Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
@DDictionary
You on one track all the time. Are you saying that hammers should be outlawed because somebody smashed another’s head with one?
We employ magic in our lives everyday. The businessman who seeks a deal that would take his business forward goes after sometimes what seems to be the impossible to become sustainable.
COW Williams is now moving the earth to please because he pursued his dream and found ways to get there.
You people are masters of stigmatisation. A simple word like magic, you have taken it and demonised it. I wonder why? I suppose that is to further discredit Egypt… and you say that you are not trying to discredit anybody. Look what you say about magic and read what I posted about it.
When you sit down to pray or ask your god for something, without your even understanding what you are doing, you are trying magic. You believe that your god will deliver but nobody else can have such pleasure. You joking. All you doing is misleading people with your discriminatory practices.
You christians are who put that spin on the word magic. I tell you, when it comes to christianity, there is no spiritual food.
@Dictionary
Please take a look at the real definition of magic as set out in my post:
“The word โmagicโ is used to translate the Egyptian term heka, which meant โthe ability to make things happen by indirect meansโ.”
We do this everyday. The hypocrisy is overbearing. You take the word and apply your demonism to it. So people should not wish for anything unless they believe in your god? Joke!
ROK, Has done us a great favour by taking the time to literally EXPOSE all of the utter MAZE and Labyrinth, knot, mesh, morass, and tangled web, of ancient Egyptian religious *IDOLATRY* the worship of all the various FALSE gods, and the magical rituals, etc, etc, associated with this most ancient of DEMONIC deceptions.
SPIRITISM- THE CULT OF ANTIQUITY.
As the late Dr. Walter Martin asserted in his masterpiece, “The Kingdom Of The Cults”
“By far the oldest form of religious cult extant today, and certainly one of the DEADLIEST where the certainty of divine judgment IS concerned, is that of Spiritism, often referred to as “Spiritualism.” However, in speaking of this cult, it is sometimes necessary to use the term in order to communicate in the vernacular of our day.” (p. 227). emphasis added.
Martin then goes on to correctly state:
“The greatest of all source books on the subject of Spiritism is, of course the Bible, which gives a historical outline of Spiritism in a most concise and dependable form.”
“Begining graphically in Exodus, Scripture reveals that the ANCIENT Egyptians WERE practitioners of cultism of MAGIC, SORCERY and NECROMANCY, which were utilized by the priests of the demon *gods* of Egypt to duplicate the miracles of Moses when he appeared before Pharaoh with the divine command (Exodus 7:11; 22; 8:18).”
“The attitude of God toward those who practice the FORBIDDEN sin, is also clearly outlined in Scripture. The Lord ordered the death penalty for ALL *sorcerers* as recorded in Exodus 22: 18; Leviticus 20: 27, to cite two specific instances. The Old Testament also named as those cursed by God, persons consorting with ‘familiar spirits’ and ‘wizards’ (Leviticus 19:31 and 20:6), in our language demons and mediums.” (Ibid., p. 229)
These abominable practices, were the very CORE of ancient Egyptian Spiritism, rank paganistic Idolatry, as so well outlined in Rok’s posts, thank you Rok, for so carefully exposing in such detail this most ancient of demonic deceptions!
In company with these violators of divine command, Daniel the prophet often speaks of the *magicians*, *sorcerers*, *soothsayers* and *astrologers* (Daniel 1:20; 2:2; 4:7 and 5:7), who specialized along with the Chaldeans, in the art of interpreting dreams and visions. The prophet Isaiah also speaks of ANCIENT SPIRITISTS as casting sorceries upon Israel (Isa. 8:19; 19:3; 47: 9), and King Saul, before his apostasy, under God’s command drove such practitioners from Israel (I Samuel 28: 3, 9) as did the righteous King Josiah after him (2 Kings 23: 24, 25).
The scriptures likewise bear record that Manassah’s downfall came about as the result of his delving into SPIRITISM (2 Kings 21: 6; 2 Chronicles 33: 6) and his ensuing practice of IDOLATRY in defiance of the command of Almighty God. The Bible presents a DEVASTATING resume of man’s forbidden desire to uncover the hidden spiritual mysteries of the universe, even if *witchcraft*, *divination*, or enchantments, ALL of which were very much the practice of the EGYPTIANS, in their Idolatrous beliefs, must be employed to further their UNHOLY quest. Egyptians, Babylonians, Chaldeans and the Canaanites, the Scriptures tell us, ALL practiced SPIRITISM, which practice, in one form or another, continued through the ages. That IS why, Almighty God’s JUDGMENT came upon each any everyone of these ancients peoples, and they ALL came to utter runination, one by one. Idolatry IS an ABOMINBATION before Almight God.
How any one, with a modicum of intelligence, reading the historic outline of ancient Egypt, as given by Rok, which is accurate; and then reading the Old Testament, with Almighty God’s strictest prohibitions, AGAINST such wanton abominations of Idolatry, as practiced in Egypt et al socities, could conclude, as Rok has so stupidly opined, that the Bible was copied from Egyptian religion, WHEN, the two are compared, THERE IS nothing BUT the complete OPPOSITE of beliefs, doctrine, practice, etc, etc.
EGYPT: Rank, Gross, Crass, Paganistic Idolatry, a literal multiplicity of *demonic* FALSE deities.
JUDAISM: From the very beginning, absolute Monotheism, FORBIDDEN to practice such brazen, Godless Idolatry.
Truth, will ALWAYS be vindicated and validated, by FACTS and EVIDENCE!
Dictionary
I was NOT attempting to score any points rhetorical or otherwise. I asked for clarification, you took offense. Your loquaciousness only contributes to the abstruseness of your posts and just makes you a bore. Even Zoe in a post praising you on Jan 04 at 10:26 p.m had this to say about your writing, –
“…. it is difficult to follow what obviously comes so easy for him, as his linguistic style, naturally, would overwhelm most of us, even other bright men, have problems following him, let alone us lessor mortals!”
“It will not be easy reading, it is deeply intellectual, …”‘
and to his shame he admits to most uncivil conduct when he (Zoe) states that
“I personally have dozens of pdf files he sent me over the last few years; most of which I have not being able to start reading;”
I can only commend Mathew 7:5 to you as you seek redress from others.
@Zoe
“The greatest of all source books on the subject of Spiritism is, of course the Bible, which gives a historical outline of Spiritism in a most concise and dependable form.”
On the contrary Zoe, christians are spiritually dead. They are very superstitious and afraid of everything from Ghost to magic. Notwithstanding that they call their god the “holy ghost”.
All the colourful and demonic adjectives you using is a testament to your fear of very simple things because you have not taken the time to understand them.
Now John asked me a question to the effect that, “Is there nothing at all good about the bible?” I ask you a similar question, was there nothing good about Egypt?
All you know how to do is put down. You are so blind that once it does not fit into your god, you put it down. Very typical of chgristian scoffers and mockers; yes, the very thing you accuse people of, you are guilty of in the first degree. Nothing about Egypt is good, but yet you got all of Egypt in your bible and living by it.
The sciences, the medicine, mathematics, construction and architecture, all of what we use today was born in Egypt and handed down by even more Ancient ancestors and you mocking it. You have little respect for anybody not talking your language and that makes you a most inhumane person.
It is this kind of fundamentalist thinking that has so many problems in this world today. Like my father used to say, you behave like when you see a cockroach, all panic goes up and all you hear is, “Kill he, kill he, kill he”.
@Zoe
“These abominable practices, were the very CORE of ancient Egyptian Spiritism, rank paganistic Idolatry…”
Look what you saying about a nation that survived for well over 3000 years. This western civilisation is far less than that (about half or less) and is on the brink of disaster.
It seems to me that Egypt was most certainly doing something right. 170 pharaohs. Not a single civilisation today can boast that.
MAGIC:
When we speak of magic, we are dealing with a term having a variety of meanings. People use the expression, “It’s magic!” when they see something incredible.
One of the popular uses of the word magic is in the field of show business. Magic shows entertain us when the so-called magician saws someone in half or pulls a rabit out of his hat. This type of magic is mostly the art of illusion.
However, the *magic* we are concerned with, is not the above. The magic used by the ancient Egyptians et al, and right up until today, by those deeply involved in the *OCCULT* is an entirely different matter altogether. This magic IS a secretive occult art, dealing with the hidden forces of Satan’s spirit world of deception.
This kind of occult magic, IS an attempt to gain control over nature by supernatural means. It consist of *spells* *charms* and other devious demonic techniques, intended to give man what he CANNOT achieve with his normal powers.
Magic, used mainly by witches, is described by Truzzi:
“For some witchcraft practitioners, especially the more orthodox or traditional ones, MAGIC is viewed as a supernatural phenomenon. The character of MAGIC IS such that it INVOLVES special spiritual agencies (e.g., elementals, DEMONS, etc.) which are OUTSIDE the natural physical order available for study by empirical science. Thus, for some witches, magical laws are not natural laws, and they can even contradict natural laws.” (Marcello Truzzi, “Toward a Sociology of the Occult: Notes on Modern Witchcraft” in Religious Movements in Comtemporary America, p. 635).
WHITE MAGIC:
White magic is said to be the use of magical powers and abilities in an unselfish manner for the benefit of others.
The fact of the matter, IS, this IS just another TRICK of Satan to deceive people into believing, that, because it is supposed to be ‘unselfish’ and for the supposed good of another person, it is not evil or bad. When, Satan IS still the deceiver in so-called white magic.
BLACK MAGIC:
The opposite of white magic is familiar black magic, which can be defined as the USE of magical powers to cause HARM to others.
Of course there are the other kinds of Magic, i.e., Sympathetic Magic, Liturgy ofMagic, and Lycanthropy, which is a form of magic which believes human beings under certain conditions can change into animals; and this HAS in fact been done by extremely deep practicioners of OCCULTISM, ALL of which come from the father of ALL deception, SATAN himself. (Handbbok of Today’s Religion, p. 203, 204) emphasis added.
Right here in B’dos, are any number of people, from all walks of life, Politicians, white, black, and otherwise, rich and poor, that delve INTO this BORBIDDEN demonic practice, which invariably BRINGS very negative consequences on their very lives and family. As Almighty God FORBIDS such demonic practices.
Egytpian religious practices, were very much involved IN this kind of devilish activity.
God’s Wings
After a forest fire in Yellowstone National Park, forest rangers began their trek up a mountain to assess the inferno’s damage. One ranger found a bird literally petrified in ashes, perched statuesquely on the ground at the base of a tree. Somewhat sickened by the eerie sight, he knocked over the bird with a stick. When he gently struck it, three tiny chicks scurried from under their dead mother’s wings. The loving mother, keenly aware of impending disaster, had carried her offspring to the base of the tree and had gathered them under her wings, instinctively knowing that the toxic smoke would rise. She could have flown to safety but had refused to abandon her babies. Then the blaze had arrived and the heat had scorched her small body, the mother had remained steadfast…because she had been willing to die, so those under the cover of her wings would live.
‘He will cover you with His feathers, And under His wings you will find refuge.’
(Psalm 91:4)
Being loved this much should make a difference in your life. Remember the One who loves you, and then be different because of it.
