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Press Release issued by the Leeward Islands Airline Pilots Association (LIALPA)
LIAT TO UPGRADE TO 11 ATRS over two years
LIAT TO UPGRADE TO 11 ATRS over two years

(St John’s, Antigua) The Leeward Islands Airline Pilots Association (LIALPA) is waiting to be informed of the measures LIAT will take in dealing with the passenger who caused the disruption and cancellation of one of its flights on December 13th 2016. The passenger who was on-board an aircraft in Barbados, destined for St Vincent, made a serious allegation that they had detected the smell of alcohol on one of the pilots.

Read full Press Release issued by the Leeward Islands Airline Pilots Association

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110 responses to “LIAT’s Pilot Association Calls for Disruptive Passenger to be Punished”

  1. Artaxerxes Avatar
    Artaxerxes

    I read about the cancellation of a LIAT flight from Barbados to St. Vincent after a passenger accused the pilot of smelling of alcohol, and subsequently requested him to take a breath test. The co-pilot said the pilot was using a “wet wipe” when he boarded the aircraft.
    The passenger became angry because the pilot refused to take a “breath test” to prove he had not been drinking. It was reported that the passenger subsequently apologized and said if the pilot said he was not drinking, the flight should depart. However, she was allegedly removed from the aircraft by LIAT’s manager, but the pilot refused to fly the plane and the passengers were flown to St. Vincent the following morning. [Source: December 15, 2016 on-line edition of “iWitness News” (iWN)]

    This story reminded me of a similar incident that occurred on July 19, 2010 at the Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport, Georgia, USA, when a female passenger was likewise removed from a Delta Air Lines flight from Atlanta after alleging she smelled alcohol on the Captain’s breath.

    Reading their news release, LIALPA seems to be suggesting LIAT should pursue its policy in dealing with disruptive passengers, against the individual in question.

    How is a passenger to know if a pilot had been drinking or not, or used a substance that may contain traces of alcohol, such as “after shave,” “wet wipes,” “mouth wash,” stain removers or cologne? And under these circumstances what should a passenger do if he/she (mistakenly) believed they smelled alcohol on a pilot?

    Disruptive behaviour, depending on the circumstances, is open to interpretation. If the passenger had boarded the aircraft, for example, in an intoxicated state and behaved in a wanton and disorderly manner, such behaviour may be construed as being disruptive.
    However, if the passenger expressed genuine concerns about her safety and became agitated because those concerns were not being addressed, in addition to the co-pilot being aggressive and insulting to her, should she be described as a disruptive passenger?

    As paying customers, I believe passengers have the right to raise any concern, of which they are of the opinion may affect their safety, without fear of reprisal.

  2. David Avatar
    David

    This a very interesting case. Imagine if many passengers felt the inclination to challenge pilots. There must/should be a procedure the airline is mandated to activate to avoid an ugly scene like what transpired in this case.But what can they do in a scenario where a plane is on the tarmac about to take off? Agree with you that the LAILPA’s position as articulated in the press release seems excessive.

    Here is an interesting article on the subject matter.

  3. chad99999 Avatar
    chad99999

    Thank you, Artax

    As usual, we do not have enough information on this case to draw reasonable conclusions.

    How credible was the complaint? What do we know about the age, education, occupation, and personal reputation of the accuser? How was the complaining passenger in a position to smell the Captain?

    I am always frustrated when David drops off these news stories — with no background or other contextual information for (most) readers to make sense of them.

  4. ac Avatar
    ac

    Liat seems to be going over board in these one issue by requesting a need for punishment be brought against the passenger who might have had a real or legitimate concern towards safety
    When safety is the root cause of the concern it should be of more concern to Liat than methods use to protect the employee .
    The paying public has rights which Liat must be and should be aware
    Alcoholism is a leading cause of death therefore when matters and concerns are brought by the public in this regard to public safety these concerns should not be taken lightly or dismissed to cause blame or input callous or unwarranted actions against the claimant
    Instead of Liat seeking retaliatory action against a passenger with a serious concern which can impact the safety of passengers Liat should have penned a letter to the passenger thanking him or her for performing a civic duty and reacting in a plausible manner of putting safety first
    Liat owes this person a debt of gratitude

  5. GreenMonkey Avatar
    GreenMonkey

    It’s not like news items of airline pilots trying to fly drunk and then having to be removed from (or forbidden to board) the aircraft are that unusual. How was a passenger to know the smell of alcohol emanated from hand wipes and not from a bottle of Mount Gay or Cockspur? Just because its the pilot of the aircraft who apparently smells of alcohol, should he/she by default get the benefit of the doubt? The following news items would imply not.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=drunk+pilot+removed+from+flight&atb=v40-7as&ia=web

    Suppose it makes the news that LIAT has “punished” this passenger, what happens in the future when a passenger sitting next to the engine notices something like a latch securing the engine cowling around the engine is not in the fully closed position, or a passenger notices a stream of oil or hydraulic fluid suddenly start dripping out from underneath the engine cowling as they taxi out for takeoff? Might they be discouraged from raising an issue that needed to be raised for the safety of the flight?

  6. David Avatar
    David

    @chad99999

    Is your head good? Do you understand that BU posted a press release from the pilot association?

    >

  7. Artaxerxes Avatar
    Artaxerxes

    ac December 30, 2016 at 6:37 AM #

    “Liat seems to be going over board in these one issue by requesting a need for punishment be brought against the passenger who might have had a real or legitimate concern towards safety…..”

