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WTC North Tower Collapse, New Discover(?)

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Video of WTC North Tower Collapse

BU family member Green Monkey has been a persistent voice propagating the conspiracy theory surrounding the collapse of the World Trade Centre. It was in October 2008 when another BU family member Micro Mock Engineer (MME) and friends decided to make a stand and duke it out with the monkey.

To this point the BU household, by a simple majority believes that MME et al has done enough to debunk Green Monkey’s theories. Despite the onslaught from those oppose in the BU family GG has rebounded by exhibiting the trait of a worthy adversary-persistence!

GG has produced a 5 minute video (only) with commentary and analysis by a member of Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth to resurrect his conspiracy argument. We have not seen MME around recently maybe this latest discovery by GG will prod MME out of hibernation.

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66 responses to “WTC North Tower Collapse, New Discover(?)”

  1. Genaral Lee Avatar
    Genaral Lee

    David, is this the right video or am I missing something, where is the collapse?

    Thanks GL!

  2. Green Monkey Avatar
    Green Monkey

    Here’s another video, this one on “WTC 7: NIST admits freefall.”

    (NIST= National Institute of Standards and Technology. They were charged with preparing a report on the WTC Building 7 collapse – the third building to collapse straight down at close to free fall speeds on 9/11)

  3. Green Monkey Avatar
    Green Monkey

    Here’s another video, this one on “WTC 7: NIST admits freefall.”

    (NIST= National Institute of Standards and Technology. They were charged with preparing a report on the WTC Building 7 collapse – the third building to collapse straight down at close to free fall speeds on 9/11.

  4. Green Monkey Avatar
    Green Monkey

    Oops sorry for the double post. The above video on WTC 7 is actually part 3 of a 3 part series.

    Here is part 1.

    Here is part 2.

  5. twwifos Avatar
    twwifos

    When I first read this, I thought you guys were just drinking too much rum. However, after looking around youtube there is lots of strong evidence for the “controlled demolition” theory, especially with building seven. Hopefully one day we will have a “real” investigation in to what happened on that dark day.

    All the more reason why January 20th can not come soon enough for me.

  6. David Avatar
    David

    So when will this conspiracy theory be cracked open Green monkey?

    The better question is what has to happen to crack it?

  7. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    So David, if those people could dispose of JFK, MLK, and Lord knows who else; start wars around the globe at their whim and fancy; and gerrymander every major institution…. why are you surprised that they would stage a 911? the goal was quite obvious.

    This thing was suspect from the very start. What man in a cave in Afghanistan what? He is just about as guilty as Lee Harvey Oswald.

    …the biggest joke however is the third building that collapsed that day….. nothing hit it ….LOL.

  8. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    I am trying not to even bring it up ……….BUT………..does anyone see what is happening in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?

    Oh how I miss Gladstone Holder.

  9. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Happy New Year David and BU.

    I haven’t been in hibernation… more like preparing for hibernation during the economic ‘winter’ ahead LOL

    I never casually dismiss conspiracy theories, but this one just doesn’t stack up. Logical and less complicated explanations for everything portrayed in the video have already been provided by several credible sources, ranging from engineering institutions (both inside and outside the US) to demolition experts. There will always be varying opinions and theories, even among qualified professionals. In my experience, whenever presented with competing theories or explanations describing a situation, always trust the one that relies on the fewest assumptions to describe what is observed… lex parsimoniae.

    This one was as it appeared, a brutal and senseless attack planned and orchestrated by religious extremists. An inexcusable attack, but one precipitated by years of irresponsible US foreign policy that has enflamed hatred among a large proportion of the world’s population. An attack that showed up just how inefficient and uncoordinated US intelligence agencies were.

