Submitted by Crusoe (as a comment on the Haiti We Are Sorry blog
You list some good ideas for the structural retransformation of Haiti [Responding to Commenter Dictionary on the Haiti We Are Sorry blog]. Each in of themselves they do not depend on improved education but do depend on improved technical training (farming etc). However, for all, the long-term success of those initiatives individually and collectively leading to a successful Haiti will certainly also depend on improved education, if as we have been informed, the literacy level is so low.
This has two implications.
Firstly, immediately after initial search, rescue, medical, temporary (short and medium term) and security issues have been addressed as priority, the early reformation must include an immediate education programme, for adult and youth, such that the transformation of Haiti can begin with the active participation of her people, not as ‘serfs’ but as active individuals and communities with an understanding of the reasoning behind the methods and the aim of the methods.
I must add, that ‘transformation’ in this context is not meant to refer to bringing Haiti to the same philosophical outlook as anyone other specific group. In this context it is meant to refer to bringing Haiti to a level of self-capability and self-determination. Now, to expect say a three or four year ‘crash course’ in education and technical skills may seem either impossible or unrealistic, but unfortunately, if this is not done as one of the foundations of the rebuilding (in the context of not only structural, but as a nation of people), than all else may eventually prove futile.
This is obviously along the lines of the old phrase of teaching a man to fish instead of giving him the fish. Merely putting up structures, farms etc may certainly alleviate some misery, but while in the short term foreign contractors etc may gain much from the aid given for this purpose, the long-term goal should be to have Haitians and not only elite, but the everyday Haitian, benefit from money flows and thus create an independent people and a vibrant economy.
It is my view therefore Caricom leaders, should address the education of Haiti, as a priority, as much a priority as any other redevelopment effort.
To reinforce a point, the initial effort must not only be to set up an improved schooling system, but implement as an interim measure, an ’emergency education programme’, with the help of international authorities and the Haitian authorities. If one wants a long-term Haiti, this is essential.
We must give thanks yet again, that Errol Barrow saw the necessity of education as a developmental tool. And, we must forever resist ANY attempts to take free education from Barbadians. Indeed, those of us who wish for an improved world, must seek the furtherance of a sound even if basic education, for all peoples, as a necessity for development.
1,421 responses to “The Reconstruction And Transformation Of Haiti: A Global-Moral Imperative”
Zoe for example is in the top drawer with his greek exegesis. I think folk should learn from that and forget the rest.
The fact that there is “the rest” by your admission proves my point.
How and why should people, when he is supposed to be an example for us sinners to follow?
Man..I gine back under my comforter ya!
Who god bless, no man curse
Thank god I am not the worst
Techie
Zoe for example is in the top drawer with his greek exegesis. CANT BE DENIED
NOTE THE BRILLIANT WORD STUDY ABOVE.
Re The fact that there is “the rest” by your admission proves my point.
THERE IS “REST” IN THE BEST OF US TECHIE.
Re
How and why should people, when he is supposed to be an example for us sinners to follow?
Why not? There is some good in all of us, and some bad. FOLLOW THE GOOD AND DISCARD THE BAD.
Is that not how you read? Or watch tv?
I am sure you have not been emulating the behavior you see in CSI or Criminal Minds or etc etc inter alia but the Science and Computer Technology et is interesting.
Man..go back under your comforter man! LOL!
@ Georgie Porgie // February 9, 2010 at 11:49 AM
Zoe reported on BU what is common knowledge about the Mormons as obtained from Mormons themselves…
……………………………………………………
My reply to the above is only ONE word:- REALLY?????
……………………………………………………
Anon pointed out that Mormons are essentially Protestants like most of us.
……………………………………………………
My reply:- I beg to differ, the LDS Church in NOT Protestant. We are not PROTESTING anything, we are declaring RESTORED Gospel Principles (as restored by the Lord himself!), Principles that were lost during the Great Apostasy of the DARK AGES.
Neither is the LDS an offshoot of Roman Catholocism as so many of today’s organisations are. We stand alone! And we will remain alone under the direction of the Lord Himself!
And, my dear Sir, you, Zoe, Dick et al, can rave and rant ’till de cows come home and it ain’t gonna make one iota of difference to me or the LDS Church! I’ve heard it all over the last 25/30 years. So this is now all water off of a duck’s back!
So wheel and come again! Ah Lie!
Over to you, AH Gorn!
Oh there is “apology” and “apologetic”.
Basically an apology is an excuse and apologetic in theologicalterms is an explanation.
In his word study Zoe has not sought to give an apology or say that he is sorry.
But his word study is an apologetic! He has exegeted and explained how the word FOOL is used in the Bible text, and demonstrated that his opponent’s attempt to castigate him for using the word is without substance.
His oppnent has not divided scripoture with scripture, and quoted a text out of its context to make a pretext! LOL
GP…..
Boy you could play wid words good.
From now on, if I cuss anyone, I will use the Bible context…lol.
Why not? There is some good in all of us, and some bad. FOLLOW THE GOOD AND DISCARD THE BAD.
What then, when the Good getting on bad….you might throw out the baby with the bathwater..lol.
CSI or Criminal Minds ?…..
GP…I grew up in Barbados, it was the bottomless chair with a water bottle on your balls or a plastic bag filled with Baygon with the telephone directory across your head for emphasis…..lmao!!