@Zoe
All the dog and crab dancing you doing does not take away from the original translation of the Egyptian term heka, which meant โthe ability to make things happen by indirect meansโ.
I never spoke about black or white magic which is another racist view of magic. What is it that your illuminati doing? Skull & Bones? My Lord. I don’t hear you complaining about them, but you dance to every tune they call.
@GP
“The loving mother, keenly aware of impending disaster, had carried her offspring to the base of the tree and had gathered them under her wings, instinctively knowing that the toxic smoke would rise.”
These nice sounding internet circulating stories have no truth in them whatsoever, yet you here quoting them as a fact.
You telling me that the bird know something about what is toxic? If you know anything about animals in the wild, that story is totally out of character. You telling me that a bird will sit unmoved and enuring the pain of firey heat until it dies?
Well! Well! Well! Will never happen.
@Rok, “It seems to me that Egypt was most certainly doing something right. 170 Pharaohs. Not a single civilization today can boast that.”
Almighty God’s wheels of Divine Justice and Righteousness, TURN SLOWLY…but SURELY….but they DO!
All of those great civilizations ARE in RUNINATION, look at Babylon and the Roman Empires. Duration and length of existence are NO validity that they were right, or Godly civilizations.
And, today, the great America, IS on the way out! As all the other so-called powerful nations of today’s world, will TOO! Why?
Because, Almighty God IS NO respector of PERSONS, colour HAS nothing to do with HIS Absolute Justice and Righteousness.
Idolatry today, might not be as it was in ancient Egypt et al, Images, etc, etc, twenty first century Idolatry, IS, secular materialism, Humanism, Atheism, Evolutionary naturalism, cultural and moral relativism, etc, etc, all playing their part in the UNTIMATE demise and sure judgment of Almighty God, on mankind GONE terribly astray FROM his Creator!
@Zoe
“All of those great civilizations ARE in RUNINATION, look at Babylon and the Roman Empires.”
I really can’t believe that you can’t see your own folly. All of these great men like Einstien, etc. can’t be such great men. They dead and Zoe is alive. Surely he must be greater than them because he ain’t dead yet.
@Rok, “…the Egyptian term ‘heka’ which meant ‘the ability to make things happen by indirect means.”
Exactly, ‘…by indirect means’ the DEMON gods, behind all of this activity, ‘….by indirect means’ the complete OPPOSITE to what the Hebrews and Christians are FORBIDDEN to consult.
Man, these DEMONS got you PROPER…PROPER..PROPER…all over your mind, soul, body…what a mess of UTTER DECEPTION…you ARE IN!!!
It really IS so sad what you have CHOSEN and ALLOWED to happen to you!
@Zoe
Tired with you and this demon foolishness. You would burn a fella at the stake without thinking.
Funerary practices
Main article: Ancient Egyptian burial customs
Because it was considered necessary for the survival of the soul, preservation of the body was a central part of Egyptian funerary practices. Originally people were buried in graves in the desert, where the arid conditions mummified the body naturally. In the Early Dynastic Period, however, the Egyptians began using tombs for greater protection, and the body was insulated from the desiccating effect of the sand and was subject to natural decay. Thus, the practice of embalming developed. The process was not fully developed until the New Kingdom, but from then on the embalmers removed the internal organs, dried the corpse in natron crystals, and wrapped it in linen to be placed in its coffin. The quality of the process varied according to cost, however, and those who could not afford it were still buried in desert graves.
Once the mummification process was complete, the mummy was carried from the deceased person’s house to the tomb in a funeral procession that included his or her friends and relatives, along with a variety of priests. At the tomb entrance, a number of rituals were performed, including the Opening of the Mouth ceremony, in which a priest touched the mummy with various ceremonial tools to restore the dead person’s senses and give him or her the ability to receive offerings. Then the mummy was buried and the tomb sealed. Afterward, relatives or hired priests gave food offerings to the deceased in a nearby mortuary chapel at regular intervals. However, over time families inevitably neglected offerings to long-dead relatives, and most mortuary cults only lasted one or two generations.
The first Egyptian tombs were mastabas, rectangular brick structures where kings and nobles were entombed. Each of them contained a subterranean burial chamber and a separate, aboveground chapel for mortuary rituals. In the Old Kingdom the mastaba developed into the pyramid, which symbolized the primeval mound of Egyptian myth. Pyramids were reserved for royalty, and were accompanied by large mortuary temples sitting at their base. Middle Kingdom pharaohs continued to build pyramids, although far smaller than those of the Old Kingdom, but the popularity of mastabas waned. Increasingly, commoners with sufficient means were buried in rock-cut tombs with separate mortuary chapels nearby, an approach which was less vulnerable to tomb robbery. By the beginning of the New Kingdom even the pharaohs were buried in such tombs, and they continued to be used until the decline of the religion itself.
Tombs could contain a great variety of other items, including statues of the deceased to serve as substitutes for the body in case it was damaged and Canopic jars containing the organs removed during the mummification process. Because it was believed that the deceased would have to do work in the afterlife, just as in life, burials often included small models of humans to do work in place of the deceased. The use of these model workers replaced the practice, used by the earliest pharaohs, of burying human servants along with the king. The tombs of wealthier individuals could also contain furniture, clothing, and other everyday objects intended for use in the afterlife, along with amulets and other items intended to provide magical protection against the hazards of the spirit world. Further protection was provided by funerary texts inscribed on the tomb walls, the burial shroud, the coffin, or on separate rolls of papyrus. The tomb walls also bore artwork, including images of the deceased eating food which were believed to allow him or her to magically receive sustenance even after the mortuary offerings had ceased.
Because they believed that the gods could manifest themselves in animal form, the Egyptians mummified and interred animals as well as humans. Originally this only applied to specific sacred animals, such as the Apis bull worshipped as a manifestation of Ptah. Beginning in the Twenty-sixth dynasty, however, the Egyptians began mummifying a wide variety of animals in honor of the gods whom they represented. Worshippers paid the priests of a particular deity to acquire and mummify an animal which represented that deity, and the mummy was placed in a cemetery near the god’s cult center as an offering. Some such crypts contain millions of animal mummies.
Predynastic and Early Dynastic periods
The beginnings of Egyptian religion extend into prehistory, and information about religious activity in these early times comes solely from archaeological evidence, which is difficult to interpret and subject to differing opinions. Careful burials during the Predynastic period imply that the people of this time believed in some form of an afterlife. At the same time, animals were ritually buried, a practice which may reflect the development of zoomorphic deities like those found in the later religion. While these early Egyptians also produced anthropomorphic figures which may represent gods in human form, the evidence is unclear, and this type of deity may have emerged more slowly than those in animal shape. Each region of Egypt originally had its own patron deity, but it is likely that as these small communities conquered or absorbed each other, the god of the defeated area was either incorporated into the other god’s mythology or entirely subsumed by it. This resulted in a complex pantheon in which some deities remained only locally important while others developed more universal significance.
The Early Dynastic period began with the unification of Egypt around 3000 BC. This event transformed Egyptian religion, as some deities rose to national importance and the cult of the divine pharaoh became the central focus of religious activity. The early kings were interred in elaborate mastaba tombs with expensive grave goods and, in the case of First Dynasty rulers, humans sacrificed to attend the king in the afterlife. These burials demonstrate the importance of the royal funerary cult even at the beginning of Egyptian history. High officials were buried in less-elaborate tombs of a similar type.
why can’t rome set jah children free
babylon let it be what it must be
so rome set jah children free now
don’t you remember down in egypt
don’t tell me you want it to be the same trip
Rocking Universally (*)
(*)=Willie Williams/Noel Ellis/Jackie Mitoo
Egyptian Religion.
Every single detail of ritual described in the ancient Egyptian pagan religious beliefs, as posted by Rok, ARE deeply rooted from the mysterious spirit world of SATAN.
SATAN:
Kurt Koch, in his book, The Devil’s Alphabet, writes:
“The devil IS a many-sided and versatile demagogue. To the psychologist he says, ‘I’ll give you new knowledge and understanding.” To the OCCULTIST he will say, ‘I’ will give the keys to the last secrets of creation.’ He confronts religionist and the moralist with a MASK of integrity and promises them the very help of heaven. And finally to the rationalist and the liberalist, he says, “I am NOT THERE. I DO NOT even exist.”
“The devil IS a skillful strategist. He IS the MASTER of every tactic of the battlefield. He befrogs the front. He hides behind a camouflage of EMPTY religious talk. He operates through the use of the latest SCIENTIFIC method. He successfully fires and launches his arguments on the social and human plan. And his SOLE AIM is to DECEIVE, to ENTICE, and to ENSNARE his victims (Kurt Koch, The Devil’s Alphabet, p. 7) emphasis added.
The above general description, by Koch, of how Satan operates, is readily seen in its various forms, right here on BU, over the various threads that GP, Dictionary and me, have contended with, as Satan uses the minds of the intellectual, not so intellectual, the religious minded person, and, of course, the downright ignorant.
Outside of being IN Christ Jesus, led and guided by His Anointing, Satan will GET you one way or the other; as he has no end of deception, to ensnare you with, IF you do NOT have the objective criteria, for *discerning* his masterful LIES and UTTER deception.
One of Satan’s plans IS to convince the world that he DOES NOT exist. Denis deRougemont makes the following insightful observation:
“Satan dissenbles himself behind his own image. He chooses to don a grotesque appearance which has the sure effect of making him inoffensive in the eyes of educated people. For if the devil is simply the red demon armed with a large trident, or the faun with goatee and the long tail of popular legend, who would still go to the trouble of believing in him, or even of declaring that he does not believe in him?…What appears to be incredible is not the devil, not the angels, BUT rather the candor and the credulity of the skeptics, and the unpardonable sophism of which they show themselves to be the victims: ‘The devil is a gent with red horns and a long tail: therefore I don’t believe in the devil.” And so, the devil has them precisely where he wants them.” (The devil’s Share, pp. 19-21, cited by D.G. Kehl in Demon Possession, ed., John Warwick Montgomery, p. 112) emphasis added.
What Should Be Our Attitude Toward Satan?
The Scriptures exhort us to take the proper attitude toward Satan in order to deal effectively with his onslaughts. It is absolutely necessary to observe the following biblical injunctions:
[1] Be aware That He Exist. The scriptures teach that Satan exists, but that he attempts to HIDE that fact from the world. “And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself AS an angel of light. Therefore it IS not surprising if his *servants* ALSO disguise themselves as servants of righteousness: whose END shall be according to their deeds” (2 Corinthians 11: 14, 15, NASB). We have already indicated that one of Satan’s schemes IS to have people believe that he IS (just) a symbolic figure of evil. He would love people to see him as an ‘angel of light’ or even as a funny little man with a red suit and pitchfork rather THAN as the DANGEROUS, EVIL, but ultimately doomed adversary of the Lord God and all mankind.
[2] Be Aware of His Motives. From the time of his rebellion until his ultimate destruction, Satan has wanted to be like the Most High. He wants adoration. He wants allegiance. He wants the service of people who rightly should be serving God. He wants people to believe that it is he who is good and it is God whom is bad. However, the worship he desires IS not informed worship of a god one knows, and has seriously considered.
His deception has people worshipping and serving him without even being aware of what they are doing. (Handbook of Today’s Religions, pp. 225, 232) emphasis added.
