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Submitted by Charles Knighton

PTSDIn the Nation of January 12, Mark Boyce in an article called Time We Let Go Of Flogging pointed to Sweden as a place that has abolished flogging and is a better society, with less theft, drugs, rape, murder and so on. But he didn’t mention that the Swedes have almost completely driven God out of their lives.” Be Our Guest column “In favour of corporal punishment by Daley Reneldo Reece, January 22.

We can always be sure of three things whenever a writer favours corporal punishment:

  1. The claim will be made that no causal effect exists between corporal punishment and subsequent aggressive behaviour exhibited by the victim of said punishment.
  2. We will be reminded of Proverbs 23:13-14.
  3. The writer will declare that despite the “hot licks” received as a youngster, he or she became a citizen of good character.

What these individuals seem unable to grasp is the known fact that similar stressors in life affect people differently. It has been estimated that approximately 23 percent of US military personnel who served in the Iraq and Afghan wars suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. Even though experiencing similar stressors, about three-quarters don’t demonstrate PTSD symptoms and go on to lead productive lives. Knowing that, can we not assume that a percentage of those victims of corporal punishment will come to display deviant behaviour, while a large majority will not? If such an outcome is even possible, corporal punishment should cease.

As to the Eurobarometer poll cited in the same article, that just 18 percent of Swedes believe there is a god, I say bravo to their becoming doubly enlightened. I continue to read in the papers and hear on the radio good and anxious people asking how we would teach morality in the absence of God. This question has two implications. It first shows a lack of confidence among believers, as if they half know that faith is weak, and suspect that morality might also be so. Second, it insults unbelievers, as if we infidels might at any moment give ourselves over to slaughter and pillage.

The working assumption undergirding such a question is that we should have no moral compass if we were not somehow in thrall to an unalterable and unchallengeable celestial dictatorship. What repulsive nonsense. Such a question constitutes a radical attack on the very concept of human self-respect. It does so by suggesting that one could not do a right action or avoid a wrong one, except for the hope of a divine reward or the fear of divine retribution.

While the Swedes may seem avant-garde to many, they have actually reverted to the long-held belief of many philosophers: Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.


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103 responses to “Morality in the Absence of God”


  1. In order for there to be ‘OUGHT’ there must first be ‘IS’

    • If everything ultimately must be explained by the laws of physics and chemistry, help me understand what a moral value is (does it have mass, occupy space, hold a charge, have wavelength)?

    • How did matter, energy, time and chance result in a set of objective moral values? Did the big bang really spew forth “love your enemy?” If so, you have to help me understand that.

    • What makes your moral standard more than a subjective opinion or personal preference? What makes it truly binding or obligatory? Why can’t I just ignore it? Won’t our end be the same (death and the grave) either way?

    The old atheists did not want to have to face questions like these, so they simply denied the reality of objective moral values. The new atheists have thrown the door open. Let’s not make it easy for them. Let’s ask the hard questions in a winsome and engaging way.


  2. More nonsense from David. We have seen where atheism takes us. The Soviet Union. Stalin. China. Mao. North Korea.
    Human decency is an occasional impulse for most. The vast majority of people are predators, and without religion, they will behave like animals competing in an ecological system for scarce resources.
    And for God’s sake stop looking to Sweden for progress. The Caribbean must never become an androgenous society of same-sex marriages and effete, passive men.


  3. “Had Derby well whipped, and made Egypt shit in his month” from the diary of Thomas Thistlewood in reference to a negro slave who had the audacity to consume some sugar cane (Parker, 2011).

    The systemic practice of corporal punishment was institutionalised and became a learned behavioural norm on the plantation. The “enlightened” slave master certainly knew how to dish it out on his negro field slaves.

    Should we be so surprised that corporal punishment is still used as a tool of punishment in the Caribbean?


  4. @ David, I am currently reading a book called The Sugar Barons – Family, Corruption, Empire and War.

    Why has the corporal punishment method as practised by the European colonist been airbrushed out of Caribbean history. Do you not think that we in the Caribbean could learn an awful lot about ourselves if only we had the courage to candidly explore our past ?


  5. I saw this article as food for Zoe. Don’t feed the Zoes.

  6. de Ingrunt Word Avatar

    @Exclamer re “Why has the corporal punishment method as practiced by the European … Do you not think that we in the Caribbean could learn an awful lot about ourselves if only we had the courage to candidly explore our past ?”

