Was at the world-famous Kensington Oval cricket ground today, along with thousands of Barbadians to witness the public ’swearing-in’ of the new Democratic Labour Party Cabinet before the Governor General.
It was obviously a celebratory occasion for most but remarkably in today’s world it was an essentially ‘Christian ceremony’ with much prayer, singing and dance, with church leaders giving keynote exhortations and which seems to mark a strong change from the former Government’s stance of embracing religious pluralism. Cynically the danger of this is an outward show of religion for political purposes but one sensed here more genuine motives than that and certainly the opportunity given to the heart-felt prayers of the good cross section of church leaders was more than could be expected in most countries of the world. All in all, a remarkable occasion
with much potential for good, although we are in a nation which still retains much outward religious activity which can inoculate people against catching the real thing! Let us pray that the vows publicly made today in God’s presence will be honoured and this Government really will seek the guidance of God in these globally troubled times.
Source: Rowland Whitehead’s Webblog
It has been some years since the disestablishment of the Anglican Church in Barbados. They are some who will say that the slide in the morals of the Barbados society maybe traced to that period. Whether this is true or not is left to others decidedly more learned than the batty folks in the BU household to ponder. Maybe our friend Bush Tea will be able to delve into his repertoire of many theories to offer up a basis for a meaty discussion point on the subject. At the ‘swearing-in’ ceremony yesterday, Barbadians who witnessed it were able to make a ‘connection’, call it spiritual, call it connecting to something familiar; call it what you want but something ‘greater’ emerged last evening at the controversial Kensington Oval in our opinion.
Did you feel it too?
The decision by Prime Minister David Thompson to have a ‘Christian ceremony’ is consistent with David the family man, whose religiousness can be traced to his days at the Combermere School, where it is reported that he was an active member of the now little known ISCF (Inter School Christian Fellowship). This group is comprised of young people who wanted to keep God at the centre of their activities – is this group still active? We make this point to brush the argument which will be offered that Thompson may well have used the occasion of the swearing-in of his Ministers to be opportunistic. The evidence is strong that what Barbadians witnessed at Kensington Oval yesterday is Thompson the real deal. When the camera panned to his family it was easy to discern that they were in a comfort zone through-out the proceedings. Daddy, mummy et al were all singing along to the medley of Joseph Niles classics; I’ll be damn 🙂
The majority of the partisan audience seemed to be fully on-board with the direction Thompson took them. The big question left to be answered is the point which our friend alludes to in his blog. How will the Barbados society which was being taken in a direction of religious pluralism and relativism under the previous administration react to the unfolding shift in doctrine? To use jargon which was prevalent in the election period just concluded, if we were to analyze the large sample size at the Oval yesterday, a good conclusion can be made that Prime Minister Thompson maybe on to something. If this is the case it might provoke some to ask the question whether the Barbados Labour Party (BLP) will have to respond to this new path Prime Minister David Thompson is prepared to trod. This we know is bound to open the debate as to the qualification of Mia Mottley for the role of Prime Minister of Barbados. No doubt we will have some time to debate this issue in the future – you are free to do a search using ‘Mia Mottley‘ keywords on BU to read related topics.
Prime Minister David Thompson and his cabinet from all reports have started the job of governing even before being officially sworn-in yesterday. At this early stage Thompson has signaled his intention that his will be a government which is people centred. Perhaps we should rephrase, his is a government that will put FAMILY FIRST.
Preach it!!!!!!!!!!
Nonsense!
I re-iterate recent expressions of doubt about the wisdom of involving christianity too, closely in politics. Clearly, I’m not the only one who can see the danger of this:- quote from article above:
“Cynically the danger of this is an outward show of religion for political purposes”
Various pillars of society need to retain their independence of thought and expression which is n’t aided by ‘getting too, close to politicians’!
I think that Barbados has gotten too far from the religion, good ethics and morals which were always a part of our societal make up. We have embraced the US model of not allowing religion to be dominant or too prevalent and it is clear to me that this has led to a great deal of societal ills. I am glad to see the embrace again, my only hope is that it is sincere and that its importance is understood by all politicians as we are nothing without the Father and we can go nowhere without His guidance.
‘A country in which poverty has been banished:
Where ignorance no longer exists,
Where fear and intimidation have no place, and where people can participate fully in the decision-making processes that affect their lives.’
‘The strongest message as your Prime Minister that I can send to you is that regardless of your age, gender, class or political affiliation, you have a part to play, in the new Barbados’.
The Right Hon. Daviid Thompson, Prime Minister
20th January 2008
I doubt no doubt that Thompson is genuinely religous and a family man at heart. I think tho that knownst or unbeknownst to him he may have started the 2012/2013 campaign against Mia already. If all goes reasonably well till next election time then Mia will not stand chance against a religon but more so morals being stressed in the next campaign. Guess we will have to wait and see.
regards
Hello Barbados, I am surprised you didn’t say that Guyanese were responisble for your decline in moral values and the de-establishing of the Anglican Church of Barbados as your state religion. Well, my President is a sinle 43 year old male, Hindu, graduate of Moscow University and he presides over a nation of Hindus, Moslems, Buddhist, Jews, Bahais, Ethiopian Othodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Seventh Day Adeventists and so on. I hope since you all returning to Jesus, I pray that he will put it into you all hearts to love all people regardless of how they behave, as it’s the Christian thing to do. We are all the same. Bye
Today I witness one of the greatest events in Barbados. Politics united with religion to steer us in the right direction. We as a people by a majority vote had elected a new Government to serve over the next term and we turned out in numbers to watch them make their oaths of allegiance. The significance of the oaths was made more realistic to the observers and some how made the Government even more accountable. One thing was loudly disturbing, although the public were all invited, I saw no show of any of the opposition. And here I was thinking that their sincerity might have been more blatant had they turned out in their numbers and sit with a solidified presence together.