    @BT: The south face of Building 7 was extensively damaged by falling perimeter columns from the WTC north tower. The firefighters who were assigned to building 7 reported a hole in the south side of around 20 stories in height or approximately a third of the building (although the official NIST report claims it was only 10 stories in height) with fires burning on several floors for close to 6 hours prior to the collapse. Here BT… this may be of help:
    http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc_videos/wtc_videos.html

  10. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @MME
    All best wishes for 2009.
    I like simple too…..so…
    Name one other steel building anywhere – that collapsed in ANY way as a result of fire -either before of after those THREE did on 911.
    …and not only did they collapse, but fell neatly onto their own footprints…

    You are aware that building 7 was a CIA office and also housed the Mayor’s emergency command center? read that to be ‘not your cheap second rate building….’

  11. David Avatar
    David

    @Technician
     
     
    Here is pull! push! owned by blogger Amit. He has pull together quite a bit of info on the Gaza invasion. Yes we said invasion!
     

  12. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    LOL BT, did you notice the two 747’s that slammed into the north and south towers prior to their collapse? Can you name another steel building anywhere that this has happened before or since? As for falling in their footprints, this didn’t happen as neatly as it would have in a controlled demolition (as evidenced by the extensive damage to surrounding buildings, most notably building 7) but you are right for the most part.
    But tell me, where did you expect the buildings to fall? It would have been impossible for them to fall any differently, because, as I have pointed out previously, the amount of ‘tilt’ was restricted by the yield stress in the lower ‘pivot’ floors.

    Building 7 housed some CIA offices and the NY office of emergency management? LOL… thanks for introducing this piece of ‘evidence’, but could you explain its relevance?

  13. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    …oops, that should have been 767’s

  14. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    Thanks David …

    Happy New Year to all.

  15. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @MME
    The buildings did not fall as a result of the aircraft impact. They were designed to deal with such lateral forces. Fire was blamed.

    The fact that building 7 was a secure city facility indicates that it was likely to have been a well engineered structure (unlikely to fail due to poor engineering)

    Even when you listen to the explanation from your video, the actual collapse does NOT support the type of failure that he suggests. (with the outer supports collapsing AFTER the internal floors fell. (they all came down together.)

    Finally – you may recall the Timothy McVeigh incident in Oklahoma- when the whole face of that building was blown away by a truck bomb. The internal floors collapsed – Did the building react in ANY way like WT7?

    …come on MME, work with me…. LOL

  16. Green Monkey Avatar
    Green Monkey

    On the extent of the South face damage at WTC 7 see:
    http://www.wtc7.net/damageclaims.html

    Admittedly there was some minor damage, but if that was the cause of the collapse, the building should have tilted towards that damage as it went down instead of remaining vertical. Also the undamaged portions that remained should have provided resistance to the fall slowing down the collapse speed from freefall.

    Here is some material on the damage to the South face of WTC 7:

    Watch different views of the collapse of WTC 7 here:

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/wtc7.html

    From link above at WRH:

    Take a close look at the manner in which WTC 7 collapses straight down. For the building to collapse in this fashion, all of the load bearing supports would have had to fail at exactly the same time.

    The claim that the collapse was the result of a fire requires the fire be equally distributed throughout the entire floor of the building, providing equal heat for an equal amount of time, so that all the load bearings members would fail at the exact same moment.

    Do you find this plausible?

    See how a high school physics teacher used a commonly available high school physics software program to measure the collapse speed of WTC 7 and challenge the NIST investigation team’s erroneous initial claim that the building did NOT fall at freefall speed.

    Finally note that according to Part 3 of the AE911truth.org videos on the WTC 7 collapse posted in this thread above, NIST is refusing to release the data and assumptions used in creating the computer model they came up with to explain WTC 7’s collapse.

    In view of the fact that this was one of the first metal framed building in history to collapse completely due to fire, it means that their investigation has wide implications for design and construction practices in new buildings and fire protection measures in older buildings to ensure fire doesn’t bring down another building. Shouldn’t all construction engineers, architects, academics etc. have access to the data NIST used in their computer modelling so the results can be independently verified?

    Remember a high schools physics teacher (and member of AE 911 Truth) had to show them their initial claim on the rate of fall of building 7 not being at freefall was erroneous. And we are supposed to trust them to do a complex computer modeling operation without expert, independent verification? Yeah right.

