est. 2007

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Lord Nelson Statue Stands Like A Colossus In Heroes Square

It is the month of November when Barbadians will proudly celebrate forty two years as a sovereign country. We are told that the broken trident emblazoned on our national flag represents the break from our colonial past represented by England our colonial master at the time. The BU household is fully aware of the tremendous…

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Nelson Statue Located In Heroes Square Barbados
Nelson Statue Located In Heroes Square Barbados

It is the month of November when Barbadians will proudly celebrate forty two years as a sovereign country. We are told that the broken trident emblazoned on our national flag represents the break from our colonial past represented by England our colonial master at the time. The BU household is fully aware of the tremendous achievements we have made as a tiny island nation comparable with other countries better endowed with financial and other resources.

As a predominantly Black country we can wear our economic and social achievements proudly. As we  continue to bask in our achievements in the relative brief period of sovereignty, we are aware that we still have a long road to travel to foster that esprit de corps we will need  sustain our success. We believe that in recent years the focus of our development has been skewed towards physical at the expense of our social and moral development.

Under the previous government, to their credit they established the Pan African Commission, rebranded Trafalgar Square, Heroes Square and planted the Errol Barrow statue in Independence Square among our symbolic acts targeted at nation building. However the contentious issue of whether Nelson Statue should be removed from Heroes Square remains outstanding.

We suspect that the previous government played politics with this issue to not offend certain interests.

The BU household’s position on whether Lord Nelson should be moved is simple. We cannot deny our past so therefore we do not agree that it should be dumped in the wharf. However if as a country we have seen the need to rename Trafalgar Square to Heroes Square then it becomes fairly obvious, given the symbolism of doing so, that Lord Nelson should not occupy the prominence it now enjoys. Several other locations are available to resite Lord Nelson statue. Does the Thompson government have the commonsense to make the sensible decision?

Here is a contra-position:

Submitted as a comment by John on the Graeme Hall Sanctuary Blog

Go and actually read some history and you will find that not only did Nelson’s victory at the Nile in 1798 save Africa from French invasion, but that he also played a deciding hand in Haitian Independence in 1804.

… and the Louisiana Purchase by America is also directly attributable to the impact he had on French aspirations outside of Europe.

… and how do you think we are able to read the hieroglyphics which opened the world’s eyes to the wonders of early Egyptian civilizations? (Rosetta Stone) Nelson’s impact on world history is far larger that Trafalgar. That was bare icing!! His place was secure long before he died. I just went on the ancestry.com website to look at some of the slaves called after Nelson in 1834.

Here are some examples:

Beck Ann Nelson, Ben Nelson, Betty Easter Nelson, Betty Nelson,Black Nelson, Bob Nelson, Bob Nelson, Bob Nelson, Casar Nelson, Casar Nelson, Daniel Nelson, Debby Nelson, Edward Nelson, Frances Louisa Nelson, George Nelson, George Nelson, George Nelson, George Nelson, George Nelson, George Nelson, Hesther Nelson, Horatia Nelson, Horatio Nelson, Horatio Nelson, Ino Ewd Nelson, James E Nelson, James Nelson, James Nelson, James Nelson, Jim Nelson, Joe Nelson, Joe Nelson, John Nelson, John Nelson, John Nelson, John Nelson, John Nelson, John Nelson, John Nelson, John Nelson, John Nelson, John Nelson, John Nelson, John Nelson, John Nelson, Joseph Nelson, Kitty Nelson, Lord Nelson, M Nelson, Mary Nelson

Why do you think the Horatio Cooke Auditorium in Belmont Road has in the name Horatio? Wonder how the deejay Admiral Nelson got his name? It is a simple fact that Horatio and Nelson were used as christian names from 1798 onward all over the world. Some families actually used those two names over several generations!!

This is not a phenomena limited only to one race or country. It is found throughout the world. Go to familysearch.org and choose a surname and put in horatio as a christian name. Chances are you will get several hits from around the world.

People make the mistake of thinking that Nelson is simply Trafalgar and actually believe that the statue only commemorates the Battle of Trafalgar. The statue is a memorial to a remarkable man and every Bajan living at the time had a hand in its erection.

Go and actually read what it says on the statue and stop listening to people who do not read!! Read, and start thinking for yourself. When you do, think for a moment about why August 1st could have been chosen as emancipation day!!

You will find a compelling reason on the statue!!

Did you know also that there is a “Nelson” Island off the coast of Africa in Aboukir Bay, and why do you think we have a Trafalgar Street, … and a Nile street!! This guy was a superstar in his day!! Only someone who does not read would miss the significance of his life and achievements on world history.

251 responses to “Lord Nelson Statue Stands Like A Colossus In Heroes Square”

  1. General Lee Avatar
    General Lee

    @ Bajan-in-Exile
    “Further to the spurious argument about the placement of Nelson, what percentage of these tourists care anything about Garfield Sobers, Errol Barrow or even Sir Grantley but they can identify with Lord Horatio Nelson. The victor of the battle of Trafalgar.”

    This is one reason that the statue should be moved from HEROES SQUARE and replaced by a memorial to those NATIONAL HEROES that the tourist care nothing about.

    How many tourist that visit Barbados each year, vow not to return because of rampant racism?

  2. David Avatar
    David

    What is interesting about this debate is the fact that commenters don’t see the relevance of giving prominence to national sons of the soil. The fact that most of our young people are brainwashed by external influences, and the fact that most teenagers couldn’t answer who the first native Governor General was or who was our first Premier and we could go on. The fact is our country owes it to our young people to put counter measures in place to offset the influences from outside.