Ecumenical Swearing In
Elections over and a new Government to be sworn in
Cabinet selected from the team that did win
Ushered to the Nation at the Kensington Oval
Making oaths of allegiance to the Governor General
Electorate came in thousands to witness the event
Numerous supporters to see their new Government
I felt in the wind a time for National Unity
Calmness in the air, a peace and God’s glory
A time for healing and reconciliation
Life better for the people of our great Nation
Strength, commitment, sacrifice and discipline
Working together, on new pathways progressing
Elation brought tears and it brought smiles
A sweet nostalgia came from the gospel of Joseph Niles
Reverends, Priest, clergymen and many others
Intercessions all made by these spiritual leaders
Never have I known an event like this
Governance was started with a spiritual bliss
I know if you look back too long you’ll head that way
Now it’s time to get on the Progressive Pathway
I just viewed the video posted here of The Hon. PM David Thompson announcing his cabinet, and I must say he is indeed very elegant and sophisticated and from that observation, I will say the diamond years are here for the great nation of Barbados. I was surprised that he does not have an accent. I was expecting an accent, no trace of any, at least for me.
That he is Sister Baby ! Further, any leader who is willing to acknowledge God, his cause will be acknowledged by God.
Honourable David, just ensure that you are always sincere. The toughest words Jesus had were for the Pharisees (hypocrites).
Keep up the good work!
I think this link is interesting and relevent:
http://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2008/01/19/guy-hewitt-writes-an-open-letter-to-the-press-on-religion-and-politics/
I posted on it, but I will repeat my post here:
In fairness to the Nation editorial of January 13, 2008, there is a debate here, and I think they do make one or two important points. They rightly point out the horrors and oppression (especially of women) of some of the non-Christian religions. They mention the many wars inspired by religion, and the more recent irrational violence of religious extremism. No, of course we do not want a theocracy.
Now Guy Hewitt does centre his views on the Christian faith, and being Christian myself I have no problem with that, but whilst reading his article I could not help be reminded of the nearly intractable situation in Northern Ireland when Protestant and Catholic ministers used to incite their parishioners to hatred.
However, the substance of his argument is not specific to Christianity, I think. I will quote from him:
“The church must speak out against materialism, individualism, violence. It must speak out against corruption, gossip, fornication and adultery. It must speak out against excessive partying, drugs and alcohol abuse. The church must also speak out against any political culture that may tarnish our history or rob us of our expectations great.”
Rather than say “the church”, I would have preferred to read “the various religious faiths”., and rather than the broad sweep of a “political culture”, I think he could simple have said “any individuals (who)”.
I am only thinking out loud. What do others think?
I notice that the majority religions in Barbados participated in the ceremony. No Muslims, Bahi’s and others. Are we really a multi-religious society and do we practice no descrimination according to our constitution?
Just asking.
to love all people regardless of how they behave, as it’s the Christian thing to do.
*********************************
Sister Baby, u must be a fantasist! Get real!!!!
We demand that our politicians have high standards of ethics and morality, these demands contributed to the election result, but we can do so without entangling government with organized religion. This is a backward step. I presume it is not also a cynical one.
Barbados is a predominantly Christian society, but within Christianity there are many denominations and there is a significant non-Christian minority here. In the UK where I have just returned there is a sorry history of discrimination, terror and bloodshed in the fight between Protestants and Catholics.
It is important for good governmance and confidence in government that when people engage with government, be it at the courts, in licensing, or in any other way, that they do not feel that their faith, or particular place of worship has impacted the decision in any way. The State must remain separate from religion. This is the founding stone of America’s founding fathers for good reason. They knew the history of religious discrimination in Europe.
Faith is important to many individuals, but faith is about belief and sometimes belief beyond practical reason. We should want government to be focused on reason and to respect, accept and encourage individuals to pursue their faith they way they would like to.
We have witnessed in America an example of what happens when the self-appointed moral majority gains power in the firm belief that their god is on their side. An estimated 150,000 people have died in an Iraq war sponsored by this moral majority. My god would disagree with theirs. This same moral majority is forcing schools to teach creationism alongside evolution as science.
People are entitled to their faith, but it is dangerous when they try to impose their interpretation of their faith on others. Keeping religion primarily focused on personal and community behaviour is good for the Church and State. The more the Church is separate from the State the more it can take a critical look at what the State is doing at a moral and ethical level. The more it is part of the State, the more it will lose its moral authority. Thomas Jefferson once wrote that the sure way to kill religion in America was to give America an official religion.
Did someone ask us to change our faith or our religion?
What I am seeing is a country in need of healing. People for days have been talking about how the day of election felt; as if it were a funeral or somebody had died. There seems now to be a change in the air. A feeling as though one can freely speak, cuss the government even though it has not spent a day in office yet.
This is the first election where people were openly discussing voting out the government because they felt they had had enough.
It was not the economy it was the attitudes which got them fired.
Since I believe in God I figure that the country is off to a good start, but the individual has to take some responsibility for where it goes. It is alright to have a feel good experience witnessed in the euphoria of the moment, but we still have to live responsible lives.
We have to take decisions which would keep us safe and make us prosperous hence we should take decisions to eat healthy; have safe sex if we insist on sex; work for an honest pay; give our employers their time; stop accumulating debt; save some money; in short live responsible lives and then we would surely see the turnaround. (I live in a funny place neh?)
Until we can do the stuff that is required we will always have some talking point.
Bimbro, I follow Christ and so I am Christ like in my dealings with all sorts of people. Look if I was to worry with people I would get high blood pressure.
I did not see it as imposing religion on a person, I saw it as highlighting the importance of religion.
Not the doctrines of the Bible, the script of hymns etc. but the message these things convey- morals, ethics, responsibility, respectability, etc.
But that’s just my take on it as I feel that the youth especially in this country has distanced itself greatly from a lot of these things as it was not really pushed by leaders and role models before (the prevalence of the “bling” culture, prominence of overseas rap singers, war dub stars, etc.)
Thomas & Anonymous and many of you are making some telling points, maybe we should start at what defines moral and use that as a push-off. We did a poll in the BU household this morning albeit; it was without the assistance of Peter Wickham and we were unable to identify a framework outside of religion which has helped a human being to consistently remain on a path which is tied to a set of beliefs. As anonymous stated, it is up to the individual to decide the path she or he wants to take but for the moment, in the morass which has surfaced in Barbados, King David has decided to show the way.
If you think King David has not made his mark already, check this picture.
Kellman dismissed rumours he had been offered a ministry and the position of Speaker.
People should stop trying to make excuses for Thompson, I see him as a great illusionist.
http://www.nationnews.com/story/11070785842182.php
Spirituality and Religion are not necessarily the same thing. Spirituality is the recognition that there is a force greater than us mere mortals and the sense of peace that comes to the individual who accepts that there is a force greater than us. This force is not necessarily “GOD” nor does it have to be found through organized religion.