    @ ac

    It is the Leeward Islands Airline Pilots Association [LIALPA] that wants LIAT to take action against the passenger whom the ASSOCIATION has CHARACTERIZED as a “disruptive passenger.”

  8. lawson Avatar
    lawson

    look at what happened to the pilots caught in uk trying to fly after a night out last year it happens often and they were flying real planes

  9. David Avatar
    David

    @lawson

    Hope your did not suggest in ignorance that the lives on a LIAT ATR do not matter

  10. Artaxerxes Avatar
    Artaxerxes

    “LIALPA wishes to state categorically, that we were never in doubt that our Pilot was innocent of the MISCHIEVOUS ALLEGATION and we continue to stand unequivocally in support of our Pilot. We will also do whatever is necessary to protect our pilot’s reputation and will explore all avenues in doing so.”

    ++++++++++++++++++++

    Other passengers said they also smelled alcohol on the pilot when he walked through the aisle. Apparently, this particular passenger was perhaps more vocal in her complaint, hence, she became the focus of attention.

    A passenger allegedly told iWN during an interview: “At this point, the guy (the other pilot) began speaking rudely to the passenger telling her to stop being stupid and if she is stupid and if it’s the first time she was travelling and all those things intended to make a person feel small.” If this report is true, then the co-pilot, by his actions, would have obviously “inflamed” an already sensitive situation.

    According to the December 19, 2016 edition of Caribbean Aviation, the pilot in question went directly to the Airport Police Station, but due to the lack of the appropriate equipment, the police could not administer a breathalyzer test. He subsequently went to a private lab for urine and blood test, both of which were negative for alcohol.

    I believe it is presumptuous and unreasonable for LIALPA to conclude that a passenger’s legitimate complaint was a “mischievous allegation.”

    Again, if press reports on what transpired are correct, then LIAT’s personnel, including the co-pilot, should have relied on their customer care training by conducting themselves in a professional manner in an effort to calm the situation.

    They could have reassured the passenger that LIAT was resolving the situation in accordance with the airline’s procedures relating to such matters. Then thanked her for drawing the matter to their attention and for being concerned about her well being and that of the other passengers.

  11. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right - INRI Avatar
    Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right – INRI

    @ greenmonkey

    I endorse your point entirely.

    This is the Holiday Season and there are several parties going on be it morning or evening, to accommodate various airline staff shifts.

    A man while speaking to his mother, IN ARABIC, says Allah is Great and follows it with a string of additional words and is then removed from an American plane purely on the premise of language and the man’s ethnicity.

    Yet that is “all cool” for such action to be taken against a passenger, but the converse situation where the pilot is flying an airplane while inebriated, (much like it was imputed that Alleyne Arthur was drunk at the controls of his Suzuki Vitara when it crashed) is summarily disallowed BECAUSE LIAT IS THE DEITY OF THE CARIBBEAN, and is above any fault.

    It is time that we join the 21st century and recognise that we have alcoholics and drug abusers who are doctors, pilots, minibus drivers and other professionals and that these jobs are not “above the law”

    Of course de ole man did not need to mention lawyers since it is a given that they are all of the above excluding Jeff, of course….

    Chad of the 5’s will of course rise to say otherwise given his penchant to decry all things Cumberbatch hehehehheh

  12. David Avatar
    David

    Where the pilot /LIAT staff faltered was in resorting to abuse. There should be a script pilots and staff are trained to follow in this situation. One should always err on the side of caution. These are planes they are flying NOT gocarts.

  13. chad99999 Avatar
    chad99999

    Wrong.

    What I will say is that pilots are like bus drivers with slightly bigger responsibilities — because more passengers die when planes crash.

    In this case, the pilots union seems to be pushing for the accuser to be banished from future flights. That could be a drastic sanction if the accuser is a businesswoman with no other way to travel between islands.

    That is why LIAT should tell the union to be quiet and move on.

  14. ac Avatar
    ac

    Thanks for the correction. Artax
    However it would be of most interest to see if the board and management of liat would disregard the LIALPA ridiculous letter.
    Over the years Liat pubic relations has been severly scrutinize and with good reasons.
    This issue somewhat reopens another episode for full scruntiy
    If Liat board and mangement is smart rather than ignore both sides of the issue which can result in a full blown out speculation as who is right
    It would be in the best interst of Liat to send a formal apology to the passenger and take the pilot association to task for their disregard to public safety from a matter which contains a reasonable and serious concern which can be problematic to passenger safety
    Such an approach would serve LIAT well and reinforce in the public mind a positive attitude towards the board and management of LIAT

  15. Peltdownman Avatar
    Peltdownman

    The passenger had every right to query the matter, and the pilot did exactly what he should have done by going immediately to be tested. If reports are to be believed, the co-pilot acted like a jerk towards the passenger, but that unfortunately, is part of the LIAT corporate culture. Passengers! Who needs them?

  16. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right - INRI Avatar
    Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right – INRI

    Wow, de ole man tek a vacation and come back and findeth that Dompey is now a regular contributor, Simple Simon is undoubtedly not only a Nurse (soon to retire?) but a mathematician of some note and, here is the biggest surprise of all, AC talking sense!

    But not only sense but profound sense!!

    I will re-state what he/she said for clarity

    “…It would be in the best interest of Liat to send a formal apology to the passenger and take the pilot association to task for their disregard to public safety from a matter which contains a reasonable and serious concern which can be problematic to passenger safety…”

    That, as a perspective, is a superlative stance for the demigods LIAT to adopt but, unfortunately it is lost on the LIAT management and will not happen.

