David
Thanks for elevating my comment to the status of a thread.

ROK opined at // February 25, 2009 at 6:44 pm

GP

One question you left out is why “Promises” and what is conditional upon those promises?

Rok I didnt think that I needed to address that question since there were so many presented. But perhaps you can offer an answer to that question.

Please note that “promises” here include warnings, prophecies or predictions and also the covenants, some of which are conditional as you suggest. The major conditional covenant is of course the one given at Sinai (i.e the law).

Perhaps I can give a general note on the covenants.

Here is my notes on the covenants.

Consideration and tracing of the Old Testament promises throughout the Bible reveals that the major Old Testament promises that are as yet unfulfilled, and many of those that are fulfilled, are associated with the eight major covenants which explain the outworking of God’s purposes with man.

The promises of the Covenants of God are thus a major focus that must be addressed in a serious study of the Bible. It is therefore necessary to state some principles about covenants.

The Covenants of God is a major plank in the study of the Bible because it is in these grand promises given to Israel that we ascertain the outline of God’s dealing with Israel (and man in general) throughout the ages.

Remember that God promised in Genesis that he would bless the world through Abraham and his seed (his people and ultimately Christ.)

According to C.I Scofield, “A covenant is a sovereign pronouncement of God by which he establishes a relationship

(1) between himself and an individual (e.g. Adam in the Edenic Covenant, Genesis 2:16ff.)
(2) between Himself and mankind in general (e.g. in the promise of the Noahic Covenant never again to destroy all flesh with a flood Genesis 9: 9 ff.) , (3) between Himself and a nation (e.g. Israel in the Mosaic Covenant, Exodus 19:3ff.), or
(4) between Himself and a specific human family (e.g. the house of David in the promise of a kingly line in perpetuity through the Davidic covenant, 2 Samuel 7: 16ff).

The following important principles about covenants must be firmly grasped. Biblical Covenants are either conditional or unconditional. The Mosaic Covenant or Sinaitic covenant or the Covenant of the Law, that God made in Exodus 19:5 is the only conditional Covenant in the Bible.

It was a conditional one, because the fulfillment of all the promises God made to Israel at this time were on the condition that they obeyed his voice and keep his covenant commandments, as implied by the words, “if ye will obey, then ye will be” followed by “all the people answering “All that the Lord hath spoken we will do (Exodus 19:5, 8).

The key wording in a conditional covenant is thus “If you will… Then I will”. The outcome of the promises contained in a conditional covenant is therefore based upon man’s faithfulness. “If you will do (such and such) then I will do (whatever I promised). This is clearly exemplified in Exodus19:5 ff., or Deuteronomy 28 especially verses 1 and 5 where this covenant is stated

All of the other covenants are unconditional, because in each of them, God Himself is responsible for keeping the terms of the covenant. They are “unconditional in the sense that God obligates himself in grace by the unrestricted declaration, “I will,” to accomplish certain announced purposes despite any failure on the part of the person or people with whom he covenants. The human response to the divinely announced purpose is always important, leading as it does to blessings for obedience and discipline for disobedience.”

It is noteworthy that the phrase “I will” occurs seven times in the wording of the Abrahamic Covenant, twelve times in the Palestinian Covenant, seven in the Davidic Covenant, and seven times in the Noahic Covenant. This clearly marks them as unconditional covenants. Consequently their fulfillment is not conditional on human faithfulness, but on God’s faithfulness.

“The three universal and general covenants are the Adamic, the Noahic and the Edenic in that the whole race is represented as present in Adam in his failure. All the other covenants are made with Israel or Israelites and apply primarily to them although with ultimate blessing to the whole world.”

When studying the great Covenants of the Bible, one must keep firmly fixed in mind that they were generally made directly to Israel, or men like Adam and Noah who existed before the formation of this nation. With the exception of the aspect of the New Covenant that affects the Church, they were not made to the members of the Body of Christ during this present age.

Ephesians 2:12-13 helps us to appreciate this. It reads hus “Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh; who are called Uncircumcision (Gentiles) by what is called the Circumcision (Jews) made in the flesh by hands; that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”

Another very important point to ponder when studying the covenants is to recognize their foundational importance in our understanding the Scriptures, and our comprehension of God’s agenda for the future.

