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Mark of the Beast
Mark of the Beast

It is no secret that there is a constituency which dwells in the Barbados Underground who enjoys a robust religious debate. In recent times there has been rich discussion about the Jewish Talmud, The Promises of God and currently The Bible And The Qur’an, Brothers Kept Apart. This group is comprised of Atheists, Agnostics, Christians andย  others, we even noticed the description Apathiest.

Surprisingly to the BU household the religious conversation has attracted a healthy following based on what we see from back here. We hope that we are not twisting any arms but there are some Christian events which require clarification.

  • The BU household wishes to ask our religious luminaries to explain how they perceive revelations linked toย  the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls can potentially reshape religion as we know it.
  • Explain the Mark of the Beast and the much discussed the coming of the Anti-Christ.

Attached is a Power Point Presentation which has been in circulation for sometime which some believe is the Mark of the Beast exposed!


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820 responses to “The Mark Of The Beast, The Coming Of The Anti-Christ,The Dead Sea Scrolls”


  1. Yes, Anony, the Hawks representing Satan are out, the Haters of Almighty God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Eternal Truth, are spewing forth their utter voidness, banter, and filth, to NO AVAIL, whatsoever!

    Light (Jesus Christ) came into this world, and DARKNESS, comprehended it NOT, could NOT understand it, will NEVER understand it.

    Every time you DARKENED Scoffers, spit forth you hatred of God’s Eternal Truth, on BU, you just create another opportunity for the Light of the Glorious Gospel of Christ to go forth.

    The Historic, Legal and Forensic EVIDENCE for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, as living truth, is so overwhelmning, positive, negative, factual, and circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world, presented with such EVIDENCE, could fail to bring in a virdict that the RESURRECTION story is TRUE.

    The burden of proof to the contrary is on YOU scoffers, and YOU have NONE!!


  2. Thanatos

    “Yes, Anony, the Hawks representing Satan are out, the Haters of Almighty God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Eternal Truth, are spewing forth their utter voidness, banter, and filth, to NO AVAIL, whatsoever!”

    First let me state upfront that you guys misunderstand this thing. What god haters what! You fellas backing yourself into a corner. If anybody believes in a Creator other than your own God, you think the world come to and end. So now you calling people haters of almighty god, where you get that from?

    You too quick to create labels and try to stigmatise. I told you people already that you don’t have any monopoly on the word “god”… and when one speaks of god yours is not the only one.

    You have to first understand what god means and understand what you are worshipping… and know that you should not be worshipping anything. The real Creator don’t ask you to do a thing. The Creator gave you life and gave you resources which you should use for your own advancement; or maybe somebody else’s.

    Anything that asks you to worship it, is false and is certainly not the Creator… but if you want to call him god, that is your problem, just understand that the entire universe does not revolve around or is not influenced by your god… and neither did he make or create it. It is way out of his bounds.


  3. @Thanatos

    “The Historic, Legal and Forensic EVIDENCE for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, as living truth, is so overwhelmning, positive, negative, factual, and circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world, presented with such EVIDENCE, could fail to bring in a virdict that the RESURRECTION story is TRUE.”

    Please show me the evidence. You do more than the collection of scholars that studied this thing for centuries, but show me and I will believe you. Don’t worry with the jury because the verdict of the jury will only be majority opinions. Juries have been known to convict innocent people; even today.


  4. Extra Biblical source, e.g., Governor Pliny’s description: judicial inquiry to Trajan, from Pontus0Bithynia, c. 112 A.D.

    “…in the case of those who were denounced as Christians, I have OBSERVED the following procedure: I INTERROGATED these as to whether they were Christians, those who confessed, I interrogated a SECOND and THIRD time, threatening them with punishment: those who persisted I ordered EXECUTED ( Cf. Acts. 5: 12 -42, I Peter 1:1- 9 & 2:11-17)…Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image…and moreover, cursed Christ- none of which THOSE who are really CHRISTIANS, it is said, can be forced to do [Cf. I Cor. 12: 2-3) – these I thought should be discharged…Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, buy then denied it, aserting that they had been, but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.”

    “They asserted, however, that the sum and substrance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god [Cf. Phil 2:5-11), and to bind themselves by oath, nit to some crime, but to not commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify teir trust, not to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When it was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food- but ordinary and innocent food [i.e., not cannibalism, Cf. I Cor. 10: 1-11, esp 10: 16-17]…Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out whsat the truth was by torturing two females slaves, who were called deaconesses [Cf. Rom. 16: 1-2] But I discovered nothing else but but depraved excessive superstition.”

    There have been more people martyred for their faith in Jesus Christ in the 20th Century, than in all the previois ninteen combined.

    According to World Mission Digest, there are some 100 million martyrs in this so called ‘modern’ 20th Century.

    More people have died in circumstances related to their faith (In Christ) in this century than in all the 20t Century wars combined.

    No other religious group of people have been more persected and totured over the centuries like Christian have.

    Psalm 115: 6: Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints.”

    Provebs 24: 11-12: “Rescue those being led away to death, hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say, ‘but we knew nothing about this’ does not He who weighs the heart perceive it?…Will He not repay ecach person according to what he has done?”

    Acts 12: 26: ‘Peter was in prison, but prayer was being made fervently by the Churh”

    I Cor. 12: 26: “If one part suffers, every part suffers with it”

    2 Thess 1:4: “We speak proudly of you among the churchs for your perseverence and faith in the midst of the persecution you endure.”

    I Peter 4: 12-18: “If you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.”


  5. I don’t answer FOOLS, comprehensive info was given in previous threads, the prepondence of which simply cannot be refuted, other than by FOOLS; who know nothing about the meaning of, ‘Coherence’ Logic, Congruence, all of which support and confirm the facts and evidence!


  6. @Thanatos…

    You are beginning to sound a bit like Zoe, GP, et al…

    @Thanatos: “Light (Jesus Christ) came into this world…

    Did Christ come into this world anonymously?

    Did Christ not stand up for what he believed?

    Did Christ not die for what he believed?

  7. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    CH

    Are you admitting that Christ CAME into this world and that he DIED?

    Or did you slip up?

    Seeing that Christ is/was God the Creator, how do you describe his coming to earth to lie in a manger and live in obscurity for at least 30 years?

    According to the dictionaries I have I think that would be considered “anonymously” woudnt you?

    HOWEVER, WHEN HE COMES AGAIN EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM! That wont be annonymous at all, my friend.

    You dont have to answer. I will understand.


  8. Seeing that Christ is/was God the Creator, how do you describe his coming to earth to lie in a manger and live in obscurity for at least 30 years?

    According to the dictionaries I have I think that would be considered โ€œanonymouslyโ€ woudnt you?

    Now GP…..you really have me lost here….
    Wasn’t Christ coming to earth foretold by the same scriptures?
    What of the 3 wise men, the hunt to kill him by a King etc??
    According to my logic And my dictionary……this cant be anonymously.

    PS…I went to Foundation..:)


  9. @GP
    “According to the dictionaries I have I think that would be considered โ€œanonymouslyโ€ woudnt you?”

    More like clandestine. How anonymous could a person be who said the things Christ is reported as saying? And furthermore, identified himself as the son of your god?

    He wasn’t here, was he? It never happened, did it?

    @GP
    “HOWEVER, WHEN HE COMES AGAIN EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM!”

    I see him everyday fella. I am watching him. Problem is, will you recognise him when you see him? He has been here for a while now GP, just that the fireworks ain’t start yet.

    Better hope that the eagle can deliver the goods. Right now that is our only salvation. Has the Lion of Judah prevailed?

  10. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Technician

    I went to Foundation too for a while and I enjoyed it.

    Re Wasnโ€™t Christ coming to earth foretold by the scriptures? YES. But yet when he came there was no fanfare. He came as a babe with peasant parents to a manger bed. Tell me how many knew that he had come? A few shepherds? The angels? Anna? Simeon?

    What of the 3 wise men, the hunt to kill him by a King etc?? WHAT OF THEM? NOTE THAT THE KING DIDNT KNOW HE WAS THERE OR WHERE TO FIND HIM WHEN HE HE ARD THAT A KING WAS AROUND.

    Not exactly a coming like Princes William & Harry Eh?

    When Jesus came the first time who knew? We know more today about Obama’s dog than folk knew about Jesus when he came.

    Jesus was around for 30 years and was unknown. He was right there under thier noses and they did not know that the “carpenter’s son” was the King of Kings and all the kingly titles assigned to him in the book of Isaiah. That sounds annonymous to me.

