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ROK // January 2, 2010 at 10:54 PM
@John
As the last nation emerging from the Nile Valley, Egypt is said to have started sometime within 6000 โ 5000 BC. The Sumerian nation is said to have been the first. You need to do some research on the Nile Valley Nations. Check here for a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_powers#Ancient_Powers
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is what I found.
“Ancient Egypt was one of the world’s first civilizations, with its beginnings in the fertile Nile valley around 3000BC.”
ROK
Yet the biblical scholars have dated the beginning of the world at 5000 years.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Are you sure about this?
Please quote a source.
ROK
I did say that I did not come to deceive. I hope that satisfies you.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jury still out!!
@John
“โAncient Egypt was one of the worldโs first civilizations, with its beginnings in the fertile Nile valley around 3000BC.โ”
I do not think that the 3000BCE date is correct. If I am not mistaken the 14th Dynasty was around 1700 BCE and Egypt was a nation before there were dynasties. There were some writings or artifacts dating back to 3100 BCE. I have to admit that I am going a lot from memory right now, but I can’t be that far off.
There is also a very large gap between the Sumerians and the Egyptians. As a matter of fact, Egypt was built on top of the Sumerian ruins. Same site.
ROK // January 2, 2010 at 11:16 PM
@John
Futher, prior to the Sumerians which is being termed as the first civilisation, peoples, villages, nations, however you want to term them existed long before.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Accepted, however check this site.
http://history-world.org/sumerian_floor_story.htm
Nobody really knows for sure!!
Would just like to point out however that you said in your fundamental truths that:
“the religion which Egypt adopted was handed down from generation to generation ”
and I don’t see how this could be termed a truth, far less a fundamental truth ….
….. it is an assumption on your part for which you can provide no basis.
I don’t think that until now you have mentioned Sumeria in its own right.
You seem to confuse Sumeria and Egypt whenever you do.
The Bible gives a creation story of the first man and woman.
It follows that all mankind is descended from these two.
Wouldn’t you expect that descendants of the first man and woman would all have similar creation stories given that they all came from the same two people?
Why do you find this surprising?
A set of people in one place would not need to copy the story from a set of people in another place if both sets of people originate from the same source.
Don’t similarities in creation stories from people in one place to people in another not reinforce one creation?
Check also the story of the flood …… found all over the world in early peoples.
I admit this is simple logic ….. but it is also compelling and certainly makes me sit up and take note.
I have cousins in the US I have never met.
They are descended from my grandfather who took his children, including my father, there in 1915, immigrants through Ellis Island.
I would expect that if I ever met them they would tell me something about my father or grandfather that I would have heard via my father, either directly or through my mother.
If you were to speak to them separately from me not knowing the connection and they told you something I had also told you I have no doubt that until you had figured out the connection you would be awe struck ….. or swear blind one of us was copying from the other.
@John
Take a read because I am not sure where you are searching:
The Byzantine Calendar, also “Creation Era of Constantinople,” or “Era of the World” (Greek: ฮฯฮท ฮฮตฮฝฮญฯฮตฯฯ ฮฯฯฮผฮฟฯ ฮบฮฑฯฮฌ ‘ฮกฯฮผฮฑฮฏฮฟฯ ฯ ,[1] also ฮฯฮฟฯ ฮฯฮฏฯฮตฯฯ ฮฯฯฮผฮฟฯ or ฮฯฮฟฯ ฮฯฯฮผฮฟฯ ) was the Calendar officially used by the Eastern Orthodox Church from ca. AD 691 to 1728 in the Ecumenical Patriarchate, by the Byzantine Empire from AD 988 to 1453, and in Russia from ca. AD 988 to 1700. Derived from the Septuagint version of the Bible, it placed the date of creation at 5,509 years before the Incarnation, and was characterized by a certain tendency which had already been a tradition amongst Hebrews and Jews to number the years from the foundation of the world. (Latin: Annus Mundi /โAb Origine Mundiโ (AM)). Its year one, the supposed date of creation, was September 1, 5509 BC to August 31, 5508 BC.
Also:
The era was ultimately calculated as starting on September 1st, and Jesus was thought to have been born in the year 5509 Annus Mundi (AM) – the year since the creation of the world. Thus historical time was calculated from the creation, and not from Christ’s birth, as in the west. The Eastern Church avoided the use of the Anno Domini system of Dionysius Exiguus, since the date of Christ’s birth was debated in Constantinople as late as the 14th century.
@John
“I have no doubt that until you had figured out the connection you would be awe struck โฆ.. or swear blind one of us was copying from the other.”
John, right now I spoon feeding you and I do not have that wish. Your logic escapes me.
You obviously don’t believe that a culture is not passed from generation to generation. That is your problem but from my knowledge, this is a very natural human phenomenon.
The very scholars recognise that christianity is a mixed up combination of old religious stories or mythology. You ever heard of the Oral Torah?
Next thing, it is not Sumeria, it is Sumer and the people were called Sumerians. If you check my previous comments over the time I have been on this blog, I have mentioned that Egypt was build on the Sumerian ruins.
Please stop accusing me. Like you going beserk too. If the information is too much for you, take my silly advice and leave it alone. It really does not matter.
I had stopped discussing this in public a long time ago because I saw that it made people uneasy and they would rather not know. As I told David, a shattered faith can have devastating consequences for the person who is not ready.
Stop picking at me and search for yourself or simply give up the search. Please don’t come back crying again. You sound like you crying and wailing.
Info on the Egyptian Dynasties. The first one is dated 3100 BCE – 2900 BCE:
@John
I would really like to know how you searching???
I here doing some simple searches and finding the information.
There was also the pre-dynastic period. Check:
Faiyum A Culture (Neolithic):
Continued desiccation forced the early ancestors of the Egyptians to settle around the Nile more permanently and forced them to adopt a more sedentary lifestyle. The period from 9,000 to 6,000 BC has left very little in the way of archaeological evidence; however, around 6,000 BC Neolithic settlements have been found all over Egypt. Weaving is evidenced for the first time during the Faiyum A Period, but unlike later Egyptian settlements, their dead were buried very close to and sometimes, inside their own settlements.
Although archaeological sites reveal very little about this time, an examination of the many Egyptian words for city can provide a hypothetical list of reasons why the Egyptians settled. In Upper Egypt, the words for city indicate that they functioned for trade and protection of livestock, for protection from the flood on high ground, or, as sacred sites for deities.
Merimde Culture
Main article: Merimde culture
From about 5000 to 4200 BC the Merimde Culture, so far only known from a big settlement site at the edge of the Western Delta, flourished in Lower Egypt. The culture has strong connections to the Faiyum A Culture, but also links to the Levant. People lived in small huts, produced a simple undecorated pottery and had stone tools. Cattle, sheep, goats and pigs were held. Wheat, sorghum and barley were planted. The Merimde people buried the dead within the settlement and produced clay figurines. The first Egyptian lifesize head made of clay comes from Merimde.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predynastic_Period_of_Egypt
You are invited to read “The Newest Pretrib Calendar” and “Pretrib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice” which I found while Googling. Lou
@Lou
We discussing one myth already. David should start a blog on 2012 though. Probably the hottest topic outside Barbados.
Onlookers:
You will observe that, above, ROK was caught out in false accusations, willfully made in the face of direct and longstanding evidence to the contrary.
He, sadly, has not apologised.
Worse, he has not retracted.
Instead he went on to compare the one who exposed him to Hitler:
You remind me of one eccentric old man that expects people to do as you say . . . . This is the kind of Hitler type dictatorial behaviour you trying to resort to in order to preserve your religion?