One could not possibly want a MORE VIVID example of this, than in the UTTER maze of CONFUSION, gods going and coming, gods fighting, the labryinth of RITUALISTIC nonsense all outlined by ROK, could any sane person really believe any of this spiritual crap, to have come from any one other than the very *father* of ALL lies, SATAN?
I am trying to get back a copy of an amazing document given me a few years ago, explicitely dealing with in detail, by an African man, I can’t remember which African nation he was from; giving his account of his *initiation* INTO his tribal religious ancestors from a very young age; and what he LITERALLY experienced for decades thereafter, as he performed amazing supernatural feats in the REALM of the spirit, believing ALL of this to have being FROM GOD!
At NO time, he said, was he AWARE in any way that he WAS working for Satan, and his astral metaphysical kingdom; in fact he WAS told by his so-called spirit guides, that the Christians were in fact of the devil!
UNTIL, one day, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, confronted him, personally, face to face; he said, he had NEVER witnessed in all of his astral projections to many planets, ANY THING like this, the absolute brilliant GLORY and MAJESTY that came from JESUS CHRIST, he said, could NOT be put into words.
He was instantly converted to the LORDSHIP of Christ, and the book deals extensively with the amazing DECEPTION of Satan, who he said, he met on a number of occasions, BUT, never once did SATAN ever reveal himself as SATAN.
Today, that man, IS a living testimony to (1) the reality of Satan’s kingdom, and the UTTER deception that reigns forth from it, to carry multitudes into Hell, and (2) the Eternal amazing reality of the TRUTH, gloriously manifested in the Person of The Lord Jesus Christ, whom he now serves, in freedom, peace, and TRUE spiritual enlightenment.
There are a number of other testimonies from others WHO served Satan in various way, Witchcraft, or direct Satanism, or various other deceptions in many different religious organizattions, and ALL of them, give a strickingly similar account to Satan’s deceptions, AND what happened WHEN they encountered the LIVING Lord of Lords, and King of Kings, JESUS CHRIST.
There are also a number of living people, who NEVER met each other, who HAD outer-body experiences in BOTH *HELL* and *HEAVEN* all well documented, both ETERNAL states ARE REAL!
But, Satan DOES NOT want anyone to believe that HELL is real, NO, he wants you to call that a figment of ones imagination, as Rok does.
The TORMENT, stench, DARKNESS, and screams of anguish that those who were given an outer-body revelation by the Lord, in Hell, say, NO WORDS can describe what it IS really like.
Conversely, they also were given a revelation of Heaven, again, they ALL say, NO words can adequately describe to ABSOLUTE Peace, Joy, Beauty, Majesty of Heaven, as IT IS beyond ANY thing beautiful on earth.
But, the Scoffers, will again find a way to Scoff and deny the REALITY of these revelations.
The choice is ours, to carefully investigate the FACTS and the evidence, as its ALL there. But, remember, our Arch-Enemy, Satan, DOES NOT want you to KNOW the TRUTH!
Egypt: Old and Middle Kingdoms
During the Old Kingdom the priesthoods of the major deities tried to organize the confusing national pantheon into groups, each with their own mythology and cult center. It was in this period that family triads of deities emerged, and the theologies of Heliopolis, Hermopolis, and possibly Memphis were developed. Meanwhile, pyramids replaced mastabas as the tombs of pharaohs, although important non-royals continued to use mastabas. Pyramids were accompanied by large mortuary temple complexes, which were extremely important in the development of Egyptian temple design.
In the Old Kingdom, the city of Heliopolis became the nation’s most important religious site, and its patron god Ra was increasingly influential. The Fourth Dynasty change from step pyramids to true pyramids, for instance, may have been influenced by the symbolic association of the true pyramid shape with the rays of the sun. By the Fifth Dynasty Ra was effectively the nation’s state god, with and had developed the close links with kingship and the afterlife that he retained for the rest of Egyptian history. Around the same time, Osiris became an important afterlife deity.
At the end of the Fifth Dynasty, kings began inscribing the Pyramid Texts inside their tombs. The texts contain not only the solar and Osirian concepts of the afterlife that were current at the time, but also older traditions, some dating back to Predynastic times. They are thus an extremely important source for understanding Egyptian theology during and before the Old Kingdom.
In the 22nd century BC, the Old Kingdom collapsed into the disorder of the First Intermediate Period, with important consequences for Egyptian religion. Old Kingdom officials had already begun to adopt the funerary rites originally reserved for royalty, but now, less rigid barriers between social classes meant that these practices and the accompanying beliefs gradually extended to all Egyptians, a process called the “democratization of the afterlife”. The Osirian view of the afterlife had the greatest appeal to commoners, and thus Osiris became one of the most important gods. The new pharaohs originated from Thebes, and they promoted their patron god Monthu to national importance, but during the Middle Kingdom he was eclipsed by the rising popularity of Amun.
@Zoe
See how you put it up? Egypt = Satan. How naive can a person get. You proving to me more and more with this going overboard that you think Egypt is a threat to your religion. No respect whatsoever.
Why don’t you listen to your master? Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.
Anonymous:
It is sadly plain from your onward remarks yesterday, that you are reading selectively and slantedly in ways that work to score rhetorical points in the minds of the unwary, who do not cross check on claimed facts.
Notice for instance what I actually said above on the effect of your off-topic comments, and compare how you sliced off what I explicitly said I am NOT asserting, to pretend that I am being petulant:
D: you have simply fed ROKs prejudices and sadly slanderous points scoring by again making a point that I corrected in the previous thread as I recall. (If I were looking from a debate tactics perspective, I could say this is a calculated thread hijack attempt, probably coordinated. But I assume that on charity you simply have not realised the distractive, strawmannising and slander-feeding effect of raising the issue as you did here. Note, I requested that you notify me here and address mattes in the relevant thread, the science thread.)
Such recycling of already adequately answered distractive โ note O/T of this thread and I suggested we take back up the science thread where the context would be plainer โ and strawmannish points does not suggest that you are seeking to participate in responsible dialogue, if you pardon a direct remark.
What you did above, in response, is to slice out what I explicitly denied, as though that were what I were saying:
A, yesterday, in rebuttal: I was NOT attempting to score any points rhetorical or otherwise. I asked for clarification, you took offense.
So, you have technically agreed with my statement, whilei ndulging in an ad hominem soaked strawman, based on a selective citation that utterly twists what I said. That sounds rather like the pattern of behaviour you so stridently accused me of falsely challenging you on earlier.
As to the complaints on length, style and level etc — note onlookers; not substance! — I simply note that I have openly stated that I am moving the discussion up to the level of a college course (and indeed am using materials form just such a course), as that is what is needed, having first given an introductory primer.
You may not like to do the required homework, but that is what is required if you are going to discuss at an informed level on such topics.
Above, I laid out the case I have taken on worldviews choice, based on that; inviting response from the serious objector.
And, I can assure you, it will be very hard indeed to find comparable materials to this phil toolkit in as short a compass elsewhere on the net or in a textbook. (Take this as a 102 level survey of the key themes, tips, techniques and tools for serious wordviews analysis, not taking in the depths of technical mathematical logic. It assumes you have some acquaintance with basic critical thinking, such as here, which is based on materials that — as I have said — I have presented successfully as low as 4th – 6th formers. Since, ever since Socrates and Plato, it has been acknowledged that moving up to dialectics is personally challenging, and potentially revolutionizing of worldviews, I cannot hide that fact. [And BTW, that is precisely why I have said these materials provide a level playing field. I am confident enough of my wordview to put it on such a pitch — and note the toolkit course comes form a compulsory Seminary course, i.e. the leaders of evangelical theological education in the region are just as confident as I am. No prizes for guessing why.])
Onlookers: note how NOT ONE objector has for a week now responsed seriously.
That should tell us about the fundamental un-seriousness of the objections being raised above, so copiously, the latest being a sad reflection on the intellectually and spiritually damaging impact of Ms Rowling’s Harry Potter series on the alternative world of the magicians vs the stuck in the normal world muggles.
Also, observe how Anon simply never comes back on the point of those boring math textbooks and their tedious, elaborately logical proofs; in his haste to find dismissive remarks and cites he can twist into endorsements of dismissal.
Do you think that serious discussion of worldviews — with our souls at least potentially in stake — will be any less requiring of intellectual effort, given the subtleties of not only various possibilities but the works of those with manipulative agendas?
For, there is a difference between a world in which one has a generally accepted consensus worldview based on generally understood basic truths [still largely the case in the Caribbean], and one in which all is up for grabs, as all sort of worldview level questions and associated rhetorical grenades are being tossed around.
To navigate such an intellectual and spiritual minefield and battlefield is no easy task. (And that plainly is what this thread and this blog have become. ironic isn’t it that it is those who often boast of themselves as “brights” who are plainly challenged to step up to the plate of serious worldviews analysis and warrant.)
But, that necessity is why I have said: stop the madness:
(i) let us get back to the foundational issues and tools and techniques [as already linked in this post], then
(ii) let us take the matter up step by step, starting from the tools of worldviews analysis [as also already linked], then
(iii) let us outline a viable approach to warranting a worldview on credible self-evident test-truths, then
(iv) let us in particular assess the central warranting arguments of the now much objected to Christian faith. namely,
(v) the prime source document record of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection with 500+ witnesses, leading to the pouring out of life-transforming spiritual power on millions down to today. [Stuff that every educated Caribbean person should know about, and/or has access to if s/he is serious about an inquiry.]
Onlookers, observe how — day after day, week after week — not one of the many strident, often uncivil and agenda-promoting objectors has stepped up to the plate of serious dialogue on comparative difficulties.
(Note for instance, on having a link on the problems with the logic of Buddhism, from a competent philosopher addressing the matter at technical level, Anon has strategically shifted his rhetorical tack. Similarly, once I have linked on what I have to say on science vs the imposition of evoutionary materialism, that too has vanished from Anon’s list of active arguments. And, at no point is there a responsive remark on he merits about these objections that were so strongly headlined. That pattern is beginning to look like it is no accident.)
Such patterns of rhetorical games where serious dialogue is called for tell us a lot — and very little of it happy — about the real balance of the case on the merits and the pattern of motives and attitudes bound up in the objections, doesn’t it?
G’day
D
Onlookers:
I think we need to focus a bit on the responsibility of the one who stands up to teach or to publicly advocate, and the eternally freighted seriousness of such matters.
So, to parallel the warnings in 2 Peter 1 – 3 [as has been so well expounded above by GP], let us now examine James 3:
James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters,1 because you know that we will be judged more strictly.2 3:2 For we all stumble3 in many ways. If someone does not stumble4 in what he says,5 he is a perfect individual,6 able to control the entire body as well. 3:3 And if we put bits into the mouths of horses to get them to obey us, then we guide their entire bodies.7 3:4 Look at ships too: Though they are so large and driven by harsh winds, they are steered by a tiny rudder wherever the pilotโs inclination directs. 3:5 So too the tongue is a small part of the body,8 yet it has great pretensions.9 Think10 how small a flame sets a huge forest ablaze. 3:6 And the tongue is a fire! The tongue represents11 the world of wrongdoing among the parts of our bodies. It12 pollutes the entire body and sets fire to the course of human existence โ and is set on fire by hell.13 . . . .
