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Submitted by Tee White (article submitted to the Nation newspaper)

Dear Editor

I was shocked to read your article in the Nation of 18 June, which reported that Minister of Culture, John King, is opposed to ‘dumping Nelson’.

Mr King is, of course, right that everybody can form their own personal opinions about any issue, including that of racism. However, the problem is that as Minister of Culture, he represents the people of Barbados. How would it reflect on our country if in international meetings he is defending the maintenance of statues glorifying racists and mass murderers even as countries all over the world are removing these offensive objects from the public space?

Mr King says that he has been reading the cabinet papers from previous discussions of this matter but demonstrates a shocking lack of understanding of the issue. I will pass without comment his preposterous statement that removing symbols that glorify racism, such as Nelson’s statue, amounts to visiting the horrors of chattel slavery on others. He appears to think that taking a stand against racism amounts to excluding non-Africans from the history of Barbados. According to this logic, every Bajan of non-African descent supports anti-African racism and the glorification of its architects. This is a terrible insult to those Bajans of non-African descent who strongly oppose racism and also demand the removal of statues and monuments that glorify it. Is John King not aware that the earliest rebellions in Barbados saw enslaved Africans and indentured Irish people fighting together against the oppressive powers of that time? Does he not see across the whole globe that millions of people of all nationalities and colours are taking a united stand against racism, and those who seek to glorify it?

The thing is that the foundation of racism, upon which modern Barbados was established, cannot be incorporated into any new Barbados in which we simply see each other as human beings because racism is opposed exactly to this concept and insists on categorising people into superior and inferior groups. That is why today, people are demanding that racism has no place in the modern world. You cannot defend racism and its symbols and at the same time claim to be against it. Would anyone take Germany seriously if it claimed to be against Nazism while maintaining statues and other monuments glorifying Hitler and the other leaders of the Nazi regime?

I wonder if Mr King’s comments about the parliament building, the wharf and elsewhere are serious comments. If they are, he really does have no understanding of this issue. Wasn’t Barbados itself around during slavery and playing a part in it? What are we to do with it? Throw it in the sea? The demand is very clear. Statues and monuments are some of the ways in which society honours individuals from the past. Those that glorify racists and people involved in the commission of crimes against humanity should be taken down from the public space because they are a statement that the society honours racism and crimes against humanity in the here and now.

There are, of course, many other issues in Barbados that need to be addressed in order to build a new and inclusive society that works for all Barbadians. However, we will make no headway with these if we are unable to confront and overcome the monster of racism that still disfigures our island. The taking down of Nelson is a small step in this effort.

On this issue, Minister King is quite simply wrong.

Read Minister John King’s article published in the Nation newspaper 18 June 2020


 

King not on board with dumping Nelson

MINISTER OF CULTURE John King is not in support of the wholesale removal of Lord Nelson’s statue in The City.

He told the media yesterday his opinions on Nelson and race on the whole were personal and he would stick by them, even if they cost him.

“There are a number of papers I am now studying, from about 2009, on discussions various Cabinets would have had on this issue, but on a personal note – and I know what I am about to say is going to upset a lot of people – I would agree that if you’re talking about Heroes Square,there are validations to the varied opinions. But I will not – and it could cost me everything – be a part or party of trying to do to others what we say has been done to us,” he said.

Calls for the removal of the statue were made again during last Saturday’s protest march through Bridgetown in support of the Black Lives Matter movement in the United Sates and across the world.

King said he did not believe in “stripping down everything and throwing it away”, saying there was a history before slavery and it was now time for a new mindset.

“If you are saying that during enslavement and the colonisation process, that our history, culture and way of life were wiped out and we came into places like the Americas as minorities, why would you now turn around and advocate to do the same thing to somebody else? The discussion we should be having is, if we want to remove this statue, where do we put it?

“How do we recognise the collective history of Barbados is not relegated solely to Barbadians of Afro descent? How do we also incorporate the history of the indigenous people who were here [first]? How do you incorporate

all of the groups that make up Barbados? Let us look at these things for what they are and use them to inspire ourselves to change our prejudices and look at each other as human beings,” he urged.

