Submitted by Crusoe (as a comment on the Haiti We Are Sorry blog
You list some good ideas for the structural retransformation of Haiti [Responding to Commenter Dictionary on the Haiti We Are Sorry blog]. Each in of themselves they do not depend on improved education but do depend on improved technical training (farming etc). However, for all, the long-term success of those initiatives individually and collectively leading to a successful Haiti will certainly also depend on improved education, if as we have been informed, the literacy level is so low.
This has two implications.
Firstly, immediately after initial search, rescue, medical, temporary (short and medium term) and security issues have been addressed as priority, the early reformation must include an immediate education programme, for adult and youth, such that the transformation of Haiti can begin with the active participation of her people, not as ‘serfs’ but as active individuals and communities with an understanding of the reasoning behind the methods and the aim of the methods.
I must add, that ‘transformation’ in this context is not meant to refer to bringing Haiti to the same philosophical outlook as anyone other specific group. In this context it is meant to refer to bringing Haiti to a level of self-capability and self-determination. Now, to expect say a three or four year ‘crash course’ in education and technical skills may seem either impossible or unrealistic, but unfortunately, if this is not done as one of the foundations of the rebuilding (in the context of not only structural, but as a nation of people), than all else may eventually prove futile.
This is obviously along the lines of the old phrase of teaching a man to fish instead of giving him the fish. Merely putting up structures, farms etc may certainly alleviate some misery, but while in the short term foreign contractors etc may gain much from the aid given for this purpose, the long-term goal should be to have Haitians and not only elite, but the everyday Haitian, benefit from money flows and thus create an independent people and a vibrant economy.
It is my view therefore Caricom leaders, should address the education of Haiti, as a priority, as much a priority as any other redevelopment effort.
To reinforce a point, the initial effort must not only be to set up an improved schooling system, but implement as an interim measure, an ’emergency education programme’, with the help of international authorities and the Haitian authorities. If one wants a long-term Haiti, this is essential.
We must give thanks yet again, that Errol Barrow saw the necessity of education as a developmental tool. And, we must forever resist ANY attempts to take free education from Barbadians. Indeed, those of us who wish for an improved world, must seek the furtherance of a sound even if basic education, for all peoples, as a necessity for development.
1,421 responses to “The Reconstruction And Transformation Of Haiti: A Global-Moral Imperative”
PS: Watch this . . . a world class Indian IT entrepreneur — just hired 25 k in one year . . . — speaks at INSEAD:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfw_TaSCayY&hl=en_US&fs=1&]
@Dictionary
It is laudable to discuss some of the issues you are raising but how will the Caribbean governments be able to influence policy in Haiti given what we are seeing.
@GP
“Would you agree that the church was fairly sound in the first 300 years of its existence? There was then trulye church one faith one Lord!”
And it is who you trying to fool? The reason for Constantine bringing all them together in 325 A.D. was because of the discord and the fact that by then, there were over 400 denominations; (I.E. DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF THE SAME TEXTS).
Hence Constantine wanted one creed to end the turmoil. He basically placed all 365 bishops that attended from the different denominations and faiths under arrest until they came of one accord; they could not leave.
These fairy tales. What church sound what? It was a fledgling religion full of controversy and blood.
@Dick
“Truth is not an ideology owned or monopolised by any individual or class…”
Well you could have fooled me. As far as your truth is concerned, it is a belief, a faith in a pie in the sky; even worse than an ideology as the basis of truth.
@ The ROK,
You can take over from here. These blowhards here got me all drained, physically, emotionally, and mentally but not yet spiritually! I outa hey fuh now, so over to you.
“Even though he will be cursed for evermore for his ideas…”
Is that really what they are? Ideas? Well then your statement does ring true that, “BU is frequented by bullshitters and big mout idiots who have very little to offer except snide remarks and rants and raves…”
and, “Hilarious! These folk who claim to be 98% literate. But 0% in terms of comprehension.”
Thanks for the insight on Dick.
David:
Passed by as I was shutting down.
First thought: we are members of the same regional confederation as Haiti!
Namely, Caricom.
We have similar history, and relevant experience and expertise; once we move beyond the stuck on resentment position.
The Haitians are asking for our help [you posted the appeal/ petition of the Haitian youth to Caricom . . . ] — help which does not come with painful historical reminders and questions, and/or issues over possible ambitions.
We start with consultations, ideas, discussions, pilot projects with partners: Haitian, Indian, Chinese, Brazilian, Cuban, African, Latin American, Norteamericano, Euro, whoever. (Some of the pilots are already on the ground, what has worked is likely to work again.)
We show what works, using exemplars from around the world.
We adapt to our circumstances and we try out to make pilots. We pull in historical partners such as Canada, Europe, USA — as partners not as the top bananas.
We show what works in target zones — as China began with initial zones.
We scale up and spread out.
A good place to begin is with reconstruction on sustainable building technologies.
Moladi heads that short list.
The Hebel type autoclaved aerated concrete is good for bigger buildings that are not amenable to being set up as moulds to be cast.
For rural areas, we can look to compressed earth with reinforcement [calling Auroville, India, calling Auroville India . . . ], to bahareque etc.
And that brings in Guadua etc as a new timber technology — check out glubam as just one way to go.
Digitalising education, OLPC etc, and the creation of networked schools that are centres of community renewal look like a quick win.
From these bases, we begin to push for distributed development that balances town and country.
Remember, e.g. guadua loves hills and it is a great ground cover, and has a 5 – 7 year crop cycle. The pines grown in Ja — they have gone wild — are worth a look as they will help recover so much of Haiti’s forests. (Mahogany is probably gone for generations to come, pity. I was awed by some of the old mahogany logs dug up from under Belize City — 5 – 6 ft diameter!)
Ethical organic crops including say coffee look good to me — don’t get into the deadly chemical insect war spiral that has harmed Jamaica so badly, please.
ICTs can enable a new information savvy, smart machine cellular manufacturing joined to mass customization e commerce marketing industrialisation that learns from the failings of the old linear production line sweatshop factory. The literature on socio-technical systems theory and praxis, coming out of Tavistock especially, is worth a thought. Gylenhammer and Udevalla of Sweden too.
A lot of the pioneering things should be done through using our Disaster Management offices as technology development and demonstration centres, as I discussed weeks ago.
For instance, I think the Life Trac is worth a look as a tractor we can develop for our selves. Biofuels can be produced on the first grounds that these are invulnerable to supply shocks and in key cases can be made out of plant materials we can simply pick up. PV and wind can be set up on small modular scales to power emergency and remote site equipment. The Grid Beam wood and metal prototyping system is astonishingly liberating — I’d have killed for it in my u/grad and p/grad research days!
(The Disaster Offices should be partnering with Engineering and Applied Science schools in our universities, with high tech incubators,and with hi tech firms . . . call it the poor man’s NASA.)
And of course business incubators are potential multipliers: they should be all over the place, starting with attached to our universities.
Others out there doubtless have oodles of ideas they have felt intimidated from sharing due tot he high hostility envronment aht has been put up above by those who have spent too much time cutting down not building up.
