening?  Honestly, I could not give her the educated reasoned response that she was looking for.  In my view the international public is struggling to answer “Why?”.

What we do know, and what is quite clear, is this:  what I experienced last night is no “humanitarian intervention.”

Many suspect it is about all the oil under Libya. Call me skeptical but I have to wonder why the combined armed sea, land and air forces of NATO and the US costing billions of dollars are being arraigned against a relatively small North African country and we’re expected to believe its in the defense of democracy.

What I have seen in long lines to get fuel is not “humanitarian intervention.”  Refusal to allow purchases of medicine for the hospitals is not “humanitarian intervention.”  What is most sad is that I cannot give a cogent explanation of why to people now terrified by NATO’s bombs, but it is transparently clear now that NATO has exceeded its mandate, lied about its intentions, is guilty of extra-judicial killings–all in the name of “humanitarian intervention.”  Where is the Congress as the President exceeds his war-making authority?  Where is the “Conscience of the Congress?”

For those of who disagree with Dick Cheney’s warning to us to prepare for war for the next generation, please support any one who will stop this madness.  Please organize and then vote for peace.  People around the world need us to stand up and speak out for ourselves and them because  Iran and Venezuela are also in the cross-hairs.  Libyans don’t need NATO helicopter gunships, smart bombs, cruise missiles, and depleted uranium to settle their differences.  NATO’s “humanitarian intervention” needs to be exposed for what it is with the bright, shining light of the truth.

As dusk descends on Tripoli, let me prepare myself with the local civilian population for some more NATO humanitarianism.

Stop bombing Africa and the poor of the world!


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201 responses to “A Feast Of Blood For NATO Last Night”


  1. Down goes BAFBFP err…. Frazier


  2. I hear you BAFBFP

    No mas….no mas


  3. BTW Those Cubans who fled were all the better for it. They have acquired much political power under “The Great Satan” called by you meaning america . they have the freedom to speak out against the government contrary to what would have happen to them if the same is done in Cuba. All these mugaffe dictators tlk a good game of propaganda under the disguise of hating america while on the same hand accumlating massive wealth while the poor eat of the crumbs which falls from their tables.


  4. @BAFBFP
    CS High???? Dont tell me you went to Waterford Primary! Sounding so. Anyway, I am quite fully briefed on the false flags et al that you reference.

    Singapore IS a BENEVOLENT DICTATORSHIP masquarading as a democracy. I have visited Sing on 9 occassions inthe last 30yrs and can attest that at least90% of the population there are very much happier than Cubans! On every occasion during my 4 visits to Cuba I have been for long walks on the beach and chatted with locals and having chatted for a long period, the beach Police will appear over the horizon and the Cubans say I cant be seen talking with visitors! Why so? Never once in my 9 trips to Sing averaging 2.5 weeks /trip did I ever here one person say anything about Secret Police. Further people of several racial origins, not only the dominant (76%) Chinese, have often expressed their good fortune to have born in that country. The leaders will not entertain a strong opposition due to historical factors steming from the 1960-70s when Communism was a serious threat. I can absolutely GUARANTEE anyone that Singapore is far more successful with plenty jobs, food, best education system on Earth, good medicine(highest density of Drs and Dentists anywhere) THAN ANY of the Countries you have cited. Very repressive NO WAY!

    SODAMNINSANE was a Sunni Tyrant representing at most the 22% of that country with like Sunni leanings. 62% are Shia and the 2 groups HATE each other. When the Allies vanquished theBathists there is no doubt the Shias and even many Sunnis were very happy. The occupation maybe another matter.

    Egyptians are POOR! Even though the Americans send them $500MN gratis every year to play nice with Isreal. So Mubarak was a sell out, as he did little to Isreal, and enjoyed his burgeoning wealth with his cronies while his people suffered and made no progress.

    I dont accept the Monarchies, or view them positively, too much info from close friends and family who have lived close to the Royals.

    I dont support EMBARGOES for the simple reason that the politicians always eat well etc and the poor peeps suffer (And UN big ups sell favours/ products). Cuba’s economy was propped up by the USSR for obvious reasons ie to spite the USA from 90 miles away. Cuba like I admitted previously is better than the others you quote and did achieve some things for SHOW! What really matters to peeps in the street? Jobs ie $$$$, opportunity for family, FOOD, education et al so I judge successful Nations based on these factors NOT just a few poster achievements. Cuba would have been better under the Singapore leadership style!

    Your paranoia point was a cute aside from the licks you quite correctly anticipated with this reply!

    We agree on Jimmy! But you should note that he confessed to having SEEN UFOs!(he is a Nuke Engineer) He tried to investigate and was told that was NOT within his perview.

