Submitted by Crusoe (as a comment on the Haiti We Are Sorry blog
You list some good ideas for the structural retransformation of Haiti [Responding to Commenter Dictionary on the Haiti We Are Sorry blog]. Each in of themselves they do not depend on improved education but do depend on improved technical training (farming etc). However, for all, the long-term success of those initiatives individually and collectively leading to a successful Haiti will certainly also depend on improved education, if as we have been informed, the literacy level is so low.
This has two implications.
Firstly, immediately after initial search, rescue, medical, temporary (short and medium term) and security issues have been addressed as priority, the early reformation must include an immediate education programme, for adult and youth, such that the transformation of Haiti can begin with the active participation of her people, not as ‘serfs’ but as active individuals and communities with an understanding of the reasoning behind the methods and the aim of the methods.
I must add, that ‘transformation’ in this context is not meant to refer to bringing Haiti to the same philosophical outlook as anyone other specific group. In this context it is meant to refer to bringing Haiti to a level of self-capability and self-determination. Now, to expect say a three or four year ‘crash course’ in education and technical skills may seem either impossible or unrealistic, but unfortunately, if this is not done as one of the foundations of the rebuilding (in the context of not only structural, but as a nation of people), than all else may eventually prove futile.
This is obviously along the lines of the old phrase of teaching a man to fish instead of giving him the fish. Merely putting up structures, farms etc may certainly alleviate some misery, but while in the short term foreign contractors etc may gain much from the aid given for this purpose, the long-term goal should be to have Haitians and not only elite, but the everyday Haitian, benefit from money flows and thus create an independent people and a vibrant economy.
It is my view therefore Caricom leaders, should address the education of Haiti, as a priority, as much a priority as any other redevelopment effort.
To reinforce a point, the initial effort must not only be to set up an improved schooling system, but implement as an interim measure, an ’emergency education programme’, with the help of international authorities and the Haitian authorities. If one wants a long-term Haiti, this is essential.
We must give thanks yet again, that Errol Barrow saw the necessity of education as a developmental tool. And, we must forever resist ANY attempts to take free education from Barbadians. Indeed, those of us who wish for an improved world, must seek the furtherance of a sound even if basic education, for all peoples, as a necessity for development.
1,421 responses to “The Reconstruction And Transformation Of Haiti: A Global-Moral Imperative”
“He misspelt the man’s name dont you think?”
He definitely does; at all times. Is he dyslexic too? In true form you jump to the defense of your colleague. He must never be wrong, no matter what he says or does? Is this PR support or is he non-human? A robot?
The point I am making is that here is a man doing to others what he doesn’t want done to him. It is one thing to come here and spout all his learning of the bible but quite another to live by the tenets of the same book, because the measure of christianity is not what you know but what you practice.
Furthermore, when you know and do not practice, you are more of a sinner than those who know no better and do the same thing.
These men started out condemning Haiti for devil worship and now this is the same man that want to discuss the reconstruction of Haiti; and vexed too that much people ain’t taking him on. Talk about hypocrisy?
They have taken the word Voodoo and demonised it, yet the Voodoo practitioners walk with a bible…. but I want to ask a question, when the demons were driven out of the swine, was that Voodoo? The reference to good fruit from good trees and evil fruit from evil trees, is that a mad statement?
How do you deal with evil spirits today? What is the practice of the church? Is it that demons and evil spirits no longer exist? As a believer should you not confront evil spirits and should you not be on the front line? Can you recognise evil spirits?
It would seem to me that Voodoo has in what you left out and remain ignorant to.
Hopi, quoting the Senator:
“We all know the situation with beds and whether it’s in general wards or the Surgical & Intensive Care (Unit) and therefore the truth is, we simply are not in a position to provide that support at this time because we are not talking about a short-term minor situation.
“We are talking about serious care, which we are probably not able to deliver in Barbados.”>>
Hey Hopes,
Read it again. Digest. Sorry to break this to you, but Senator McClean is sadly correct.
Even an ignorant and humble layman like myself, can see that our healthcare has suffered severe lack of attention, during the past number of years.
Now, is the result. Truly, do you live here or you must be truly blessed not to have anyone near the facility.
Commonly, bajans are NOT comfortable going near the QEH, so surely the Senator speaks right??
ROK,
What are our leaders thinking?
From an emotional and humanitarian viewpoint, you are right. Sadly, from a practical viewpoint, this reflects how serious a state our healthcare has reached.
Reality bites!
@Crusoe
I cannot accept your explanation. It is a downright scandal that we are telling one of our neighbours that we can’t accommodate a single one of them. This is not the normal run of things, this is a disaster that could have hit us. Where would our hospital be?
That decision was based on selfish, individualistic considerations, set in economic theory. That is how we were taught to think. As a Caribbean man, I am disappointed that we could make a statement like that; or at all.
They could have set up tents on the outside of the QEH. The army has barracks and if I remember correctly, there was no emergency in India when those Indians were packed like sardines working on Kensington. Accommodation cannot be a good enough excuse. We made a decision to take NONE.
We have a saying, however bad it is with you, you can find somebody worse off. Haiti sure is.
When barbados could find a way to bail out the FourSeason projects .They could of a least help 1 haitian injured .Here is a country who relies on tourisim and they are sending a message to the world that is not positive. “A friend in need is a friend in deed”
ROK,
Fair points and taken. Looking at it holistically you are correct.
Onlookers:
I am an openly confessed dyslexic — including here at BU.
Apologies to Mr Halsall. (I am too used to an “h” there . . . [And BTW, ROK, there is no comparison between willful vulgarisation of a name leading on to gross incivlity, violation of privacy and an honest error of spelling or typing. And if you think they are the same, you need to look very seriously at your personal table of moral values.])