    Man even when he revealed himself the folk of his day did not recognize him as the Christ.

    BUT OF MORE SIGNIFICANCE & IMPORTANCE TODAY is this

    HE CAME UNTO HIS OWN AND HIS OWN RECIEVED HIM HIM NOT

    BUT
    AS MANY AS RECIEVED HIM….
    TO THEM GAVE HE POWER (or the right) TO BECOME THE TEKNOI or CHILDREN OF GOD


  11. I believe in God, and communicate with him ever day.

    The prevalent interpretations of the bible, i have a problem with.
    Religion ultimately is a one man journey. And i really dislike how Christians read specific verses from the bible, out of context, to support what every issue they want. The Devil did it as well.

    Why act as though you have all the answers written in a book and then when someone asks a question label them as devil worshipers and give no answer.

    I never question Christians faith in their leader’s interpretation of the bible, only faith in themselves(God’s best creation).

    Why would my all powerful, perfect omnipotent God, Create creation, with flaws!! Then, write a book for all mankind to follow, Then give us all different languages? Is the chance for salvation only for a certain set?

    Wouldn’t having a written set of rules, open for interpretation by anyone give anyone the chance to use the rules for personal gain. The rules for godly living cant be only written, they have to be ‘pre-programed’ into each and every one of us.

    Form personal experience the Bajan christian has no knowledge of the history of the big business known as the christian church. I am compelled to shed some light on to the history of the christian church, then we would have a background and know exactly what we are dealing with. This seams like the best tread to start in.

    First point: The first slave ship was named? you guessed it JESUS.


  12. @Dr. Georgie Porgie

    If you were pastoring to a congregation with some in the pews who quizzed you in the way some like ROK has done would you ignore them or try to engage them?

  13. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    David
    First I am not a pastor!

    In 41 years of attending Bible teaching Bible believing churches in Barbados and other parts of the world I HAVE NEVER ONCE MET ANYONE OR ANYTHING THAT TALKS THE AMOUNT OF NONSENSE ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD AS I HAVE READ ON BU.

    Nor have I read such.

    As I said earlier, when a medical student listens to several normal hearts, when he hears an abnormal heart beat or a murmur he can recognize it immediately.

    In like manner, having sought to learn the truth of the Word by reading widely on the subject, and sifting out the fundamentals, I can recognize error immediately.

    The scriptures teach clearly who to answer and who to ignore in the proof texts on this matter in Proverbs, I Peter and 2 Timothy. I will obey the Scriptures.

  14. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Re Why would my all powerful, perfect omnipotent God, Create creation, with flaws!!

    THE GENESIS RECORD AND THE SEVVERAL OTHER PASSAGES ABOUT THE CREATION ALL INDICATE THAT THERE WERE NO FLAWS IN THE CREATION

    Then, write a book for all mankind to follow, Then give us all different languages?

    IF YOU WILL READ THE ACCOUNT OF THE TOWER OF BABEL YOU WILL READ ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.

    Genesis 11:1 reads
    AND THE WHLE EARTH WAS OF ONE LANGUAGE AND OF ONE SPEECH.

    Did you read that before spewing foolishness here?

    Is the chance for salvation only for a certain set?

    John 3:16 teaches For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Does that help?

    And to go down the line that you seek to be going, how do you like 1 Corinthians 1:26?

    For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not MANY wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:

    note it does not say not ANY

    So that gives smart alecs lkike you who profess yourself to be wise a CHANCE, doesn’t it?

  15. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Ready-Done
    .
    Re The prevalent interpretations of the bible, i have a problem with.

    WHO IS SURPRISED WITH THAT? YOU ADMIT YOU DONโ€™T READ IT MUCH.
    YOU DEMONSTRATE BY YOUR PUERILE QUESTIONS THAT YOU DONโ€™T KNOW IT. So how can you even know what is the correct interpretation?

    Re Religion ultimately is a one man journey.
    RELIGION IS ESSENTIALLY A MAN MADE WAY OF APPEASING WHAT EVER HIS GOD IS.

    Christianity has to do with following Christ. The origin of the term “Christian” is given in Acts 11:25-26 as follows:
    Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul, and when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
    Jesus said I am THE way, the TRUTH, and the LIFE; NO MAN cometh to the Father, but BY ME! (John 14:6)

    Re And i really dislike how Christians read specific verses from the bible, out of context, to support what every issue they want. The Devil did it as well.

    HERE IS A SELF CONFESSED NON READER OF THE BIBLE —- and it shows trying to say that Christians read specific verses from the bible, out of context, to support what every issue they want. HOW WOULD AN OBVIOUS BIBLE ILLITERATE AND NOVICE KNOW?

    Re Why act as though you have all the answers written in a book and then when someone asks a question label them as devil worshipers and give no answer.

    ANSWERS TO THIS HAS BEEN GIVEN PREVIOUSLY ON THIS BLOG. Cant you read?
    Christians might be stupid to you, but they have the right to answer whom they believe are not ASKING AN ANSWER OF THE HOPE THAT IS IN THEM. Christians will ALWAYS answer questions about THE BLESSED HOPE.

    Re Wouldnโ€™t having a written set of rules, open for interpretation by anyone give anyone the chance to use the rules for personal gain.

    Are the laws of Barbados or any other place โ€œopen for interpretation by anyone?โ€™
    Certainly the laws of God as presented in His Word are interpreted by any and every one as they like. And UNBELIEVERS LOVE IT LIKE THIS so why are you quibbling about the rules being open for interpretation by anyone, WHEN YOU YOURSELF HAVE EXPRESSED THE VIEW THAT THIS OUGHT TO BE SO UNDER FREE SPEECH?

    You cant have it both ways Sir? Have you not heard how the Lord came down to Sinai in a space craft? Or how Jonah escaped from the sea in a submarine? Yes Sir ONLY ON BU!

    Re The rules for godly living cant be only written, they have to be โ€˜pre-programedโ€™ into each and every one of us.

    So you are God now? Wont โ€˜pre-programingโ€™ the rules into each and every one of us PRECLUDED THE RIGHT OF VOLITION OR FREE WILL TO CHOSE?.


  16. GP
    You are good at taking a dog back to its vomit and a pig to his wallowing in the mire as taught in 2 Peter2:22.

    You have done it twice this week in masterly fashion taking them through thier muck point by point.

    And on the basis of Jude vs 9, you dont have to dispute or “engage” the devil.


  17. David

    GP is being rather childish but most of all, can’t ever answer a simple question without cutting and pasting half the bible. All tricks! He really has no answers to my questions.

    He can only mesmerise the gullible. He can’t even handle Technician, one of his sympathisers, so how he can handle me. Not to mention how Hopi does lick he one-side and cat-spraddle he every time she get a chance.

    Best of all I like how BT does kufuffle he until he senility sets in. Too much licks in this forum so he got to shun some.

    His response to you is a typical sidestep and he does pull fast ones like reference to Proverbs, I Peter and 2 Timothy. Such sketchy references from him are usually bluffs. BT hold he the other day pulling a fast one.

    This time, he get 1 out of 3 = 33.33%; not even a pass.

    2 Timothy: “But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.”

    Except that my babblings are neither profane nor vain (maybe to him), so he actually got 15/100 for that reference; very generous.


  18. @GP

    I have come to the conclusion, especially with your last response to Ready-Done, that you are not worth the effort. Your good friend thinks you are good for carrying dogs back to their vomit and a pig back to his wallowing.

    I don’t think he understands how accurate he is because both is about staying in ignorance.


  19. @GP
    “IF YOU WILL READ THE ACCOUNT OF THE TOWER OF BABEL YOU WILL READ ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.

    Well! Well! Well! Long before the dating of the bible, there were different languages. Different languages came because of distances between peoples and people’s propensity to communicate.

    Let us take sign language as an example. Children have been known to create their own sign language among themselves. The tower of Babel cannot be even conceived as the creation of different languages, NONSENSE! As a scholar, I would expect you to use your brain rather than resort to silly stories fit for capturing the imagination of imbeciles.

    Genesis 11:1 reads
    “AND THE WHLE EARTH WAS OF ONE LANGUAGE AND OF ONE SPEECH.”

    “Did you read that before spewing foolishness here?”

    That in itself is foolishness; never could have happened. All of this was made to dehumanise man and put him in his place, as the Massa put the slaves in theirs. It was designed to rob humanity of its rich history and the tribes of their pride.