    Our identity as a nation is quickly being diluted, very soon when Peter Wickham floats a question to the young people if Barbados should be annexed to the US or UK they will say yes without hesitation.

  3. The People's Democratic Congress Avatar
    The People’s Democratic Congress

    To: J

    From: the People’s Democratic Congress

    We realize you erroneously and improperly wrote:” PDC is a hardworking capitalist just like the rest of us.”

    J, come on the PDC is a party made up of many, many citizens of Barbados – a group of citizens coming under the title/label – PDC – whose primary purpose is the winning of governmental office in this country.

    The PDC has been in existence since January 2005. Its leader is Mr. Mark A. Adamson. Also, it has an Executive. It has a carefully thought out, well crafted set of policies and strategies for implementation in Barbados, on its becoming the leader of government in Barbados. It contested the last election in this country.

    So, the notion that the PDC is a hard working capitalist is wrong!!

    Furthermore, the notion of a hardworking capitalist does NOT even wash. There is a clear contradiction here. For, the PDC could NEVER be placed among the vast majority of people of Barbados who are workers of the country and who ever so much are so powerless and propertyless relative to a small but powerful elite minority of the country.

    Neither, could the PDC be placed alongside this small but powerful elite minority that have among them many persons that are capitalist in the country. Commercially and productively speaking, the latter persons ( capitalists ) do ever so little in real terms, yet contemptuously get the most of all the commercial and productive returns in the country as well as they own the most property in Barbados. It is this foolishness that the PDC is unalterably opposed to.

    It is these elite capitalist like Sir David Seale, Sir Kyffrin Simpson, Sir John Stanley Goddard, Mrs Ram Merchandani

    So, there you have it!!

    PDC

  4. The People's Democratic Congress Avatar
    The People’s Democratic Congress

    To: J

    From: the People’s Democratic Congress

    We realize you erroneously and improperly wrote:” PDC is a hardworking capitalist just like the rest of us.”

    J, come on the PDC is a party made up of many, many citizens of Barbados – a group of citizens coming under the title/label – PDC – whose primary purpose is the winning of governmental office in this country.

    The PDC has been in existence since January 2005. Its leader is Mr. Mark A. Adamson. Also, it has an Executive. It has a carefully thought out, well crafted set of policies and strategies for implementation in Barbados, on its becoming the leader of government in Barbados. It contested the last election in this country.

    So, the notion that the PDC is a hard working capitalist is wrong!!

    Furthermore, the notion of a hardworking capitalist does NOT even wash. There is a clear contradiction here. For, the PDC could NEVER be placed among the vast majority of people of Barbados who are workers of the country and who ever so much are so powerless and propertyless relative to a small but powerful elite minority of the country.

    Neither, could the PDC be placed alongside this small but powerful elite minority that have among them many persons that are capitalist in the country. Commercially and productively speaking, the latter persons ( capitalists ) do ever so little in real terms, yet contemptuously get the most of all the commercial and productive returns in the country as well as they own the most property in Barbados. It is this foolishness that the PDC is unalterably opposed to.

    It is these elite capitalists like Sir David Seale, Sir Kyffrin Simpson, Sir John Stanley Goddard, Sir Charles Williams, Mr. Assad Haloute, Mrs Ram Merchandani, et al, that have been achieving so much money/value and wealth in this country through wickedly exploiting thousands upon thousands of people on a daily basis in this country, and that have been continuing to do so with a black majority population in existence and a black majority parliament installed.

    So, there you have it, J!!

    PDC

  5. The People's Democratic Congress Avatar
    The People’s Democratic Congress

    To: Bush Tea

    From: the People’s Democratic Congress

    We realize you derisively queried: where are you going get money from to move nelson statue when you abolishing taxes? donations from the National Trust?

    Bush Tea, we remember debating this subject on here with you many blogs ago, and our properly explaining to you, to some extent, how the Abolition of Taxes would come about in Barbados and on what basis, and we remember how you fled the discussion in the end saying how the PDC would still NOT be able to secure your vote nevermind what we had explained.

    Now we query: Have you, Bush Tea, read the Manifesto on line? at http://www.somassfreedem.org? Have you? or have you NOT?

    Well, in case you dont know many, many persons inside and outside of Barbados have been reading through it and have come to the conclusion that it can be done. That is what they tell us. But, we are NOT about what can be done, what we are about is making sure that when we win governmental office in this country that this wicked evil TAXATION will be Abolished in this country and for the eternal benefit of the esp. the masses and middle classes of people of Barbados, and that this statue of Lord Nelson will NOT be there too long after our winning governmental office, even with this wicked evil TAXATION being removed.

    PDC

  6. The Scout Avatar
    The Scout

    It seems we bajans are following some marriage patterns. We concentrate on the weeding but not the marriage. Nationally, we concentrate on getting a day off for Independence but care little about nationality.If we did, it is no way a slave master’s statue could be still placed large and in charge of our Heroes Square. What message are we sending to our? That the white man is still our hero? I’m not saying forget our pass, I’m saying respect our own. Place the NELSON Statue at the end of the pier looking out to sea, but put the busts of ALL our National Heroes in the square with a write up about each of them under their bust. There is so much history of Barbados that needs to be highlighted, too many of our young children know so little about this Nation.

  7. The Scout Avatar
    The Scout

    It is my firm belief that the government should mandate that Christmas music and decorations should only displayed after Independence Day. There are many non-barbadians who are dissing our Independence for financial gains at Christmas but yet throw special celebrations for their own countries Independence. This year, one would think that Independence Day has passed. It is not that I done respect Christmas but over the years it has become so comercial that if this trend continues Independence Day would just be another holiday day.Where is our NATIONAL PRIDE? ARE WE ALLOWING FOREIGNERS TO USRUP US OF OUR NATIONALILTY?