King said the Parliament Buildings

and the Wharf were around during slavery and played a part in it, asking if those too should be thrown away. He said the Nelson statue should be utilised to the advantage of Barbados while not disadvantaging anyone.

As for the Black Lives Matter movement, King, who as a calypsonian and Pic-O-De-Crop monarch performed social commentaries such as

Fool’s Paradise, How Many More? and I Want A Plantation, said he was accustomed to speaking out against social injustice on his own and would only join any group if and when he felt it necessary.

“I’ve always been advocating against racism, as an entertainer performing overseas and from growing up in England, so I know it well. What is going on in the Unites States has been going on for eons but it is now easier to see due to social media.

“[However] there are other issues right here I don’t hear people talking about, issues some people don’t want to protest, such as classism, which is also a knee on people’s necks. We need to talk about the violence in our own communities . . . and I don’t hear anyone talking about the history of the people we call ‘red legs’ in St John. I hope our future generations find themselves in a different place,” he said.

(CA)

 


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598 responses to “Minister John King is Wrong”


  1. He mentioned the breakdown in the family penetrated all the groups Whites, Blacks and other. Logically given Blacks are starting from the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder there will be a dysfunction to manage. This is what the world is presently witnessing.

  2. WURA-War-on-U Avatar

    If ya have ever lived in US, especially NY, especially if ya feeling downright spiteful and vicious, ya done know sorry don’t mean one shit, ya learn to say sorry with a cruel smile….they know that they owe more than a sorry, they know they owe what can never be repaid…and they better know that they are not supposed to put any of it in the hands of their corrupt, racism and apartheid practicing half human house negros…..give it directly to the people….find a goddamn way, yall found a way to transport 10 million slaves killing tens of millions more across the Continent and the Diaspora and ya got technology to help ya, look at that…….they all know who everyone is and if they don’t just ask the cousins in the Palace, they stay on top of all of those things..

    Hello no good shitehounds in Barbados’ parliament…check this out..

    “The Bank of England apologised for what it called the “inexcusable connections” of some past governors and directors to slavery, and said it would remove any portraits of them from display anywhere on its premises.”

    “Exclusive: ‘Sorry is not enough’, Caribbean states say of British slavery apologies
    Guy Faulconbridge
    4 MIN READ

    LONDON (Reuters) – British financial institutions that benefited from slavery such as Lloyd’s of London should go further than saying sorry for their role in the Atlantic slave trade and atone for their sins by funding Caribbean development, the region’s countries said.

    More than 10 million Africans were shackled into the Atlantic slave trade by European nations between the 15th and 19th centuries. Those who survived the often brutal voyage, ended up toiling on plantations in the Americas.

    While the history of Europe’s scramble for African slaves has been widely known for centuries, the death of George Floyd in the United States has prompted a sweeping global reassessment of racism and the financing of the slave trade.”


  3. @ John June 20, 2020 7:00 AM
    “To a lesser extent whites and hispanics have similar problems.
    Asians are least afflicted and are more likely to have strong family units.
    Asians excel in STEM and percentage wise, dominate college enrollment.
    It’s all in the family.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    How then do you explain the blatant discrimination against the likes of Paul Robeson who had to run away from the land of the free and brave?

    Paul was one of the most talented men who ever walked on the land now called America?

    Wasn’t he the epitome of achievement of what the white world sees as success?

    Why then was he treated that way not even a prairie dog belonging to Mr. Bojangles would envy?

  4. WURA-War-on-U Avatar

    This is how international HUMAN RIGHTS LAWS WORK for SELF DETERMINATION……BU’s slaveminded watch and learn…..for the racists and ignorant negros….sit ya asses down…we got this…

    “The Seattle Example- Black Cities To Ban Police & Give Reparations
    JUNE 17, 2020

    The people of Seattle have made an unprecedented move in America…. that is unprecedented since the founding fathers did the same. Instead of continued protesting, they decided to display the fact that “political power is inherent in the people” as they took possession of the city and revoked the authority of the mayor along with brutal police. Mayor Jenny Durkan later abdicated thus giving legitimacy to the residents’ action. The siege initially consisted of six blocks and a seized police precinct, but later expanded to include the city hall. Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (CHAZ), as it is now called, has become a worldwide name. The residents of CHAZ have erected signs through the area. The signs being placed denotes the fact that they are actually in lawful control of America’s 16th largest city