@ GP ,This is quoted from the dictionary found in MS Word. You see I too can read and use a computer!
her·me·neu·tic :-
her·me·neu·tic [hùrmə ntik]
or her·me·neu·ti·cal [hùrmə ntik’l]
adj
1. of interpretation of texts: relating to or consisting in the interpretation of texts, especially the books of the Bible
2. serving to explain: serving to interpret or explain something (formal)
……………………………………………………
ex·e·ge·sis :-
ex·e·ge·sis [èksə jssiss]
(plural ex·e·ge·ses [èksə j sz])
n
1. analysis of texts: the explanation or interpretation of texts, especially religious writings
2. interpretation of specific text: an explanation or interpretation of a specific text, especially a religious one.
Like I said, Go figure. And PRAY as well!
@ Techie,
CSI or Criminal Minds ?…..
GP…I grew up in Barbados, it was the bottomless chair with a water bottle on your balls or a plastic bag filled with Baygon with the telephone directory across your head for emphasis…..lmao!!
……………………………………………………
Techie man, yuh got muh hay, bussin’ muh guts wid laff!!
@ kiki …
Quoting kiki:
Jack
you are so insincere
typical for a big-shot
phony like you
Dear kiki,
Can you really
be this
boring
or is it simply that
you have a tragically
feeble mind?
Born, perhaps, of your
pathetic education?
May I
call you ki?
It is never a
good idea, ki,
to present the Words
of Cretins
as if they meant
something.
There is no
dishonor
in being a
dunce.
Embrace your
Idiocy.
You are boring beyond
the most tiresome dreams
of tedium.
Plus, you
make
no
sense.
@ GP, “Mr” Zoe, & Dick,
You all ain’t just apologics, wunna is poor excuses for Christians!! ROFL.
But I am thoroughly enjoying the circus show that you guys are putting on!! So please keep the acts coming! What would I do without you guys for a good laff when de day come!
Very comedic thread! Yuh sure wunna is Drs. & intellectuals or just a bunch of comedians?!
As a matter of record, the owner of this blog is the editor and publisher of this blog.
The owner decides what he will allow to be recorded on his blog.
This is a matter of record.
Hello Mr. Zoe. May your invisible guy in the sky bless you.
@Rok
How much will it cost to replace the Presidential Palace and Parliament? Together this is a hefty sum. Like we have not yet started the collection.
——————————————
Why would you want to replace the Presidential Palace?
A monument to years of dictatorship by Papa Doc Duvalier and his son Baby Doc who kept the Haitians in fear and terrible poverty for decades whilst themselves living lives of fantastic luxury?
anonymous don’t bother talking to me
Soul Galore:
michael jackson
jackie wilson
Personal fortitude and strength of character. Accumulated power set in motion towards a distant goal. The initiation of an enduring partnership based on absolute trust. Honor maintained in a time of desperate struggle. Taking full responsibility for a decision, and bearing the solitude of leadership.
@the hood, to GP, Feb, 2010, @ 12:40AM.
“Contending for the faith, REALLY? Is that what all that raving and ranting is all about? But then again what “faith” is he “contending” about? Is he really “contending” about TRUE faith, HOLY FAITH, or “Mr” Zoe’s FAITH?”
“Beloved, while I was very diligent to write you concerning OUR COMMON SALVATION, I found it necessary to write you EXHORTING you to *CONTEND* earnestly for the *FAITH* which was ONCE for ALL delivered to the saints.” (Jude 3) emphasis added.
Hood, you are so ignorant, i.e., lacking knowledge and understanding, re spiritual TRUTH, as it comes from God’s Word, the Bible, not Mormonism!
Jude was warning the early Christians about FALSE teachers, who had infiltrated the church. The FAITH…delivered to the saints..’ IS the Apostolic teaching, doctrine, FAITH, given believers in the earliest days of the church. It IS this teaching, doctrine, FAITH, that was being perverted, as it IS today by the Cults, Mormonisn, et al, for which the Church, the TRUE, ‘Body of Christ’ must earnestly CONTEND.
Now, the Christian life is no bed of roses, especially for those who have been called to EARENESTLY, *CONTEND* for the FAITH, in the face of the heretics, FALSE teachers, such as Mormonism.
Let us hear from the Greek New Testament, that the HOLY SPIRIT inspired, and the words He used in order to convery the seriousness of this imperative:
The Koine Greek word, that the HOLY SPIRIT used, that is rendered ‘TO CONTEND’ is ‘epagonzomai’ and means, ‘To carry on a CONFLICT, contest, debate,’ or ‘legal suit,’. The other associated Gk. words are, ‘Agonizomai’ meaning ‘To FIGHT’ and ‘Agon’ ‘Conflict’ ‘Fight.”
Hood, these ARE the words the HOLY SPIRIT used in recording God’s Word, to the early Christians, and our ‘FIGHT’ ‘conflict’ with those like the LDS, Mormons, who have PERVERTED the Faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We ain’t finish yet, hear some more from the Greek, used by the Holy Spirit:
‘Once’ for ALL..’ the word rendered *ONCE* is from the Greek word, ‘Hapax’ strickly numerical concept, in other word, the FAITH was delivered *ONCE* for all, not to be added to, or taken away from, as the Mormons, et al have DONE!
The word *FAITH* by context in this verse, IS not referring to the subjective faith of the believer, BUT, to the *Body* of DOCTRINAL *truth* the very essence or substance of the FAITH, Once for ALL delivered to the saints, in the SEALED canon of New Testament Scripture, not the ranting and raving of one Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, et al so-called Mormon prophets.
Secondly, I have no doubt that you enjoy sincere, good, fellowship the the elders et al daily at Mormonisn, that IS not the point of sound doctrine.
Many years ago, before I got “Saved” I was a Free Mason, and was married in the Catholic church, to a Catholic lady. Both the Free Masons and Catholic were LOVELY people, I throughly enjoyed daily fellowship with these wonderful, (sincerely deceived) people; until the Lord, through the Holy spirit, lifted the veil of deception from my spiritual eyes; being a nice, caring, person, does NOT mean, that they are spiritually RIGHT with God!