  8. The Scout Avatar
    The Scout

    David
    A few years ago , maybe two or three, I was asked to set and conduct an Independence quizz. I thought I would make it simple since it was supposed to be an annual event. Only 40% of the most simple questions on Barbados were answered; questions like the first P.M; the first G.G.; who wrote the words to the National Anthem; The Music; who designed the National Flag etc. I was so hurt, I was almost in tears, not only in their not knowing but the jovial way they accepted their ignorance. There was no National Pride. I refused to return the following year. This is a sad reflection of who we are as a Nation. I remember standing a few years ago at the National Stadium when the anthem was being played and was jeered by some bajans both young and old. I also remember a few years ago at the Jazz concert by Earth, Wind and Fire at the Gymnasium, the band started to play before the National Anthem was played and the entire audience stood and started singing the anthem and drowned out the band, which stopped and at the end apologised . That night pleased my heart. Education is MOST IMPORTANT. Then bajans would see why Nelson’s Statue, though a small part of our history, does not have any prominence at the top of our main street of our capital.

  9. Cruiser Avatar
    Cruiser

    I’m suggesting our Independence should be celebrated on October 25, November 25 should be Thanksgiving and then Christmas on December 25. Ny celebrating Independence at the end of October it would remove it from it’s proximity to Christmas. “Thanksgiving” can be an important non-religious celebration.

  10. Barbados » Lord Nelson Statue Stands Like A Colossus In Heroes Square

    […] Lord Nelson Statue Stands Like A Colossus In Heroes SquareIt is the month of November when Barbadians will proudly celebrate forty two years as a sovereign country. We are told that the broken trident emblazoned on our national flag represents the break from our colonial past represented by … […]

  11. Cruiser Avatar
    Cruiser

    To you who would like to change history: why dont you move up and live in the present? I bet if Nelson had been a black man your mouth would be very silent.

  12. Anon Avatar
    Anon

    Who remembers when Richard Goddard objected to Bussa statue being erected by declaring that Bussa should be hung from Parliament Building? Is Goddard behind BFP?

  13. God Help Barbados Avatar
    God Help Barbados

    http://leahy.senate.gov/press/199909/990914.html

  14. God Help Barbados Avatar
    God Help Barbados

    http://leahy.senate.gov/press/199909/990914.html

  15. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @J…

    You’re saying that driving while black is an urban myth in 2008? Come on now. What space are you occupying? Go the US and ask all those Black men and women who are stopped, frisked, and in many cases physically abused by the cops if that’s an urban legend!

  16. Negroman Avatar
    Negroman

    Bajan In Exile & Wife
    Two of you all should stay in Exile.What good has that 1 hand,1 eye thiefin,racist,disease,pig smelling white bastard did for Barbados that he should be a national hero of Barbados .I want you or anyone to explain the reason or reasons that pig smelling white bum did for Barbados.
    Lord Nelson should be thrown into the wharf.That wretch of a human being opposed the abolition of slavery and opposed Clarkson & Wilberfoce suggestions of freedom for the slaves.He wrote some of the most dispariging things about black slaves.He was a typical white stinking thiefin bastard.He did nothing for black people or Barbados.
    I do not want to hear any nonsense that he saved us from the French.That is a non issue.The English,The French,The Portugese,The Dutch & The Spaniards were all colonials thiefs.Life for the slaves was not better under any of those criminals.There is no difference if I was speaking,french,german,latin,english or dutch.All are the language of white stinking criminals.
    I do not want any nonsense that it is a tourist attraction and taking down Nelson could affect our tourism from England.Bull shit.Tourism is our major industry that cannot be deny,however it should not be allow superimpose the sovereignty & dignity of a nation and its peolpe.We should never be made subservient and be at the whim & fancy of other people.
    Lord Nelson is no hero of mine neither any stinking,pig looking & pig smelling stinking European.
    Bajan In Exile you & your wife are a disservice to Barbados & if you all are black also a diservice to the black race.

  17. Bonny Peppa Avatar
    Bonny Peppa

    Not only Nelson want moving and ‘put up a bajan man/men but a lot a dese English titles want removing too. Why Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Buckingham Road, Prince of Wales Rd., Princess Margaret School, Her Majesty’s Prison etc. All dese want renaming and I doan k who get vex. We brek way from de Trident but still holding fast to some titles. Get rid a dem. We got a lot a prominent people we could substitute. And I real sorry fa de idiots dat feel dat if we remove Nelson, who in my opinion is of little significance, de tourist won’t come here. I visited USA, Canada, Germany and all the statues I visited are ‘their’ own. ‘Tek down Nelson, put up a bajan man.”
    Ya likes ma?

  18. J Avatar
    J

    No Bonny Peppa:

    Put up a Bajan WOMAN.

  19. J Avatar
    J

    Dear PDC:

    Let me rephrase that. The members of PDC are hard working men and women who are holding thier own in a highly competitive capitalist economy.

    I meant it as a compliment.

    I know Mr. Adamson and even though I may mostly disagree with him I respect his right to put his point of view in the public domain.

    Peace and respect

    J

  20. J Avatar
    J

    Dear Scout

    You wrote ” I was asked to set and conduct an Independence quizz. I thought I would make it simple ”

    I beg you not give up on the young ones. Please continue to contribute to their education. The test may have been simple for you who had the benefit of the Independence experience, but it may have been very difficult for this new generation of young ones. For a child born in 1996, 1966 is ancient history. It is the same as asking a Barbadian who was born in 1950 to say who was governor of Barbados in 1920. I certainly cannot answer that question unless if is is given to me on a quiz. I would need the time to do the research.