    People don’t pay too much attention to MME. (By his own admission it appears he is a “tiny, fake engineer.” ) Instead, pay attention to the professional architects and engineers at AE911truth.org putting their reputations and in some cases probably careers on line to say the official explanations for the destruction of the 3 WTC buildings on 9/11 just does not explain all the observed features of the buildings’ destruction.

    Apparently even the FBI has acknowledged the competence of the work carried out by Richard Gage and fellow members of the AE 911 Truth.

    Here is a snip from a letter from the FBI’s Michael J. Heimbach, Assistant Director, Counterterrorism Division acknowledging a request from a US citizen that the work of AE 911 Truth be considered by the FBI in an apparently still ongoing investigation into 9/11.

    “Mr. Gage presents an interesting theory, backed by thorough research and analysis.” (my emphasis /GM)

    You can view the full letter from the FBI here:

    http://www.gators911truth.org/PDF/FBI-Response.pdf

    Quick MME, write the folks at the FBI and explain to them how they are wrong about the work of Richard Gage. I am sure they will be relieved if they could discount his evidence right off the bat as you are prepared to do.

    From the home page at http://ae911truth.org on the twin towers’ destruction:

    As seen in this revealing photo, the Twin Towers’ destruction exhibited all the characteristics of destruction by explosions: (and some non-standard characteristics)

    1. Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration

    2. Unnatural symmetry of debris distribution

    3. Extremely rapid onset of destruction

    4. Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes

    5. Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally 600 ft at 60 mph

    6. Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking

    7. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds

    8. 1200-foot-dia. debris field: no “pancaked” floors found

    9. Isolated explosive ejections 20-40 stories below demolition front

    10. Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame

    11. Several tons of molten iron found under all 3 high-rises

    12. Evidence of thermite incendiaries found in steel & dust samples

    13. FEMA steel analysis: sulfidation, oxidation & intergranular melting

    14. No precedent for steel-framed high-rise collapse due to fire

    Go to original at http://ae911truth.org for embedded links in above.

    I like this quote from US newspaper columnist Sydney Schanberg that appears in an article about the Gulf of Tonkin fakery used by the US to get public support for the US military ‘s full blown involvement in the Vietnam conflict.

    Sydney Schanberg: “We Americans are the ultimate innocents. We are forever desperate to believe that this time the government is telling us the truth.”

    http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2261

  17. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Happy New Year to all and so on.

    If memory serves, the only thing MME brought out is the fact that it was an awfully quiet collapse which suggests that there were no explosives, at least the type that most of us would be familiar. That’s it… that’s all.

    He did not or could not prove that the heat generated from the exploding planes, the burning contents of the building and jet fuel was responsible for the collapse and he sure as hell did not or could not prove that 9-11 was “a brutal and senseless attack planned and orchestrated by religious extremists”.

    Again the answer lies in oppurtunity, motive and where withal. Follow the bucks… Simple enough!

  18. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @BAFBFP
    How are you doing Banned? any plans for better behaviour in 2009 from you?
    I hope not…. LOL

    What quiet what?
    Witnesses reported a massive shock wave which blew out all the windows prior to the collapse. After the events of the previous 8 hours it may not have seem very significant….

    Perhaps MME also has an explanation for why both CNN and BBC would have reported the collapse of this building well BEFORE it actually fell.

    …and MME, it has to be better than your attempt at how come this is the only steel skyscraper in HISTORY to have collapsed totally from fire.

    while you are at it, maybe you can also explain why the investigators who made your video were NOT allowed to visit the site. Why the scrap was hauled off and recycled with record speed ….and what the owner of the building meant when he gave instructions to ‘pull it…’ just before the collapse.

    …take your time MME. I have more confidence in your being able to explain this than anyone that I have heard before… and Bush Tea have heard them all…

  19. Green Monkey Avatar
    Green Monkey

    If memory serves, the only thing MME brought out is the fact that it was an awfully quiet collapse which suggests that there were no explosives, at least the type that most of us would be familiar. That’s it… that’s all.