Hood, you have NOT offered one single rebuttal, based on any cogent, coherent, logical exegesis from God’s Word, the Bible, against what I have *contended* for from God’s Word.
All you have done is to passively rant and rave, with NO substance whatsoever, can you ever say, anything, that makes any coherent sense, at ALL?
Obviously not!!!
Technician
No Techie. I was not playing with words. I defined two words.
And explained what apologetics is. Apologetics is a branch of Theology OK.
And its OK for you to try to mock what I am saying.
You think I am hell bent on defence, but actually I am just trying to see if I can get you to see the other side of the story.
You see I have listened to my many Baptism preachers preach like Zoe.
I have also seen Brethren teachers say the same thing he says more diplomatically.
I am one that think that this political politeness is junk
Re From now on, if I cuss anyone, I will use the Bible context…lol.
WHAT IS SAID IS THAT ZOE EXPLAINED THAT THE WORD IS FREQUENTLY USED IN SCRIPTURE.
I have heard many parents call thier children fools and I have heard many school teachers call thier students fools. Paul called the Galatians FOOLS & SLOW OF HEART etc
Re
Why not? There is some good in all of us, and some bad. FOLLOW THE GOOD AND DISCARD THE BAD.
What then, when the Good getting on bad….you might throw out the baby with the bathwater..lol.
I have not thrown you out because you cussed Dick and consigned him to the abysss. I just told you that I expect more of you, because I respect you.
Re CSI or Criminal Minds ?…..
I was talkling about watching tv. Maybe you dont watch the show, but I do.
I grew up in Barbados, too
but I must confess I know not of what you speak below
” it was the bottomless chair with a water bottle on your balls or a plastic bag filled with Baygon with the telephone directory across your head for emphasis…..”
Hood
Again for your education
Hermeneutics is a course done in all good Theological seminaries
You’re no good –
Bad Mind Grudgeful
@GP…
As a scientific person, lets carry out an experiment.
Why did you relate to Dictionary in this way?
….”I have not thrown you out because you cussed Dick and consigned him to the abysss.
Here you said Dick, instead of Dictionary…..can you explain?
David:
Thanks.
Dictionary
@ Georgie Porgie // February 9, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Hood
Again for your education
Hermeneutics is a course done in all good Theological seminaries
……………………………………………………
OKAY! Now I fully understand just where you coming from! Now I see why your head all screwed up as regards the Gospel. Carry on regardless! and see where those “good Theological seminaries” will eventually lead you!!
I sincerely hope that one day you et al will see the LIGHT!
Why would one want “good Theological seminaries” when one can get it from THE MASTER Himself, even Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!
@Technician // February 9, 2010 at 3:34 PM
You asked GP :- Here you said Dick, instead of Dictionary…..can you explain?
……………………………………………………
Why don’t you ask ROK for the answer?
@ “Mr” Zoe,
You said :- “Many years ago, before I got “Saved” I was a Free Mason, and was married in the Catholic church, to a Catholic lady.”
……………………………………………………
And your point is? I see you said “WAS married” past tense.Do I take it you meant that after you got “saved” that she could not tolerate all the hell oh hell that you put her through after that, and tek up she tings an clear out from you!
ROFLOL
BU,
My apologies for the double posts.
What has all this bible bashing got to do with the reconstruction of Haiti?
@ ru4real // February 9, 2010 at 4:24 PM
What has all this bible bashing got to do with the reconstruction of Haiti?
……………………………………………………
I suggest you ask “Mr” Zoe, after all he started the ball rolling.
He even got me stuttering (double posts!) now
I find that the christians on here resort to lies, half-truths and even misinformation in their zeal to “prove their faith”.
This has always been a mystery to me because there is no need to prove faith and hence, by trying to prove your faith you turn out to be evil men… and rightly so because by trying to prove faith, you must falsify since there is nothing to prove, and so you are men without faith.
Much of what I see here expounded as interpretations of the scriptures are meant to send a message to readers that it is the absolute truth and are based on what we call fictions. In mathematics, it is like starting with “x” as an unknown, but based on the characteristics of “x” you can come up with a value, so you base you facts on a fiction because it follows logically, “if this, then that”. Note the “if”.
Hence, a lot of the opposition that has been put up, is not about the faith itself, but about a few zealots who misinterpret and try to play god to cover up their shortcomings.
They are of little respect too, as they continue to hijack thread after thread with their folly and long doses of salts; in the name of their god, as though they have a license to be heard and to intrude and people tend to excuse their non-broughtupsy simply because they mention god and christ.
Even the same christ said, give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto god what is god’s. If nothing else, this sends the signal that there is a time and place for everything. These men are way off base and out of bounds as they seek self aggrandisement as men of god; holey and annoynted.
God Bless You
When someone says “god Bless You” You are obligated to smack yourself in the face before five seconds passes. This “game” originated in New Jersey by the name of a fellow named Christopher Wheeler and another by the name of Matt Boyle. This game has been active for about 5 or six years now and is popular in the Tri-State area (NJ, NY, CT, PA and just expanded to TN)
International slackness
here is another artist
that you probably have
never heard before : Sam Carty ::
@ru4real
“What has all this bible bashing got to do with the reconstruction of Haiti?”
Voodoo is Devil Worship and the Mormons is in direct competition with Zoe’s Church. So is the SDA.
Ask Technician and the hood.
Next thing is that nobody here is bashing the bible, I think most would agree that the problem is the messengers and not the message. They are corrupting the message.