Mixing politics with organized religion is a very slippery slope. One only has to look at the current administration of the U.S. and the direction that the country, as a whole, is taking. The U. S. is in the grips of The Fundementalist right wing religious zealots who are dictating foreign policy and attempting to strip its’ citizens of the most basic human rights.
I would hope that The Honourable Mr. Thompson would give certainly seek the input of the various church leaders in Barbados but at the same time keep them at arms length. Please do not confuse spirituality with religion
That picture is of Mia, the quintessential Caribbean politician who is already on the campaign trail—I tell you that girl does not let grass grow under her feet. Opening expos, touring rain forests, and now holding child—you see she is versatile.
DID YOU HEAR THIS STATEMENT TOO>
The religious minister who preached, made a statement, might not be the exact words, but with the same implication. “Any changes made on earth, the same changes will be made in heaven”. What is he trying to say. Is he making fun with religion? I fail to understand why such a statement will be made in such a context during an occasion like yesterday.
David of BU, Thomas, Anonymous or PIEDPIPER did you hear that statement. What are your feelings about such a statement.
David,
“If you think King David has not made his mark already, check this picture.”
What does David Thompson have to do with a photo of a woman holding a child?
Have you never seen Bajan people holding children?
There is nothing new or spectacular about that.
Sister Baby // January 21, 2008 at 9:01 am
Bimbro, I follow Christ and so I am Christ like in my dealings with all sorts of people. Look if I was to worry with people I would get high blood pressure.
*****************************
I understand what you’re saying Sis. but, somebody has to, or YOU would n’t be able to travel the streets, in safety!!!!
CP
It is more about who is holding the child as by her direction and her leaning she is not likely to be the bearer of children, so this picture can be seen as purely a political vote catching stunt, designed to alter her moraless image.
My congrats to David and the new government on involving the public in their swearing in and including the ecumenical service. I agree that it is a time for healing and there’s a need for Barbadians to once again find their social and moral compass.
One striking feature during the ceremony, as well as right after elections was a feeling of calm, peace, “family” and familiarity with persons around you. I hope that all of us follow this lead and give the new cabinet a chance and support them and one another.
I often hear talk of the “good old days” when “villages raised children” and “respect and values” were priorities. I hope we are now able with good open leadership to regain these ideals and hence balance our economic and financial progress with social and family stability. Otherwise we risk the chance of becoming like other “developed” yet corrupt and morally starved countries.
WIV, we all know that Mia HAS to alter her moralless image. The question is, given all that she has done and all that is known, can she really turn it around enough to make a push for PM in the next 5 years.
Remember, this is the same BLP that spent this and other campaigns “bashing” Thompson for his mistakes of 14-15 years ago. Time longer than twine.
‘Mixing politics with organized religion is a very slippery slope.’
PP, why do you believe that the state and religion has been mixed? From a service that a small fraction of the population attended? We really do give our imaginations too much exercise. One would think that we are going to have services every week.
The PM did the right thing. God is whatever you conceive him/her/it to be. “God” is function not name. I already said there is a school of thought which says that man created God.
I do not know how you can compartmentalise the different facets of your life. We live according to our own personal belief systems. Religion, politics, education, the environment we are reared in all play a part in our daily decision making. Hopefully good values are passed on from generation to generation through socialisation.
We seem to be in a real hurry to get to the end of the next five years on this blog. Change is a hard thing to manage eh? Had the BLP for 13 years and some and now can’t really envisage anybody else taking their place eh? LOL. They cushioned us you believe? So how come bicsuits almost triple in price while becoming greatly reduced in size?As for milk wow!
Cut the new government some slack. They ain’t even start yet. Count your 100 days from tomorrow and then cuss them out.
As for me, I rather take good advice where I can find it. Hard as nails to do ain’t it?
Wishing in Vain,
Even on Errol Barrow Day you are still behaving like a clown.
I see that you have been given a mention on one of those three new blogs which were launched today.
http://catpissandpepper.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/denis-kellman-speaks-out-exposes-blog-liars/
CP.
frankology // January 21, 2008 at 9:34 am
DID YOU HEAR THIS STATEMENT TOO>
The religious minister who preached, made a statement, might not be the exact words, but with the same implication. “Any changes made on earth, the same changes will be made in heaven”. What is he trying to say. Is he making fun with religion? I fail to understand why such a statement will be made in such a context during an occasion like yesterday.
frankology // January 21, 2008 at 9:42 am
David of BU, Thomas, Anonymous or PIEDPIPER did you hear that statement. What are your feelings about such a statement.
Frankology, I do not remember hearing it but some of us know, some of us believe and some of us have not the faintest clue ( u?) that whatever is released into the universe comes back to help or haunt us.
Ever heard that what goes around comes around, what you reap you will sow? You seem offended.
You do not know that there are consequences for everything? Ever heard about reincarnation? By heaven he only means that unseen portion of our universe. The supernatural. We make our future by our thoughts and our actions today.
I talking too much and you will probably still not understand what I am trying to say.
I am sure that the election results was a judgement, you may not see it that way but I do because I know it. You may ask me how and I would say you would have to go on that journey of knowledge for yourself.
Just know that there is much more to life than can be seen by the naked eye and you would have started on your journey.
To all the talking (writing) heads:
Consider this: “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it”. Conversely “if it is broke, fix it”
If all of you have better ways to go about it than the Honourable PM is choosing to do, then run for office…………..go for it!!!
Bimbro. You have a point there! And you all are doing a good job. Thanks
Bimbro // January 21, 2008 at 2:55 am
I re-iterate recent expressions of doubt about the wisdom of involving christianity too, closely in politics. Clearly, I’m not the only one who can see the danger of this:- quote from article above:
“Cynically the danger of this is an outward show of religion for political purposes”
Various pillars of society need to retain their independence of thought and expression which is n’t aided by ‘getting too, close to politicians’!