Remember, all this is in response to exposing a specific case of false accusation [that Evangelicals, including specifically Zoe, GP and I, teach a blondy, bluey eyed Jesus, and in that context are by implication expressing a myth of white, European supremacy and worship of a white god; denigrating the African race . . . ], for which ROK has nowhere given the faintest trace of compunction or apology or change of heart and behaviour in response to correction, not dictatorship.
Indeed, instead, he doubled down on false accusations and slanders, playing the Hitler card. [And BTW, it is therefore not without telling significance that he specifically associated my correction of antisemitic assertions by Kiki with this.]
(David, why have you not specifically called ROK out for this playing of the Hitler card? Or, for slander. Surely, BU cannot tolerate slander as a normal or acceptable pattern of behaviour? if it does so, what is the predictable result for BU as a blog, and what will decent people looking on therefore — for good reason — conclude about the state of the Bajan heart and mind (not to mention manners) in this the year of our Lord 2010?)
So also, we now know or should know that ROK regards moral and civil accountability on basic fairness, truthfulness and respect for others as “Hitler type dictatorial behaviour.
That alone should tell us just how destructive his behavioural pattern has been; for plainly this is a turnabout false accusation: it is he who is hoping to get away with law-unto-himself, uncivil conduct.
And, that many above have allowed him to get away with it, passing by it in silence, shows what is happening to civil culture in our region — a very worrying trend.
Sad.
But that is not all, he has then set out to hijack the thread into a discussion in which he is trying to assert — yet again and in the teeth of longstanding correction — the antecedence of Egyptian paganism over the Judaeo-Christian tradition.
So, i tis time to remind those who come in larte, or may have forgotten what has been going on since Christmas Eve when ROK intervened; in a Grinch-like spirit.
If you were to only look at the just above, you would never have known that ROK started out by trying to dismiss the historicity of Jesus. Duly, corrected by the undersigned, December 24, 2009 at 4:57 AM. In that corrective, I not only pointed out the cluster of record from non-Christian sources that corroborated his existence and outlines of the history we can identify from the gospels; but also cited noted NT expert prof Craig Evans in his 2004 U Calgary Benthal public lecture on the historicity and roots of Jesus:
My purpose tonight is to lay before you what I believe are key facets in the scholarly discussion of the historical Jesus. In my view there are five important areas of investigation and in all five there has been significant progress in recent years. I shall frame these areas as questions. They include (1) the question of the ethnic, religious, and social location of Jesus; (2) the question of the aims and mission of Jesus; (3) the question of Jesusโ self-understanding; (4) the question of Jesusโ death; and (5) the question of Jesusโ resurrection. All of these questions directly bear on the relevance of Jesus for Christian faith and some of them have important implications for Jewish- Christian relations . . . .
The story told in the New Testament Gospelsโin contrast to the greatly embellished versions found in the Gospel of Peter and other writingsโ smacks of verisimilitude. The women went to the tomb to mourn privately and to perform duties fully in step with Jewish burial customs. They expected to find the body of Jesus; ideas of resurrection were the last thing on their minds. The careful attention given the temporary tomb is exactly what we should expect. Pious fictionโlike that seen in the Gospel of Peterโ would emphasize other things. Archaeology can neither prove nor disprove the resurrection, but it can and has shed important light on the circumstances surrounding Jesusโ death, burial, and missing corpse . . . .
Research in the historical Jesus has taken several positive steps in recent years. Archaeology, remarkable literary discoveries, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and progress in reassessing the social, economic, and political setting of first-century Palestine have been major factors. Notwithstanding the eccentricities and skepticism of the Jesus Seminar, the persistent trend in recent years is to see the Gospels as essentially reliable, especially when properly understood, and to view the historical Jesus in terms much closer to Christianityโs traditional understanding, i.e., as proclaimer of Godโs rule, as understanding himself as the Lordโs anointed, and, indeed, as Godโs own son, destined to rule Israel. But this does not mean that the historical Jesus that has begun to emerge in recent years is simply a throwback to the traditional portrait. The picture of Jesus that has emerged is more finely nuanced, more obviously Jewish, and in some ways more unpredictable than ever. The last word on the subject has not been written and probably never will be. Ongoing discovery and further investigation will likely force us to make further revisions as we read and read again the old Gospel stories and try to come to grips with the life of this remarkable Galilean Jew.
Later, when ROK first raised the notions of [Egyptian] pagan copycat-ism as the roots of the Judaeo-Christian tradition, he was corrected as long ago as December 28, 2009 at 4:19 PM and he was specifically directed therein to a rebuttal of the specific Egyptian roots claim by JPH of Tektonics, and an extensive online [book-length] corrective to the full range of this now discredited history of religions school idea, by Miller. In particular his attention was drawn to the discussion by Don Howell explains in BibSac, V150, #599, Jul 93, p310:
At the turn of the 20th century a new approach to Paul was forged by the religionsgeschichtliche Schule, โthe History of Religions School.โ Spawned in Germany, this approach built on the Tรผbingen dichotomy between Palestinian and Hellenistic Christianity, and found the origins of the more developed Pauline Christology in the mystery religions and pagan cults of the Greek world. The mystery religions of Greece (Eleusian), Egypt (Isis and Osiris), Syria (Adonis), Asia Minor (Cybele), and Rome (Mithras) were researched and mined for parallels with Pauline theology. A dying-rising redeemer god, the exalted kurios, sacramental redemption, initiation into mystic participation in the deity, gnosis, and pneumatic experience were mystery-religion concepts claimed to have conditioned Paulโs thinking.
โTwo pioneers in this field were Bousset and Reitzenstein. Bousset argued that the Jesus of the primitive Palestinian church was the eschatological Son of Man, largely derived from Daniel 7:13โ14. But in the Greek-speaking Christian communities like Antioch, Jesus was transformed, under the influence of the Hellenistic mystery cults, into the acclaimed kurios. โBehind the personal piety of Paul and his theology there stands as a real power and a living reality the cultic veneration of the kurios in the community.โ With consummate skill Bousset explored the Hermetic literature, Philo, Gnostic documents, and the cults of Isis, Osiris, and Orphis and discovered โparallelsโ with Paulโs Christ-mysticism (โin Christโ), doctrine of the Holy Spirit, Christ-Adam theology, cross and sacrament, and the dying-rising Redeemer. Reitzenstein, a philologist and authority on Eastern Gnosticism, researched the second-and third-century Hermetic literature and concluded that Gnostic terminology was the source of Paulโs Christology. Neill, in an extended survey of the History of Religions approach, credits the Harvard scholar Kirsopp Lake with popularizing in America the arguments of German scholars such as Bousset and Reitzenstein .
โThe influence of the various religionsgeschichtliche models has greatly diminished in recent decades with the discovery of the Qumran scrolls and wider research in the Jewish materials of the intertestamental (Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha) and New Testament (rabbinical traditions) periods. It is no longer feasible to separate Hellenistic and Jewish influences into two hermetically sealed compartments. Paulโs Jewishness is in the process of being rediscovered. But a more fundamental issue is the entire logic of the comparative religionist methodology which presupposes the apostle to have been an inclusivistic, impressionable absorber of alien ideas rather than the proclaimer of a pure gospel of faith and repentance.
[ . . . ]
Onlookers, ROK simply dismissed or ignored these excerpted serious observations by world class scholars, on the state of real scholarship on the matters he claimed.
But in fact, the just (again!) summarised progress of scholarship over the past six decades plainly which casts the whole pagan copycat assertions based on claimed “parallels” methodology into question.
Instead, ROK doubled down on his assertions.
For instance, December 28, 2009 at 6:07 PM, we read:
So what is the point of the Isis, Osiris story? It is on the walls of the pyramids, so let the author go and scrape them off. All this intellectual dishonesty in the face of solid evidence that the bible is a plagiarism of the Egyptian religion.