    Check this video from NY on the morning of 9/11 that has recently surfaced on the internet and listen between about the 6:18 and 6:35 mark. I am sure sceptics will say that was jut the natural noise of the building collapsing but it sure sounds like a massive explosion to me right at 6:19. Warning, some could find the video disturbing as it shows distant shots of victims jumping from the tower. There is also some swearing.

    Also check out this article (see below) on the explosive like discharges seen coming out the sides of the towers after the initiation of the collapse. Initially written off as dust laden air bursting through the windows as it was compressed by falling floors (then they apparently abandoned the pancaking floors theory) . The paper explains how this cannot be the case.

    The author is Kevin Ryan.

    Kevin Ryan is former Site Manager for Environmental Health Laboratories, a division of Underwriters Laboratories (UL). Mr. Ryan, a Chemist and laboratory manager, was fired by UL in 2004 for publicly questioning the report being drafted by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) on their World Trade Center investigation. In the intervening period, Ryan has completed additional research while his original questions, which have become increasingly important over time, remain unanswered by UL or NIST.

    Through interviews, presentations, and his work as co-editor at the online Journal of 911 Studies, Mr. Ryan works to bring out the truth behind the events of 9/11/01 for the benefit of all people.

    http://www.ultruth.com/Kevin_Ryan.htm

    High Velocity Bursts of Debris From Point-Like Sources in the
    WTC Towers
    Kevin Ryan, 6/13/2007

    SNIP

    There is a great deal of compelling evidence for the demolition hypothesis, including the following physical facts about the destruction of each building.

    • Sudden onset of failure
    • Near free-fall speed of “collapse”
    • Symmetrical “collapse”
    • Many eyewitness testimonies to explosions and flashes of light
    • Small rubble piles (WTC 7 fell into its own footprint)
    • Molten metal in the rubble piles and pouring from WTC 2
    • Dust clouds resembling pyroclastic flows from volcanoes
    • Sulfidation and intergranular melting of the steel

    Currently, the only official explanation given for these devastating events is a provably false “collapse initiation sequence” for two of the three buildings, provided by the
    National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST).[2] By failing to explain the actual collapse dynamics, NIST was able to avoid all of the evidence cited above. Additionally, they were able to avoid considerable circumstantial evidence in favor of the
    demolition hypothesis (e.g. evidence destroyed or withheld, extensive foreknowledge).

    http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2007/Ryan_HVBD.pdf

    David, I submitted a post about 15/20 minutes ago (ie. approx 9:15) , but did not get the usual “held for moderation”, comment and it did not show up in the thread. Can you just check to make sure it gets posted. Thanks

  20. Green Monkey Avatar
    Green Monkey

    I have 2 posts waiting for the moderator. This link below is the link to a video I mentioned in my second post but I forgot to include the link in the post. It is shot in NY on 9/11 and appeared recently on the internet.
    .

    (Listen at the 6:18 – 6:30) mark
    http://www.garagetv.be/video-galerij/bartvanbelle/unseen_footage_9_11.aspx?utm_source=GTVPlayer-&utm_medium=LopendFilmpjeExtern

  21. Juris Avatar
    Juris

    Would anyone care to tell me why the US would want to destoy so many of its citizens and prime property top implicate OBL? Might not the destruction of another building with fewer people suffice? Oh. I know, too simple an explanation? Incidentally, has responsibility been denied by OBL?

  22. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Happy LOL to you too Bushman yah wise ol’ Rooster.

    Monks I ain’ hear nah noise other than sirens and cussing. The exploding windows again could very well be escaping gas. Still can’ say for sure what cause the collapse and it don’ matter. The rats behind it are not Arab and you can take that to the bank.

  23. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Juris.

    OBL denied involvement within two days of the event. Of course any information coming from that side of the world to reach your ears would have been at the least censored and at most fabricated.

    And I agree. I would have chosen the statue of Liberty; far less casualties and so on. But then the negative impact would not have been as dramatic.