==============================
Bimbro, you being a resident of the UK , and i being a frequent visitor there, we can look at what occurs in the UK to prove whether your concerns are warranted. I must state that the approach of taking religion, out of the state as the UK and most of Europe has done, has not been a good one. The UK to my mind has become a wasteland of drunks, rowdyism, and naked tolerance for the things that will be there undoing. My last visit to London in June last year i witness a level of public intoxication that Owen Arthur would have been proud off and might have felt right at home in. All across Europe one can see what the results of the banishment of christianity have been, and when you match this banishment with the tolerance and open borders policies for muslims who’s religous faith is accepted you see the stupidy of the progressives that they to this day are in denial off. The British Pitbull has been tamed.
The church does little more than frowned on things that are against it’s teaching, the Church enters dialogue to change people’s perception, in the fine tradition of going out into the byways and highways to COMPEL men unto christ, there is no force acceptance, there are no legal penalties for ignoring their call. I say that there is a need for the chuch to be heard and for our youth to hear them, that they can be aware that there is a nother way life should they so choose.
CP
As much as you may not want to face the facts they really are only two blogs that persons refer to for sensible balanced views on politicis these are BU and BFP so my advice is to stick with these and get an education about politcal heartbeat of the nation.
WIV, we all know that Mia HAS to alter her moralless image. The question is, given all that she has done and all that is known, can she really turn it around enough to make a push for PM in the next 5 years.
When Barbados accepts someone such as the moraless mottley as the leader of this country the other options are really not good.
Listen when PM Thompson is finished, everyone will be ready for a PM Mia Mottley. Trust me. It will be Mia Mia Mia and Mia
I think the Anglican Church is dead in England, just look at what Pastor Matthew Shimoloway (sp) is doing in London with his Kingsway International Church, and in America, Bishop TD Jakes, and Prophetess Juanita Bynum. The Anglican Church is stale, it needs a Holiness Revivial or something to get it going. I am surprised that Anglicanism still holds sway in Barbados, because in other parts of our great home region it is Pentecostal Holiness. I am Methodist, but I love the Holiness Churches, the Church of God in Christ that is.
New // January 21, 2008 at 6:04 am
I doubt no doubt that Thompson is genuinely religous and a family man at heart. I think tho that knownst or unbeknownst to him he may have started the 2012/2013 campaign against Mia already. If all goes reasonably well till next election time then Mia will not stand chance against a religon but more so morals being stressed in the next campaign. Guess we will have to wait and see.
regards
==============================
I don’t know about Thompson being an overly religous person, but you are right election campaigning for 2013 has begun. I have always made the point that those who claim to be christians will be the biggest obsticle to the realization of a PM Mia Mottley. She is aware of it, in Deacons farm during the election she spoke at length about Thompson always in church, having somebody praying for him etc. She know that her smoking, her love of dub fetes and other bashment entertainment, coupled with the perception of who she really is (a lesbian) will be a tall order for a bajan electorate to swollow and to vote for a party that she leads. The picture that BU referred too, and the view that she will look to get married in an attempt to silence the homo perception and to address the issue morality and presentabilty to the electors of Barbados are not far fetch. She will attempt to fight who she is, and what she really loves in a naked grab for power. I expect the pressure on her to be so intense that i wonder if an already unhealthy Mia Mottley will survive. In a real sense i really do.
…….It was rumoured Chris Sinkcler and the DLP shadowed Owen and Clydie in Deacons thwarting their efforts to by votes.
I do expect for picture evidence and a much closer scrutiny of Mia in an effort to produce the evidence that will transform the perception that she is set to fight, …into irreversible truth. If successfull she will be doomed and to my mind Barbados will be saved from the embarressment of her being it’s leader. 😀
Wunna living real fast though. People die, get sick or incapacitated, lose interest, any number of things. How wunna get there already? You know how long 24 hours can be? Ask somebody with a relative in ICU.
I would strongly recommend the book “God is Not Great – How Religion Poisons Everything” by Christopher Hitchens, thats if you can obtain the book in Barbados and it hasn’t been banned/blocked by the uptight religious faction that seem to have much of Barbados in a stranglehold. I was a fence sitter in regards to religion until I read this book which, from a scientific and historic point of view demonstrates how religion no longer has a place in the modern world and that the very foundations of religious belief were built on ever shifting sands if not outright quicksand.
One “Anonymous” asks how I can seperate the tenents of religion from everyday life……it is quite simple. I do not need a “Holy book”, a minister, rabbi, imman or Church to tell me what is good and conscionable behavior towards my fellow man or what is in the best interests for society as a whole. To surrender to religion, is to accept that mankind has not moved forward over the millenia and still remains in ignorance about “natural events” that we now accept as commonplace along with the scientific explanations.
CP
I like the way that you are give YOUR blog free publicity. Not interested though.
Adrian Hinds There was a team of about five DLP faithfuls that made Owen and ASSCOLL abort their money giveaways, they are some wonderful pictures of the event as well.
It even had Owen asking why are you all following me around please give me some privacy please.
It was a most uncivilised act in a civilised nation, the blp can only blame its self for these outcomes of men and women sitting on street corners with hands extended waiting for handouts of cash because they statred the pay for votes system in places like the Farm etc , they have kept the people in need and suffering and then are willing to pass around once every five years giving out cash disburstments of monies ranging from $ 100.00 to as much as $ 800.00 as was seen in the Farm.
These thug like actions of ASSCOLL, ARTHUR and his clan of crooks must be brought to a halt for all of our security.
http://www.nationnews.com/temporaryimages/bp52156.jpg
ha ha ha ha ha During the Election David Thompson stated that Mothers all across barbados should be concern as their daughters are at risk to Mia Bite me Mottley. This picture is most likely to say to Thompy in your face. 😀
….I wonder if she was also saying, See i will have a fresh supply of girls to feast on and to satisfy my fetish. 😀 and don’t ask how a mother could knowingly do this, we have already acknowledge mothers allowing big able men to pay them to have their way with their children. Anybody can honestly mistake Mia for a man. 😀
…..But Mia why it had to be a lil girl? you afraid a lil boys too?
PP, I admit it.
You have lost me. Where did your values come from? I put it to you that you were taught by someone with the said values in the Bible or the Koran or the Upanishads or whatever.
No man is an island therefore you are being impacted upon and are being informed by the stuff that goes on around you in no small measure.
You may insist that you do not need this or that, but I am putting it to you that you have already been infected by something (socialised?) and no matter where you go, from here on out you are living by your code which has been formed.