    After several civilisations spent centuries developing their languages, you come with a story that tells them that their language was born out of disobedience to your god. How sinister!


  20. @ GP et al……

    Seriously though, what makes your ways the ‘right’ ways and all others wrong?
    Can’t the same argument be put forth for ALL denominations?


  21. @ Ready-Done

    “Re Religion ultimately is a one man journey.
    RELIGION IS ESSENTIALLY A MAN MADE WAY OF APPEASING WHAT EVER HIS GOD IS.”

    Don’t be put off by GP’s obvious scorn for you. He is trying to insult your intelligence.

    Re: “ANSWERS TO THIS HAS BEEN GIVEN PREVIOUSLY ON THIS BLOG. Cant you read?”

    This is the kind of person you are dealing with. He ain’t no better than Zoe or the other three or four that have no respect for people and pure venom comes out of their mouths.

    You shall know them by their fruit and from what I have seen, that is the fruit of christians like GP. They are an insult to christianity and as the “RIGHT” Rev. Errington Massiah said, you are enemies of the church.

    The fundamental difference between you and the established church is that the church knows its bounds. You don’t!

  22. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    Technician
    Seriously though, what makes your ways the โ€˜rightโ€™ ways and all others wrong? Canโ€™t the same argument be put forth for ALL denominations?

    Thatโ€™s a good question Techie.

    Since ALL the denominations CLAIM to be using the SAME TEXT, it is obvious that EVERY denomination cant be all correct if they interpret THE SAME TEXTS IN A DIFFERENT WAY!

    Does that make sense?

    Folk who try to decipher what the text says, and what the text means by STUDY and COMPARING SCRIPTURE WITH OTHER SCRIPTURES HAVING SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURE are likely to be the most correct. Donโ€™t you think?

    For one thing there are folk who will read a text that says one thing very clearly and then will interpret it to mean the complete opposite! Maybe folk who do that are in error. I dont know. I am no expert, just a serious Bible student. I will let you judge.

    When I hear a Dr say that the treatment for acute appendicitis is other than appendicectomy I know that he is in error.

    Seriously though Techie, what makes my ways the โ€˜wrongโ€™ ways and all others right? LOL


  23. @ROK…… Why you wanna get me started again? Anyhow my wise & enlightened bro, keep plugging away. I see that the asylum has dumped two more pious lunatic here. That’s not fair to BU!
    Can you believe that the same people who brought us ‘christianity’ and that ‘civilised’ the whole earth are now getting ready to BOMB the moon come Oct of this year? How can this man be about ‘god’ and ‘peace’ and destruction at the same time? What a glaring dichotomy? Something does not add up!

    @GP……
    Along the same veins of that Tower of Babel piece. Why do you think that ‘God’ would have to come down to see the tower which the children of men built? Couldn’t the [all/everything god] see that tower from ‘his’ location and why would ‘he’ seek to confound their language? And according to verse 6……’and now nothing will be restrained fr them which they have imagined to do’…doesn’t this sound like a nasty-minded, spiteful, envious ‘god’ who knew that these people were mighty? Is this the God of the Bible or is this the CREATOR?

    Awaiting your clarification.


  24. GP wrote
    When I hear a Dr say that the treatment for acute appendicitis is other than appendicectomy I know that he is in error.

    Similarly, if we are ALL supposed to be going by the SAME BOOK when the text says clearly in Genesis 11:1 โ€œAND THE WHOLE EARTH WAS OF ONE LANGUAGE AND OF ONE SPEECH,โ€ it seems to clearly mean to me that THE WHOLE EARTH WAS OF ONE LANGUAGE AND OF ONE SPEECH.

    When a person interprets a straight forward text as the one above different to what it is clearly saying, it seems to me that such a person is clearly in error.

    What is obvious to me (and I am a young novice not an old man trying to compete with an obvious superior intellect and Bible knowledge) is that many denominations do not seem to follow the Bible as they claim, but follow the traditions of men; traditions of their own devising.


  25. Is it clear to everyone else here that GP and Anonnymouse are the a same person? Has anyone ever seen them together?

  26. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    Hopi

    The answer that I will quickly give to your fantastic question is simply
    I DO NOT KNOW HOPI. LOL

    I hope you can enlighten me (with an alternative view) even though I will defer to the reasoning of the highly regarded Bible scholars. LOL

  27. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    Themis asked
    Is it clear to everyone else here that GP and Anonnymouse are the a same person? Has anyone ever seen them together?

    Brilliant deduction Themis. For that I give the forum this lovely outline on the person of Jesus Christ from JOHN CHAPTER 1

    SUPREMACY OF HIS PERSON vs 1 & 2
    eternally God
    equally God cf John 5 Phil 2
    essentially God

    SUPREMACY OF HIS POWER vs 3
    Maker & master of creation
    cf collosians

    made macrososm
    made microcosm

    SUPREMACY OF HIS PURPOSE vs 4
    strength of earthly life
    secret of effective life
    source of eternal life

    Could you “flesh out this outline for me?”

  28. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    For those silent readers who are lapping good teaching on the BU Bible threads here are Some thoughts on Canonicity & The Dead Sea Scrolls from an essay in Bibliology.

    You can this to the notes given before on Manuscripts

    The accidental finding in 1947 near the dead sea of some old Hebrew manuscripts which were well preserved on rolls of thin leather, put into the hands of scholars “The Dead Sea Scrolls”, included in which were quotations from every book of the Old Testament except for the book of Esther.

    Not only were there complete copies of some of the Old Testament books but sections from multiple manuscripts. Sections of fourteen manuscripts of Deuteronomy, twelve of Isaiah and ten of the Psalms were found in just one cave.

    Of the approximately 100 manuscripts of Old Testament portions, a number of them, if translated into Greek, would have read very much like the Septuagint. As they are, in Hebrew, many of them are like the Hebrew text which we use today.

    It is quite true that we do not have the very book of Genesis which was actually written by the hand of Moses on papyrus -a paper made from a plant that grew along the Nile River of Egypt, since this was not a permanent type of paper. Thus the originals have long since been destroyed.

    We know, however, that because the Jews of the Old Testament era realized how holy the Word of God was, whenever they made copies of it, that they would discard the whole page and start over, if they made even a small error on a page.

    At the end of the page they counted how many letters there were on the page so they could know if they had left anything out. Thus, although small errors ( called variants ) crept in occasionally, these small errors were not such as to significantly change any actual teaching in the manuscripts

    From the time of the Great Synagogue until about the year 500 A.D. they immerged professional scribes among the Jews whose role was to protect and study the Hebrew texts of the Old Testament.

    This important work was passed along from generation to generation until in about the year 500 A.D. there came a new and important development which resulted in the production of the Masoretic text – the text that is still used today in studying the Old Testament .

    The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls proves the relationship between the Great Synagogue and the Masoretic Texts from which the Old Testament that we currently used are derived.The Septuagint also confirms that our current text is like the great Synagogue text. Thus the texts which we use today when we translate the Bible into other languages are reliable manuscripts which conveythe message God wants mankind to have.

    Critics of the Bible often deny the age of the Bible by saying that that Moses could not have written the first five books of the Old Testament because there was no such thing as writing when Moses lived. However, we know that the Sumerians had writing 1500 years before Moses.

    Others deny the age of the Bible by saying that there were no books written until some hundreds of years after Christ was on earth. This foolish argument contradicts the fact that Platoโ€™s “The Republic” was written 400 B.C. among many written prior to Christโ€™s advent. Some claim that Christians have changed parts of the Old Testament to suit their own purposes.

    However, Dead Sea Scrolls prove that at least 200 years before Christ even came to earth the Old Testament then used was like the one we now use. In addition, Christians never came into existence until over 200 years after the Dead Sea Scrolls were put in to the cave in which they were preserved.


  29. ROK

    I love to read you man.
    I loved your answers to my questions last week so much that I thought I woud ask you some more this week.

    Can you help me with the answers to any of the following questions?

    1.Who is the main character in the Bible?

    2.What is the main theme of the Bible?
    3.What was the first book to be written?

    4.What happened to Israel when they disobeyed God?

    5.What was the “Great Synagogue”? What was its purpose?
    6.Explain how important the Greek language became after the completion of the work of the Great Synagogue.
    7.What was the Septuagint? How long did it take to complete it?