Well let’s do a bit of brainstorming: put down ideas and links for a day or two, no critiquing allowed: just label it a brainstorm contribution. (Separation of idea generation from idea evaluation — creating a safe space to put forth ideas — is a key to triggering creativity.)
Then after we have a large number in hand, let us all look at the list and see if we can see the outlines of a coherent regional strategy for rebuilding and redeveloping Haiti.
(You have enough of an audience that he ideas can get shared in key places fairly easily. I think it would be relatigvley easy to point the usual admin assistants at his blog thread and/or to scoop ourt ideas and then cluster them for onward evaluation and development towards going in on the ground.)
If you know a Haitian or two, why not point them here?
Or, do you want to do a separate Haiti help brainstorming thread; porting over ideas from this thread there?
And more, much more.
Of course, an integrated sustainable redevelopment strategy will turn Haiti into the test and development lab for the region — and well beyond. With Caribbean scientists, professionals, managers, entrepreneurs, thinkers etc on the ground building up experience in partnership with their Haitian and global counterparts. (Spell that: N-E-T-W-O-R-K-I-N-G.)
Then, we unleash the seasoned, expert Caribbean global transformation force . . .
Time for us to rethink our range of possibilities!
D
PS: I see ROK was not able to resist the temptations of carping and vulgarity. Sad.
@ ROK
Man, all the assembled churchmen @ Nicaea could not even agree with one another on the points being discussed. Would you believe that? Sounds kinda weird to me that all these big-ups in the church and you could not even get them to a common agreement. They had to VOTE!
Enter the Jackass (stage right)
Talking shite (as usual)
Typical example of snide remarks and rants and raves…”
Hilarious!
Dictionary could never be classified as 98% literate and 0% in terms of comprehension.
There is no text on Church History put out by any printing press or anyone else that states that Constantine brought the church together in AD 325.
There are no writings by the church fathers or anyone that indicate that there were over 400 denominations or different interpretations of the same texts prior to AD 313
Constantine was not even a believer; a fact that is very well documented.
Why would he want one creed when clearly the devil wanted turmoil. The devil failed to stamp out the church by persecution. He used Constantine to weaken it by corruption.
Poor Barbados.
Here the nonsense that issues forth from its so called leaders. My God. Our land is doomed!
Hood
Re your last post. Can you tell us how the vacancy among the apostles that came about by the suicide of Judas Iscariot was filled.
The folk that formed the very first church did what hood?……………THEY VOTED!
@ Anon
The folk that formed the very first church did what hood?……………THEY VOTED!
…………………………………………………..
OH REALLY!!
“Mr.” Anon
Who gave you the impression that the LORD’S church is a democracy?
Dictionary
have you written, emailed, contacted the Caricom Secretariat on your ideas. Have you contacted the Haitian Gov’t? What about the European Union? The US Gov’t, US AID, the IADB, the OAS, the CDB ( you should still have a contact or two there)? Anybody at all who might really be in a position to do something? Have you put all these ideas in a project document and approached say the World Bank and ask for $21 billion to rebuild Haiti? It seems not but yet you harassing me Onlookers Theobald Holder every day! Look my bank account got $517.54 and this is the middle of the month and you want me to fix Haiti!! Do what I tell you to do. Write the big shot multi-lateral agencies and tell us what they say.
On another issue, if all these big shot intellectuals after studying for plenty years and after reading plenty plenty books, concordances, Bible commentaries etc still can’t agree among themselves what are simple folk who got to work hard for a living to do? GP posted information on biochemistry sometime back. Nobody challenged him on the info. Why? Because it was correct. There is consensus among biochemists on the knowledge and where there are differing views, scientists are carrying out investigations and experiments to further our knowledge. Notice the difference with religion. Everybody got a say, there is no universally accepted reference/yardstick and and most notably god is silent to all this bickering.
@ ROK
My question is….. where were their “hermeneutics and sound exegeses” @ the Council of Nicaea?
Why did they have to VOTE? Just imagine all they could come up with at that Nicaea meeting was a figment of their imagination that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost was a single 3-headed being (sounds more like they were thinking of the many headed -dragon stories that we read about in childrens’ books)!!
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@”Mr.” Anon, please go check your history books again!
Onlookers T. Holder
GP posted information on biochemistry sometime back. Nobody challenged him on the info. Why? Because it was correct.
Man Holder they were some, here on BU who though clearly Biochemistry illiterates DID TRY TO CHALLENGE! LOL. It was fun!
The truth is that with respect to issues of the Bible that there are also a lot of Bible illiterates who think that they too should have their say. And there are in fact accepted reference/yardsticks for many things.
Do you know for example that most of the denominations come to gether and agree what should be aught in the various age groups about Bible stories….. before they separate to put out their own “quarterlies”.
From my reading of say many of the books cited in the e-sword library that Dictionary put up that these big shot intellectuals in the faith after studying for plenty years and after reading plenty plenty books, concordances, Bible commentaries etc actually do agree among themselves on most issues.
And by the way it is working men not only Bib;le teachers and pastors that read the books listed on e sword. I grew up with men and women who own these books and have been reading such since thier teens.
I have been into homes of ordinary lay men in severl countries and note that they own some/many of the books listed in the link Dictionary gave.
@”Mr”Anon,
You stated :- “There is no text on Church History put out by any printing press or anyone else that states that Constantine brought the church together in AD 325.”
…………………………………………………..
For your further education in history :-
The First Council of Nicaea was a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day İznik in Turkey) by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in A.D. 325. The Council was historically significant as the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom.[2]
This was copied from Wikipedia.
“There are no writings by the church fathers or anyone that indicate that there were over 400 denominations or different interpretations of the same texts prior to AD 313”
You so out of it that it is not worth the bother.
“Constantine was not even a believer; a fact that is very well documented.”
The exact point if you understand the analysis. This is an outsider telling them enough of this nonsense.
“Poor Barbados. Here the nonsense that issues forth from its so called leaders. My God. Our land is doomed!”
The only nonsense is yours. 365 bishops attended and it is known that a lot were left. The 365 were those who got there. Some started the journey and never got there. Others just did not come.
I really wonder who is ranting and raving. I find that your brand of christianity always accuses others of the very things you do. Go and read fella.
@the hood
“Just imagine all they could come up with at that Nicaea meeting was a figment of their imagination that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost was a single 3-headed being (sounds more like they were thinking of the many headed -dragon stories…”
Chinese adaptation. LOL!
@ “Mr” Anon,
For your enlightenment this is copied from Acts 1:24-26 :-
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
…………………………………………………..
They did not vote, Sir, they PRAYED for direction and then they cast LOTS!
…………………………………………………..
Of course by the time the Bible experts here are finished doing their “hermeneutics and sound exegeses” on this it may very well have a completely differtent perspective!
@ ROK
“Chinese adaptation”. Man yuh got muh hey deddin’ wid laugh!
I wonder wuh Sandi gine en up wid by de time he dun up dey!!
@ GP,
Doc,
Can you explain why human beings continue doing the SAME things the SAME way they have always done and after getting the SAME results they are still expecting a different outcome?