  24. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @Juris

    You plan to attack and occupy the very cradle of civilization; to take control of massive oil resources in a Moslem region; send messages to the rest of the world of who is boss …..make billions in profit for your own private company…. and you count the WTC and a few thousand casualties as a price too high?!?

    …stick to law- Juris….
    …and I bet you black. you beginning to sound like BWWR

  25. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Wha Loss! I like I got my work cut out fuh me in 2009… LOL.

    I deal wid virtually all dem questions already, so at the risk of repeating my self I will just try to focus on the deliberate attempts to distort the facts.

    BT… try to stay wid me… how de fire dat was blamed start? LOL… Could it have had something to do with the planes flying into the building first. Stop building straw men… I never said that the lateral forces from the planes crashing into the buildings brought them down… not once! It was the structual damage and ensuing fire caused by the planes. But as you have raised it, and as a matter of FACT easily verifiable by a search on Google… the twin towers were NOT designed to sustain an impact from a plane as large as a 767… again, I am not saying that the lateral forces from the planes brought them down, just correcting that piece of misinformation you provided.

    I also NEVER said that building 7 collapsed as a result of “poor engineering”… in fact I am amazed that it stood up so long… again, watch that link I provided three posts ago, as it describes the mechanics of the building 7 collapse extremely well… just spend half the time you spend searching for conspiracies and mysterious motives, reviewing the information in the link I provided 3 posts ago… trust me, you won’t regret it.

    You asked; ““Name one other steel building anywhere – that collapsed in ANY way as a result of fire -either before of after those THREE did on 911.”
    I realise that I answered this earlier request with a request of my own. That wasn’t entirely fair, so, as requested, here are just a few examples of other steel structures that have collapsed “in ANY way” as a result of fire:
    — McCormick Convention Centre, Chicago, 1967
    — Sight & Sound Theater, Pennsylvania, 1997
    — Windsor building, Madrid, 2005. Only the top 11 floors of the building had an outer steel frame structure (all other floors and the building core were of reinforced concrete). The steel frame structure of the top 11 floors completely collapsed from fire alone under less than 3 hours. Ironically, conspiracy theorists attempt to compare the Windsor building fire to that of the WTC buildings, not realizing that only the top 11 floors (excluding the reinforced concrete core) are suitable for comparison.
    Some may argue that these are not skyscraper examples, but I’d be surprised if you can find any examples where:
    (1) a steel-framed skyscraper, tube-in-tube design as opposed to web designs or reinforced concrete designs (i.e. steel WITHOUT concrete where the steel walls are held in place by trusses which are in turn fastened to perimeter steel columns – in this case using 5/8” bolts); that has
    (2) sustained major structural damage by either large aircraft or parts of adjacent buildings crashing into them; and
    (3) is further structurally weakened by uncontrolled fires (… in the case of building 7 burning for around 6 hours).
    I would be equally surprised, if in any examples you find matching the above criteria, the buildings do not collapse.

    @BAFBFP: No, your memory doesn’t serve you correct, as I never said the collapse was quiet. It was however measured and the noise levels verified as not being consistent with the “explosives” theory… again this is very easily verifiable.

  26. Juris Avatar
    Juris

    Yes, BT, I do have the (mis)fortune to be black. So on your analysis we can surmise that the US failed spectacularly in its missions.

  27. Afraid of the police Avatar
    Afraid of the police

    After wunnuh prove or disprove that the US did behind 9-11 all along what yuh gwine do (other than renew yuh visa)?

    A chubby old friend of mine once said

    “What kind of mirror image can you have of yourself?

    Let me tell you what I mean by ‘image you have of yourself’. You so much despair of this society that you queue up at Trident House (United States Consulate) day after day.”

  28. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    MME:

    I’ve checked your selected videos, and yes after a severe fire the roof along with roof trusses did fail in both the theatre and the convention centre, however I did note that the vertical columns survived intact.

    As for Windsor you have a good case the exterior steel framing did fail during that 26-hour inferno.

    My question to you, and any other engineer you care to cite, is how come all 47 massive core columns in both WTC 1&2 failed below the impact zone, and were therefore unaffected by fire?

