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The Mark Of The Beast, The Coming Of The Anti-Christ,The Dead Sea Scrolls

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Mark of the Beast
Mark of the Beast

It is no secret that there is a constituency which dwells in the Barbados Underground who enjoys a robust religious debate. In recent times there has been rich discussion about the Jewish Talmud, The Promises of God and currently The Bible And The Qur’an, Brothers Kept Apart. This group is comprised of Atheists, Agnostics, Christians and  others, we even noticed the description Apathiest.

Surprisingly to the BU household the religious conversation has attracted a healthy following based on what we see from back here. We hope that we are not twisting any arms but there are some Christian events which require clarification.

  • The BU household wishes to ask our religious luminaries to explain how they perceive revelations linked to  the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls can potentially reshape religion as we know it.
  • Explain the Mark of the Beast and the much discussed the coming of the Anti-Christ.

Attached is a Power Point Presentation which has been in circulation for sometime which some believe is the Mark of the Beast exposed!

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820 responses to “The Mark Of The Beast, The Coming Of The Anti-Christ,The Dead Sea Scrolls”

  1. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    Like the elusive ark of the covenant.

  2. Thanatos Avatar
    Thanatos

    GP runs circles around you, like a Tiger playing with a starve-out rat; what he has studied, and forgotten, you ain’t begin to learn yet!

  3. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Some more notes on the Dead Sea Scrolls from Josh McDowell I think.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls is the name given to over eight hundred ancient Jewish manuscripts recovered from eleven caves along the northwest shore of the Dead Sea.

    The first cave, containing seven scrolls, was discovered accidentally in early 1947 by a young Bedouin shepherd.

    Between 1952 and 1956 ten more caves containing manuscripts and related material were found. Scholars have dated these manuscripts from the third century b.c. to the first century a.d.

    Most were not found intact; rather, scholars have had to piece together, and thereby attempt to understand, thousands of fragments. This process has been very tedious and slow; hence, many fragments remain unpublished.

    Near the caves in which the scrolls were discovered lies an archaeological site known as Khirbet Qumran.

    Archaeologists excavated the ruins between 1951 and 1956 and determined that the site was inhabited by a community of Jews from the middle of the second century b.c. to a.d. 68. These Jews are thought to be responsible for hiding the scrolls in the caves for several reasons.

    Cave 4, which contained more than five hundred of the eight hundred manuscripts, is literally a stone’s throw from the site. Second, the manuscripts were copied during the same period of time that the settlement was occupied.

    Third, pottery found in the ruins matches pottery found in the caves. Fourth, writing found on pottery in the ruins matches that found on pottery in several of the caves.

    Finally, the character of the ruins provides the logical setting for the ritual washings, sacred meal, and manuscript copying reflected in the scrolls.

    The Qumran inhabitants probably hid the scrolls in the caves in anticipation of the advance of the Roman forces.

    Most scholars identify this community as a group of Essenes, a monastic sect of Jews described by the ancient writers Josephus, Philo, and Pliny the Elder.

    The scrolls consist of four types of material. First, there are copies of Old Testament books. Only Esther is missing among the scrolls. Second, there are apocryphal books. Some, such as Tobit and Jubilees, were known prior to the discovery of the scrolls.

    Many others, such as the Genesis Apocryphon and the Testament of Amram, were not. Third, there are books that exhibit the distinctive doctrines and practices of the sect.

    These consist primarily of rules, poetical and liturgical books, and books of biblical interpretation. Finally, there are books that do not fit into any particular category, such as the Copper Scroll.

    Since their discovery the Dead Sea Scrolls have aroused intense controversy. Many have made sensationalistic claims about alleged connections between the scrolls and Christianity.

    The long delay in publishing all of the fragments has only fueled the controversy, leading to accusations of a scholarly and/or ecclesiastical conspiracy to suppress fragments that would be detrimental to Christianity and/or Judaism.

    Such allegations are surely false. Indeed, most conjectures of any direct link between the scrolls and early Christianity (e.g., that Jesus and/or John the Baptist were at one time a part of the Qumran community) have little support.

    On the other hand, the scrolls serve as important background material for the study of the New Testament and contain numerous verbal and conceptual parallels with New Testament books, especially the Gospel of John.

    Yet such parallels should not overshadow the differences between a monastic sect of Jews obeying the teachings of a dead Teacher and a missionary-minded movement of Jews and Gentiles proclaiming the death and resurrection of a living Lord.

    The problem the scholars had before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls was whether the Massoretic Hebrew text descended from a text drawn up about AD 100 faithfully represent the Hebrew text as originally written by the authors of the OT books.

    There was a need to know How accurate are our current copies from the text of the first century, and whether we can trust the current text seeing that it has been copied over so many times.

    The finding of the dead sea scrolls has helped solve some of these issues.

  4. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    INTERESTING & THOUGHT PROVOKING QUOTES ON THE RELIABILITY OF THE BIBLE

    1- Concerning Luke’s ability as a historian, Ramsay said “ Luke is a historian of the first rank, not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy; he is possessed of the true historic sense; he fixes his mind on the idea and plan that rules in the evolution of history and proportions the scale of his treatment to the importance of each incident. He seizes the important and critical events and shows their true nature at greater length, while he touches lightly or omits entirely much that was valueless for his purpose. He should be placed with the very greatest historians.

    2- According to Gerstang, the walls of Jericho fell outwards so completely that the attackers could clamber up and over their ruins into the city.

    3- Burrows states that The excessive skepticism of many liberal theologians stems not from a careful evaluation of the available data but from an enormous predisposition against the supernatural.”

    4- Ignatius gave credence to the Scriptures by the way he based his faith on the accuracy of the Bible, for he had ample material and witness to discover scriptural trustworthiness.

    5- With reference to the ground upon which the Gospels stood, Irenaeus wrote that “ So firm is the ground upon which the Gospels rest, that the very heretics themselves bear witness to them, and starting from these documents, each one of them endeavours to establish his own particular doctrine.

    6- Robert Horn says that “Unsolved problems are not of necessity errors.”

    7-Gleuck said that we can emphatically say that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the NT after AD 80.

    8 J. Anderson says the greatest utility of the early Targums is that they vindicate the genuineness of the Hebrew text, by proving that it was the same at the period the Targums were made, as it exists among us at the present day.

    9 Warfield boldly states that the facts show that the great majority of the New Testament has been transmitted to us with no , or next to no, variation and even in the most corrupt form in which it has ever appeared , the real text of the sacred writers is competently exact, nor is one article or moral precept either perverted or lost.

    10- There is plenty objective textual evidence available to correct an obvious mistake. This is why we believe the Bible as is, is accurate. (McDowell)

  5. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Quotations and Observations on the Reliability of The Old Testament.

    Robert Dick Wilson’s brilliant observations take the veracity and truthworthiness of Scriptures back to Old Testament times:

    “In 144 cases of transliteration from Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian and Moabite into Hebrew and in 40 cases of the opposite, or 184 in all, the evidence shows that for 2300 to 3900 years the text of proper names in the Hebrew Bible has been transmitted with the most MINUTE accuracy. That the original scribes should have written them with such close conformity to correct philological principles is a wonderful proof of their thorough care and scholarship; further, that the Hebrew text should have been transmitted by copyists through so many centuries is a phenomenon unequaled in the history of literature.”

    Wilson adds: “There are about forty Kings living from 2000 B.C to 400 B.C. Each appears in chronological order…with reference to the kings of the same country and with respect to the kings of other countries…no stronger evidence for the substantial accuracy of the Old Testament records could possibly be imagined, than this collection of kings. Mathematically, it is one chance in 750,000,000,000,000,000, 000, 000, that this accuracy is mere circumstance.”

    William Green concludes that “It may saftly be said that NO other work of antiquity has been so accurately transmitted.”

    Concerning the accuracy of the transmission of the Hebrew text, Atkinson, who was Under-Librarian of the library at Cambridge University, says it is, “little short of miraculous.”

    Flavius Josephus, the Jewish historian, writes:

    “We have given practical proof of our reverence for our own Scriptures. For, although such long ages have passed, no one has ventured either to add, or to remove, or alter a syllable; and it is an instinct with every Jew, from the day of his birth, to regard them as the decrees of God, to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfuly to die for them.”

    The Old Testament is a record of God’s promises to patriarchs, kings, prophets, Israel, lowly saints, and to the world at large.

    Among the many striking evidences of the Bible being God’s inspired, infallible Word are:

    1. The remarkable sublimity, excellency and reasonableness of the great doctrines it teaches.

    2. The stength and efficiency of those sanctions, with which it enforces its manifold precepts.

    3. The wisdom, holiness and perfection of the rules of life it lays down for the sons of men.

    4. The awesomeness of its threatenings, which act as a powerful restraint against irregular behaviour.

    5. The promises likewise testify to Scripture as a divine original: and they are calculated to intensify our faith and confidence in God; and also provide an incentive and encouragement to a life of piety and universal holiness.

    Professor M. Montiero-Williams, former Boden professor of Sanskrit, spent 42 years studying Eastern books and said in comparing them with the Bible:

    “Pile them, if you will, on the left side of your study table; but place your Holy Bible on the right side – all by itself, all alone – with a wide gap between them. For…there is a gulf between it and the s0-called sacred books of the East, which severs the one from the other utterly, hopelessly, and forever…a veritable gulf which cannot be bridged over by any science of religious thought.”

  6. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    MORE INTERESTING QUOTATIONS FOR INTERESTED BELIEVERS FROM GREAT SCHOLARS OF THE PAST

    Only Christianity claims an empty tomb for its founder.
    The Bible is very clear that prophecy is a sign of God’s power and glory and presents the supernatural nature of his word.

    1- After more than 700 hours of investigating the resurrection, I have found that the resurrection of Jesus is either one of the most wicked, vicious, heartless hoaxes ever foisted upon the minds of men, or it is the most fantastic fact of history. (McDowell)

    2- Regarding the skepticism over the existence of Edom, Henry Morris explains that Edom and the Edomites are mentioned time and again in the Bible , but were completely forgotten in secular history until the 19th century when references to them were found in Egyptian and Assyrian monuments. Finally the well preserved remains of Petra the capital city were discovered causing a routing of the critics who had stated that Edom was legendary.

    3-Strabo tells us that around the birth of Christ the city of Petra was prosperous and the terminus of one of the great commercial routes of Asia. It was the market of the Arabians for their spice and frankincense.

    4- The location of ancient Gaza has been found buried under sand dunes as predicted in the prophesy that said “Baldness shall come on Gaza.”

    5- With regard to the dating of the book of Ezekiel, Joseph P. Free said “ The unusual system of dating in the book of Ezekiel is not an evidence of its lack of authenticity, but, in the light of the archaeological evidence proves its authenticity in a most striking way.

    6 According to Simon Greenleaf, Christianity requires of men that they would be consistent with themselves; that they would treat its evidences as they treat the evidence of other things; and that they would try and judge its actors and witnesses, as they deal with their fellow men, when testifying to human affairs and actions, in human tribunals.

    7 Dr A C Ivy says that to deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ on the basis of what biology knows is to manifest an unscientific attitude according to the philosophy of the true scientific attitude.