    Get serious about OBL! Why would a billionaire live in a freaking cave? Walk the Hindu Kush, one of the MOST INHOSPITABLE places on Earth! Hope your Psyche Consult doesnt see that or you are going to have your dosage 2x. (couldnt help muyself)

    Housing the masses of lower income is best accomplished by the Singapore strategy, build Condos solid but economically and then RENT TO OWN for 20-25yrs to the family. Works because of pride of ownership, doesnt impact financial markets negatively. Yes in Sing the have Socialised Capitalism like Japan! Sing Govt reserves the right to discipline transgressors who try to destroy the said condos, common facilities etc.

    My opinion is that the vast majority of politicians are as you say, corrupt, liars, thiefs, money grabbers, and dont give a RODENTS RECTUM for the peeps in the street.
    The OBL Gang may have good reasons to hate their leaders and the West for befriending them. BUT when they decide to bomb places where my friends and family live then I have no choice but support ERADICATION. The radical fundamentalist Islamists will cause much death in the years ahead mainly because the Western leadership are far too accomadating and refuse to repatriate the crazies. I am shocked that radical Mosques have NOT been blown up already. This type of girlie approach just emboldens these Vestal Virgin seekers. Once properly identified they should have their objectives of exiting our realm satiated.


  5. Moneybrain

    Waterford Primary? In the famous words of Rafiki of Lion King fame … “Wrong again!!” Look let me take you up one point at a time, and that is only because dey got two gypsy people listening to what we talking ’bout and want to but in.

    You Moneybrain, have made the qualified and authorized declaration that Lee Kuan Yew was a “benevolent” dictator…! (BTW it would not have been wise to get caught with a spliff or chewing gum or blowing your nose in Yews sanitized public spaces. I know that the death penalty was popular but there was a reason for cutting peoples hands off as well but I can’t remember). Muammar Gaddafi built the world’s largest irrigation project to supply water to his people and was at the forefront of a movement for the United States of Africa. Can you not spare a similar sentiment oh great judger of men? Sadam Hussein ran the best economy of all the Arab and of course ACP states in the eighties before the US started their occupation campaign. He was a Suni but he kept a secular cabinet. Moneybrain you purposely ignored the fact that his Deputy and foreign Minister was a Christian. Now surely you could spare a little clap for dat too! He did a far better job at keeping radical factions apart and in piece than anyone before or since. His soldiers may be wrongfully accused of killing over sixty thousand Kurds but the US and UK have undoubtedly killed over a million and a half Iraqis in decade and a half of occupation. Now come on man, can I have a condemnation from you?!

    “When the allies vanquished …” through a systematic process of torture of Iraqis at Guantanamo and later through rendition, and what allies? Are you referring to the “Coalition of the Willing” that even the sham that is the UN and its puppet, the Black embarrassment himself Kofi Annan refused to sanction?

    Let me skip straight to Cuba before the sleep catches up with me. So the USSR propped up a country with and export crop. China is propping up the US with its “investment” in US debt. Barbados was propped for years by preferential arrangements with Europe. Barbados is still being propped up with “Direct Foreign Investment”(Wholesaling of land). The President of Cuba quickly realized that he was being used by the Russians and moved to the position that the country enjoys today and that is doing business with just about everybody in the world except its northern neighbor.

    OBL’s father was the billionaire. I believe OBL was one of fifty children the one with a conscience and a desire to see his region free of European occupation. Sir again I say to you, if you must blame the senseless bombing of “places where my friends and family live” look to the countries that use tax payers dollars to maintain Psy Ops and Black Ops and Special Forces divisions in their arsenal of propaganda initiatives.

    This War on International Terror is a sham… (this is surely not what the Lybia campaign is about) You went to Crumpton Street High, so you would have benefited from the greater share of the public’s purse towards your education. Don’t disappoint me with a challenge on this tonight.


  6. Great thought provoking exchanges Moneybrain and BAF.

    Both of you have made some excellent points, albeit the truth is somewhere there…in the middle of the room (Lol), in the common area that MoneyB likes anyway.

    The two glaring factors, even IF we took everything at face value, that cannot be ignored, are as David says, the contrdictory and hypocritical treatment of verying countries i.e. as I said before Saudi is well known for being the largest funder of Islamic groups, possibly terrorism in there, how about that?

    Then too, David is right on China. Yes, maybe China has not butchered anyone in a while, but that is purely because Chinese laymen have better sense than to frequent Tiananmen Square with demonstration on their minds.

    That makes two large trading partners in which cases the West has conveniently put aside the civil rights issue, let alone democracy, one being a fully ‘Committee’ run totalitarian state and the other a Monarchial totalitarian state.

    Oops, I thought we were after broadening democracy?

    Or is the goalpost on that field different? Obviously.

    The second issue is again, the issue of national sovereignty.

    Again and contrary to what Sargeant is alleging, it is not a red herring and is integral to ANY issue of internaitonal jurisdiction, the Hague, UN should be the first stop in international ‘interventions’, not the last.

    Particularly, note well that the Nato countries were not under attack from Libya, hence the one situation that could have caused their action pre Hague attendance or argument, is not there i.e. defence.