That unlearned, Pin-Head, has once again raised his dense folly and foolishness, from the Crab-Bucket where he resides, crawling all over the backs of other crabs, to see who can extol the greatest nonsense on matters of Church history!
First, there were NOT, ‘…400 denominations, (i.e., DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF THE SAME TEXT).”
That IS a gross misrepresention, as IS typically done by Mr. Pin-Head, of the historic facts.
‘The whole number of bishops assembled at Nicea was at most 318; that is, about one sixth of ALL the bishops of the empire, who are estimated as at least 1,800 (one third from the Greek provinces, 800 hundred from the Latin), and only half as many as were at the council of Chaldeeon. (History of The Christian Church, by Philip Schaff, Vol. 111, Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity, A.D. 311-600, pp. 623,624).
These very numbers of bishops, estimated as at least 1,800 from across the empire, from the Eastern provence, the Latin church, from France, Spain, from North Africa, et al, confirm how Post-Apostolic Christianity had ALREADY grown far and wide, with the majority of them, holding to, and teaching the FAITH, doctrine of the Apostles, …ONCE for ALL delivered to the Saints’ (Jude, Circa AD. 100), NOT 400 different denominations, NOT at all, but a centralized CORE of Post Apostolic, doctrine, and naturally, as to be espected, as it happened in the very Apostolic church, (Circa 33-100 A.D.) some differences would arise, as did the ‘Arian’ heresy, concerning the ‘Deity’ of Christ, which broke out about the year 318 or 320, which necessitated the Council of Nicea.
The Deity of Christ, IS central to, the Historic, Orthodox Faith of Christianity, as revealed throughout the NT documents, attested to by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, testified to by 500+ eyewitnesses, and the continued witness and rapid growth of Orthodox Christianity, throughout the empire, with an estimated 1,800 bishops scattered over many different regions at Circa 300 A.D.
Therefore, the immediate and direct concern of the council of Nicea, was only to establish the doctrine of the true *Deity* of Jesus Christ. The diety of the Holy Spirit, though inevitably involved, did not then come up as a subject of special discussion. It was the council of Constantinople which enlarged the last article concerning the Holy Spirit. To the postive part of the Nicene confession is added a condemnation of the Arian heresy, which dropped out the formula afterwards received. (Ibid., p. 629).
Again and again, we see here on BU, those who are genuinely ignorant, unlearned re certain subject matter, they then go to Wiki do a little reading, and come back to then pontificate on a subject matter, that they are grossly ignorant of, where volumes and volumes of Church history, that would take years to study, are then wrapped up in stupid, little quotes taken from Wiki!
@Zoe // February 15, 2010 at 9:26 PM
Oh sure!! “Mr” Zoe, and the moon is made of green cheese!
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All,
Hear ye, hear ye, so saith the gospel according to “Mr.” Zoe! And wunna betta doan tink ta questun he, hear! Otherwise, yuh is a demon!
“Therefore, the immediate and direct concern of the council of Nicea, was only to establish the doctrine of the true *Deity* of Jesus Christ.”
Are you a joker or what? The reason for calling all these bishops together was because they were always fighting and causing disturbances. This created an unnecessary expense for the state dispatching troops here and there and Constantine sought to end it. That is why he placed them under arrest until they came up with one creed.
Each one of those Bishops established their own denomination and interpreted the scriptures and laid emphasis on certain things as they saw fit. Religion was as diverse and divided as the amount of bishops that existed.
We talking about a time when communication and collaboration meant travelling great distances. There was so much discord in the empire that Constantine sought to end it.
What I forgot, you ain’t learn yet. I did not have to go to wiki to tell you that. As a matter of fact I have never looked up the Council of Nicea on any wiki. I relying on pure memory… but like I said, your brand always accuses others of exactly what you doing.
From the way that you brought it over, I can see that you definitely do not have a working knowledge of it or familiarity with the reports. You are all cut and paste; living in a fairy tale world that you hatching as you go along.
By the way, since you calling me a pinhead, and going by your MO, I see that you are the pinhead.
By the way, the only reason that Arius was rejected was because his way of interpreting the scriptures was radically different from prevailing views.
The problem was not the deity at all, it was about the practice. For example dates and events to be celebrated and to come to a final definition of the manifestation of god; i.e. the trinity. It was already being called christianity so the question of installing a deity is erroneous.
And all this talk about Constantine converting to christianity is a bare joke. Constantine was interested in one thing only, cutting down on the cost of restoring law and order. He promised them that he would make christianity the official religion if they came up with one creed, but he obviously did not care what they believed.
Even though these incentives were offered, let there be no mistake that Constantine was not letting them leave without consensus down to every man. There was one man that signed and then left the church. That is how dread it went down. Arius was exiled because he went down fighting to the end… but basically it was understood that those who were still holding out at the end would be punished.
Why Hood & The Mormons have problems with the Nicene Creed
I attach, as captioned.
HTML will be easy to scoop out excerpts from, PDF is useful as an all in one reference.
–Forwarded Message Attachment–
Mormonism notes:
1] Heb 1:1 – 14, linked at Bible Gateway [so you can incorporate it into a post]
Copy this to get a blue text link to Heb 1:1 – 14:
Heb 1:1 – 14
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%201:1%20-%2014&version=NIV
Hebrews 1:1-14 (New International Version)
Hebrews 1
The Son Superior to Angels
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father[a]”[b]? Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[c]? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[d] 7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”[e] 8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[g] 13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[h]? 14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Footnotes:
Hebrews 1:5 Or have begotten you
Hebrews 1:5 Psalm 2:7
Hebrews 1:5 2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chron. 17:13
Hebrews 1:6 Deut. 32:43 (see Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint)
Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
Hebrews 1:9 Psalm 45:6,7
Hebrews 1:12 Psalm 102:25-27
Hebrews 1:13 Psalm 110:1
2] The Nicene Creed:
–> Notice how richly biblical it is in its words and summarising sequencing, which centres on 1 Cor 15:1 – 11.
Book of Common Prayer version (1662)
I believe in one God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
And of all things visible and invisible:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God,
Begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
Very God of very God,
Begotten, not made,
Being of one substance with the Father,
By whom all things were made;
Who for us men, and for our salvation came down from heaven,
And was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary,
And was made man,
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate.
He suffered and was buried,
And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures,
And ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of the Father.
And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead:
Whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost,
The Lord and giver of life,
Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son,
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified,
Who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one Catholick and Apostolick Church.
I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.
And I look for the Resurrection of the dead,
And the life of the world to come.
Amen.[1]
3] CARM on Mormon beliefs documented from Mormon sources
–> Contrast with the Nicene creed, creedal NT texts and esp Heb 1:1 – 14
http://www.carm.org/mormon-beliefs
Mormon Beliefs, are they Christian?
There’s a lot of discussion about Mormon beliefs. So, in order to make this easy, I will list out what Mormonism actually teaches. These are not sensationalized, and inaccurate statements.