    8- Ignatius point out “The substance of the gospel is Jesus Christ, and the Christian religion consists in faith in Him and love towards Him, in his passion and ressurrection……….Christians are to be fully convinced of the birth and passion and resurrection.

    9 Bernard Ramm taught that unbelief must deny all the testimony of the fathers and must assume that these men either did not have the motivation or the historical standards to really investigate the resurrection of Christ.

    10 According to B B Warfield, Christ staked his entire claim upon his resurrection—He pointed to this sign as his single and sufficient credential. Jesus not only predicted his resurrection, but also emphasized that His rising would be a sign or proof to authenticate His Messiahship.

    11- Wilbur Smith says about the details we know concerning the last hours of Christ’s life on earth that we know more about the details of the hours immediately before and the actual death of Jesus than we know about the death of any other man in all the ancient world.

    NOTE THAT Josephus make reference to Jesus in Antiquities 18.3.3.

    12 Bernard Ramm points out that the Greek words that Luke used in Acts to relate the appearances of Christ are an expression indicating the strongest type of legal evidence.

    It is noteworthy that only did Luke gain the facts for Acts from eyewitnesses, but that he was also a participator in some of the events he narrates—the “we” sections.

    12 Ambrose Fleming asserted that there were NO items in the gospels that would cause a man of science to have problems with miracles?

    13 “ To me Christianity stands or falls with the resurrection. (Theodus Harnack)

    14- Wilbur Smith said that the Resurrection harmonises all the other facts of Jesus’history. He further said that the fact of the resurrection, which Jesus had exactly predicted caused him to believe that everything else that Jesus said must also be true.

  7. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    “1- After more than 700 hours of investigating the resurrection, I have found that the resurrection of Jesus is either one of the most wicked, vicious, heartless hoaxes ever foisted upon the minds of men, or it is the most fantastic fact of history. (McDowell)”

    LOL! Just what we were telling you all along because it surely ain’t the latter.

  8. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    “NOTE THAT Josephus make reference to Jesus in Antiquities 18.3.3. ”

    All people of the faith. Still sticking to the bible for your authority and declarations of faith made by men.

    In all of this there is no evidence to corroborate any of it. Note the lack of reference to official documents. Note that these are all assertions by men and not proof of anything.

    “1- After more than 700 hours of investigating the resurrection, I have found that the resurrection of Jesus is either one of the most wicked, vicious, heartless hoaxes ever foisted upon the minds of men, or it is the most fantastic fact of history. (McDowell)”

    see that after 700 hours of investigating your McDowell still could not come with a definitive or absolute position. He still saying that it is either a hoax or a fact. He can’t call it. Even if he decides that it is not a hoax, he still giving an opinion since there is no proof and his giving an opinion that it is a fact is still lined with doubt. He can’t call it.

    What I will tell you is that if there was a semblance of truth in the bible, just reading you guys would turn me off. Too wrong and strong.

  9. Sargeant Avatar
    Sargeant

    GP

    I follow this thread only intermittently but since you mentioned the Dead Sea Scrolls I have to inform you that they will be on display at the ROM in Toronto for six months beginning June 27th,2009.

    Anyone who wants to visit should plan theirs for after July 25th, hopefully the Municipal workers strike should be over and they will be able to visit city controlled exhibits.

    http://on3.rtrk.ca/?scid=27005&kw=3723912:3

    http://www.thestar.com/article/655930

  10. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    SOME NOTES ON THE RESURRECTION, HOAX OR HISTORY?

    The three (3) basic credentials that Jesus provides us are:
    The impact of His life upon history.
    Fulfilled prophecy in his life.
    His resurrection

    Four (4) ways in which the resurrection is propounded are :
    As an explanation of Jesus’ death
    Prophetically anticipated as the Messianic and Kingly position of Jesus of Nazareth
    Apostolically witnessed
    Certifying the Messianic and Kingly position of Jesus of Nazareth

    Christ staked his entire claim upon his resurrection—He pointed to this sign as his single and sufficient credential.

    Jesus not only predicted his resurrection, but also emphasized that His rising would be a sign or proof to authenticate His Messiahship.

    After Jesus died, Pilate required certification of Christ’s death. Do you think that the soldiers who gave this certification knew a dead man when they saw one?

    When the left side is pierced by a large knife or sword after death there may be:
    No flow of any kind except a slight trickling of blood.
    A copious flow of blood
    A flow of pericardial fluid( called water here) and a few drops of blood

    In discussing the records of Jesus’ entombment in the sepulcher of Joseph of Arimathea, Wilbur Smith says that: “We know more about the burial of the Lord Jesus than we know of the burial of any single character in all of ancient history. We know infinitely more about His burial than we do the burial of any Old Testament character, of any king of Babylon, Pharaoh of Egypt, any philosopher of Greece, or triumphant Caesar. We know who took His body from the cross; we know something of the wrapping of the body in spices, and burial clothes; we know the very tomb in which this body was placed, the name of the man who owned it, Joseph, of a town known as Arimathaea. We know even where this tomb was located, in a garden nigh to the place where He was crucified, outside the city walls. We have four records of this burial of our Lord, all of them in amazing agreement, the record of Matthew, a disciple of Christ who was there when Jesus was crucified; the record of Mark which some say was written within ten years of our Lord’s ascension; the record of Luke, a companion of the apostle Paul, and a great historian; and the record of John, who was the last to leave the cross, and, with Peter, the first of the Twelve on Easter to behold the empty tomb.”

    The Jews called the stone that covered a tomb Gloal. With regard to the weight of the stone that it took several men to move it. The three women who went to the tomb couldn’t have moved the stone because it was too large for them to move. The stone at Jesus’ tomb was “ the one silent and infallible witness in the whole episode.”

    According to A. T. Robertson, the method of sealing Jesus’ tomb was probably by a cord stretched across the stone at Jesus’ tomb and sealed at each end.

    The motive of Annas and Caiaphas for asking that Pilate place a guard at the tomb was the fear that the friends of Jesus might come secretly at night and steal the body in order to make it appear that a resurrection had taken place.

    It is generally conceded that Matthew was speaking of Roman soldiers when discussing the guard.
    FOUR Roman soldiers normally comprised a guard. The punishment for quitting a post while on guard for Roman soldiers was death

    Whereas there are some today who do not believe in the resurrection of Christ, Christ’s followers were assured that he had actually risen from the dead by his post resurrection appearances to them

    When critics claim that the disciples stole the body of Christ this assumes the admission by the enemies of Christianity that the grave was empty- an admission which is enough to show that the evidence for the empty grave was too notorious to be denied.

    What is clear is that the previously cowardly disciples “changed” because of what they saw at the empty tomb

    Regarding the opening of a door that had been officially sealed, such as the tomb, “the door could not be opened, without breaking the seal; which was a crime against the authority of the proprietor of the seal.

    With regard to the Apostle Paul and the other disciples Bernard Ramm said “ If there was no resurrection it must be admitted by radical critics that Paul decieved the apostles of an actual appearance of Christ to him, and they in turn deceived Paul about the appearances of a risen Christ to them.

    With reference to the silence of the Jews about Jesus resurrection we can only say that “ The silence of the Jews is as significant as the speech of the Christians.

    Professor Janes Denney says that “ the empty grave is not the product of a naive apologetic spirit, but a spirit not content with the evidence for the resurrection contained in the fact that the Lord had appeared to his own and had quickened them unto new victorious life—–it is an original, independent and unmotivated part of the apostolic testimony.

    Paul Little claims the reason for the Christian’s being able to turn the world “upside down” was the resurrection.

    Christians meet for worship on the first day of the week in acknowledgment of the resurrection.

    With respect to the possibilities of the swoon theory being a valid option David Friedrich Strauss says : “it is impossible that a being who had stolen half-dead out of the sepulchre, who crept about weak and ill, wanting medical treatment, who required bandaging, strengthening and indulgence, and who still at last yielded to his sufferings, could have given to the disciples the impression that he was a Conqueror over death and the grave, the Prince of Life, an impression which lay at the bottom of their future ministry. Such a resuscitation could only have weakened the impression which he had made upon them in life and in death, at the most could only have given it an elegiac voice, but could by no possibility have changed their sorrow into enthusiasm, have elevated their reverence into worship.”

    Professor Day, discussing the swoon theory, says “a long walk, followed by the appearance to the disciples at Jerusalem, is inconceivable in the case of one recovered from a swoon caused by wounds and exhaustion.

    According to Professor Day, if we accept the swoon theory, we must eliminate from the Gospels and Acts the whole of the Ascension narrative and to account for the sudden cessation of Christ’s appearances by the supposition that he withdrew Himself from them completely, to live and die in absolute seclusion , leaving them with a whole series of false impressions concerning His Own Person, and their mission from Him to the world.

    According to Professor Kevan, the empty tomb causes us to conclude that the power that removed the body of the Savior from the tomb must therefore have been divine.

    With regard to the women who came to the tomb John Chrysostom wrote “ They considered that no man could have taken him when so many soldiers were sitting by Him unless he raised up himself.

    A.A. Bruce says of the Roman guard that they were perfectly aware that they had not fallen asleep at their post and that no theft had taken place. The lie for which the priests paid so much money is suicidal; one half destroys the other. Sleeping sentinels could not know what happened, could they? In any case, guards who fell asleep while on duty were put to death .

    In discussing the theory that robbers stole the body of Christ, Merrill Tenney makes the valid point that “ no robbers would ever have rewound the wrappings in their original shape, for there would have been no time to do so. We know too with regard to the grave clothes Christ wore that “ the myrrh put in the grave clothes adhered so closely to the body that it could not easily be removed”

    According to John F. Whithworth, the disciples did not seem to understand that Jesus was to rise the third day as an important aspect of his ministry on earth. .

    J N. D. Anderson notes that if Pilate had the body moved to another place, that it seems incredible that he would not have informed the chief priests when they were so upset.

    Stott in commenting on what type of resurrections would have been enough to cause suspicion of the resurrection appearance accounts opines “ “If the appearances had all taken place in one or particularly sacred places, which had been hallowed by memories of Jesus and if their mood had been expectant then’, our suspicions might well be aroused.”

    He then adds “If we had only the story of the appearances in the upper room, we should have cause to doubt and question. If the eleven had been gathered in that special place where Jesus had spent with them some of his last earthly hours, and they had kept his place vacant and were sentimentalizing over the magic days of the past and had remembered his promises to return, and had begun to wonder if he might return and to hope that he would, until the ardour of their expectation was consummated by his sudden appearance, we might indeed fear the they had been mocked by a cruel delusion.”

    E. H. Day wrote regarding the hallucination theory that “ we may recognize the slowness with which the disciples arrive at a conviction to which only the inexorable logic of facts led them.
    He then continued by saying “The first appearance of the Lord found the various disciples in very various mental attitudes, but the states of expectancy, anticipation, or preparedness to see Him are conspicuously absent from the category.”
    And that ” . . . the faith of all had been shaken by the catastrophe of the shameful death, a death recalling so vividly the word of the Jewish Law, ‘He that is hanged’ is accursed of God’ (Deut. xxi. 23). The theory of subjective visions might seem a plausible one if there had been among the disciples a refusal to believe the worst. But the hopes of the disciples were so far shattered that recovery was very slow.” Day is basically saying that the psychological features of hallucination were not exhibited by the disciples.