Without a firm, intellectual grasp of the data supplied to us from studying the promises in the Covenants, we will drift aimlessly in our study of the Word and will get caught in the trap of “devotionalizing” the Old Testament to oblivion. Without the collective data of the covenants, any “theories” concerning Biblical Eschatology will be just that-theory.

But when the covenants are thoroughly studied, it will become clear that they lay the foundation for the Pre-millennial teaching, although they do not give any definitive information on the Rapture. That is a truth never really alluded to in the Old Testament, the translation of Enoch and Elijah being the exception.

This principle is also demonstrated by the fact that there is in the Abrahamic Covenant a threefold provision to the descendants of Abraham. God promised to Abraham (and to his physical posterity); Land, Seed (i.e. A great Nation of the world), and that through his seed, there will be a blessing to all the nations of the world.

Each of these three aspects of the Abrahamic Covenant are later amplified in the other three unconditional covenants. The Land promised in the context of the Abrahamic Covenant is amplified in the Palestinian Covenant. The “Seed” (i.e. great Nation) aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant is amplified in the Davidic Covenant, and lastly the “Blessing” aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant is amplified in the New Covenant.

As part of the Abrahamic covenant of Genesis 12:1 3, God had promised inter alia to make of Abraham a great nation. This was partially fulfilled under the terms of the Davidic covenant. History confirms that the nation was indeed a great nation as it reached its zenith under the rule of David and Solomon.

In the Palestinian covenant of Deuteronomy 30:1 9 the promise concerning the possession of the land of Israel given in the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 17:8) is stressed; here the conditions under which Israel entered the land of promise is at this point in time the most important thing God wants to get through to His people.

In the Davidic covenant of 2 Samuel 7:12 17, upon which the future kingdom of Christ was to be founded (Romans 1:3), the everlasting covenant term or condition of the Abrahamic covenant is stressed because the promise to David was to establish the kingdom (the great nation of the Abrahamic covenant—Israel was its zenith in the period of the monarchy) and to establish his house and kingdom forevermore.

Verification of the principles of the covenants are inevitable, since all the aspects of the principles depend on God’s immutability and ability to keep his promises. This is confirmed by Scripture passages such as Joshua 21:45 which reads “There failed nothing of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.” Similarly in Joshua 23:14b we read “and ye know in your hearts, and in your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spoke concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.” Again in 1 Kings 8:56 “Blessed be the Lord, who hath given rest unto his people, Israel, according to all that he promised; there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses, his servant.”

MANY people who study and believe the Bible are quite intelligent, and dont just blindly believe.
There were many great scientists who believed, and I dont think they can be said not to be capable of thinking.

It as you say … everybody must choose.

Most commentators believe that Jonah died in the whales belly and was resussitated. This seems to be the interpretation given by Jesus when he referred to Jonah as a type of himself.

At any rate, it is well documented that in fact that there is a record of a man having been swallowed by a great fish and to have lived the tale.

Let me look up the reference so you can check it for your self.

That was fine when we lived on a flat earth in the Middle Ages. But since then the world got to be round and we live in different times… nobody in these days can live in a whales belly for days, etc.

Thanks again David & thanks CH!
Rok I didn’t point you to Moses per se. That was more en passant. I agree that the Abrahamic Covenant is one of the major promises in the Word, and I have so noted in the comments above on covenants. It is difficult to fully understand the Word without appreciating the Abrahamic covenant. (I am not talking about salvation here now, I am talking about understanding the Word.) I have also noted the Edenic and Noahic covenants though not in great detail above.

I don’t think that we should compare the promises made by politicians with the promises of God for one moment. I believe, and this a thread that can also be followed through the Bible, that God wanted to fellowship with mankind. And so he created a whole world as a habitat for man- but man lost out on that paradise. In Revelation 21 we see that God gets his greatest wish.

GP

“God promised to Abraham (and to his physical posterity); Land, Seed (i.e. A great Nation of the world), and that through his seed, there will be a blessing to all the nations of the world.”