In short, he is plainly still holding the view of the NT being a copycat on the Frazer type dying-rising redeemer-god pagan mythology. And, he dismisses the progress of world class scholarship over 60+ years as “dishonest.”
That alone suffices to remove ROK from the circle of honest, civil discussion and places him in the category of the scoffing mockers predicted by Peter on the eve of his martyrdom for his staunch witness to the truths he had personally experienced: that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again triumphant as Lord.
Somehow, it has not dawned on ROK that so staunchly monotheistic a person as Paul — remember, he was originally persecuting Christians to death on the charge of blasphemy regarding the gospel claims on Jesus as messiah, and later as an Apostle [having met the risen Christ himself!], he intervened to stop an attempt to worship him, when a pagan crowd confused Barnabas and himself for the visiting gods Hermes and Zeus [Ac 14], which nearly cost his life as he was then stoned.
Then, as Ac 17 reports, he was paroxysmed with distress when he saw the many idols in Athens, capital of Greek learning — simply would not be borrowing core ideas from the pagans!
No, as was discussed above December 30, 2009 at 6:22 AM and January 1, 2010 at 3:42 AM on (not forgetting December 31, 2009 at 7:59 AM on on the warranting grounds of the Judaeo-Christian faith founded on historic facts now reported in scripture servinghere as primary source historical documents abundantly and subtly corroborated by archaeological investigations — which ROK tried to dismiss as well . . . ), the gospel based on Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection — the roots of NT faith — was and is anchored in the on- the ground- fact of Jesus’ death by crucifixion [most likely, as I had to show, on a t -shaped cross . . . whhc is not copy-catted form the ankh, but was a form of the Roman gibbet that allowed the posting of the alleged crime just above the head of the utterly agonised, slowly dying victim . . . ], his burial and resurrection with 500+ on-the-ground witnesses, all according to the prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures, most spectacularly Is 53. In short, whether or no such myths of dying and rising gods — drawing on the seasonal cycle of winter death and spring rebirth exist, the point is as C S Lewis long ago put it: in Christ, Myth became FACT, on the ground, at a specific place and time, with a specific tomb in walking distance of where the kangaroo courts sat under three sets of judges and where they “nailed him to a tree.” A tomb that, three days after he was buried, was ever so eloquently empty.
And, it is FACT we must address, now a matter of the historical record made by brave men who knowingly — and peacefully — paid with their lives for standing by their witness of truth in the face of a hostile and scorning establishment that viewed them as subversives.
Worse, the imagined parallels are in large measure based on over-reading the pagan reports in light of our knowledge of the gospels. E.g. :
D’s handy summary on Osiris et al: Osiris was killed, dismembered and scattered over Egypt, and was re-assembled by his wife [and sister — the Pharaohs often married their sisters . . . ], the goddess Isis; who had to substitute an artificial phallus, by which she conceived Horus post-humously through magic. (Notice, as the just linked shows, this same ritual, when used on Egypt’s dead, gave them an after life in Osiris’ underworld kingdom:
After Osiris was killed, Isis resurrected him with the Ritual of Life, which was later given to the Egyptians so that they could give eternal life to all their dead. The spells and rituals cast by Isis, plus many others given to the people by the gods over the centuries, were collected into The Book of Going Forth by Day, colloquially known as The Book of the Dead.
In the underworld, Osiris sits on a great throne, where he is praised by the souls of the just. All those who pass the tests of the underworld become worthy to enter The Blessed Land, that part of the underworld that is like the land of the living, but without sorrow or pain. In some texts, in addition to the Judging of the Heart, Osiris passes final judgment over the dead, acting in this capacity as an Egyptian version of Radamanthus.
There is an interesting parallel between Osiris, a fertility/agriculture god, and the Greek Persephone, an agriculture goddess. Both end up in the underworld through treachery and both are kept there by “legal loopholes” in the laws of the gods. Persephone remains in the underworld for half a year because she tasted the food of the dead. Osiris remains in the underworld because Ma’at dictates that the dead, even dead gods, may not return to the land of the living.
Osiris, by Maat’s degcree, relegated to rule as the mummified — hence the green colour that Osiris so often has in the tomb imagery — god in the underworld; Horus being the son who avenged his father by attacking Set.
This is utterly different from the prophetic, hebraic context and Monotheistic worldview message of the gospel. And, Jesus’ resurrection did in fact place him in the land of the living to the point where he was hugged by women, he walked miles with men on the road to Emmaus, ate a fish supper with his disciples, and even later made breakfast for them on the shores of the sea of Galilee. Jesus’ resurrection body is transformed, but it is fully capable of operating in this world!
he is no mummified green-coloured pagan god of the underworld.
In short, the parallels ROK so confidently claims are plainly far over-drawn and read into the pagan story, by those who wish to skeptically dismiss the message of eh Nt anchred ont eh facts seen and attested by 500+ people brave enough to pay with their lives for that witness!
(Cf my onward remarks, from December 28, 2009 at 7:47 PM on, including the excerpted JPH discussion of both Osiris and Horus at 7:57 pm. Note too the way that the one true and living God judged the demons standing behind the empty idols of the Egyptian gods in the ten plagues of liberation for the Israelite slaves, as cited December 29, 2009 at 9:25 AM.)
Later, ROK failed to address the question of the utter contrast between the Judaeo-Christian Creation-anchored, Monotheistic worldview and Egyptian polytheistic paganism; indeed, he did not seem to understand that paganism is a basic dictionary term for a religion that worships many gods. (He seemed to think it was specific to European forms of polytheism; probably reflecting dependence on ill-informed and unreliable Afrocentric sources.)
I invite you to examine the discussion on the worldviews issue from December 29, 2009 at 6:39 PM on [noting that there was an inadvertent cut-off of an excerpt, supplied December 30, 2009 at 5:42 AM].
In short, sadly — and ROK, wake up before it is too late — we are seeing a precise case of fulfillment of the prophesied scoffery of 2 Peter 3:
2 Pet 3:3 Above all, understand this:8 In the last days blatant scoffers9 will come, being propelled by their own evil urges10 3:4 and saying,11 โWhere is his promised return?12 For ever since13 our ancestors14 died,15 all things have continued as they were16 from the beginning of creation.โ 3:5 For they deliberately suppress this fact,17 that by the word of God18 heavens existed long ago and an earth19 was formed out of water and by means of water. 3:6 Through these things20 the world existing at that time was destroyed when it was deluged with water. 3:7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, by being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
So, let us take note and heed the apostle’s prophetic warning.
G’day
D
PS: Folks, THIS is the story that ROK would have us understand thusly:
So what is the point of the Isis, Osiris story? It is on the walls of the pyramids, so let the author go and scrape them off. All this intellectual dishonesty in the face of solid evidence that the bible is a plagiarism of the Egyptian religion.
Namely:
______________
>>O my brothers and my sisters, gather around me that I may tell the tale of the Before-Time, of the Golden Age when the gods walked upon the earth with us.
–> note the legendary setting not the historic times of Augustus Caesar and his successor Tiberius; nor the specific geography of Judaea, Jerusalem and the Galilee etc..
Know then that in those ancient days, long before even the grandfather of our Pharaoh’s grandfather was born, Osiris the great-grandson of Ra sat upon the throne of the gods, ruling over the living world as Ra did over the gods. He was the first Pharaoh, and his Queen, Isis, was the first Queen. They ruled for many ages together, for the world was still young and Grandmother Death was not as harsh as she is now.
His ways were just and upright, he made sure that Maat remained in balance, that the law was kept. And so Maat smiled upon the world. All peoples praised Osiris and Isis, and peace reigned over all, for this was the Golden Age.