3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct he should show his works done in the gentleness that wisdom brings.21 3:14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfishness in your hearts, do not boast and tell lies against the truth. 3:15 Such22 wisdom does not come23 from above but is earthly, natural,24 demonic. 3:16 For where there is jealousy and selfishness, there is disorder and every evil practice.
Peter’s closing arguments given on the eve of his execution for his stout eyewitness report of the resurrection of Jesus and preaching of the gospel of the risen Christ, add to this, powerfully:
2 Peter 3:3 Above all, understand this:8 In the last days blatant scoffers9 will come, being propelled by their own evil urges10 3:4 and saying,11 โWhere is his promised return?12 For ever since13 our ancestors14 died,15 all things have continued as they were16 from the beginning of creation.โ 3:5 For they deliberately suppress this fact,17 that by the word of God18 heavens existed long ago and an earth19 was formed out of water and by means of water. 3:6 Through these things20 the world existing at that time was destroyed when it was deluged with water. 3:7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, by being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly . . . .
3:15 And regard the patience of our Lord as salvation,51 just as also our dear brother Paul52 wrote to you,53 according to the wisdom given to him, 3:16 speaking of these things in all his letters.54 Some things in these letters55 are hard to understand, things56 the ignorant and unstable twist57 to their own destruction, as they also do to the rest of the scriptures.58 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned,59 be on your guard that you do not get led astray by the error of these unprincipled men60 and fall from your firm grasp on the truth.61 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge62 of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the honor both now and on63 that eternal day.
We have been warned, and warned in pretty plain words. In particular, we have been warned to watch for scoffing objectors who deliberately suppress the truth they know or should know, and those who are ignorantly twisting the scriptures into pretzels of false doctrine.
By contrast, we are counselled in the words of the Apostle Paul:
2 Tim 2:14 Remind people . . . and solemnly charge them25 before the Lord26 not to wrangle over words. This is of no benefit; it just brings ruin on those who listen.27 2:15 Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately.28 2:16 But avoid profane chatter,29 because those occupied with it will stray further and further into ungodliness,30 2:17 and their message will spread its infection31 like gangrene . . . However, Godโs solid foundation remains standing, bearing this seal: โThe Lord knows those who are his,โ34 and โEveryone who confesses the name of the Lord35 must turn away from evil.โ
2:20 Now in a wealthy home36 there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also ones made of wood and of clay, and some are for honorable use, but others for ignoble use.37 2:21 So if someone cleanses himself of such behavior,38 he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart, useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2:22 But keep away from youthful passions, and pursue righteousness, faithfulness, love, and peace, in company with others39 who call on the Lord from a pure heart.40 2:23 But reject foolish and ignorant41 controversies, because you know they breed infighting.42 2:24 And the Lordโs slave43 must not engage in heated disputes44 but be kind toward all, an apt teacher, patient, 2:25 correcting45 opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance and then knowledge of the truth46 2:26 and they will come to their senses and escape the devilโs trap where they are held captive47 to do his will.48
Let us therefore see how to keep an even keel and reasonable temper in the midst of all sorts of hot and contentious and nastily personal arguments, and let us heed the corrective voice. Let us note the hope that those captivated by deceptions may escape, and come tot he knowledge of the glorious truth.
G’day, friends
D
PS: Re ROK on Egypt. by expostulating at length on what Egyptian paganism was like, ROK has inadvertetnly managed to demonstrate the force of the points that were given to correct him. And, i tis quite plain that he wholly magical character of the paganism in view, up to and including the gods as described in the legend of Osiris [as pointed out a week ago . . . ], we can easily see that we are dealing with trafficking with the demonic. those who play with such matches will get seriously burned.
We have been warned.
PPS: Let us remind ourselves of what has been presented Jan 4 – 5 above:
Jan 4: key primer excerpts, here on
Jan 5: Worldviews analysis approach and challenge, here on.
Onlookers, given what has already happened over the past week or so, what odds do you give that any of the main objectors above will seriously take up the challenge now?
Poor deluded (and dishonest) Dictionary. He should change his name to “Don Quixote”!!
Prophecy (*/**)
(*)=Justin Hinds (**)=Little Roy
Anonymous:
Ad hominem.
Onlookers:
Observe carefully: Anonymous has still not addressed the matters on the merits.
G’day
D
@Dictionary
“what odds do you give that any of the main objectors above will seriously take up the challenge now?”
This is the problem. What objectors what? You have this thing in your mind like if you fighting a war. Chill out man cause I am not fighting any war with you.
I object to being called a scoffer when all I do is put forward another view. I also object to being called names for coming to my own conclusions. I object too to the putting down of Egypt just so you can hold up your bible.
I object to the demonising of the Ancient people of Egypt and discrediting them for the huge contribution they have made to this world and which you yourself enjoy.
Can anything good come out of Egypt for you? It is ridiculous to think that an empire that lasted over 3000 years could be so evil. You mean not one good person existed?
If you step down from your demeanor, you can have a reasonable discussion with me, otherwise, I really don’t want to hear you and don’t care to respond to your elongated monologues. You have become a demolition machine on auto pilot.
@Dictionary
“Re ROK on Egypt. by expostulating at length on what Egyptian paganism was like, ROK has inadvertetnly managed to demonstrate the force of the points that were given to correct him.”
You really don’t get it. I have not withheld or edited out what I though could be damaging, contradictory, or else. This is about truth. What the Egyptians did, they did.
If I told you that Christ went to the toilet you will want to prove to me that a god does not need a toilet.
Sickening!
New Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom crumbled in the Second Intermediate Period, but the country was again reunited by Theban rulers, who became the first pharaohs of the New Kingdom. They promoted their deity Amun to the position of supreme state god, and syncretized him with the long-established patron of kingship, Ra. The temple of Amun-Ra at Karnak in Thebes thus became the religious capital of Egypt. Increased contact with outside peoples in this period led to the adoption of many Near Eastern deities into the pantheon, while the subjugated Nubians absorbed Egyptian religious beliefs, and in particular, adopted Amun as their own.
The New Kingdom religious order was disrupted when Pharaoh Amenhotep IV replaced Amun with the Aten as the state god, and renamed himself Akhenaten in its honor. Eventually he prohibited the worship of gods other than the Aten, and moved Egypt’s capital to a new city at Amarna, for which this part of Egyptian history, the Amarna period, is named. In doing so Akhenaten claimed unprecedented status for himself, as an aspect of the Aten itself as well as its sole intermediary for worship. The Atenist system lacked well-developed mythology, moral philosophy, and afterlife beliefs, and the Aten itself seemed distant and impersonal, so the new order did not appeal to ordinary Egyptians. Thus, many of them continued to worship the traditional gods in private. Nevertheless, the withdrawal of state support for the other deities undermined the structure of Egyptian society. Akhenaten’s successors therefore restored the traditional religious system, and eventually they dismantled all Atenist monuments.
The confusion of the Amarna period resulted in a long-term decline in pharaonic religious influence, despite the efforts of later pharaohs to counteract it. As a backlash against Akhenaten’s claim to be the only interface between the populace and the gods, people began to believe that the gods were more directly involved in daily life. The pharaoh was therefore less significant, more human and less divine. At the same time, after the religious restoration the priesthood of Amun grew still more powerful, and these factors contributed to the breakdown of the New Kingdom.
Later periods
In the first millennium BC, Egypt was significantly weaker than in earlier times, and in several periods foreigners seized the country and assumed the position of pharaoh. Animal cults, a characteristically Egyptian form of worship, became increasingly popular in this period, possibly as a response to the uncertainty and foreign influence of this period. Isis grew more popular in this period as well, and eventually became the most important goddess in Egypt.
In the fourth century BC, Egypt became a Hellenistic kingdom under the Ptolemaic dynasty, which assumed the pharaonic role, maintaining the traditional religion and building or rebuilding many temples. The kingdom’s Greek ruling class identified the Egyptian deities with their own, and syncretized several Greek gods with Osiris and Apis to create Serapis, a new state god intended to unite the Greek and Egyptian communities. Nevertheless, for the most part the two belief systems remained separate, and the Egyptian deities remained Egyptian.
The Ptolemaic religious system changed little after Egypt became a province of the Roman Empire, with the Ptolemaic kings replaced by distant emperors. The cult of Isis appealed even to Greeks and Romans outside Egypt, and in Hellenized form it spread across the empire. In Egypt itself, however, knowledge of many of the details of Egyptian belief had become confined to the insular and shrinking temple priesthoods. The religion declined further in the first century AD, when Christianity and its exclusive monotheism arrived and began winning converts. In 383 AD, when Christianity had become the official religion of the empire, Emperor Theodosius I ordered the closing of all pagan temples, including those in Egypt. While it persisted among the populace for some time, Egyptian religion slowly faded away thereafter.
Onlookers:
The evasions, sadly, still continue. the point is that the central issues at stake are at worldviews level, and until there is a serious addressing of this, all else is rhetorical posturing.
For instance, once we see that he NT documents are in material part credible C1 primary source historical documents, and that they record eyewitness testimony tracing to 33 – 35 AD on the prophecy-fulfilling resurrection of Jesus with 500+ eyewitnesses, and have triggered 20 centuries of people meeting and being transformed by God in the [very Middle Eastern — pace ROK’s slander!] face of Christ, this sets a context for evaluating our whole view of the world based on what we do or should know.
In that context, alternative worldviews have to come up with some very good explanations indeed to account for the Warranted Credible Truths 1 – 7 as identified above, and also the key evidence on fulfilled prophecy at 700+ years range [Is 53 vs 1 Cor 15], and the stream of life transforming salvific power through the gospel of Christ.
Explanations that plainly are not forthcoming — or they would not only be trumpeted all over the Internet but would be assiduously cut and pasted all over this thread.
This is a case where silence is eloquent indeed!
And in the case of ROK, we look in vain for any sign of compunctions about proved slander.
Not to mention, regret for a sadly but utterly revealing confession on having padlocked his mind 30 years ago.
G’day
D
@Rok, Keep on posting the historic reality of Egyptian *paganism* your willingness, in ignorance, to resolutely CONFIRM exactly what we have been saying, is amazing. Thank you again!
Hear Rok Jan 9, @9:18 PM.
“During the Old Kingdom the priesthoods of the major *DEITIES* TRIED to organize the *CONFUSING* national PANTHEON into groups, each with their own MYTHOLOGY and cult center. It was the period that family TRIADS of *DEITIES* emerged…” emphasis added.
SATAN had a field DAY within Egyptian *mythology* what an all-fired, arrant, blighted, *CONFOUNDED* downright, flat-out *HELL-FIRED* mess of demonic deception he held over Egypt!!!
It IS no wonder that, “…the priesthoods of the major DEITIES (Demon gods) TRIED to organize the *CONFUSING* national PANTHEON into groups…” emphasis added.
The foolhardy Egyptian priest, tried organizing DEMON *gods* ‘…into GROUPS…”
This out-and-out MAZE of utter Satanic deception, just bred more and more CONFUSION, as IT always does…leading ultimately to RUINATION of these Pagan civilization…as history is replete with the facts and evidence of their demise!
“Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy”. –Dean Koontz
Respect for others Beliefs!!!???
From time to time ROK has called for RESPECT for others Beliefs!
This IS basic common sense, BUT, it must be carefully understood, that, One has to, or should RESPECT another person’s RIGHT to express their belief, NO matter how absurd or rediculous it may be.
But, what Rok et al DON’T seem to grasp, is this. This IS a world of difference BETWEEN respecting another persons RIGHT to *express* their BELIEF, *AND* calling on me et al to RESPECT what it IS they believe!
My civic duty to RESPECT another’s RIGHT to believe that the Moon is made of Green Cheeze, is one thing, BUT, to call on me et al to RESPECT that *rediculous* belief, IS NOT RIGHT!
Enough said!!
NOTE CAREFULLY:
No one on the side of the historic Judeo/Christian World view, is seeking to discredit Egypt’s contribution to mankind in the varied and many ways that it did. But, that IS not the point!
The development or discovery of many wonderful things within Egyptian civilization, HAS NOTHING to do with the subject of its Religious Paganism. Almighty God, our Creator of historic divine revelation, has given and blessed mankind, througout ALL civilizations, ancient and modern, many, many, and varied talents and abilities, regardless of if is was/is Athiestic, Pantheistic, Polytheistic, Animistic, etc, etc.
“Every good gift and every perfect gift IS from above, and comes down FROM the Father of lights, with whom there IS no variation or shadow of turning.” (James 1:17).
Not only is God NOT responsible for human sin, He IS the source of all good.
We were NEVER discusing Egypts inventions, etc, etc, or how much they contributed in Science, Mathematics, etc, as that was NOT the subject matter.
Many great inventions and discoveries were made by men who were Atheist, etc, BUT, this natural God given ability, DID NOT put them right with their Creator, Almighty God!!
What’s being discussed is the 2nd coming and the authenticity/originality of the birth that could bring about a 2nd coming.
Looking at the above, I can see the picture of a cow. You see the cow or Hathor or Hat-Heru was the Great Mother Cow from the Upper Hapi who provided nourishment for her young bull. Again this originated with the Black ones and later copied by the johnnies-come-lately.
@D
back to your christ
The word Christ – Greek means the anointed was copied from the Karast _ Kemetian meaning the embalmed and anointed mummy, a figure of resurrection and life after death. The Karast is also the ‘messu’ – again Kemetian for anointed one from whcih you get messiah.
Since Jesus’ birthday was in January, it was moved back to December 25, to coincide with that of Heru , and all the other Sun-gods that followed him. Dec 25th, was when Virgo constellation was in the eastern horizon and the Sun, which became the Son was born of the Virgin — Virgo.
In early christendom the christian crucified figure was a lamb i.e the image of the Sun in Aries, during the time when the equinox occurred in Aries.
In the temple of Luxor are 4 signs in a vignette depicting the Annunciation, the Conception, the Birth and the Adoration of the child Heru [your Jesus].
Your scripture of Jesus’ transfiguration on the Mount was also plagurised from the Osiris’ Transfiguration in the Mount of the Moon.
Isn’t it interesting how the ANTE-Christ has now become your ANTI-Christ?
Onlookers:
Let us first pause to explore a real current case of archaeology intersecting the Bible, and throwing light on the underlying authenticity of our OT text.
(Hopi, sadly, has of course yet again willfully failed to provide the empirically supported causal bridges — other than bold face declarations — of the claimed pagan roots of the NT text and Christian faith. Observe onlookers, how for weeks, these mocking and too often ignorant objectors have studiously refused to responsibly interact with actual issues required to show such asserted roots, e.g. cf. here, which was linked and cited from the very beginning. As just he fiorst step, the advocates for Egyptian paganism have failed to address cogently how pagan polytheism would have been accepted enough by the likes of a Jesus or a Paul or a James or a John to shape how they viewed Jesus as messiah — a Hebrew prophetic expectation deeply rooted in the OT. And one that the Dead Sea Scrolls show was strongly present in C1 Judaea, so much so that since the 1950’s responsible scholarship has more and more come to respect t e specifically Hebraic roots of the NT, as we may see from noted Canadian NT Scholar Craig Evans’ U Calgary 2004 Benthal public lecture; which again was linked and cited from the very beginning, and was just as willfully ignored by the closed minded objectors. In short, we have been subjected for weeks now to a barrage of selectively hyperskeptical irresponsible and often ignorant and closed minded objections, in Hopi’s case trying consistently to twist key terms, symbols and ideas into distorted images in our minds, the latest being the meaning of the key NT eschatological concept, the Anti- Christ. Sad, and one for prayer . . . )
Now, on focus for this contribution . . .
In recent years, archaeological investigations have been undertaken in the region of the valley of Elah, at Khirbet Qeiyafa [evidently the biblical SHAโARAYIM = “two gates, which is unique for that fortified site], a c. 1,000 BC [C-14 most probable date: 1,000 – 969 BCE] Iron Age II Israelite border fort 7 miles E of Gath (Philistine city-state and hometown of both Goliath and Ittai the Gittite, David’s Philistine general).
Now, University of Haifa has announced the academic translation of a potsherd written on in what is now credibly the earliest recovered Hebrew text. (This cuts clean across fashionable skeptical theories that Heb writing only dates tot he C6 BC, which then became a basis for speculations that the Biblical texts can only date to that era, of the Babylonian Captivity.)
The piece of clay jar used like we would use paper today [a common practice of the time], discovered at the site in 2008, was translated by prof Galil, thusly:
The deciphered text:
[Heb, in English letters]
[โฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆ]
1′ โl tโล wโbd โ[t โฆ.โฆ]
2′ ลกpt๏ฅ [โ]b[d] wโlm[n] ลกpt๏ฅ yt[m]
3′ [w]gr [r]b โll rb [d]l w
4′ โ[l]mn ลกqm ybd mlk
5′ โ[b]yn [w]โbd ลกk gr t[mk][English, per Galil;]
[โฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆโฆ]
1′ you shall not do [it], but worship the [Lord].
2′ Judge the sla[ve] and the wid[ow] / Judge the orph[an]
3′ [and] the stranger. [Pl]ead for the infant / plead for the po[or and]
4′ the widow. Rehabilitate [the poor] at the hands of the king.
5′ Protect the po[or and] the slave / [supp]ort the stranger. [HT Arutz Sheva’s Jan 8th 2010 report, “King David Era Pottery Shard Supports Biblical Narrative,” for providing the Heb transliteration.]
Now, Prof Galil comments:
“It indicates that the Kingdom of Israel already existed in the 10th century BCE and that at least some of the biblical texts were written hundreds of years before the dates presented in current research.”
“This text is a social statement, relating to slaves, widows and orphans. It uses verbs that were characteristic of Hebrew, such as asah (“did”) and avad (“worked”), which were rarely used in other regional languages. Particular words that appear in the text, such as almanah (“widow”) are specific to Hebrew and are written differently in other local languages. The content itself was also unfamiliar to all the cultures in the region besides the Hebrew society: The present inscription provides social elements similar to those found in the biblical prophecies and very different from prophecies written by other cultures postulating glorification of the gods and taking care of their physical needs,”
“It can now be maintained that it was highly reasonable that during the 10th century BCE, during the reign of King David, there were scribes in Israel who were able to write literary texts and complex historiographies such as the books of Judges and Samuel.” He adds that the complexity of the text discovered in Khirbet Qeiyafa, along with the impressive fortifications revealed at the site, refute the claims denying the existence of the Kingdom of Israel at that time.
The contents of the text express social sensitivity to the fragile position of weaker members of society. The inscription testifies to the presence of strangers within the Israeli society as far back as this ancient period, and calls to provide support for these strangers. It appeals to care for the widows and orphans and that the king โ who at that time had the responsibility of curbing social inequality – be involved. This inscription is similar in its content to biblical scriptures (Isaiah 1:17, Psalms 72:3, Exodus 23:3, and others), but it is clear that it is not copied from any biblical text.
a –> In short, yet again, selectively hyperskeptical fashionable modernist and post moderniest theological scholarship [which too often dominates in the more traditional denominations in the Caribbean, being, e.g. built into UWI’s theological education programmes as taught in UTCWI (Ja) and Codrington College (B’dos)] is up against findings of archaeology; and seems to be again coming up short.
b –> The fort [apparently falling out of use late in David’s reign, consistent with not only the biblical remark in 1 Chron 4:31 – 32 , but also the subjugation of the Philistines by David — observe, how they are never a serious military factor thereafter in Israel’s history], of course happens to be in the right spot for a border fort defending against invasions from Gath, fits into other findings about a major fortification programme at the time, and not only has pottery distinct from the Philistine types just 7 miles away, but its main gate is on the side towards Jerusalem.
c –> The translated text fits very well into the biblical picture of a nation self consciously serving YHWH under its greatest king, and has a moral tone, focus and allusive remarks that fit in precisely with the Mosaic law, but is sharply distinct from the moral climate and polytheistic focus of surrounding cultures.
d –> In short, we see a regionally unique, Mosaic-law shaped worldview and moral consciousness that fits into the Biblical, Ethical Monotheistic worldview centred on YHWH, the Creator-God of covenant, but is sharply distinct from the pagan polytheism that dominates elsewhere in the ANE.
e –> Even just the identification that his text is characteristically Hebrew rather than belonging to nearby related semitic languages is enough to blow up the fashionable skeptical theories, which come and go, while consistently, the Biblical text shines through as authentic. [Also, note how in the Biblical text, Hebrews and their neighbours, esp. Philistines, clearly can converse without great difficulty; as happens in the duel between David and Goliath of Gath. Egyptian, of course is a Hamitic language.]
f –> BTW, a similar pattern occurs with Genesis 14 [Abraham’s rescue of Lot], where โFor the first time, the biblical events are expressly co-ordinated with external history.โ Derek Kidner, Genesis (Chicago: InterVarsity Press, 1967), p. 118.
[ . . . ]
g –> As Bob Deffinbaugh outlines, allowing us to see just how precisely the text fits into the times:
The first block of nations was that of the four Mesopotamian kings of the east (14:2). Chedorlaomer, king of Elam (modern Iran), seems to have been dominant.148 Shinar was the region of ancient Babylon (cf. Genesis 10:10). The second alliance was made up of five kings, including the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah (14:2).
After 12 years as vessels of the four eastern kings, the five southern kings attempted to throw off their shackles. The eastern kings could not allow such rebellion to go unpunished. This revolt did not go unnoticed by others in the same plight (cf. 14:5-7). The economic results of ignoring the insurrection were too devastating to contemplate. The five southern kings controlled the territory through which the โway of the kingsโ passed. This was the land bridge through which commerce between Egypt and the four eastern kingdoms must pass. Whoever controlled this land bridge maintained a monopoly on international trade . . . .
the route of the conquest seems to be the โway of the kings,โ the trade route which the Mesopotamian kings sought to insure.150 The rebellion of the five southern kings may well have prompted similar acts from the other kingdoms. The four Mesopotamian kings thus sought to restore their sovereignty over the entire length of the trade route.