Following documentation from Mormon authors. Finally, please understand that the Mormon Church uses Christian terms but has radically changed the meanings of those terms. So, when it says that Mormons belief in the father the son and the Holy Spirit, they are really saying they believe in a God from another planet, with a goddess wife, who literally is the father of Jesus, and that there is a spirit being, the Holy Ghost, who is another God.
These are Mormon beliefs
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, known as the Mormons, teaches that God the father used to be a man on another planet, that he became a God by following the laws and ordinances of that God on that planet and came to this world with his wife (she became a goddess), and that they produce a spirit offspring in heaven. These spirit offspring, which includes Jesus, the devil, and you and me, are all brothers and sisters born in the preexistence. The preexistence spirits come down and inhabit babies at the time of birth and their memories of the preexistence are lost at the time. Furthermore, faithful Mormons, who pay a full 10% tithe of their income to the Mormon church through Mormon temples, have the potential of becoming gods of their own planets and are then able to start the procedure over again.
Is it Christian? No.
If you were to go to any Christian bookstore and look in the non-Christian cult section you will see numerous books on Mormonism that document Mormon beliefs as aberrant and un-Biblical. The Mormon Church is not considered a Christian church.
This is not simply an opinion that they are false; it is a fact that they teach abberant and unchristian theology. In fact, Jesus warned us about such groups when he said in Matthew 24:24 that in the last days many false Christs and false prophets will arise and deceive many. Mormonism is exactly that, a manifestation of a false prophet: Joseph Smith, who taught all these things.
The Bible does not teach that God came from another planet, or that he has a goddess wife, or that we can become gods. In fact, the Bible clearly and definitely contradicts those teachings. But, the Mormon Church responds by saying that the Bible is not really trustworthy, that the true faith was lost, and that its leader, Joseph Smith, restored the so-called “true” Christian faith: god from another world, becoming gods, goddess mother, etc. Of course, the Mormon Church’s claim is not true.
One question to ask the Mormon Church as a whole is why is it that it does not appoint a representative to publicly debate and answer the challenges of competent Christians who know not only the Bible, but what Mormonism teaches? Why is it that the Mormon Church refuses to have open dialogue and appoint a representative who would attempt to defend the LDS teachings from the Bible? Why does it refuse to do this? I believe it is because it doesn’t want to be made to look bad.
Mormon Beliefs documented
Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-Mormon writers:
Book of Mormon
The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461.)
Devil, the
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192.)
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
God
God used to be a man on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans…” (D&C 130:22).
God, becoming a god
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).
“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them,” (DC 132:20).
God, many gods
There are many gods (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
“And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light,” (Book of Abraham 4:3).
God, mother goddess
There is a mother god (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
God, Trinity
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
Heaven
There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial (Mormon Doctrine, p. 348).
Holy Ghost, the
The Holy Ghost is a male personage (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, p. 118; Journal of Discources, vol. 5, p. 179).
Jesus
“Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood – was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).
“Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh …” (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).
Joseph Smith
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).
Pre-existence
We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218).
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
Salvation
“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation,” (Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus’ plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to “deny men their agency and to dethrone god,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 92).
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).
“The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).
“As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements — ‘obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,’” (Articles of Faith, p. 79).
“This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts,” (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
“We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do,” (2 Nephi 25:23).
Trinity, the
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
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4] On the Book of Mormon
–> this is a foundational Mormon text, indeed the most foundational one, the one allegedly transalted with the golden spectacles
http://www.carm.org/problems-with-the-book-mormon
Problems with the Book of Mormon
The Book of Mormon is supposed to be the account of people who came from the Middle-East to the Americas. It covers the period of about 600 B.C. to 400 A.D. It tells of the Jaredites, people from the Tower of Babel who came to central America but perished because of their own immorality. It also describes some Jews who fled persecution in Jerusalem and came to America led by a man called Nephi. The Jews divided into two groups known as the Nephites and Lamanites who fought each other. The Nephites were defeated in 428 A.D.
The Lamanites continued and are known as the American Indians. The Book of Mormon is supposed to be the account of the Nephite leader who was called Mormon as he wrote concerning their culture, civilization, and appearance of Jesus to the Americas.
Joseph Smith said “that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book” (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461).
The Book of Mormon is not of God.
Subject
Reference
Verse
Problem
BOM Date
Adam’s
Fall
2 Nephi
2:25
Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
False: Men exist without Adam’s fall
Birth of Jesus
Alma
7:10
And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. CONTRADICTS Matt. 2:1, Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea
Alma 7:10 contradicts the Bible in Matt. 2:1
Cimeter (Scimitar)
Mosiah
9:16
And it came to pass that I did arm them with bows, and with arrows, with swords, and with cimeters, and with clubs, and with slings, and with all manner of weapons which we could invent, and I and my people did go forth against the Lamanites to battle. (See also Enos 1:20; Mosiah 10:8; Alma 2:12; 27:29; 43:18,20,37; 44:8; 60:2; Heaman 1:14)
Scimitars (Curved Swords) didn’t exist until the 500’s.
200-187 B.C.
Elephants
Ether
9:19
And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.
Elephants weren’t in America at the time of the BOM
NA
Honey
Bees
Ether
2:3
And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.
Honey Bees were introduced to America by the Spanish
NA
God Indwells the Righteous
Alma
34:36
And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb. CONTRADICTS D&C 130:3, “The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a manï’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.”
BOM contradicts D&C
Horses
1 Nephi
18:25
And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper. (Horses see 2 Nephi 12:7; 2 Nephi 15:28; Enos 1:21; Alma 18:9,10,12; 20:6; 3 Nephi 3:22; 4:4; 6:1; 21:14; Ether 9:19; )
Horses didn’t exist in America until the 16th Century
590-589 BC
Steel
1 Nephi
4:9
And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel. (See also 1 Neph 16:18; 2 Nephi 5:15; Jarom 1:8; Ether 7:9)
The Jews didn’t have steel at that time.
600-592 B.C.
Salvation
2 Nephi
25:23
For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. After all we can do
Salvation by works
Silk
Alma
4:6
And it came to pass in the eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel. Jews didn’t have silk then.
The Jews didn’t have silk at that time
86-83 B.C.
Sufficiently Humble
Alma
5:27
Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins? sufficiently humble
How do you become sufficiently humble?
Two Churches
1 Nephi
14:10
“And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.”
If non-Mormon church is the church of Satan, why is Mormonism trying to appear like it?
600-592 B.C.
The Book of Mormon vs. Mormon Doctrine
The Book of Mormon
Mormon Doctrine
There is only one God
Mosiah 15:1,5; Alma 11:28; 2 Nephi 31:21
Mormonism teaches there are many gods.
Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5.
The Trinity is one God
Alma 11:44; Mosiah 15:5; 2 Nephi 31:21
The Trinity is three separate gods.
James Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 35. 1985.
God is unchanging
Mormon 9:9,19; Moroni 8:18; Alma 41:8; 3 Nephi 24:6
God is increasing in knowledge.
Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 120.
God is spirit
Alma 18:24,28; 22:9,11
God has the form of a man.
Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3.