    8.What are the Dead Sea Scrolls? What was the major portion of them about?
    9.When did the Jewish scribes began to use vowel marks in their copies of the Scriptures? Why did they do that? What is the text they produced called?
    10. How old is the oldest Greek manuscript? How can you tell the age of a manuscript?
    11.How many manuscripts or portions thereof are in existence today?
    12.Do the variants effect the teaching of Scripture?
    13.When the Bible speaks on the subject of science, is it accurate?
    14.What kind of philosophy is contained in the Bible?
    15. Can the Bible be called the Word of man?
    16 Could the Bible have come from man alone?
    17 Discuss how prophesies and their fulfillment confirms the Bible is a divine book.
    18 What are the chances that eight of the 55 prophecies about the Lord Jesus Christ being fulfilled?
    19- What is the difference between the Bible and Christ?
    20- Explain the supposed error between Acts 15:14-18 and Amos 9:11.

    Looking foward to your brilliant answers soon


  30. It is impossible to try and ‘reason’ with those who have no concept of ‘rational’ inquiry into any given subject matter, be it Law, Medicine, Engineering, History, or the Word of God, the Bible.

    For, Reason, (rational thought) IS necessary, for Revelation to be Coherent.

    When secular historians are investigating any particular aspect of history, they painstakingly research from the beginning of the ‘subject’ seeking to unravel, ‘Logically’ with a focus on Coherence, in order to put together what is a rational picture, based on evidence and facts, in order to arrive at the truth.

    Therefore, Truth, regardless of what the subject is, is grounded in intentionality.

    Propositions have intentionality, oftness, aboutness, directedness, towards an object.

    Almighty God, has given to humanity, His Word, the Scriptures; contained therein, are Propositional statements regarding His Creation of everything, focusing on Man, and while the ‘Scoffers’ reject God’s Revelation in history, the ‘Coherence’ of the historic evidence and facts, re His propositional declarations, as recorded in the Bible, give a consistent picture throughout the history of mankind, ancient civilizations, empires, their rise and demise, etc, etc, exactly as His Word declared.

    This IS Coherence, congruence, which is entirely Logical.

    Therefore, ‘Correspondence’ is a two-placed relation between a ‘Proposition’ i.e., God’s Word, and the state of affairs, (History) which consistently confirm overwhelmingly, exactly what the Bible, God’s Word, states will unfold, which is its intentional object.

    Unless one can understand and grasp these sound principles of ‘rational’ thought, coupled with the fundamental rules of Logic, not emotional, presuppositional ‘bias’ one will never be able to follow the ‘thread’ of Biblical, propositional, declarations, ALL of which have, and are continuing to unfold exactly as declared.

    As I have quoted before:

    “A proposition of fact, is proved when its truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence.”
    (Simon Greenleaf, ‘Testimony of the Evangelists…rules of municiple Law).

    Regarding the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, Sir Edward Clark, K.C, said:

    “As a lawyer I have made prolonged study of the evidence for the events of Easter Day. To me the evidence is conclusive, and over and over again in the High Court, I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. Inference follows on evidence, and a truthful witness is always artless and disdain effect. The Gospel evidence for the Resurrection is of this class, and as a lawyer I accept it unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to the facts they were able to substantiate.”

    John Singleton Copley, better known as Lord Lyndhurst (1772-1863), recognised as one of the greatest legal minds in British history, when Chancellor Lyndhurst died, a document was found in his desk, among his private papers, giving an extended acount of his own Christian faith, he wrote:

    “I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the Resurrection, has never broken down yet. The evidence points unmistakably to the fact that on the third day Jesus rose.”

    Speaking on the forensic nature of the New Tesatament narratives, Bernard Ramn says:

    “In Acts 1, Luke tells us that Jesus showed Himself ALIVE by many infallible proofs ( en pollois tekmeriois) an expression indicating the strongest type of legal evidence.”

    The Testimony of History and Law.

    When an event takes place in history and there are enough people alive who were eyewitnesses of it, or had participated in the event, and when the information is published, one is able to verify the validity of an historical event (circumstantial evidence).

    Ambrose Fleming asserts with a challenge to intellectual honesty, that if such a “…study is pursued with what eminent lawyers have called a willing mind, it will engender a deep assurance that the Christian Church, is not founded on fiction, or nourished on delusions, or as the Apostle Peter calls them. “cunningly devised fables, ‘but on historical and actual events, which however strange they may be, are indeed the greatest events which ever happened in the history of the world.”

    The Evidence throughout 2000 years of Church history, in the amazingly transformed lives of billions of people across the face of the earth, is again, “Coherent” consistent evidence of the reality of our Resurrected Saviour and Lord, NOT religion, but, a personal, living, day by day, relationship, with HIM, who alone can transform any of us, from within.


  31. @Anonymouse

    “When a person interprets a straight forward text as the one above different to what it is clearly saying, it seems to me that such a person is clearly in error.”

    Surely you missed the point. The point being whether or not the statement being interpreted is accurate. My contention is that the statement is inaccurate and that I do not trust your source of the statement given the historical and cultural reality of what transpired before the bible was written.

    It would therefore seem to me, that any interpretation of that statement which is based on a false premise will be inaccurate.

    You see, once you reach the realm where you are saying that you created the world, then you have to provide answers that fit a world view. At that time, it may have fit the world view of many, but in these days of enlightenment, that statement has left a lot to be desired; especially in light of the fact that the bible is clearly a re-write of history to make somebody look like they are the almighty.

    If he did not provide answers, you would question his claim and we really can’t have that, can we?

    What GP should tell you is that when men spoke of the world, they meant only the part they knew. You see, that is why Columbus “Discovered” the West. We know that is a joke and that it was just a question of perspective. How could he discover what was already there? He merely came upon it.


  32. Would not the evidence for the resurre ction be hearsay? That is not normally admissible.


  33. @GP….come on brother. You really don’t know that answer? They why wait for me to give an ‘alternative view?’ I ask these questions because this book is simply too unbelievable. You can poke so many holes right thru it. Like, why did God himself bury Moses and not allow his own people to bury him and where is he buried? Could it be that the Moses the ‘jews’ spoke of never really existed, but is based on King Tutmoses of Ancient Egypt?

    Can’t you see what’s going on here with these so called ‘Dead Sea Scrolls.’ Again the ‘jews’ have control over them. The same people who wrote the 1st few books of the bible in which they say that ‘God’ gave them Palestine/Canaan and that Canaan (the Blacks) should be their servants. Don’t you see something wrong with this? The ‘keepers’ of the knowledge are some of the biggest liars and deceivers on this planet today. Another proof of their lie from the get-go is found in Gen 12 where Abram told Sarai to lie to the ‘Egyptians’ and tell them that she was his sister. How can God’s chosen operate lie this? Do you support them GP?

    @Zoe……how long have you been a biblicalist and still cutting and pasting?

    โ€œI know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the Resurrection, has never broken down yet. The evidence points unmistakably to the fact that on the third day Jesus rose.โ€

    But where is this evidence? Where is this evidence? By saying that there is evidence is one thing but not producing it, fishy, fishy. So because it came from a Britshit Lord it MUST be credible. Sweet Jesus, look at the efficacy of colonialism!

    This whole resurrection theme came straight out of Ancient Egypt…..their obelisk (which the europeans stole and are using negatively today) represented the RESURRECTION. So here we go again with some more patch work.


  34. @ Themis, “Would not the evidence for the resurrection be hearsay? That is not normally admissible.”

    No, absolutely not, what has been recorded in the NT narrative, from an legal evidence perspective, is not ‘hearsay’ but what the writers ‘Saw with their own eyes.’

    Here are some of the NT accounts.

    I SAW WITH MY OWN EYES.

    II Peter 1:16.

    “For we DID NOT follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, BUT, WE WERE EYEWITNESSES of His majesty.”

    They certainly knew the difference between myth, legend, and reality.

    EYEWITNESSES.

    I John 1: 1-3.
    “What was from the beginning, what we have HEARD, what we have SEEN with our eyes, what we BEHELD and our hands handled, concerning the Word of Life (Jesus) – and the life was manifested, and we have SEEN and bear WITNESS and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested TO US – what we have SEEN and HEARD, we proclaim to you also, that you may also have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ.”

    Luke 1: 1-3.
    “In as much as many have undertaken to complie an account of the things accomplished among us, just as those from the beginning were EYEWITNESSES and servants of the Word have handed them dpwn to us, it seemed fitting for me as well, have investigated EVERYTHING CAREFULLY from the beginning, to write out for you in consecutive (Coherent) order, most excellent Theophilus.”