Yet there was trouble. Proud Set, noble Set, the brother of Osiris, he who defended the Sun Boat from Apep the Destroyer, was unsettled in his heart. He coveted the throne of Osiris. He coveted Isis. He coveted the power over the living world and he desired to take it from his brother. In his dark mind he conceived of a plot to kill Osiris and take all from him. He built a box and inscribed it with wicked magic that would chain anyone who entered it from escaping.
–> magic is anathematised in the Bible, and the only occultic magicians in the NT — in Ac — are both cursed and judged by God. That is, Simon Magus (later, founder of Gnosticism) and Elymas.
–> And Jannes and Jambres were plainly bested by YHWH acting through his prophets in the plagues of Egypt that judged their demonic consorts.
Set took the box to the great feast of the gods. He waited until Osiris had made himself drunk on much beer, then challenged Osiris to a contest of strength. Each one in turn would enter the box, and attempt, through sheer strength, to break it open. Osiris, sure in his power yet feeble in mind because of his drink, entered the box. Set quickly poured molten lead into the box. Osiris tried to escape, but the wicked magic held him bound and he died.
–> Jesus, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was crucified, an innocent man who refused befuddling Mhyrred wine . . . not a drunkard befuddled into a contest of magic.
Set then picked up the box and hurled it into the Nile where it floated away.
–> A lead filled coffin floating? [I.e. magic . .. ]
Set claimed the throne of Osiris for himself and demanded that Isis be his Queen. None of the other gods dared to stand against him, for he had killed Osiris and could easily do the same to them. Great Ra turned his head aside and mourned, he did not stand against Set.
This was the dark time. Set was everything his brother was not. He was cruel and unkind, caring not for the balance of Maat, or for us, the children of the gods.
–> We are the children of the ONLY Living God and Father!
War divided Egypt, and all was lawless while Set ruled. In vain our people cried to Ra, but his heart was hardened by grief, and he would not listen.
–> Our loving Heavenly Father listens to us.
Only Isis, blessed Isis, remembered us. Only she was unafraid of Set. She searched all of the Nile for the box containing her beloved husband. Finally she found it, lodged in a tamarisk bush that had turned into a mighty tree, for the power of Osiris still was in him, though he lay dead.
–> Jesus was buried in a specific tomb prepared by Joseph of Arimathea for his own burial, and just north of the city gates of Jerusalem.
–. on the followinfg sunday mornintg, women went, not to search, but to anoint the body with spices.
–> but as they arrived the tomb was already opened, and the one formerly within had long since risen!
She tore open the box and wept over the lifeless body of Osiris.
–> So utterly different from mary Magdalene weeping that he officials had taken away her dead prophet’s body, asking the one she thought was the gardener where the body had been taken; only to hear in that voice she knew so well: Mary!
She carried the box back to Egypt and placed it in the house of the gods. She changed herself into a bird and flew about his body, singing a song of mourning. Then she perched upon him and cast a spell.
–> magic again . . .
The spirit of dead Osiris entered her and she did conceive and bear a son whose destiny it would be to avenge his father.
–> This is no resurrection!
She called the child Horus, and hid him on an island far away from the gaze of his uncle Set.
She then went to Thoth, wise Thoth, who knows all secrets, and implored his help. She asked him for magic that could bring Osiris back to life. Thoth, lord of knowledge, who brought himself into being by speaking his name, searched through his magic. He knew that Osiris’ spirit had departed his body and was lost. To restore Osiris, Thoth had to remake him so that his spirit would recognize him and rejoin. Thoth and Isis together created the Ritual of Life, that which allows us to live forever when we die.
–> notice that this is all magic, and about a restoration to the underworld . ..
But before Thoth could work the magic, cruel Set discovered them. He stole the body of Osiris and tore it into many pieces, scattering them throughout Egypt. He was sure that Osiris would never be reborn.
–> the scattered body
Yet Isis would not despair. She implored the help of her sister Nephthys, kind Nephthys, to guide her and help her find the pieces of Osiris. Long did they search, bringing each piece to Thoth that he might work magic upon it.
–> Occult magic again . . . notice how central this is to the Egyptian worldview.
When all the pieces were together, Thoth went to Anubis, lord of the dead. Anubis sewed the pieces back together, washed the entrails of Osiris, embalmed him wrapped him in linen, and cast the Ritual of Life. When Osiris’ mouth was opened, his spirit reentered him and he lived again.
–> notice the magic here again . . .
Yet nothing that has died, not even a god, may dwell in the land of the living. Osiris went to Duat, the abode of the dead. Anubis yielded the throne to him and he became the lord of the dead.
–> Contrast the risen Jesus meeting, discussing, eating with his disciples, and even making breakfast for them
–> not to mention, years later in ascended glory, personally arresting Saul on the road to Damascus.
There he stands in judgment over the souls of the dead. He commends the just to the Blessed Land, but the wicked he condemns to be devoured by Ammit.
When Set heard that Osiris lived again he was wroth, but his anger waned, for he knew that Osiris could never return to the land of the living.
–> Note, this is an utterly different concept than the NT
Without Osiris, Set believed he would sit on the throne of the gods for all time. Yet on his island, Horus, the son of Osiris and Isis, grew to manhood and strength. Set sent many serpents and demons to kill Horus, but he defeated them. When he was ready, his mother Isis gave him great magic to use against Set, and Thoth gave him a magic knife.
–> Magic, again . . .
–> notice, onlookers, how the legend inculcates occultic trafficking with demons into the victims of this deception.
–> Do you want for further proof on just who is the ultimate author of this legend?
Horus sought out Set and challenged him for the throne. Set and Horus fought for many days, but in the end Horus defeated Set and castrated him. But Horus, merciful Horus, would not kill Set, for to spill the blood of his uncle would make him no better than he. Set maintained his claim to the throne, and Horus lay claim himself as the son of Osiris. The gods began to fight amongst another, those who supported Horus and those who supported Set. Banebdjetet leaped into the middle and demanded that the gods end this struggle peacefully or Maat would be imbalanced further. He told the gods to seek the council of Neith. Neith, warlike though wise in council, told them that Horus was the rightful heir to the throne. Horus cast Set into the darkness where he lives to this day.
And so it is that Horus watches over us while we live, and gives guidance to the Pharaoh while he lives, and his father Osiris watches over us in the next life.
–> Notice the utter contrast to the Gospels, Acts and Epistles!
–> this is an utterly alien worldview tot he Hebraic tradition, and only intersects with it at points where there is a clash of powers, with the demons being duly routed!
So it is that the gods are at peace. So it is that Set, wicked Set, eternally strives for revenge, battling Horus at every turn. When Horus wins, Maat is upheld and the world is at peace. When Set wins, the world is in turmoil.
–> Satan has no power to win against God, and was decisively beaten at Calvary: “IT IS FINISHED!”
But we know that dark times do not last forever, and the bright rays of Horus will shine over us again. In the last days, Horus and Set will fight one last time for the world. Horus will defeat Set forever, and Osiris will be able to return to this world.
–> here we see an very different eschatology . . .
On that day, the Day of Awakening, all the tombs shall open and the just dead shall live again as we do, and all sorrow shall pass away forever.
–> There is hope for resurrection, but not he evidence of the one who is “Firstfruits of them who sleep”!
Lo, this is my tale. Keep it in your hearts and give it to others, as I gave it to you. >>
________________
And so, when we look at he actual legend of osiris, we see that the scholars are right: the parallels are plainly overblown and insignificant.
And, ROK’s dismissal of that conclusion on the merits as “dishonest” puts him firmly in the camp of the ill-informed scoffers predicted by Peter.
Sad, really.
Surely, he can do better than this, and make amends for his slanderous misbehaviour above.