    It cannot have been the weight, as they would have always carried that weight, in fact were designed to carry far in excess.

    It defies Newtonian laws.

    FEMA’s report describes a scenario leading up to the failure but handily ignores my question with an airy “then collapse ensued”

  29. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @Juris

    I think that you are fortunate…. never mind that you will live a much poorer life that you otherwise might. LOL

    They certainly failed in most ways… the Iraqis were supposed to welcome them as ‘gods’… like we would have…

    …it would have been grand…..

    Instead, they met the mother of all battles. They failings have been exposed (like the BLP last year, they miss read the impact of the www on bypassing their controlled news channels)

    Some people still made their billions however -like Cheney… but they failed in their plans. Now we will all pay a terrible price over the next few years….

  30. Gear Box Avatar
    Gear Box

    If ya t’ink the Americans do it ya’s a conspiracis… If yah t’ink de Arabs do it ya’s a journalist…

    AAAAAAAAghhhhhhhhhhhhh

  31. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    Yah know MME

    You must think that I am a conspiracist for believing that the OBL had the intelligence (information) to know that all it would take is a fire to bring down the three of largest buildings in the history of the world to that date. Well I’ll be a god darned picaninee!

  32. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @MME

    If you are convinced I should desist from the issue.
    However further to ST’s comments, It is one thing to fail, but for all these columns to fail at the same time (allowing effective free fall) is beyond logic.

    MME knows that at least SOME of the columns should have delayed the collapse while the kinetic energy from the falling top sections converted to the stress required to cause their failure.

    ….and you think that BBC were able to ANNOUNCE the collapse 23 minutes BEFORE it occurred because of some advanced analysis similar to that you propose?

    …or did the NY PR people make an error with the pre-planned release???

  33. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    The following three links provide the best overall analysis of the WTC collapses and most common conspiracy theories, in a manner that even a simple micro mock like me can understand. Anyone interested in the scientific method and logical approach to problem solving is encouraged to spend the few minutes required to review these analyses.

    National Institue for Standards & Technology: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

    PopularMechanics: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

    Loose Change Guide: http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

    … and finally, for my last piece of evidence ROFL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OIXfkXEj0

  34. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    ST there is a difference between static and dynamic loading… additionally the structural members were weakened to less than half there strength due to prolonged uncontrolled fire. Check my last three links… all the answers are there.

  35. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    BAFBFP // January 4, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    Yah know MME

    You must think that I am a conspiracist for believing that the OBL had the intelligence (information) to know that all it would take is a fire to bring down the three of largest buildings in the history of the world to that date.
    ——————————————

    Yes BAFBFP, you would have to be a ‘conspiracist’ to believe that, as OSB himself claimed that the attack exceeded his expectations, as he only expected the floors above the crash to be affected.

  36. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    No fires on the lower floors, MME.

    The towers were in fact designed as 3 skyscrapers built on top of each other.

    The reinforced floors at their bases are clearly visible.

    Coincidentally this appears to be where the mysterious molten iron was cascading from.

    WTF was that? Warm custard?

  37. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @MME

    The loose change video convince me.
    Bush Tea done with dat!!!
    Osama dun it.

    ROTFLMAO too…

  38. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    …read the links ST. The ‘mysterious molten’ metal was not iron, and has been explained in the links… here is how mechanical engineer Stephen Chastain of Metal Talk described it: “The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail well below the melting temperature. The flow is likely to be a mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color. ”

    There WERE fires on the lower floors LOL… where are you getting your information ST… there are several reports from the NY fire department and fire officers on the scene that attest to this fact. Lord have mercy! Has anyone taken the time to read the official reports and analyses before jumping on the conspiracy band wagon? You should at least do yourself the favor of reading the official reports and links I have provided before criticising them.

  39. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    MME
    For someone like yourself who relishes in research to up and believe what you hear that OSB/OBL claimed anything at all is as the Bushman would put it, beyond belief. Again I really don’t care how the buildings fell, maybe ten years from now the pentagon will release the patent on some soundless explosive that had been developed twenty years previous by tax payers dollars (like the internet itself). What boggles the mind is the ease that you will accept that a non-white, non-Judeo-Christian was responsible. I would rather you say nothing than make such a ridiculous claim man.