You seem to be denigrating religion as a whole. In some instances it has been used as an excuse for some really terrible deeds and in some it has caused much progress for the human race.
But which ever way you want it you can have it since I love you any way. That is my code.
One “Anonymous” asks how I can seperate the tenents of religion from everyday life……it is quite simple. I do not need a “Holy book”, a minister, rabbi, imman or Church to tell me what is good and conscionable behavior towards my fellow man or what is in the best interests for society as a whole. To surrender to religion, is to accept that mankind has not moved forward over the millenia and still remains in ignorance about “natural events” that we now accept as commonplace along with the scientific explanations.
=============================
Who is talking about surrendering to Religion? are we talking about modern christianity? Or Christianity of old and the unchanged Islamic teachings? When i read these anti-Religous books with main points set agains christianity and the comments from it’s readers and believers i always have to ask what christian era is this book set in? It can’t be the current one oh but it is discussinq RELIGION then it must be discussing what is Islam today.
Here is what the Constitution of Barbados says about the matter:
Now, therefore, the people of Barbados
(a) proclaim that they are a sovereign nation founded upon principles that acknowledge the supremacy of God, the dignity of the human person, their unshakeable faith in fundamental human rights and freedoms, the position of the family in a society of free men and free institutions;
(b) affirm their belief that men and institutions remain free only when freedom is founded upon respect for moral and spiritual values and the rule of law;
(c) declare their intention to establish and maintain a society in which all persons may, to the full extent of their capacity, play a due part in the institutions of the national life;
(d) resolve that the operation of the economic system shall promote the general welfare by the equitable distribution of the material resources of the community, by the human conditions under which all men shall labour and by the undeviating recognition of ability, integrity and merit;
I suspect that the vast majority of Barbadians would support these principles, including acknolwedging the supremacy of God (even if they do not fully live them in their daily lives).
So until we change the Constitution, the supremacy of God is one of the founding principles of our nation.
I agree though that religion is a different matter. We can get into very interesting discussions about religion but hopefully most of us will agree that there are certain fundamental values that must guide our lives. If we do not place these at the centre of our existence, individually and as a nation, then we are lost.
Dear David,
You say that you and the BU household do not know a system of morals and codes outside organised religion. I think you will find on deeper investigation that this is not right. (Perhaps you need to enlist the help of Peter Wickham to exam the moral code of the 30 people who go to church least….)
Many women and men of great morals and ethics are part of organised religion and many are not. A few western moralists who moved away from organised religion, that come immediately to mind, were Bertrand Russell, Albert Einstein, Julien Huxley, Issac Asimov and George Santanyana. These people did not adhere to organised religion, but they were far from amoral. I am sure if you think about it you will know of others.
I beg to suggest that you would have to have a very dim view of humanity if you felt that people only did the “right thing” because they were told what was right by their priest. Doing right because you are told to, or out of fear of how God would respond, does not seem to be a moral position to me.
The story of the Mahabharata, an epic 400BC story of a battle presents a moral debate between a morality based on the consequences of human actions and a morality based on duties. It is one of the great moral debates of humanity and takes place outside organised religion.
It would seem to me that moral government is about government that does not try to mislead the public, does not further the interests of members of the government at the expense of the country, does not practice favouritism, and is concerned with protecting the most vulnerable in society. Moral government means other things too, but my point is that this simple morality for government does not exclude people who do not attend my church, does not depend on organised religion, and is not unchristian or unIslam or unHindu or other. It is a code of morality for government that most Barbadians would sign up to whichever church they attend. Let us not needlessly bring organised religion into government if we do not need to as it will only serve to divide and exclude rather than heal and unite.
Warmest Regards, Thomas
Anonymous, for the record, I am not denigrating religion nor am I an Athiest. I prefer to have an open mind that allows the possibility of other opinions, ideas and beliefs. Just because I recommended a book that has explored the negative aspects of religion does not mean that I endorse all of the author’s views.
If you look at my previous post I merely stated that I don’t believe that Religion and Politics should get into bed together.
Funny you should state that PP when as recently as the last blp administration we had a supposely minister of a church Atherley serving as a minister of gov’t and of church.
It does not any more mixed up that that does it?
Although I was not fortunate enough, to witness the swearing in ceremony at Kensington Oval, I believe that there was a significance to it, beyond the religious aspect.
The statement was being made, that we have had a change, and the change in not only a change of Government, but a change in the way we do things. The ceremony was to mark a new beginning, and so important was this to the new administration, it had to be under-scored by a public demonstration of intent.
There is always a possible danger, of tying any administration too closely to religious fervour. However in this case, it can be excused, as the last administration strayed so far from what the citizens of our country wanted – confirmed by the general election results – that a public demonstration had to be done, that had a resonance with the Barbadian population, and in Barbados “religion” was the best way of underscoring that change.
David i think the title of your article is misleading people into thinking that Thompson will make christianity a state religion, or something to the effect. 😀 You have no idea how people can and how quickly they can “TIME PORT” back to an era in human history where points will be most valid.
…….What Thompson has done to date is symbolic only. What Thompson has done is too, and inspite of what some are willing to say is to remind Barbadians about the importants of moral, and standards, and other codes of living and ways of life that has stood the test of time and that at their core beginning was the result of religion. That we now have a disconnect from reglion yet these codes are still with us has demonstrate that yes one does not absolutely need religion to live by these codes. My own observation is religious teachings of these codes are better accepted by kids and as we know whatever the way a child is trained up it hardly ever departs from it in it’s entirety. Therefore in the minds of most people and is probably the reslut of PP and Thomas interventions religion is characterize by these codes amongst otherthings of course, but religion brings into sharp focus these codes and way of life that we all agree are important. Why use a progressive concept to teach that which religion by it’s very nature brings out in it’s teachings?
Adrian H your observation is correct. We thought about the correct title to use to provoke comment and we decided to stay with words which evoke passion i.e.religion instead of spirituality and the idea of integrating Church and State which is a taboo in our pluralistic societies.