    Protesters change the name of the precinct and erect a sign stating “THIS SPACE IS NOW PROPERTY OF THE SEATTLE PEOPLE.”
    As President Donald Trump argued back and forth with Mayor Durkan and Washington’s governor, the federal government expressed concern that such a move could metastasize and become a problem nationwide especially in poor urban areas where there is an African American majority. Thousands of African American cities and areas becoming autonomous would definitely be problematic to the American economic and political system although it may benefit African Americans. Federal concern for such happening is justified, but it may be too late.

    The people of Seattle takeover the city hall days after seizing six blocks and a police precinct while creating an autonomous zone
    With groups dating back decades such as the Republic of New Africa along with newer groups such as The People pushing for independent control over states and cities, the Seattle takeover is only fuel for these fires that have already started. “As we have been already advocating and organizing, we can take independent control over our cities then give ourselves justice as well as leverage the $15 trillion plus in assets to give ourselves monetary reparations” states Ramzu Yunus who initiated the new Black Independence movement by The People. “We are encouraging people to bring the same energy we took to the George Floyd protests to their city halls on July 4 to lawfully take possession of our cities or blocks as we witnessed done successfully and peacefully in Seattle” concludes Yunus whose Reparations digital wallet app is attracting millions to sign up on http://www.reparations.app.

    Detroit gathers for Black Independence in 2018 though federal government efforts successfully averted the people from completion.
    Government officials on all levels up to federal have acknowledged that nothing lawfully can be done to end such initiatives when the population of the area is in consent. Federal officials have expressed that it is unnerving to know that African Americans will most likely consent to destabilizing the current order. It is understood that monetary compensation along with anticipated “justice at last” will be enough to push African Americans to select this new alternative of autonomy. Seattle has caused unsettling.



  5. DavidJune 20, 2020 7:08 AM

    Before the the rise of the civil rights movement and Jim Crow.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Jim Crow was late 19th century … Democrats!!

    Even you weren’t born then.

    Post civil rights is when the gap widened,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure

    “The family structure of African Americans has long been a matter of national public policy interest.[18] A 1965 report by Daniel Patrick Moynihan, known as The Moynihan Report, examined the link between black poverty and family structure.[18] It hypothesized that the destruction of the Black nuclear family structure would hinder further progress toward economic and political equality.[18]

    When Moynihan wrote in 1965 on the coming destruction of the Black family, the out-of-wedlock birth rate was 25% among Blacks.[19] In 1991, 68% of Black children were born outside of marriage.[20] In 2011, 72% of Black babies were born to unmarried mothers.[21][22] In 2015, 77% of Black babies were born to unmarried mothers.[23]

    Among all newlyweds, 18.0% of Black Americans in 2015 married non-Black spouses.[24] 24% of all Black male newlyweds in 2015 married outside their race, compared with 12% of Black female newlyweds.[24]”


  6. Get Ready Bongo Mix


  7. Let me throw this out there and duck.
    I am not a historian but should we also be hating our brothers from the motherland who profited from selling us into all the evils of slavery?

    I am not excusing slavery or the white man roll in it,


  8. @ John June 20, 2020 8:25 AM

    Why are you purposely and deliberately avoiding the case of Paul Robeson which can be replicated hundreds of times?

    He met all the criteria for success in the white man’s world and what happened?

    Why do you think so many black American men end up as long-term customers of the American penal system?

    Do you think the song “Chain Gang” by Same Cooke was written for a bluegrass audience?

    Since you know so much about the history of the demise of the black family why don’t you check you Bajan slavery archives and tell us not only the names of the black male slaves nicknamed Horatio or even Brutus but also the names of their spouses chosen in the sight of your god and their marriages as recorded in the registers of the various churches of England around the 12 parishes of Bim?


  9. Back on mission, to hell with the deserters and traitors.

    https://barbadosunderground.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/nelson.png

  10. WURA-War-on-U Avatar

    Pacha, Miller, Piece….lawd.