PPS: Onlookers, it would be interesting to contrast the above legend with the precise, fulfilled to the letter, BC 700+ prophecy in Is 52:13 – 53:12:
Isaiah 52:13-53:12 (New International Version)
The Suffering and Glory of the Servant
13 See, my servant will act wisely [a] ;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him [b]โ
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
and his form marred beyond human likenessโ15 so will he sprinkle many nations, [c]
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Isaiah 531 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.8 By oppression [d] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [e]9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [f] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [g] and be satisfied [h] ;
by his knowledge [i] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [j]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [k]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
let us note the record in the NT, dated to 55 AD [and tracing to Jerusalem, c. 35 AD] , of that fulfillment and its significance — noting that ever since and down to today, MILLIONS (many directly and easily available for interview) have met God in saving power through the cross of the risen Christ:
1 Corinthians 15:1-11 (New International Version)
1 Corinthians 15
The Resurrection of Christ
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of themโyet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
For shame, ROK, for shame!
Perhaps ROK was alluding to GP’s belief that all who do not share his doctrine shall be consigned to a fiery place –
whether it be Hell or Dachau.
ST:
Kindly, stop spinning the truth and twisting it into pretzels.
D
PS: You need to look and cogently respond to the remarks and discussion here before playing the Hitler card against God himself. Otherwise, you are simply indulging in more ignorant and slanderous scoffery. (And, note, GP specifically stated that he accepts and approves what is in the linked, i.e. he described it as accurate to sound exposition as he learned it.)
ROK
Correct me if I am wrong but I would like to point out a certain irony in your position.
Everything you are quoting as fact about ancient Egypt that is based on what is written on the walls of pyramids in hieroglyphics has been translated into English based on decyphering done by European scholars (French and English) not quite 200 years ago.
Now, I don’t know if any of them were blond haired or blue eyed, but some may hav been!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone
PS: If you check you will realise that Horatio Nelson, Baron of the Nile, was the instigator of its discovery by the French.
Onlookers:
The just linked is an examination of the implications of Rom 2:5 – 9 for the sort of “God is an unjust judge” objection that we find from ever so many Village Skeptics (including the ilk of the so-called new Atheists).
Excerpting:
____________
>>The Christian gospel is pretty direct, even blunt, on the uniqueness of Jesus the crucified, risen Lord and Saviour:
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me . . . ”
Acts 4:9 If we [the apostles Peter and John, before the Sanhedrin ruling council in Jerusalem, c. AD 30 – 33] are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is” ‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.[a]'[b]12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
In a pluralistic, radically relativistic postmodern age such as ours, this easily comes across as narrow-minded, closed-minded, intolerant, bigoted and hateful; sharply polarising hearts and minds against the Christian gospel, church and Christians.
Indeed, in the rhetoric of anti-gospel, anti-Christian indoctrination, this objection is now a common, and often effective — though highly misleading — tactic.
At first level, the real issue is not narrow-mindedness, but truth. For, saying “2 + 3 = 5” is not a matter of being “narrow” or “bigoted,” but of being accurate.
(And before rushing off and dismissing the gospel without further considerations as “obviously” inaccurate to history, one should consult the implications of the AD 55 eyewitness lifetime primary source record here (and the associated life-transforming experience of the millions across 2,000 years who have encountered God in the face of the crucified and risen Christ through the gospel; including many thousands of your neighbours all across the Caribbean), as well as discussions by men like professor Yamauchi [other links are at the previously linked page] here and professor Evans here. The 2006 Craig – Ehrman debate (transcript here) between two men at the top of their game, should give a balanced view. This debate (mp3) between professors Craig and Ludemann is also illuminating. [The DVD of the follow-up debate is here.])
But, too, we must also recognise the force of Aristotle’s warning in Bk I, Ch 2 of his The Rhetoric:
persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . .
How, then, can we respond, being faithful to the core truths of the gospel message but also able to effectively and winsomely communicate the core message of God’s love and rescue of lost humanity — a message that is so eloquently portrayed in John 3:14 – 17?
Namely:
Jn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[a]
16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[b] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him . . .
Having recently (Dec. 2009) had to address a case in point in the Blog Barbados Underground, I offer the below (a slightly updated version of a blog comment) as a suggestion:
____________________
RE [objections raised in the thread]: (a) โAm I the only one that thinks God must have a real cruel and sadistic streak for creating a system that says if you donโt believe the right way, you are going to burn alive in hell for eternityโ and (b) โWhy should a GOD want me to be forever damned with Lucifer simply because I refused to believe.โ
RESPONSE:
Whenever we start pushing God into the dock, that is a point where our reasoning has gone off the rails!
And, that is what is happening here, for there is a lot more to the story than the sort of unfortunately strawmanised, demonising and deeply polarised remarks just excerpted suggest.
Perhaps we need to read Paul in Rom 1 โ 2 a bit more carefully (and this, on all sides):
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes โ his eternal power and divine nature โ have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened . . . .
2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourselves in the day of wrath, when Godโs righteous judgment is revealed!
2:6 He will reward each one according to his works: 2:7 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality, 2:8 but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness . . . .
2:14 For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, these who do not have the law are a law to themselves. 2:15 They show that the work of the law [i.e core morality, expressed in the principles of neighbour love] is written in their hearts, as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend them, 2:16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of human hearts, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus. [NET Bible.]
a โ> Paul is pretty explicit that our big problem is resenting and rebelling against the truth we do or should know then substituting what we do or should know is a lie, and that God frowns on this.
b โ> So the issue, first, cannot be that one is merely IGNORANT of relevant truth. (Especially, as it is innate. E.g. “You unfair me!” we protest, testifying to the acknowledged binding nature of moral truth; which raises the sobering question that since we are under moral government, we are under a Moral Governor. [For there is no other adequate ground for such moral government.])
c โ> Instead, the real issue is that of rebelling against the truth we know and where it points, e.g. the fact of conscious mindedness points to the Source of mind. (And likewise the orderly organised complex information-rich balance of the world and of life in it point to the author thereof.)
d โ> Likewise, our consciences crying out for justice โ including when we would put God in the Dock and cry out against real or apparent evils โ testify to the fact that we find ourselves morally obligated. This can only be grounded in a cosmos in which the ultimate reality is a Morally Just Creator so that good is reasonable and morally compelling as reasonable and fair, not arbitrary. Otherwise the is-ought gap swallows up the ought in the is. (Cf. here on the Euthryphro false dilemma.)
e โ> But things get hotter. For in Rom Ch 2 Paul addresses the man who genuinely does not know enough to know Jesus and the gospel (and/or, by extension who sincerely misunderstands it), contrasting him to the one who rejects truth he knows or should know and lives by evil in darkness:
Rom 2:6 He [God] will reward each one according to his works: 2:7 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality, 2:8 but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness
f โ> Here, we first see the ordinary man who by light of conscience โ and inevitably stumblingly so โ penitently perseveres in the path of good and truth, based on what he knows of good and God, by dint of nature, prophets, wise teachers, philosophers, scripture or even the manifest presence and power of the gospel. (The attitude is instantly recognisable, and so is its opposite.)
g โ> The scripture we are discussing is explicit and plain that to such God gives eternal life:
Rom 2:6 He [God] will reward each one according to his works: 2:7 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality . . .
h โ> Very simple, but so very easy to lose sight of: God is fair and loving, so he will save anyone he can. So, it is unsurprising that the Biblical teaching is that if you walk in the truth, the light and the right you know or should โ important caveat! โ know, penitently and persistently getting up when you err or stumble, God [our loving Father] will receive you with open arms.