    Correct me if I am wrong with the interpretation of your comment above, but why does our introspection start with the period of slavery…particularly the absolute perversion of contorting the heinous act of the sadistic flagellation with the continuing debate on corporal punishment.

    No doubt we have internalized and adopted many of the practices and habits of our ‘jailers’ but we have also reclaimed and restated over the many years several of the practices, traditions and habits of our kith and kin from Africa (Note, parental or school flogging can in no way be practically equated to the flagellation by slave masters).

    Yet we are very different because there has been a blend of the two cultures that ‘unfortunately’ had set us apart as the generations evolved from those original arrivals.

    So of course there should be no fear of introspection…if we are honest in our appraisals of our ancestral homeland even as we revisit the lengthy period of imprisonment and all that came with it appropriately.


  7. de Ingrunt Word January 24, 2016 at 3:53 AM #

    Correct me if I am wrong with the interpretation of your comment above, but why does our introspection start with the period of slavery…particularly the absolute perversion of contorting the heinous act of the sadistic flagellation with the continuing debate on corporal punishment.

    The symbol conjure /relive those moments of resentment felt by our forefathers and delivered in the most inhumane ways against an humane being Now for the black race to adopt or reinforce those symbols tangible or intangible is another form of psychological entrapment
    Any symbol or gesture that reminds the black race of the dark days of slavery is not a step forward and should be removed from the mind body and soul with quickness


  8. @ Exclaimer
    Hard work was also an institutionalised aspect of the Plantation days.
    Are you also suggesting that we adopt ‘liming’ as a sensible cultural response?

    The book is about albino greed….not morality.
    Indeed the main lesson from that book is the similarity between the 18th century sugar barons and the 21st century Digicel /Flow/ Emera barons…. and the apparent ongoing inability of black brass bowls to open their eyes and see…and their ears to hear.

    Our asses deserve to be flogged again…for such monumental folly.


  9. @Bush Tea

    You understand it well. We have moved from physical slavery and the chattel approach to economic slavery. See who controlled the finance companies both banks and non banks. Not to forget other companies that support. Look at the reluctance by Blacks to support both White and Black businesses. Our minds are still shackled.


  10. We have moved from physical slavery ” that is a dam lie! the black and less fortunate still over worked and under paid by the big white corporations


  11. The following link should serve to educate the dullards what is meant by physical slavery compared to mental/economic slavery.

    https://ehappy.wordpress.com/2011/01/30/we-are-physically-free-but-mentally-enslaved/


  12. really a link to explain to a black and to educate what is meant by physical slavery and mental/economic slavery are you kidding me, really ! Everything in context and mostly having to do with one’s life experiences . i can show you a link where people are still working hard for nothing at the expense of physical as well as economic slavery /bro don/t give me that intellectual bull sh.t


  13. Bro u fu up the world in your eyes ight have moved somewhere further along but the very same systems that keep some races poor and underpriveleged are still in placed every so often revisited and tweeted to protect the wealth of a few . Physical slavery is still alive and well but better disguise and more organized


  14. Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.

    A very true statement and each society develops and redevelops its decency/morality over time,as tribes conmingle and priorities change……that has always been the way of the world untill it was hijacked by religion.

  15. Jeff Cumberbatch Avatar
    Jeff Cumberbatch

    Indeed, Vincent, and religion may be used, misused or abused to effect the worst inhumanities. The connection is tenuous at best.


  16. Bro have you ever heard the term : pull yuhself up by the boot straps” Do you know what is the real meaning and to who it was referred” do you know that the same term is widely used today by those who owned and control the most wealth… (needless to say most of it stolen or inherited) to those who can not even buy a boot strap farther-less a boot . That is a reality of physical slavery when an individual in this modern day cannot survive off one job but when a few can control in excess off the physical labor of certain groups and races around the world
    Bro you must count your blessing they might be many/ when compared to the masses who have nothing not even enough energy after a hard day of physical work to even tie the boot

  17. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ Vincent Haynes January 24, 2016 at 9:10 AM
    “A very true statement and each society develops and redevelops its decency/morality over time,as tribes conmingle and priorities change……that has always been the way of the world untill it was hijacked by religion.”

    So the Age of Aquarius is beginning to pour down its early watery effects of Enlightenment on the spiritual state of monkey man.
    The recent ‘probable’ discovery of another planet estimated to be 10 times the size of Gaia should tell you something.