You must therefore make the separation; it’s a clear distinction.
::
Time Is Important Riddim Mix
::
::
Adam & Eve Riddim Mix
::
@the hood, ‘So Peter, James, John et al had Strong’s, Koine, “hermeneutics” and “exegesis” as well?
I am really sorry I have to keep saying this, but, Hood, you real ignorant in truth, ya know!!
Peter, Paul, John, James et al, where the ones, Divinely Inspired by the Holy Spirit, to PEN ALL New Testament Scripture, and as GP pointed out, when reference was made the the Old Testament Scripture, they correctly interpreted it, (hermeneutics!).
Now, it is folly, ignorance, foolishness, to ask if they used ‘Hermeneutics’ and ‘exegesis’ in writing the N.T, MAN, Hood, they WROTE by Inspiration from the Holy Spirit, WHAT, we, after the FACT, now have to use, sound prinicples of Biblical Hermeneutics, AND Greek exegesis, in ORDER, to correctly, Divide, the Word of Truth, that they wrote.
Logically, they would not require Hermeneutics and Exegesis, to be the very FIRST and ONLY ones CHOSEN by their Saviour and Lord, Jesus Christ, as He told them:
“But the Comforter, which IS the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My Name, He shall teach you ALL things, and bring ALL things to your remembrance, whatsoever, I have said to you.”
“Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of TRUTH, is come, He will guide you into ALL TRUTH: for He shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that He shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” (John 14: 26; 16: 13-15).
This happened when the Holy Spirit came upon them on the Day of Pentecost, thereafter, they wrote the synoptic Gospels, Letters, Epistles, and then the Revelation to John, closing the Canon, of God’s Word, in the New Testament.
In this absolutely, unique, divinely Inspired writing of NT Scripture, NO Hermeneutics or Exegesis, WAS required, as they were being Inspired to write Original, NT Scripture, to place the Doctrinal Content, Substance, the very essence, of God’s Word, for His True Church to have, UNTIL His Glorious return for us, to be with him!
After the FACT, (written NT) we now who are LED by the Holy Spirit, use the sound principles of Hermeneutics and Exegesis, which are linguistics laws and principles, given US by Almighty God, the Creator of language, which HE used to communicate His Word to us in the first place; therefore how a thing IS put together, NT Scripture, determines HOW it is taken apart, i.e., interpretation…good, sound, establish principles of Hermeneutics and Exegesis.
Man, Hood, is this too hard to understand?
Hood
You wrote this
OKAY! Now I fully understand just where you coming from! Now I see why your head all screwed up as regards the Gospel. Carry on regardless! and see where those “good Theological seminaries” will eventually lead you!!
I sincerely hope that one day you et al will see the LIGHT!
Why would one want “good Theological seminaries” when one can get it from THE MASTER Himself, even Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!
The following is taken from the Religious Education — MA notification on Brigham Young University”s Website
DO I SEE THE WORD SEMINARY IN THE NOTICE SIR?
Would this mean that Mormons go to seminaries too? Or would this be “, half-truths and even misinformation?”
Degree requirements
The master’s degree in religious education is open to full-time teachers in the LDS Church Seminaries and Institutes system (S&I) and approved chaplain candidates.
The master’s degree is designed to provide advanced preparation for teaching in the LDS Church Seminaries and Institutes system or for service as a military chaplain. Emphasis in the core curriculum is placed primarily on five areas: Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Latter-day Saint history.
http://www.byu.edu/gradstudies/catalog/department.php?program=141
Could yu clarify?
Zoe // February 9, 2010 at 7:29 PM
“But the Comforter, which IS the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My Name, He shall teach you ALL things, and bring ALL things to your remembrance, whatsoever, I have said to you.”
“Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of TRUTH, is come, He will guide you into ALL TRUTH: for He shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that He shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” (John 14: 26; 16: 13-15).
……………………………………………………
Well, well, at last it seems that we are getting somewhere, so you now wake up to the fact that it is the HOLY SPIRIT that will confirm all TRUTH and not Zoe, GP, or Dictionary et al nor all your “hermeneutics” and all your
“Exegesis” or all your good Theological seminaries!! Fantastic, now maybe we can move from here and build on firmer ground as opposed to the shaky ground of Zoe, GP, Dictionary, good theological seminaries etc, etc!!
Yuh now got muh interest. Next point…….. back to you. “Take 5 points and go to the top of the class” as the old,late educator, Willie(Willy?) Rudder was wont to say. And, of course, he used to teach us Latin but nothing about Greek I’m sorry to say!
@ Georgie Porgie // February 9, 2010 at 7:43 PM
Would this mean that Mormons go to seminaries too?
Could yu clarify?
……………………………………………………
Yes, I could TRY to clarify but would you or anyone else here be really, sincerely interested. I very much doubt that.
I would tell you that “seminary” here is not meant in the same way as say Anglicans or Roman Catholics etc understand “Seminary” . Futhermore, I would rather direct you to the official web site of the LDS church for further clarification if you or anyone else be so interested or inclined.
I would like to suggest here also that just as one would go to an engineer to query something in engineering, or to a carpenter for info on carpentry, or to a motor mechanic for vehicle repairs/information, I would like to ask, or suggest, that one visit the official website of the church for any queries about the organisation, rather than go by 2nd hand or 3rd hand or even 50th hand rumours as very many people seem to want to do! I am sure we are all familiar with what can happen with a report here in Barbados, when it is started in Christ Church, by the time it gets to St. Lucy the final statement would be so far removed from the original that it would be completely unrecognisable. Ah Lie?
The addresses are :- http://www.lds.org or www. mormon.org. There you would find someone standing by to answer your queries.