Eternal hell
Jacob 3:11; 6:10; 2 Nephi 19:16; 28:21-23.
Hell is not eternal.
James Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 55.
Polygamy condemned
Jacob 1:15; 2:23,24,27,31;3:5; Mosiah 11:2,4; Ether 10:5,7
Polygamy was taught and practiced.
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266.
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5] Joseph Smith as Prophet:
http://www.carm.org/false-prophecies-of-joseph-smith
Joseph Smith’s False Prophecies
Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormons, claimed to be a prophet of God. Was he a prophet of the true and living God? There are two ways to find out. First, compare what he says to Scripture and if what the Prophet teaches contradict Scripture, then he is false. The second way is to examine any prophecies that he has made. If a single prophecy fails, then the person is a false prophet.
Please note that having several fulfilled prophecies and even a single false prophecy still means that the person is not a true prophet of God. The test for a prophet is not if he gets them most right, but all right. The Bible tells us…
“But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 “And you may say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 “When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him,” (Deut. 18:20-22). emphasis added.
We can see that the criteria of a true prophet is not failing when predicting the future. This is because God, who is outside of time and the creator of the universe, makes no mistakes when he tells us what will happen. Those prophets whom he has called will not make a mistake and prophesy the future, since to do so would mean the person is not speaking on God’s behalf. Therefore, if anyone claims to be a prophet of God and speaks in the name of God and gives a prophecy that fails, then the person is not of God.
Did Joseph Smith make any prophecies? Yes he did. Here are just a few of his false prophecies.
False prophecies of Joseph Smith
History of the Church
Prophecy about Jesus’ return within 56 years – “President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion–our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189). See context.
Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived.
Doctrine and Covenants
Prophecy that the temple would be built in Missouri within Smith’s Generation – “Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house… 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed.” (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.) See context.
The Mormons were driven out of Jackson County in 1833. They were not gathered there in accordance to this prophecy dealing with building the temple.
The prophecy clearly states that the generation present when the prophecy was given would not pass away until the temple was built at the western boundaries of the state of Missouri which is in Independence. This clearly failed.
All Nations would be involved in the American Civil War – “Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations,” (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3). See context
This is clearly another false prophecy since all nations did not get involved in the American Civil War.
Prophesy that the earth will tremble and the sun be hidden in “not many days”: “For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree,” (Doctrine and Covenants 88:87) See context
The sun hasn’t yet been hidden nor has the moon hidden its face.
This prophecy was given on 12/27/1832. “Not many days hence”? Since the writing of this article on 6/22/06, it has been 63,364 days or 173 years, 5 months, 26 days. I think that 63,364 days is more than “not many days”.
For reference to January 1, 2000 it was 61,000 days (even), or 167 years, 5 days.
Pearl of Great Price
Prophecy that Isaiah 11 was about to be fulfilled – “In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when ‘they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,’ but soon would come,” (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, History, verse 40). See context
Isaiah 11:6-9 says, “And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the kid, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. 7Also the cow and the bear will graze; Their young will lie down together; And the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8And the nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den. 9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.”
This has not yet been fulfilled. The wolf is not dwelling with the lamb, the calf and the lion are not together, nor are the cow and bear grazing together. The lion is not eating straw like an ox. Nursing children are not playing in the dens of cobras.
Quotes from Joseph Smith
http://www.carm.org/joseph-smith-quotes
Interesting Quotes from Joseph Smith, the Founder of Mormonism
Joseph Smith boasted that he did more than Jesus to keep a church together.
“God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409). Click here to see this quote in context.
Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon was more correct than the Bible.
“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book,” (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461).
Joseph Smith made a false prophecy (one of several).
“. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394). Click here to see this quote in context.
Joseph Smith said mothers have babies in eternity and some are on thrones.
“A question may be asked, ‘Will mothers have their children in eternity?’ Yes! Yes! Mothers, you shall have your children,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 10). “Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory, with not one cubit added to their stature,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 10).
Joseph Smith said there are many gods.
“Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God–that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all,” (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 474). “In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5).
Joseph Smith said the Trinity is three gods.
“I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods,” (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).
Joseph Smith said God was once a man.
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens…I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form — like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man….it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see….and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).
Joseph Smith said our greatest responsibility is to seek after our dead.
“The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 7).
Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to Heaven? (The Young Woman’s Journal, vol. 3, p. 263-264. See reprint in Mormonism — Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, p. 4.)
] Quotes from Brigham Young
http://www.carm.org/brigham-young-quotes
Interesting Quotes from Brigham Young, the Second Prophet of the Mormon Church
Brigham Young said your own blood must atone for some sins.
“There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . ” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247; see also, vol. 4, p. 53-54, 219-220).
Brigham Young said you must confess Joseph Smith as a prophet of God in order to be saved.
“…and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is Antichrist,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 312).
Brigham Young said his discourses are as good as Scripture.
“I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . ” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 264; see also p. 95).
Brigham Young said he had never given any counsel that was wrong.
“I am here to answer. I shall be on hand to answer when I am called upon, for all the counsel and for all the instruction that I have given to this people. If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 161).
Brigham Young compared his sermons with scripture.
“I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom…I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95).
Brigham Young said you are damned if you deny polygamy.
“Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).
Brigham Young said you can’t get to the highest heaven without Joseph Smith’s consent.
“…no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).
Brigham Young said God was progressing in knowledge.
“God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 120).
Brigham Young boasted.
“What man or woman on earth, what spirit in the spirit-world can say truthfully that I ever gave a wrong word of counsel, or a word of advice that could not be sanctioned by the heavens? The success which has attended me in my presidency is owing to the blessings and mercy of the Almighty . . . ” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p. 127).
Brigham Young said that we are obligated to keep all the laws and ordinances of God.
“Some of you may ask, ‘Is there a single ordinance to be dispensed with? Is there one of the commandments that God has enjoined upon the people, that he will excuse them from obeying?’ Not one, no matter how trifling or small in our own estimation. No matter if we esteem them non-essential, or least or last of all the commandments of the house of God, we are under obligation to observe them.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 339).
Brigham Young said Jesus’ birth was as natural as ours.
“The birth of the Savior was as natural as the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood–was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).
Brigham Young said that God the Father and Mary ‘do it.’
“When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 218). “The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood — was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115). Note: the late Bruce McConkie who was a member of the First Council of the Seventy stated “There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events…” (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 742).
Brigham Young said that Jesus was not begotten by the Holy Spirit.
“I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51).
Brigham Young taught that Adam was God.
“Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken — He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50).
Brigham Young made a false prophecy?
“In the days of Joseph [Smith] it was considered a great privilege to be permitted to speak to a member of Congress, but twenty-six years will not pass away before the Elders of this Church will be as much thought of as the kings on their thrones,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 40).
Brigham Young comments about blacks
“You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind….Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290).
“In our first settlement in Missouri, it was said by our enemies that we intended to tamper with the slaves, not that we had any idea of the kind, for such a thing never entered our minds. We knew that the children of Ham were to be the “servant of servants,” and no power under heaven could hinder it, so long as the Lord would permit them to welter under the curse and those were known to be our religious views concerning them.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 172).