    Regarding the gullibility and susceptibility of the disciples John Stott wrote “ The disciples were not gullible but rather cautious, sceptical and slow of heart to believe. They were not susceptible to hallucinations, nor would strange visions have satisfied them. Their faith was grounded upon the hard facts of verifiable experience.

    If it is true that the women went to the wrong tomb, the members of the Sanhedrin needed only to show that Jesus’ body was in the “right tomb” to stop the resurrection stories.

  11. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Thanks Sargeant

  12. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    “After Jesus died, Pilate required certification of Christ’s death. Do you think that the soldiers who gave this certification knew a dead man when they saw one? ”

    Please direct us to a copy of this record from a Roman official. It should be in their records, not so? Please procure a copy.

    Secondly, who was Pilate? Where in the Roman records is he and what was his position in the Roman Government?

  13. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Josh McDowell, was an avowed atheist, who set about 40 odd years ago to prove the Bible nonsense; however, he had something that is sadly lacking in many people, intellectual honesty; when he then started his detailed research, he was simply amazed that every step he took, in his search for the truth, that the incredible amount of evidence, historical, legal, logical, could not be refuted, McDowell had a choice to make, either/or, outright denial of the facts and evidence, overwhelmingly supporting the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, or be intellectually honest and concur; this he did in ‘faith’ not blind faith, but, reasonable, objective, rational faith.

    To say therefore, that McDowell has not reached a final conclusion on the Resurrection, History or Hoax, is to be deluded concerning this man’s amazing ministry over the last 40 years, since 1964 Josh has served as a travelling representative with Campas Crusade for Christ International. Millions of students and professors on over 500 campuses in 53 countries have been enlightened, encouraged, helped and challenged by the inspired witness of Josh McDowell.

    McDowell writes:

    “I personally have never heard a single individual – who has honestly considered the evidence deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Saviour of men. The evidence confirming the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ is overwhelmingly conclusive to any honest, objective seeker after truth. However, not all – not even the majority – of those to whome I have spoken have accepted Him as their Saviour and Lord. This is not because they were ‘unable’ to believe, (but) they were simply ‘unwilling’ to believe. Other well known atheists including Aldous Huxley and Bertrand Russell, have refused to come to intellectual grips with the basic historical facts concerning the birth, life, teachings, miracles, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. Those who have, such as C.S. Lewis and C.E. M. Joads, have found the evidence so convincing that they have accepted the verdict that Jesus Christ truly is who He claimed to be , and who others have believed Him to be, the Son of God and their own Saviour and Lord.” (EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT, Historical Evidences For the Christian Faith, Volume I, Forward).

    The distinguished archaeologist, Professor Albright, begins his classic essay, ‘The Biblical Period’:

    “Hebrew national tradition excels all others in its clear picture of tribal and family origins. In Egypt and Babylonia, in Assyria and Phoenicia, in Greece and Rome, we look in vain for anything comparable. There is nothing like it in the tradition of the Germanic peoples. Neither India nor China can produce anything similar, since their earliest historical memories are literary deposits of distorted dynastic tradition, with no trace of the hersman or peasent behind the demigod or king with whom their records begin. Neither in the oldest Indic historical writings (the Puranas) nor in the earliest Greek historians is there a hint of the fact that both Indo-Aryans and Hellenes were once nomads who immigrated into their later abodes from the north. The Assyrians, to be sure, remembered vaguely that their earliest rulers, whose names they recalled without any details about their deed, were tent dwellers, but whence they came had long been forgotten.”

    The Table of Nations:

    “The table of Nations” in Genesis 10 is an astonishingly accurate historical account. According to Albright:”

    “It stands absolutely alone in ancient literature without a remote parallel even among the Greeks…’The Table of Nations’ remains an astonishingly accurate document…(It) shows such remarkable ‘modern understanding of the ethnic and linguistic situation in the modern world, in spite of all its complexity, that scholars never fail to be impressed with the author’s knowledge of the subject.”

    The factual info that GP and myself are posting, is only scratching the surface of the amazing collection of data, compiled over long periods of time, by a wide range of scholars from many distinct disciplines, confirming the veracity and trustrworthiness of the historic documents of both the Old and New Testaments, that have the ‘Seal’ of Almighty God, whose Word it is, unparalelled with any other ancient document.

    Facts are stubborn things, and only the stubborn refuse to accept them, to their ultimate demise!

  14. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Re The FACTUAL info that GP and myself are posting, is only scratching the surface of the amazing collection of DATA, COMPILED OVER LONG PERIODS OF TIME, BY A WIDE RANGE OF SCHOLARS from MANY distinct DISCIPLINES,

    Indeed, REAL SCHOLARS tend to refer to the works of OTHER REAL SCHOLARS, rather than trying to impress with thier feeble flawed intellects.

    How can one be a teacher, having never himself learned?

    How can people know without good teachers?

    Zoe do you think that the guys at Dallas Theological Seminary like Constable or Henderson answer silly little questions in class that are not worthy of being asked in Sunday School?

    Anyway we have given simple and factual information about the dead sea scrolls, and interesting thoughts about the mark of the beast, in addition to good information about manuscripts.

    We have also given some basics in understanding how John’s gospel differs from the synoptic gospels, and why it must be mastered, and its time line used to facilitate an understanding of the synoptic gospels.

    It remains now to exegete the final chapters of Daniel, the Olivet discourse (which is the key to understanding all prophecy of the end times) and the chapters in Revelation about the rise of antichrist, as we systematically develop a Systematic Theology of this topic.

    We thank overseas readers and other silent readers for thier emails of encouragement. Feel free to send your comments and questions to lswiltshire@hotmail.com.

  15. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Importance of the Resurrection of Christ.

    All but four of the major world religions are based on mere philosophical propositions. Of the four that are based on personalities rather than a philosphical system, only Christianity claims an empty tomb for its founder. Abraham, the father of Judaism, died about 1900 B.C., but no resurrection was ever claimed for him.

    If it be asked how the Resurrection of Christ is a proof of His being the Son of God, it may be answered, first, because He rose by His own power. He had power to lay down His life, and He had power to take it again, (John 10:18). This is entirely consistant with the facts taught in so many other passages, that He was raised by the power of the Father, because what the Father does, the Son does likewise; creation, and all other external works, are ascribed to the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. But, in the second place, as Christ had openly declared Himself to be the Son of God, His rising from the dead was the ‘Seal’ of God to the truth of that declaration. Had He continued under the power of death, God would thereby have disallowed His claim to be His Son; but as He raised Him from the dead, He publicly acknowledged Him; saying, “Thou art My Son, this day have I declared Thee such.”

    Also, Peter’s first sermon on the historic day of Pentecost, one of the original ‘eyewitnesses’ to the fact, is wholy and entirely founded on the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, without which he nor any of the other disciples would have being ’empowered’ by the Holy Spirit, as promised by Jesus, to so powerfully proclaim and declare the reality of this fact, and their utterly transformed lives, bearing witness to this truth.

    However, not merely is the Resurrection its principle theme, but if that doctrine were removed, there would be no doctrine left. For the Resurrection is propounded as being:

    1) The explanation of Jesus’ death.

    2) Prophetically anticipated as the Messianic experience and reality.

    3) Apostolically witnessed.

    4) The cause of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and thus accounting for the spiritual phenomena, otherwise inexplicable

    5) Certifying the Messianic and Kingly position of Jesus of Nazareth

    Thus, the whole series of arguments and conclusions, depends entirely upon the Resurrection. Without the Resurrection the Messianic and Kingly position of the Lord Jesus Christ, could not be established. Without it, the new outpouring of the Holy Spirit, would continue a mystery unexplained. Without the Resurrection, and subsequent Ascension of Christ, there simply would have been no substance whatsoever in any apostolic witness, and it would have died a natural death.

    The very birth that day of Pentecost, of the empowered disciples, could never have happened without the Resurrection of Jesus, and its growing power and reality to transform the lives of those who come and receive by ‘faith, reasonable, living, faith, the imputed power of Christ to ‘justify’ anyone, thus empowered by the Holy Spirit, HAS NEVER ceased from that moment in history, 2000 years ago, right up to this present moment, growing all over the world, with mighty power and witness, to the Resurrected, Ascended Lord of Lords, and King of Kings, the Son of God, seated at His Father’s right hand, gloriously fulfilling all that He said would happen, if He be lifted up, Crucified for our Sins, and majestically Resurrected for our Justification; and no demon from the pit of Hell, can prevent or stop the ‘Church’ that He said He would build, as the gates of Hell CANNOT prevail against it!

  16. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    The Resurrection of Christ has always been catagorically the central tenet of the Church.

    From the first day of its divinely bestowed LIFE, the Christian church has unitedly borne testimony to its faith in the Resurrection of Christ. It is one of the great fundamental doctrines and convictions of the church (Not Dogma) doctrine, and so penetrates the literature of the New Testament, that if you lifted out every passage in which a reference is made to the Resurrection, you would have a collection of writings so mutilated that what remained could not be understood. The Resurrection entered intimately into the life of te earliest Christians, for without it, there would be no transformation and power.

    The fact of it appears ojn their tombs, and in the drawings found on the walls of the catacombs; it entered deeply into the Christian hymnology; it became one of the most vital themes of the great apologetic writings of the first four centuries; it was the theme constantly dwelt upon in the preaching of the ante- Nicene and post-Nicene period. It entered at one into the creedal formulae of the church; it is our Apostles’ Creed; it is in all the great creeds that followed.

    All evidence of the New Testament goes to show that the burden of the good news or Gospel was not ‘Follow this Teacher and do your best,’ but, “Jesus and His Resurrection,’ It stands as the core of the Gospe.

    As Wilbur M. Smith, noted scholar and teacher, so aptly says:

    “No weapon has ever been forged, and…none ever will be, to destroy rational confidence in the historical records of this epochal and predicted event. The Resurrection of Christ is the veru citadel of the Christian faith. This doctrine that turned the world upside down in the first century, that lifted Christianity preeminently above Judaism and the pagan religions of the Mediteranean world. If this goes, so must almost everything else that is vital and unique in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    But, He IS risen, the witness and testimony of which, sounds throughout the world, in the lives of multitudes, in every country, that we are living proof to His Glorious Resurrection, without which, we would not have His Power to so proclaim and declare.

    This IS NOT religion, NO, this is the power of a personal relationship, with Him, who rose from the dead on the third day!

  17. Ready-Done Avatar
    Ready-Done

    Why do you say there are righteous people who don’t believe in Christ? Doesn’t the Bible say, “There is none righteous, no, not one”?

    In comparison with the righteousness of the Eternal God, there is no one who measures up. However, God makes a distinction between those people who daily live to do what is right according to their consciences and those who give their consciences little or no heed. He calls the first group righteous and has a place prepared for them in eternity (Matthew 25:34-40). Those who refuse to do what they know to be right are what He calls wicked and they too have a place prepared for them in eternity (Matthew 25:41-46).