  40. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    LOL BT.

    … but I caan let u get way wid dat BBC report comment.

    Now tell me… dat scenario of the 9/11 perpetrators handing out scripts on building 7 collapsing prior to it actually happening make any sense to you atall atall atall? ROFL
    Well I put it to you that anybody foolish enough to do something like that, could never be capable of pulling off something like the so-called 9/11 coverup. This video may help clarify your concern about the BBC report:

  41. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    BAFBFP… all I can tell you my friend is examine what I believe (i.e. the attacks were planned and executed by al-Qaeda) versus what you believe (the attacks were planned and executed by the US Government) and see who has to jump through the most hoops to defend their belief. Assalamu Alaikum my friend. 🙂

  42. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    MME:

    Now you’ve gone beyond the pale, and moved from serious researcher to apologist.

    What fires are you describing on the lower floors?

    What about the fireman who had gained the 106th floor to report “two small fires …send two lines” and your supposed blast furnace temperatures allowed the unfortunate lady to hang out through the plane’s “scalding” scar for a good 15 minutes pleading for rescue.

    What fires, what!!

    Come with an explanation MME or sneak back to the sheep-pen.

  43. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    LOL ST… just read the links… all the answers you seek about the mechanisms of the building collapses are there. If you have questions or find fault with ANY of the explanations or testimonies of the fire servicemen who responded on the day, I’ll happily discuss them with you.

  44. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “What about the fireman who had gained the 106th floor to report “two small fires …send two lines””

    ST, could you provide me with a link to the source of this information… I would like to look into it further.

  45. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “Again I really don’t care how the buildings fell…”

    uh… earth to BAFBFP… that is the topic of this thread, and the main issue in dispute here LOL.

    “… maybe ten years from now the pentagon will release the patent on some soundless explosive that had been developed twenty years previous…”

    Hoop #1… you make a compelling case BAFBFP… ROFL.

  46. Gear Box Avatar
    Gear Box

    MME

    Now look man. All these suppositions and rationalizations took years to compile. The US Government on the other hand took days to claim to have found fantastic compelling evidence, (pass port in the pile of rubble, maps in a car park, names of suicide pilots, internet videos released by OBL etc.) and prepared responses about if you are not with them you were against them, and to declare this new “international war that will have no end”. The actions of the “international” media as always were and still are highly suspicious. The fact that Al Jazeera offices were targeted and bombed at the outset of the invasion and all of the activities that have taken place since in the name of security… the truth is that the “topic” of this discussion is inadequate. You cannot in good conscience believe that any one other than insiders and/or their allies were behind this.

    Incidentally I am a founding member of Atheist Barbados.

  47. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    I now know who this Gear Box fella is.. and he got his own computer too so he don’t have no right signing in on mine and leaving it. When I catch up to him I gun…

  48. Straight talk Avatar
    Straight talk

    MME:

    Here’s the transcript –
    http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/audiotape.html
    The audio is present on several of the
    9/11 videos.

  49. Green Monkey Avatar
    Green Monkey

    Security Blanket: Western Democracy and the Strategy of Tension

    by Chris Floyd

    The idea that a democratic government would deliberately create fake “extremist groups” then send them out to foment violence and terrorism — in order to discredit legitimate opposition to elite rule and to “justify” authoritarian powers — has long been derided in “serious” circles as that worst of modern heresies: “conspiracy theory.” Anyone advancing such a preposterous notion is instantly relegated to the ranks of the “lunatic fringe,” and dismissed with varying degrees of contempt and condescension.