Now we cooking with gas. Land? He promised the Hebrews & Israelites some land? So am I to assume that the land promised was somebody else’s? Did God have spare land hidden some where?

Now don’t get me wrong, I am just trying to find out the nature of the promises and to whom were the promises made and why the promises were made.

It would seem to me that if all the land was God’s land, then what promises of land had to be made? Obviously, all the prime lands were already occupied by other races and nations.

What was so wrong with these other nations that without any motive they are invaded to secure lands for the Israelites. It would seem that God set a precedent for the Jews to follow which they seem to be doing to this day. However, nowadays it is about controlling the spoils of a country.

For example, Jews and banking; ownership of means of production in countries other than theirs; controlling trade in certain commodities, etc.

Don’t you think that the promises of special treatment means that the Jews are special and that therefore the jews have a right to feel special? That they are truly God’s “chosen people”?

When Christ said that you should forgive your brother 70 times seven, do you think he was referring to Jews forgiving Gentiles?

While we speak of anybody converting to Christ, do you believe that was a statement opened to all and sundry or just to the Jews? Are the promises in the Bible confined to the Jews? If not, where is the evidence?

GP

“MANY people who study and believe the Bible are quite intelligent, and dont just blindly believe.”

Now! Now! Now! GP. A long division sum that start out wrong can’t end up right. If you start with the wrong premises, brilliant or not, you will err. You shouls also state that these men start with certain assumptions.

Under the circumstances, brilliance does not matter and certainly cannot correct improper or incorrect assumptions.

Given that they start with certain assumptions, they do blindly believe.

@ Rok
1- Are the promises in the Bible confined to the Jews? NO
If not, where is the evidence? All over the NT you will find promises made to believers.
All through the OT you will find promises (warnings) predictions made against the nations.

Some folk sing a silly chorus in their churhes. EVERY PROMISE IN THE BOOK IS MINE, EVERY CHAPTER EVERY VERSE EVERY LINE! This is most unscriptural. Where the promises are to Israel, Moab, Syria etc they are usually stated, whether it is a blessing or a curse (a negative promise if you like.)..

2 When Christ said that you should forgive your brother 70 times seven, do you think he was referring to Jews forgiving Gentiles?
I don’t think so. I think this was part of his general teaching.

3-Don’t you think that the promises of special treatment means that the Jews are special and that therefore the jews have a right to feel special? That they are truly God’s “chosen people”?

That God chose the Jews as his “chosen people” is a fact from the Abrahamic covenant. But Paul (a Jew) makes it very clear in Romans 9-11 that the Jews were chosen for a special purpose. Adam had failed, resulting in his removal from the garden. His offspring failed resulting in the flood. The post deluvian civilization failed resulting in the banishment of the folk from the plains of Shinar and the confusion of tongues. So God started over with Abram and decided to have a people to do his biding. THEY FAILED TOO! But since God had made an unconditional promise or covenant with Abraham he has not cast them off completely as taught in Romans 9-11.

The covenant at Sinai prescribed blessings and curses to the Jew for obedience or disobedience. It promised two removals from their land for this disobedience- both fulfilled under the Babylonians and under the Romans.

4-“God promised to Abraham (and to his physical posterity); Land, Seed (i.e. A great Nation of the world), and that through his seed, there will be a blessing to all the nations of the world.” Genesis 12, and the other reiterations of the Abrahamic covenant in Genesis.

5- He promised the Hebrews & Israelites some land? So am I to assume that the land promised was somebody else’s? Did God have spare land hidden some where?
Obviously, all the prime lands were already occupied by other races and nations.

The answer to your question is found in Genesis 15:18-21
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

There was no spare land .Between the time of the banishment from Shinar and the Abrahamic covenant, the nations or peoples or tribes were occupying the land between the Nile & the Euphrates.

It is to be noted that they had to fight for this land, and that they never drove out all the peoples of these lands as ordered. They never actually occupied all the land that they were promised, even at their zenith under David & Solomon because of their disobedience.

Genesis 15:13 -16 is a prediction or promise concerning their stay in Egypt and its duration
15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land [that is] not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full.

6- It would seem to me that if all the land was God’s land, then what promises of land had to be made?