    People the Bible calls righteous because of their deeds include Abel (1 John 3:12), Noah (Genesis 6:9; 7:1), Lot (1 Peter 2:7-8), Job (Job 1:1,8), and Cornelius (Acts 10:22,34,35). None of these men were of the “seed of Abraham,” or made the sin offerings required by the Law of Moses, or had entered the New Covenant by the blood of Messiah.

  18. Ready-Done Avatar
    Ready-Done

    http://www.twelvetribes.com/faq/beliefs.html

  19. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Ready-Done, You are a bit confused regarding “People the Bible calls righteous because of their ‘deeds”

    Let us go back to the beginning of Hebrews chapter 11.

    “Now FAITH (not deeds) is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (v.1).

    The point here is ‘Faith’ not good works or ‘deeds’ yes, works and deeds follow ‘FAITH’ for it is ones faith in God’s promises, that then produce goods works, deeds, not the other way around.

    This is why Hebrews stresses ‘…Faith is the ‘substance’ of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT seen.” (v.1)

    Here a description is provided, not a definition of how ‘faith’ works. Faith is established conviction concerning things unseen and settled expectation of future reward.

    The Greek word for ‘substance’ literally means ‘a standing under’ ‘ and was used in the technical sense of “title deed.” The root idea is that of standing under the claim to the property to support the validity, Therefore, ‘Faith’ is the title deed ‘…of things hoped for” (v.1b).

    Hebrews chaper 11, refers to the ‘elders’ who were Old Testament saints (v.2) many of whom are mentioned in this chapter. They obtained a good report, NOT because of achievements, personal holiness, or passive acceptance of divine promises, BUT, by an active certitude expressed IN obedience, persistence, and sacrifice.

    Faith at the Dawn of History.

    Listen carfully and read:

    “By FAITH Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, (and) through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts, and through it being dead still speaks.” ( v.4).

    Though it is not explicitely stated in the Bible, at this point, obviously, God had communicated to Cain and Abel what kind of sacrifice would be acceptable to Him; Abel responded by ‘Faith’ Cain obviously did not; Abel’s Faith response in obedience to God, was counted for ‘Righteousness’ not that he was righteous in his own way, but God now counted him as ‘righteous’ because of his ‘Faith.’

    Notice in the chronological or historical order in which these Old Testament elders lived, that Abel’s ‘Faith’ is put first, not merely because he lived before the others, but because he ‘believed’ God as to the first great fundamental ‘truth’ that is, ‘Faith’ that comes before all others; Peace with God; access to God; worship of God; and all this through the blood of an accepted substitute, which Abel offered to God, which prefigured the ultimate sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews then goes on to mention Enoch (v. 5), Noah (v. 7), Abraham (v. 8), Sarah (v.11), Isaac (v. 20), Joseph (v. 22), Moses (v 23), and others, BUT, notice that in each and every reference to these Old Testament elders, ‘By FAITH’ not works or deeds, but ‘Faith’ first preceeds all and everything else that they did. Why is this so?

    “But without FAITH it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must BELIEVE that He IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

    The Greek word for Faith, referring to these Old Testament saints, is ‘Pistis’ ‘To win over, persuade. Faith. Subjectively meaning firm persuasion, conviction, belief in truth, veracity, reality of faithfulness. Objectively meaning that which is believed, doctrine, the received articles of faith.

    From the very beginning with Abel, right through the Old Testament, to the end of all things in the New Testament, Almighty God, has always, ONLY, ever accepted ‘Faith’ in Him and His Word, as the means through which anyone is ever Justified, accounted ‘righteous’ it was never on the basis of good works or deeds, for these things only mean anything to God, when they follow on from being accounted ‘righteous’ though ‘Faith’ obedience, in Him.

  20. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    @ Ready done

    Re Why do you say there are righteous people who don’t believe in Christ?

    I doubt very much that ANYONE who understands the Word of God would make such a stupid statement as the one above

    Re Doesn’t the Bible say, “There is none righteous, no, not one”?

    It sure does. See Romans 3:10

    In comparison with the righteousness of the Eternal God, there is no one who measures up. THAT IS A TRUE STATEMENT

    Re People the Bible calls righteous because of their deeds include Abel (1 John 3:12), Noah (Genesis 6:9; 7:1), Lot (1 Peter 2:7-8), Job (Job 1:1,8), and Cornelius (Acts 10:22,34,35). None of these men were of the “seed of Abraham,” or made the sin offerings required by the Law of Moses, or had entered the New Covenant by the blood of Messiah.

    I would like to first augment the points made by Zoe that righteousness or justification or salvation is ALWAYS by WORKS and NEVER by DEEDS by quoting a few of the proof texts for the doctrine of salvation by faith.

    1- Romans 4:3-5 . For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    2- Ephesians 2:8-10. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    NOTE THAT GOOD WORKS FOLLOWS SAVATION BY FAITH.
    ONLY PRIDE MAKES A MAN BELIEVE THAT HE CAN WORK FOR HIS SALVATION. THE SCRIPTURE NOWHERE TEACHES THIS DIABOLICAL ERROR! NOWHERE

    3- 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    4- Titus 3:4-7 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    Note verse 5 especially NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE . That is so clear to me

  21. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    ERRATA
    my post above should read thus :-

    I would like to first augment the points made by Zoe that righteousness or justification or salvation is ALWAYS by FAITH and NEVER by WORKS OR DEEDS by quoting a few of the proof texts for the doctrine of salvation by faith.

  22. Ready-Done Avatar
    Ready-Done

    Ok i feel i vibe you guys putting out, firstly, normal people read the bible, and we don’t know Greek( nor care to), so going back to original the Greek word and giving us a different meaning to what is written in the bible is not accepted in my ‘books’. I only deal with what is actually written, as that is what the lay person sees.

    Next there are righteous people who don’t believe in Christ. They were righteous people before Christ, how could these know Christ?

    Believing in something (faith) and actually doing something (deeds) is different, all through the bible God asked for actions to prove faith, not the other way around.

    By your works you will be judged not your faith.

  23. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Ready Done

    You remind me always of Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    Re Ok i feel i vibe you guys putting out, firstly, normal people read the bible,

    Normal people ALL OVER THE WORLD who read the Bible and care to really understand what it says look up Vines or Wuest or read Barclay’ s word studies to ascertain what the text means. THERE IS NOTHING ABNORMAL ABOUT THAT!

    Re and we don’t know Greek( nor care to), so going back to original the Greek word and giving us a different meaning to what is written in the bible is not accepted in my ‘books’. I only deal with what is actually written, as that is what the lay person sees.

    Who cares about what is acceptable in your books? You cant only deal with what is written BECAUSE THE BIBLE IS A TRANSLATED BOOK! Do you take the same approach to Medicine or Law?

    Re Next there are righteous people who don’t believe in Christ. YOU MEAN THAT THERE ARE SELF RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE WHO DON’T BELIEVE IN CHRIST. The Scriptures teach that there is NONE RIGHTEOUS NO NOT ONE. There is no righteousness apart from the righteousness of Christ. Onl;y Christ can impute righteousness to a person.

    They were righteous people before Christ, how could these know Christ? BECAUSE CHRIST WAS ALWAYS PROCLAIMED IN TYPE & FIGURE !

    Believing in something (faith) and actually doing something (deeds) is different, all through the bible God asked for actions to prove faith, not the other way around.

    SO THEN YOU AGREE ONE MUST HAVE FAITH FIRST! FAITH ALWAYS COMES BEFORE DEEDS.

    Re By your works you will be judged not your faith. CONTINUE WITH THIS NONSENSE COINTRARY TO THE CLEAR TEACHINGS OF THE SCRIPTURES

    JOHN 6 TEACHES THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT DEED IS TO HAVE FAITH.

    You are doing a very good job for your master. BUT I WONT PERMIT IT. I WILL DEBUNK YOUR NONSENSE ALL THE TIME.

    YOU CAN NOT SPEAK ABOUT SOMETHING THATYOU DO NOT KNOW. AND CLEARLY YOU DO NOT KNOW THE WORD OF GOD.

  24. Ready-Done Avatar
    Ready-Done

    I have nothing in common with Rome.

    I know of God’s works. When i awake a flock of black birds gather, looking for food, they are not afraid of me, i then feed my fish, my dogs and my chickens, then i water my plants, this is after watching the sun rise. And saying my praise.

    I will say again, normal people read the bible, therefore, they don’t depend on Greek or Latin or whatever language it was written in originally.

    GP how can you trust someone who ‘canonized’ books 1000 years ago, trust the choices of books to include in the bible then turn around and not trust their word for word translation?

    You got faith in the ‘canonizers’ or not?

    Medicine or Law is constantly updated, every new theory is not opposed. As Christians do.

    The concept of Being judged by faith alone is flawed and suggest that we have no free-will. Many people in the bible were judged by they works not by there professed faith.
    eg.

    ‘don’t look back, you gin turn to salt.’
    ‘kill your son, if you love me.’
    ‘fill up the jugs with water, and give the guest,( then it was wine)’

    Jesus reward the man that get let down through the roof because his friends showed faith by the action of letting him through the roof.

    The only way to show faith is by action(deed). Therefore only having faith is not enough, one can have faith and not show it, how then will we know?

    Why all the test of people through out the bible? Mr.Porgie?

  25. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Ready-Done

    Re I will say again, normal people read the bible, therefore, they don’t depend on Greek or Latin or whatever language it was written in originally.

    FOLK WHO ARE LEARNED KNOW THAT DETAILS ARE LOST IN TRANSLATION OF ANY LANGUAGE—– FOOLS AND ILLITERATES APPARENTLY DON’T……….AND WONT BE TAUGHT!

    GP how can you trust someone who ‘canonized’ books 1000 years ago, trust the choices of books to include in the bible then turn around and not trust their word for word translation? You got faith in the ‘canonizers’ or not?

    I AM A BIBLE SCHOLAR AND A SERIOUS STUDENT OF THE WORD SO I LOOK UP WORDS SO THAT I CAN BETTER UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING SAID

    Here is an example. It will probably pass well over your head but I will try nevertheless. It will probably be grasped with those of greater intelligence.

    In Collosians 2: 14 Paul speaks of Jesus ‘blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us’.

    WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO THE NORMAL MAN? Well it meant nothing to me, until I could understand what it fully means. So I looked up the Greek AS ALL SERIOUS BIBLE STUDENTS DO!

    Now the word that Paul uses for handwriting is “cheirographos”. This word means a ‘signature’ or a ‘written agreement’. It came to mean technically ‘a written agreement acknowledging a debt; a ‘certificate of debt’, a ‘bond’

    A cheirographos was a document which acknowledged a debt that had to be paid. So Collosians 2: 14 tells us that Jesus erased or cancelling a certificate of debt that was held against us.

    Now the interesting thing is this. There were two words used for cancelling a certificate of debt.

    The most common word for cancelling a certificate of debt was chiazein.

    Chiazein means to write the Greek letter chi, which has the same shape as a capital X, right across the document .

    There is recorded in the papyri an instance where after a trial in Egypt, the governor gives orders that a bond should be cancelled (chiazesthai), that is, ‘crossed out’.