We use title as a carrot sometimes more so than to convey content. We are also mindful of the key words which the search engines latch on to 🙂
Yardbroom, there are two sets of naysayers here to Thompson’s approach. There are the anti-religious who cannot ever seem to be as fervent in denouncing Islam as they are Christianity, religion is religion is it not? and they are those who will just want to be partisan and deny any potential gain this approach gave to the DLP……But both camps were noticeably absent when Owen Arthur sought to remake himself in the image of a religious, godly, principle, and moral man, not a peek out of anyone when we had a practicing, license, man of God the right reverend Joeseph Atherly as a member of parliament and a Minister of government in the most recent past parliament of Barbados not a word not a peak. The arguments and concerns to-date on what Thompson has done to my mind are not genuine, and where the argument against religion is valid, that argument does fit to what the DLP has done to-date.
Sister Baby // January 21, 2008 at 10:28 am
Listen when PM Thompson is finished, everyone will be ready for a PM Mia Mottley. Trust me. It will be Mia Mia Mia and Mia
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Thanks for the prediction. Can you also tell us your prediction of where Guyana will when that time comes?
I think it speaks well, to have the swearing in ceremony done in public, it reconnects with all barbadians, gone are those days when everything seem to be off limits to the people of this country as far as the former government is concern, they thought could do as they like with out any accountability believing they own barbados….it is a stark reminder that the electorate will make u humble in your arrogance…
Thomas you certainly have us stretched with the obvious knowledge you have on the subject of morals, ancient history and the like. We in no way wished to extend exclusivity to high moral behaviour being the preserve of Christians. The concern which we have with the examples you forwards does not move us from our initial position. David as leader of a country must find a way to provoke the MASSES to embrace a code of behavior which is manageable for the government given the social implications. So far we think by our observation that Christianity has worked well for Barbados. If we have to move to a hybrid form of belief/doctrine to keep pace with a changing society, so be it.
To Adrian Hinds, if you say so regarding Mia, that is when morality will be thrown out the windowand anything goes !! god forbid!!
Adrian Hinds
Your points were well made, I acknowledge your response.
Let me recomend a book as well. 😀
The politics of Deviance by Anne Hendershott
Hendershott book is a sobering examination of both the moral confusion that shrouds deviant behaviour from proper scrutiny and opprobrium, and the moral panics that lead us to imagin deviant behaviour everywhere.
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Until the 1960s, sociologists had asserted that a willingness to identify deviance, or what constitutes appropriate behavior, was indispensable to the process of generating and sustaining cultural values, clarifying moral boundaries, and promoting social solidarity. Yet today, after three decades of lacerating debate, shifts in values and social relations, and questioning social authority, the subject has virtually disappeared from sociology’s radar screen. Deviance, in the famous phrase of Daniel Patrick Moynihan, has been “dumbed down.”
In The Politics of Deviance, Anne Hendershott, a leading sociologist herself, tries to understand how this major change in the way we see our world occurred. How did we adopt such different views of human nature and personal responsibility? How did we “medicalize” what was once proscribed behavior? While in the past there was a moral consensus that conditioned our attitudes toward teenage sex, suicide, substance abuse, and other questionable behaviors, Hendershott points out that today it is pressure groups that define and redefine deviance. (”As I write these words,” she says at one point in the narrative, “the advocacy of the North American Man-Boy Love Association is invisibly changing the way we see pedophilia.”) As they succeed in redefining our attitudes toward their “clients,” these groups significantly altered our view of each other and of our world.
Arguing against the grain of her own discipline, Anne Hendershott asserts the value and strength of the most important of all determinants of behavior–social norms and the commitment to accept them. The Politics of Deviance maintains that definitions of deviance that rely upon reason, and not emotion or political advocacy, are indispensable to the process of generating and sustaining cultural values and reaffirming the moral ties that bind us together.
Excerpts:
http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/politicsofdeviance/?display=excerpt
lubrication // January 21, 2008 at 12:11 pm
I think it speaks well, to have the swearing in ceremony done in public, it reconnects with all barbadians, gone are those days when everything seem to be off limits to the people of this country as far as the former government is concern, they thought could do as they like with out any accountability believing they own barbados….it is a stark reminder that the electorate will make u humble in your arrogance…
==============================
It certainly is a step beyond the people’s involvment in the process which until then was confined to the voting booth. Next unto the parish conucils, which must not be an extention of the political party constituency office, and where a good mix of party members (both parties) and independent membship should be strived for, in addition to strict recording and reporting of financing is emphasized and quick and harsh judgement and punishment is exercise when such reporting and adherence is not followed.
David, Thomas knowledge of history and position of what pertains in Barbados today bares little relevance to each other. In the least it is difficult to link the too in a way that we can convincingly conclude on a way forward. Take a look at Anne Hendershott’s book. It talks about social agencies given the power to shape people’s identities, behavior and lifestyle.
…….Few people understand consumerism, in it’s traditional use of marketing the need to purchase some retail product of service, this same phenomenon is used to sell us on these nouvo ideas by post 1960 sociologist (in a Barbados context Ikeal tafari) on why we need to “define down” our pre 1960 views on a host of things like “Homosexuality, teenage pregnancy, Alcoholism etc.
David said: So far we think by our observation that Christianity has worked well for Barbados. If we have to move to a hybrid form of belief/doctrine to keep pace with a changing society, so be it.
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On the whole I would agree with you David but it has been my experience that there is a certain amount of hypocracey as it pertains to Christianity in Barbados. One only has to take the Ten Commandments and see how they fit into the day to day lives of many Bajans. In a country where “horning” is considered a national sport right up there next to cricket (and very frequently where both parties are married to others), where greed leads to the envy of the success of others and is denigrated, thievery of all sorts including by those elected to be protectors of the public purse……….
One does not need religion to know that these things are wrong. Morality has evolved out of the need to have a functioning, peaceful and progressive society free of strife and turmoil.
Sister Baby // January 21, 2008 at 10:12 am
Bimbro. You have a point there! And you all are doing a good job. Thanks
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That’s perfectly, ok, Sis & have a nice day!
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Adrian, congrats on being a reasonably, frequent visitor to these shores. It will surprise you that, in essense, I agree with much of what you say. I guess that Britain is past the point of any redemption. And, you’ll be surprised to learn that I think, as you suggested, it is largely, because of the god-forsaken former PM, Blair and his failure to acknowledge any kind of christian faith, while he was in power, because ‘it would make him look silly’!!!! Now, he claims to be the biggest christian in the world. I can’t tell u what I think about him because I’d have to use too, many expletives.
Adrian, the real point I was making is that, I don’t want to go to church on a Sunday and be treated to a ‘politicalj-sermon’!!!!