Going beyond that, again, onlookers: let us note the consistent pattern: grabbing at one another with none too gentle claws, and pulling back into the barrel headed for the hot water.
Why not form a living rope of cooperation instead, and then let us all climb out of the barrel?
The videos above would be an excellent base for us to look at some possibilities for education transformation and sustainable building systems for Haiti and the wider Caribbean.
Along that theme, let us learn from the women of China on the power of business incubation:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFgerkhe4Bw&hl=en_US&fs=1&]
So, now will we move to helping one another, or will we play at the crabs in the barrel game?
G’day
Dictionary
Crusoe while you usually make thoughtful posts, I must ask you to stop repeating this nonsense about the state of the QEH. At least three members of my family have had to be hospitalised within the last three years, the last one as recently as January 2010. All were bedded on the public wards. Our family can only praise the successful and good care that was given there. There was no discomfort in going to the QEH other than sympathy for the sick because they were sick. This discomfort was alleviated by the knowledge that good care (at very low direct cost to their families) would be dispensed at the QEH. Furthermore if there are any areas that Barbados has spent much money and time on improving over the last 40 years and particularly the last 16 years these have been education and health care. To say otherwise is to be dishonest to score partisan political points.
More:
Ideas on business development, sustainability and breaking the grip of poverty.
Plainly relevant to Haiti — how can Caribbean businesses and business organisations contribute to the sustainable and desirable transformation of Haiti?
Here is a Dutch-originated pilot in Ecuador:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Cnls9KhQ_4&hl=en_US&fs=1&]
(And, beyond, in the wider reagion?)
D
Onlookers:
Then there is the Philippines’ OTOP: One Town, One Product programme — maybe we can expand this into clusters of products in Haiti, and across our region. And of course this is networked, decentralised economic development.
(Haitians have enormous potential in artistic handicrafts.)
The focus on marketing up to global level as well as organisation and development of enterprises, is suggestive of opportunities for our Haitian brothers and sisters, and for us too:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_P18tLHuAs&hl=en_US&fs=1&]
Y’know, no-one talks about “ants in a barrel” as being in trouble — if we don’t want them there, we might talk about ants in a barrel as being/causing the trouble!
(Ants know how to work together, as Proverbs noted for us 3,000 years ago, reflecting the ANE’s consensus on wisdom. Lessons for us?)
D
PS: I hear you all over in Bim had a dusting from the 50 mn cu m collapse Thursday afternoon — Guadeloupe had the worst of it [sorry for them], but Antigua to St Vincent seem to have been dusted. That 40 – 50 k ft cloud looked scary for Salem and environs — pyroclastic flows reached Cork Hill, and it looked like another ash blanketing. This is one time the odd winds spared us more mess.
Dictionary press on with your submissions and contributions.
Your posts are indeed informative and suggest that you think!
Clearly you are on a much higher plain than the rabble that rant and rave on BU regularly?
What ideas do Rok have?
Except bashing Christians and Christianity.
If ANYONE, had posted a fraction of the info and constructive IDEAS that Dictionary HAS posted, re the Reconstruction of Haiti, they would have been highly commended, by the rant and rave *diehards* on BU, but, because Dictionary IS a Christian, ALL of this diatribe, DISTRACTION, DISTORTION, demonization of his character, is pursued with vehement hatred, scorn and ignorance, for anyone adhering to the Christian Worldview!
This disguisting, irrational, attitude from those well-known on BU, whose names are not worthy to be mentioned, have AN agenda of malicious, slander-mongering, animosity, that does nothing but breed contempt among the uninformed!
“This disguisting, irrational, attitude from those well-known on BU, whose names are not worthy to be mentioned, have AN agenda of malicious, slander-mongering, animosity, that does nothing but breed contempt among the uninformed!”
Some people just enjoy talking about themselves.
“What ideas do Rok have? Except bashing Christians and Christianity.”
Those that come here trying to profess how much they are christians are those of little faith. They seeking proof, therefore I am not bashing christians, but those evil forces at work under the guise of christianity need to pull up their socks.
You are just a lakey, singing the cvhorus about which you know nothing. Not every one that cries Lord, Lord, is a christian. You should be careful about the company you keep.
@ ROK
Sir, I am very much inclined to agree with you re “Mr.” Zoe, GP etc. You see I realised that as I continued to read their supposed Christian input what I found was that something seemed not quite right. I found that every time I read a comment by the “BU trinity” a heavy, desolate atmosphere would overcome me. I reasoned to myself that if what they were trying to teach was by the Holy Spirit then why was I getting these discomfitting feelings. After all, I have learnt from scripture that the Holy Spirit is really supposed to be the COMFORTER and the CONFIRMER of TRUTH but there was no comforting feeling or confimation that I was witnessing truth.
So obviouly, if what they were posting was not of the Holy Spirit then it must be of some other spirit. I also discerned a lack of humility in their discourses by the way certain words and/or phrases were used.
I have since been made to understand that they adhere to this Christian Worldview belief as I suppose all these evangelical sects do. Bear in mind that these evangelical sects have men like one Ted Haggard as one of their leaders in the umbrella organisation. Haggard of course was recently exposed as a “closet” homosexual with a wife & family stashed quietly at home! It gets a lot worse with some of these evangelists getting arrested for sexual abuse of minors and transporting minors across state lines for immoral purposes. If you think I am making all this up just google “Ted Haggard Arrested” and check for yourself. So when these “very learned” men think they can “hoodwink” the hood, they got another think coming. So much for their “learned” expounding, their “hermeneutics” & “exegeses” . I would prefer to stay with unlearned men like, Peter, the FISHERMAN, but yet a valiant Apostle of the Lord.
@the hood
You see, one of the things the men of cloth understand is that their religion is a matter of faith. As a “theolog” student, they ring it in your head. There is no mistake; there is no argument. It is about faith in the amount of a grain of a mustard seed.