    Here is a ‘snidbit’ of what’s in store.
    The Internet will become the modern-day God and its religion(s) will be promulgated through its ‘holy book’ called social media.
    Put that in your pipe and smoke it like the real weed, Dear Vincent!


  18. millertheanunnaki January 24, 2016 at 9:55 AM #

    Chuckle……nothing to doubt in your above…..humanoids must always find a way to mash up…


  19. @Vincent

    You first position can’t be refuted by anyone, racism, prejudice, bigotry, yardfowlism are all man made constructs. If is unfreezing them and charting a new way that should be occupying our time. Let us move on from the sandlot rehashed positions a few here feel comfortable retreating.


  20. How can persons – namely Vincent and Jeff, who confess to total ignorance about God, spirituality and religion, be so dogmatic in disputing the pre-eminent role that these play in the establishment of human decency?
    None of the leading scientists in this world (and that includes Bushie) risks to claim a through understanding of man’s consciousness. A leading researcher in brain science recently confessed TOTAL ignorance of how exactly the brain relates to personality, memories, love, emotions etc…. and expressed total amazement that a few nondescript brain cells can represent such exhaustive qualities.

    There appears to be an unexplainable, unearthly component that defines that aspect of man, as opposed to ANY other living entity.

    In fact, without God, not only can there be no morality…. there could be no ANYTHING.

    Wunna just lucky that Bushie just overhauled the whacker; loaded up new string; and got everything polished up and shiny…… and reluctant to nasty um up right now with this kinda shaving cream….
    Check back tomorrow …. 🙂

    Cat piss and pepper…


  21. David January 24, 2016 at 10:04 AM #

    Without any emperical evidence,my feeling is that these traits are the responsibilty of a particular rogue gene(s) which would also include killing and can be found in all creatures.

    Logically the purpose of all creatures,of which we are one,on earth is to multiply and die,strangely enough no role has ever been identified for us to be part of the eco-system,which allows for speculation as to our presence here and if we like miller came from somewhere else.

    Note all of the above is pure speculation other than the multiply and die bit.


  22. @Vincent

    Le the discussion continue brother!


  23. @Bush Tee
    None of the leading scientists in this world (and that includes Bushie) risks to claim a through understanding of man’s consciousness.
    ++++++++++
    Thanks for giving me a hearty laugh today, why include others as leading scientists when you could grab the whole hog all by your lonesome.

    Modest aren’t we all


  24. @Sargeant

    It appears you do you level best to stoke the ire of the bushman…lol.


  25. So David please tell all and sundry How does a mind become unfrozen after many years of being indoctrinated with all that which you have mentioned . Please note that yardfowlism is an exception rather than the rule simply a political football which garners attention and subject to many changes depending on whose interest it serves


  26. @ David
    That is the wont of NCOs…. making mock sport at the officers behind their backs…
    Secretly – of course you know that they revere the commissioned officers….

    @ Sargeant
    Bushie was just being honest…. and modest… yes…
    Not that it really counts for much in a world of brass bowlery…
    but if only you knew just how much Bushie knows…. 🙂


  27. Vincent Haynes January 24, 2016 at 12:13 PM #

    Logically the purpose of all creatures,of which we are one,on earth is to multiply and die,strangely enough no role has ever been identified for us to be part of the eco-system,

    Really ! and what do you think happens to our decaying dead bodies there is where the humans role become important to the preexistence of other forms of life which starts in the ecosystem , man is basically earth composed with all the natural elements and composite that generates life formation


  28. Which came first – the chicken or the egg? We speak with such certainty when we have NO PROOF either way.

  29. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ Vincent Haynes January 24, 2016 at 12:13 PM
    “Logically the purpose of all creatures,of which we are one,on earth is to multiply and die,strangely enough no role has ever been identified for us to be part of the eco-system,which allows for speculation as to our presence here and if we like miller came from somewhere else.”

    What you postulate makes for good discussion.
    Are you implying we are no different in the grand scheme of things as any other life form on this speck of rock and water in some far-flung corner of a distant quadrant of some galaxy nicknamed Mary’s Womb?

    Is that why humans must eat, sleep and fo*p, piss and shit to survive?
    That’s only 98% of the human make up, just like the bonobo chimp.