    You are generally a pretty reasonable person on these blogs.

    I implore you to continue to contrubute to the education of this new generation.

    Remember each child is a “tabula rasa” a blank slate. There is NO KNOWLEDGE in a child’s head at birth. Knowledge will only grow in our children’s heads if we take the time to put it there.

    Peace and respect

  21. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    God Help ‘you’ Barbados……

    You posting some crap here about a Leahy hearing on hate crime where high up in the second para. is some incidence of of a SINagogue being sprayed with bullets. How many times has it been proven that these same ‘jews’ are like the boy who cry wolf? They are usually the ones who perpetrate these crimes against themselves so as to blame others in order to control the society. Did Leahy ever had a hearing on hate crimes perpetrated by ‘jews’ against muslims or blacks? All you need is an infiltrator/insider to spew crap on the internet and then hire a patsy to carry out the crime. Muzzling the internet has nothing to do with hate speech its all about silencing dissent.

  22. John Avatar
    John

    David // November 17, 2008 at 7:36 am

    What is interesting about this debate is the fact that commenters don’t see the relevance of giving prominence to national sons of the soil. The fact that most of our young people are brainwashed by external influences, and the fact that most teenagers couldn’t answer who the first native Governor General was or who was our first Premier and we could go on.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    … but the issue is the removal of Nelson. The reason for the removal varies

    from ….”What good has that 1 hand,1 eye thiefin,racist,disease,pig smelling white bastard did for Barbados that he should be a national hero of Barbados”

    to …. “Just like a god, this colossus towers every black man, woman and child on the island and in order to see it you must look up, thus reinforcing the “superiority” of this ilk.”

    Nelson and the twenty odd thousand persons memorialised in the Square do not qualify for the status of National Hero because all of them were under constant threat of death and all of them lost their lives as a result.

    People have not twigged to the reason WHY memorials are erected.

    In any Anglican Church there are memorials along the walls to people put by their families after the upheaval caused in their families by their death.

    The headstones of graves also bear the memorials to lost loved ones.

    Nelson, 1813, the Fountain c. 1861 and the Cenotaph, 1925 were put there as memorials to those lost in the major upheavals in the life of the people of Barbados.

    The Cenotaph was put there with a “view to the future”!

    Space was left to put the plaque with the names of the dead of the second world war, … although it was commonly held that the first world war was “the war to end all wars”!!!

    Why on earth would we want to confuse the process of the naming of National Heroes by the GOB, all properly selected by committee, in some cases centuries after the fact, and with a generous sprinkling of imagination, ….. with the harsh reality of the four major catastrophes memorialised by our ancestors, at the time of those events?

    The two don’t really go together.

    We are indulging in fancy, our ancestors were dealing with the harsh reality of loss.

    General Lee said: “It will be easier to move Heroes Square than to move Nelson.”

    I reckon all three memorials are out of place and moving them will cost big bucks.

    Moving Heroes Square would be easier to do.

    … it would also be more sensible.

  23. Bonny Peppa Avatar
    Bonny Peppa

    J,
    Man encompasses woMAN too. (chuckle)
    Scout,
    I want you to set a ‘quizz’ fa me too. I would pass all fa purpose to impress u.
    Seriously, I remember one of my sons represented his school as headboy at a ‘quizz’ or something of the sort and the boy get all de scriptures verses wrong. I tar he tail when he get home fa embarrassing ME, not he, pun national TV.On reflection, I think that the kids get scared with the tension and just simply forget what they learnt so Scout, no need to feel bad. It happens.
    Ya likes me?

  24. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @ John….

    Why don’t you go and take down nelson and erect him on your front lawn or even better put him in your bed since you are in awe of him. The criminal did nothing for black people.

  25. Nutmeg Avatar
    Nutmeg

    Hi David,

    There are points for both sides and arguments against:
    Yes, Nelson is part of our history, whether good or bad, so we should keep him. I think most people agree on that point, the dissention is where.
    Obviously he does not belong in a “Heroes’ Square” (but then was it really his fault that Trafalgar Square was renamed?)
    A Sea Port would be a far more suitable place for a statue of a seaman of his stature in history. (As far as we know, maybe the subscribers wanted him in the harbor but had to settle for land outside)

    Whether he achieved anything for us may be in question, but he must have done something good for someone(s) in this island – we should all respect that.
    For those who argue that he was in agreement to slavery and so has no right to be remembered as a hero – we must remember, slavery was a part of those times, we should not fault a man for the ignorance of an era he lived in, he did do other great things.
    We know better now, that is what should really matter, we cannot change our past but we can help shape the future.

    Here’s an idea – If we build a tourist port in St. James, we can move him up there, and then we won’t have cruise ships taking space in our cargo harbor or shipping vessels getting in the way of our tourists.

  26. Nutmeg Avatar
    Nutmeg

    @ Hopi –

    I loved the native american parable, that was beautifully put… and sadly true.

  27. Bajan-in-Exile Avatar
    Bajan-in-Exile

    God Help Barbados:

    Thanks for that thread. We are justified in what we have said in spite of all the efforts to shut us down.

    The rest of you ………….. continue with your hate crimes, the longest day has its night.

  28. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Wait Negroman buddy, I was wondering when you were going to chime in on this one man?

    Glad to hear ya…

    It’s amazing that we still have people who are ready to defend Nelson’s statue nuh boy!

    I tell ya!