    But Paul does not say that Jesus Christ ‘crossed out (chiazein) the record of our debt; he uses the other word exaleiphein.

    This is of great significance, because exaleiphein means to erase or ‘to wipe out or to obliterate’.

    It is so used of ‘wiping out’ a memory of an experience from one’s remembrance or one’s mind; of ‘cancelling’ a vote or ‘annulling’ a law; of ‘cancelling’ a charge or a debt or of ‘striking a man’s name off a roll’ or list; of ‘wiping a family completely out of existence’. It always has this meaning of wiping something out as you would with a sponge.

    It describes the effort using the contemporary chemicals and techniques the ladies used to remove stains and spots from garments, and grime from the tile grout in the bathroom etc.

    Paul does not say that Jesus Christ ‘crossed out (chiazein) the record of our debt; he says that he ‘wiped it out’ (exaleiphein).

    If you ‘cross a thing out’, beneath the cross the record still remains visible for anyone to read but if you ‘wipe it out’ the record is gone, obliterated for ever. It is as if God, for Jesus’ sake, not only ‘crossed out our debt, but ‘wiped it out’.

    There is many a man who can forgive, but who never really forgets the injury that was done to him; but God not only forgives but wipes out the very memory of the debt.

    There is a kind of forgiveness which forgives but still holds the memory against the sinner; but God’s forgiveness is that supreme forgivenes which can forgive and forget.

    God has forgotten our sin because it is blotted out by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    In Hebrews 10:17 we read “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more”

    Have you availed yourself of this forgiveness?

    Re Medicine or Law is constantly updated, every new theory is not opposed. As Christians do. I SEE THAT YOUR IGNORANCE EXTENDS TO MEDICINE ALSO, AND THAT YOU SPEAK OF WHAT YOU DONT KNOW THERE EITHER.

    You can not teach me about either Medicine or Bible Ready Done, the novitiate.

    Re The concept of Being judged by faith alone is flawed and suggest that we have no free-will.

    WHAT IS THE REALTIONSHIP OF FAITH TO FREE WILL?
    If you believe in God and have faith in what he says you can exercise your free will to obey or disobey and enjoy or endure the consequences respectively.

    Jesus reward the man that get let down through the roof because his friends showed faith by the action of letting him through the roof. HERE YOU SPIT IN THE AIR AND IT COMES BACK DOWN INYOUR FACE .

    In this instance JESUS REWARDED THE MANS FAITH which was demonstrated by his works.

    PAUL TEACHES ABOUT THE ROOT OF FAITH

    JAMES TEACHES ABOUT THE FRUIT OF FAITH. He thought that FAITH without works is dead. FAITH COMES FIRST ALWAYS.

  26. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    Where you get off at with your arrogance? You ever consider that the ordinary man reading the bible and getting his own meaning of the bible may well surpass all the studying and scholars that would seek to concoct and fabricate evidence and scriptures too.

    All you born again christians that walking about talking about a personal relationship with christ has done just that. In seeking interpretations that go away from the traditional understanding of the bible, you have moved away from the faith. All you are living in an imaginary world where there is no semblance of truth.

    The day that you meet Christ and God and realise that a bullet would end any of them the same way it would end you, then you will be saying, “this is not what we thought it was.”…

    and you would dare to call somebody a fool?

  27. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @GP

    “Jesus reward the man that get let down through the roof because his friends showed faith by the action of letting him through the roof. HERE YOU SPIT IN THE AIR AND IT COMES BACK DOWN IN YOUR FACE. In this instance JESUS REWARDED THE MANS FAITH which was demonstrated by his works.”

    You really don’t have anything else to do, right? So you does take pride in trying to demean others. What is wrong with Ready-Done’s interpretation? How is it different to yours?

    If he spit up in the air and it came down in his face, you vomit in the air and it came back in your face.

    @Ready-Done, you don’t have anything to learn from this man. Why you taking his insults? He can’t understand your language and like he going senile or mad as hell. This is not a good example of a Barbados Scholar.

  28. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    I have been asked to get back to systematically developing a Systematic Theology of the Rise of Antichrist and will thus continue by starting an exegesis of Daniel 11

    Exegesis of Daniel 11 part 1

    What is interesting is that there is a certain amount of repetition in Daniel concerning the rise of the various empires prophesied to preceded antichrist’s imminent new world order and the everlasting kingdom of Christ.

    Since Daniel’s prophesies concerning the Babylonians, Meds & Persians, Greeks and Romans have been fulfilled in remarkable detail, we can expect the rest of his predictions to be fulfilled as accurately.

    The near future 11:2-35

    The interpreting angel now explained the long anticipated (since 10:1) revelation about the future that involved Daniel’s people, the Jews. The first part of it concerns events preceding Messiah’s first advent (vv. 2-35) and the second part events preceding Messiah’s second advent (11:36—12:4).

    Four future Persian kings 11:2

    This revelation begins at the same place as the vision of the ram and the goat in chapter 8. It begins with the second kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar’s image (ch. 2) and with the second of the four beasts (ch. 7), namely, Medo-Persia.

    Daniel learned that three more Persian kings would arise after Darius (Cyrus, cf. 10:1). Historically these proved to be Cambyses, Pseudo-Smerdis (also known as Gaumata and Bardiya), and Darius I.

    The fourth Persian king to appear did become stronger than his
    predecessors and attacked Greece. He was Xerxes I (Ahasuerus).

    Xerxes attacked Greece in 480 B.C. with a huge army, but he suffered defeat and never recovered. After Xerxes’ great army (estimated by Herodotus at a million men) had subdued virtually all of Greece down to the Isthmus of Corinth and the city of Athens had been reduced to ashes, Xerxes’ navy was thoroughly defeated by the united Greek fleet at the Battle of Salamis in 480 B.C. This battle probably happened between chapters 1 and 2 of Esther.

    The rise and fall of Alexander the Great 11:3-4

    11:3 The mighty king who arose and did as he pleased proved to be Alexander the Great (cf. 2:32, 39b; 7:6; 8:5-8, 21). He was, of course, Greek. His invasion of the Persian Empire was in large part retaliation for Xerxes’ attacks against his people. He first attacked the Persians at the Granicus River near Constantinople in 334 B.C. and finally overthrew the Persian yoke at Gaugamela near Nineveh in 331 B.C. His conquest of the ancient world took only five years (334-330 B.C.).

    11:4 After conquering most of the ancient world, even farther east than the Persian Empire had extended, Alexander died prematurely in Babylon, his imperial capital, in 323 B.C. His two sons, Hercules and Alexander, were both murdered when they were very young as was his uncle, Philip Arrhidaeus.

    Consequently his kingdom eventually was divided up between his four leading generals (cf. 7:6; 8:8, 22). Cassander ruled Macedonia-Greece, Lysimachus governed Thrace-Asia Minor, Seleucus took the rest of Asia except lower Syria and Palestine, and Ptolemy reigned over Egypt and Palestine. This Greek Empire following Alexander’s demise did not retain the strength that it had previously under the centralized authority of
    Alexander.

  29. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Exegesis of Daniel 11 part 2
    The fulfillment of this section of the chapter is again supported by secular history. AND THE POINT TO BE GRASPED IS THAT IN THE SAME WAY THAT THE PROPHESIES HERE WERE ACCURATELY FULFILLED, IN LIKE MANNER WILL THE REMAINING PROPHESIES IN THIS BOOK ABOUT THE ENDTMES BE ACURATELY FULFILLED.

    Conflicts between the Ptolemies and the Seleucids 11:5-20
    The angel now began describing the affairs of two kingdoms whose kings he called “the
    king of the South” and “the king of the North.” These north and south directions are in
    relation to Palestine, the land of Daniel and his people.

    The nation to the south was Egypt (v. 8), which Ptolemy I and his descendants ruled. The kingdom to the north was what later became Syria, which Seleucus I and his heirs governed.

    Shortly after the division of Alexander’s kingdom into four parts, this Syrian kingdom included much of Asia Minor in the West, and it extended into India in the East. The Holy Land stood between these two great powers, Egypt and Syria, and it became territory that each one coveted and tried to possess.

    11:5 The king described in this verse proved to be Ptolemy I Soter (323-285 B.C.), one of Alexander’s most powerful generals, who proclaimed himself king of Egypt in 304 B.C. He was an ambitious monarch who sought to extend his holdings north into Cyprus, Asia Minor, and Greece. His dynasty ruled Egypt until 30 B.C.

    The prince under the king of the South who would gain ascendancy over the king of the South was Seleucus I Nicator (312-281 B.C.), another of Alexander’s most prominent generals. He had gained authority to rule Babylon in 321 B.C. However in 316 B.C. another of Alexander’s generals, Antigonus, attacked Babylon. Seleucus sought help from
    Ptolemy I, and with Ptolemy’s sponsorship and superior power was able to retain control of Babylon. He was in this sense Ptolemy’s prince; because he submitted to him to gain his military support against Antigonus.

    Seleucus I eventually ruled all of Babylonia, Media, and Syria, a territory much
    larger than Ptolemy’s. He assumed the title “king” in 305 B.C. and was “the king of the North” referred to in this verse. His dynasty lasted until 64 B.C.

    11:6 In the South, Ptolemy I eventually died in 285 B.C. leaving his throne to
    his son, Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285-246 B.C.).

    In the North, Seleucus I was the victim of an assassin in 281 B.C., and his son, Antiochus I Soter (281-262 B.C.), began ruling in his place. Antiochus I died in 262 B.C. and left his son, Antiochus II, in power.

    Ptolemy II of Egypt and Antiochus II of Syria were contemporaries. They were also bitter enemies. However, they finally made an alliance about 250 B.C., which they sealed with the marriage of Ptolemy II’s daughter, Berenice, to Antiochus II. When Ptolemy II died in 246 B.C., Antiochus II took back his first wife, Laodice, whom Antiochus had divorced to marry Berenice. To gain revenge, Laodice had Berenice and her infant son by Antiochus murdered. Laodice also poisoned Antiochus and ruled in his
    place briefly. Her son, Seleucus II, then succeeded his father, Antiochus II,
    and ruled Syria beginning in 246 B.C. Berenice is the woman the angel
    referred to in this verse.

    The NASB text says, “She [Berenice] will not retain her position of power [as queen of the North], but she will be given up [by her husband, Antiochus II], along with those who brought her in [perhaps the diplomats who arranged the marriage], and the one who sired her [her father, Ptolemy II], as well as he who supported her in those times [perhaps her
    supporting patron].”

    11:7 Berenice’s brother, Ptolemy III (246-222 B.C.), whose other name, “Euergetes,” means “Benefactor,” succeeded his father and determined to avenge Berenice’s death. He attacked Seleucus II at Antioch in Syria and killed Laodice. He also conquered much adjacent territory and remained the foremost power in the region for the rest of his reign.

    11:8 Ptolemy III returned to Egypt from Antioch with much spoil including idols and precious vessels from the temples and treasure houses of Syria. He also signed a treaty with Seleucus II in 240 B.C. that resulted in peace between their two nations.