    The other 2% genetically-modified DNA allows human to gaze at the stars and wonder. It also allows humans to point to or look up in awe when referring to their gods. It allows humans to want to travel to distant “worlds” in the heavens to meet their genetic ‘modifiers’.

    Now cogitate on these ponderous things, Dear Vince.


  30. LOL @ Miller
    2%…?
    TWO percent ???

    …you almost as bad as Stinkliar with the fractions boss…


  31. millertheanunnaki January 24, 2016 at 2:04 PM #

    Chuckle….ole scout,I must agree with BT it is quite a bit more than 2%.

    From the Dawn of the humanoid civilisation on earth,we has been lookin to the skies sensing an affinity to something out there,we have never been able to quantify it,some are agnostic like me and await proof of such magnitude that one is convinced whilst some conclude that nothing from nothing is nothing and others go mad on burning bushes and invent all sorts of gods.

    Mans quest only ends at death.


  32. @David

    Bushie’s outlandish statements make him an easy target, I hold back on so many things.

    BTW you once claimed that Bushie was a mover and shaker in Bajan civil society I can only presume he knows where the brass bowls are buried since he was responsible for creating many of them.


  33. @Sargeant

    Don’t be fooled!


  34. The agnostic has built a protective shield of denial in their avoidance of having to believe or an endeavor the pursuit of God . No one who has set foot on this earth with an ability to comprehend life with all its good and with all its bad has not at any single moment in time pursue a quest for an image of God
    By nature man are adventurers problem solvers and always seize the opportunity to look inwardly as well as outwardly and as far away that the mind can take us seeking answers
    The question of belief is entirely up to mans perception or acceptance of who we are and where we are going


  35. @ David
    Why don’t you leave Sargeant? He may be on to something…


  36. What do creationists believe? On Day Five of Creation Week, God created “every winged bird according to its kind” (Genesis 1:21). God created mature birds with the ability to reproduce. So the bird was first, ready to lay eggs.

    The Fossil record, repeatedly, confirm the Genesis Creation account; not one transitional Fossil has ever been found.

    This IS* empirical science evidence, factual evidence, that ALL life on earth were Created by Almighty God.


  37. @ de Ingrunt Word January 24, 2016 at 3:53 AM,

    There exists a lexicon of words and phrases used specifically within the Caribbean region to describe levels of aggression that an individual may utilise to describe a form of punishment against another.

    “Man put some lashes on her”
    “Box her down”
    “You are going to get a beating when your father comes home”
    “Give her some licks”
    To put someone under heavy manners.

    Such language is primordial and savage. The art of communication becomes lost and the narrative will conclude with an act of violence.

    When I was growing up one of our neighbours was Jamaican. They had a habit of beating their kids with an electrical wire!

    This learned habit that we refer to as corporal punishment was not picked up from our African ancestors. Rather it was ingrained in our ancestor’s consciousness through their brutalisation on the plantation by white Europeans.


  38. The onus is on the BU Cretins to produce science based evidence to refute Creation!

    Not speculation, and fairy tales, based on science FICTION!

    BTW, religion(s) ALL of them from antiquity, FALSE religions, came to utter ruination.

    The only ancient religious Worldview, across comparative difficulties, premised on warranted credible evidence and facts is The Historic Judeo/Christian Worldview.


  39. Why is it so difficult to understand that a parent,a teacher,a mentor when unable to reason with their charge,revert to the humanoids base response of violence.

    We are that way programmed.


  40. @Zoe,
    There is a subject called Comparative Anatomy.


  41. Alvin Cummins January 25, 2016 at 6:31 PM #

    @Zoe,

    There is a subject called Comparative Anatomy.

    Alvin, Comparative Anatomy, does NOT = Common Descent, but rather, Uncommon Descent, by SAME designer, using similar functional biological aspects; that why the Fossil record, still say NO, as not one transitional fossil has ever been found; they ALL appear abruptly, that IS* fully FORMED, as they ALL were Created in the first place!


  42. what were the similarities and differences between the Bentley the Morris Oxford and the Austin Cambridge

    were these not because these cars were made by the same people?

    if men could do this, could not God do the same or better

    There is a subject called Comparative Anatomy my big toe


  43. @Georgie Porgie, and Zoe
    ,
    Why do you have one big toe on each foot? Why not 10 big toes?
    Horses once had five toes on each foot. They became fused into one hoof. Lots of other evidence for evolution.
    Question. Who made God the first?