    Acts 1: 1-3.
    “The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day He was taken up, (Resurrected) after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. To these He presented Himself ALIVE, after His suffering, BY MANY CONVINCING PROOFS, appearing to them over a period of forty days, and speaking of the things concerning the Kingdom of God.”

    I Corinthians 15: 6-8.
    “After He appeared to more than FIVE HUNDRED brethren at ONE time, most of whom remain (are alive) until now, but some have fallen asleep (died); then He appeared to James, then to ALL the apostles; and last of all, as it were to one ultimately bornm He appeared to me also.”

    Acts 10: 39-42.
    “And we are WITNESSES of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And they also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. God raised Him up on the third day, and granted that He should become visible, not to all people, but to WITNESSES who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us, who ate and drank with Him, AFTER He rose from the dead. And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to TESTIFY that this IS the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.”

    I Peter 5:1
    “Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow-elder and WITNESS of the suffering of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed.”

    Acts 1:9.
    “And after He had said these things, He was lifted (ascended) up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.”

    It is significant that the inability to distinguish Jesus’ claim for Himself from the New Testament writers’ claim for Him should not cause no dismay, since (1) the situation exactly parallels that for all historical personages who have not themselves chosen to write ( e.g., Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar, Charlemagne). We would hardly claim that in these cases we can achieve no adequate historical portraits. Also, (2) the New Testament writers, recorded EYEWITNESS testimony concerning Jesus, and can therefore be trusted to convey an accurate historical picture of Him.

    The Apostles were witnesses of His Resurrected Life.

    Luke 24: 48 Acts 13: 31
    Acts 1:8 I Cor. 15: 4-9
    Acts 2:32 I Cor. 15: 15
    Acts 3:15 I John 1:2
    Acts 4:33 Acts 22: 15
    Acts 5:32 Acts 23: 11
    Acts 10:39 Acts 26: 16
    Acts 10:41

    Christianity Is a FACTual Religion.

    Christianity appeals to history, the facts of history, the most patent and accessible of data, for Jesus is a fact of history cognizable as any other, Christianity is based on indisputable facts. The facts backing the Christian claim are not a special kind of religious fact, in that they are cognitive, coherent, informational facts upon which all historical, legal, and ordinary decisions are based.

    As Clark Pinnock writes:

    “It strives at laying the evidence for the Christian Gospel before men in an intelligent fashion, so that they can make a meaningful commitment under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. The heart cannot delight in what the mind rejects as false.

    Will the Real Mr. Excuse please Stand Up?

    The rejection of Christ is often not so much of the “mind” but of the “will”; not so much “I can’t,” but “I won’t.”

    Pascal, the French philosopher, writes:

    “The evidence of God’s existence and His gift is more than cmpelling, but those who insist that they have no need of Him or it, will always find ways to discount the offer.”


  35. @Zoe

    “No, absolutely not, what has been recorded in the NT narrative, from an legal evidence perspective, is not ‘hearsay’ but what the writers ‘Saw with their own eyes.’”

    Is that so Zoe? You guys are Johnnies come lately. You have not the first clue. However, Luke 1: 1-4 is very instructive:

    1: Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
    2: Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
    3: It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
    4: That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

    Just in case you don’t understand all of that, it is saying that Luke was commissioned to write an account of what transpired and he had to research it, claiming that he had interviewed eye witnesses and had procured the most accurate version because he spoke to eye witnesses.

    What this indicates is that the others did not interview eye witnesses but wrote the oral version of the story. My question to Luke’s claim is, even if these eye witnesses were alive at the time of Christ, they would have been children and could only have picked up the oral version.

    Hence my dear Zoe, it is all hearsay and the quotes formed part of the oral tradition. Imagine that you believe in something that you don’t have the first clue about.

    Any further challenge from you on this will only cause me to show up your ignorance about it some more.

    IT IS ALL HEARSAY.


  36. Anonymous

    You want somebody to write a thesis for you. You at theological college?


  37. @Zoe

    “It is impossible to try and โ€˜reasonโ€™ with those who have no concept of โ€˜rationalโ€™ inquiry into any given subject matter, be it Law, Medicine, Engineering, History, or the Word of God, the Bible.”

    WHAT RHETORIC!

    THE KETTLE CALLING THE POT BLACK!

    IT IS A PITY WHEN ONE CANNOT RECOGNISE ONE’S OWN DEFICIENCIES.


  38. To those who are quietly reading and learning, who can think critically, objectively, and appreciate the corroborative evidence drawn from Peter and John, “…but WE were EYEWITNESSES of His majesty…What was from the beginning, what we heard, what we have SEEN with our EYES, what we beheld and our hand handled…what we have SEEN and HEARD we proclaim to you also…” (II Peter 1:16; I John 1:1-3, ” He (Jesus) appeared to more than FIVE hundred brethren at ONE time…” ( I Cor. 15: 6),

    Luke, not an eyewitness, a Gentile, not a Jew, a highly trained intellect, with an historian’s method of research, with a physician’s care in diagnosis and discrimination, with reverence for and loyalty to Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, gives an orderly, systematic account of the facts and evidence, concerning the Lord Jesus Christ.

    “Forasmuch as…” (epeideper) A triple compound [epie = since, de = admittedly true, per = intensive particle to emphazise importance of what he is recording from ‘eyewitnesses’ ( autoptai) It occurs here only in the NT, we have the very word in the medical term ‘autopsy’ “…just as those who from the beginning were EYEWITNESSES and ministers of the word, delivered them TO US.” Luke is therefore undertaking “To draw up, a narrative…” “tasso” a common verb for arranging things in proper order, establishing the corrrespondence, consistency, coherence, which is corroboratory, confirmative, of the EYEWITNESS, who saw, held, touched, ate and drank with the Resurrected Saviour and Lord, Jesus Christ.

    Only intellectually dishonest persons, with no regard for facts and evidence, especially those accepted by Legal, forensic principles, can disregard such corroborative, historic accounts of what actually transpired in the Life of the Lord Jesus Christ!

  39. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Anonymous.

    Let me help you with some of your questions Sir.

    17 Discuss how prophesies and their fulfillment confirms the Bible is a divine book.

    Prophesies and their fulfillment confirms the Bible is a divine book, because of the exactness in minute and seemingly trivial detail in which they were fulfilled and the seeming unlikelihood that they would be fulfilled .

    One of the more dramatic prophecies concerns the ancient city of Tyre. Tyre was a very important sea port town in the Old Testament days. It was a trade rival of Jerusalem. The citizens of Tyre were especially proud and haughty. When Jerusalem was judged by God for her unfaithfulness, the people of Tyre laughed at the plight of the Hews and mocked them.

    Ezekiel, chapter 26 gives us the prediction of what was going to happen to Tyre. God was judging the Jews because they were His special people and He wanted to bring them to repentance, but He would not tolerate His special people being mocked by the ungodly people of Tyre.

    He predicted through the prophet Ezekiel what would happen to Tyre in judgment from God for their mockery of the Jews. Read Ezekiel 26 carefully.

    Note the details given in this prophecy. It clearly states that:
    1.Tyre would be taken by the Babylonians (verse 7).
    2.The king of the invaders would be Nebuchadnezzar (verse 7).
    3.Many nations would come up against Tyre (verse 3).
    4.The walls would be completely broken down (verse 4).
    5.The dust would be scraped off the city site (verse 4).
    6.Fishermen would use the site to spread their fishing nets (verse 5).
    7.The city would never be rebuilt (verse 4).

    And now you can add other details to the prophecy from other verses in the Bible.
    9.There would be re-establishment of Tyre seventy years after its destruction by Nebuchadnezzar (Isaiah 23:15-17; Jeremiah 25:11, 12).
    10. There would be another destruction (Zechariah 9:3,4).
    11. The destruction would be by fire (Zechariah 9:4).

    What do you think are the chances that a person could accurately predict in such detail what would happen to a city many years in the future?

    Could you predict that a city would be taken by a particular king, then restored after 70 years, then destroyed again?

    Could you give the details about the destruction?

    Could you predict that the city would never be re-established, but would become a place for fishermen to dry their nets? The chances of a person predicting such a thing by his own intelligence are simply impossible.

    Now, let us look at the fulfillment of this prophecy. Approximately three years after the prophecy was made, Nebuchadnezzar attacked the city. The people that he was leading were the Babylonians. (This fulfilled parts one and two of the prophecy.)