    This matter will only have one outcome, Liat will stick to its guns seeking, and Chad of the 5’s hath said “absolute sanction” on the traveller

    It is a thing most strange that i have noted over the years.

    Superlative advice of this nature seems to be forthcoming from the oddest of sources, sources who when similarly challenged, seem incapable of employing similar wisdom, employing “honey to entice” as opposed to cussing and decrying those who are disposessed e.g. the disenfranchised Bajan populace, giving them sweets to seduce them further as opposed to the myrrh and vinegar many of you provide to sop.

    Did someone say “Freedom of Information or Integrity Legislation?” it must be the Ghost of Christmas Past, an ethereal whisper akin to those that visited Ebenezer Scrooge to have him recant his behaviour to Cratchit mayhap a ghostly voice that croons now from St John? saying “All hail, Macbeth, (Mugabe) thou shalt be king (queen) hereafter!”

  17. David Avatar
    David

    @PUDRYR

    The press release by the LIALPA is just a symptom of the fractured relationship between LIAT’s key stakeholders. The management of the two need to have a sit down asap.

  18. Sargeant Avatar
    Sargeant

    @Artax
    According to the December 19, 2016 edition of Caribbean Aviation, the pilot in question went directly to the Airport Police Station, but due to the lack of the appropriate equipment, the police could not administer a breathalyzer test. He subsequently went to a private lab for urine and blood test, both of which were negative for alcohol
    +++++++++
    This is more distressing than the customer complaint, passengers have a right to complain if they see or notice anything which can harm the flight, pilots always exercise their right to remove passengers who they deem as disruptive to a flight.
    However, the notion that a Police Station doesn’t have any working equipment to administer a breathalyser test at an Airport is scandalous, the presence of the requisite equipment could have made this a minor delay, the fact that the pilot was cleared at a clinic doesn’t mean the passenger was incorrect it could mean that the alcohol had more time to clear his system, this not to say that he was guilty of anything.

    I expect that sometime in the future all Airline Pilots will have to undergo a mandatory Alcohol and Drug test at the airport before they are allowed to fly an airline, passengers are subject to all kinds of checks why should pilots be exempt?

    Some time ago I read that GAIA didn’t have some necessary certification to comply with IATA, now I get a clearer understanding of how slip shod this facility can be run. When I was growing up some people in my neighbourhood had a droll sense of humour, we used to call the Village Shop the “what else shop” as in ‘we aint got dat today what else yuh want?

    GAIA take note

  19. Artaxerxes Avatar
    Artaxerxes

    This is the news story I alluded to in first contribution to this article. There are noticeable similarities between what transpired on the Delta Flight (July 19, 2010) and LIAT’s December 12, 2016 flight LI769 from BGI to SVD.

    My apologies for its length.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    A Southern California woman is kicked off a Delta Airlines flight after reporting that she smelled alcohol on the pilot’s breath. By Tara Wallis-Finestone – FOX News – Published at 3:19 PM PDT on Aug 3, 2010:

    A Toluca Lake woman was recently kicked off a Delta Airlines flight after reporting that she thought she had smelled alcohol on the captain’s breath.

    Cynthia Angel said the incident occurred on July 19 as she was trying to travel home to Southern California from Georgia. She had just spent two weeks visiting her son, an actor, who was shooting a movie near Atlanta.

    Angel, 51, said the trouble occurred after she and three other passengers had a brief conversation with one of the pilots of Delta Airlines Flight 2355. She learned later that the pilot was actually the captain of the flight.

    “The flight had been delayed almost an hour,” said Angel. “We were in the jetway waiting to get on the flight when the pilot walked by us and I jokingly said, ‘Boy you had been here a long time.’”

    Angel said the captain spoke to her and the three other passengers. After he walked away, said Angel, another passenger asked if they had smelled alcohol on the pilot’s breath.

    “A gentleman standing behind me asked, ‘Did anyone smell that? It smelled a little like vodka,’” said Angel. “We all agreed that he did smell alcohol, but we didn’t know if he had been drinking or what we should do about it.”

    Angel said she volunteered to talk with the head flight attendant once aboard the plane.

    “I told her that I didn’t know what protocol is, but I believe I smelled alcohol on one of the pilots’ breath,” said Angel.

    Angel said the flight attendant immediately talked to another pilot who was in the cockpit getting ready for departure.

    “He asked me to come inside the cockpit, where he shut the door and asked me about my conversation with the pilot in the jetway,” said Angel. “I told him what I had told the flight attendant; that other passengers and I thought we had smelled alcohol on the pilot’s breath.”

    Angel said the pilot informed her that it was the captain of the flight who spoke with her. He assured her that the captain had not been drinking.

    “He said he had been with the captain for several hours before the flight,” said Angel. “I was satisfied with the pilot’s explanation, thanked him and returned to my seat.”

    But Angel said that 20 minutes later, a Delta Airlines manager came aboard the flight and asked her to follow him off the plane.

    “The manager wanted to hear what I had told the flight attendant,” said Angel. “He then told me the captain took a test that proved he did not have anything to drink.”

    Angel said the manager then thanked her and she returned to her seat on the plane. At this point, she thought it was over.

    “About 20 minutes later, the Delta manager returned with a female colleague and they asked me to gather my belongings and follow them off the flight,” said Angel. “I was so embarrassed.”