  11. Freedom Crier Avatar

    GROUSES
    (THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE PEEVED ABOUT).

    The World has Always been Divided in Two Camps and Everyone has Grouses. These Complaints do not go away, they are Always there and these Gripes cause us to make Irrational Decisions in our lives. If we look carefully at the times we acted irrationally and try to get at the Root of that irrational behaviour we will find a Grouse. Therefore, these things that lay hidden in us that the Casual glance would not recognise the affects our Wakening Behaviour.

    Sometimes we are Ashamed when we have “blown up” and acted Irrationally and other times we say well that is me. A man may act with Righteous Conviction in a way that he would normally do like ‘fight to the death for your country’ or Un-righteously like ‘go on a rampage of mayhem’. One is thoughtful and deliberate and the other could be deliberate but is Un-thoughtful!

    THE MASTER OF YOU AND ME IS YOU AND I. We Control our thoughts and if we feed the Wrong Thoughts, they will Grow. If we Feed the Wrong Grouses they will Grow. If we Justify our Irrational Decisions they Will Grow. If you Feed a Grouse it will become Strong like a Tiger and will Act like a Tiger, but it does not mean that it is not a Grouse.

    When Christ spoke to us, he spoke of Forgiveness although we forgive others it is we who benefit. When we no longer hold on to the Grouse and it does not have a Hold on us. We may be Wiser and more Careful, but Miracles of Miracles, is that we no longer have the Grouse Nor do we have the Irrational Behaviour.

    When Christ spoke of Repentance he was talking about rectifying our own behaviour. Repentance and Forgiveness is just both sides of the same coin.

    WE ALL HAVE BEEN FED A STEADY DIET OF LIES BY THOSE WHO PREACH A NARRATIVE.

    Religious Leaders No Longer See, that to Correct the world you have to correct the Individual. However, Politicians and those with Narratives Feed the Grouses to gain the Advantage over others and they Always use Emotion. Let Freedom give you a small example… If someone does not want to enter into Controversy because they see that you are behaving Irrationally and decides to keeps silent, because they do not want an irrational behaviour to get out of hand or worse, you are said to be violent with the Refrain that ‘Silence is Violence’. And if they that say it, believe it, they have now Justified to themselves that they can Perpetuate Violence on you because they now believe that your ‘Silence is Violence’ and they are reacting to your Silence as Violence while pretending they are defending themselves and are Justified and Righteous and you must be Exterminated. And if you do not join and Do what they Say, you are Guilty of Whatever the Flavour of the Week is. People Lead by their Emotion rather than their Rationality.

    THE DEVIL MUST STAND AGHAST TO SEE HIS WORK OF LIES REACH SUCH MASS HYSTERIA.

    The Two worlds that we spoke of in the beginning, one world is Force, Cohesion, Tyranny, the Loss of Free Will, as in, ‘Do What I say or you are being Violent’. While the Other World is one of Freedom, Individual Liberty, Rule of Law, Free Will, Self-Governance, and Corporation and we are left to Choose between a Functional or a Dysfunctional Society.

    CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY THIS DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE…

    https://miro.medium.com/max/2880/1*mpo-oMft8q69HxjfjAKAnw.jpeg


  12. ….. tell us not only the names of the black male slaves nicknamed Horatio or even Brutus but also the names of their spouses chosen in the sight of your god and their marriages as recorded in the registers of the various churches of England around the 12 parishes of Bim?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Horatio Holder
    Principal
    Barbados Church Records, 1637-1887
    marriage:
    11 May 1839
    St Philip, Barbados
    spouse:
    Margaret
    View the record details

    Margaret did not have a surname but acquired her husband’s when they married in 1839.

    Marriage solemnised in the Chapel of Trinity, St. Philip.

    ie, Holy Trinity by King George V Park.

    In St. James, another Horatio Holder in 1867, married to Mary Catherine Licorish, baptised their baby girl Elizabeth Jane Holder.

    Name:
    Elizabeth Jane Holder
    Event Type:
    Christening
    Event Date:
    Jul 1867
    Event Place:
    Barbados
    Gender:
    Female
    Father’s Name:
    Horatio Holder
    Mother’s Name:
    Mary Catherine Lic..l Holder


  13. A child could do this …. easy easy easy!!

    All on the internet.