@ the hood, Man, The Doctrine of The Holy Spirit, the third divine person of the Eternal Godhead, is, co-equal, co-eternal, and co-existent with the Father and the Son, He *is* a distinct Person, and NOT an *it* as referred to in Mormonism by then, ‘… President Charles Penrose’s book, ‘Mormon Doctrine’ (Salt Lake City, 1888), in which over twenty times he refers to the Holy Spirit an an “it” devoid of personality, although in the usual *polytheistic* (many gods) Mormon scheme…” (The Kingdom of The Cults, p. 210).
Neither GP, Dictionary nor me, have exegeted ANY Scripture, that IS contrary to the Word of God, as Divinely Inspired by the Holy Spirit, WHO alone leads, guides, and teaches believers, whom He (not it) indwells from the moment of the New Birth, being ‘Born Again’ by Him, NOT at Baptism, as erroneously taught by Mormonisn, as spiritual regeneration preceeds water baptism!
Further, the Holy Spirit, NEVER, EVER, guides, leads, or teaches, anything, that IS contrary to the Word of God, the Bible THAT *HE* Inspired; which IS blatantly, demonstrated in Mormonisn, over and over again, in the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and other writings by Mormon authorities.
Hood, man, there IS NO way that you or any Mormon can even begin, to teach, or enlighten any of us, concerning the Holy Spirit, for YOU ALL don;t even KNOW HIM; you THINK you do, but you DON’T!!!
‘IT’ is a counterfeit spirit, masquerading as the Holy Spirit, that HAS deceived Mormonism, no wonder you refer to it, as “IT.”
Much more tomorrow on The Holy Spirit, not the “IT” that misleads you all!!!
Much more tomorrow on The Holy Spirit, not the “IT” that misleads you all!!!
And the saga continues….so much for this thread.
Is the Holy Spirit going to reconstruct Haiti?
I’m not a Bible Quoter but here’s some food for thought for y’all :
⇒ The type of bible study you are speaking of is similar to the Jews studying the Torah. They know it inside out and backwards and argue and debate points endlessly.
Many, as I’m sure you know better than I, are not bible scholars but instead love to quote, cherry-picking what supports their argument.
“They” generally don’t like getting into some of the more squeamish problems in the Bible. The value of Wisdom and knowledge are one of the contradictions in the Bible:
⇒ Proverbs 4:7
The beginning of wisdom is: get wisdom; at the cost of all you have, get understanding.
Here, we see that wisdom and understanding is a good quality and should be pursued at all cost.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:: Knowledge Wisdom and Understanding ::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
⇒ In Ecclesiastes 1:18 we find the consequences of wisdom and knowledge;
For in much wisdom there is much sorrow, and he who stores up knowledge stores up grief.
This certainly makes wisdom and knowledge something to be shunned.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:: Knowledge ::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
⇒ Then; in 1 Corinthians 1:19 we learn;
The Scripture says, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and thwart the cleverness of the clever”.
Paul really does not like those with wisdom and are clever. He even goes to the extent of making up a Scripture to support his disdain of wisdom.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:: Fight The Revolution Don Carlos
::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
⇒ And at 1 Corinthians 1:21;
Since in Gods wisdom the world did not come to know him through “wisdom”, it pleased God to save those who believe through the absurdity of the preaching of the gospel.
Now we can see that God wants to gather people without wisdom and who willingly believe in him through absurdity.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:: Satta Massa Gana
::
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Bird In Hand is actually a cover of a song from a 1950 Indian film
called “Babul” (dir. Raj Kapoor). The original song, written by
Naushad, is sung by Talat Mehmood and Shamshad Begum. If you want to
know what sam carty singing (check it out!), the original words are:
Milte hi aankhein dil hua deewana kissi ka (x2)
Afsana mera ban gaya afsana kissi ka
Puchho na mohabbat ka asar, haay na puchho
Dam bhara mein koyi ho gaya, parwaana kisika
Afsaana mera ban gaya, afsaana kisika
translated:
As soon as our eyes met, somebody’s heart went mad
My tale has happened, somebody’s tale
Don’t ask me love’s effect,_ oh, don’t ask
I took a breath and somebody happened, somebody’s lover
Lee perry (sam carty) -bird in hand+original indian version frome 1950
Where’s the Bible Bash man ?
Living On Borrowed Time ?
Anyone like (love) Israel Vibration ?
@ Zoe // February 9, 2010 at 11:54 PM
“Mr” Zoe, I most humbly thank you, GP, Dick et al for this and all the other discourses which you have so eloquently, wisely, and knowledgably provided here for my unlearned mind.
You, Zoe, have even called me (see Feb. 7, 2010 @ 11:38am) a fool, idiot, hornswoggle fool, unlearned and Lord knows whatever else as you so eloquently villified me but you know something, I’d rather remain all you claimed that I am than to be such a wise, learned man like you! I say this because of the lack of influence of the Holy Spirit that I discern in you, Zoe.
I note that KiKi has already quoted some applicable scriptures for your attention, I will now refer you to yet another one :- 1 Cor 1: 17,19-22,26-27.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom. (like ZOE et al, my note).
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.
So, you see, “Mr” Zoe et al, all your wisdom and knowledge etc is not going to mean one iota for your redemption nor all your…. “good, sound, establish principles of Hermeneutics and Exegesis (your words) nor all your good theological seminaries! You want to know what will redeem you? The Grace of God is what will redeem you, when you are able to purify your mind and your heart to HIS satisfaction, not man’s own. Not this “holier than thou” attitude that I discern to emanate from you. All He wants is a “broken heart and a contrite spirit” go read it’s there in your bible. And after all that, live your life to so reflect the influence of His Holy Spirit in thought, word and deed enduring to the END!