I’ve nothing against the head of the church uttering an opinion here and there on how the country’s going but I certainly, would n’t want to hear him/them, everyday! I want to reserve my loathing for the politicians, not the people who’re supposed to be responsible for the cleanliness of my soul!!!!
Adrian, it’s a pity that your accurate, perceptiveness of the British situation does n’t extend to understanding the undermining, effect of the Jamaicans! 🙂
Adrian:
You are right on the money.
Reading excerpts from “The Politics of Deviance” that is where the majority of the “free” world has been going for some time now.
Going back to my statement a few hours ago, many things “were not broke” some 30-40 years ago but the “intelligentia” set out to prove that they could do it better.
Now we see the harvest being reaped.
It is indeed time for change.
Sister Baby // January 21, 2008 at 10:28 am
Listen when PM Thompson is finished, everyone will be ready for a PM Mia Mottley. Trust me. It will be Mia Mia Mia and Mia
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Sis, let’s pray, not!!!!
Sis, don’t be deceived by those african churches in the UK. Anywhere there’s money to be made you’ll find an african, only too, willing, whatever the subject is good or evil!!!!
Adrian, u does read dem books???? To me dey doan have nuh moah sense to speak dan u or me!!!!
Bimbro: I am willing to assume that you go church of your own free will. But tell me what would you if you turn on your television or radio and heard Jamaicans justifying the things that you have accused them of? You would turn them off right? If the sermon in church is not to your liking you have several options don’t you?
David: as PP may have suggested in her recent reply, some people cannot justify what they have read. Christianity is or should i say, ….should be characterize by it’s rules as contained in the Bible, and not the by the looking at the short commings of it’s profess adherants and followers, for to err is human. This difference between the rules/commandments and the actions of those say they adhere to them can be found in all human endevours, whether it is free masons, political parties, or the local football club. The argument is still to be made as to what is the best vehicle for teaching, Morality , and peace free of strife and turmoil. The catch 22 for the anti religious is how to teach christian to be tolerant while they are insensitive and intolerant to christian teachings. The truth is that both groups are tolerant and intolerant on different things.
Bimbro, and my stage of existance, and experience i hardly read a book with a blank slate. I for the most part bring questions, and convictions, to the task, and the book’ss author had better be able to bring reason, in addition to the truth that reality often is, for me to replace my questions with his/her answers and put down my convictions and pick up their opinions. 😀 But if Socraties could have been recorded to say that he knows that he knows little, who am i to say otherwise?
Bimbro: I am willing to assume that you go church of your own free will. But tell me what would you if you turn on your television or radio and heard Jamaicans justifying the things that you have accused them of? You would turn them off right? If the sermon in church is not to your liking you have several options don’t you?
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Adrian, as Sister Baby said, I doan go to church, ‘to have my pressure raise’!!!! Lord!!!! 🙂
Ok, Ad, let’s wish Thompy a successful, administration!!!
Regards!
God, give us men!
GOD, give us men! A time like this demands
Strong minds, great hearts, true faith and ready hands;
Men whom the lust of office does not kill;
Men whom the spoils of office can not buy;
Men who possess opinions and a will;
Men who have honor; men who will not lie;
Men who can stand before a demagogue
And damn his treacherous flatteries without winking!
Tall men, sun-crowned, who live above the fog
In public duty, and in private thinking;
For while the rabble, with their thumb-worn creeds,
Their large professions and their little deeds,
Mingle in selfish strife, lo! Freedom weeps,
Wrong rules the land and waiting Justice sleeps.
Josiah Gilbert Holland
Hi Bimbro, All day Sunday I am sending praises up to the Lord, be it at church, watching TV or listening to my gospel CD’s. I love Pastor Matthew Shomololo, and look how the Lord has led him to London to redeem and bring Jesus to the lives of hundreds of thousands of Londoners. Another favourite of mine is Prophetess Jaunita Bynum, I tell you that girl has the annointing, and when she preaches I become overwhelmed with Holiness. Now Prophetess Juanita Bynum is related to me. I can feel it, because she reminds me of my maternal grandmother. Prophetess Juanita Bynum is a former PAN AM stewardess who got the calling when PAN AM closed down. The Lord closed down a great airline so that this woman of God could get the calling and save us from sin. Prophetess placed her hands on the globe and asked the Lord to direct her to a land of heathens and sin, and would you believe that when the globe stopped spining the country that her hands were on was Trinidad. So you see the Lord works in myterious ways.
Adrian, Only Jesus knows where Guyana will be in 2013. Jesus is the answer for Guyana. The President needs to give his heart to the Lord, because any man that would divorce his wife and then take away her motor car and let the poor woman walk around Georgetown is man deep in the grips of the devil. Have a nice night!
Well done, Mr. Thompson!
I am very pleased that you have started your term with prayers.
May the Good Lord bless and guide both you and your government as you draft the new Integrity Legislation Bill!
The following comments were reported by David Comissiong in the Nation today
“This is a development we would like to deprecate and we would like to warn all political leaders about the dangers of what we call the privatisation of God,” he said.
“God is not on the side of any particular political party, of any particular government. God belongs to all of the people of Barbados . . . . “I think that a political leader is on very dangerous ground when he seeks to appropriate God to his particular political party or to suggest that God willed a result that favoured his political party.”
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Whereas it is true that “God is not on the side of any particular political party, of any particular government” it is also true that it is recorded in Romans 13:1 that THE POWERS THAT BE ARE ORDAINED OF GOD. That is the real meaning of the statement that the voice of the people (at election time in the ballot room) is the voice of God. So no one is errant in thinking that a particular result of an election is God’s will.
For instance, many think that a certain president is a jackass of the highest order. But clearly God put him there so that the joker could engage in the anti- Semitism that he has that is clearly assisting in the fulfillment of many of the prophecies surrounding the second advent of Christ.
We all know that we don’t deserve the least of His favors, but God smiled on Bajans once more when he delivered us out of the clutches of OS,Arthur, Ms Bitemuh and others in the election last week. You better believe David C that God had a lot to do with that, and with the position in which you are today.
This is the first time that I have followed Barbados politics so closely, including its election results and the swearing in of the new government cabinet. As an outsider, looking in it was an eye opener. My interest was peak when I started to read two of the islands more popular blogs, Barbados Underground and Barbados Free Press. Thanks to these blogs for sharing with me and so many others what they have and will continue to uncover about many hidden activities.