  14. No Brutuses.

    But a few Sambo’s

    Marriage solemnised in St. Clement’s. Sambo Boyle married Catharine Boyce.

    Name:
    Sambo Boyle
    Event Type:
    Marriage
    Event Date:
    23 Dec 1847
    Event Place:
    St Lucy, Barbados
    Gender:
    Male
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Spouse’s Name:
    Catharine Boyce
    Spouse’s Gender:
    Female


  15. What trolls like John Boy do not realise is :
    What you communicate is what you are
    So what is he?
    He is a Cunt* A brainwashed and brainwashing Cunt*
    (*) ‘Cunt’ gets highlighted on my spell check as an error but it looks right to me, please excuse my french but I am getting a very strong sense sense of Déjà Vu on BU that feels we have lived through the present situation before “already seen” which may be a “precognition” or “prophecy” or may be not
    #ShaolinKungFu #ChineseKungFu #kungfuretreat
    Shaolin Seven Star Fist (Qi Xin Quan – 七星拳) – Stance Training | Preparation Series – Session 1🙏

    Obama family support Jim Crow and Trump Family will kill Jim Crow is his smart ass spam and wack ass logic that loves the white man inside him and hates the black woman inside from his mummy’s side which carries the bulk of his DNA

    Obama family is KKK and Trump family will protect all you black blacks from KKK

  16. Freedom Crier Avatar

    Commie Sing Song does not only want to Rule Barbados he wants to Rule the Caribbean under the Guise of his Communist Band ‘the Caribbean Movement for Peace and Instigation’… That means Erasing History by Stealth, the Communist Globalist Way!

    ‘Our ancestors were so happy that this man stopped us from becoming French (maybe another Haiti and still paying for the audacity for breaking ties with France) that they spent their own hard earned money to erect the first monument. To my knowledge there is no other public stature where the local everyday people contributed to the cost. They were all payed by the government of the time. So it was a stature of the people and by the people.

    HISTORY SHOULD BE COLOUR BLIND
    If this were an old tree, we would be demonstrating to ensure that it stayed.

    If he was seen as a champion of the black people who saved us from the whites they would be riots if anyone suggested that he be moved.

    His actions positively affected all Barbadians of all colours and is therefore a champion for all of us and not one particular group.

    Trafalgar Square was here before the one in England.

    Someone decided to change the name to Hero’s Square.

    The accepted Heroes were brought in.

    Someone then asked what he was doing in Heroes Square.
    No one asked what were the heroes doing in Trafalgar Square.
    We should all learn to embrace our history not try to rewrite it.
    We proudly proclaim that Bridgetown is our “Heritage Centre” while trying to destroy the same heritage.
    Trafalgar Square was there before the one in England. Our Nelson Stature was erected before the one in England. That is an important part of our heritage.
    Some years ago I was in England and there was on TV a live re-enactment of the Battle of Trafalgar. With many ships and “cannon fire” looking real. Probably spent millions of pounds to produce and we are trying to hide Nelson in some dark hole where nobody will see him.

    Just imagine 100 years from now and the population mainly Chinese
    Would it be historically correct for them to take down all the old statues and justify it by claiming that none of them did anything for Chinese?

    History is not made by erasing some or hiding away some from every day sight. We should embrace the good the bad and the ugly and learn from the past.’

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10157843498184735&set=a.10150689484094735&type=3&theater

  17. Vincent Codrington Avatar
    Vincent Codrington

    @ David BU

    Thanks very much for alerting me about the political leanings of the lecturer. I intend to check his credentials later today. I am still firm in my belief that it was worth a listen. I like to observe how racial analysts apply research tools and concepts. The white guilt concept has been around for at least two decades. It features very much in the Davis upload yesterday and my observance of local experiences.
    I am sure that you are aware that any progress which Afro-Barbadians wish to make have to start within and among themselves. They have to affirm ourselves and not look to others to define who we are. Basically that was Steeles message. Blaming others for our predicament and begging for concessions throw the the hard earned freedoms, and power to write our own history back to the former colonizers, and the new emerging colonizers.