@Kiki, Feb 10, 2010 @ 6:27AM.
This IS exactly the kind of so-called contradictions in the Bible, I expected from your ‘native’ American buddy, viewed entirely from a ‘secular’ humanistic, worldly (wisdom) oriented mindset! True to form.
Proverbs 4:7, “Wisdom IS the principle thing; Therefore get wisdom.And in ALL your getting, get understanding.”
Then you come and quote Ecclesiastes 1:18:
“In Ecclesiastes 1:18 we find the consequences of wisdom and knowledge; for in much wisdom there is more sorrow, and he who store up knowledge store up grief.”
“This certainly makes wisdom and knowledge something to be shunned.”
This attempt to suggest that ‘…wisdom and knowledge (is) something to be shunned.” by not understanding what is going on in Ecclesiastes and the background against which Solomon expressed his pessimistic tone, and the very reasons why he so wrote, AND by not taking the entire *context* of the book, what he said before AND after 1:18, is so typical of natural men (pseuchikos de anthropos) as your native American buddy, is!
I will quote from the “Spirit Filled Life Bible”, (NKJV) and its comments and observations re Eccesliastes, with which I concur:
“Ecclesiastes is generally credited to Solomn (about 971 to 931 B.C.), written in his old age. The rather pessimistic tone that pervades the book would be in keeping with Solomon’s spiritual state at the time (see 1 Kings 11). Although not mentioned in 1 Kings, Solomon must have come to his senses before his death, repented, and turned back to God. Solomon was obviously in an *apostate* condition, which reveals the tone and language he used at times.”
“The book evinces a time when traditional solutions to life’s great questions, particularly the meaning of life, have lost their relevance for the author. Rather than respond to such questions with citations from Scripture, the Preacher (Solomon) introduces a methodology that IS predicated on observation and induction. Wisdom, when found on other wisdom literature of the Boble (Job, Proverbs, and certain Psalms), IS a synonym for *virtue* and *piety*; its antithesis, *FOLLY*, thus becomes “wickedness.” In the book of Ecclesiates, the word “wisdom” is sometimes used in this manner when dealing with conventional Israelite interpretation of wisdom (as in 7:1-8:9; 10:1-11:6). But in the opening chapter (1:12-18) the author deals with wisdom that is a process of pure thought, more like Greek philosophy, the enduring worth of which he questions.”
“The book of Ecclesiastes gives every evidence of being a carefully composed literary essay that MUST be grasped as a TOTALITY before it can be understood in part. The content of the book IS defined by nearly identical verses (1:2; 12:8), which circumscribe the book by anticipating AND by summarizing the conclusion of the author. The *theme* IS set forth in 1:3: “What profit has a man from all his labor in which he toils under the sun [that is, in this life]?” OR, can TRUE wisdom be found by a human being APART from revelation from God?’
“The Preacher’s quest is for some sort of fixed, unchanging value (“profit”) that can be found in this life (“under the sun”) that can serve as a basis for proper living. The Hebrew word translated “profit” is ‘vitron’ (1:3), and may also be translated “gain, value,” “Vanity” IS a key word in the book , translating the Hebrew ‘hebel’ (literally, “breath”), thus indicating what is mortal, transitory, and of no permanence. As he tries each of the avenues proposed by humanity (human wisdom) to achieve the value being sought, he finds them ELUSIVE (“grasping for the wind”) and fleeting, transitory (“vanity”).
“The “wisdom” of 1:12-18 IS found BANKRUPT of real value. Neither is the answer to be found in pleasure, in wealth, in great accomplishments (2: 1-11), in a doctrine of retibution (2: 12-17), or in materialism (2: 18-20).”
“Although he does not specifically state it as such, the logic that undergirds his ENTIRE quest compels him to find the ONLY real ‘yitron’ (profit) in the fear (reverence) and obedience of God (11: 7-12:7). This IS affirmed in the epilogue: reverence for God and keeping His commandments ARE the WHOLE duty of mankind (12:13). This duty MUST be carved out in full knowledge that, while there is no real justice to be had in this life, God will eventually judge ALL that is and set it right (11: 9; 12:14) On this profound note the book concludes.”
Kiki, this IS why verses MUST never be lifted or taken OUT of the entire CONTEXT of any book or discourse in the Bible, otherwise, you END up with an utter “pretext” which IS exactly what your friend has done!
When, then, one understand the ENTIRE context in which Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes, and his concluding, profound words, THEN, Proberbs 4:7, ‘Wisdom (God’s Wisdom) IS the principle thing: Therefore GET wisdom. And in ALL your GETTING, get understanding.” IS what Solomon concludes by saying in Ecclesiastes.
The ‘wisdom’ of the secular world, philosophy, higher education, regardless of which discipline it comes from, IF, IT IS NOT the *Wisdom* of God, from above, NOT below, IT IS all FOLLY, foolishness, and ignorance, IN the ultimate going down, AS all we have as finite human being, is transitory, fleeting, passing away, BUT, God’s WISDOM, given to His Redeemed Children IS from Him.
Now, your buddy, then tries to belittle Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:19, 21, as to be expected, as your buddy’s ‘wisdom’ IS not from God, but wordly, secular knowledge, folly, foolishness, why do I say this?
Let us hear and listen to Paul, who was divinely Inspired, as he wrote:
Christ the Power and Wisdom of God.