Why is that? There is no proof; as with all religions. All of them are faiths/beliefs. The trilogue here have not the first clue. It has long been settled that men have tried to manufacture proof by falsifying evidence; insertions into historic text; trying to turn the bible into history.
All these are long known and have been expunged from the teachings which focus on the faith, rather than history. You simply have to believe that Christ existed. The interpretation of the bible texts is about finding spiritual satisfaction. It matters not whether the stories are true or false; as you say, it is to find comfort and wisdom in the text.
These are stories that were handed down from generation to generation over thousands of years as oral tradition before they were texts . Of course, there must be some wisdom in them, but the original meanings have long been forgotten.
Anglicans have long resorted to the comfort and spiritual guidance of the text as do most other religions with theirs. It is a culture; a way of life; not just something for Sundays. Even in terms of discussion, it is about deeds and not about whether or not Christ existed.
These men are the pits and can only be deemed the laughing stock when it comes to christianity. Somebody is feeding off the secular nature of men in the name of religion. Somebody saw a need to shape religion into modern day living; to make it more meaningful; like a personal relationship with Christ. Nonsense!
Then there is this rise in self importance. You pass one of them and you greet them with, “How are you?” You hear, “I am blessed”, as if everybody is not blessed. Like the men who prayed in public. I swear some of them will end up in the mental because what they have done is set themselves up for the fall. Just another Jim Jones.
Dic………What would you recommend ‘trickle down economics’ or ‘redistribution of wealth’ where the producers of this wealth get a bigger piece of the pie. All these recommendation you come here with have already been employed by the Haitians. Did you forget that the Haitians produced their own food and exports before the IMF, World Bank & USA stepped in and demanded that they restructure their economy?
Nestle with its GMO food has nothing good to offer Haiti, so I’m beginning to think that you are truly working for the opposing team!
Onlookers:
Predictable.
Sadly predictable.
I will not bother to rebut the tedious and distractive anti-christian rhetoric above [nor do I need to add to the recommendation that anyone considering the claims of the LDS of Utah should first read Walter Martin’s classic expose, including the devastating parallel columns on the sources of Bk of Mor. in novelistic literature . . . ], as there were several threads already since Nov – Dec, where that has been done, step by step at up to 500+ pp when printed off. I simply refer you to this discussion on the key errors of antichristian skepticism, and this presentation by a man at the top of the game on the historicity of the Biblical teaching and faith.
What does need some correction is the — equally sadly predictable — sloganising dismissal of market-oriented/ respecting solutions for economic growth and development.
I will not provide a major detailed tome of a response [let’s just say on a basic point of credibility (I wish I did not need to say this, but the tone has been so hostile that I need to identify that I have some basis for what I am saying) I am entitled to also add the letters MBA after my name . . . ], but a few notes that will help those confused by such slogans as:
1 –> The past generation is by itself empirical proof enough that centrally planned economies hamper economic growth and development, with China the absolute demonstration if one was needed. (Communists turned capitalists . . . )
2 –> As to why, Von Mises had his finger on the point in the 1920s: markets are signalling mechanisms that give controlling feedback on balances of needs and resources, thus solving the allocation problem — a computer architecture problem in disguise — by implementing a vast network of small planning entities interacting through markets: households and firms. (They don’t need sophisticated planning, only ability to monitor performance: demand up/inv down (getting a tad short), or the reverse, and how to respond per product line they offer, and to be prudent in managing resources. In a QuickBooks world, that is easier to do than ever, and BTW QB has a much deeper mkt penetration than MS Windows, in its field.)
3 –> But whenever any one or a few nodes in the system becomes an excessively dominant controlling centre [esp in an era of rapid tech change thus Schumpeter’s gales of creative destruction . . . ], esp central planning by gov’ts, they begin to choke on the info processing overload [millions and millions of transactions across up to thousands of miles, per day . . . ] — and on the need to respond in real time. As a result, central planning will fail in the end; indeed, it has no adequate means of judging and balancing needs and resources. [Politicising econ decision making simply multiplies the problem. And note the possibility of contestable markets with ease of entry and exit means we are not simply talking on a question of a few big firms dominating, or a Govt backed monopoly.]
4 –> Worse, over-centralising and politicising [often joined to excessive taxes that make the expected net present value of risky enterprise negative] discourages entrepreneurial risk taking and creativity, which creates and spreads real wealth. (A generation ago, Bill Gates was a College dropout. He became fabulously wealthy because he could bridge IBM’s need for an OS to an on the shelf system in a tech co. In so doing he spread a transforming, wealth creating wave across the world, which benefits us all. Enterprise and economic exchange — as opposed to theft, cheating or coercion — create mutual benefits.)
4 –> So, the “trickle down” sneer is a name-calling dismissal, not a serious response to a key need. (And some measure of redistributon is needed, to get to a Pareto optimal solution on welfare, or as may be a reasonable real world approximation thereto. that is not a justification for confiscatory taxation or for over-regulation.)
5 –> As to pulling the poor up out of poverty, I suggest that onlookers read Hernando de Soto’s The Other Path, and consult his Institute for Liberty and Democracy on how cartels and over-reaching govt with entangling regulations choke off access to ownership, permission and capital for the small scale micro-entrepreneur. That is why I am suggesting a look at business incubation, at initiatives to develop networks of opportunity across rural regions and towns, etc. (Adam Smith’s analysis on the town and the Country is over 200 years old.)
6 –> Haiti in the past was agricultural, and it had to have fed its population, i.e if you fell below subsistence you died of starvation or disease. But, mere subsistence is not good enough. (Britain has not fed itself for centuries, but its food supply is secure, and its population is well off. The same holds for any number of prosperous nations, many of which do not have a colonialising history, in case that Leninite error is trotted out: autarky in agriculture is NOT the answer.)