    Angel said she followed them back into the airport. She was lead into a nearby office where she was told again that the pilot had tested negatively for alcohol.
    “They told me they take these accusations very seriously and that the captain and his crew did not want me on his flight,” said Angel.

    Angel said Delta gave her meal and hotel vouchers, and said she could come back in the morning to take another flight back to Los Angeles.

    “All I did was voice my concerns,” said Angel. “I wasn’t a threat to anyone and for them to remove me was wrong.”
    “I understand airlines have to have protocol,” said Mark Silverman, Angel’s Beverly Hills-based attorney who Angel contacted to look into the incident.

    Silverman said his office has called and written Delta Airlines for a response and to ask the airline to open an investigation into the incident.

    “She was just trying to be a good citizen. You’d think Delta would thank her for her concern,” he said.

    NBCLA also contacted Delta Airlines for comment. Susan Elliott from Delta’s corporate communications office sent this response via e-mail: “Once we have reviewed Mrs. Angel’s letter and investigated her claims, we will follow-up with her on our findings.”

    “Making drinking accusations against pilots is a serious matter,” said Ross Aimer, CEO of Aviation Experts, LLC.

    “If you think someone is drunk, you owe it to yourself, your loved ones and other passengers to report it,” said Aimer, who is also a retired United Airlines captain. “However, in this case, because the captain had not been drinking, Delta made the right decision by asking her to leave the plane.”

    Aimer explains that in situations like this, flights usually end up delayed or canceled because the captain will take himself off the flight.

    “It’s an either you or me situation,” said Aimer. “She had to go because the captain has his crew and hundreds of other passengers to think about.”

    Aimer adds that if he found himself in a similar situation, he’d do the same thing.

    “The issue of pilots and drinking has become a very big deal, and accusations like that could end your career,” Aimer said.

  20. David Avatar
    David

    It is some time now Barbados was promised by the government (Sealy) that we were working our way to a Category 1 designation. As far as BU is aware the acreditation remains outstanding. If we are unable to attain CAT 1 GAIA will not be able to host LIAT as home base.

  21. de pedantic Dribbler Avatar
    de pedantic Dribbler

    Initially when I say this piece I perceived it as an interesting story steeped heavily in symbolic angst and a lesson to be learned but not particularly expressive of an overarching societal issue; how wrong that was.

    As stated above I agree with the pilot’s stance. Had he flown that plane without being tested his career could have been badly affected had there even been the most minor of mishaps.

    But as we have been pontificating endlessly under the guise of anonymity and thuggish miens it is the co-pilot’s behavior that speaks to that overarching societal problem of crassness and a supercilious attitude.

    — “At this point, the guy (the other pilot) began speaking rudely to the passenger telling her to stop being stupid and if she is stupid and if it’s the first time she was travelling and all those things intended to make a person feel small.” If this report is true, then the co-pilot, by his actions, would have obviously “inflamed” an already sensitive situation.—

    And we complain of folks on blogs being less than mannerly when they don’t know each other!

  22. PltFlyng Avatar
    PltFlyng

    There is much information being left out. What they are not telling you is this:

    The passenger in question incited other passengers to become uncontrollable.
    When asked to deplane so that the issue could be addressed (as it would take time) from inside the terminal the same passenger incited the other passengers to basically riot and refuse to leave the aircraft.
    A reasonable attempt had been made to diffuse the situation. The other pilot informed the passenger that he and the accused had started their duty together almost 8 houranium prior at that point and had been flying all day thus the likely hood of him having consumed any alcohol was small.
    When there was no way to immediately clear him the pilot was placed in an untenable situation as should he operate the flight and there was an incident down the road his fitness to fly would retroactivly be in question.
    When it became clear that he would not fly and that meant cancellation of the flight the same passenger then decided to withdraw her accusation and then further riled up the other passengers by demanding the same pilot now fly them. Which given point 4 above was at this point not an option.
    The blood test taken within a few hours of the incident showed 0 alcohol content. Not “there but below the allowable limit” ZERO as in none. If there was in fact enough for a passenger to “smell” then a few hours later there would have been at least trace anounts
    While one can appreciate the persons right to make an accusation there are consequences for actions. In this case this accusation lead to the cancellation of a flight resulting in the airline having to pay to overnight 48 passengera in bgi on short notice. The cost associated with this is substantial. If you assume $400 usd per passenger for room accommodation and transport (which is a low ball estimate) that is $19,200 USD and that is not even getting into the further disruptions of getting those passengers to SVD on flights to a destination which are almost permanently full.

    This is a case of someone being obnoxious and unruly and unconvincing 47 other people and inflicing substantial cost. There is no reason why it should not be pursued.

  23. ac Avatar
    ac

    Hi David u still mad at me. New Year New Rules. Peace brother

  24. lawson Avatar
    lawson

    No David I was poking fun at liat, however I am curious why that pilot didnt fly this is the part that doesnt feel right. If he flew and landed in st vincent could he then be compelled to take a test.

  25. ac Avatar
    ac

    Of course there are two sides to every stories but sometimes it is better for the establishment to err on the side of good publicity to protect its good name than go barreling down the road full steam ahead and wind up in a cul de sac

  26. David Avatar
    David

    @PitFlying

    Thanks for the intervention! A completely different spin on the issue.

  27. Hal Austin Avatar
    Hal Austin

    question: Why is it that low-cost airlines all over the world are profitable and LIAT is not?