  44. the Bentley the Morris Oxford and the Austin Cambridge were made on the same chassis and made by men
    these cars had their similarities and differences
    BUT IGNORANT MEN DONT THINK THAT GOD CAN MODIFY THE SAME PRINCIPLS TO MAKE MAMMALS THE WAY THEY ARE


  45. God ways are higher than mans so why would God use man principles to create or modify his creations


  46. @Alvin
    …so Boss, when you passed by Coverley and saw those lotta houses looking “samie- samie” …did that suggest to you that the whole thing evolved? ……or that the DLP Trinity of Jerkham, McMoney and Lashes were behind the whole thing….?


  47. @Alvin,

    If Evolution is true, taking place over MILLIONS of years, gradually transitioning from Microorganisms to Fish; then from Fish to Reptiles; from Reptiles to Mammals, then to Man, is it not logical, to expect to find, as Darwin presumed MILLIONS of transitional FOSSILS, embedded in the rocks, etc, etc?

    But, the contrary empirical EVIDENCE of the Fossil record, over and over again, emphatically confirm the Creation Model every time!

    Do you have any idea how vastly complex a single cell organism IS? This is what Darwin claimed started out as life on earth; he was obviously not aware of the complexity of a single cell organism!

    If evolution did occur, it can ONLY be by the discovery of FOSSILIZED remains of representative samples of those intermediate types, which have been postulated by evolutionists scientists.

    In other words, the really crucial evidence for evolution MUST be provided by paleontologist, whose business it is to study the evidence of the fossil record.

    They KNOW that the FOSSILIZED remains, do NOT lend any support to the THEORY, not fact of evolution. So what do they then do?

    They fabricate all kinds of pseudo-science JARGON, that has NO bases in TRUE science, to try to keep alive a DEAD theory, which is really an philosophical IDEOLOGY, ( NOT science at all!) of rabid atheism, haters of Almighty God and His Omnipotent Created order of ALL life on earth.


  48. By studying each member of the ‘toe vestiges,’ we can discover fingerprints of the Divine Creator and gather evidence to refute Darwin’s false assumptions.

    The Hoof

    The equine hoof—a testimony to design
    The hoof, or equine foot, is vital to a horse’s existence. This horny structure is located on the very end of a horse’s leg. Hooves play such a crucial role in the health and well-being of the horse that the old adage, ‘No hoof, no horse’ is true.

    To study the equine foot uncovers a structural wonder which causes farrier, veterinarian, and layman alike to marvel. Here are just some of the tasks the hoof is designed to perform:

    Absorb shock.
    Provide traction.
    Assist the heart in pumping blood.
    Resist wear and fracturing.
    Protect the sensitive structures within the hoof wall.
    Support body weight. (Front hooves carry 60% and rear hooves 40% of the actual body weight.)
    Conduct moisture throughout the hoof wall.

    Horses NEVER had toes, as these stupid evolutionists contend, NONSENSE!


  49. A recipe must have a chef, a portrait must have a painter, and a creature must have a Creator. As Christians, we can rejoice that humans and all other creatures are not remnants of thoughtless evolution, but creatures skillfully designed by our Lord and Creator.

    As Revelation 4:11 declares, ‘Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created ALL things, and for thy pleasure they are and were CREATED.’

  50. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ Zoe January 26, 2016 at 8:39 PM
    “They KNOW that the FOSSILIZED remains, do NOT lend any support to the THEORY, not fact of evolution. So what do they then do?
    They fabricate all kinds of pseudo-science JARGON, that has NO bases in TRUE science, to try to keep alive a DEAD theory, which is really an philosophical IDEOLOGY, ( NOT science at all!) of rabid atheism, haters of Almighty God and His Omnipotent Created order of ALL life on earth.”

    We can now see why Noah took two donkeys with no hooves into the Ark. So that their asinine vestiges can be found today in the fossilized brain of a jackass called Zoe.

    Yes paleontologists “fabricate all kinds of pseudo-science JARGON” just like how pseudo-Christians like you have fabricated (and stolen) all sorts of myths and legends stolen from early civilizations and even recently from Paganism and Mithraism.

    Of course you, Zoe, would dismiss any scientific evidence that supports the occurrence of an ice age more than 6,000 years ago.
    You would also reject the ‘fossil’ evidence of the woolly mammoth which Noah refused entry into his Ark in case it interbred with his prized elephants and left to die on the frozen steppes of Siberia and Alaska.

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