    I already put dat jackass Bajan-in-Exile and she husband pon mute, ignore and discard.

    They’re de best place. In exile.

  29. 199 Avatar
    199

    Hopi // November 17, 2008 at 1:21 pm

    @ John….

    Why don’t you go and take down nelson and erect him on your front lawn or even better put him in your bed since you are in awe of him. The criminal did nothing for black people.

    *******************

    Yes e did!! He rescue us from d tyranny of African such as Rawanda and other such pleasantries!! Perhaps, ud like to have experienced one of them!! Biafra, Zimbabwe, genocide, murder, etc!! Got a relish for being murdered because ur a member of the wrong ethnic group, do u, or perhaps just starving to death because of famine or greedy, gluttonous, mismanagement of the economy and pilfering all u could for yourself and family and blow the rest of the people?!!

    U should tip your hat to Nelson, every time u c e!!

    Ok, he may not have been involved in the slave trade but he helped to keep Bajans safe, in their homes!!

  30. Bajan-in-Exile's Husband Avatar
    Bajan-in-Exile’s Husband

    @ U Negroman and those who seek to deflect the debate:

    Vilifying, mekkin’ sport at, belittling is nothing new in the Caribbean.

    Caribbean parlance: “heckling” “fatigue”

    You have not sought to bring forward the debate by adding useful information, in fact those of “your ilk” puerilize the level of debate rather than listen to the argument.

    If points of the argument disturb you, why not ask yourself why? Hold it up to inspection, at yourself first, at what you might consider informed or neutral sources, and then come back to the debate with some refutation which you have resourced and checked out.

    If you read this far and have not blown a fuse, how does it affect your self-esteem, your image of yourself if one of the boys one the block call you a “johnny”? You might frounce up your face, you might lef the block for a night but all that gin boil down and you gin be back out there with the fellas the next night, if you’s any kind of man at all or the fellas will say Negroman can tek he heckle, he too touchy.

    So heckling me and disrespecting my wife ain gin chase me away, whether I get vex or not I gin come back to reason with you in the hope that maybe a LITTLE light will shine in your darkness so that you can perceive that black people or any other enslaved race have within itself the ability and resources to rise above their oppressors and not to validate their violence with more violence.

    Barbados has for generations, and the whole Caribbean for that matter, marketed itself as a tourist destination, as a place where it is tranquil, peaceful and people are friendly. Set in a surrounding of historic landmarks erected in times of great pomp and majesty. Not mentioned: on the backs of some of those who lived there. Remove any part of this intricate pattern and you are apt to cause total collapse.

    Would you appreciate being treated like a PIG? Or hearing the fellas on the block sayin he smell like an old dog or a pig? You think the tourists deaf and ignorant or what? Them have feelings too.

    Read Time magazine circa 1980: SLAVERY IS STILL ALIVE!

    Are you aware of Darfur, the Dominican Republic (documented by CBC – Big Sugar)? In the Arab countries where Yemeni women are subject to brutal assaults and sexual molestation by their employers who are financially and socially the elite – they are Moslems BTW.

    The enslavement of people by other people did not start with caucasians and Africans or Africans on Africans, slavery has been with us since the beginning of recorded history and there are still slaves in Africa – Gabon 1995 – children, documented by the UN.

    How about the enslavement of Bajan minds t0 this futile and time-wasting argument about past abuses, perpetrated by people long since dead and perpetuated by the descendants ,many generations removed, of the slaves?

    Even worse, the support and promotion of it by the purported “intelligentia”.

    Why aren’t they committing their enormous intellectual energies to researching, defining, developing philosophies and systems that could advance the people of the Caribbean? Financially, socially and morally?

    We cannot change the past, we need not deny it but we cannot live there either. Living in the past breeds DYSFUNCTIONALITY.

  31. Bajan-in-Exile's Husband Avatar
    Bajan-in-Exile’s Husband

    Read 199’s comment which is reality TODAY.

    If you all like it so bad why you don’t get up and go there!

    From the Bajans I have met who have been there, working for int’l organizations……….they don’t want to go back. They like Barbados too bad…whites included. Why you all don’t stop dreaming?

  32. Hopi Avatar
    Hopi

    @199…
    Why are you stuck at 199, why not move on to 200? Tell me how that marauding gangster nelson did anything for black people. How did he help you? He invaded Kimet and the rest is history. He might be a hero to you his kind but surely not me nor my kind. When my offsprings go to school I tell them to question everything that they are being force fed. When they come home we sit down and decipher every bit and we know to keep it in context. I always remind them of the sewer under which we are living, that its a hoax a fraud and in doing so I trying to liberate and protect their minds so that they can forge their own path. HOPI does not need nelson nor his ilk and I can prove to you that its his same kind that has planet earth in peril. As a matter of fact I don’t need any damn heroes. HOPI has HOPI. He might have rescued you from tyranny, but its his kind that took tyranny to Africa. Westerners are celebrating 2008 yrs of history, how long have black people been on this planet? Why is there mayhem in Africa? Did you ever hear of precious minerals, gold, oil, gas, coltan…? Today Europe is still pillaging Africa becuase they NEED her and they’re giving them weapons to kill each other and just like the African in the motherland we in the west are also enslaved whether or not you accept that. All you seem to know is what they teach you but have no fear because this game over here is nearing its end. Enjoy the coming tyranny.

  33. Avatar
    Anonymous

    J want a woman in nelson’s place…well I want Ossie Moore but on reflection given the behaviour of most of our politicians and with regard to the fact that the location is in Bridgetown, how about a statue to the Unknown (or is it unknowning?) Whore. It would not be a big change from nelson.