This would be no different than if you had several plots of land and you promised them to your children, whether conditionally or unconditionally. I cant see why God cant have the same privilege.

7- What was so wrong with these other nations that without any motive they are invaded to secure lands for the Israelites?
Genesis 15:16 seems to indicate that God gave them over 400 years to repent of their sins just as he gave the people of the antediluvian age 120 years while the ark was being built as taught in 1 Peter.

8-. It would seem that God set a precedent for the Jews to follow which they seem to be doing to this day.

I don’t think that this set a precedent

9-. However, nowadays it is about controlling the spoils of a country For example, Jews and banking; ownership of means of production in countries other than theirs; controlling trade in certain commodities, etc.

After the Jews were displaced from their lands it would seem that some of them suffered in some places as in the holocaust in Germany, and that God blessed them in their trading and banking activities. It is not for me to say why.

Even in Bim they have some fellas that aint no smarter than you and I in certain positions. We get on with our lives. I don’t worry about the Jews, God promises to bless those who bless them and curse those who curse them.

I try to keep it simple.

Hope these are reasonable answers to your questions.

GP

“that God wanted to fellowship with mankind. And so he created a whole world as a habitat for man- but man lost out on that paradise. In Revelation 21 we see that God gets his greatest wish.”

I put it to you that the Bible is God’s dialogue with the Jews. You cannot deny that.

If it was true that he created an environment for man, why were the other races left out of the conversation and why were other races to be invaded to provide a promise land for the Jews.

Any reference to man in the Bible is reference to the Hebrews and Israelites and not to any of the other races. Is that not why the Jews and the Talmud was attacked, even in the times of Christ?

When the Jews were called upon to explain their religion, their practices and teachings were deemed to be unethical in the first instance and then subsequently, the Bible (Talmud) of the Jews was suppressed for centuries and the Jews mocked.

I refuse to believe that the Jews were mocked because all the other races and religious sects were wicked. Show me the proof? I would posit that it was the other way around and that what we are adopting as our own, we have thoroughly misunderstood to mean us when in fact it is a conversation with the Jews.

I would also posit that the Talmud was more important to the Jews than the OT and that giving away the misunderstood OT (Bible) relieved their pressure although not ended it, because we turned around and accused them of killing Christ.

Now this is the point about the Bible. Because it was a Jewish thing and a dialogue with and about the Jews, the only people that could be blamed for Christ’s death is the Jews. Otherwise why would this charge be laid and why would the Jews (Israelis) accept that the blame for any harm to Christ would have had to have been done by the Jews.

Rok
On Jonah & the Whale

I try to keep things simple. The word says that that the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. I believe that that is what it means. Jesus obviously thought so too, from the two references he made to this text.

It is noteworthy that in the book of Jonah that besides the great fish that God also prepared a worm, a gourd and an east wind- all of which obeyed Him. Only Jonah disobeyed.

I suggest you look up the Hebrew for “prepared”. God summoned a fish to do a specific task is a simpler and more reasonable interpretation than flying chariots and submarines. Why must you go off on these tangents?

As McGee used to say the fish is an incidental not an essential. The issue is not about Jonah in the fish’s belly. The importance of this incident is what Jesus said about it. That’s what ALL the other Bible teachers teach. And frankly Rok, with all due respect I prefer their teachings to yours!

Some good Bible scholars believe that Jonah actually died when he was thrown into the stormy sea, and that Jonah’s disobedience cost him both his money and his life Some of them have argued that the death of Jonah was necessary if he were to typify Christ who was to die and be in the grave three days and three nights. Such scholars believe that the Lord would not have used this incident as a type of his death and resurrection, unless Jonah had actually died.

However Epp opines thus:- “To me it is not too clear that Jonah died, but we need not press that point either one way or the other. What we must not overlook is that there were several other men in the Old Testament who were types of Christ, none of whom died during the incident that is pointed to as their picturing Christ’s death. Joseph was a type of Christ, but he did not die in the pit into which his brothers thrust him prior to their selling him as a slave. Isaac, the grandfather of Joseph, was also a type of Christ when he was offered by Abraham on Mount Moriah, but Isaac did not die during that experience. These, however, are not important matters now, the big thing is to remember that when God speaks the mountains tremble. When God takes matters into His own hands things begin to happen.”