    I am suggesting that we concentrate on the lessons to be learnt. We can still learn somethings even those that the lecturer did not intend to convey. It is the process of analysis not the conclusion that matters.

    @ d p D
    I do not intend to follow you down any rabbit holes to day. But pray, please tell how you translate “worth a listen ” to “sterling”?


  18. @ John June 20, 2020 9:27 AM

    “marriage:
    11 May 1839
    St Philip, Barbados

    Christening
    Event Date:
    Jul 1867”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    You are ‘very’ good at retrieving the names of the Quaker slave owners and their goods deeds done for the slaves prior to 1833.

    So why can’t you retrieve the names of the black slaves (including the mulattos sired by the same Quaker upright Christian men) who were married in the sight of your Yahweh between the 1680’s and 1833 the end of legalized slavery in the Barbadoes?

    Even a Quaker mulatto boy called Johnny can do that!

    PS: Why are you evading the Paul Robeson story? Isn’t that on the Internet too?


  19. @Miller

    Leave it alone. This is a discussion with John to nowhere.

    >


  20. @ David June 20, 2020 9:53 AM

    But Blogmaster, I am taken aback at the depth of John’s intellectual dishonesty and the length he will go to justify his morally warped agenda.


  21. So why can’t you retrieve the names of the black slaves (including the mulattos sired by the same Quaker upright Christian men) who were married in the sight of your Yahweh between the 1680’s and 1833 the end of legalized slavery in the Barbadoes?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Very simple, church membership!!!

    In the Anglican Church you become a member through baptism.

    Quakers did not do baptism at all so no baptismal register.

    In fact, all of their Meeting Minutes are missing in Barbados!!

    How does a person become a Christian?

    Most slaves chose not to become Christians so never entered the Anglican Church through Baptism.

    Those that did are recorded in the Parochial Register.

    BTW, no Parochial Registers for some parishes.

    St. George for example only has a Register beginning 1800.

    St. Andrew starts in 1825 which coincides with the Establishment of the Anglican Church in Barbados and its first Bishop.

    Most people in St. Andrew earlier were Quaker and their Meeting Minutes do not exist.

    The secular records, wills and deeds need to be used to construct family trees.

    So naturally in in some parishes, there will be no names recorded …. regardless of colour.!!


  22. That’s how simple it is, even a child could understand.


  23. @Miller

    John has been stripped bare, just bones. Leave him alone.

    >


  24. “Even a Quaker mulatto boy called Johnny can do that!”
    in new Roots series
    John is like Chicken George

  25. de pedantic Dribbler Avatar
    de pedantic Dribbler

    @Vincent, this is a blog… so what’s the fear of discourse…. what ‘rabbit hole’ are u talking about!

    My brain cogs over-compensated what now appears to be your mere off-hand suggestion in ‘worth a listen’ into the more persuasive validation that the piece was quite worthy as an ‘essay’ on the Black dynamic… or ‘sterling’.

    So yes I can agree with you that lots of things worth a listen (in part) are not necessarily sterling… my bad, there!


  26. St. Philip on the other hand has registers going back into the 1600’s, St. Michael and Christ Church too.

    FREE people of colour appear in the pages as do slaves.

    For example, on December 4, 1685, Peter Perkins, a negro, married Jane Long a white woman.


  27. TRENDING on FB and everywhere else. Definition of a trend.

    https://m.facebook.com/groups/136380286454553?view=permalink&id=3027666063992613


  28. @ John

    Birth certificates are a relatively new introduction in Barbados. Previously we preferred baptismal certificates. As to the register of slaves, there is a comprehensive register at the Public Records Office (The National Archives) in Kew, South West London.


  29. Hal

    The slave register is on line and searchable.

    https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/1129/

    The problem with Baptismal Certificates is that not all denominations do Baptism.

    So it is possible for a child to be born and there be no record.

    The Birth Certificate is a secular record, it has nothing to do with any church, mosque or synagogue.