Secondly, the four kings sought to deal with the rebel kingdoms one at a time. By securing their position first with these other kingdoms the danger of attack from the rear was removed. The noose seems to be drawing tighter about these rebels as the account progresses.151 It may have been hoped that as victories continued to pile up for the four kings that a surrender would be preferable to defeat for the five southern kings . . .
h –> Of course, the eastern kings defeat their rebel vassals, and take Sodom (and Lot) captive, leading Abraham to mobilise his own retainers and allied tribes to go after them; inflicting a surprise attack that rescues the captives and their property, including Lot. (This tells us that Abraham was plainly a militarily experienced chieftain who disposed of a formidable regiment!)
i –> But, back on our main point, we see Abraham in the same text, interacting — and remember, the text has shown itself subtly accurate and authentic tot he relevant times and geo-political arrangements, giving it the proper presumption of trustworthiness — with Melchizedek, King of what would later be Jerusalem, long before the Israelite sojourn in Egypt, and half a millennium or more before Akhenaten:
Gen 14:17 After Abram43 returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet Abram44 in the Valley of Shaveh (known as the Kingโs Valley).45 14:18 Melchizedek king of Salem46 brought out bread and wine. (Now he was the priest of the Most High God.)47 14:19 He blessed Abram, saying,
โBlessed be Abram by48 the Most High God, Creator49 of heaven and earth.50
14:20 Worthy of praise is51 the Most High God, who delivered52 your enemies into your hand.โ
Abram gave Melchizedek53 a tenth of everything.
j –> In other words, the whole attempt to trace the Hebraic faith in the Most High Creator God, the God of covenant, to Egypt, fails to reckon with the most basic facts of the history, here authenticated by archaeologically anchored survey of the times. (Cf. also this wider, classic survey.)
k –> A far better understanding of the relationship between worship of the Most high and the rise of paganism is found in say Don Richardson’s ethnographically anchored study, Eternity in their Hearts. Many peoples, as they scattered across the earth [probably from the post-flood scattering of the nations], became more and more alienated from the Most High, and instead sought to placate earth and sky bound spirits to solve their problems. So, these spirits were soon gods, and the Most high was in a distant place, unreachable by desperate men. But, in many places a memory remained, and so son as the gospel was preached, the peoples flocked to he cross, as it was the welcome news that the Most high was reaching out tot hem in love and breaking the power of the demons.
l –> In that context, the emphasis on magic in Egyptian paganism — as the Osiris legend shows, even the gods are magicians — is very illuminating: we are here looking at adepts trying to deal with lesser spirit beings, in a context where the Most High has faded from memory. Soon, with the institution of pagan priestcraft, this becomes full-fledged polytheistic paganism.
m –> So then, let us hear Paul’s rebuke to such at Athens in 50 AD:
17:22 So Paul stood80 before the Areopagus and said, โMen of Athens, I see that you are very religious81 in all respects.82 17:23 For as I went around and observed closely your objects of worship,83 I even found an altar with this inscription:84 โTo an unknown god.โ Therefore what you worship without knowing it,85 this I proclaim to you. 17:24 The God who made the world and everything in it,86 who is87 Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by human hands,88 17:25 nor is he served by human hands, as if he needed anything,89 because he himself gives life and breath and everything to everyone.90 17:26 From one man91 he made every nation of the human race92 to inhabit the entire earth,93 determining their set times94 and the fixed limits of the places where they would live,95 17:27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around96 for him and find him,97 though he is98 not far from each one of us. 17:28 For in him we live and move about99 and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, โFor we too are his offspring.โ100 17:29 So since we are Godโs offspring, we should not think the deity101 is like gold or silver or stone, an image102 made by human103 skill104 and imagination.105 17:30 Therefore, although God has overlooked106 such times of ignorance,107 he now commands all people108 everywhere to repent,109 17:31 because he has set110 a day on which he is going to judge the world111 in righteousness, by a man whom he designated,112 having provided proof to everyone by raising113 him from the dead. [With of course 500+ witnesses and poured out spiritual transforming power in his name that now has transformed millions, including thousands all around us, if we would but listen]โ
_____________
So, then, the apostle to the nations has the last word (and in the end, the last laugh).
D
Onlookers:
Following up a point:
Now, I think we should also bring back to focus the seven WCT’s of Jan 5, as presented above. For, this will help us evaluate worldview choices on comparative difficulties — precisely what the mocking objectors in this thread have been evidently ever so eager not to do.
Such are plainly ever so intent on wedging apart the peoples of our region from the Biblical worldview and commitment to solid morality. Why? obviously, the better to make us ever so malleable to the manipulators and heirs to the old rapist of Africa, Cecil Rhodes.
So, now, let us look again (with a few slight adjustments from Jan 5)
W[arranted] C[redible] T[ruth] 1: Error exists, so we should recognise that truth exists as what is there that ewe may be in error about; truth saying of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not. Thus also, we may make mistakes about it so we need and OUGHT to be open to well-warranted correction. [As well, since we have a warranted, credible truth, knowable truth exists and radical relativist views that reject that knowledge of the truth is possible are immediately false. For instance “there are no absolutes” is a self-refuting absolute claim.]
WCT 2: The first, intuitive principles of real-world logic: [a] A thing is what it is (the law of identity); [b] A thing cannot at once be and not-be (the law of non-contradiction); [c] A thing cannot neither be nor not-be (the law of the excluded middle). In that context โ and Ari was discussing the nature of truth in Metaphysics 1011b, when he said what follows โ [d] the truth is that which says of what is, that it is, and of what is not, that it is not. [Cf clarifications and rebuttals to challenges here. And, kindly note, we are specifically speaking with reference to the experienced real world, so extensions to empty-set contexts in which issues over contrasted empty sets arise, are irrelevant.]
WCT 3: We live in a real world that exists, and contains individual things that also have real existence. (Just try to deny that and see where it lands you!)
WCT 4: That which exists has a good and logically sufficient reason/explanation โ notice the worldviews level application of abduction! โ as to why: i.e. (i) if it begins to exist and/or may go out of existence, it has a cause; and (ii) it is possible for one or more necessary beings to exist which are the ultimate causal grounds for such contingent beings as in (i). (And, since it is credible that we live in a contingent observed world and we are contingent ourselves, both it and us require an adequate causal explanation in a non-contingent, self-existent order of existence. On this, the former Steady State universe model proposed that a material cosmos was that necessary being, but the want of evidence has led to the collapse of this view. the evidence pointing to the beginning of the cosmos in which we live therefore points also beyond the observed cosmos, to an order of existence that grounds it. And to posit that it comes from nothing โ not space, time or matter or energy โ by nothing and for nothing, is therefore absurd on its face. [Indeed, that is why multiverse models are now a popular notion.])
WCT 5: As reflecting on the example of a fire will illuminate, causal โ as opposed to merely logical โ factors may be: (i) necessary [without which the result is blocked], (ii) sufficient [once present the result will happen or exist], (iii) necessary and sufficient (e.g. air, fuel and heat are each necessary for and are jointly sufficient to initiate and/or sustain a fire).
WCT 6: Evil exists (NB: best understood as the objectionable, harmful and destructive privation and/or perversion of the good), so that โ another Little Brown Sugar T-bone โ governing moral truth, principle and obligation objectively exist. Thus also, only a worldview that has a grounding IS that is a proper foundation for OUGHT is a reasonable faith. [This insight is actually one of decisive ones that Paul was alluding to.]
WCT 7: We, our circumstances, challenges and our common world are at least in significant part intelligible and discuss-able in light of reason, experience and good first principles used with good inferential logic. (Try to deny it and see where this gets you!)
Such truths, of course are self-evident, as is discussed in the posts of Jan 5th (Objectors, kindly refer to the originals and the links before trying strawman rebuttals please).
What does such a baseline cluster of credibly true facts do to help us choose a worldview?
Much:
19 โ> Worldviews are of course much broader than such a cluster of โfirst plausibleโ/ pretty certain WCTโs, even with considerable expansion. But, we have a cluster of criteria above that we deny on pain of evident absurdity, and which serve as a cluster of rock-hard basic facts and principles of reasoning that cut a considerable swath across the many worldview alternatives that are promoted in todayโs post-/ultra-modern world.
20 โ> Indeed, it turns out that the reason many ideologies and worldviews are prominent in todayโs marketplace of ideas and values, is that the WCTโs above are being ignored or suppressed or dismissed.
21 โ> For instance, on WCTs 1 and 2, radical relativism, and radical or selectively hyperskeptical views are utterly swept away.
22 โ> Similarly, on WCTโs 3 โ 5, worldview level โ or โscientificโ claims that boil down to denying cause-effect bonds, are swept away. In short, something that begins to exist does not come from nothing. And, given the material world that we observe credibly is not eternal or necessary, we need a good explanation of where our credibly complex and fine-tuned cosmos came from. And random quantum fluctuations in a primordial sub-cosmos etc, will have to compete on comparative difficulties with views that suggest that an intelligible, complexly ordered world finely balanced and set up to support life is the product of intelligence and intent.
23 โ> Similarly, only views that properly ground morality are credible. This sharpest edge of the blade of the problem of the one and the many cuts clean across evolutionary materialism and other monist views [even non-materialistic ones]. Indeed, it is also a deep challenge for pantheism and panentheism.
24 โ> Also โ and I am astonished I have to even raise this one โ views that imply or assert a primordial reality that is independent of an order of super-human beings/ gods/ daimons/ angels/ demiurges etc and then have to address the grounding of is and ought run seriously afoul of the Euthryphro dilemma.
25 โ> Cutting to the chase scene, given the further facts of the prophesies in Is 53 etc [700+ BC] and the historical fulfillment in Jesus of Nazareth: born of a virgin under the law and prophecies, loving and serving with โastonishing featsโ, then dying on a cruel cross at he sentence of a kangaroo court [but dying for our sins], then rising with 500+ witnesses and pouring out His Spirit though whom millions have come to intimately, personally know and be transformed by God in the [ROK and Hopi et al: very Middle Eastern . . . and this — hawk nose, brown eyes, brown hair, “unvarnished mahogany” complexion and all — just might be nearly right] face of Jesus ever since, sets up Judaeo-Christian, Redemptive Trinitarian Monotheism as the worldview to beat.
And, thus — while quite sad really — it is no surprise that the many scoffing and distractive or distorting and demonising objections given since Jan 5 have studiously avoided a fair, level playing field examination of the WCTs and the way they intersect with popular worldview notions of our day.
So, onlookers, let us think again, for ourselves; instead of staying docilely in the stocks and gazing at the hypnotising shadow shows of today’s secularist-neopagan and apostate version of Plato’s cave.
G’day
D
PS: On Hopi’s latest twisted symbol, the use of the pagan Isis and Horus iconography to say it is antecedent to the virginal conception and birth of Christ [Horus was supposedly posthumously conceived by the goddess Isis having intercourse with her dead husband-god, the murdered Osiris, which is utterly contrary to the supernatural miraculous birth of Jesus without sexual involvement: “I know not a man”], we note that Holding — as long since linked — aptly addressed this one:
Ron Leprohan, of the University of Toronto, pointed out that while sa means ‘son’ in ancient Egyptian and iu means ‘to come,’ Kuhn and Harpur have the syntax all wrong. In any event, the name Iusa simply does not exist in Egyptian. The name ‘Jesus’ is Greek, derived from a universally recognized Semitic name (Jeshu’a) borne by many people in the first century.