7 –> Likewise, given the demonstrated problem of quake resistant housing, traditional methods are not going to be enough, not with 9 million people and with need for schools, colleges, hospitals govt offices, factories, commercial space, etc. So, we need to look to sustainable construction technologies, as mentioned and as some videos point to.
8 –> We need to create wealth — including human capital in the form of educated and skilled people [hence a look at digitalisation of education], and we need to leverage wealth to become a base for sustainable prosperity in a thriving modern economy, which will balance agriculture — e.g. note the sustainable forestry on 5 – 7 yr growth cycle Guadua bamboo I have proposed [timber is the single largest use construction material] — with industry, commercial services, education, health, charity, not for profits and civil society organisations etc.
9 –> And, that wealth needs to be widely based on an educated and motivated, skilled work force who have a sense of belonging to and having a stake in the progress of their community: the most important capital asset of a nation.
10 –> As to the sneer at Nestle on genetic engineering, I will say that we have been genetically modifying plants and animals for thousands of years through selective breeding, and that allergies etc have been with us for all that time. Just because there is a novel technology for doing that moeefficiently does not make that technology automatically suspect. So, I suggest that with reasonable — but not entangling — regfulations, genetech plants and animals and bacteria have a valid place in our C21 economy.
11 –> Instead, let us move to a truly sustainable basis, that respects liberty, understands markets and their limitations [Externalities, Coase theorem and all that . . . markets sometimes have limits, but hisshould not lead us to dismiss them; similarly any control system in the real world where growth is a factor will have oscillatory behaviour, i.e. business cycles . . . too often exploited by those with ideological axes to grind], understands that science and technology are vital strategic forces and that energy is a need, and also recognises that we must have a sound spiritual base for civilisation.
12 –> And if the above sounds like suggestions for the whole region, not just Haiti, that is precisely correct.
_____________
G’day
Dictionary
David a comment is in mod pile. G’day.
@Crusoe……..I cannot agree with you. Did she come to this conclusion based on advice from medical specialist at the hospital or was this a mere political decision? Do you think the response would have been the same had this catastrophe been visited upon british subjects? Had ‘Q Elizabeth’ put in the call do you think the Senator would have turned her/them away with such a feeble, pathetic, disgusting excuse?
@hey Dick……stop your nonsense. Does the ‘government’ of Haiti have any money to provide incubators for the Haitian business development?
When was Haiti merely subsistent? Today I see haitian rice on supermarket shelves in my neck of the woods. Every summer this market is flooded with her mangoes. Is that mere subsistent?
Are you insinuating that the descendents of a Great and Mighty People who chopped down to size the marauder that ran rough shod all over Europe aren’t capable of determining their own destiny?
@hopi,
Maybe they won the battle but lost the war??
@ ROK
I totally agree, ROK, in the final analysis it all boils down to a matter of FAITH!
Mobutu // January 24, 2010 at 9:48 PM
BAFBFP
The Chinese used low-technology manufacturing exports to the USA to accumulate trillions of dollars in export earnings in just two decades. They are now the second largest economy in the world–larger than Germany, larger than Japan, and larger than their old patron Russia.
What’s good for the Chinese is good for Haiti.
———————————–
Cant let this eminently sensible post go unremarked in the dross that has drowned out this subject.
@ru4real
It’s not that simple is it?
We also had US companies which has saturated the domestic market and to sustain growth had to pursue expansionist strategies. The lost cost Chinese market and large size was hog heaven. Are we seeing a reversal with the US looking to take those jobs back?
So when these “very learned” men think they can “hoodwink” the hood, they got another think coming. So much for their “learned” expounding, their “hermeneutics” & “exegeses” . I would prefer to stay with unlearned men like, Peter, the FISHERMAN, but yet a valiant Apostle of the Lord.
It is always amusing to listen to someone pontificate about something that he obviously knows nothing about.
Whereas I understand that there on BU a dislike and an aversion for “very learned” men, it is also true that often in the NT, Paul, a “very learned” man said “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren.”
It is indeed that many many “very learned” men are fishermen. A good reading of the NT will show that James & John and Zebeddee were fairly affluent folk despite being fishermen. It is known to many that fishing is a very lucrative vocation in many parts of the world.
It is also very clear that it was the “very learned” men Luke and Paul who wrote most of the NT, and NOT the FISHERMAN. So what is your point.
Despite that , when you read the sermons of Peter in Acts and his theses in 1 & 2 Peter it is clear that he EXEGETED several OT passages, indicating that HE WAS WELL LEARNED IN THE OT SCRIPTURES.
If you would read Nehemiah 8:8 you will find hoe exegesis (or a drawing out) is done. We read in Nehemiah 8:8 “So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.”
THEY READ THE TEXT
THEY DETERMINED WHAT THE TEXT SAID
THEY DETERMINED WHAT THE TEXT MEANT
THEN THEY APPLIED THE TEXT
Hermeneutics or methods of Bible Study is a system of studying the Bible.
Martin Luther said that he studied the Bible like hoe he picked apples. (That was his system of Bible Study – his hermeneutics). He said when he picked apples, he shook the whole tree, then he shook the limbs, then the individual branches, then he looked under every leaf. In other words, he has a SURVEY METHOD or system by which he read the Bible. Many believers read it through one yearly so they are fairly familiar with the text.
Then there is BOOK STUDIES- book by book. How does the content of a book fit in to the whole. E.g what is the contribution of the four chapter book of Ruth?
Then there is CHAPTER STUDIES. How does the contents of a chapter advance the teaching of the book.
VERSE BY VERSE STUDIES OR EXEGESIS
Word studies.