    This was purely an intervention in a sovereign country, hence the UN as a whole should have made the decision.

    If we sweep aside conventions set for this purpose, we have obliterated the protections and laws that were set to ensure that totalitarianism does not resurge.

    As it is, internaitonal conventions have been swept aside and this is not only just basically wrong and against all previous international understandings, it is highly dangerous.

    And yes Sargeant, this is no red herring and indeed, critical to the issue. That you cannot see this is mind-boggling.

    I done with that part of the discussion.

    Moving on now.

    Where to from here? Yes, I have already said that Iran was next in this carefully designed plan.

    The problem is, I suspect that the Iranian government is now well aware and will be no walkover.

    Note that the ‘think-tanks’ and media are now getting into the Iran action, this from al-arabiya:

    >US officials and a report by Chatham House, a prestigious British think tank, warn that Saudi Arabia’s efforts to maintain the regional status quo, refusal to recognize that the protests are fundamentally sparked by widespread political and economic discontent and insistence that Iran is at the root of all evil could provoke sectarian tension across the Middle East and Asia.

    The fears are further fuelled by Saudi efforts, disclosed by The Wall Street Journal, to rally Muslim nations across the Middle East and Asia to join an informal Arab alliance against Iran. Saudi officials have approached Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia and Central Asian states to lend diplomatic support and possibly military assistance to help stifle a majority Shiite revolt in Sunni-led Bahrain. >>

    So, the monarchy protecting another monarchy i.e Saudi / Bahrain?

    Yes, the ‘blame Iran’ game has started.

    But, with Iran having plenty of warning, if you think that this will not turn into a Middle East bloodbath if started, you are under-assessing the situation. Besides, Iran itself must be combing its streets for possible agents who may have the directive to stir up trouble.

    Maybe that is why the the pressure is now coming from the Saudis, from outside.

    Whomever started this game of tactical warfare, better know what they are doing………


  7. By the way, with the current Saudi move, do you not see something peculiar/ troubling?

    (Nato super-buddy) Saudi Arabia, seeking support from (Bin Laden harbouring, by fault or design) Pakistan, (Muslim extreme)Indonesia and Malaysia….all against Iran, all the while pushing support for undemocratic and minority governing Bahrain?

    Does that not seem peculiar?? Let alone against all that we are being told that the ‘Libyan operation’ is about.

    This seems a draft for a Robert Ludlun novel.


  8. @Sargeant ”Another fallacy is that Generals operate a “push button” war and are immune to the suffering of others. Wars are won in the trenches so the same Generals have to send soldiers into the field and some don’t get to return, the Generals (at least in the West) have to send letters to loved ones or explain why Joe is not coming back.”

    Sarge…really you CANNOT be serious?! Yuh mean the ‘stock letters’ filled in by secretaries and signed (if not by computer) en masse?

    Yeah…the ones that go ‘Dear Mrs.X I am sorry that your son Johhny was killed serving our great nation, he served well and died admirably, sincerely General D’.

    That should read ‘ Dear.Mrs X, your son Johhny was killed in action. I really did not know him, nor care, except that I do care my stock of 899 thousand soldiers is one less. I am heading off for golf now (after I check my stock price in XYZ Munitions ltd, that Daddy gave me whn I left the Academy…the stock is doing wonderfully thanks to this war by the way), as I need to maintain my contacts in case I run for congress one day. Anyway, take care and have a nice life now. PS – No wqe dont pay continuing benefits payments for families, so do not bother my office with that please. General Dickhead’.

    I really do not know why anybody lifts a gun for another, in any country. Basically ignorance and in some cases pure financial means, they have nothing else but to join the army, including US.


  9. Yeah ! not to mention . There blantant disregard for their people’s basic civil rights. A right to freedom and the pursuit of happiness. Some of us think that a government hand out is the endall and that citizens rights must be compromised .The end doesn’t justify the means.The Gaddaffi’s of this world must be stopped they tyrannical regime has wrecked havoc and fear in its people


  10. Which ME countries we can review as a case study where a monarchism/dictatorship was overthrown by the West and its socio-economic climate is flourishing today?


  11. We in the west have a different outlook on human rights, women’s rights than those of Middle Eastern Countries. We must remember that many people in those countries do not know how to handle and adapt to freedom that they never had. Many only know life under a dictator. Many are quite happy with that way of life and many cannot see life without a dictator. Their whole life and existence depended on dictators. Yes they may fight and die for freedom, that is freedom to change to another dictator. Therefore the West should not impose their brand of freedom to people who cannot grasp and understand it. Living under autocratic rule is a way of life for many in the Middle East.