While all the scholars agreed that the image of the baby Horus and Isis has influenced the [much later than C1] Christian iconography of Madonna and Child, this is where the similarity stops. The image of Mary and Jesus is not one of the earliest Christian images — and, at any rate, there is no evidence for the idea that Horus was virgin born. Further, the New Testament Mary was certainly not a goddess, like Isis.
There is no evidence for the idea that Horus was ‘a fisher of men’ — or that his followers, the king’s officials, were ever 12 in number.
KRST is the word for ‘burial’ (‘coffin’ is written ‘KRSW’); but there is no evidence whatsoever to link this with the Greek title ‘Christos,’ or Hebrew ‘Mashiah.’
PPS: Forgot a link. Koukl’s argument from evil, linked under WCT 6.
PPPS: To see a shattering of Hopi’s latest claims (and a glimpse at likely sources — note how Hopi consistently does not give sources, as though she is ashamed of or afraid for them . . . ), kindly see James Patrick Holding here.
I am sure JPH, old pal, you will not mind my excerpting in full:
++++++++++++
Of all the pagan copycat candidates, Osiris and Horus are two that look if any to be a major threat. Egypt after all is not far from Palestine, and Jews did live in Egypt; it is not theoretically improbable that they could steal an idea for a Jesus from this place.
But did they? The field is rife with claims, but as usual there is a great deal of filching of Christian terms to describe Egyptian events (not all of it with bad intentions) and a great deal of non-citation of sources for fabulous claims.
* Osiris
o Had well over 200 divine names, including Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods, Resurrection and the Life, Good Shepherd, Eternity and Everlastingness, the god who “made men and women to be born again.”
o Coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris’ star in the east, Sirius, significator of his birth
o Was a devoured Host. His flesh was eaten in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the ‘plant of Truth’.
o The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the ‘green pastures’ and ‘still waters’ of the nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul and body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow of death…
o The Lord’s Prayer was prefigured by an Egyptian hymn to Osiris-Amen beginning, ‘O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven. Amen was also invoked at the end of every prayer.
o The teachings of Osiris and Jesus are wonderfully alike. Many passages are identically the same, word for word.
o As the god of the vine, a great traveling teacher who civilized the world. Ruler and judge of the dead.
o In his passion, Osiris was plotted against and killed by Set and “the 72.”
o Osiris’ resurrection served to provide hope to all that they may do likewise and become eternal.
* Horus
o Was born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
o His earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”).
o He was of royal descent.
o At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
o Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer” (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.
o He ad 12 disciples, two of whom were his “witnesses” and were named “Anup” and “AAn” (the two “Johns”).
o He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”) from the dead.
o Horus walked on water.
o His personal epithet was “Iusa” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.” He was called the “Holy Child.”
o He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.”
o Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
o He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected.
o Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God’s Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth.
o Was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion.
o He came to fulfill the Law.
o Was called “the KRST” or “Anointed One.”
o Was supposed to reign one thousand years.
That’s quite a list, but let’s make it simple to start: A good number — at least half — are so far as I have seen bogus. There has not been a shred of evidence for many of these in any book of Egyptian religion I have thus far consulted.
For convenience I begin by reproducing the “thumbnail sketch of Horus’ life” given in Encyclopedia of Religions as offered by Miller, which also lays the groundwork for Osiris:
“In ancient Egypt there were originally several gods known by the name Horus, but the best known and most important from the beginning of the historic period was the son of Osiris and Isis who was identified with the king of Egypt. According to myth, Osiris, who assumed the rulership of the earth shortly after its creation, was slain by his jealous brother, Seth. The sister- wife of Osiris, Isis, who collected the pieces of her dismembered husband and revived him, also conceived his son and avenger, Horus. Horus fought with Seth, and, despite the loss of one eye in the contest, was successful in avenging the death of his father and in becoming his legitimate successor. Osiris then became king of the dead and Horus king of the living, this transfer being renewed at every change of earthly rule. The myth of divine kingship probably elevated the position of the god as much as it did that of the king. In the fourth dynasty, the king, the living god, may have been one of the greatest gods as well, but by the fifth dynasty the supremacy of the cult of Re, the sun god, was accepted even by the kings. The Horus-king was now also “son of Re.” This was made possible mythologically by personifying the entire older genealogy of Horus (the Heliopolitan ennead) as the goddess Hathor, “house of Horus,” who was also the spouse of Re and mother of Horus.
“Horus was usually represented as a falcon, and one view of him was as a great sky god whose outstretched wings filled the heavens; his sound eye was the sun and his injured eye the moon. Another portrayal of him particularly popular in the Late Period, was as a human child suckling at the breast of his mother, Isis. The two principal cult centers for the worship of Horus were at Bekhdet in the north, where very little survives, and at Idfu in the south, which has a very large and well- preserved temple dating from the Ptolemaic period. The earlier myths involving Horus, as well as the ritual per- formed there, are recorded at Idfu.”
Osiris
* Had well over 200 divine names, including Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods, Resurrection and the Life, Good Shepherd, Eternity and Everlastingness, the god who “made men and women to be born again.”
#
The titles I have found ascribed to Osiris are [Fraz.AAO] Lord of All, the Good Being (the most common title), Lord of the Underworld, Lord/King of Eternity, Ruler of the Dead, [Griff.OO] Lord of the West, Great One, [Bud.ERR, 26] “he who takes seat,” the Begetter, the Ram, [Bud.ERR, 79] “great Word” (as in, “the word of what cometh into being and what is not” — a reflection of the ancient idea of the creative power of speech, found likewise in the Greek Logos), “Chief of the Spirits”; [Short.EG, 37] ruler of everlastingness, [Meek.DL, 31] “living god,” “God above the gods.”
All of these are either general titles we would expect to be assigned to any head honcho deity, or else are related to Osiris’ command over the underworld. None of the ones cited closest and uniquely like unto Jesus were found.
# Coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris’ star in the east, Sirius, significator of his birth. While some scholars connect Osiris with Orion, they do not know anything about wise men or a star in the east.
# Was a devoured Host. His flesh was eaten in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the ‘plant of Truth’. Not that anyone in the scholarly lit has reported.
# The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the ‘green pastures’ and ‘still waters’ of the nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul and body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow of death… If this is so, no commentator in Egyptian religion or the OT knows about it. Osiris would possibly be known as a shepherd as such imagery was common in the ANE, but I have not seen it yet applied to him by anyone but mythicists.
# The Lord’s Prayer was prefigured by an Egyptian hymn to Osiris-Amen beginning, ‘O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven.’ Amen was also invoked at the end of every prayer. If so, we want to know where this prayer is recorded, and so would experts in Egyptian religion. The Hebrew “Amen” is never used as a salutation and means “let it be so” which means it is not “invoked” as a deity is.
Beyond that, let’s see an etymological connection based on the original languages, not on the correspondence of English characters.
# The teachings of Osiris and Jesus are wonderfully alike. Many passages are identically the same, word for word. If so, someone needs to put them side by side and prove it. The Egyptian religious scholars don’t seem aware of it.
# As the god of the vine, a great traveling teacher who civilized the world. Ruler and judge of the dead. This is a bit non-specific. Frazer reported [Fraz.AAO, vii, 7] that Osiris taught winemaking and agriculture, gave the Egyptians laws, taught them proper worship, and traveled the word teaching these things.
But this is the claim that was made of Dionysus as well, and we have answered that point within that essay. Not that it matters, since it seems literature written by scholars of Egyptian religion do not treat them as the same, though some connect Osiris and Orion, and Budge notes the travels but does not connect Osiris and Dionysius [Bud.ERR, 9]. In any event Osiris is nowhere called a “god of the vine”.
He is ruler and judge of the dead, but this doesn’t describe Jesus, who represents a God who is not God of the dead, “but of the living.” At most it represents what might be expected of any supreme deity: to rule and to judge.
# In his passion, Osiris was plotted against and killed by Set and “the 72.” This is a combination of terminological fudging, half-truth, and irrelevancy. There was no “passion” — in the incident alluded to, Osiris was indeed plotted against by Set. There was a big party, at which Set had a coffin brought in and encouraged everyone, including 72 participants in the scheme and one queen of Ethiopia, to lay down for a fit. Finally it came O’s turn, and he was persuaded to lay down in the coffin. Once O was inside, Set nailed the coffin shut and threw it in the river; O suffocated.
Note that the 72 here are enemies of O, not his disciples: only the number — a multiple of 12, a number we still hold in regard today when we purchase eggs and donuts — is a common touchpoint (and that only in some mss. of Luke 10; others put the number at 70, possibly representing the number of Gentile nations, according to the Jews). They do nothing at all that could be considered like what Jesus’ disciples did.
As the story goes further, O’s wife Isis went looking for the coffin. She found it in Syria, where it had been incorporated into the pillar of a house. She lamented so loudly that some kids in the house died of fright. Later she took it out, opened it up, then went looking for Horus.
Meanwhile Set found the coffin and tore the body in 14 pieces which he threw all over the place. In one result Isis went looking for the pieces and buried them as she found them. An alternate story has Isis, Anubis, and Ra piecing the body together, swathing it with bandages, and reviving him — more on this below.
# Osiris’ resurrection served to provide hope to all that they may do likewise and become eternal. This is where we find some of the biggest misuse of terminology, including by some Egyptian scholars of religion (who do not go on to posit a “copycat” relationship!). Osiris resurrected? Not if “resurrection” is defined as coming back in a glorified body. On this point Miller has done some substantial work, reporting the words of J. Z. Smith, so I will let these speak to begin:
“Osiris was murdered and his body dismembered and scattered. The pieces of his body were recovered and rejoined, and the god was rejuvenated. However, he did not return to his former mode of existence but rather journeyed to the underworld, where he became the powerful lord of the dead. In no sense can Osiris be said to have ‘risen’ in the sense required by the dying and rising pattern (as described by Frazer et.al.); most certainly it was never considered as an annual event.”
“In no sense can the dramatic myth of his death and reanimation be harmonized to the pattern of dying and rising gods (as described by Frazer et.al.).”
“The repeated formula ‘Rise up, you have not died,’ whether applied to Osiris or a citizen of Egypt, signaled a new, permanent life in the realm of the dead.”
Frankfort concurs:
“Osiris, in fact, was not a ‘dying’ god at all but a ‘dead’ god. He never returned among the living; he was not liberated from the world of the dead, as Tammuz was. On the contrary, Osiris altogether belonged to the world of the dead; it was from there that he bestowed his blessings upon Egypt. He was always depicted as a mummy, a dead king.” [Kingship and the gods: a study of ancient Near Eastern religion as the integration of society & nature. UChicago:1978 edition, p.289]
Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very different from Christ’s resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in the abode of the dead. As biblical scholar, Roland de Vaux, wrote, “What is meant of Osiris being ‘raised to life?’ Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead.โฆ This revived god is in reality a ‘mummy’ god.”… No, the mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected Christ…As Yamauchi observes, “Ordinary men aspired to identification with Osiris as one who had triumphed over death.” But it is a mistake to equate the Egyptian view of the afterlife with the biblical doctrine of resurrection. To achieve immortality the Egyptian had to meet three conditions: First, his body had to be preserved by mummification. Second, nourishment was provided by the actual offering of daily bread and beer. Third, magical spells were interred with him. His body did not rise from the dead; rather elements of his personality-his Ba and Ka-continued to hover over his body. [“The Resurrection of Jesus Christ: Myth, Hoax, or History?” David J. MacLeod, in The Emmaus Journal, V7 #2, Winter 98, p169
Frazer [Fraz.AAO, viii] wrote that every dead man was given Osiris’ name on top of his own in order to identify with the god.