There is TOPICAL BIBLE STUDY where topics are studied e.g marriage, faith, etc
BIOGRAPHICAL BIBLE STUDY where the lives of Bible characters are studied ( what can we learn from the life of Demas, Mark, Jonah, Enoch, Cain etc, etc
TYPOLOGICAL BIBLE STUDIES
Just as there is a system of studying Biochemistry, or Embryology or any subject, there is a system to studying the Bible for those for who Bible study has been a treasure, and a pleasure.
@ the Hood
I have since been made to understand that they adhere to this Christian Worldview belief as I suppose all these evangelical sects do. Bear in mind that these evangelical sects have men like one Ted Haggard as one of their leaders in the umbrella organisation.
Please tell me what is the Christian Worldview Sir, because I have never heard of it.
What is an evangelical sect Sir? Do you mean the Evangelical wing of the Anglican Church? The United Methodist Church? The Church of God? The Wesleyan Holiness Church? And all the denominations that emerged from the Methodists Church? Do you mean the Baptist church or the Brethren Church?
Which of these “sects” have an umbrella organization?
Tell us about the umbrella organization that all of these “sects” fall under, Sir?
Do you know any Church History at all?
Is Christianity not also called a sect I the book of Acts?
I found that every time I read a comment by the “BU trinity” a heavy, desolate atmosphere would overcome me. I reasoned to myself that if what they were trying to teach was by the Holy Spirit then why was I getting these discomfitting feelings. After all, I have learnt from scripture that the Holy Spirit is really supposed to be the COMFORTER and the CONFIRMER of TRUTH but there was no comforting feeling or confimation that I was witnessing truth.
Was Jesus, Peter, Paul led by the Holy Spirit?
Was Moses, Samuel, the OT prophets both oral and written led by the Holy Spirit?
Were people comforted by their message at all times, or at any time? Who were comforted and who were not comforted?
Can you answer these questions citing relevant scriptures to support your view?
The Holy Spirit is said to be allos paracletos (translated another comforter in John).
Can you tell me how the word paracletos is translated elsewhere in the NT, and what is the sense in which the word is used? E.g in 1 John 2:2 where it is translated ADVOCATE?.
The Holy Spirit does not only lead us into all truth but he also vconvicts the world of sin, inter alia.
Have you ever seriously studied the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Have you ever read the Pneumatology chapter in any Systematic Theology on the Doctrine of the Holy Spirit, or are you just using the jargon?
@ Hood
What is the relationship between Genesis Chapter 15 and Romans chapter 4.
What is the significance of the word BELIEVE?
What does this word really mean?
How is this word used in the Hebrew and the Koine Greek?
Genesis Chapter 15
1. After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2. And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3. And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4. And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7. And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8. And he said, LORD God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
Romans Chapter 4
1. What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Onlookers:
I see Ms Hopi — sadly, predictably — cannot keep a civil tongue in her head nor does she understand subsistence agriculture [the type of small farming to feed oneself and raise a bit of money from cash crops that characterised the vast majority of humanity for most of its history] — which, BTW, my father grew up under.
A def’n courtesy the 101-level, first look reference, Wiki:
Going beyond that, Hopi seemingly forgets that there is a regional and international effort to aid Haiti in the aftermath of a capital city smashing disaster. As in, let us remind ourselves of the ostensible focus of this thread:
Enough on responding to red herrings strawmen and personalities motivated in the end by antichristian animus!
For, this thread is not about that, but about how we may help our sister Caribbean nation.
So, let us at least look at another video on incubator power; to help us get back on track.
Here, the Indians get serious about supporting an entrepreneurship culture:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nfISHC0bXM&hl=en_US&fs=1&]
G’day
Dictionary
To all haters of GP, Zoe & Dicionary
I give you two scriptures
Romans 8:28-38 & Romans 14:4
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 14:4. Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
I thank God that when we stand at the BEMA (I Cor 3 & 2 Cor 5:10) that none of you will be the judge.
PS: Are we willing to invest the 15 minutes to watch?
Then, let us discuss:
1] Why is India focussing on incubators for small and medium sized (and micro) enterprises, with an emphasis on distributed development — as opposed to big city development?
2] What are the existing strategic assets for enterprise and where are the gaps they are spotting?
3] How are they setting about bridging these, and fostering a culture of widespread successful entrepreneurship in India?
4] Why is it that one entrepreneur — who did not initially have his father’s blessing — find it possible to live on the incubator’s campus for three years [while hosting his enterprise in Bldg A1 IIRC for 5 – 6 years], and why did he speak of the training and support programme there as comparable to an MBA in enterprise?
5] What about the women’s micro-enterprise incubator programme, and the attached college for women?
6] What lessons and pointers can we draw for Haiti and for the wider Caribbean? (Note especially how the Indians are plainly looking over their shoulders at China.)
7] From this, how could an incubator strategy be deployed in Haiti — and in the wider region — with what “backative”?
8] How could such an initiative be cross-linked to agriculture development and creation of a sustainable construction industry?
9] And?
Good lawdie,
I gave money to Starcom, the Salvation Army and donated money to my church for Haiti. Yet some fella pun BU want me to build bamboo houses, give every child in Haiti a laptop, teach de Haitians how to farm, run manufacturing firms, establish trade pacts, improve health and education facilities and ah don’t know wuh else!! Look ease up pun muh yuh hear! I got to get ready for work tomorrow and with did recession on I ain’t even sure I gwine have a job by de end of the week. I, Onlookers Theobald Holder can’t do no more for Haiti. I think dis fella dat confusing muh head should write the US embassy or de Caricom secretariat and send dem all dis information which I sure they have never heard before and would be only too glad to find out now. As for me, Onlookers T. Holder, I dun wid dat.
OH:
A nice summary of what our region should be looking to partner with the Haitians — 56% of Caricom’s population — to achieve.
Especially, by way of helping Haiti get leverage with the international community on the aid it needs — oh, as a first guess about US$ 21 bn + US$ 900 Mn worth [with France and the USA at the head of the queue . . . ].