    11:9 Evidently Seleucus II invaded Egypt later unsuccessfully

    11:10 Seleucus II’s son, Seleucus III Ceraunus (sometimes called Soter, 226-223
    B.C.), succeeded his father upon his death in 227 B.C. However, Seleucus
    III himself died not many years later in 223 B.C., and his brother, Antiochus III the Great (223-187 B.C.), became king of the North. Both of these sons of Seleucus II had sought to restore Syria’s glory. Seleucus III invaded Asia Minor, and later Antiochus III attacked Egypt.

    Though Antiochus III did not defeat Egypt, he was successful in gaining control of Israel during his campaign of 219-217 B.C. Egypt’s northern border had until then been Syria, but Antiochus III drove the Egyptians, then led by Ptolemy IV, back to the southern borders of Israel. He earned the epitaph “the Great” because of his military successes.
    All of this prediction did not just prove that God can anticipate history by
    hundreds of years, an amazing fact in itself. It also set the stage for events
    in the Holy Land, which was the primary concern of this revelation to
    Daniel.

    11:11 In an attempt to recapture his lost territory to the north, Ptolemy IV Philopator (222-203 B.C.) attacked Antiochus III on the southern borders of Israel, specifically at Raphia in 217 B.C. Initially he was successful. “Antiochus lost his entire army and was almost captured as he fled to the desert.”

    11:12 Ptolemy IV was proud and did not pursue his advantage even though he killed many Syrians. He did acquire all of Palestine, however.

    11:13 Antiochus III then proceeded to turn in other directions for conquests, specifically to his east and to his north. About 203 B.C., Antiochus III returned with a much larger army and repulsed the Egyptians who were now under the rule of the child king, Ptolemy V Epiphanes (203-181 B.C.). Antiochus was able to retake Palestine as far south as Gaza.

    11:14 The Macedonians under Philip V of Macedonia and the Jews living in Israel joined Antiochus III in opposing the Egyptians. Evidently some of the politically zealous Jews believed that they could gain more freedom if Antiochus III succeeded, but that did not happen.

    11:15 The fortified city that Antiochus III besieged and took was Sidon, which he defeated about 200 B.C. There he forced the Egyptian General Scopas, whom he had recently defeated at Paneas (biblical Dan), near the headwaters of the Jordan River, to surrender. Three other Egyptian commanders tried to free Scopas from Sidon, but they failed. The king of the north in this instance was Seleucus IV Philopator (187-175 B.C.).

    11:16 Antiochus III continued to solidify Syrian control over Palestine without
    successful opposition from the Egyptians. When Scopas finally surrendered to Antiochus III at Sidon, the Holy Land was permanently acquired by the Antioch [Syrian] government, to the exclusion of Egypt.” When Antiochus III entered Jerusalem, the populace welcomed him as a deliverer and benefactor.

    11:17 Antiochus III, under threat from Rome, then initiated peace with Egypt
    and offered his daughter Cleopatra to Ptolemy V in marriage to ensure
    their alliance. He hoped that Cleopatra would remain pro-Syrian and that
    her loyalty to him would give him control over Egypt. This attempt failed,
    however. Cleopatra consistently sided with her husband against her father,
    even though Ptolemy V was then only a boy.

    11:18 Antiochus III then turned his attention to the Aegean coast and sought to
    conquer Asia Minor and Greece. He had been contemptuous of Roman authority in Greece and had said the Romans had no business there. Antiochus did not succeed completely because a Roman commander named Claudius Scipio repulsed him. He is the commander that fulfilled the prophecy in this verse.

    11:19 Antiochus III returned to Antioch were he died a year later in 187 B.C. He had tried to reunite Alexander the Great’s empire under his own authority, but he failed largely because he underestimated the power of the rising Roman Empire. Nevertheless Antiochus III, “the Great,” was a brilliant and successful military leader.

    11:20 Antiochus’ elder son, Seleucus IV, succeeded his father. He taxed his people, including the Jews, so heavily to pay Rome that his Jewish tax collector, Heliodorus (2 Macc. 3:7), poisoned him. Heliodorus was evidently the oppressor that Seleucus sent through “the jewel of his kingdom,” namely, Israel, collecting taxes. This assassination set the stage for the terrible persecutions of the Jews that followed. Thus Seleucus IV
    did not die because of mob violence, as his father had, or in battle, but from poison, as this verse predicted.

  30. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Normal people who read the Bible will find, no doubt, that without a knowledge of history, or researching the history that they would not be able to understand the text of Daniel or most of Daniel for that matter.

    Without referring to secular history most of Daniel would be difficult to interpret.

    This is quite similar to the inability of medical students to understand Pathology without a knowledge of Gross Anatomy, Histology, Biochemistry and Physiology.

    To understand the Bible properly one has to do collateral reading as well.

  31. Ready-Done Avatar
    Ready-Done

    Only scholars know Greek.
    +
    Most Christians never even read the bible cover to cover, only the 3 verses used to make the pastors point for the day.

    The beauty about the book is that it is the ‘truth’ therefore can be used by anyone to mean anything. The Devil himself used the bible very effectively.

    Why look for anti-christ if you have faith, no one can touch you! GP, you going to be dead long before the end of this world.

    @GP, Could you ask all those ‘silent’ flowers to show their support.

    Was it the ‘wonder drug’ penicillin that was found by mistake? Point is that you don’t got to be looking for something to see it.

    @ROK maybe the said bible scholar never read Jude!!

    @ROK do you see sleep as rest for the physical body, or rest for the spirit?

  32. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Ready-Done

    “do you see sleep as rest for the physical body, or rest for the spirit?”

    I don’t know if you can separate the two when it comes to sleep; body and spirit. I would say yes to both for the simple reason that I believe that it is the spirit that drives us and whatever happens between the body and the spirit during sleep, it serves to refresh mind and body. It therefore, may be that the spirit cannot work without the body sleeping.

    Sleep is a very interesting topic. There is a close resemblance between sleep and meditation (if you know what meditation is). Meditation enhances your ability to sleep and while it does not replace sleep, it takes one to another plane or level of spiritual and body function, which the average person will never experience.

    I have come to realise that meditation and sleep induces what is termed as pray… but the christians think that saying or reciting verses out loud is pray. It is much deeper than that. Pray is a silent thing and very personal, yet universal.

    However, if I had to choose I would say that it is more a body thing. You see, the body is the receiver as well as the medium and if it is not working properly or able to communicate with the spirit, then that individual has problems; even death.

  33. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Re Only scholars know Greek. SO WHAT? You don’t have to know Greek to understand Vine’s work or that of Wuest or Barclay. A child could read the notes on Colossians from Barclay word studies that I posted today. I was reading such in my teens!

    Once a pastor friend of mine in Virginia who is a Greek scholar was telling me all about the verbal adjectives that exist in the Greek language. With out batting an eyelid I gave him an example without being myself a Greek scholar. But then I know the Scripture.

    The verse I quoted was Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

    The phrase “that brings salvation” is an adjective because it describes the noun “grace”. It is a verbal adjective because it is couched in the form of a verb.

    Re Most Christians never even read the bible cover to cover, only the 3 verses used to make the pastors point for the day. SO WHAT? Many Christians read the Bible from cover to cover EVERY YEAR. But I bet you didn’t know that did you? Some have been doing it since childhood, because they are interested in doing so, & because they want to know what it says and understand what it means. THEY SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES AND STUDY IT SO THAT THEY CAN RIGHTLY DIVIDE IT!.

    Re The beauty about the book is that it is the ‘truth’ therefore can be used by anyone to mean anything. NO IT CANT. WHEN NOVICES MISQUOTE THE WORLD, THOSE THAT KNOW IT ARE ABLE TO DEBUNK THERE NONSENSE.

    How can the truth be used CORRECTLY OR PROPERLY by anyone to mean anything. WHAT NONSENSE!

    RE The Devil himself used the bible very effectively. YES SO HE DOES! AND SO DO HIS COHORTS AND FOLLOWERS!

    Why look for anti-christ if you have faith, no one can touch you!
    CHRISTIANS DON’T LOOK FOR ANTICHRIST, BUT CHRISTIANS KNOW THAT SIGNS THAT SIGNAL THE RISE OF ANTICHRIST MEAN THAT THE SCOND ADVENT OF CHRIST IS NIGH, BECAUSE CHRIST SAID SO IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE.

    GP, you going to be dead long before the end of this world. THAT IS OK WITH ME.

    I will probably die from the very shock of reading the nonsense I read on these Bible blogs on BU. Never heard such bovine excrement in my life.

    I hope you talk a lot to your plants! That would be a good source of manure.

  34. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    The point that GP is making re word studies from the original Greek that God inspired the New Testament in, is vitally important, if one really wants to get a more thorough understanding of God’s Word.

    An example of this significance, and the point that is vital that Bible students realize that the appearance of a certain English word in various places in our Authorized Version of the New Testament does not always indicate that the same Greek word is found in each place. For example:

    The English word ‘will’ is found 540 times in the New Testament, according to Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. The word ‘will’ is found in 337 places functioning as an auxiliary verb indicating the future tense of various Greek verbs being translated. BUT, in 203 places it is used in a nonauxiliary fashion to translate twelve (12) different Greek words, mostly nouns and verbs.

    If you take the time to study these 12 different entries carefully, you will find that these twelve Greek word are rendered sixty (60) different ways other than by the word ‘will’, and that these renderings are found in 252 places in the New Testament.

    How come a Greek word like ‘Thelo’ can be translated ‘will’ ninety-eight time, ‘would’ (a conditional or auxiliary form of ‘will’ seventy times, and yet can be rendered thirteen other ways forty-three times?

    It is due to the fact that no English word is an exact equivalent of any Greek word; nor is any Greek word the precise equivalent of a single English word. Thus the word ‘will’ and the word ‘Thelo’ only partially denote (define) and connote (suggest) what the other does. This principle holds true regardless of which two languages one might wish to compare.

    Therefore, we must expect a good translation of the Bible to use considerable diversity of expression in rendering the various occurrences of a common Greek word in the New Testament, so that the nuances that different contexts require might be faithfully communicated to the reader.

    Our Lord Jesus Christ teaches that the very ‘words’ of Scripture are inspired, for He says, “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot [ reference to the ‘yod’ the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet, equivalent to the Greel ‘iota’ and our English ‘i’ and ‘j’ or one ‘tittle’ [an ornamental stroke on a letter, such as the serifs that hang from the ends of the horizontal bar on the T] shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” ( Matt. 5:18).

    If Christ could make such a statement about the Old Testament Scriptures that are written in the Hebrew language, which is much less precise than the Greek, then we can be sure that such a statement applies equally to the New Testament Scriptures written in Greek.

    This is why it is imperative for any student of God’s Word, in seeking to be faithful to their stewardship of the Gospel by careful study of the words of Holy Writ.

    One cannot properly grasp nor understand God’s Word, unless we proceed with our study on the basis of sound hermeneutical principles, which involve three aspects of Biblical hermeneuctis; which are, Grammatical, Historical, and Theological interpretations. Accurate word studies must proceed along each of these three avenues of investigation. Thorough exegesis requires much more than the study of individual words.