  28. ac Avatar
    ac

    Nit fly have u ever heard of cutting loses and run. Well in this issue the pilot association should take such advice and stop trying to dig a deeper hold for Liat which can be costly
    As a matter of fact we in barbados was faced with a case where the passenger in question was denied entry and a similar recollection by employee was made against the passenher..However to make a long story short barbados ended up with egg on its face and millions of dollars in out of cost pocket expensesj
    Sir when it comes to such issue their is a reservoir of sensitivity that flows along and from that reserviour a need to sympthaise with actions even if the passenger is wrong takes precedent.
    In this case rather than opening a hornets nest the pilot association should let sleeping dogs lie.
    In other words sallow the cost of embarrasment by an irate passenger and run

  29. Gabriel Avatar
    Gabriel

    Hal
    Elementary my dear fellow.Liat makes more landings and takeoffs in more adverse weather conditions and more exposure to salt air in a day than most low cost carriers in a year.Further,Liat’s bailiwick is in undeveloped countries where ideas abound but development money is either misused or just too difficult to secure unless 95% of those funds are going back into the lender’s pockets by resource supply and management.Reparation funding cannot come soon enough to supply the goods and services our free labour bought past 400 years.

  30. Artaxerxes Avatar
    Artaxerxes

    PltFlyng December 30, 2016 at 12:18 PM #

    “The blood test taken within a few hours of the incident showed 0 alcohol content. Not “there but below the allowable limit” ZERO as in none. If there was in fact enough for a passenger to “smell” then a few hours later there would have been at least trace amounts.”

    @ PltFlyng

    I agree with David that your contribution brought “A completely different spin on the issue.”

    However, as reported in the media, MORE THAN ONE passenger said they smelled alcohol on the pilot. The co-pilot told the passengers that the pilot was using a “wet wipe” prior to entering the plane, which suggests he was implying the alcohol they smelled came from the “wipe.”

    Your comment re: “If there was in fact enough for a passenger to “smell” then a few hours later there would have been at least trace amounts,” is true, if you look at the situation from ONE perspective.

    You must also bear in mind that having smelled alcohol on the pilot, how are passengers to KNOW if he was DRINKING alcohol or NOT, or if he USED a SUBSTANCE such as after-shave or even “rubbing alcohol,” which may CONTAIN traces of alcohol, especially in the ABSENCE of an appropriate scientific test to verify the presence of alcohol?

    Although you stated: “The passenger in question incited other passengers to become uncontrollable,” you will have to prove that the intent of her accusation was mischievous or that, as a person of reasonable firmness and believing the pilot was under the influence of an alcoholic beverage, “being obnoxious and unruly” was perhaps her way of expressing a genuine feared for her life or if she thought her complaint was not taken seriously. Surely you must understand that people react differently to the similar situations.

    LIAT having to incur expenses as a result of the flight being cancelled is all par for the course in business operations. That is why businesses make provisions for contingencies.

    Depending on whose side the reader decides to take, whether it is the passenger, LIALPA or LIAT, this story is open to many INTERPRETATIONS and ASSUMPTIONS.

  31. Gabriel Avatar
    Gabriel

    Does Pltflyng know the nationality of the complainant.I can support the call to ban that individual from any airline.Making such false accusations carry severe implications for all concerned.

  32. DpD Avatar
    DpD

    David, as much as the 12:18 PM post provides better context it also highlights another deficiency.

    A poster questioned why the police station at the airport dd not have a breathalyzer test for Pilots and called it scandalous.

    I think the scandal is that LIAT (particularly) or none of the other carriers out of GIAA do not have some system/equpment to affirm their pilots sobriety.

    The cited figures of ” …$400 usd per passenger for room accommodation….that is $19,200 USD and that is not even getting into the further disruptions of getting those passengers to SVD on flights…” falls squarely on the lack of foresight on the LIAT Board!

    A test kit and replenishment sponsored by LIAT would cost less I suspect particularly if incidents like this happen multiple times.

    Incidentally, the effort by the LIAT pilots on the passenger (s) is a calculated PR assault.

    They are emboldened that their pilot was completely, wrongly accused and are using the opportunity to ‘warn’ and push back on others. This public message was totally not required.

    I agree that the passenger should be investigated by the police as this tactic could be used also to create mischief but the police investigation would have been done outside the glare of the public as should be required whenever there is an incident of this type.

    If you cry fire in a crowded room you are investigated by the police if the report proves to be false and indeed if it proves to be accurate…you could have started the fire! In the same vein this passenger may have wanted this flight delayed.

    So a full police investigation is warranted but to publicly shame and vilify the passenger at this point is totally wronged-head by the Pilots’s Assoc. But clearly they see it as the best ploy to protect the integrity of their member.

    The extra context may be useful but the ploy is still self-centred by LIALPA and ultimately counter-intuitive for passenger trust.

  33. Artaxerxes Avatar
    Artaxerxes

    @ Gabriel

    Let me state that I’m not condoning the passenger’s behaviour.

    But, how do you know the passenger’s accusations were false or she and the other passengers did not smell alcohol on the pilot?

    Let me give you a simple scenario:

    Supposed you were on a LIAT flight to “Island A.” A passenger boarded the aircraft, sat next to you, took out a magazine entitled “Al Hilal” to read and spoke Arabic. You call the flight attendant to tell him/her not to proceed with the flight because the passenger next to you is a member of ISIS. Then you incite the other passengers to protest, while calling for his removal from the aircraft. It was subsequently proven that the passenger is a harmless devout Christian and not a Muslim.