BTW, though, Bamboo timber and bamboo bahareque are not bamboo houses! (No more than pine wood framed roofs make concrete houses into pine houses.)
Dictionary
PS: Did it occur to you that heavy regional regional involvement in the long term Haiti redevelopment and transformation process would have many direct and indirect positive economic spin-offs across the region; though that is most definitely not the main motive? (As well, such would help unify our region and would repay a historic debt to those whose ancestors’ sacrifices made a major contribution to accelerating the ending of slavery?)
@ Dr. GP
Please tell me what is the Christian Worldview Sir, because I have never heard of it.
Please reference post by Zoe, your sidekick, below.
……………………………………………………
Zoe // February 13, 2010 at 6:26 PM
If ANYONE, had posted a fraction of the info and constructive IDEAS that Dictionary HAS posted, re the Reconstruction of Haiti, they would have been highly commended, by the rant and rave *diehards* on BU, but, because Dictionary IS a Christian, ALL of this diatribe, DISTRACTION, DISTORTION, demonization of his character, is pursued with vehement hatred, scorn and ignorance, for anyone adhering to the **Christian Worldview**
Only just realised that the last few posts reverted to my old ID “robin hood”. Not too sure how that occurred but I am only too aware these infernal machines seem to have a mind of their own sometimes.
@ The Hood
You scare the bushman Mr Hood.
Your simple straightforward logic; your general lack of verbal malice; your independence of thought…..
..can it be?
..that you actually understand!!??
@You Mr.Dictionary mba, phdick etc…. Now pray tell, if a nation can cultivate and produce food for one of the biggest international markets, wouldn’t that translate into that same nation being able to do same for self unless there were/are mitigating external factors which would have impeded that nation from sharing in these same fruits of her labour.
Haiti has been subsistent. Yet you’ve chosen to be blinded to the shenanigans of external forces which forced the farmers off their land and into the capital which just by coincidence happened to be in the path of the quake.
Man I think you should leave your sermons for the members in your pews.
Hood
Now can you answer any of the questions I asked you?
I do not use the term Christian world view OK. I search and study the Scritures and share what I have found in my study. And there are many in every country where I have shared the world, who were able to learn much from my teaching.
And I dont have any side kicks OK But I do have a great respect for men who rightly divide the Word of truth as Zoe does. His exegesis is sound.
Bush Tea // February 14, 2010 at 7:25 PM
@ The Hood
You scare the bushman Mr Hood
……………………………………………………
By, no means, Sir, is there any intent to scare anyone. As a matter of fact, I get the impression that Dr. GP, Zoe et al think that there is hatred in my heart towards them but nothing is further from the truth. I just understand things somewhat different to them. That is, what little I do understand. Believe me, I consider myself but a babe when it comes to the Gospel but I try to rely on the Holy Spirit of that being, I think you refer to Him as the BBE (BIG Boss Engineer?) but whom I prefer to call Heavenly Father ( I kinda smiled to myself when I saw that you call him BBE, this was at least a year or two ago!). However, for sometime now I have been trying to get things in perspective, little by little, and what they put forth, and the way in which they do so, just doesn’t sound so right by me compared with what I read and witness for myself. Follow me??
@ Georgie Porgie // February 14, 2010 at 9:42 PM
“But I do have a great respect for men who rightly divide the Word of truth as Zoe does. His exegesis is sound.”
……………………………………………………
In this case, Dr., I would like to kindly suggest that you continue following the doctrines as expounded by “Mr” Zoe and just ignore whatsoever I post. Remember, according to yourself and “Mr” Zoe I am a fool and do not know anything about that which I post. So why bother with what ever little comments I may make in passing. If whatever I say is of no consequence to the “BU trinity” then why waste any of your time and electricity to respond to me?
I can answer or not answer any or all of your questions as I so choose but are you really interested or are you just trying to get me to provide “fodder for the cannon”?
Hood
You do not know me
You do not know my intent or desires.
I shared with you certain basic principles which I learnt and have followed, and which I teach , and from which others have learned
I asked you certain questions.
You say that you are a babe and that you dont know much. That is obvious to me. I have very patiently explained certain things to you that you obviously do not know. Is that providing fodder for a cannon?
Re
In this case, Dr., I would like to kindly suggest that you continue following the doctrines as expounded by “Mr” Zoe and just ignore whatsoever I post.
BTW I dont follow the doctrines as expounded by Zoe. I follow what I have gleaned by studying the Scripture for myself.
I agree with what Zoe says about the passages he has exgeted and the way he exegetes same, because way back I read a set of books by the recently deseased RB Thieme , who was a Hebrew and Greek scholar trained at Dallas Theological Seminary. I would love to think that after 40 years that I would know sound exegesis, and not need to follow Zoe.
and BTW, I have never heard anyone correctly Edivide the word who was not spirit led. I john 2:20 & 27 teaches that the Spirit is the believers resident tutor.
Dr. GP,
I have come to realise that because of our different perspectives no matter what I say, the BU trinity” seem only waiting to jump all over whatsoever I may put forward.
I daresay that perhaps if we had been able to talk face to face and clear up any misconceptions immediately as they occur then, maybe, I say maybe with some reservations, we could understand each other somewhat better. I say this because I know that the atmosphere that would exist in personal contact cannot be the same as the typewitten contact. You will understand, written English sometimes is not able to convey what spoken English can. The written word can sometimes be very ambiguous at times moreso than the spoken word. Also, in a physical conversation body language, eye contact etc, etc would come in to play and assist both sides to better understanding. I don’t know if you are following what I am trying to say but so be it.
Suffice it to say that I believe that we would have to agree to disagree on some points rather than becoming disagreeable. I am sure that you, Zoe et al would have SOME truth just as I would have some and that we could put it all together and come to a better understanding. However, I realise that you guys THINK that you have ALL the truth and everyone else ought to make way to you. But I humbly beg to differ.