  34. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Hey Hopi where Burundians learn these ideas? see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7733597.stm

  35. General Lee Avatar
    General Lee

    @ John // November 17, 2008 at 12:09 pm

    “General Lee said: “It will be easier to move Heroes Square than to move Nelson.”

    Please don’t do that to me John. 🙂

    This is what I said:

    General Lee // November 16, 2008 at 5:21 pm
    “The former DLP administration only turned him around because of those same interest.
    It will be easier to move Heroes Square than to move Nelson. Those interests are still here and still influential.
    I don’t think they (GOB) have the guts”

    I was not saying that Heroes Square should be moved, even though I acknowledge that renaming Trafalgar Square, Heroes Square, with Nelson still present was stupid and shows that serious thought was not given to this national heroes thing.

  36. Cruiser Avatar
    Cruiser

    I noticed that … very conveniently? … no one is responding to my contention… that if Nelson had been black… there would not be a peep coming out of anybody’s mouth.

    But I ask a more serious question… Where is the past? It doesn’t exist, except in your mind. But so many of you live there. In a no space place. That’s why the majority who still live on a flat earth are where they are: trying to stop ythemselves from falling over an imaginary rim… a rim that does not exist.

    OK … stay there… but dont carp at those who are leaving you in the backwash.

  37. Sundowner Avatar
    Sundowner

    History is history, if he’s moved, turned round, taken away forever, it doesn’t change history……..

  38. Avatar
    Anonymous

    History is that he should be moved because the people have awakened and realised that he was a blasted slav catcher

  39. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Cruiser shut the FUC*** up! You talking bare shite! It is not in my mind that we were dragged and whipped across here amongst shite and pist what the hell are you saying is that all in my mind too! What are you saying!

    RU4 real!

  40. John Avatar
    John

    When Systems did a sample survey at the time of the renaming of the square and removal of Nelson they reckoned two thirds of the population was AGAINST the removal of Nelson.

    The survey indicated that a majority favoured the renaming of Trafalgar Square.

    I think we have to remember that the renaming of the square and suggested removal of Nelson came out of a Government that gave us among other things, Greenland, GEMS, Flyovers, Dodds, etc etc.

    Quite apart from the logic I have presented there is every likelihood that this decision was flawed too, as were so many other decisions.

    I doubt if the period 1994 -2007 will be remembered as our finest hour and I suspect the more people think about the decision on Heroes Square and Nelson the more they will realise it too was pretty badly flawed.

    Like so many other decisions of the time, it was taken for the wrong reasons.

  41. David Avatar
    David

    @John

    We notice that you and others are always selective in the quotes taken from BU commenters to support your arguments.

    On another note historian Trevor Marshall was a consultant in the former Prime Minister’s Office and we all know that he is against Nelson statue on Broad Street. Did he make a recommendation to move Nelson statue and was it refused?

  42. Bajan-in-Exile Avatar
    Bajan-in-Exile

    For those of you who have stoked the debate about slavery, read this interesting article from the Jamaican Gleaner written by a black man.

    If you want to cuss him, his e-mail is at the bottom of the article — feel free!

    Slavery was good for the black man
    Michael Dingwall
    Saturday, August 09, 2008

    As we celebrate emancipation and independence, we are being reminded of the horrors of slavery. According to our leaders, academics and others, slavery was the worst institution ever created. However, while it is popular for most to agree with this claim, I beg to disagree. Indeed, contrary to the belief that slavery was bad for us blacks, I believe that slavery was good for us.
    Have we ever stopped to consider where we black people, especially those of us in the West, would be right now if it weren’t for the Atlantic Slave Trade? What state do you think black Africa would be in today? Do you think that we would have been better off without slavery? I don’t think so!
    When the Europeans went to Africa to buy slaves, what did they find? They found a society and people vastly inferior to theirs. While the Europeans had emerged from their feudal practices, our ancestors in Africa, for the most part, had not developed for many centuries. We did not understand the concept of nation or government. Science and technology (and innovations in these areas) were non-existent in black Africa of the 15th and 16th centuries. Indeed, as a people, we had no sense of self-identity. In many respects, we were uncivilised.
    Slavery was our most important contact with modernity. It is through this “most heinous system ever created” that we blacks were able to understand some of the principles of global trade. Our ancestors were introduced to the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade between Europe, Africa and the West Indies. Black Africa’s part in the trade was the importation of European technology and the export of slaves. The importation of European technology was important – even though the Africans did not appreciate this importance at first. The export of slaves was also very important, especially for us in the West.
    As time went on, we blacks, both in Africa and especially in the Caribbean were, in many ways, being Europeanised and thus civilised. We adopted several aspects of their culture – their systems of government, their technologies, their sense of order and their languages. In doing this, we discarded those aspects of our culture that clearly placed us at a disadvantage – like our lack of sense of self, loyalty to the tribe and our non-participation in modern technology.
    Although not a believer in any god myself, the Christianity that came with slavery and European control would be of immense value to us black people. Back in Africa, we were preoccupied with the worship of animals, trees, spirits of the dead – even stones. These primitive religions that we were practising ensured that our ancestors in Africa were backward. The relatively superior Christianity, with its greater sense of order and responsibility would help, in many ways, to pull the black man out of the Stone Age. This could only have happened with slavery.
    Our relatively stable societies today, especially in the West, are testaments to the benefits of slavery. While it is true that black Africa has, for the most part, squandered the opportunities that slavery offered in the past, the positive influence of European civilisation cannot be denied. The black nation states of Africa and the Caribbean have given black people a sense of nation, a sense of identity, a sense of order and a sense of purpose – things we never had before.
    While we continue to demonstrate our inferiority in the areas of science and technology, through centuries of being exposed to Europe on account of slavery, we blacks are now aware of the need for us to start excelling in these areas.
    Those of us who continue to see the millions of blacks who died crossing the Atlantic and the displacement of what we had in Africa as proof that slavery was a bad institution don’t understand the mechanics of human development and evolution. Similar processes had to be endured by countless peoples thoughout history. The development of the human race has always involved the need for change. Slavery was one such means, and like it or not, we blacks are the beneficiaries. It is not for us today to judge the means through which societies have changed in the past.
    We blacks were changed, for the better, I might add, on account of slavery. We are a better race today because our ancestors went though slavery. The millions of lives lost were not lost in vain. The Europeans proclaimed the need for us to be civilised through slavery and though this may be hard to understand, they were right. Indeed, based on what is happening in black Africa today – slavery for us in the West was, in many respects, our salvation.
    Michael Dingwall is a freelance writer.
    michael_a_dingwall@hotmail.com