“For the message of the cross (Jesus’ crucifixion and death) IS *foolishness* to those who are perishing, BUT to us who are being saved IT IS the POWER of God.” (v.1)
Now we come to the next verse, where Paul specifically, then states, by quoting from Isaiah 29: 14b,
“I WILL destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” (v.19).
There IS absolutely NO contradiction whatsoever, with Proverbs 4:7, and what Paul is saying here in 1 Corinthians 1: 19, why not?
Because Provebs IS extolling all men, to GET God’s WISDOM, and UNDERSTANDING, not the wisdom of godless philosophers, et al, who KNOW NOT God’s Wisdom and understanding; so that Paul reference to Isaiah the prophet as he spoke God’s Word, IS saying that THIS *godless” wisdom of the so-called ‘wise’ men, who KNOW not God, will be *destroyed* ‘…And bring to NOTHING the (FOOLISH) understanding of the (so-called) prudent.” (v. 19).
Paul then goes on, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, AND NOT as your buddy stupidly says, ‘…goes to the extent of making up a Scripture to support his disdain of wisdom.” Utter NONSENSE, but what else can be expected to come from such a spiritually ‘inept’ mind, as your buddy!
Hear from God’s Word, not the folly of unsaved men!
“Where Is the wise? Where IS the scribe? Where IS the disputer of this age? Has not God MADE FOOLISH the wisdom (secular) of this world?”
“For since, in the WISDOM of God the world (unsaved men) the world through wisdom (not of God!) DID NOT KNOW God. It pleased God through the foolishness (appears that way!) of the message preached to save those who believe.”
But God has chosen the foolish things (appears so the the unsaved!) to PUT TO SHAME the wise (those who THINK they are!) and God has the weak (appears so!) things of the world, to PUT TO SHAME the things which are mighty (appears so!): And the base things of the world and the things which are despised, God has chosen, and the things which are NOT, to bring to NOTHING the things that are.” (vv. 20, 21, 27, 28).
Exegesis:
“For the word of the cross (ho logos gar ho tou staurou). Literally, “for the preaching (with which I am concerned as the opposite of ‘wisdom of word in verse 17 that (repeated article ‘ho’ almost demonstrative ) of the cross.” Through this incidental allusion to preaching, Paul passes to a new subject. The discussion in the Corinthian Church are for a time forgotten, and he takes the opportunity of correcting his converts for their undue exaltation of human eloquence and wisdom” (Lightfoot). “To them that are perishing’ (tois men apollumenois). dative of disadvantage (personal interest). Present middle participle is here timeless, those IN the path of destruction (not annihilation). See 11 Thess. 2:10). Cf. 11 Cor. 4:3. “FOOLISHNESS’ (moria). FOLLY, Old word from ‘moros’ FOOLISH. In N.T. only in 1 Cor. 1:18, 21, 23; 2:14; 3: 19. ‘But unto us which are being saved’ ( tois sozomenois hemin). Sharp contrast to those WHO are perishing and same contruction with the articular praticiple. God’s POWER IS shown in the preaching of the Cross of Christ, which seems to be foolishness to the unsaved, their godless ‘wisdom’ CANNOT fathom the preaching of the Cross of Christ! The wisdom of the so-called wise, IS often FOLLY, the understanding of the understanding is often rejected. There IS such a thing as the IGNORANCE of the learned, the wisdom of the simple-mined. God’s WISDOM *rises* in the Cross sheer human philosophizing, which IS still SCOFFING at the Cross of Christ, the consummation of God’s Power.”
“Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world?” (Pou sophos; pou grammateus; pou sunzetetes tou aionos toutou;). Paul makes use of Isa. 33: 18 without exact quotation. Note the absence of the Greek article in each of these rhetorical questions, though the idea IS clearly definite. Probably ‘sophos’ refers to the Greek philosopher, ‘grammateus’ to the Jewish scribe and ‘sunzetetes’ suits both the Greek and Jewish disputant and doubter (Acts. 6:9; 9:29; 17: 18; 28: 29). There is a note of triumph in these questions. The word ‘sunzetetes’ occurs here alone in the N.T. and elesewhere only in Ignatius, Eph 18 quoting this passage, but the papyri give the verb ‘sunzeteo’ for disputing (questioning together). ‘Hath not God made FOOLISH?” ( ouchi emoranen ho theos;). Strong negative form with aorist active indicative difficult of precise translation, “Did not God make foolish?” The old verb ‘moraino’ from ‘moros’, FOOLISH, was to be FOOLISH as in Rom. 1:22; in Matt. 5:13 and Luke 14: 34 it is used of salt that is tasteless. ‘World’ (kosmou). Synonymous with ‘aion’ (age), orderly arrangement, then the non-Christian cosmos.”
“Seeing that (epeide). Since (epi and de) with explanatory ‘gar’. “Through its wisdom” (dia tes sophias). ‘Knew NOT God” (ouk egno). Failed to KNOW, second aorist (effective) active indicative of ‘ginosko’ solmn dirge of DOOM on both Greek philosophy and Jewish theology, that failed to KNOW God. Has modern philosophy done better? There is today even a godless theology (Hamanism). “Now that God’s wisdom has reduced the self-wise world to IGNORANCE.” (Findlay). “Through the foolishness of the preaching” ( dia tes morias tou kerugmatos). Perhaps “proclamation” is the idea, for it is not ‘keruxis’ the act of heralding, but ‘kerugma’ the message heralded or the proclamation as in verse 23. The proclamation of the Cross seemed foolishness to the wiseacres then (and now), but IT IS consummate WISDOM, God’s wisdom and good-pleasure (eudokesan). The foolishness of preaching IS NOT the preaching of foolishness. “To save them that believe” (sosai tous pisteuontas). This IS the heart of God’s plan of redemption, the proclamation of salvation for ALL those who trust Jesus Christ on the basis of His death for sin on the cross. The mystery-religions ALL offered salvation by initiation and ritual as the Pharisees did by ceremonialism. Christianity reaches the HEART directly by trust in Christ as the Saviour. IT IS GOD’S WISDOM.” (Word Pictures in The New Testament, Vol. IV, pp. 76-79) emphasis added.