  12. from the news, two months ago, Karzai the ‘elected’ President of Afghanistan, asked Nato politely to sod off……. from the news ”Afghan President Hamid Karzai urged international forces to stop NATO’s military action in Afghanistan.
    This statement he made during a meeting with relatives of children by mistakekilled in early Marchmilitary international force in the province Kunar.Hamid Karzai has repeatedly called forNATOavoid casualties among the civilian naseleniya.Ranee, March 10 reported that in southern Afghanistan, NATO soldiers by mistakewas killedgreat-uncle of President Haji Yar Mohammad Karzai. …

    Now, just today from cnn>>Kabul, Afghanistan (CNN) — An investigation was underway Sunday into allegations that a coalition airstrike in southern Afghanistan killed a dozen children and two women, Afghan and NATO officials said.

    The civilians were reportedly killed Saturday during an airstrike against insurgents who were attacking NATO-led International Security Assistance Force troops in the Nawzad district of the Helmand province, according to a spokesman for the provincial governor.

    The death toll, if confirmed, would make it the largest loss of civilian life this year as a result of an ISAF airstrike.

    ISAF confirmed there was an attack against its troops, though it did not know whether civilians were killed.

    “We do know about the allegations,” Navy Lt. Cmdr. Ronald Flesvig, an ISAF spokesman, told CNN.
    ——-

    Collateral damage for some of you folks.

    But, the other question is surely military action, when the elected President of a country has asked for a cease and desist, is illegal and callous?

    This is why the UN and the Hague are so important in international military scenarios.

    The general said ‘”We do know about the allegations”, sadly there are those who would probably ass ‘and we do not give a xhit’.

    Collateral damage my xss.


  13. @David

    Which ME countries we can review as a case study where a monarchism/dictatorship was overthrown by the West and its socio-economic climate is flourishing today
    ********************
    Actually it was the reverse the West helped to overthrow a democratically elected Gov’t in the ME and restore a fading monarchy.

    The US and the Brits were involved in the overthrow of Iranian nationalist President Mohammed Mossaddegh. Mossaddegh nationalized Iran’s oil (which had been owned by the Brits) and to say the Brits were displeased would be an understatement.

    The coup elevated the Shah’s powers gave rise to opposition by Khomeini et al and the rest is history. Perhaps they should have left well enough alone and who knows how history would have turned out. This is the danger of overthrowing democratically elected leaders because no one can predict the aftermath.


  14. @David,

    Good question which Sarge has answered correctly.

    But further and to include islandgals point and Sagre’s historical empirical evidence i.e. as to the social status quo of the ME, does organic growth ensure a more stable outcome than catalysed change?

    I would say yes. Hence, completely aside from the legalities, sensitivities and moralities of current ME actions, why I am loathe to support the changes in Libya at this time.

    I am not a candle holder for Gaddafi per se, but how can we be sure that we are not creating significant instability instead of watching the organic growth and social changes develop?

    After all, Gaddafi is say 70+, he wont be around much longer.

    Similarly, while I do not accept the Iranian leader’s unacceptable call to exterminate Israel, bear in mind that Iranian’s are generally more open and liberal than the authorities in that country.

    Forced changes can provide unwelcome side effects i.e. how many families now have a reality, in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan, that Nato bombs kill Arabs?

    Is this a reality that you want to foment?

    Remember the old saying that the pen is mightier than the sword.


  15. @BAFBFP
    Are you a Liar (LAWYER)? You sure know how to turn a sow’s ear into a silk purse! Great for you but NOT for the citizens of the countries which you champion.

    LKY had to be a lil harsh when he came to power in the 1960s as communists from China were already INFESTING the lil island. Furthermore, the Commies were fighting in Vietnam and had infiltrated as far west as northern Malaysia to which Sing is almost physically attached geographically, and is attached by 1 mile causeway. His strategy was brilliant, but then again , he took FIRST CLASS HONS at Cambridge in Law. Just as a strong man was needed then in Cuba, so was the same in Sing. It is the ensuing strategies that differ radically to the Cuban peoples disadvantage. LKY understood that humans DNA requires an incentive system (carrot) and stick (punishment for transgressors). Humans have not evolved that much in the last 10,000 yrs, and they certainly wont respond well when Doctors are paid virtually the same as bus drivers, and lazies/ drunks etc are fed eternally. This is even a major problem in Canada and Europe where socialism reigns supreme without accountability. Help peeps BUT they must respond positively and desire to improve or PAY THE PENALTY! LKY was the best leader of a developing country in the 20th Century, he took an overpopulated, overgrown fishing village(like Bim) and turned it into a modern metropolis that has a higher standard of living than the former coloniser! CUBA=very lil success! Castro should have gone down a similar path economically because he was no less dictatorial than LKY. Please be aware that Singaporeans were free to emigrate and none chose to leave by inner tube, my wife went to study in London and won the prize …ME!

    MG was involving himself in Africa for purposes of CONTROL. Arabs have historically tried to dominate/ enslave Africans, most recent evidence is the slaughter/ enslavement in Sudan in the last 20yrs or so. Now why did the UN not invade Sudan?????