  43. Avatar
    Anonymous

    This Dingbat person is perverse! Can one conceive of the possibility that had there been no Atlantic slave trade and no European colonial exploitation of Africa that the problems we see today in Africa might not have occurred!

    Mrs Bajan-in-exile you are incredibly offensive to the point of promoting evil. What next the Jews should thank Hitler for the holocaust because that made the establishment of Israel possible?!!

    If I were David I would expunge that evil from this blog.

  44. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Before that post by that exile person I really couldn’t care less about nelson but now after coming to understand the evil and loathing of Black people bound up in that piece of metal, not only do I wish it removed but dumped into sea so that the evil it represents may never be visited upon this beautiful island ever again.

  45. John Avatar
    John

    I recall attending the consultations on the National Heroes chaired by George Branker, the clerk of Parliament.

    They concentrated mainly on the removal of Nelson. This was back in 1997 to 1999. Some were real hot.

    Queens Park, after some serious shouting, belonged to Julian Hunte who went last. He was brilliant.

    I heard all the rhetoric then which I am hearing/reading now on the blogs.

    I heard about the Maritime Museum back then, a decade or more ago. I am still hearing about it today …. but it hasn’t quite materialised.

    There was a proposal to rename Queens Park as Heroes Park. Think this was made by Sir John Stanley.

    Still reckon this is probably the way to go.

    I think that the proposal to move Nelson did not receive the widespread acceptance that was expected.

    Quite the opposite.

    Very cogent arguments were presented against the proposal from many quarters and of course, the opinion poll by Systems indicated that nearly two thirds were against it.

    The Poll was conducted by Systems and appeared in the Nation of May 14 1999. Just found the clipping from then.

    The powers that be at the time I believe chose to lay low.

    I think they were possibly flying a kite to see what would happen.

    I recall Trevor Marshall was very much against Nelson and was for the removal of the statue. He was as you say a consultant in the former PM’s office. Every now and then he has his say on TV or in the papers.

    I got interested in the issue at the time.

    I started out not caring either way what was done, then I did some reading in the Public Library.

    The Internet was new to me then and it was on here that I was able to research alot of the relevant history. I was a like a kid with a new toy.

    I was fortunate to have had Captain Hutt who, while he was not the greatest of history teachers was a military man and communicated his awe at the sheer audacity of Nelson at the Battle of the Nile in 1798. Guess I listened.

    Since then the more I research History, which is an interest of mine, the more I come across Nelson and the more I realise that the rhetoric which I have heard since 1997/9 bears little semblance to reality.

    Many people at the time reckoned that the naming of Heroes Square and the defining of a National Hero as being Barbadian was done as a political move to get Nelson moved.

    They figured it was to do with the politics of inclusion and the currying of favour with Pan Africanists who at the time appeared to have considerable political power.

    That was a long time ago!!! I enjoyed the experience and appreciate the knowledge I gained over the time.

  46. John Avatar
    John

    … sorry

    that was a response to David’s blog.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    David // November 17, 2008 at 9:41 pm

    @John

    We notice that you and others are always selective in the quotes taken from BU commenters to support your arguments.

    On another note historian Trevor Marshall was a consultant in the former Prime Minister’s Office and we all know that he is against Nelson statue on Broad Street. Did he make a recommendation to move Nelson statue and was it refused?

  47. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Hutt didn’t teach us about Chatoyer and the Garifuna people of St Vincent or the Saramaccan people of Surinam or about Nanny and the Marroons of Jamaica. In fact, he didn’t teach at all just drew a salary under false pretenses.
    John reads the history of Nelson and learns how powerful the British were, I read about the previously mentioned people and learnt how powerful WE are.

  48. Avatar
    Anonymous

    Owen Arthur’s legacy will be that he flinched at striking a blow for our own mental emancipation when he refused to remove nelson and to remove the british queen as our head of state.

  49. Bajan-in-Exile's Husband Avatar
    Bajan-in-Exile’s Husband

    Anonymous:

    As we said earlier to Negroman, calling people names does not invalidate what they have said. It indicates that you are unwilling to face the possibility that your favourite point-of-view may be wrong.

    Have you read or heard of Francis Bok? Well here is an excerpt from his speech to Harvard Law School:

    This Far By Faith: Francis Bok Speaks Out
    Francis Bok, former Sudanese slave

    Escaped slave Francis Bok speaks to Harvard Law School students and community members about the horrors of slavery from his own experience, and shares how his faith helped to keep him alive. In 1986, Bok was abducted at age seven during a slave raid on his village in southern Sudan. He saw adults and children brutalized and killed before his eyes. For ten years, he slept outside with cattle, endured daily beatings, ate rotten food, and worked as a slave. Since his escape, he has dedicated his life to speaking on behalf of those who are still in bondage. “What good is my freedom if my brothers and sisters around the world are still not free?”, he asks.