What matters most is that Jonah was in the fish three days and three nights, and that this was a miracle not only for his benefit , but for ours as well. The importance of the statement that Jonah was in the fish three days and three nights is an oriental way of expressing the fact that he was in the fish so long that apart from God’s sustaining power he was dead and beyond the possibility of human resuscitation, as was the case recorded in John 11:17, and was intended, to portray Jonah’s preservation from death, or return to life as supernatural. This miracle was designed to teach us the doctrine of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ ( Matt 12:40). This is the main lesson to grasp in Jonah chapter one.

This incident is used by the Lord himself who, in citing it, verifies the truth of the narrative. Our Saviour declared that the only sign He was going to give the people of His day was the sign of Jonah. Just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so the Lord from glory would be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. Those who smile over the story of “Jonah and the whale” would do well to remember not only that our Lord Himself referred to it, but in what connection. He used it as a most solemn sign regarding the most solemn event of His life on earth. And He has expressly told us that in the great Judgment Day the men of Nineveh shall rise up and condemn the men of this generation, because they repeated at the preaching of Jonah, and behold a Greater than Jonah is here. We cannot imagine our Lord using these solemn words of a fictitious people and of a fictitious repentance.

To us who believe in the greatest miracle of all-the incarnation and resurrection of Christ-it is but a little thing to believe that God saved Jonah in this way to be a type of our Saviour’s resurrection. We have no alternative to believing Christ’s word that He did do so. There are certainly some of the many simple, but important lessons to be gleaned from this great, even though controversial chapter of the Bible.

GP

“It is noteworthy that in the book of Jonah that besides the great fish that God also prepared a worm, a gourd and an east wind- all of which obeyed Him. Only Jonah disobeyed.”

Well, we also saw the thing that went before the Israelites (a cloud by day and a pillar fo fire by night) parted the Red Sea. We also saw how Pharoah disobeyed God too and how God used the environment to kill the Egyptians that pursued the Israelites through the sea bed.

So we know that God has a way to manipulate the elements but as to creatures, where is there comparable evidence?

I could turn on a fan or turbojet and get a wind. Think about the force described in the landing on Mt. Sinai. The chgariots of the Gods were alawys covered with cloud. We know what clouds are (can be) made of.

Rok
“that God wanted to fellowship with mankind. And so he created a whole world as a habitat for man- but man lost out on that paradise. In Revelation 21 we see that God gets his greatest wish.”

Before there were Jews they were Adam & Eve & Noah & Enoch etc who were not Jews.
At the time of the Jews greatest importance they were other nations, just as they are today. Even in the Hebrew prophets we read of God’s blessings to the Jews.

I do not see the Bible as God’s dialogue with the Jews. Paul makes this very clear in his epistles. He talks about Jews, Gentiles (unconverted Jews) and the Church (both converted Jews and Gentiles.)

Re
If it was true that he created an environment for man, why were the other races left out of the conversation and why were other races to be invaded to provide a promise land for the Jews?

Ask God that when you see him. It is not an important issue in the message of salvation, or the unifying phrase of the Bible I WILL BE WITH YOU. The Bible is a CHRISTOCENTRIC BOOK not a book about the Jews. Jesus taught this in John 5 and in Luke 24 in his discourse to the chaps on the road to Emmaus.

Re .
Any reference to man in the Bible is reference to the Hebrews and Israelites and not to any of the other races.

Read the Scriptures thoroughly and you will find that this is not so.

Re Is that not why the Jews and the Talmud was attacked, even in the times of Christ?

In Christ’s day Judea was controlled by the Romans as predicted (promised) in Daniel. The Jews have been attacked because they disobeyed the warnings of the covenant at Sinai. Everything is there spelled out including the two dispersals from their land.

NO one has said here that the Jews were mocked because all the other races and religious sects were wicked. Genesis 15 indicates that the Caananites would be displaced for their sin.