    And what is the basis of your accusation? The passenger was reading Arabic script and spoke Arabic, which means he is Muslim and must be a terrorist.

    Do you believe that under these circumstances, “Making such false accusations carry severe implications for all concerned,” or you should be blacklisted (I wonder why not “white-listed”) as a disruptive passenger and banned from travelling on LIAT?

  34. David Avatar
    David

    The fact that the irate ‘disruptive ‘ passenger was willing to fly with the suspected intoxicated pilot when the flight was cancelled reveals a level of maliciousness.

  35. Artaxerxes Avatar
    Artaxerxes

    DpD December 30, 2016 at 3:47 PM #

    Excellent contribution and could be considered to be among one your best!!!!!

  36. David Avatar
    David

    @DpD

    The only flaw in your argument is that a breathalyzer test should be conducted by an independent body.

  37. Artaxerxes Avatar
    Artaxerxes

    “The fact that the irate ‘disruptive ‘ passenger was willing to fly with the suspected intoxicated pilot when the flight was cancelled reveals a level of maliciousness.”

    @ David

    It is difficult to come to that conclusion, because we are not in receipt of any information pertaining to what transpired between the time the passenger became disruptive and when she conceded to travel with the pilot.

    We could assume that (a) she was intentionally disruptive or (2) the crew and passengers were able to convince her that the situation was addressed sufficiently for her to have a change of mind, taking into consideration flight LI769 to SVD is scheduled to leave BGI at 9:15pm and was at GAIA after 10:00pm.

  38. PltFlyng Avatar
    PltFlyng

    I find some of these comments disingenuous.

    “Par for the course” that is easy to say but I garuntee you that if you went into a store in Bridgetown and caused $40,000 bds or equivalent in damage you wouldent say “well that is par for the course” I am very sure that person would be arrested.

    The passenger has a right to voice their concern and it was investigated however the moment they by inciting others and caused a scene they then crossed the line and became a problem. They have a right to query however the crew and ground staff have a job to do.

    Why should liat be burdened with placing testing kits at all the airports in the region. Barbados is not alone in not having this equipment. This type of equipment falls under the types of expenditure that is necessary for regulatory enforcement that is a government function. There is internal arrangements to do exactly what was done in this case. Anything more is the job of the regulators if there was a failing in that regard it is their failing.

    I would also point out no passenger has the right to demand that any pilot (not just a liat pilot) take any breathalyser or blood test. Only the regulator and AOC holder has that right. If the passenger feels for their own safety they should not travel that is a choice they are free to make that choice however they do not have the right to make arbitrary demands.

    If you falsely accuse someone in a court of law you can be liable for court costs and damages if you fail to prove your case why should this be any different. Secondly making false accusations wildly in public can still get one sued for slander I understand that passengers travelling are sometimes under pressure but they are still obligated to act with some degree of rationality. I routinely see people get away with all kinda of outlandish behaviour for what reason I am not sure.

  39. Gabriel Avatar
    Gabriel

    This is a most unusual occurrence.Eyewitness reports apart it is a brave soul or a well connected creature who would dare make this accusation,false according to one with knowledge of the racket and riot like behavior in a confined area of a small aeroplane.Its enough to create panic and a mad scramble for the exit.As someone opined its akin to hollering ‘fire’ in that cabin.The person who created the foolishness should be banned from flying on any passenger carrying airline.They can fly with DHL or FedEx.This is serious business since we are told there was zero evidence of the presence of alcohol in the captain’s body.In respect of having testing kits at the GAIA,this would depend on how often this type of incident is reported to the authorities and who did the reporting etc..I think it’s unlikely to be a requirement,actually it’s laughable if GAIA gets a reputation for random testing of pilots.You might say goodbye to Tourism one time.

  40. ac Avatar
    ac

    Now the comments some what have veered into am area of speculation given only have of one eye witness account.
    It is obvious that Plt wants to see this irate passenger punished although he/ she has not said how and in what manner
    However beneath all of the comments and suggestions there should be a real concern by the pilots association that in there quest for punishment that another legal matter can erupt from another concern which hinges on obstruction which can give cause of permanently sealing the mouths of concerned passengers in matters of safety
    The passenger in question might have been all wrong in area of attitude but the question which goes to the heart of the the issue remains relevant and plausible as the root cause for everything that occured.

  41. Artax Avatar
    Artax

    PltFlyng December 30, 2016 at 5:53 PM #

    “I find some of these comments disingenuous.”

    @ PltFlying

    And some may say they find your comments ludicrous.

    How can you correlate someone going “into a store in Bridgetown and caused $40,000 bds or equivalent in damage” to LIAT having to incur accommodation costs due to the cancellation of a flight?

    Stores prepare for such eventualities by purchasing the appropriate insurance coverage and an airline would budget for contingencies.

    The important point you are conveniently overlooking is the fact that, as reported by the press, the co-pilot said the pilot was using a “wet wipe” prior to entering the plane. The (co-pilot) opened a pack of wipes, which he asked the passengers to smell. We all know some brands of “wet wipes” smell like alcohol; does the co-pilot’s actions not suggest that there was actually a “fragrance” of alcohol?

    You mentioned “making false accusations wildly in public.”