    You must understand something of the geography of Tyre in order to appreciate the rest of the fulfillment. Tyre was actually a double city. The main part was built on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea. There was another small part of the city that was built on an island just off shore. This island was heavily protected.

    When Nebuchadnezzar captured the city he found that many inhabitants had fled to the island fortress and thus escaped him. Of those captured, most were sold into slavery and sent to other countries. After about seventy years the mainland city was rebuilt and became a powerful city once again (prophecy nine).

    It was about 250 years later that the final fulfillment of this prophecy took place. It happened like this.

    Alexander the Great was a very famous and powerful world ruler. He marched from Greece as far east as what is now Pakistan and ruled the whole Mediterranean area. He marched down to Tyre to capture that city.

    Hearing that he was coming, the people abandoned the city on the mainland that had been rebuilt and fled to the island fort. This island was surrounded on all sides by the sea. It was half a mile from the shore of the city and had walls 150 feet high. In order to capture this island city, Alexander the Great tore down the mainland city brick by brick and dumped it all into the sea so as to make a road through the sea to the island (fulfilling prophecy number four).

    In order to fill the small holes between the bricks, his soldiers swept the place where the mainland city had been and poured the dust between the bricks (fulfilling prophecies ten and eleven).

    The few people who remained after the destruction were further attacked by Antigonus and by the Muslims again in the year 690 (fulfilling prophecy number three).

    Today there is no sign of the previous mainland city of Tyre. The modern city of Tyre is built on the island that is now a peninsula. The area where the mainland city used to be is now used by the fishermen as a place to spread their nets to dry (fulfilling prophecies seven and eight).

    The chances of a person accurately guessing what would happen to a city are unimaginable. One scholar said it would be one chance in 75,000,000 of guessing correctly if guessing only seven of these prophecies and we have listed eleven. This would seem to be rather adequate confirmation that the Bible is, indeed, the Word of God and is not just the words of man.

    18 What are the chances that eight of the 55 prophecies about the Lord Jesus Christ being fulfilled?

    The chances that eight of the 55 prophecies about the Lord Jesus Christ being fulfilled is only one chance in 10,000,000,000,000,000.

    19- What is the difference between the Bible and Christ?

    There are a number of characteristics that are shared by the Written Word and the Living Word. They are both totally divine and yet totally human, and yet both are totally without error or sin.

    We have already mentioned much about the Bible being at once a divine book and yet bearing the mark of the human authors. Christ was also divine and human.

    He had a human birth, a human mother. He had a human body. He had a human nature (Luke 2:52), but a human nature without sin (Hebrews 4:15). He is also divine. He is God. He was and is totally human and totally divine. He is the expression of what God wants us to know about Himself. God tells us what He wants us to know about Himself in the Written Word. He shows us what He wants us to know about Himself in the Living Word (Jesus Christ).

    20- Explain the supposed error between Acts 15:14-18 and Amos 9:11.
    In Acts 15:14-18, we have the record, written by Luke, of a speech given by James. In that speech, James quotes the Old Testament prophet Amos (Amos 9:11). If you compare what James said with what Amos said, you will note that the meaning is just the same, but that James does not quote Amos exactly. This is not an error because there is nothing which demands that the quotation be exact as long as it bears the same meaning. Since James has quoted accurately what the sense and content of Amosโ€™ message, there was no need to report it word-for-word., since he did not claim to be giving a verbatim report. Again this is a common feature of reporting to gave the substance of a speech instead of reporting the speech verbatim; the ipsima vox rather than the ipsima verba.

    There is a much better explanation; however, as to the differences in the prophecy of Amos and the quoting of that prophecy by James. When Amos gave the prophecy, it was written in Hebrew. When Luke wrote the book of Acts and reported the speech of James, he wrote in Greek. There is no way you can give an exact repetition of the Hebrew in Greek.

    There must be some difference. You will be doing quite well if you give the same sense, but you certainly cannot make them word-for-word the same.

    There is a further explanation for the difference, however. It is not known for sure, but it is thought that James, when giving his speech, was probably speaking in Aramaic, since that was the commonly used language in that place at that time. So, now you have James speaking in Aramaic, giving a translation of the Hebrew of Amos and all of that being reported in Greek by Luke. Is it any wonder that it does not come out exactly the same?

    That would be a similar situation as to what we have with James and Amos. It is foolish to look at the book of Acts and then at the book of Amos and accuse the Bible of error simply because the two verses are not exactly alike. These are just a couple of the apparent contradictions or errors of the Bible which are not really errors at all once we understand them properly.

  40. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    Anonymous.

    Let me help you with some more answers to your questions Sir.

    14.What kind of philosophy is contained in the Bible?

    The Bible is not a book of philosophy. Yet, it states a philosophy that is higher and holier than anything dreamed of by man. There is no philosophy invented by men that can even approach the philosophy of the Bible.

    It is a philosophy that is God-centered rather than man-centered. It seeks the glory of God rather than the glory of man. It is the only philosophy that deals with all the facts of the universe and still leads to hope and satisfaction.

    It is the only philosophy which adequately answers the question of who man is, how he differs from the animals, what his destiny is and how he is related to the universe.

    15. Can the Bible be called the Word of man?
    NO

    16 Could the Bible have come from man alone?

    The Bible could NOT have come from man alone because the variety of information therein is not the sort of thing that man could have imagined. No other book has the power within it to transform a single life, yet the Bible continues to do this throughout the ages.

    The initial success of the reformation was not due to the instigators but because common folk were able to read the Bible and have the Author Himself interpret it in their hearts.

    The Bible could Not have come from man alone because no other book has the ability to make itself real to the reader. When you read the Word you Know that it is Godโ€™s Word โ€“ you know that it is true! ( Even if you choose to reject itโ€™s truth). This is an inexplicable truth about the Bible.

    When you know the Word well and you hear another preach โ€“you know what he must say next if he is rightly dividing it ( e.g an honest discussion of Noah will consider Gen 6&7 I Pet 3:20, 2 Pet 2:5, Mt 24:38&39, Lk7:27 & Heb 11:7).

    The Bible is the only Book that is presented like a gig saw puzzle and yet makes proper sense to a reader . No man would write the story of Noah as disjointed as cited above, but the Genesis account only reaches its majestic heights when examined in the light of the comments of Jesus, Paul & Peter.

    The comment of the lives of those discussed in Hebrews 11 adds a touch of grandeur that the initial accounts do not; it is for this reason that we are thought that you must read your Bible through. I did not appreciate Shakespeare or Virgil at the first reading, why should I expect to appreciate the full beauty of any section of the Word in a solitary reading.

    There are few books that anyone reads more than once, but serious Bible readers do so at least once a year just to stay in tune apart from trying to really study it.

    No stories have the power to capture oneโ€™s attention and memory than those in the Bible; Joseph forgives his brothers, Calebโ€™s courage, Daniel in the lionโ€™s den, David & Goliath, the love of Jonathan for David, The Prodigal Son, the Good Samaritan, Jacob & Rachel, Isaac & Rebekak are stories that once read as tiny tots continue to tug at the heart throughout life. No simple story in any man written book can do this. The immortal classics are poor seconds.

    Dying men call for one book to be read to themโ€”Godโ€™s book. Apart from the above, there is a unity in the Bible that is unique, and captivating to its lovers. From the beginning to the end there is one theme, God’s working with mankind.

    There is one view of God presented. There is one view of man and his sin. There is one view of how man must get rid of his sin. There is one view of the future of mankind after death. There is such a unity from beginning to end that it is impossible for the Bible to be of only human origin. If a group of men were to gather together in one place at one time and purposely decide to write such a book, they could not come up with such a consistent, unified book.

    The Bible, however, was written by over forty men living over a period of 2100 years. That such a large group of men living over such a long period could write such a unified book by themselves is simply not possible. there are many subjects in the Bible about which people argue.

    The Bible, however, presents a single, unified answer to each of these subjects. Such a thing does not ordinarily happen. Ordinary men cannot agree on simple subjects and questions. And they certainly cannot agree on important subjects either , such as: What is the character of God? What must a man do to find salvation? what is salvation? These are all questions on which there is little or no agreement even though men may all live in the same area at the same time.

    It is amazing, then, that there is such agreement in the Bible on such very important subjects when the writers were not from the same area and were not of the same language and were not of the same time of history.