Rok I don’t deal too much with ramblings about what folk say about the Jews or extraneous info. I deal with what the Word states. I try to find out what the Hebrew or Greek says. I sift the teachings of men renowned for teaching the Word and come to conclusions about what makes sense. When I read these fellas work I find that they do the same.

Re Now this is the point about the Bible. Because it was a Jewish thing and a dialogue with and about the Jews, the only people that could be blamed for Christ’s death is the Jews. Otherwise why would this charge be laid and why would the Jews (Israelis) accept that the blame for any harm to Christ would have had to have been done by the Jews.

The Bible teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD or the WHOLE WORLD OF SINS in some translations.

The Bible teaches that a sacrifice had to be made for sin as far back as Genesis 3:15 BEFORE THE TIME OF THE JEWS.

You put too much emphasis on the Jews. Put the emphasis where it lies ON CHRIST!

GP

“God summoned a fish to do a specific task is a simpler and more reasonable interpretation than flying chariots and submarines. Why must you go off on these tangents?”

You see, I think it is you who have gone off on a tangent. That is why I am telling you that the “so-called” scholarly interpretation of the Bible is flawed because it starts with assumptions, the same as I have.

You start with the assumption of this fairy tale God while I start from the assumption that this God of the Bible is not God at all but a race of people who have a more advanced technology and have conquered many of the things that our science have not been able to conquer up to today.

Now you cannot tell me that my interpretation is worng. The most you can say is that it is different. Furthermore, to start with an assumption of a fairy tale God is nothing more than blind faith. It certainly does not make sense, but that is because we are still in the technological stone age; obviously.

@Georgie Porgie
GP, I real glad that you post this item – especially immediately after Robin Hood offered his analysis in the longggg thread.

You have just demonstrated perfectly why religion is so confusing.

How many people do you think understand or even bothered to try to follow your big long dissertation?

That sounds like a HC thing where a bunch of conceited bright boys get together to show off how many big words they can string together…. Fortunately, we know that you are not the typical product of that other place…

Man what bible study guide what!?!

I tell you already that the only guide needed to understand the bible is free for the asking, and that without that necessary guide, you could write the best flowing prose and it will be just so much nonsense.

All that believers are asked to do- is to preach the gospel, and to live a life which bears witness of the fruits of the holy spirit.

Obviously, there is no problem with HC types like you, MME and CH enjoying wanna selves…. but do not give the impression to others that this is the means to understanding any bible..

@ Robin Hood
Right on my brother. the ONLY reason that life exists as we know it, is for the process of the procreation of God.

While millions upon millions of humans are unaware, unconcerned, unprepared and unbelieving of this reality, those that do and endure to the end WILL BE BORN SPIRITUALLY INTO THE REALM OF GOD, AS SONS OF GOD. And each and every one born then, will be welcomed with great joy in that family.

No need for any complex study techniques to preach that good news(gospel) to everyone who cares to listen…

BT

I do not discuss RELIGION

I discuss the BIBLE.

Re How many people do you think understand or even bothered to try to follow your big long dissertation?

We are supposed to be Bajans who went to school.
Last I checked ex students of all schools are running Barbados today- not only the ex Harrisonians.

I have never met fellas at HC who were conceited and got together to show off how many big words they can string together. We played familiar Bajan games, and were like other Bajan boys.

You have your way of studying the Bible. I have mine. I like and follow the ideas of Luther. Have a survey method. Do book studies. Chapter studies. Word studies etc. I tend to share what I learned in the hope that others might benefit therefrom as taught in 2 Tim 2:2.

The things I learned from here and there has made studying the Bible easy for me, and has aided retention and analysis.

I agree with you that believers are asked to preach the gospel, and to live a life which bears witness of the fruits of the holy spirit. However, there are others who have sought to obey 2 Tim 2:15 and 1 Peter 3:15 also and have written extensively on the Word.

My writings above are not a means to understanding but the manna glean by studying the Bible. I have been accepted and respected wherever I have taught the Word.

@ Rok

Re
“I particularly stated clearly that they are promises for the Jews, promises for specific nations, and promises for the Church and believers.”You got me lost here.

I know that Rok. I know that.

To which nations were promises made? READ THE PROPHETS.