The so-called wisdom of the intelligentsia of this world, IS foolishness to God; as IS the Wisdom of God, foolishness to them!!!
many thanks zoe
I have forwarded it on but it is a bit big
try writing less to make things easier
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OKay OKay lets take it from here
we need a blooming new thread fred
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:: OK FRED
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p.s. brand new crisp biscuit from
the nutty bajan bible basher for you and you
cut in pieces because it is kinda long
sorry excuse typo error with
errol dunkley link :: OK FRED ::
@ the hood, You don’t have a clue about what you are attempting to teach me!
I have been SAVED by Grace through FAITH, in Christ Jesus; not good WORKS, it cannot save anyone!
“For by Grace are ye saved through faith, and that NOT of yourselves: it IS the GIFT of God; Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast.” (Eph. 2: 8,9) emphasis added.
You KNOW nothing about me, where I have being, what I have gone through; and HOW my Saviour and Lord, Jesus Christ HAS KEPT me through it all!
You have NO idea the persecution I have endured, only BY His Grace, Mercy, and Love, I am alive. I have a living TESTIMONY, to the reality, THAT Jesus Christ, IS LORD!
I am no ‘holier’ than thou man, NOT at all, you are confusing the anointed passion, that He has given to me, by His Grace, with the kind of man I am, a caring, loving, gentle person; BUT, I will NOT sit by, and read and hear people malign, twist, pervert and concvolute His Word, the Bible, and say nothing.
Because of my firey passion for His Truth, where I do not suffer fools easily, neither did John the Baptist, Paul et al, does not mean I am not patient, kind, gentle, loving, as the ‘fruit’ of the Spirit, (Gal:5:22) IS NOT the only evidence that the Holy Spirit is with someone, IT IS also in Doctrine believed, held, and taught.
“For the FRUIT of the Spirit (The Holy Spirit) IS IN all goodness and righteousness and TRUTH.” (Eph. 5:9) emphasis added.
You hear that, Hood, ‘…is in all goodness and righteousness and TRUTH”
I have had many, many decades of literal experience, with a cross-section of people from a number of different denominations, and religious beliefs; AND some of the nicest, most gentle, soft spoken people, I ever met, were NOT believers in Christ; NOT Saved, did NOT have the indwelling presence of The Holy Spirit; YET, they *appeared* note, appeared to have some of the ‘fruit’ of the Spirit!
What was it that I observed in these nice, gentle, people? They denied Christ as the Only Saviour of mankind, and the Word of God, the Bible states emphatically, that:
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell IN YOU. NOW if any man have NOT the Spirit of Christ, he IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9)
Some unsaved people are genuinely nice, gentle folks; but, this does NOT mean it IS the ‘fruit’ of the Spirit of God. One can only have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, IF, once is in Christ Jesus; Justified, Saved, abiding in Him, and His truth, according to His Word, the Bible.
There are many, many, counterfeit spirits, (demons) out there, masquerading as the Holy Spirit, and they manifest this *counterfeit* fruit of the Spirit, mostly in false religions, and Cults, giving the false impression, that these people are of God, and Christ!
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, BUT try (test) the spirits whether they ARE OF GOD: because many false prophets are gone out into the world>” (1 John 4: 1)
Yes, the immdeiate context here, is dealing with those that deny that Jesus is come in the flesh; the Anti-Christ; but, the principle of deception IS the same in those who claim to believe in Christ, YET, the spirit of ERROR reigns in their erroneous theologies!
“We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that IS NOT of God heareth not us. Hereby know ye the spirit of TRUTH, and the spirit of ERROR.” (v. 6) emphasis added.
The ONLY criterion, the ONLY historic source, by which anyone, i.e., Preacher, Prophet, Pastor, etc, must be *tested* by, in what he/she teaches, preaches, and so on, IS, The Word of God, the Bible; the minute anyone, claims to have had ‘another’ so-called revelation, that CONTRADICTS the Sealed Canon of God’s Word, the Bible, IT must be rejected at once!
I am sorry for offending you, by being so straightforward, I KNOW spiritual deception, and how it is clothed IN what appears to be the ‘fruit’ of the Spirit, I WAS there, once, until, the Lord Jesus Christ, in His Grace, Mercy and Love, Saved me!
I can, therefore, do none other, so help me God, as Martin Luther said!
Well this is a welcome change in attitude coming from Zoe….I wonder what or who caused this…interesting.
We can all learn something from this.
zoe I have read through your response
(heavy). I agree with what you say re: bible but not necessarily the put-downs and assumptions re: my friend.
But isn’t the cross a symbol of christ’s death, not his life, (excluding any arguments about his resurrection)
@tech-man
Maybe Zoe has mellowed out with god’s
spirit or holy wine
@Technician // February 10, 2010 at 9:22 PM
Well this is a welcome change in attitude coming from Zoe….I wonder what or who caused this…interesting.
We can all learn something from this.
……………………………………………………
Techie,
What you seeing here is actual evidence of the marvellous workings of the Holy Spirit of God upon a man. I would like to think that he was “touched” by the Holy Spirit” but it seems that he might had had a “hard lash”. I did not think I would actually see the day when Zoe would sound so humble! He still got some ways to go though, like most if not all of us. He sounds like he is trying.