Now, back to you……………..
@ Dr. GP
“…….and BTW, I have never heard anyone correctly Edivide the word who was not spirit led. I john 2:20 & 27 teaches that the Spirit is the believers resident tutor…………..”
……………………………………………………
And are you quite sure that they ARE dividing the word correctly, and do you really KNOW by what SPIRIT they are so dividing the word?
You see Dr. I have been taught that we are all born with the Spirit of Christ within us. And we have the right to the guidance of that Spirit; unless we so deny that Spirit’s growth and thereby become so incompatible with that Spirit that the light we had within us fades to darkness. Right or wrong?
There is merit in what you say re tete a tete communication vs online communication.
And in all interactions between persons folk often have to agree to disagree on some points.
I dont think that we think that we have all the truth. Neither of us has said so. I think that we have studied well, over a long period of time and read many of the approved texts, and that we have a fairly good grasp of the topics that we have presented on BU.
I dont think that we think that everyone else ought to make way to you. I dont ask anyone to make way or even agree. I ask always that folk search the scriptures for themselves like the saints at Berea (Acts 17) to see if the things I say are true or not. I always give references, and I note that Zoe also does the same.
I am not interested in getting any one to come to my church or do anything beside check out what the Bible says.
As a teacher, whether in medicine or Bible I prepare well and I teach with confidence and authority. If folk call that arrogance so be it. Be good
@GP
At issue here maybe explained by what the most rev archbishop hon Dr. John Holder was reported in the news yesterday. He was heard to tell his priest to go out and spread the word, with love.
@GP
“….and BTW, I have never heard anyone correctly Edivide the word who was not spirit led. I john 2:20 & 27 teaches that the Spirit is the believers resident tutor…..”
……………………………………………………
You will understand, Dr. that this is what presents a great problem to me.
How do you KNOW that the word is being divided CORRECTLY? And by what Spirit is it being divided?
Aren’t we all born with the Spirit/Light of Christ within us? And, except if we deny the growth of this Spirit to the point of incompatibility, don’t we all have the right to the influence of said Spirit/light of Christ ? Right or wrong?
@ GP,
You see, Dr., this is where you and I differ greatly. You believe that the Book of Revelations closes the Canon of God’s word to us whereas I do not so believe. Why should this be so? Aren’t we entitiled to ongoing revelation from a loving Heavenly Father? How do we know if what we may hear or be taught is true except it be revealed to us by heavenly powers?
Did God not tell us in Amos 3:7 “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” ?
Aren’t we entitled to be led by prophets today just as people of olden times were led by prophets? If not, then, why not?
Onlookers:
First, a thought: in the increasingly competitive global C21, either you will be world class, or you will be the lunch served to the class.
Sadly, instead of focussing on how to help Haiti — and on how to also get our regional economic and development house in order — the by now predictable distractive rhetorical sniping rooted in antichristian animus continues.
[Notice how there has not been a single serious nibble on say what the Chinese ands Indians are doing to move their people into the C21 world through serious cultivation of entrepreneurship. FYI, that is 2.3 Bn of the world’s population right there, in the two most powerful “3rd world” countries. Perhaps that should tell us something, if we are listening . . . and not just to help Haiti.]
Now, too, I see where the same individual who called for — and has never retracted that call to hateful, murderous violence — arson against churches based on a racialist slander against the gospel, is now resorting to what I have to call an outright lie by willful neglect of duty to truth and fairness:
1 –> It is sad that when I should be working with people who are seriously reflecting on the issues highlighted above based on the Indian government’s incubator initiative video, instead I now have to correct plainly malicious misrepresentation, amounting to passive lying: willful neglect of duty to truth and fairness.
2 –> In fact, a simple glance at this January 18 blog post (based on a series of remarks in an earlier thread at BU) — frequently linked, even in this thread — and/or paying modest attention to the discussion in previous threads or above — would have shown that I have discussed the historic and current roots of Haiti’s rural-urban troubles, internal and external.
3 –> I have also linked and discssed Dr Horatio Morgan’s apt corrective analysis to the ill-founded dependency thesis which this commenter seems to uncritically embrace.)
4 –> As for the specific problem of the subsidisation of the town and the associated degradation of the countryside, I have long since summarised and pointed to the classic sources on this, starting with Adam Smith’s analysis, and going right up to de Soto’s current breakthrough analysis. both point unmistakably in the direction of promoting distributed, market and entrepreneurship-savvy development that does not neglect or starve the countryside and the small towns of resources and opportunities, which is what tends to create socially explosive, disaster-vulnerable mass urban poverty.
5 –> I have also highlighted through the linked and embedded videos above how current development thinking stresses decentralised development that moves out to the villages and the small towns, leveraging the power of instant digital communications. (Note my example of Junction, St Elizabeth, Jamaica, which in recent years has become a quite respectable small town, not just a village at a road junction.)
6 –> For further instance, I have pointed to the significance of such ICTs for the creation of networked micro-campus centres. This, as the building up of human capital in a world that shifts to and leverages the power of the bit, is the single most strategically vital move for any serious nation or region.
7 –> As tot he role of the international powers, surely the informed onlooker will recognise instantly why I spoke above of “A nice summary of what our region should be looking to partner with the Haitians — 56% of Caricom’s population — to achieve. Especially, by way of helping Haiti get leverage with the international community on the aid it needs — oh, as a first guess about US$ 21 bn + US$ 900 Mn worth [with France and the USA at the head of the queue . . . ].”
8 –> And on broader rural development, let me again excerpt my earlier specific remarks, as an appendix.
__________________
Okay, i trust we can buckle down to serious thinking and pulling together ideas that we can use to help build a consensus across the region on where we need to go to partner with our sister Caribbean nation on facing this horrendous challenge.