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).
7] Mormon rhetorical tactics
http://www.carm.org/does-mormonism-attack-other-religions
Does Mormonism Attack Other Religions?
Mormons do not like it when their Church is labeled a cult by Christians. This bothers them and they want desperately to be accepted as Christian by the Christian community. The Mormon church spends a great deal of time and money on public relations with the aim of portraying a loving, family-oriented, non-condemning Christian denomination. But Christians react to this and cite the great differences in doctrine between Mormons and Christians and continue to pronounce the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a non-Christian cult.
The battle continues and Mormons try to claim that they do not go around condemning other religions like “anti-Mormons” do. They say they are forgiving, tolerant, good Christian people who don’t have anything against anyone. They claim they are being more Christ-like.
Their desire for a good image is understandable. But the question remains. Does the Mormon church condemn other religious systems? The answer is definitely, “Yes.” Let’s look at Mormon writers and see what they have said.
Joseph Smith said . . .
(Regarding Joseph Smith’s alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him.) . . .) “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).
“What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270.)
(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. . .)
First — “Do you believe the Bible?”
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that do, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do.”
Third — “Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?”
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness.” (Teachings, page 119.)
Brigham Young said. . .
“But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong,” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, 1855, p. 171).
John Taylor said . . .
“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…. Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, 1858, p. 167).
“Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, 1863, p. 127).
James Talmage said . . .
“A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ,” (The Articles of Faith, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, p. 182).
Bruce McConkie said . . .
“With the loss of the gospel, the nations of the earth went into a moral eclipse called the Dark Ages,” (Mormon Doctrine, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah, p. 44).
Joseph Fielding Smith said . . .
“Again, following the death of his apostles, apostasy once more set in, and again the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel were changed to suit the conveniences and notions of the people. Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness,” (Doctrines of Salvation, page 266).
The Book of Mormon says. . .
“And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth” (1 Nephi 14:10).
“And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose foundation is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence. . .” (1 Nephi. 14:17).
The Doctrine and Covenants says . . .
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face” (Doctrine and Covenants, 112:23).
When the Mormon missionaries come to the door and do their “gospel” presentation, they mention an apostasy and the need for a prophet, their prophet, to restore the true Teachings of Jesus. Of course, these ‘restored’ teachings are completely false.
Nevertheless, the Mormon church clearly condemns other religious systems. Those Mormons who complain about poor treatment should familiarize themselves with their teachers’ words.
END of EXCERPTS
Hood
A dear brother sent me this information that he got from another brother.
Can you get Rok to help you refute any of this and teach us here on BU the TRUTH about the TRUTH man?
Onlookers:
All too much of the above on at best tangential matters is all too predictable; but sadly revealing onthe state of he mind and heart and soul of all too many of our educated classes in our region.
Now, there is a series of quesitons from OTH above, which in effect asks to whom have I circulated the ideas being mentioned here.
The first and foremost answer to that is on a point of free advice.
For, this is a public forum, and the best way to destroy the prospects of proposals to senior decision makers in our region or elsewhere is to yap about proposals under discussion and who they are submitted to too specifically in public.
However, I can put hearts at ease by noting that the ideas and issues are in fact, step by step being communicated to relevant potential partners in the rebuilding of Haiti. And if some serious people take up the brainstorming offer made yesterday evening, those ideas that come up trumps will also be added, with due credit being given. if you have Haitian friends out there, why not invite them to make suggestions too?
One preliminary result from my own efforts, is that the great powers are making it crystal clear that they are not taking the lead — as in “shoot/slander me” — role in the long-term rebuilding of Haiti.
That is not news, as the ongoing stabilisation and nation building efforts triggered by Haiti’s latest coup are being led by an international team under UN auspices. (The same effort that saw Caricom sitting by on the sidelines and shooting dependency theory rhetorical barbs . . . [Free advice: even if one has to make a protest, one should actively help when one’s neighbour is in trouble. this quake, horrible as it is, is an opportunity to help make a positive difference.])
But it is also important for us to discuss what can be done in the public eye.
And of course given the status of this particular blog, there are doubtless some significant onlookers.
G’day
Dictionary
PS: On a point of spiritual help to those who acknowledge they need it: Scoffers against the Nicene creed should note how closely it is based, step by step, on the teachings in the indisputably C1, AD 55 summary of the “official” testimony of the NT church about the gospel, in 1 Cor 15:1 – 11, augmented by the equally C1 creedal statements and hymns in Heb 1:1 – 14, Col 1:15 – 20, Phil 2:5 – 11, Jn 1:1 – 14 etc etc etc. In short, the assertions of the Dan Brown-ist mythology (presented in a novel!) — never mind assertions about “fact” — are utterly without merits.
PPS: I have updated my notes on typical errors of skeptics overnight, especially the section that deals with the historicity of the NT and the associated credibility of the gospel message and the historic Christian teachings associated with that gospel. Skeptics are challenged to step up to the plate of serious comparative difficulties analysis, or stand exposed as making ill-founded assertions in the teeth of accessible, reasonably warranted, credible truth.
PPPS: Re Wikipedia: The Council was historically significant as the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom.[2] This was copied from Wikipedia.
–> While Wiki is often a lot better than its ill-informed critics dismissively suggest, it is notoriously unreliable on topics where its secularist, evolutionary materialist, modernist liberalist slant will affect results.
–> here, the anonymous authors ignore or are ignorant of he very first major church council, of AD 48/9, in Jerusalem, which is reported in Acts 15 and alluded to in Gal 1 – 2.
–> the issues in that council were clustered on the status of gentiles in the church [i.e. the sort of things in the creedal texts I have listed already were a CONSENSUS], whether they needed to become Jews to be saved.
–> Observe, too, the characteristically hebraic nature of the issues, as posed by Pharisees turned Christians [NB: Jesus; views were closest to certain wings of he Pharisee movement in the context of C1 theological issues]:
–> Observe, we find nowhere the faintest trace of Tammuz, Adonis, Mithra, Osiris or Horus!
–> In putting in the decisive point, Peter noted, and James concurred as follows, demonstrating the Judaeo-Christian monotheistic view in action in a text that credibly dates to AD 62 or so [cf my already linked discussion on NT historicity]:
–> And to this let us add from the creedal declaration in Heb 1:
–> that should make the actual, historic, authentic C1 NT faith once for all delivered unto the saints crystal clear to all who will but heed the world of God confirmed by resurrection from the dead with 500 witnesses and an outpouring of the Spirit in life transforming resurrection power for 20 centuries.
–> For those needing help with the superficially difficult but utterly profound and coherent triune understanding of God, I suggest here as a start.
++++++++++++
Now, can we get back to the focal issues for his thread?
There is a hurting nation to help out there . . .
D
@Anon // February 15, 2010 at 11:54 PM
Very, very, good “Mr” Anon, well done.
I must say though that for someone who did not even know about the Council of Nicaea, who was not even familiar with Bible scripture and the workings of the early saints, you have suddenly become very “knowledgable” about tha LDS Church! My, my what a little copying & posting from the internet can do to improve someone’s intellect almost instantaneously as in your case!