    And the woeful fact that millions of the ruminants out there in the vast public herd swallow these wild tales and believe that their betters are up to no good is also widely deplored in the higher circles of public discourse. As any fully-accredited, perk-laden, sinecured think-tanker can tell you, democratic governments are led by men and women devoted to public service. Sure, there can be fierce disputes over policies and approaches and outcomes and ideologies and competence. Sure, some people may step over a line here and there in their pursuit of what they believe is the nation’s best interests. But just as western democracies do not torture, do not launch aggressive wars, do not spy upon their own people or imprison them by the millions, they most assuredly do not create and support extremist groups and instigate acts of terror and chaos to advance authoritarian agendas.

    It is indeed unfortunate that the general public is prey to these disturbing theories, which breed such a widespread distrust of the noble intentions and essential (if occasionally misguided or incompentently executed) goodness of our leading men and women. However, there is a very reasonable explanation for the credence given to these fringe beliefs:

    They happen to be true.

    Continued here:
    http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/3/1650-security-blanket-western-democracy-and-the-strategy-of-tension.html

    Jon Gold
    9/25/2008

    Before I begin, I would like to say that theorizing about what happened on 9/11, when you’re not being given answers to your questions about that day by the people who SHOULD be able to do so, is PERFECTLY normal. As is suspecting that the reason these answers aren’t being given is “sinister” in nature. As Ray McGovern said, “for people to dismiss these questioners as “conspiratorial advocates”, or “conspiratorial theorists”… that’s completely out of line because the… The questions remain because the President who should be able to answer them, WILL NOT.” When you think about everything this Administration has done in almost 8 years, the idea that they might not be giving us the answers we seek because of something “sinister” is not crazy. In fact, it’s the most logical conclusion one can come to at this point. After seven plus years of obfuscation, spin, lies, and cover-ups regarding the 9/11 attacks, it is unavoidable to think that criminal complicity is the reason why.

    That being said, we have not proven it beyond the shadow of doubt. We do not have documentation that shows they planned it. We do not have a signed confession from someone. We have pieces of the puzzle, and to most of us that have been doing this a long time, those pieces point to more than just Osama Bin Laden, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and 19 hijackers. If we could somehow download all of our knowledge to every person on the planet, this fight would be over tomorrow. However, we can’t do that. I wish we could. I wish the media would DO THEIR JOB. But, they’re not. Therefore, we have to be smart with how we approach people. This is America, and in America, you are innocent until proven guilty.

    As I have often said, we don’t need to come up with a narrative (theory) because our facts speak for themselves. I am going to do my very best to prove my point. A lot of these facts are from mainstream news outlets. Yes, they do report the news, but they DO NOT put the pieces together, they DO NOT ask the tough questions over and over again until they get an answer, they DO NOT give these facts the attention they should, reminiscent of the attention that Britney Spears, Scott Peterson, The Aruba Murders, and The Swift Boat Veterans got, and they DO NOT portray us in any other light except as “Conspiracy Theorists.”

    Article continued here with a listing of 50 disturbing facts directly or indirectly related to the events of 9/11:
    http://www.911blogger.com/node/17949

    Senior Military, Intelligence, Law Enforcement,
    and Government Officials Question
    the 9/11 Commission Report

    Many well known and respected senior U.S. military officers, intelligence services and law enforcement veterans, and government officials have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report or have made public statements that contradict the Report. Several even allege government complicity in the terrible acts of 9/11. This page of the website is a collection of their statements. The website does not represent any organization and it should be made clear that none of these individuals are affiliated with this website.

    Listed below are statements by more than 150 of these senior officials. Their collective voices give credibility to the claim that the 9/11 Commission Report is tragically flawed. These individuals cannot be simply dismissed as irresponsible believers in some 9/11 conspiracy theory. Their sincere concern, backed by their decades of service to their country, demonstrate that criticism of the Report is not irresponsible, illogical, nor disloyal, per se. In fact, it can be just the opposite.

    http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/
    (click on the link at the top of the page: 150+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials)

  50. BAFBFP Avatar
    BAFBFP

    G Monkey

    One thing more to remember is that Bush himself requested before the 9/11 Commission that no attempt be made to establish culpability. Obviously he like MME needed no real reason to blame and attack Arabs, for in his mind the issue of blame was already settled and could not be reversed.

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