To which Church were promises made?
To which believers were promises made? THE CHURCH ARE THOSE WHO FOLLOW CHRIST. SO ARE BELIEVERS. PAUL ALSO REFERS TO THEM AS SAINTS.

Its all over the NT in the epistles Rok. Its no mystery.

You are al over the place in your understanding of Romans 9-11, but that is understandable. Most folk will tell you that Romans is difficult. It takes time to study and understand the Word Rok. Just like it takes time to study most things.

I heard a youngster just this Sunday do a good job with Romans 9.

How could promises be made to other nations when it was a dialogue with the Jews?

Yes Rok I teach foolishness. But foolishness is exactly what the teaching of the Word is called. Paul said so in 1 Corinthians 1, and he was right!

CH
I started out by examining the promises in the shortest books in the OT and working to the longest.

As I went on I submitted what I wrote for correction. The men said since the men in NA usually turned thier dissertation into a book, my submissions would be too long, by the time I had finished all 39 O& books. So I confined my final work to Genesis.

There are not a great deal of promises in Genesis, but the ones there are very important. I also tackled a few controversial areas like are the angels that sinned in Jude the nephilim that copulated with the “sons of God” to produce “giants” in chapter 6.

If you send me an email address I can send it to you online.

@GP… Thanks. Look forward to reading…

One of my e-mail addresses (as on my Contact Page) at my Blog is…

ideasblog at ideas 4 lease dot com

(Change two words to appropriate symbols. Remove all spaces.)

Everything sent to this address will be treated as confidential, unless explicitly otherwise stated.

@GP
Forgive me! but the lotta long talk REALLY is a big turn off.
What people want are simple answers to critical questions. How is it helpful to launch into complex concepts and dissertations instead?

When we were discussing “What is the purpose of our existence?” I was hoping for a clear simple answer from you – …
Now we are on to the promises of God and poor Bush Tea can’t even get your posts read – longer and more complex even than Carlos and PDC – and still no simple answers..

Robin Hood and Bush Tea have put forward claims that the major promise made by God happens to be the GOSPEL – that mere humans CAN BECOME sons of God – i.e. can become GOD!!! Just like Jesus did.

Now!
Can you say if this is accurate or incorrect – and what is the actual promise made -and preached by Jesus?

I would like to draw readers attention to what I mean about God of the Bible.

First, this I consider to be the most shameful verse in the Bible, but moreso, this is an example of the inconsistencies in the Bible. Should add that some versions have this verse as as three words, “And God Repent”:

“Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.”

This comes after Moses actually “rebuked” God for wanting to kill the Hebrews after perceiving that they were worshipping the Golden Calf.

This next verse speaks for itself and is in complete contradiction to how God behaved previously in Exodus. This however is being said by a man but see how warped the logic is, because God did repent. Worse is the evidence being brought forward by the speaker in support of the “logic”:

“Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? “

@ROK

A word of caution when quoting from the Bible………….. One ought to remember that the “Bible” as we know it was only from the times of James 1 of England. Before the English translation the writings had come through several other translations. The question is ……. after going through all these different translations how much of the English was eventually translated correctly when compared with the original documents?

Moses & God

Now when Moses was on the Mount and God had perceived the Golden Calf and said:
Exodus
32:09 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

We all talk about being saved if you are righteous. We firmly believe that if you live as a Christian among all theives that the thieves will be struck down and not you. That is why you live righteously.

We believe that God is just but in the above case, it did not matter to God who was righteous; all were going. His salvation was to obliterate them and make Moses’ seed into a great nation.

@ROK
“I am disturbed.”

Very glad to hear you say that, ROK, because that is exactly what the fullness of truth is really supposed to do.

Prick you to the very core! That’s what it’s to do!!

As they say, if you can’t take the heat, stay away from the kitchen.

…………….or go live in Alaska! :-))

@ ROK

You would, huh? I would think that this version makes a lot more sense in the particular context in which it is written

According to your version which says…………””the Lord repented””.

What utter nonsense, this is GOD we are speaking about here, not some member of the ungodly human species. ”” The Lord repented””……. What in heaven’s sake would GOD ever have to repent about?