Oh,btw, don’t we all know that whatever is found on the internet is gospel truth! Sure it is, just as sure that my name is Methusela!
Let me assure you that, if I wanted to, I could find even more on the internet about any other denomination/religious persuasion that could be presented as being just as condemning to them as what you have presented here.
Doesn’t it seem strange that with all my comments I don’t recall trying to condemn or run down anyone’s religion as some folk do with the LDS church. I wonder why they think that they should all have a shot at doing this? Could it be that Satan already knows those who are on his side so he has to stir up those who are not? Carry on my brother, just be careful you do not succumb to heart failure in your extreme haste to accomplish what you are doing.
I can think of no discussion more idle, pointless, empty and useless than one on religion. Thankfully in Barbados such discussions/arguments are of no consequence other than the raised heart rates of the discussants. In other more backward societies such discussions can result in physical harm. Thankfully our constitution not only allows freedom of religion but implicitly freedom from religion.
I can think of no discussion more idle, pointless, empty and useless than one on POLITICS, cause after the noise you cant change nothing. LOL
Hood
Is that the best you can offer as an “apologetic”?
See how fast I learn.?
Of course the info I put up is well done. It came from Mormon sources. ha ha
Because you say that I didnt know of the Council of Nicaea, and the workings of the early saints it is so?
Casting lots is another form of voting, my dear friend.
Oh yes a little copying & posting from the internet can do to improve someone’s intellect almost instantaneously.
What we find on the internet is gospel truth only when YOU & ROK find it. We all know that. So get him top help you to find a more suitable rebuttal.
Were you not scoffing at the Nicene Creed last evening?
And no it did not even raise my heart rate one beat to post the information on the mormons.
Folk need to be educated about what you guys teach. ha ha
@the hood, Anon, simply posted what he was given access to, quoting directly FROM the horses ‘mouth’ so to speak, that IS, from, duly authorized MORMON, LDS, literature, writings of their so-called Prophet, Joseph Smith, Jr, Brigham Young, et al.
Question: Are these quotations from Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, et al, factual? Are they not what the LDS, Mormons teach and believe, YES or NO?
Did the (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, 1856, p. 247) authorized LDS writings, on Mormon theology, not state:
“Jesus’ sacrifice WAS NOT able to cleanse us from ALL our sins (murder, and repeated adultry are excepted).”
Is this a correct quotation from (Journal and Discourses, Vol. 3, 1856, p.247)? Or, is it a lie?
The above quotation, IS in direct CONTRADICTION to the Word of God, the Bible.
Hear God’s Word, NOT the FALSE doctrine of the LDS, Mormon Cult.
“God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the (OT) prophets. Hath in THESE LAST DAYS spoken unto us by (Joseph Smith, NO! NO! NO! BY) His Son whom, He hath appointed heir of ALL things by WHOM also He made the worlds; Who being the BRIGHTNESS of His glory, and the EXPRESS image of His person, and upholding ALL THINGS by the *word* of His power, *when* He had by HIMSELf, PURGED our *SINS* sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” (Hebrews. 1: 1-3) emphasis added.
HOOD, do you hear what Almighty God’s Word, says? The Lord Jesus Christ, “…had by HIMSELF *PURGED* (cleansed) OUR SINS…”
Who is right, Jesus Christ and His Word, OR, the LDS, Mormons in (Journal and Discourses, Vol. 3, 1856, p.247)? Answer Hood?
Again, from the LDS, Mormons:
“There is NO salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God” (Doctrine of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188).
Hear the Word of God, again, Hood!
“Father, the hour has come, Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over ALL FLESH, that He should GIVE ETERNAL LIFE to as many as You have given Him.”
“And THIS is ETERNAL LIFE (Salvation) that they may KNOW (Who?) You, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and (Who?) JESUS CHRIST ( Not a mention of Joseph Smith et al) whom YOU have sent…” (John 17:1b-5) emphasis added.
“But He (Jesus) because He continues FOREVER, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore, He is also able to (Do what?) SAVE (to what extent?) TO THE UTTERMOST those who (first accept Joseph Smith, NO!) Who come to God (directly) THROUGH HIM, (Why?) since He (Jesus Christ) always lives, (to do what?) To make intercession for them” ( Heb. 7:24) emphasis added.
Hood, who are we to believe? The Word of God, or the utter falsehood, of the LDS and Mormonism?
Brigham Young said you can’t get to heaven without Joseph Smith’s consent!
“…no man or woman in this dispensation will EVER enter into the celestial kingdom of God WITHOUT the consent of Joseph Smith” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289).
Hear God’s Word Hood.
‘Jesus saith unto him, ‘I AM the WAY, the TRUTH, and THE LIFE, NO man cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME” (John 14:6) emphasis added.
How do we know this means that JESUS is the ONLY Mediator between the Father in the spirit realm and mankind on earth?
Hear God’s Word again:
“For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR between (Who and where?) God (In heaven) and men (on earth) the man Christ Jesus” ( 1 Tim. 2:5) emphasis added.
Now, the next text is absolutely potent with conformation that ONLY the Eternal Godhead, Father, Son and Holy spirit, are able, capable, and ABSOLUTELY sufficient to hear and receive ANYONE, who come to them, NOT Joseph Smith, or anyone else:
“For through HIM (The Lord Jesus Christ) we both HAVE ACCESS ( by Joseph Smith, NO! NO!NO! by) ONE SPIRIT (The Holy Spirit) unto the FATHER” ( Eph. 2:18) emphasis added.
Hood, stop twisting the truth, as IT IS revealed concerning the terrible, blatant, dowright FALSE DOCTRINE of the LDS and Mormonism, ALL there for any one who can read, carefully documented in authorized literature from within the LDS organization.
Be intellectually honest man, and come clean, and admit, the CONTRADICTORY, false doctrine, and blasphemy committed by Joseph Smith, Brighan Yound et al.
This IS SO shameful, what Joseph Smith, Brigham Young et al have done, terribly DECEIVED false prophets, resolutely CONFIRMED by God’s Word, the Bible.
Propaganda ministers
Propaganda ministers
I’ve got a heavy due
I’m gonna walk all over you
‘Cause
Madness, madness
I call it gladness
Well if this is madness
Man I know I’m filled with gladness
It’s gonna be rougher
It’s gonna be tougher
And I won’t be the one who’s gonna suffer
Madness
“Mr” Zoe,
Really!! Sometimes you leave me no alternative but to question your motives and/or your sanity.
Now, do you really think that with the level of intelligence that most folk have been exposed to these days that they would even think of abiding by such obvious devious slander as put forward by you and all those associated with you?
One of the “BU triune”, maybe you, suggested that one could take scripture from the Bible out of context and get it to mean whatever one desired. Well! What are you doing here but the SAME VERY THING! All you or others have done is pluck a statement here and a statement there and come up with something completely different to what was actually intended. Have you no shame or conscience, Sir? Or is it that the end justifies the means!!