    Are you in possession of any evidence to substantiate if the passengers were being intentionally mischievous or malicious when they said they smelled alcohol on the pilot as he walked through the aisle, other than your personal opinion?

  42. de pedantic Dribbler Avatar
    de pedantic Dribbler

    @Pltflying, actually I think the comments have been quite ingenuous really. From the very first one by Mr Artax which framed things quite well (opened my eyes really) right on down they have been generally good.

    No one disputes that false accusations must be pursued. And that is the key …it is only ‘false’ when so proven. And in a case such as this can you also prove that it was ‘slanderous’ as done with intent to falsely accuse. Can you?

    If the passenger created a riotous situation or whatever then the law should deal with that. That’s not the bailiwick of the pilots.

    So no one disputes investigating the lady, but what does ‘your’ association have to do with that.

    Maybe your public releases should validate the regs under which your pilots fly – the stringent ones that would prevent a pilot flying drunk – also they should reinforce your public image and confidence as reputable professionals who would not betray their passengers in that way; affirm that none have ever done that since the inception of LIAT blah, blah.

    Can that be done? If not, what does your group gain from prosecuting this passenger!

    Yes David, correct an independent body. My view was LIAT et al pay for the stuff and have it available to the police or whomever.

    Back to Mr Pltflying, this is simple. If this had happened often before or if one plane had even been badly landed or passengers otherwise placed in legal peril because of an inebriated pilot we would NOT be having this discussion.

    Something would have been long in place… so I see it as LIAT saving themselves pain and cost. Simple cost-benefit maths. So obviously the ‘cost’ outweigh the benefits at the moment of breathalyzer devices.

    You suggests that there is a process in place to deal with these issues and that the burden is on the regulators to do more if needed.

    So is it that the system just didn’t work that night in time to make the flight??

    This is not an either- or matter. Rather it’s about running a business as efficiently and with passenger trust as much as possible so if LIAT wants to cancel flights and screw their entire process rather than have a functional process (internal or otherwise) to resolve whether a person is drunk then so be it.

  43. lawson Avatar
    lawson

    Antrax are saying wet wipes are cheaper than gum

  44. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right - INRI Avatar
    Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right – INRI

    This is not rocket science

    1.I am flying on a plane and the pilot smells of alcohol and i protest that state as a passenger who doan wants to dead quite yet whu is de problem with that?
    2.If trace elements of explosives on the hands of passengers, or excess clorox (known to mask the smell of some explosives) is detected on a passengers hands and TSA pull them out of the line to perform additional test, if such examination makes one loose one’s flight upon whom does one place the blame of a vigilant TSA agent when plastique is found in his fake leg?
    3.De Pedantic Dribbler speaks to the immediate purchase of breathathlyzers for airports, whu wrong wid dat? De minibus menses are required to purchase a relatively expensive fire extinguisher and to keep it serviced as a protection in the event of a fire. Yet when was the last time that there was such a fire in a minibus?

    There only has to be one incident to prove all this righteous indignation of the airline pilot who “instead of drinking the rum seemed to have ‘nointed with it”, it will only take one incident before we all come here and say how “such a provision at all airports is good sense.”

    It is like how concerned we all pretended to be when Alleyne Arthur was struck by a ZR van, had our former PM died, as die we all shall, during said incident all the lax laws agains ZR drivers would be on our lips, one or two passed, MTW employees on the roads for 9 days and then the MTW minister and his permanent secretary would have said enough since “dem fellers stopping my 15 Minibuses from mekking money when the week come”

    Looka, I like i gine and hibernate again causing did turning out to be de same old same old

    Pitful is a bajan who is a member of the LIAT board and has come, as do most bajans with secrets, to talk out de innards of de LIAT affair.

    One knows that he is a Bajan causing he exposing board secrets as well as when he is asked to spend $200 pun a breath analyzer kit we all see dat he multiply 13 member states by that $200 and dat $2600 got he frighten dat i gine brek de LIAT bank account.

    Unna bajan is real cheap doah

  45. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    What is hard about administering a breathalyser test? Is this not a simple, routine procedure performed all over the world by ordinary cops (except in brass bowl land of course – where it is much too complicated to get it going)
    Indeed, why is this not randomly – (even routinely) done on pilots on entry into the departure lounge by the screening security personnel?

    Given the culture, it is altogether conceivable that a few pilots would occasionally fire a drink, and in the absence of ANY procedures by the airline to deter such idiocy, IT IS THE RIGHT OF PASSENGERS to be vigilant …AND to warn others of their suspicions.

    The fact that the passenger was SATISFIED with initial assurances that all was well, and then subsequently that the incident was escalated by the pilots and LIAT …suggest a feeling by the pilots that they are beyond question….
    Lotta shiite!!

    That pilot could – (and should) have personally assured the passenger that he was sober; (have been able to take a quick breathalyser test) …and to go on with the schedule like clockwork.

    This demonstrates the level of mediocrity and pettiness that accounts for the gross inefficiency of this organisation called LIAT.
    A case of small minds taking offence at genuine safety (even if uninformed) concerns.

    What ban what passenger what??!!
    Train the damn pilots in BASIC professionalism.