    Sodamninsane ran a near bankrupt economy and killed his own peeps in the hundreds of thousands to say nothing about the Iranian War that cost over a million lives! Sode did not even properly develop his highly demanded OIL capacity, which could have been doubled if properly managed.
    TO BE CONTINUED gtg


  16. @ BAFBFP
    Sodamninsane had several show pieces in his cabinet and pray tell which personage would ever have proferred a dissenting view? Such personsages would have been taken directly from the Legislature to their immediate demise. True he did not allow the aberant to wallow in FEAR for long, his policy was SWIFT INJUSTICE.

    Having visited Cuba from its truely northern neighbour ,Canada, I have empirical info that life there is much tougher than Bim or Singapore. I already covered my total disdain for Embargoes.

    The occupation of Iraq et al is a requirement of the UN rules when any intervention takes place, surely you know that. Now during that occupation if terrorists move in, and Sunnis seek to AVOID RETRIBUTION for slaughtering Shia over the past 50+yrs of Bathist dictatorial rule then the Allies are obliged to stay and attempt to settle down the transition of power. The Shia want them to leave so they can deal with their oppressors, sumarily.

    Torture is a nasty factor that should be avoided where possible. However, torture can/ does work as in the case of Khalid Sheik Mohammed who “coughed up” no pun intended,(waterboarding) large quantities of useful info.

    Cuba cant feed its people. Why? The country has the land. Incentive! How come they are reforming to permit restaraunt ownership, agricultural production ownership etc?

    Psyche/ Black Opps are found in Russia and were born out of defensive necessity in the US. BTW Fidel always promotes the idea that the CIA tried to kill him on hundreds of occasions, please dont tell anyone you believe that? CIA is not that incompetant and with thousands of willing and trainable Spanish speaking Cubans, the CIA would not have failed that often.

    Whether OBL is worth a billion or $50MN is irrelevant. OBL had the $$$$ to live comfortably anywhere and chose to take up the fight against the Russians in Afghanistan and then to lead the fight for the needed reform of Arab countries by attacking his former benefactors the West. Why did he not focus on removing the Arab dictators? It was a ” grave’ mistake(no pun) to take on the West. That was a NO WIN situation from the start, although operating from Afghanistan did afford him the highest probability of bruising the West. Ganging up with the Taliban (Pakistanis fundamentalists mentally stuck in the 13th Century) was useful for numbers but the optics were horrible.

    What solid evidence could you possibly have that would lead you to the erroneous conclusion that the War on Terror is a sham? So you are basically saying that OBL/ Al Quaida are liars who claimed responsibly for terrorist exploits against many races, including Africans,eg Embassies in E.Africa, The Cole in yemen, WTC??, Bali, London, Madrid etc to name but a few. All of this is supposedly a FIENDISH Western Plot? Why bother with such time waisting? The West could have launched a viscous attack on the terrorists in 1998 after the E. African bombings, why wait? IMO, Clinton was negligent in NOT dealing with them then. Bill ordered 2 cruise misiles be fired into Afghanistan which killed a dog and crippled 2 goats. Monica mussee have been playing with his bent missile simultaneously????? I am eager to learn of your bountiful intell justifying your contention.

    @Crusoe
    The US obviously has compromised their position by NOT having clever Energy Policy so must play games with the Saudis. Bushs are fast friends with them, remember that even the Bin Laden family flew out of the US when everyone else were grounded. Hypocricy to be sure!

    China is a no win project! But the Us has been overly kind by opening up their markets in order to provide cheap goods to satiate the enormous consuming appetite of DUMB Spendthrift locals. BIG MISTAKE! If I were in control the US would have to 1 Float its currency 2 protect Western PATENTS 3 permit ownership of mines/ oil etc and generally agree to freer policies. China should NEVER been granted membership in th WTO club without a laundry list of actions.

    Iran is a theocracy run by Iamanutjob. They have spent billions against Isreal and have openly threatened to shove them in the Med! Iran will take the oil in Iraq and saudi if given the slightest opening. The Iranian theocracy is Shia and therefore HATE the Sunni/ Wahabists in Saudi. Wikileaks clearly exposed that the Saudis are so upset by the Iranians that they granted free passage and FUEL for the Isrealis attack on Iran, should they so desire.

    When it comes time to crush the Iranian theos it will NOT be accomplished with Western ground forces, as the terrain would cause serious western casualties ie million+. The nuke facilities will be bombed relentlessly and detailed plans to eliminate the Republican Guard will be key before unleashing the locals on what is left.

    Your creative effort on Gen Dickhead is to be commended and i do believe there are some people like that but many more that are brainwashed to perform like puppets with sincerity.


  17. @BAFBFP or OBL or Fidel

    You surely are aware of Waterford boys flacid attempts to belittle HC by calling us HS and themselves UNI. Impertinent wretches!

    I can assur you that my father’s taxes covered far more than my education at HC, more likely 10+ boys costs.