(And, BTW, one of God’s yardsticks of judgement is the standard we use when we judge other people; especially if we then turn around and fail to live up to such expectations. [Hence the vital importance of penitence and persistence in the way of the right when we find ourselves — inevitably — stumbling like that!])
i โ> Such salvation is based on his lovingly and freely offered self-sacrifice by which he took the fatal venom of our self-destroying sin into his own self and expiated its consequences and penalty; so that we may have “life for a look.” (NB: The exchange is explicit in many cases, implicit in others [e.g Abraham, Melchizedek, Job, Moshe, David . . . many others down to today who may not have a clear access to a higher — much less, the highest — degree of truth or light ], but it is the basis for salvation and eternal life.)
j โ> But, not all turn to the good and walk in the path of the right and the truth, however stumblingly.
k –> Some โ sadly โ rebel even against the undeniable voice of mind and conscience.
l –> Others are willing to follow any rhetoric that excuses them in sin and in untruth; some even going so far as to actively suppress the truth they know or should know — up to and including the case of those who have heard the gospel and have effective access to the compelling evidence of its truth.
[NB: This includes the knowledge of the fact that millions all around us and over the years report that they have met and come to know the real God in the face of Jesus and have had their lives transformed by the resulting release of resurrection power through the “great and precious promises” of the scriptures. (Advice: a little humble listening to people who — however ill-educated and lacking in eloquence — actually know God, would save many of us the highly educated a lot of grief here and in eternity.)]
m โ> For good reason, then, rebels against the truth and the right they know or should know face a very different fate.
n โ> And, it is such who need to heed the stern warnings Paul also gives:
Rom 2:8 but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness . . .
__________
So, commentators and onlookers:
1: what is the truth and the right that you know or should know?
2: Are you seeking to turn to it and live by it, however much you stumble and must regret it and get up and try again?
3: Or, are you resisting the truth and following evil, in rage against what you know you should do?
That is the issue we must all face.
_________________
I trust that this will prove helpful in seeing the importance of living by the light of truth and right that one knows or should know (because one has reasonable access to it), and why it is the rejection and rebellion against the truth and right one knows or should know that is the real issue, not the alleged narrow-mindedness of truth.
For, 2 + 3 = 5 is not a matter of narrow-mindedness or bigotry, but of accuracy. >>
_____________
What a contrast between the actual teachings of the gospel and he distorted slander-laced strawmen that Village Skeptics set up to knock over, trying to justify themselves in turning from the truth they know or should know!
For shame, ST!
D
David, a response is on the mod pile.
Okay for now,
D.
@Dictionary
You like you gone beserk too. I thought John was crying rivers of tears but you crying lakes and rivers too.
I keep telling you fellows that if you can’t take it leave it because the only thing I will do is further expose the myth of christianity. Why don’t you give up while the going is not so rough?
Onlookers:
ROK now resorts to personal insults, instead of squarely facing the wreckage of his claims on the merits [capped off by the comparison of the actual story of Osiris and the real-world prophecy and fulfillment in the Bible], and dealing with his need to make amends for utter incivility.
He needs to soberly re-read 2 Peter 3.
G’day
D
PS: Thanks David.
@Dictionary
“>>O my brothers and my sisters, gather around me that I may tell the tale of the Before-Time, of the Golden Age when the gods walked upon the earth with us.”
The next thing I will hit you with is that the gods left this earth before Abraham or Adam or Eve story in the bible. All during the times of what you would like to call the historical accounts of the bible, the gods had long gone.
Those calling themselves Hebrews were adopting religion from all the regions. Stories that existed before the bible, became part of the bible. How could that be?
It would seem that characters like Abraham, left their homes and travelled to distant places, taking much of the religion of their land and established a new settlement with religion intact. They had the religious experience and merely localised the stories.
It would seem also that as more and more people joined the settlement, they too came with their religious pieces and as leaders changed and passed away, the oral religion was modified to take in the new stories.
By the time they got around to the “holy graille”, it was already a melting pot. From all indications, the Torah represents a departure from what would have been the orthodox text and this created a secret society which sought to purify or purge the religion.
Its attempts to be known as the old testament could only be described as an act of deception, but the truth won out and the oral torah was exposed. That is however, another matter.
It is out of this dilemma that what became known as christianity was born.
This so funny it is even tragic!!
Dictionary et al, are always calling others worse things on this blog ( Satan’s son, ignorant, lost, blind etc).
ROK (in his opinion) compares D’s mentality to Hitler. D asks for an apology, even asking David to censure ROK.
What is this?
This is what I just cant deal with from people who thinks so highly of themselves. Everyone here have their own opinions and beliefs and are trying to put theirs on the table.
The Evangelicals believe theirs is the right, others that theirs is right, what do you expect?
@Dictionary
I told you that I will not be resorting to the bible to prove itself. It is time to take a historical view of the period and try to uncover as much detail as possible in order to put this thing in perspective.
The complaining you doing about incivility is mere emotional appeal. I want you to deal with the fact that from the accounts of your bible, the earth did not exist at 10,000 BCE. We know that as a lie.
We know also that mankind was on earth for at least 200,000 years but the said bible does not account for any of this period… and yet comes along and claims creation.
This void of information of life prior to 5000 BCE has served to imprison our minds from that date to present. How many people in this society even contemplate life beyond biblical times.
A good example of this kind of behaviour is the rise of the Europeans. They related their experience to the whole world, so when they spoke of the stone age, Africa had stone through their stone age at least 5000 years earlier. When they thought that the earth was flat, Africans knew that the earth was round.
The Hebrews and Israelites after them did the same thing. While I will not deny that the bible may represent a historical account of the lives of the Hebrews, Israelites and Jews, within the historical context of mankind, one can only conclude that it is a mix of history and mythology because man existed at least hundreds of thousands of years before the bible.
@Dictionary
Let me put it simpler. The period of the bible, represents less that 1% of the life of mankind on this earth. What is the likelihood that the earth and all its contents could have been created according to the timeline of the bible?
ROK
Have you ever considered the possibility that when the French and English (Europeans) were translating any of the hieroglyphics on the walls on which you may rely that they were almost certainly well versed in the Bible …..
…. and logically the Bible stories may have influenced their translation and give rise to the similarities you imagine!!
…… in short, you might be labouring under the misconceptions of European scholars and the influence the Bible had on them.
Plainly, you have not understood the basic definition of paganism: idolatrous worship of many gods. (And the common g is important!)
*************************************
So, what about the Greeks. How can the images of early Christians be Europoid when it was still long after Jesus had died that Constantine had his epiphany and began Christianizing Europe.
Professor John Hendrick Clarke in an interview prior to his death expounded, “the only Europeans in that part of the world when Christ was born were Romans and Greeks, and he was neither Roman or Greek.
The fervor with which fanatics ignore falsities in the imaging in Christinianity while advance the literal versions of the same people responsible for those fasle images is amazing. In other words, they are screaming that the people who lie about one thing is speaking the truth when comes to another thing.
I like the idea of the Beatitudes as a foundation for my spiritual belief system, without obsoloscencing the connection between ancient Egyptian spiritual beliefs and those of Christianity and Judaism. What turns me off, in fact repulses me, are the utterly vainglorious who publicly beat on their chest while proselytizing. I see these people as residents of the synagogue of Satan, the ones we are warned about in revelations.
What is more paganistic than the style of Worship in the Catholic and Anglican Churches. The worship of graven images and likenesses. The capacity of these people to wax hubristically about Christianity, to point indignant and accusatory fingers at those who question the information based on the source of its origination, while casting a “Nelson Eye” at the institutional anomalies pervasive in the Christian establishmentarian system, speaks volumes about what degree of integrity they are bringing to the fray.
@John
Yes John, but your logic eludes me again. They did precede the bible, did they not? what you may be considering as cross fertilisation may really be repatriation. Why not consider that? Did the cap fit?