    An 1889 law defines the requirement for a BIRTH certificate in Barbados.

    https://www.cumberbatch.org/index.php/research/barbados-research/56-barbados-birth-registration-act-1889

  30. Vincent Codrington Avatar
    Vincent Codrington

    @ John
    @ Hal
    Each birth has to be registered within a prescribed period after birth at the District Police Stations. So there is little likelihood of a birth not being recorded. There was a penalty attached for non registration. In the past Baptismal certificates were good substitutes but not a replacement for a Birth certificate in all cases.. Filing for a passport was one. Some times the names were irreconcilable.


  31. @ Vincent

    Until relatively recently if one applied for a birth certificate they got a baptismal certificate, which was also used for travel documents.

  32. Vincent Codrington Avatar
    Vincent Codrington

    @ Hal
    You may be right. But that has not been my or members’ of my family experience. In the case of my sister. Only one name was recorded on the Baptismal Certificate. But two names were recorded on the Birth Certificate. The Registrar cannot give a Certificate of Baptism.


  33. @ Vincent
    ALL my certificates came from the Registrar’s office, in the old building and the new. It is only relatively recently that they replaced the baptismal certificate with a birth one. I do not know what your family experience has been.


  34. I have a Birth certificate and a Baptismal certificate and only my mother’s name is on each of them.

    My parents were not married. I was told that in those days ( 1950s ) this was normal and a father’s name

    would only be put on certificates if the parents were legally married.

  35. WURA-War-on-U Avatar

    People power.

    https://www.theroot.com/confederate-statue-in-washington-d-c-pulled-down-by-c-1844105144

    “Protestors in the nation’s capital ended Juneteenth on an appropriate note yesterday by toppling the statue of a Confederate general

    A statue of Albert Pike—a senior officer in the Confederate army—erected near Judiciary Square in Washington D.C. in 1901 was the only outdoor memorial to a treasonous loser that existed in the District, according to a report from the Washington Post.

    Videos posted on social media show a crowd of people using ropes to pull Pike down on Friday night:”


  36. In those days many babies were not named at birth. Only at baptism did they get a formal name. Babies are now named before they are born, so when the birth is registered the name is also.


  37. Perfectly normal for single mothers to have baptised their children and no father’s name be present.

    Robert Cooper Ashby’s former slave had 10 children for him starting in 1801.

    They were my great grand mother’s grand parents.

    All of the 10 children were baptised with absolutely no mention of Robert Cooper Ashby as the father.

    Before she was manumitted the first baptism names her simply as Mary Ann, slave the property of ….

    Succeeding baptisms also make no mention of him as the father but she is named as Mary Ann Ashby with no mention of slave.

    No Birth certificates back then.

    On my grandfather’s side, both his mother and father were born to single mothers, both coloured.

    1850’s.

    Birth certificates only came into existence after 1889.

    I have seen Birth certificates with no names.

    At Baptism, the Christian name(s) are given by the church and appear on the Baptismal certificate.

    If Baptism happens within the period that is allowed to register the birth with the state then the birth certificate will contain the Christian names given at Baptism.


  38. I have seen in baptismal records where the parents were not married and the father’s name is recorded.

    The child is then recorded as illegitimate or a bastard child.

    Law changed in 1970’s I think so no child is illegitimate, unlawful or bastard.

    So, there is method to the madness of not recording the father’s name!!


  39. The government owns your child and the state allows you to have your parental rights unless it wishes to take them away


  40. … every body knew who the father was.

    My great grandfather and great grandmother were baptised with one surname but ended up with another when they married!!

    Sometimes you will see an alias which I believe denotes the name of the father.


  41. Sometimes you have on the certificate that the birth was registered by Joe Bloggs,…often that is the father.

  42. Vincent Codrington Avatar
    Vincent Codrington

    @ Hants at i:08 PM
    Most parents did not know it,but the father ,who usually registered his children, could have asked to have his name put on the register/certificate as father.
    The Baptismal certificate was another issue. That system was to protect falsely naming fathers.and the need to suppress fornication.


  43. Barbados could create one of these.


  44. Hopefully they read what was written on the memorial of Nelson!!!


  45. “Robert Cooper Ashby’s former slave had 10 children for him starting in 1801”

    When a mothering slave had 15 Children she was granted her freedom but the matriarch lived with her slave children on the plantation

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