  18. @Moneybrain

    China is a no win project! But the Us has been overly kind by opening up their markets in order to provide cheap goods to satiate the enormous consuming appetite of DUMB Spendthrift locals. BIG MISTAKE! If I were in control the US would have to 1 Float its currency 2 protect Western PATENTS 3 permit ownership of mines/ oil etc and generally agree to freer policies. China should NEVER been granted membership in th WTO club without a laundry list of actions.

    Actually the US has been overly greedy which is driven by its capitalist system and need to expand markets and or drive down cost of production. It is why it has prostituted itself as far as China is concerned.


  19. @MoneyB,

    Good discussion and analysis above. That said, I suspect (all I can do…lol), that I now know your identity. Could be wrong though.

    No matter, I hold no brief and am glad that you have anough desire and interest to share thoughts and discuss. Welcome, for what it is worth.

    A couple of thoughts.

    Clinton did have OSB in his sights, but the word we got is that he stopped at the last minute, because a Saudi prince would have been exterminated too, THAT was the mistake.

    So, moreso than to blame him is to blame this Saudi & Pakistan pseudo-allegiance with the US.

    On the subject of China, as you say it was the US which caused China’s current status.

    Do you think this a redeemable situation, Obama’s push to repatriate the auto industry seems to have had certain fas effects and may be the start of a renewal, but how practical will this be for other industries i.e. technology etc?


  20. @David
    You perspective has some validity. Indeed, it will prove to be their undoing. I have been concerned( for 20yrs+) on the US’s behalf (and BIM’s as a result) that so easily embracing China and India ‘s rise bound to be a very serious strategic error if only because of the evidence presented by Japan in the 1970s where the Japs shreddded them in Electronics, autos etc based on the same type of strategies being used by China today. If you want to join the men’s club you cant cry when the 225 lb muscular fast bowler is marking out his runup. You gots to play by the rules or go home!

    I believe we agree that leaders must only care about the people under their charge and thus ensure they have jobs, food etc The govt in the US obviously is run by the rich who are greedy beyond belief. Politicians there are NOT statesmen but lackeys, who are in it for the power and $$$$$$. That is why I warned peeps that BO would disappoint alot of voters because he has limits set on what he can CHANGE and like JFK he will presumably face serious lead poisoning if he gets too far outa line. (mind you JFK may well have deserved removal because of his sexual weakness resulting in female East German agents visiting the WH for encounters) NOT a risk with BO cause Mich will” shorten him” or “Bobbit him” if he even thinks about it.


  21. G8 offers $20bn to aid Arab democracies May 27, 2011

    Tunisia and Egypt join summit in Deauville as world’s richest nations extend invitation of international loans to help fund nations’ efforts to move towards democracy

     

    Money can’t by me love…


  22. Money

    I normally go Ad hominem with those that I care little of, I have no problem with just leaving you alone


  23. @Crusoe
    Well as you know, the Pakistanis gladly except their US$3BN/ yr.
    No one could possibly trust them! The Taliban are from Pak and purposely invaded Afghanistan to control them and enlist them in their Fundamentalist doctrine. They openly alow madrassas to teach hate and the wiping out of ALL NON MUSLIMS of all races.

    OBL was located in a military town in the heart of the Pak not a couple miles from Afghanistan. Coincidence my hindquarters!

    There were 2 main probs with US auto Coys. Unions had out-negotiated Stempel in 1990 and were being paid total cost of $80/hr, not worth it with Japs receiving $55. Autoco managements were inept and along with pisspoor Govt direction failed to move the market to smaller vehicles. BTW the BO administration and the judiciary played fast and free with pension funds and other investors money when restructuring Chrysler. They ruled against Bondholders who should have legally had a significant piece of the NEWCO, But gave the Unions and Fiat big chunks. Dangerous precedent!

    I have my doubts about whether Chrysler should be saved or even deserved to be saved. 3 US Autocos makes no market sense. They should insist that if you want to sell cars in the US above a certain level of volume you must manufacture in the US. JOBS yes! That is my belief that jobs are Govts priority, always and everywhere, thats why I was upset that Bim lost 1000 jobs with Intel 1n 1980. Find the solution to keep those jobs.

    China and India will cripple the US if they dont change their (USs )approach. Trillions of US$ created by fiat in the last couple of years and what 8mn still officially unemployed, 5.5 mn not working but off the roles, 43 MN on food stamps! House prices still collapsing in many markets. Policy has to harden against Chindia! Neaarly 3BN people want our lifestyle To be continued


  24. When the people of the east migrate to the Wst. They have no problem with embracing their new found freedom and gleefully becomes citizens of those countries. With all the hatred beingthrown around at western Society the word democracy that once divide them from the west is whatgive those people lives a fair chance when compared to the tyrannical rulership under which they lived before


  25. @Crusoe
    The US/West can not permit China et al to have free access to our markets and not reciprocate on an even playing field. That would be like winning the toss and sending China into bat on a perfect batsman’s paradise wicket and after they have scored 750 for 2 we then take the hose and soak the pitch for 3hrs before going out to bat! China has been laughing at how stupid the US is, China’s only major concern is whether they will ever get back their money at close to full purchasing power.