@Ruel Daniels
Nice contribution.
Osiris, the Mythical *false* god of the Egyptians, one of the most FABRICATED, demonic *deceptions* that certainly helped to bring these ancient people down, as Almighty God, the One and Only True God, visited His judgment on Egypt.
The inscriptions clearly evident in Egypt, IS a testimony to this RANK, DEMONIC, pagan culture of so many *FALSE* gods; NOT to be found in Israel’s religious culture, BUT, in fact strickly FORBIDDEN, from their inception, by the Creator, Jahweh, NOT to have ANY of God before Me!
The ONLY ancient religion, that started OUT from their very beginning, AFTER they were delivered from Egypt, the *Israelites* that DID NOT, and were FORBIDDEN to in any way, get involed in this RAMPANT *IDOLATRY* worship of FALSE, demonic gods and goddesses, as WAS so prevalent in EGPYT, was Judaism.
Because, our Almighty Creator, Jahweh, was setting the record straight, with ALL mankind, as to WHO *IS* and always be, the ONE and only true God. This He began to do by calling Abraham unto Himself, to ultimately REVEAL who IS the Only True God, NOT the Satanic deceptions fostered upon these other ancient civilizations, by none other, that the Arch-deceiver himself, of all LIES, SATAN, who took ALL of these ancient empires, into absolute RUINATION, one by one, these ARE the Historic facts.
The ONLY ancient people, who ARE still a distinct Nation TODAY, having gone through much despersion over THOUSANDS of years, no doubt, through their very own rebellion against the ONE that promised to make them a great nation, AND through HIS unconditional Covenant with Abraham, IS now fulfilling His promise, though terrible things are still up ahead for Israel, who as a Nation, have still not accepted JESUS CHRIST as Messiah, ALL being fulfilled *exactly* as prophesied in the Old Testament; and coming to PAST in this generation, *exactly* as summarized by the Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 24.
These *FACTS* cannot be refuted, they can be denied by the likes of one ROK, who IS yet another LIAR and rabid DISTORTER of historic and Bibical FACTS, utterly unable to ANSWER any of the salient FACTS as presented by Dictionary, he cannot DEAL with the truth, so he continues to LIE…and LIE….and LIE….as his JOB IS to DO….as he represents the *FATHER* of all LIES!
Masquerading UNDER the banner of some NGO, whose hidden agenda, no doubt to others overseas, IS to covetly pretend to be aiding the poor and underprivileged, with a subtle agenda to *undermin* the historic Judeo/Christian principles and values that have stood us well throughtout our time.
ROK, bring it on man…bring it on…you and your ilk will LAY exposed as the Ancient Egyptians and ALL other IDOLATROUS, Pagan socities were exposed in LIGHT of the TRUTH, which YOU cannot put out, as DARKNESS, *HAS* never being able to deal with, far less put of THE LIGHT!
“Plainly, you have not understood the basic definition of paganism: idolatrous worship of many gods. (And the common g is important!)”
Except at the beginning of a sentence, I always write god with a common g too and that is also important.
@Zoe
“The ONLY ancient people, who ARE still a distinct Nation TODAY, having gone through much despersion over THOUSANDS of years”
Boy/girl, why you don’t stop telling lies? There are several ancient people across the earth who are still a distinct nation in this world today.
Zoe says…’Masquerading UNDER the banner of some NGO, whose hidden agenda, no doubt to others overseas, IS to covetly pretend to be aiding the poor and underprivileged, with a subtle agenda to *undermin* the historic Judeo/Christian principles and values that have stood us well throughtout our time.
Now, isn’t this slander?
Will Dictionary advise his friend also,, that an apology is warranted?
Isn’t this a case of personal attacks too?
I can hold my breath for 3 minutes but I wouldnt.
I thought the ‘G’ in NGO was for Governmental……..
@Zoe
“Masquerading UNDER the banner of some NGO, whose hidden agenda, no doubt to others overseas, IS to covetly pretend to be aiding the poor and underprivileged, with a subtle agenda to *undermin* the historic Judeo/Christian principles and values that have stood us well throughtout our time.”
Well! Well! Well! All of that to prove your point? In that case, let me set the record straight.
I do not practice on any religious organisation what you have perpetrated on me in this forum. As a matter of fact, any NGO leader will tell you that what I have reserved from this forum does not form part of any policy of BANGO.
I respect people and their beliefs. I have come to accept that people will want to identify with a Creator. How they do it is their business. I have to deal with all types of people and my only judgment is that they are all treated equally and that none are favoured because of belief or non-belief.
It is a question of rights-based development as we move closer to achieving good governance.
That is therefore a low blow, intended to discredit. I ask again, is this the character of a christian to commit such acts of assassination?
This is your over-zealousness, Zoe, and it is causing you to do evil, Zoe. It can’t be good, Zoe. Please understand me Zoe:
Given that there is knowledge that man existed for hundreds of thousands of years and that the bible puts it that the world was created virtually yesterday, it would be strange for me that know this to lend any credence to the bible, except to recognise that something happened along the way to cause these stories to be compiled.
The fact that these stories do not take us through the millions of years the world was here is, in itself, good cause for dismissal.
ROK
Given that there is knowledge that man existed for hundreds of thousands of years and that the bible puts it that the world was created virtually yesterday, …
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Please provide the passages on which you base this assertion.
…. second time of asking!!
ROK // January 3, 2010 at 11:03 AM
@John
Yes John, but your logic eludes me again. They did precede the bible, did they not? what you may be considering as cross fertilisation may really be repatriation. Why not consider that? Did the cap fit?
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But ROK, I pointed that out first because it is so patently obvious ….
….. if all mankind came from one source, the fact you can find similarities in creation stories from people in different places at different times should convince you that mankind did come from one source.
I simply gave you another scenario to consider!!!
@John
More evidence of the imagined timeline.
Main article: Young Earth creationism:
Young Earth creationism is the belief that the Earth was created by God within the last ten thousand years, literally as described in Genesis, within the approximate time frame of biblical genealogies (detailed for example in the Ussher chronology). Young Earth creationists often believe that the Universe has a similar age as the Earth. Creationist cosmologies are attempts by some creationist thinkers to give the universe an age consistent with the Ussher chronology and other Young-Earth time frames. Other Young-Earth creationists believe that the Earth and the universe were created with the appearance of age, so that the world appears to be much older than it is, and that this appearance is what gives the geological findings and other methods of dating the earth and the universe their much longer timelines.
According to one recent poll, Young Earth creationist views are held by as many as 44% of adults in the United States. The Christian organizations Institute for Creation Research (ICR) and the Creation Research Society (CRS) both promote Young Earth Creationism in the USA. Another organization with similar views, Answers in Genesis (AIG) Ministries based in both the US and United Kingdom, has opened a Creation Museum to promote Young Earth Creationism. Creation Ministries International promotes Young Earth views in Australia, Canada, South Africa and New Zealand. Among Catholics, the Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation promotes similar ideas.
@Ruel Daniels,
“What is more pananistic than the style of Worship in the Catholic and Anglican Churches. The worship of graven images and the likenesses. The capacity of these people to wax hubristically about Christianity, to point indignant and accusatory fingers at those that question the information based on the source of its origination, while casting a ‘Nelson Eye’ at the institutional anomalies pervasive in the Christian establishmentarian system, speaks volumes about what degree of integrity they are bringing to the fray.”
Sir, your rhetorical eloquence may be good, but, certainly, you knowledge and understanding of the vast difference between ‘Christianty’ the true Church of Jesus Christ, His *Body* and those masquerading under its banner, i.e., Catholocism, Anglicanism, et al, leaves a lot for you to learn, Sir!!