So O’s “resurrection” is no resurrection at all — and in fact was actually a sort of function of the way the Egyptian gods were, shall we say, being half Frankenstein, half Lego set. There are in fact many stories of the Egyptian gods flinging various body parts around, and to no overall harm, because “divine bodies were thought to be impervious to change” [Meek.DL, 57] and so O’s dead body neither rotted nor decomposed as it waited to be put back together.
This is how it was with all these Egyptian gods: Seth and Horus have a fight in which they throw dung at each other then steal each others’ genitals [Bud.ERR, 64]. Horus’ eye is stolen by Set, but Horus gets it back and gives it to Osiris, who eats it [ibid., 88]. Horus had a headache, and another deity offers to loan him his head until the headache went away [Meek.DL, 57]. Osiris did pay a price for his dismembering death, in that he was limited to the world of the dead [and manifestly ignorant as a result of what went on “above ground” — Meek.DL, 88-9], but that is only because he had actually died once before when his father accidentally killed him [ibid., 80].
Horus
Now we get to the matters of Horus. Many of these have had some input from Miller, so we’ll report those and add as needed.
* Was born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men. The lit has confirmed what Miller offers, and I have also seen the depiction he refers to below. I have found no reference to a cave/manger — Frazer [Fraz.AAO, 8] has Horus born in the swamps, and knows nothing about a star or Wise Men, of any number.
…Horus was NOT born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld (EOR, s.v. “Phallus”). And the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us–nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus’ birth at all.
Indeed, the description of the conception of Horus will show exactly the sexual elements that characterize pagan ‘miracle births’, as noted by the scholars earlier:
“But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris’ body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris’s body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it (hence the many tombs of Osiris tht exist in Egypt). The only part that she did not find was the god’s penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth…” [CANE:2:1702; emphasis mine] [BTW, the Hebrew word ‘satan’ is not a ‘cognate’ of the name ‘seth’ by any means: “The root *STN is not evidenced in any of the cognate languages in texts that are prior to or contemporary with its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible” DDD, s.v. 1369f]
The one reference I have found to a birth of Horus has him born on the 31st day of the Egyptian month of Khoiak — the mythers have a one in 365 chance that this matches Dec. 25th!
___________
On the Luxor Temple Carving
Many mythicists claim that on the walls of the Luxor Temple is a scene showing the “Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kenph, the ‘Holy Ghost,’ impregnating the virgin,” complete with three wise men. When pressed by an inquirer at her site about this claim, Acharya S said: “Isis is the constellation of Virgo the Virgin, as well as the Moon, which becomes a ‘virgin’ during when it is new. The sun god – in this case, Horus – is born of this Virgin goddess.” — and alludes to a document from the 6th century AD!
No substantiation is offered for the Isis-Virgo connection at all; it has no more authority than saying “Isis is Gomer the prostitute.” If such a carving exists it is only what Acharya thinks it is via the interpretation of Massey.
A writer recently sent this description from an Egyptian tour site: “Kingship was believed to be ordained by the gods at the beginning of time in accordance with ma’at., the well-ordered state, truth, justice, cosmic order. The reigning king was also the physical son of the Creator sun-god. This divine conception and birth was recorded on the walls of Luxor Temple, at Deir el-Bahri, and other royal cult temples throughout Egypt. The king was also an incarnation of the dynastic god Horus, and when deceased, the king was identified with the father of Horus, Osiris. This living king was thus a unique entity, the living incarnation of deity, divinely chosen intermediary, who could act as priest for the entire nation, reciting the prayers, dedicating the sacrifices…
A peristyle forecourt of Amenhotep III is fused with the hypostyle hall, which is the first room in the inner, originally roofed, part of the temple. This leads to a series of for antechambers with subsidiary rooms. The Birth Room east of the second antechamber is decorated with reliefs showing the symbolic divine birth of Amenhotep III resulting from the union of his mother Mutemwiya and the god Amun.
The bark sanctuary includes a free-standing building added by Alexander the Great within the larger chamber created by Amenhotep III. Well-preserved reliefs show Amun’s portable bark shrine and other scenes of the king in the presence of the gods. The sanctuary of Amenhotep III is the last room on the central axis of the temple.”
This is significantly devoid of a virgin conception or birth, wise men, or a Holy Ghost. You might squeeze an adoration out of it, but who does not adore newborns anyway?
But now see the trump card, provided by a Skeptic ashamed of such a thesis; see here. You can also find more about the Luxor temple carving from my book Shattering the Christ Myth.
______________
* His earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”). Actually Seb was the earth-god, not “earthly,” but rather the earth itself (as Nut was the sky), and he was O’s dad, not Horus’, though one of my helpful researchers tells me there is one version in which Horus was the son of Seb. And don’t fall for the etymological trick or treat: You can’t get from “Seb” to “Joseph” just by putting the names next to each other.
* He was of royal descent. Obviously true, and Horus was often identified with the living Pharaoh, but so commonplace as to be meaningless.
* At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
* Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer” (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.
* He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his “witnesses” and were named “Anup” and “AAn” (the two “Johns”). Egyptian religion scholars know of none of this. On this last Miller notes:
…my research in the academic literature does not surface this fact. I can find references to FOUR “disciples”–variously called the semi-divine HERU-SHEMSU (“Followers of Horus”) [GOE:1.491]. I can find references to SIXTEEN human followers (GOE:1.196). And I can find reference to an UNNUMBERED group of followers called mesniu/mesnitu (“blacksmiths”) who accompanied Horus in some of his battles [GOE:1.475f; although these might be identified with the HERU-SHEMSU in GOE:1.84]. But I cannot find TWELVE anywhere… Horus is NOT the sun-god (that’s Re), so we cannot use the ‘all solar gods have twelve disciples–in the Zodiac’ routine here.]
* He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”) from the dead. Miller notes:
Miracle stories abound, even among religious groups that could not possibly have influenced one another, such as Latin American groups (e.g. Aztecs) and Roman MR’s, so this ‘similarity’ carries no force. The reference to this specific resurrection I cannot find ANYWHERE in the scholarly literature. I have looked under all forms of the name to no avail. The fact that something so striking is not even mentioned in modern works of Egyptology indicates its questionable status. It simply cannot be adduced as data without SOME real substantiation. The closest thing to it I can find is in Horus’ official funerary role, in which he “introduces” the newly dead to Osirus and his underworld kingdom. In the Book of the Dead, for example, Horus introduces the newly departed Ani to Osirus, and asks Osirus to accept and care for Ani (GOE:1.490).
* Horus walked on water. Not that I have found, but he was thrown in the water (see below).
* His personal epithet was “Iusa” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.” He was called the “Holy Child.” Miller says:
This fact has likewise escaped me and my research. I have looked at probably 50 epithets of the various Horus deities, and most major indices of the standard Egyptology reference works and come up virtually empty-handed. I can find a city named “Iusaas” [GOE:1.85], a pre-Islamic Arab deity by the name of “Iusaas”, thought by some to be the same as the Egyptian god Tehuti/Thoth [GOE:2.289], and a female counterpart to Tem, named “Iusaaset” [GOE:1.354]. But no reference to Horus as being “Iusa”… ]
* He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.”
* Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
* He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected. None of these three can be found, either. On the last Miller writes:
I can find no references to Horus EVER dying, until he later becomes “merged” with Re the Sun god, after which he ‘dies’ and is ‘reborn’ every single day as the sun rises. And even in this ‘death’, there is no reference to a tomb anywhere…
I found in Budge one idea that Horus had died and been cast in pieces in the water, and his parts were fished out by Sebek the crocodile god at Isis’ request. But that’s a funny sort of baptism at best (see above). Another source notes a story where Horus is bitten by a snake and revived, which is still not much of a parallel.
* Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God’s Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth. I found thesed titles: [Bud.ERR, 78] Great God, Chief of the Powers, Master of Heaven, Avenger of His Father (since he beat up Set, who “killed” Osiris). He may have been called rightly “Son of Man” as the son of royalty (see here) but I have found no evidence for this.
* Was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion.
* He came to fulfill the Law.
* Was called “the KRST” or “Anointed One.”
* Was supposed to reign one thousand years. I have found no evidence for any of these last four.
Conclusion: This one seems to be full of ringers. It remains to be seen if mythicists can document these claims.
Sources:
# Bud.ERR — Budge, E. Wallis. . 1961.
# Fraz.AAO — Frazer, J. G. Adonis, Attis, Osiris. 1961.
# Griff.OO — Griffith, J. Gwyn. The Origins of Osiris and His Cult. Brill: 1996.
# Meek.DL — Meeks, Dimitri. Daily Life of the Egyptian Gods. 1996.
# Short.EG — Shorter, Alan. Egyptian Gods: A Handbook. 1937.
+++++++++++
Some very familiar and plainly ill-founded claims, folks!
ROK // January 9, 2010 at 6:18 AM
@John
It would seem that I donโt need to respond to you. All that you say is correct if you deem it to be correct. OR if GP deem it to be correct for you.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Remember I asked you to consider some questions and then proceeded to show that the timeline on Egyptโs attempt to become monotheistic matches pretty well with the correction a previous generation of Egyptians received when that generation attempted to stand in the way of God and not free His chosen people?
Consider the question: Did this pharaoh exist before or after the flood?
Some timelines put the flood between 2400 and 2300BC but I suspect none to be very accurate and are plus or minus significant error.
Here is what you wrote about the history of ancient Egypt.
โIn the 22nd century BC, the Old Kingdom collapsed into the disorder of the First Intermediate Period, with important consequences for Egyptian religionโ.
Here is another question to consider.
Could โthe collapse in disorderโ of the Old Kingdom in 22BC have anything to do with a flood?
Interestingly the gap between the flood and the pharaoh you speak of is about 1000 years and Moses and the Exodus occurred in this gap of 1000 years.
John
Your questions are certainly pointed poignant and pertinent?
@Dic………Remind me again as to which side you are on! You have just DERACINATED yourself!
@All you christians…….The Kemetians did not worship many gods. They honoured the Gods and Goddesses the same way you honour your dishonest, corrupt political, religious and royal figure heads. The difference between the Kemetians and you today is that that society lived by MA’AT, whereas you live by the 70×7 rule & do as you please because Jesus Christ died for your sins.
Ms Hopi
FYI, the race (or races) I belong to — being of tri-continental ancestry — has nothing to do with what is objectively true about the past, and especially about Christian origins.
In a context of ruth towards serving God, race is an utter irrelevancy.
Further to this, it is a matter of plain and massive record, and has been copiously documented above by ROK, that Egyptian polytheism was just that: polytheistic, i.e. pagan.
G’day
D
The blogmaster invites you to join the discussion.