  26. This debate is a lot of fun, so if you folks will indulge me I’ll post the clip I should have posted earlier, the one with Howard Cosell’s call “Down goes Frazier”


  27. @BAFBFP
    I must say that you are very good and forceful in making your points even if sometimes you maybe, well, a little misguided in your political stance or then again maybe you enjoy a lil fun by pushing convincingly hard left and radical.


  28. Christ Moneybrain

    Fault me for trying to play fair


  29. MoneyB you have not even touched the issue of Chinese cyber attacks to obtain economic, military or Gov’t data.. Recently the US defense contractor Lockheed Martin was the target of these attacks.

    Earlier this year in Canada, The Treasury Board and the Finance Dept had to go offline to try to thwart these attacks.

    I’m sure that we only hear when Western networks are breached but this game is played by both sides.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/cyber-attack-hits-ottawa-probe-focuses-on-ip-addresses-from-china/article1910769/


  30. BAFBFP

    I think that some kind of line was crossed with that comment, David I don’t usually support censorship of any stripe but I think that comment should be stricken from the record.


  31. @Sarge
    WW3 or as some would argue WW4 has already started in CYBERSPACE. Problem is that the Indians and Chinese are very brilliant in that realm and few of us Bajans likely to benefit.
    Except those of us that own stocks that sell natural resources/ commodities to them or hi tech solutions to the Us/ West.


  32. BU had hoped BAFBFP would have proffered an apology to ac by now. BU removed the comment.


  33. @David: “BU had hoped BAFBFP would have proffered an apology to ac by now. BU removed the comment.

    Perhaps BAFBFP (and ac) is smarter than you think he (and they) is (are)….


  34. @Sarge,

    ‘Down goes Frazier…down…etc’, the commentator really got into it…

    Seeing Frazier, himself a superlative boxer, being pummelled by Foreman, is jaw-dropping. Note that anyone other than Smoking Joe or Ali would probably have been out cold with the first drop.

    Those three were a class above anyone in the last thirty years, any one of them would have mauled anyone including Buster Douglas, Tyson or Holyfield in the last twenty years.

    Frazier was a legendary boxer in his won right, but he came up against the two most amazing guys in boxing, Ali and Foreman.

    Suffice it to say, at least the three are known for the greatest era in bocing.

    One other point, is that while Foreman may be known for being massive and powerful, if you watch him you will see that he was actually an excellent technical boxer, not just powerful.

    I would suggest that Ken Norton was a fourth to these guys, not that he was not good, but they were amazing.


  35. David | May 30, 2011 at 5:29 PM |

    “BU had hoped BAFBFP would have proffered an apology to ac by now. BU removed the comment.”

    Now what comment are your talking about? How could I possibly have insulted ac?


  36. Moneybrain and Sarge and the Rest

    With reasonable people one can reason. Judging from your thoughts and approach above, there really has been no communication between you and me. I refuse to believe that you are the shining examples of what Crumpton Street and Waterford High Schools could produce … Nah, not wunna


  37. @Crusoe
    Yes I distinctly remember arguing with our HC bros the day of the Frazier vs Foreman Fight in JA and making it clear Foreman was a BEAST that would win, HIT TOO HARD!


  38. @BAFBFP
    You too used to convincing people that dont have independent thoughts and that you overwhelm with your very confident style. Probably would make a star politician!

    I still cant appreciate how you can seriously believe that your list of favourite dictators should even be discussed in the same year with LKY of Singapore.


  39. @Crusoe

    I don’t follow boxing today but when I did it was always the heavyweights. For people in the generation prior to mine their favourite was Joe Louis but my favourite was Cassius Marcellus Clay who became Muhammad Ali.

    For me Ali was the best bar none, I started following him from the time he fought Sonny Liston who was then the most feared heavy weight boxer. Ali put the “sweet” in the “sweet science” as the sport is sometimes called.

    The call “Down goes Frazier” was made by Howard Cosell then one of the most famous sports announcers in the USA, and it is well known among boxing aficionados. The phrase has its own google entry.

    If you really want to watch an excellent boxing documentary I would recommend “When we were Kings” , it won an Academy Award for best documentary in 1996. It covered the events leading up to the fight and the fight between Ali and Foreman in Kinshasa, Zaire in 1974.

    The fight is known as “The Rumble in the Jungle”


  40. @David
    I did not read the comments posted by Baf. However if the comments were derogatory or insensitve. I do respect your response in removing. Critical thinking is an important principle before one exercisesthe right to “free Speech”if not the end result can be damaging to parties involved.