@ the hood
“One of the “BU triune”, maybe you, suggested that one could take scripture from the Bible out of context and get it to mean whatever one desired.”
That is what Arius did.
“Well! What are you doing here but the SAME VERY THING! All you or others have done is pluck a statement here and a statement there and come up with something completely different to what was actually intended.”
That is the danger with their brand. They have taken the whole bible out of context to try to prove that they have the truth.
@ the hood
“Or is it that the end justifies the means!”
Here is where the wickedness begins. Deceit, lies, untruths, fear-mongering.
@ ROK
My thoughts run along the same line as yours, ROKie. :>)
INTERESTING CONVERSTATION
An Atheist Professor of Philosophy was speaking to his Class on the Problem Science has with GOD, the ALMIGHTY.
He asked one of his New Christian Students to stand and . . .. …
Professor : You are a Christian, aren’t you, son ?
Student : Yes, sir.
Professor : So, you Believe in GOD ?
Student : Absolutely, sir.
Professor : Is GOD Good ?
Student : Sure.
Professor : Is GOD ALL – POWERFUL ?
Student : Yes.
Professor : My Brother died of Cancer even though he Prayed to GOD to Heal him.
Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill.
But GOD didn’t. How is this GOD good then? Hmm?
(Student was silent )
Professor : You can’t answer, can you ? Let’s start again, Young Fella.
Is GOD Good?
Student : Yes.
Professor : Is Satan good ?
Student : No.
Professor : Where does Satan come from ?
Student : From . . . GOD . . .
Professor : That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this World?
Student : Yes.
Professor : Evil is everywhere, isn’t it ? And GOD did make everything. Correct?
Student : Yes.
Professor : So who created evil ?
(Student did not answer)
Professor : Is there Sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness?
All these terrible things exist in the World, don’t they?
Student : Yes, sir.
Professor : So, who Created them ?
(Student had no answer)
Professor : Science says you have 5 Senses you use to Identify and Observe the World around you.
Tell me, son . . . Have you ever Seen GOD?
Student : No, sir.
Professor : Tell us if you have ever Heard your GOD?
Student : No , sir.
Professor : Have you ever Felt your GOD, Tasted your GOD, Smelt your GOD?
Have you ever had any Sensory Perception of GOD for that matter?
Student : No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.
Professor : Yet you still Believe in HIM?
Student : Yes.
Professor : According to Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol,
Science says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student : Nothing. I only have my Faith.
Professor : Yes,Faith. And that is the Problem Science has.
Student : Professor, is there such a thing as Heat?
Professor : Yes.
Student : And is there such a thing as Cold?
Professor : Yes.
Student : No, sir. There isn’t.
(The Lecture Theatre became very quiet with this turn of events )
Student : Sir, you can have Lots of Heat, even More Heat, Superheat, Mega Heat, White Heat,
a Little Heat or No Heat.
But we don’t have anything called Cold.
We can hit 458 Degrees below Zero which is No Heat, but we can’t go any further after that.
There is no such thing as Cold.
Cold is only a Word we use to describe the Absence of Heat.
We cannot Measure Cold.
Heat is Energy.
Cold is Not the Opposite of Heat, sir, just the Absence of it.
(There was Pin-Drop Silence in the Lecture Theatre )
Student : What about Darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as Darkness?
Professor : Yes. What is Night if there isn’t Darkness?
Student : You’re wrong again, sir.
Darkness is the Absence of Something
You can have Low Light, Normal Light, Bright Light, Flashing Light . . .
But if you have No Light constantly, you have nothing and its called Darkness, isn’t it?
In reality, Darkness isn’t.
If it is, were you would be able to make Darkness Darker, wouldn’t you?
Professor : So what is the point you are making, Young Man ?
Student : Sir, my point is your Philosophical Premise is flawed.
Professor : Flawed ? Can you explain how?
Student : Sir, you are working on the Premise of Duality.
You argue there is Life and then there is Death, a Good GOD and a Bad GOD.
You are viewing the Concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure.
Sir, Science can’t even explain a Thought.
It uses Electricity and Magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.
To view Death as the Opposite of Life is to be ignorant of the fact that
Death cannot exist as a Substantive Thing.
Death is Not the Opposite of Life: just the Absence of it
Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your Students that they evolved from a Monkey?
Professor : If you are referring to the Natural Evolutionary Process, yes, of course, I do.
Student : Have you ever observed Evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shook his head with a Smile, beginning to realize where the Argument was going )
Student : Since no one has ever observed the Process of Evolution at work and
Cannot even prove that this Process is an On-Going Endeavor,
Are you not teaching your Opinion, sir?
Are you not a Scientist but a Preacher?
(The Class was in Uproar )
Student : Is there anyone in the Class who has ever seen the Professor’s Brain?
(The Class broke out into Laughter )
Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s Brain, Felt it, touched or Smelt it? . . ..
No one appears to have done so.
So, according to the Established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol,
Science says that You have No Brain, sir.
With all due respect, sir, how do we then Trust your Lectures, sir?
(The Room was Silent. The Professor stared at the Student, his face unfathomable)
Professor : I guess you’ll have to take them on Faith, son.
Student : That is it sir . . . Exactly !
The Link between Man & GOD is FAITH.
That is all that Keeps Things Alive and Moving.
NB:
I believe you have enjoyed the Conversation . . . and if so .. .
You’ll probably want your Friends / Colleagues to enjoy the same . . . won’t you?
Forward them to Increase their Knowledge . . . or FAITH.
That student was Albert Einstein.
@ Anon,
Am I supposed to understand,Sir, that you were definitely present when this conversation took place between Mr. Einstein and his professor?
Why would anyone who actually KNOWS the truth not be open and welcoming to differing views? – Surely such could only reinforce and enhance what they know to be correct.
Why the aggressive insulting response to ‘scoffers’? Is it that the ‘truth’ cannot stand up to strong scrutiny? Is it that the beliefs held are so tenuous that only by insulting and brow beating opponents that their integrity can be protected?
No wonder ‘Christians’ start so many wars..
Bush tea for one would like to see ROK, The Hood and others allowed to develop their own perspectives in a decent, respectful environment…. without the BU trinity rushing into name calling and then posting ridiculously long bits of cut and paste nonsense designed to deflect the discussion.
Bush Tea have some challenging questions for both ROK and Hood, (and still waiting on MME for my chicken /egg story LOL), however I suspect that unlike the case with the trinity, we may actually get a respectful, beneficial intercourse that will be entertaining, educational and enlightening.
….@ David, how about we ban the trinity….?!!
…just kidding…
Such fallacious arguments. If there is no heat then there is nothing cold either, just a temperature measurement. Certainly the absence of coldness is heat and the absence of heat is cold. Also, just as you can generate heat you can generate cold.
Now, the absence of light is darkness. It means that darkness prevails and in order to overcome darkness you must generate light.
The student is who? A dunce? Certainly not Albert Einstein… and the professor? Dunce-ier.
I must admit that after reading as far as those two, it did not make sense to continue reading. You got the pass mark for Dunce = 0%.