    The Bible is in agreement that all men are sinners (Romans 3:23). It is in agreement that man cannot be saved by his good works (Galatians 2:16). Every religion other than Christianity and Judaism taught that a person was saved from sin only by doing good works. It is only in the Bible that good works are shown to be totally useless in the obtaining of salvation.

    Man is always trying to find a way to work out his salvation and make himself acceptable to God on the basis of works. The concept of works not being the way to find salvation is foreign to man. It came from God. It is taught throughout the Bible. There is unanimity on the matter.

    There is another very important subject in the Bible which shows how unique a book it is. It confirms that certainly the Bible must be a divine book and that it is not simply a book written by mere men without the guidance of God. The subject is fulfilled prophecy. There are literally hundreds of prophecies in the Bible and all of them have either been fulfilled or will be.

    There is not one prophecy in the Bible that has had its time for fulfillment go by without being fulfilled exactly. This is an entire topic in itself —one of the mathematical and probability wonders of the world!

    There is no other book in the world like the Bible. Such a different background of writers and language and history still produced a book that is a single unit without disagreement in its parts.

    This is the book that God has given to show mankind the way back to God. Any man who wants to find forgiveness of sins and peace with the Creator-God must come to Him through this book or not come at all. Only GOD could have written it.

  41. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    Anonymous.

    Here are some more answers to your questions Sir.

    10. How old is the oldest Greek manuscript? How can you tell the age of a manuscript?

    There are some manuscripts of portions of the New Testament that date back to within 100 years of the completion of the writing of the New Testament.

    These oldest manuscripts are incomplete and therefore include only small portions of the New Testament. As we come to more recent manuscripts, however, we find manuscripts that are much more complete.

    There are some manuscripts from the third century (200 years after the completion of the New Testament) that are much more complete. The parts of the New Testament that are missing from one manuscript will be found in others. Thus, it is possible to discover the entire New Testament as it was used in approximately the third century.

    The age of a manuscript may be ascertained with fair accuracy by comparing the general style of writing with the styles generally known at various stages of history.

    Manuscripts can also be dated by the type of ink that is used. A scientist can examine inks and tell exactly what kind they are. Some were made from soot, some from berries and some from other substances. Each was used at a different time of history.

    The type of paper or other material on which a manuscript is written can also be used for dating the writing. Writing materials were made from grass, trees and other living materials. These living materials have in them atoms of carbon which are taken into them from the soil as they grew. A very tiny percentage of these carbon atoms are of a special kind called “radio active.” They are different than normal carbon atoms. Very slowly these special atoms change back into normal atoms, and as they do so, they give off something like a tiny x-ray. By examining a piece of writing material with a very sensitive instrument for the presence of these special carbon atoms, scientists can tell with fair accuracy just when the tree or grass was cut to be made into paper.

    Also, there were various kinds of writing materials used at different times in history. Some things were written by pressing on damp clay with a small stick to make the letters. Some things were written on animal skins, some of paper made from reeds (papyrus), and some on paper made from trees.

    On what it has been written and in what particular time it was written is not difficult to know. These are just a few of the ways that a manuscript can be dated.

    11.How many manuscripts or portions thereof are in existence today?

    There are over five thousand manuscripts of various types of the Greek New Testament or portions thereof in existence today. If even one of the 5000 manuscripts uses a different letter in spelling a word a different order between two words, the scholars call that a variant (difference).
    .
    12.Do the variants effect the teaching of Scripture?

    Variants DO NOT affect the teaching of Scripture
    If you leave off such variants as are obviously unimportant, for instance one manuscript spelling a word differently than the others, you will find that the remaining variants affect less than one percent of the New Testament. Of those remaining variants, there are none that change any doctrine (teaching) of the New Testament. This is a remarkable degree of protection of the meaning of the originals

    13.When the Bible speaks on the subject of science, is it accurate?

    When the Bible speaks on the subject of science, it is VERY accurate. Examples of this is static electricity (Jer 10:13),that the earth is spherical ( Prov 8:27), the movement of planets ( Job 38:31,32), laws of evaporation and precipitation ( Eccl 1:6-7), circulation of the blood ( Eccl 12:6), quarantine for communicable diseases ( Lev 13:45-46).

  42. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Anonymous.

    Here are the answers to the rest of your very interesting and worthy questions. I hope that the answers help you, and are also of great interest to the silent readers on the forum.

    1.Who is the main character in the Bible?
    JESUS OFF COURSE

    2.What is the main theme of the Bible?
    The theme of the Bible is God’s working with mankind

    3.What was the first book to be written?

    The first book to be written was JOB.

    4.What happened to Israel when they disobeyed God?

    When the Jews sinned against God, God allowed them to be captured by the Assyrians (Israel) and the Babylonians ( Judah) as a punishment.

    5.What was the โ€œGreat Synagogueโ€? What was its purpose?
    According to tradition, “Great Synagogue” consisted of the leaders and priests of the Jews, who in 445 B.C., signed their names to an agreement to collect and preserve all the sacred writings that God had given up to that time.

    Besides that, they agreed to add to those writings the further writings that God would give in the future. Ezra was the first President of the Great Synagogue. Over the years that followed, Haggai and Malachi and others were also members.

    Over the years these godly men prayed and carefully preserved and collected the sacred writings. This work was completed in 300 B.C.. They included only those manuscripts which were clearly from God, which had been recognized by all the people as from God, which stated only what was clearly true and which taught only things clearly in keeping with the character of God.

    They gathered the writings from God given up to that time and put them in one book. this book is the Old Testament portion of the Holy Bible as we know it today.

    The Old Testament Scriptures were written in the Hebrew language except for a few chapters in Daniel and Ezra and one verse in Jeremiah which were in Aramaic.

    The members of the Great Synagogue put some of the books in a different order than we now use them. Also, they combined some of the books that we divide (1 and 2 Kings were just one book then), but they were exactly the same as the thirty-nine books we now include in the Old Testament.

    The purpose of the “Great Synagogue” for the leaders and priests of the Jews to collect and preserve all the sacred writings that God had given the Jews up to that time. Besides that, they agreed to add to those writings the further writings that God would give in the future.

    6.Explain how important the Greek language became after the completion of the work of the Great Synagogue.

    By the time the Great Synagogue had finished its work, the Persian Empire had fallen and had been replaced by the Greek Empire. Throughout this whole empire, the Greek Language was the one language that was commonly understood, Many of the Jews still remained scattered throughout the world. Not all of them had returned to Jerusalem.

    Though the Jews kept their own language, Hebrew, many of them were using it less and less. They were gradually forgetting Hebrew and replacing it with Greek.

    The Greek language is a very rich language. It is very precise and accurate. It is possible to say just what you want to say: more so than in many other languages. The spreading of the Greek Empire and the spreading of the Greek language prepared the way for the spread of the gospel. The Greek language was also very important because it was the language that God chose in which to have the New Testament written.

    7.What was the Septuagint? How long did it take to complete it?

    The Septuagint was the translation of the Old Testament into Greek done by approximately seventy scholars who went to Alexandria to work on this project.

    The Septuagint was then circulated among the Greek speaking Jews. It was widely circulated in Palestine in Jesusโ€™ day and in the time of the apostles-both Jesus and the apostles quoted from it.

    Translating the Old Testament into Greek took nearly 100 years to complete

    8.What are the Dead Sea Scrolls? What was the major portion of them about?

    The Dead Sea Scrolls refers to the apparently accidental find in 1947 by an Arab shepherd boy looking for some of his lost sheep of what turned out to have included among them genuine Biblical manuscripts written on rolls of thin leather antedating the oldest known Old Testament manuscripts by one thousand years, proving that God had provided for the preservation and the recovery of His written message, the Canon of the Old Testament.

    The area of Palestine where this took place was very near the Dead Sea, not too far from the Jordan River. The manuscripts had been well preserved since that part of Palestine is very dry and there was not sufficient moisture in the air to make these old manuscripts spoil.

    These manuscripts were finally obtained by scholars who carefully unrolled and studied them. They were found to be written in Hebrew and were very old. It was possible to discover that they were from about 200 years before Christ.

    Further search in nearby caves revealed hundreds more of these manuscripts included in which were quotations from every book of the Old Testament except for the book of Esther.

    Of some of the Old Testament books there were not only some complete copies, but sections from multiple manuscripts. Sections of fourteen manuscripts of Deuteronomy, twelve of Isaiah and ten of the Psalms were found in just one cave.