  41. @Sargeant
    Ali was indeed great, although I would like to have seen him at his peak versus Foreman without the gamesmanship ie loose ropes.

    Today boxing has lost prominance to MMA…Mixed Martial Arts.
    I have always been an ardent fan but have lost track over the last few years.


  42. @Sarge, Moneybrain and Crusoe

    How can you guys claim to be boxing aficionados and be so intoxicated/blinded by the heavys – Ali, Forman,Frazier and Norton?

    What about the class down also dominated by Sugar Ray, Hagler, Duran?


  43. i also heard that Sonny Liston delivered a nasty punch are their any videos on his heydays.


  44. Moneybrain

    To be honest, Nothing about you sounds that indepenent to me, and you know something, I have worked in the Philippines and Malaysia, which means of course that I spent weekends in Singapore. Your knack is one of pointing out deficiencies in others that are actually more prevalent in yourself.

    ac

    If I truly had critical thinkers to deal with, there would be no problem


  45. @Sarge / Moneybrain/David,

    Sarge thanks for the tip, will check for the documentary. David, agreed that was a ‘group’ of greats too, but I really could not put that threesome, no matter their superb quality, against Alai, Foreman and Frazier, though some claim that Sugar Ray Leonard was the best pound for pound, while obviously Duran and Hagler were brute forces.

    @All,

    Back on track, from NBC, this is Karzai in the news today ”Karzai said he would no longer allow NATO airstrikes on houses because they have caused too many civilian casualties.

    “If they don’t stop airstrikes on Afghan homes, their presence in Afghanistan will be considered as an occupying force and against the will of the Afghan people,” Karzai told a news conference in Kabul Tuesday. “From this moment, airstrikes on the houses of people are not allowed.”………..
    reporting continued ….”The strikes were ordered after a patrol had come under fire. Graphic television footage after the strikes showed grieving relatives holding the bodies of several children, including babies.

    The commander of the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) later apologized for the deaths, saying the strikes on the compound had been ordered because insurgents were using them as a base. ”

    —–

    There are multiple problems reflected in this news report. Firstly, it obviously reinforces the anger growing against civilian deaths and thus the Nato forces.

    Secondly, the commander’s ‘apology’ and ‘explanation/ excuse’ are unsatisfactory. That the strikes were ordered, in spite of possibility pprobability of civilians also being at the properties and thus possible or probable civilian deaths indicates callouness, indeed the excuse itself is callous, indicating that they made the decision, in spite of possible to use their term ‘collateral damage’.

    Dead children and I even have trouble writing this next ‘dead babies’, can not ever be ‘collateral damage’.

    Sick and twisted.

    That these areas were bombed per se and the ‘reason’, reflects a third problem in that the Nato forces are, rightfully afraid to use ground forces, because they expect their own casualties to mount if they do, hence in trying the limit their own badybags going home, they have chosen civilian casualties instead.

    The fourth problem partially dervived from the third but in of itself different philosophically, is that this war is unwinnable.

    Contrary to the media glorificaiton of bombings in the Iraq war, it is not possible to ‘win hearts and minds’ by bombing the bejeezus out of a nation, nor is it possible to win hearts and minds by war in of itself.

    War or invasion, whatever you want to call it, is a matter of conquest and forced change, anyone who tells you otherwise is talking nonsense and being deliberately misleading.

    Thus, from a goal perspective, I assert that this will be unwinnable, because the goal of removing the Taliban and extremists will not be achieved, without significant further time and effort, which is already proving troublesome.

    The removal of Bin Laden was the most effective method to be applied, albeit Pakistan’s vexation and charge that it must not happen again, not sure why they would say that, unless the know that Zawahiri is also on their soil.

    Tactical and surgical removal of such ‘targets’, also removal of any training camps as they sprout, together with media used for education and social changes, is probably the best way forward.

    Hence, why media such as Voice of America, BBC, and internet educaiton, are so important in opening the minds around the world and educating as to lifestyle alternatives.

    You may call it propaganda, but as we see from American television the reality is that, media can have profound effects on a nations thought process, even capturing the nation in some instances.

    Hence, from a tactical viewpoint, one should put resources into broadcast media across those areas, with translations etc.

    Without that, any military works will not be effectual in the long run.


  46. These thugs are invading sovereign territories under the guise of protecting civilians from dictators. In the process they cause more human death and suffering than any of the dictators could be held responsible for. My problem is that the critical independent thinkers ’bout hey see this as justifiable.

    I wish that these NATO people would miss and “surgically strike” Crumpton Street High and Waterford High pun a Sunday (when nobody dey) and we gun see how fast opinions gun change ’bout hey …!


  47. Crusoe,

    A NATO bomb kills my child and NATO controlled television and internet will help to make me feel better … Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you people ..?


  48. @baf
    O.k retard


  49. @ David

    Would you please delete the comment above that was made by ac. It is unwarranted and very insulting; some kind of line was crossed!!! 🙂

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