    Mr. Bok has spoken on college campuses across the country, testified to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, been profiled in the Wall Street Journal and on NPR, and carried the 2001 Winter Olympic Torch on its national relay tour. On October 21, 2002, Bok was invited to the White House for the Sudan Peace Act signing ceremony where he spoke with President Bush at length, perhaps becoming the first former slave to meet an American president since the 19th Century.

    While most Americans believe that slavery ended in 1865, the reality is that an estimated 30 million people worldwide are enslaved today, more than at any other time in history. Modern-day slavery is defined as “forced labor without pay under the threat of violence.” Contemporary slavery includes debt bondage, chattel, and sex slavery. The United States legally abolished slavery more than a century ago, but slavery still exists within our borders. According to the CIA, 50,000 people are brought from countries around the globe under false or misleading pretenses and enslaved in US cities.

    The people raiding those Darfur villages were not WHITE they were black. If you go check your history you will see throughout the islamic expansion into North Africa, that anyone that did not convert to Islam was enslaved or killed.

    What about the current practice of these Sudanese raiders to rape women and leave them in Darfur knowing that they will be rejected by their own and marking them as raped?

    You think that the Caribbean is badly off? What about Ghana, formerly known as the Gold coast one of the wealthiest countries of the world with mineral resources now bankrupt?

    What about Zimbabwe and Rawanda where inter-tribal warfare has been categorized as genocide?

    We are not talking about one tribe from Africa versus one tribe from Venezuela. We are talking about people who have lived and grown up next to one another for generations and now that there is a possibility for them to advance together, they revert to inter-tribal warfare using modern day weapons.

    The author of the article in the Gleaner, clearly says that he is not a believer or supporter of the Christian faith but he notes that in the western hemisphere and the Caribbean in particular that Christianity has had the effect of stabilizing our ability to live with each other and prosper.

    What is so difficult about these concepts for you to accept? Except that it demands of you that you take your nose up out of the filth and look at what is really going on.

    If Barbadians adopt your attitude, Barbados is on the way to destruction, not forward and Barbadians like myself who have to forego living in their country of birth are so sad that you all are driving it towards destruction and you refuse to turn away.

  50. Bajan-in-Exile's Husband Avatar
    Bajan-in-Exile’s Husband

    Anonymous:

    As we said earlier to Negroman, calling people names does not invalidate what they have said. It indicates that you are unwilling to face the possibility that your favourite point-of-view may be wrong.

    Have you read or heard of Francis Bok? Well here is an excerpt from his speech to Harvard Law School:

    This Far By Faith: Francis Bok Speaks Out
    Francis Bok, former Sudanese slave

    Escaped slave Francis Bok speaks to Harvard Law School students and community members about the horrors of slavery from his own experience, and shares how his faith helped to keep him alive. In 1986, Bok was abducted at age seven during a slave raid on his village in southern Sudan. He saw adults and children brutalized and killed before his eyes. For ten years, he slept outside with cattle, endured daily beatings, ate rotten food, and worked as a slave. Since his escape, he has dedicated his life to speaking on behalf of those who are still in bondage. “What good is my freedom if my brothers and sisters around the world are still not free?”, he asks.

    Mr. Bok has spoken on college campuses across the country, testified to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, been profiled in the Wall Street Journal and on NPR, and carried the 2001 Winter Olympic Torch on its national relay tour. On October 21, 2002, Bok was invited to the White House for the Sudan Peace Act signing ceremony where he spoke with President Bush at length, perhaps becoming the first former slave to meet an American president since the 19th Century.

    While most Americans believe that slavery ended in 1865, the reality is that an estimated 30 million people worldwide are enslaved today, more than at any other time in history. Modern-day slavery is defined as “forced labor without pay under the threat of violence.” Contemporary slavery includes debt bondage, chattel, and sex slavery. The United States legally abolished slavery more than a century ago, but slavery still exists within our borders. According to the CIA, 50,000 people are brought from countries around the globe under false or misleading pretenses and enslaved in US cities.

    The people raiding those Darfur villages were not WHITE they were black. If you go check your history you will see throughout the islamic expansion into North Africa, that anyone that did not convert to Islam was enslaved or killed.

    What about the current practice of these Sudanese raiders to rape women and leave them in Darfur knowing that they will be rejected by their own and marking them as raped?

    You think that the Caribbean is badly off? What about Ghana, formerly known as the Gold coast one of the wealthiest countries of the world with mineral resources now bankrupt?

    What about Zimbabwe and Rawanda where inter-tribal warfare has been categorized as genocide?

    We are not talking about one tribe from Africa versus one tribe from Venezuela. We are talking about people who have lived and grown up next to one another for generations and now that there is a possibility for them to advance together, they revert to inter-tribal warfare using modern day weapons.

    The author of the article in the Gleaner, clearly says that he is not a believer or supporter of the Christian faith but he notes that in the western hemisphere and the Caribbean in particular that Christianity has had the effect of stabilizing our ability to live with each other and prosper.

    What is so difficult about these concepts for you to accept? Except that it demands of you that you take your nose up out of the filth and look at what is really going on.

    If Barbadians adopt your attitude, Barbados is on the way to destruction, not forward and Barbadians like myself who have to forego living in their country of birth are so sad that you all are driving it towards destruction and you refuse to turn away.

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