G’day
Dictionary
APPENDIC: Jan 24 update to the already linked main Jan 18 blog post on the Haiti challenge, in turn based on remarks made at BU in an earlier thread:
__________________
1 –> One of the key blights of Haiti (and Kingston, Ja etc) is the problem of urban migration of rural people, as the countryside has been long starved of opportunity and attractions.
2 –> This, due to the problem of subsidising the town at the expense of the country that Adam Smith long ago analysed. For, urban concentrations draw the eye and the effort, while rural people, being dispersed, are easily overlooked; to the predictable detriment of both — rural stagnation, loss of ability of a nation to feed itself from its own resources, and urban blight with high unemployment, poverty and crime.
3 –> But in our time of networked multimedia communications, there is no good reason why villages should not grow into small townships with quite good enough facilities and resources; creating a nation-wide network of distributed centres that avert the denudation, idling and depopulation of the countryside and the creation of overpopulated, overstressed, explosive and unsustainable urban concentrations. (I think here of SE St Elizabeth, Ja, and the astonishing development of the township of Junction as an informal model to study and learn from.)
4 –> A key step is the de-bureaucratisation of business formation and taxing systems. For, as De Soto showed convincingly for Peru [cf Institute for Liberty and Democracy here], a lingering mercantilist pattern of regulation, monopoly and cartel easily emerges that locks out the innovative small or micro entrepreneur through creating a bureaucratic maze backed up by blocking access to capital save by the already established.
5 –> The rise of capital starved informal micro enterprises, squatting on/”capture” of lands, inability to acquire lands, etc etc are all characteristic features of such, and are already depressingly familiar from a simple glance at Haiti (and of course Jamaica etc).
6 –> Instead, regulatory and taxing systems need to be greatly simplified, more comprehensible to the uninitiated, helping-oriented and less punitive. On this De Soto’s comparison that similar businesses took an afternoon to set up in Miami [no bribes] and a year or so in Peru [with bribes], is telling.
7 –> Similarly, his contrast of two neighbouring communites in Peru, one ghetto-like, the other showing obvious pride of ownership, is telling. When people can own their own land and homes, they have ownership and access to a capital base that can give collateral for prudent business investments [and if designed right, can often house the relevant cottage industry — think of the old fashioned tailor shop fronting the house, or shop below, residence above etc].
8 –> Multiply by strategic cash crops [including the ever-growing list of nutraceuticals, especially superfruit tree crops — reforestation!], agricultural co-ops and competent marketing systems that turn small plots into mini cash cows.
9 –> Blend in well managed credit unions and development banking. (And, CDB is a world class effort along these lines. The Basic Needs Trust Fund should get injections from all sorts of people, as a way to energise a known centre of excellence.)
10 –> Take village churches, schools and community centres, and augment them to include micro-campus centres, supports for business formation and development, clinics and community micro-power radio.
11 –> Add to these the proved power of the business incubator.
12 –> Back all up by a long term programme of capacity development and transformation through education and renewal . . .
___________________
Now, can we begin to move on seriously responding to this challenge?
FOOTNOTE, o/t but important;
This, by TH, caught my eye: How do you KNOW that the word is being divided CORRECTLY?
a –> In a nutshell: The same way you know that you are reading the newspaper or a book correctly instead of irrationally skipping from phrase to phrase and making up your own “meaning.” Or the instructions on a bottle of pills prescribed by your doctor. Or, the poem in a Valentine’s day card.
b –> That is, language, geographical and historical facts are just that, and guide us to read in light of: grammar, genre, history and context (immediate and wider).
c –> Next, “knowledge” itself has a meaning: warranted, credibly true beliefs or claims; in the know-how sense, effective skills proven to be reliable in getting the job done. So, a sound reading of the Bible will be based on sound approaches, and will make best sense out of the text in its context and wider situation: factual adequacy, coherence, and sense-making power.
d –> Getting specific, try the basic primer here, which will emphasise seeking solid answers to who- what- where- when- why- how questions, by observing, understanding and applying the text in context.
e –> The problem of systematically unsound Bible reading is usually one of intellectual and/or moral blindness driven by rebellion against the truth one knows or should know. When it is gone far enough, the deceived person is so locked into error that he rejects the truth when presented to him because it seems “nonsensical” and/or he is emotionally poisoned against those who tell him the unwelcome truth, as Jesus had to speak about in Jn 8:31 – 47. (BTW, that is part of why the distract- distort- demonise game so habitually indulged by those shaped by today’s new incivility is so dangerous.)
f –> The Spirit of God will convict of sin, righteousness and judgement, and will help open the eyes and hearts of those who will but open themselves up to receive the first steps of truth and right. (And that “heaviness” you spoke of above, might just be the first steps of conviction.)
g –> I also caution you that a mere subjective “burning in the breast” is of no evidential value — our emotions can be stirred in many ways. Instead, follow the advice of Paul:
h –> You will find that he historic Christian faith runs in an unbroken line of testimony and solid scholarship all the way back to the NT. Here is a cite from the first circle of writing Fathers, c. 100 AD, in words that are very close indeed to the well-known Apostles’ creed and the Nicene creed, and of course tot he substance of the creedal hymns and sayings recorded in the NT, such as in 1 Cor 15:1 – 11, Phil 2:5 – 11, Heb 1:1 – 14 [which could have been purpose-written to correct LDS errors] etc etc, and the recorded early sermons:
i –> And to provide a good online-accessible external testing of Mormonism, I highly recommend the resources here. (I already gave links on where one can start thinking on the Christian faith above and in previous threads. I will append a couple of these again, as I don’t want to exceed the tight links budget here at UD.)
D
PS: On the basic credibility of the NT here, and on the key errors of skeptics, here.