    Of the approximately 100 manuscripts of Old Testament portions, a number of them, if translated into Greek, would have read very much like the Septuagint. As they are, in Hebrew, many of them are like the Hebrew text which we use today.

    However. not all the writings in the Dead Sea Scrolls were words of scripture. Nearly three-fourths of them were about such things as the rules of the religious group who put the scrolls in the cave.

    Nearly three-fourths of the Dead Sea Scrolls were about such things as the rules of the religious group who put the scrolls in the cave.

    9.When did the Jewish scribes began to use vowel marks in their copies of the Scriptures? Why did they do that? What is the text they produced called?

    The Jewish scribes began to use vowel marks in their copies of the Scriptures about the year 500 A.D because about this time the Hebrew speaking people invented a way of adding to the written words some extra little marks that would tell the reader which vowel he was to use in that word.

    It was possible that a given set of consonants might mean several different things, depending on which vowels the reader supplied. When the vowel markings were invented, the Hebrew scholars immediately went to work to add all the vowel markings to the entire Old Testament so that there would be no confusion as to what any particular word had been in the original.

    The text that they produced is called the Masoretic Text and it is the text that is used to this very day in the study of the Old Testament.


  43. Anonymous issued a challenge to that ‘know-it-all’ to answer a few questions about the Bible; naturally, his ineptitude on such matters, which is so obvious, was confirmed by his silience; so GP dealt with it thoroughly and properly, as usual!


  44. @ Thanatos

    I think you believe that I have idiot marked across my forehead. GP asked the questions and then gave his answers. Very typical of the kind of nastiness you people get on with.

    I asked some questions too, which GP has avoided, so should I take your position and say: “naturally, his ineptitude on such matters, which is so obvious, was confirmed by his silence…?”


  45. @Thanatos

    GP answers are so full of inaccuracies that I could not get to the end reading that crap, especially when he get to the dead sea scrolls.

    It was held long ago that the dead sea scrolls is an attempt to compile the most important parts of the bible. Written in 5 maybe six parts, it comprises about 900 documents found in 11 caves. Not all of it is about the bible at all. As a matter of fact, the bible is more a confirmation of the parts that duplicate the bible, than the scrolls being any second or independent source.

    I really can’t understand where you guys going. Certainly there is nothing scientific about your inquiry; it is all politics and deception.


  46. @Rok, “I think you believe that I have ‘idiot’ marked across my forehead”

    You said it, man, it is far better to be a ‘fool’ quietly, than to open you mouth and have it confirmed!

  47. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Thenatos

    Below are the answers to some observations and some questions which were posed by emails over night.

    I hope that you find them useful.

    William Tyndale was right when he believed that a ploughboy with the Bible would know more of God than the learned ecclesiastic who ignored it.

    Jesus and the Apostles call upon a person to exercise an intelligent faith.

    Christianity is based upon undesputable facts.

    The Christian concept of a saving faith is a faith that establishes oneโ€™s relationship with Christ ( the object), and is diametically opposed to the average philosophical use of the term faith in the classroom today. One must reject the idea that โ€œ It doesnot matter what you belive, as long as you believe.

    John Montgomery says it would be dangerous error to imagine that the characteristics of an historical religion would be maintained if the Christ of the theologians were divorced from the Jesus of history.

    the NT writers record eyewitness testimony concerning Jesus, and can therefore be trusted to convey an accurate historical picture of him.
    The presuppositions of men are not so much historical bias, but, rather, philosophical prejudices.

    The strongest argument against historical skepticism is that the man who doubts the possibility of correct historical evidence and tradition cannot then accept his own evidence, judgement, combination and interpretation.

    Miller Burrows of Yale said โ€œ I am profoundly convinced that the historic revelation of God in Jesus of Nazareth must be the cornerstone of any faith that is really Christian. Any historical question about the real Jesus who lived in Palestine 19 centuries is therefore fundamentally important.โ€

    Robert Horn says that a person who denies Godโ€™s existence will not subscribe to belief in the Bible.

    The three (3) reasons the author gives for peopleโ€™s rejection of Christ areโ€:
    ignorance, often self imposed
    pride
    moral problems.

    With regard to archaelogical evidence and his findings, Gleuck said that in all of his investigations that he had never found one artifact of antiquity that contradicts any statement of the Word of God.

    eight (8) points that mark the Bible as a unique book are that it was written:
    Over a 1600 year span
    Over 60 generations
    By 40 plus authors from every walk of life
    In different places
    At different times
    During different moods
    On three continents
    In three languages

    The first divisions of the Bible were made in 586 BC.

    The Bible was first divided into chapters cerca 250 AD.

    Stephen Langton, a professor at the University of Paris and afterward the Archbishop of Canterbury, divided the Bible into modern chapter divisions

    The five (5) principles that we must examine when setting criteria for authenticity are:
    is it authoritative
    is it prophetic and written by a man of God
    is it authentic
    is it dynamic
    was it received, collected read and used by the people of God

    Ungerโ€™s Bible Dictionary give the following reasons for the exclusion of the Apocrypha from the Bible :
    1. “They abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and anachronisms.
    2. “They teach doctrines which are false and foster practices which are at variance with inspired Scripture.
    3. “They resort to literary types and display an artificiality of subject matter and styling out of keeping with inspired Scripture.

    “They lack the distinctive elements which give genuine Scripture their divine character, such as prophetic power and poetic and religious feeling.”

    Three Historical examples of their exclusion are:
    1. “Philo, Alexandrian Jewish philosopher (20 B.C.-A.D. 40), quoted the Old Testament prolifically and even recognized the threefold division, but he never quoted from the Apocrypha as inspired.
    2. “Josephus (A.D. 30-100), Jewish historian, explicity excludes the Apocrypha, numbering the books of the Old Testament as 22. Neither does he quote these books as Scripture.
    3. “Jesus and the New Testament writers never once quote the Apocrypha although there are hundreds of quotes and references to almost all of the canonical books of the Old Testament.
    4. “The Jewish scholars of Jamnia (A.D. 90) did not recognize the Apocrypha
    5. “No canon or council of the Christian church for the first four centuries recognized the Apocrypha as inspired.
    6. “Many of the great Fathers of the early church spoke out against the Apocrypha, for example, Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius.

    7. “Jerome (340-420), the great scholar and translator of the Vulgate, rejected the Apocrypha as part of the canon. He disputed across the Mediterranean with Augustine on this point. He at first refused even to translate the Apocryphal books into Latin, but later he made a hurried translation of a few of them. After his death, and literally “over his dead body,” the Apocryphal books were brought into his Latin Vulgate directly from the Old Latin Version.

    8. “Many Roman Catholic scholars through the Reformation period rejected the Apocrypha.
    9. “Luther and the Reformers rejected the canonicity of the Apocrypha.
    10. “Not until A.D. 1546, in a polemical action at the Counter Reformation Council of Trent, did the Apocryphal books receive full canonical status by the Roman Catholic Church.”

    Three (3) reasons for the need that arose to develop a New Testament Canon were:
    1 . A heretic, Marcion (ca. 140 A.D.), developed his own canon and began to propagate it. The church needed to offset his influence by determining what was the real canon of New Testament Scripture.
    2 Many Eastern churches were using books in services that were definitely spurious. It called for a decision concerning the canon.
    3. Edict of Diocletian (A.D. 303) declared the destruction of the sacred books of the Christians. Who wanted to die for just a religious book?


  48. Not to sidetrack the discussion but………

    I was talking to a friend about his reacurring dream, in this dream he was stabed, but he never felt it.

    Lately he was stabbed in real life, now he knows how it feels in real life, he feels the stabs in the dream as well.

    This got me thinking, could that be the reason no one dies in their sleep?, be cause you would have to experience it in real life?

    I believe death is like sleep, in that the spirit leaves the body, not only for the night but forever.
    If that thinking is correct then earth must have in a little heaven and a little hell also, (we all know sometimes things can be sweet and also sowa.)

    In other words

    Our spirit would have to experience heaven while in ‘body’ in order to know the feelings when it leaves the body.

    This is just a observation, i want to know if it has some merit.


  49. @ Thanatos

    “You said it, man, it is far better to be a ‘fool’ quietly, than to open you mouth and have it confirmed!”

    Tell that to GP.


  50. @ GP

    “With regard to archaelogical evidence and his findings, Gleuck said that in all of his investigations that he had never found one artifact of antiquity that contradicts any statement of the Word of God.”

    Let him tell you about one artifact that supports it.

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