    Yet, there is a way for any serious student, without a working knowledge of the grammar and syntax of the Greek and Hebrew to achieve accuarte knowledge and edifying conclusions. This can be accomplished by an inductive study of the words of Scripture, a study regulated by faith, prayer, and the diligent application of the appropriate principles of grammatical, historical, and theological interpretations.

    A good example of the importance of ‘word’ studies is the word ‘believed’ in John 2: 23. In John 2: 23-25, we read:

    “Now when He (Jesus) was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many ‘believed’ in His name, when they saw the miracles which He did. But Jesus did NOT commit Himself unto them, because He KNEW all men, And needed not that any should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.”

    The question that arise are these: What was it about the faith of this multitude that caused the Omniscient Son of God to refuse to commit Himself to them? Is there more than one kind of faith? These questions may be answered by a carefully studying the words translated “believe,” “faith,” “belief,”
    “trust,” and so on, which is a very detailed exercise in itself.

    I’ll look at this later on!

  35. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Its nice to read something that makes sense Zoe.

    One of the things that you are saying is that by refering to a Strongs Cocordance & Vines Word studies , you can facilitate your understanding of the Word without a knowledge of Greek.

    You can now purchase these two books in one paperback volume for less than 20US.

  36. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Getting back to John 2: 23-25, where “…many ‘believed’ in His (Jesus) name…But Jesus did not commit Himself unto them, because He ‘knew’ all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for He knew what was in man.”

    To the person who is not familiar with Greek reference books, “….many ‘believed’ in His name…” would probably indicate that they trusted Jesus as Saviour and Lord, but this is not in fact so, as the following word study will show.

    By looking up Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance the word ‘believed’ in John 2:23, we find the code number 4100. On page 622 of The Englishman’s Greek Concordance we find that 4100 belongs to the verb ‘pisteuo’. Next we locate the reference to John 2:23 where we find that ‘pisteuo’ is translated “believed.”

    Now, by checking the reference adjacent to this one we may apply a principle of grammatical interpretation, namely, the examining of the immediate context ( in this case to see whether the same Greek word is used nearby). As it turns out, the word ‘pisteuo’ occurs twice earlier in the same chapter (vv. 11,12) and once immediately afterward (v.24). In verse 11, the outward circumstances are somewhat similar to those of verse 23. Jesus had just performed His first miracle, and had “manifested forth His glory” in the turning of water into wine; “and His disciples “believed” on Him.”

    Clearly, those disciples who ‘believed’ in Jesus, not only believed in the miracle that He performed, BUT, also ‘believed’ His Words and the Scriptures. Furthermore, their faith was enduring, a faith that survived the unspeakable traumas of Christ’s arrest, trial, crucifixion, and burial. Therefore, there is a very real contrast between the persevering ‘faith’ of the disciples spoken of in verses 11 and 22 and the faith of the multitude. Both groups ‘believed’ the miracles that Christ performed, acknowledging them as credentials indicating that Jesus was a teacher sent from God (John 3: 1,2); BUT, something was lacking in the believing multitude, a lack that caused the all-knowing Son of God not to ‘commit’ or ‘entrust’ (the same word ‘pisteuo’) Himself to them, as He did to His disciples. No doubt His disciples fit the description of ‘saving faith’ given in John 1: 11-13 ( with the exception of Judas Iscariot).

    As John 1: 12, 13, plainly teaches, saving faith is the Product of the ‘new birth’ that is, the result of being born of God, spiritually.

    There is a vast difference between ‘mental’ intellectual ‘belief’ which is just mental assent to a fact, such as the multitude did in ‘believing’ in the miracles that Jesus performed, and true, sincere, heart-felt ‘belief’ as indicated by Jesus’ disciples, which is a commitment, and enduring, deep, abiding ‘Faith’ in the Person and Lordship of Christ.

    I ‘believe’ mentally, to the fact that PM Thompson, is our Prime Minister, BUT, I do NOT know him personally; whereas, there are others that ‘know’ him personally, an entirely different matter all together.

    Likewise, there are multitudes who ‘believe’ mentally, to the historic fact, that Jesus Christ IS the Son of God, and that He did Resurrect from the dead on the third day; BUT, they have never taken the longest twelve inch journey they can ever take, that is, moving their ‘belief’ from their ‘Head’ to their ‘Heart.’

    Having begun to examine the larger context, let us continue by looking for occurrences of ‘pisteuo’ farther along John’s Gospel. In John 3: 15, 16, and 18, we find that those who ‘believe’ in Christ SHALL NOT perish, but shall have everlasting life. In verse 36, we learn that “he that ‘believeth’ [is believing] on the Son, ‘hath’ [is presently, already possessing] everlasting life: and he that ‘believeth NOT [ 544 apeitheo, which the American Standard Version translates ‘obeyeth not’] the Son shall NOT see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

    In this verse we will apply three principles of grammatical interpretation.

    1) We will use this verse to shed light on John 2:23, since both belong to the same larger context.

    2) We will compare the words rendered “believeth” and “believeth not” in order to better understand their similarities and dissimilarities.

    3) We will examine each of these words in the immediate context in order to learn their meaning.

    First, John tells us what characterizes those who have everlasting life; they ‘believe’ [ pisteuo) on the Son. the opposing parallel tells us what charaterizes those upon whom the wrath of God abides, who shall not see life, and who shall perish in their sins (vv. 16-19): they ‘believe not’ or ‘disobey’ the Son [ apeitheo]. The idea of disobedience will provide the key for discovering the defect in the faith of the multitude.

    Secondly, as we closely examine the antonyms [‘believeth’ and ‘believeth not’], using the information in this Greek concordence, we discover some intriguing facts. ‘apeitheo’ is related to ‘apeithes’ meaning, ‘unwilling to be persuaded, unbelieving, disobedient, (Luke 1:17; Acts 26:19; Rom. 1:30; 2 Tim 3:2; Titus 1;16; 3:3).

    But, ‘pisteuo’ is also related to ‘peitho’ [to ‘persuade,’ ‘trust,’ ‘obey,’ ‘have confidence,’ etc.). Therefore, it is easy to conclude that the words rendered “believeth” [pisteuo] and “believeth not” or “obeyeth not” in John 3:36, being related to the same word, are used here to teach two different aspects of the same truth, each with its own distinct emphasis that clarifies and compliments the other.

    Thirdly, we come to examine these two verbs in each other’s light and in the light of the immediate context, at the same time applying the principle of ‘theological’ interpretation call ‘the analogy of faith (Scripture). The first verb ‘pisteuo’ emphasizes that bare, empty-handed faith by which sinners are justified before a Holy God. See romans 4 (esp. v. 5) and Galatians 3 (esp. vv. 2, 5-11). The second verb ‘apeitheia’ on the other hand, emphasizes that ‘disobedience’ that characterizes all those who ‘refuse’ to entrust the whole weight of their souls to Christ. Later on John records these words of christ to His eleven faithful disciples: “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you” (John 15: 14). Though apart from faith, “all our righteousness are as FILTHY RAGS” before God (Isa. 64: 6), nevertheless, a faith that does not produce good works IS not a saving faith but a dead one (Eph. 2: 8-10; James 2: 14-26).

    Therefore, we have seen that there is a faith that falls short of genuine ‘saving’ faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. We first noticed this ‘miraculous’ faith (of faith in miracles) in John 2:23. John 6 stands as an everlasting monument to the difference between the two. The miraculous faith of the multitude, who bearing their invalids, followed Christ in order to benifit from His famous healings, is described in John 6:2. Having been fed miraculously (vv. 5-13), these poor men saw immediately what Jesus could do for them materially if He were their king (vv. 14, 15). After they questioned Him about His avoiding them, Christ discoursed at length in order to correct their carnal preoccupation with their own physical needs and total neglect of their spiritual needs (vv. 26-65).

    It would be well to note how the principles of historical interpretation should be applied to John 6, in order to draw proper conclusions about the different kinds of faith.

    This is just a brief look at the vital significance of doing word studies from the Greek, and other related hermeneutical matters, without which, one will never to able to properly understand the deeper aspects of God’s Word.

  37. Ready-Done Avatar
    Ready-Done

    Well if i got to learn Greek or buy $40 dollar books to understand something written in English i shouldn’t have gone to school. It wasn’t worth it.

    Really now, the same way ZOE & GP could translate the ‘word’ and give we the ‘correct’ meaning could not the original persons that translate the ‘word’ give us the correct meaning also?

    Was it their intention to mislead the pubic that hasn’t learnt Greek?

    @ ROK about the spirit-body connection, we got about the same views, it always seams to me that the body is a vehicle, much like a car and the spirit is the controlling force, much like the driver. I say this because when we are sleeping and dreaming there is no actual physical action, but the spirit is capable of producing feelings as though it were physical.

    It looks to me as though the spirit can only survive so long out of the actual spiritual realm, after a while it needs to go back to the said spiritual realm to recharge(bodily sleep), then comes back to the material body to deal with the material world. Yet the spirit is still active while we are awake.

    So i think the spirit will survive without the body. But i ent understand the reason for the body as yet, maybe its a test of the spirit?

    Can you shed any light on this for me?

    You saying meditation is like a ‘conscious sleep’, where we can be conscious in both physical and spiritual realms at the same time?
    what benefits will this produce?

  38. Ready-Done Avatar
    Ready-Done

    Georgie Porgie said ‘How can the truth be used CORRECTLY OR PROPERLY by anyone to mean anything. WHAT NONSENSE!

    RE The Devil himself used the bible very effectively. YES SO HE DOES! AND SO DO HIS COHORTS AND FOLLOWERS!’

    How much degrees one needs to have to notice the two above statements are conflicting!

    If i was to use bible quotes as much as you, i wonder if you would be forced to think before you answer?

    The bible and Christianity has given birth to many movements including the KKK. And now is being used to accept Gays and child molesters and whats not.

    In your studies, have you noticed that the pagan church took over the true christian church while it was under the rule of pope Damascus the first?????

  39. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Ready-Done
    Re Well if i got to learn Greek or buy $40 dollar books to understand something written in English i shouldn’t have gone to school. It wasn’t worth it.

    It amazes me how you talk like a twit all the time.

    Folk who want to fully understand SHELLY SHERIDAN & SHAKESPEARE BUY KEYS AND BOOKS TO DO SO. These writers wrote in ENGLISH TOO Didn’t they? But I bet you don’t know that? Do you. You don’t read.

    Folk who want to fully understand SCRIPTURE have invested money in libraries on the Bible . IT IS AMAZING TOO THAT SOME OF THESE MEN & WOMEN ARE QUITE SMART IN THEIR SECULAR ENDEAVORS.

    I had a pastor for one year who was Permanent Secretary and an advisor to Milton Cato. He was one of the most brilliant & practical men I have ever met in a church, or elsewhere. HE SOLD US BOOKS AT LESS THAN COST TO ENCOURAGE US TO READ! I don’t regret it. I was 16-17 at the time.

    Re Really now, the same way ZOE & GP could translate the ‘word’ and give we the ‘correct’ meaning could not the original persons that translate the ‘word’ give us the correct meaning also? Was it their intention to mislead the pubic that hasn’t learnt Greek?