Roman Catholicism NOR Anglicanisn, speak for the TRUE Church of Christ, they ARE both apostate bodies.
Let me make myself abundantly clear, I am speaking here of these two instititions, NOT some of the individuals in them, who may very well have a personal ‘relationship’ with Christ, as Saviour and Lord, in spite of the crass idolatry, images, icons, that are displayed there, which should NOT be there.
Catholicism and Anglicanism, contrary to popular belief ARE NOT synonymous with the *True* Church of Jesus Christ.
As Sir George Sinclair so aptly stated:
“Romanism (Catholicism) IS a refined system of Christianized Heathenism, and chiefly differs from its prototype in being more treacherous, more cruel, more dangerous, more intolerant.” emphasis added.
Without going into the utter *maze* of false doctrine found in Roman Catholicism, paganism christianized; the Anglican church, like the Catholics, START out wrong, re what makes one a Christian, ‘Baby Baptism’ which the famous preacher Charles Haddon Spurgeon correctly spoke to on June 5, 1864, when he preaced a message against infant baptrism from Mark 16: 15-16:
Spurgeon quoted from the Catechism of the Chutch of England, proving that the church teaches that it is through infant baptism the infant IS made a member of Christ, a child of God, and an inheritor of the kingdom of heaven, to this false doctrine, Spurgeon said:
It rest salvation on the wrong footing, ‘…for of all the LIES which have dragged millions down to hell, I look at this as being the most atrocious – that in a Protestant church there should be those who swear that baptism saves the soul.” He urged those who may be resting their salvation on this rite to “shake off this venomous faith into the fire as Paul did the viper which fastened to his hand.”
Sir, you need to get you facts re Church history straight, before you go casting a ‘Nelson Eye’ at those of us here on this thread, WHO DO NOT ascribe in anyway to what you have so wrongly accused of us of!
ROK
So it is not true to say “the bible puts it that the world was created virtually yesterday”.
You are basing your assertion on the timeline on a human interpretation of passages in the Bible, not the actual passages themselves.
I’ll go and see what I can find on the internet on the human interpretation of the Bible timeline!!
Never really studied this “Young Earth creationismin” so I’ll see what I can come up with.
I’ve got the key words you are using so google should give me some data.
…..”Let me make myself abundantly clear, I am speaking here of these two instititions, NOT some of the individuals in them, who may very well have a personal โrelationshipโ with Christ, as Saviour and Lord, in spite of the crass idolatry, images, icons, that are displayed there, which should NOT be there.
Can someone explain this to me ……this is like dry mud to.
How can you be part of the institution that worship crass idolatry (contrary to the “true” church re. Zoe’s) and still have a relationship with God?
Mr. BANGO, while you go about your hidden agenda quietly, you then VENT your POISON here on BU, in full force, deceit, lies, no ANSWER from you whatsoever, re the HISTORIC and BIBLICAL and archaelogical FACTS confirming your DISTORTION of evidence from antiquity!
You ARE a total and complete STRANGER to TRUTH and FACTS.
Where IS the so-called ‘…knowledge that man existed for hundreds of thousands of years…the fact that these stories do not take us through the millions of years that the world was here…”
The materialistic FALLACY of evolutionary naturalism, HAS been credibly debunked, repeadedly, over and over again, as SO ably presented by Dictionary and GP, those LYING evoluntionists, pseudo-scientists, are HATERS of God, the scientitfic EVIDENCE reveals that Earth, IS a relatively young earth, NOT hundreds, or millions of years old, EXACTLY as accounted for in the Genesis narrative of Creation.
The FOSSIL record, AGAIN, confirms this FACT.
Man…you ARE lost in a world of DELUSION, DECEIT, FALSITY and LIES, LIES, and more LIES!!!
Man ROK
I started googling and came across something called Old Earth Creationism.
So I googled that too.
Turns out all sorts of Creationism theories exist and each one like it has a little flaw.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Earth_creationism
Just can’t read all and and make an informed judgment so I’ll revert to Genesis, the source, and see if I can figure it out.
…. but that will have to wait until I finish with my New Years resolution to read and try to understand the verses Handel used in his Messiah.
You see if what I understand from the Bible is right, God made man, got fed up with him when he sinned and disobeyed him and destroyed him, …. except he left Noah and his family.
All of that is in the past.
I am more interested in the future.
Technician,
It is humbling to read Luke 6: 27- 42 and Luke 13:25-27.
@John
My concern here was not a question of one source. That has another meaning as you say, but then to proceed with that you would have to assume that the creation story is false and that the real truth is caught up in the one source.
However, the idea is not necessarily to find a replacement but to understand that the biblical account is not a record of creation. After all, the dinosaurs inhabited this earth for over 200 Million years and up to 65 Million years ago when it is reported that they became extinct, homo sapiens was not yet around.
This information in itself contradicts the bible story. We need to admit that we don’t know and that anybody should be able to hold their beliefs equally without persecution; because we simply do not know and nobody has the truth.
From north to south and from east to west all peoples are clinging on the remnants of ancient oral history and tradition handed down from time immemorial to man. There is no doubt that with the passage of time much was added to the originals until we reach this time when we are unable to discern fact from fiction in any of the ancient tales that form the basis of today’s religions.
As I said, something happened along the way.
@Technician:
“How can you be a part of the institution that worship crass idolatry (contrary to the ‘true’ Church re: Zoe’s) and still have a relationship with God.”
Techi, I know this will confuse you, and I truly appreciate why you would ask this quesion.
I have met a few Anglicans, who express sincerely, their belief IN Jesus as the Only saviour, the Only Mediator, the Only Advocate, between God and man.
God alone knows and understands their genuine ‘ignorance’ re: the Images, etc, and child-like faith they have in His Son, Jesus Christ, while they remain in an institution that essentially MAKES a mockery of His Word, with so much icons, images, etc, etc. Remember, reciting the Apostles Creed, as they do in the Anglican Church, DOES NOT make one a Christian, their litergy is also very Biblical, BUT, that, again, DOES NOT MAKE one a Christian.
Believing in God, intellectually, and even giving mental acquiescence to the HISTORICITY of Jesus Christ, DOES NOT ‘Save’ anyone. The Bible says the demons and Satan also ‘believe’ in God, BUT, their ultimate destiny IS in the Lake for Fire.
Many Catholics and Anglicans over recent decades ARE coming out of these old dead, formalistic, ritualistic church’s, realizing that there IS much more to reciting the Apostles Creed, standing UP and sitting DOWN, with NO real inspired teaching or preaching, having a form of Godliness, BUT, denying the POWER thereof!
I have spent 15 minutes with Anglicans, explaining God’s plan of Salvation from His Word, the Bible, and they say, YES, you are right, BUT, we have NOT been taught IT the way you just explained it in the Anglican Church, a few even said to me, man, ‘…I have learnt more from you in 15 minutes than I heard in the Anglican Church in 25 years!
@ Technician
Can someone explain this to me โฆโฆthis is like dry mud to.
How can you be part of the institution that worship crass idolatry (contrary to the โtrueโ church re. Zoeโs) and still have a relationship with God?
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Excellent observation Tech!
You can’t!
But you can certainly fool yourself and some others who are equally misguided.
…. another brilliant observation was made earlier by
Anonymous // January 1, 2010 at 10:53 AM
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But it is probable that the views of Zoe et al, Crusoe, ROK , Hopi and many others and are all invalid. Crusoe erred in claiming validity for all views. What should have been claimed is the invalidity of all views. That we err is the only truth
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My interpretation –
If we have hundreds of different religions all claiming to be THE correct one
THEN:
the most likely reality is that there are ALL wrong!
What a brilliant starting point!
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