  46. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Sorry Piece
    Had the bushman seen your post above, he would have save the little gas in the damn whacker…

  47. ac Avatar
    ac

    David

    The fact that the irate ‘disruptive ‘ passenger was willing to fly with the suspected intoxicated pilot when the flight was cancelled reveals a level of maliciousness.

    it can also reveal that after some of the passengers concerns were addressed the passenger felt less hesitant but more relieved and made a judgement call to travel on the plane with the assigned pilot rather than have to forego the flight or wait another few hours before departing on another flight

  48. Sargeant Avatar
    Sargeant

    Airline travel can be extremely stressful, coupled with the fact that some people are nervous flyers airline personnel should expect anything. Everyone wants to get to their destination safely, if a traveler smells alcohol on the breath of a pilot there should be a quick means of investigating the issue. Pilots have the same vices as every other person and we live in a climate of “if you see something, say something”. I expect Fire Stations serving the Airport to have fire retardation equipment that would be suitable for extinguishing fires caused by aviation fuel, similarly I expect an Airport Police Station to have a breathalyzer kit to resolve issues arising from accusations of drinking by pilots. If it has never happened before is no reason not to have one, this whole sorry incident could have been settled one way or another by having the proper equipment on hand.

  49. PltFlyng Avatar
    PltFlyng

    I am most definitely not a liat board member. I am a pilot however and have been around the block enough to know a few things.

    The responsibility for things like breathalysers rest with the regulatory agencies and the other security authorities. If there is none at GAIA then that is a failing of GAIA and not of liat. Liat is not the only operator using the airport the burden for such should not be placed on them alone.

    Truth be told I am not surprised. Barbados has its own civil aviation authority yet in 17 years I have never once been spot checked (documents/aircraft etc) in BGI by the authorities. I have been ramp checked from time to time every where else by other authorities but never Barbados. Yet my government (yes I am a bajan) employees civil aviation inspectors who seem to be permanently missing in action.

    I think you are failing to understand what I am getting at. This passenger cost the company a sizeable amount. You can argue what you like however one fact remains. If that person was not comfortable the could have opted to remove them self from the flight. You are not forced to travel if you do not wish.

    As for the example of the tsa agent that example is flawed. By entering the secure airport you agree to screening and so have in essence have agreed to additional scrutiny if it is so merited and this is required. Failure to comply will result in you being allowed access to the secure side. In this case however there is no fundamental requirement for any pilot to prove that he was not consuming alcohol to any passenger. While this may not sit well it is a legal fact there are only 2 entities can make this demand the regulator (via statute) and the employer via contractual agreement. If a passenger is not comfortable with that again I say they are free to remove them selves.

    Truth be told it does not affect the individual pilot personally that much. The accused pilot in that case came off the aircraft went to the clinic had his blood drawn to be tested and then went home. He slept in his own bed that night and got paid anyway. Who was inconvenienced was the 47 other people and the airline. They are the one that paid the cost of that incident and for them I feel sorry and for their sake I think it should be pursued.

  50. Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right - INRI Avatar
    Piece Uh De Rock Yeah Right – INRI

    @ PitFlyng

    You are correct (partially) that it should be the airport authority/police that should be the primary holder of said equipment but you dun know GAIA for all these years AND WITH REGARD TO DEM POLICE, at the airport or otherwise, de likelyhood of them having such equipment is akin to the ability of the Jolly Roger to land at Grantley Adams – nil.

    Your written “passion and partiality” to the incident suggested “a locus” to the matter where you had/have more information than the average bear.

    I was going to suggest a pilot as the alternative but heheheheheheh felt that LIAT member had more ammmmm sensational factor to it, heheheheheheh de ole man like dat sometimes.

    You may even know the pilot, or someone very close to the pilot, because your narrative chronicles the incident with a precision that another passing commentator would not have provided.

    Dat be the thing bout profiling – the verbs that are used are either subjective or objective given “the locus” of the suspect.

    Do you like coffins?

    Have you ever been locked in a coffin? Is you a Lodge student from de ole days?

    Well for the most part a plane is a flying coffin where, for the minutes that you are suspended in that flying bullet, placed you in the hands of 2 sophisticated ZR bus drivers and like a coffin, you nor I cant generally see what is right in front of us, e.g. “how de steering wheel pop out or de brakes pop out (like that incident years ago on our East coast” or the flaps of the aircraft are not working like the Russian Tupolov? and their orchestra last week.

    So we are in that vessel at the whims and fancies of fellers who may have just come from a wife (or husband) who going lef dem fuh a nex man OR WOMAN, de ole man gots to be politically correct nowadays) and he decides “I ent got nuffin to live for no more and we going doing”

    Add to that the ubiquitous mixture of some Alleyne Arthur, no, not the cousin, the former …., and we have some real problems dont we, for those few minutes that we put our lives in the hands of dem 2 ZR drivers.

    Once i jogged 7 miles after the driver of a vehicle I was is, though totally inebriated, refused to relinquish the keys, and nothing happened to him and the other occupants that night, but de ole man was not tekking no chance wid a drunk driver.

    Tell your pilot friends to wear Old Spice or someting to cover the alcohol causing dem going got to ban de ole man from de airplane too effing de pilot got dat Cockspur look and smell bout he.

    Speaking of which, i.e. drivers and pilots and people in charge of a vehicle dat intoxicated all de time, would you care to make a comment about Pornville and his DLP colleagues?

    Is dem not “driving” theBajan economy into the ground while commandeering the vessel of government, namely HMS Barbados with 270K bajans on board? (and 40K illegal Guyanese of whom Leacock de dpp is their leader, dont forget that chant)

    I see Frustrated Business Man leading the cry about them drunken DLP drivers and wanting them to release the reins, you tink dat he should get ban from de plane, read cuntry, too?

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