    The original translators did a good job. But they did not devote their lives to reading the papyri and digging out the nuances in the language as VINE, WUEST, VINCENT BARCLAY et al.

    e were not

    Ready-Done
    Georgie Porgie said ‘How can the truth be used CORRECTLY OR PROPERLY by anyone to mean anything. WHAT NONSENSE!
    RE The Devil himself used the bible very effectively. YES SO HE DOES! AND SO DO HIS COHORTS AND FOLLOWERS!’
    How much degrees one needs to have to notice the two above statements are conflicting!

    The “Effective” use of the Bible by the devil, HIS COHORTS AND FOLLOWERS is NOT synonymous with CORRECT OR PROPER USE!

    The “Effective” use of the Bible by the devil, HIS COHORTS AND FOLLOWERS is designed to entrap men and keep them in their sin. It is designed to negate the truths of the word, it is designed TO SNATCH AWAY THE SEED THAT IS SOWN.

    This is not by any stretch of the imagination CORRECT OR PROPER USE!

    If i was to use bible quotes as much as you, i wonder if you would be forced to think before you answer?

    I USUALLY HAVE TO THINK WHEN I TALK TO FOLK WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

  40. ROK Avatar
    ROK

    @Ready-Done

    “So i think the spirit will survive without the body. But i ent understand the reason for the body as yet, maybe its a test of the spirit? Can you shed any light on this for me?”

    The body is but a receptacle or a receiver is how I describe it, that allows your spiritual self to interface with the world. It is equipped to deal with most physical contingencies; the spirit does the rest.

    Just as you say, get behind a car wheel and you can drive where you want to go. So to me, the purpose of the body is for the spirit to have a material existence; a manifestation.

    Some of these principles are in the bible, for example, that the body is the temple of the Lord and that you should keep it holy. Christ purportedly taught his disciples to pray. All this has to do with keeping the manifestation in good working order and give maximum performance of body and mind.

    You will see the three principles enmeshed in those bible passages. The temple as the receiver; keeping the receiver in good working order; and keeping a constant communication with the spirit (praying).

    “You saying meditation is like a ‘conscious sleep’, where we can be conscious in both physical and spiritual realms at the same time?
    what benefits will this produce?”

    This is a very good question. The benefits of meditation is better overall functioning of the physical manifestation we call the body. You are more in tune with your environment. You see things the average eye don’t see and you perceive things which the average don’t perceive.

    It gives you extraordinary physical and mental strength as well. You know what is around the corner; you are steps ahead of average person. It is an experience to behold; even your judgment is totally focussed and on target.

    In short, meditation offers the kind of protection christians dream of and ask their god for. A person who meditates has total control (no exaggeration) and is very disciplined. I am not speaking from hearsay.

    A key element is overcoming the fear of death. Meditation allows you to overcome the fear of death. Many people say they don’t fear death but when put to the test, they become terrified. I am not sure that people understand what it is not to fear death; to be ready to die anytime.

    Funny enough, the same bible tells you that achieving this state of mind is essential to being righteous.

  41. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    The task of bible translators is to render as accurately as possible, from the Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT) such a version, that is faithful in its basic rendering, that ordinary people, can read God’s Word, and understand the import of what God said.

    Just about everyone in English speaking countries, know by heart John 3:16.

    “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

    Now, that verse is pretty straightforward, as it is rendered (translated) from the Greek.

    But, a theology student or scholar, could take some key words from that verse, and do some deeper word studies, and exegesis, that would entail much more space in order to have it conveyed, which is NOT the job, task of a translator; this is the task of the serious student, or theologian of God’s Word.

    If this was done by the translators, the bible would be so large and heavy, one would not be able to lift it and carry it around; so that all of the other vast reference works, are available at Christian book stores, Bible Colleges and Siminary’s and so on.

    To those who have taken the time to engage this endeavor, the rewards are absolutly amazing. But, only the ‘Saved’ Justified person can really make any sense of these deeper studies, as the Holy Spirit who authored the Word of God, is the ‘One’ who brings spiritual illumination to the revelation contained in God’s Word.

  42. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @Ready-Done
    You said…
    “I know of God’s works. When i awake a flock of black birds gather, looking for food, they are not afraid of me, i then feed my fish, my dogs and my chickens, then i water my plants, this is after watching the sun rise. And saying my praise”
    *************************************
    RD, I wonder if you know exactly how profound your above assessment is….?

    Your statement touches on the masterful method that God HAS used to teach all mankind about their (God’s) truth and purpose.

    As you have clearly offered, if the bible does indeed require Greek references, teachers with multiple degrees, as well as the ability to read and understand English – AND the holy spirit in top of all that – then either God had a design problem – OR it was intended to be confusing.
    …on the other hand,
    ….any person with basic common sense can look around their own environment and observe the beauty, the structure, the logic and the clear messages in the creation all around us.

    ….but then again common sense is very uncommon…

  43. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    how unfortunate god does not speak english

  44. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    BT writes …

    “….any person with basic common sense can look around their own environment and observe the beauty, the structure, the logic and the clear messages in the creation all around us.”

    ====

    Anyone?

  45. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    The Scripture says in Psalms 19:1

    The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

    Yes indeed any person with basic common sense can look around their own environment and observe the beauty, the structure, the logic and the clear messages in the creation all around us.

    But you know what, many folk are unable to attribute the beauty, the structure, the logic and the clear messages in the creation all around us that they observe to the creator.

    The purpose is not to just observe it is also to RECOGNIZE THE GLORY OF GOD as is clearly taught in Romans 1. To do otherwise has consequences

    1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
    1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
    . .

  46. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    TO ALL THOSE WITH THE UNCOMMON COMMODITY CALLED COMMON SENSE

    If you want to understand a book written in English, one must have the ability to read and understand English.

    To understand the Bible does NOT require you to be a Greek scholar or teachers with multiple degrees. I AM NOT A GREEK SCHOLAR although I have had Bible teachers in my local church who had multiple degrees.

    Whereas you DO NOT need Greek to be saved, or to understand the Bible, SERIOUS BIBLE STUDENTS & BIBLE SCHOLARS learn Hebrew & Greek, or refer to appropriate lexicons to facilitate an understanding of the nuances of the text.

    As Zoe has tried to explain Strong’s concordance with which I was familiar since teen age years, lists every word used in the Bible with a number called a Strongs number so that you can differentiate which Hebrew or Greek word is used to translate a particular word. This is of particular help in better understanding the translation that was made.

    Note that 7 groups of scholars translated different sections of the Bible, and they often used different English words to translate the same Greek word. All this is so Basic that it boggles the mind that it is not known or understood. Even teenagers in good Bible teaching churches in Barbados know this stuff.

    To understand the Bible does require the Holy Spirit as taught in Corinthians.

    The Bible is hard to understand, not because God had a design problem – OR it was intended to be confusing, but because men with their stupid intellectual pride will not take the time to STUDY IT or SEARCH IT AS THE BIBLE SAYS MUST BE DONE.

    THE WORD CLEARLY TEACHES STUDY TO SHOW THY SELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, A WORKMAN THAT NEEDETH NOT TO BE ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.

    Children can understand the BIBLE.
    How do I know this? My children demonstrated this to me, by the answers they gave when I quizzed them about information that had been presented to them.

    Before age 10 my first son could see the obvious relationship between 1 Peter 5:6 & James 4:10 inter alia. He could appreciate that although the word “appears” appears twice in 1 John 3:2 has a different meaning.

    It is certainly very TRUE common sense is very uncommon…especially on BU Bible blogs.

    On another occasion I will show you from one of Jesus’ parables WHY THE WORD OF GOD IS NOT UNDERSTOOD.

    Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2;13 tells us how these believers received the Word.

  47. Ready-Done Avatar
    Ready-Done

    Georgie Porgie you are a master at understanding the bible!! Do you understand GOD?

  48. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Do you?

  49. Not Saved Avatar
    Not Saved

    Georgie have you studied the Qur’an?

  50. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    I have been requested to post a note on the subject of The Day of The Lord

    THE DAY OF THE LORD (part 1)

    Many of the Old Testament prophets make reference to this momentous period of time. Some use the terms “the day” or “the great day” or as “that day”, but all by this as expression strongly relate to God’s rule of the earth and therefore to His sovereign purpose for world history and specific events within that history. The Day of the Lord refers to God’s special interventions into the course of world events to judge His enemies, accomplish His purpose for history, and thereby demonstrate that He is the sovereign God of the universe. Diligent perusal of the pages of the Promises of God reveal that references to the Day of the Lord occur seventy-five times in the Old Testament. This phrase became such an understandable subject of the Old Testament that by the time of Zechariah, one of the last of the prophets, could use the term “in that day” and it was understood that he meant the Day of the Lord. This phrase had definite connotations and was the great theme of the writings of the Old Testament prophets, who related it to the future kingdom promised in the Old Testament, and connected it with the coming of Christ as it relates to the setting up of this kingdom. The expression “the day of the Lord” clearly has an end-time (eschatological) meaning.

    All honest Bible scholars who seek to become genuine students of prophecy must obtain a sound grasp the concepts presented in the doctrine about the day of the Lord, as this is fundamental to proper and right division of the scriptures which deal with the pertinent and practical promises of the end time. We must “get it out of the realm of the nebulous and tenuous, and avoid thinking of it as a vague theory and a spurious theology, as is done today even in many seminaries,” for the subject of the Day of the Lord was, and still is a very important part of the program of God.
    ,” McGee on Thessalonians

    McDonald defines the day of the Lord as “any time when God judges men and their evil ways, and gets the victory and great glory to His name. In the future, it will be the time of great trouble after the rapture of the church, which will be followed by one thousand 1000 years when Christ will rule on earth”. “It is the day when the Lord will judge and interfere once more directly in the course of this world’s politics.”

    “The day of the Lord” is a technical phrase that refers to a long period of time which begins when the day of Christ ends with the rapture of the church, incorporates the Great Tribulation, the judgment at the end of the tribulation, the thousand year reign of Christ, (see Acts 2:20; 2 Peter. 3:10; Revelation 6:17 and the final judgment— the Great White Throne Judgment, and ends with the creation of the new heavens and earth. When Peter says in 2 Peter 3: 10 that “the day of the Lord will come like a thief” he is referring to the rapture of the church. Then with the next phrase he describes the destruction of the heavens and earth. Thus in one verse Peter talks about the beginning of the day of the Lord and its ending.

    It is important for us to understand the sequence of events involved in the day of the Lord, so we will give this general summary. Jesus will first come at the rapture invisibly and unknown to men in general (the PAROUSIA), raise the righteous dead, and take them along with the saints who are yet alive from the earth for a 7-year period. During this time there will be great suffering called the “tribulation” for the wicked people who were left on earth. At the end of these 7 years, the forces of evil will gather to fight against Jesus, who will visibly return (EPIPHANEIA) to defeat them at the battle of Armageddon. Jesus will then establish an earthly, civil kingdom over which He will reign as King from Jerusalem for 1000 years. At the end of 1000 years, the wicked dead will be raised, then all men will be judged and receive their eternal rewards.

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