Their investigative reporting have exposed the good, the bad and the indifferent about what is going on especially in Bim; covering its private citizens, the political parties, individuals within both parties — the doings of the former leader and his cronies and those of the current leader and his cohorts, as well as other neighboring countries, and sometimes touching on international issues that could and at times bring Barbados into the mix, such as the infamous 3S scandal.
These blogs print what the mainstream media houses fail to report. They go to the depth of publishing what we, as a people, need to know, what is nice to know, and at times extraneous information. However, with the success and rave reviews of these two blogs, their articles help to reinforce that the voices are no longer silent but speaking out.
Thanks again BU and BFP. Your efforts are very much appreciated.
I find the comments by Georgie Porgie deeply disturbing.
According to Georgie Porgies logic, everything is God’s will, so we should thank God for David Thompson. Fine. But does that mean that Owen Arthur beating Thompson twice before was God’s will and Georgie Porgie thanked God for that? Was slavery, genocide and apartheid God’s will? If so, my God must be different from Georgie Porgie’s.
I thank (my) God for giving us Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela, people who believed that what was being done in God’s name was not the will of a just and loving God. And that they must do something about it or it would remain so.
Georgie Porgie’s conclusion that the President must be there so that he can be anti-semitic is also deeply disturbing. There can be no justification for this kind of racism and Barbadians should be ashamed to have such racism in our midst.
If you will look back at the writings of the salve owners, you will find that they felt slavery could only be possible if it was God’s will and they erected churches in Barbados to thank God for it. They spoke in the name of the Lord, but they did so falsely and in their own narrow interests.
David C is right about this (and I did not vote for him) that no one should seek to privatise the Lord for their narrow interests and we as a people should object to that.
I find the comments by Georgie Porgie deeply disturbing.
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You can be disturbed as much as you like. Theologians recognize the direct will of God, and God’s permissive will. I did not give you my logic, I gave you the word of God. There are things that God permits which we do not understand…..like slavery, genocide and apartheid…. and many other things. And yes they hurt like hell. And yes they are not fair either. I have been there Sir!.
Some of the things that he puts in our lives, James calls trials or testings in James chapter 1. 1st Peter speaks also a lot on sufferings and the fiery trials of our faith. I don’t have the answer for these things. I don’t have the answers for the things that I have had to go through especially in the last six years, but I know that God must permit them because he is in charge.
When Owen Arthur beat Thompson twice before that was God’s will then just as David Thompson’s recent win is God’s will now. I am not seeking to privatise the Lord for my narrow interests, since the ascendancy of none of these men to power has enhanced me in any way.
Commisiong and you have both wrongly divided the word of truth; and you choose to misunderstand what I said, so that you can be disturbed. So be disturbed.
I agree with you that Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela, were people who believed that what was being done in God’s name was not the will of a just and loving God, and that they must do something about it or it would remain so. You will note that in the case of Mandela, he became the power that be according to the tenet of Romans 13:1 in God’s perfect time. He went from the prison to the palace just as Joseph did.
God permitted Tyndale to be murdered for translating the Bible to English, but he also permitted his dying words to come to pass when he muttered “God open the eyes of the king of England!” And so we have the King James Version of the Bible still going strong since 1611.
I don’t care about the writings or the beliefs of the slave owners or any one else who wrongly divided the Word of truth for their own means. I quoted correctly the scriptures which states that the powers that be are ordained of God; whether we agree with that power or not. And I did so knowing the related scriptures on the matter also.
As to the issue of the wacky President, it is quite clear that he has made many anti-Semitic decisions which are clearly wrong. I never said he was right, because the consequences of his decisions have already affected the US, just as certain wrong anti-Semitic decisions by the British in 1918 affected Britishs world domination in the last century. My point is that just as God permitted the fall of British domination, that he permitted the ascent of
the wacky President knowing full well that he would make the anti-Semitic decisions that would tilt the balance of power towards the European nations (whom theologians believe to be the ten toes of the image of Nebeuchadnezzer as recorded in Daniel chaps 2 & 7.
I believe, like many theologians that the wacky twit prevailed in the elections of 2004 to be used of God to turn the balance of power to set up the events that will result in Armageddon and the second phase of the second coming of Christ. I do not understand it all. But I know that God moves in the affairs of men. And you can be as disturbed as you like. I said what I like and what I know and I like what I said. I wrote in perfect English, and there was not one racist remark made.
For a deeper understanding of eschatological issues I would refer you Sir the Dwight Pentecost’s treatise on the subject…. THINGS TO COME.
Run up again. You know about finance. I know the Word.77
Commisiong is wrong. Thompson is the power that be for now. He is God’s servant now. If he plays the fool he will become like Samson—- and wist not that the spirit of the Lord had been taken from him in the exact way that Owen found out last week.
Thank you Georgie Porgie for taking the time to respond. You have made my point better than I could and I rest my case.
By the way, please note, when quoting word of God” a word of advice taken from Thomas Jefferson, writing to his nephew:
“I forgot to observe, when speaking of the New Testament that you should read all the histories of Christ, [there are 12 gospels that we know of] as well as those whom a council of ecclesiastics have decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named the Evangelists. Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration, as much as the others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not by the reason of those ecclesiastics.”
To forsake reason is to be truly lost.
Warmest Regards and Good Night, Thomas.
Again Mr G, Thomas Jefferson might have been a politician, but he was not a theologian.And his quotation is of no value since it disregards the teachings of Canonicity, and the preservation of the NT.
And yes I do agree with the points you made in your last note. True men should always agree on the truth.
GP two points:
Your views against David Commissiong’s views on Thompson’s as David Commisiong puts it, “his privatization of God”, is well reasoned, but you had a similar view to that of David Commissiong as you opined on the singing the hymnal “You raise me up” in reference to Owen Arthur who at the time was the last person serving in the office of the PM.
2: Your argument against David Commissiong was on point where you made mention that the voice of the people during an election result is the voice of God, you erred in my opinion when you suggest that the PM was elected by the people which is the voice of God, and thereby becomes ordained by God.
Not your fault but until the people can directly vote for a Leader, the leader of Barbados cannot fit into the reasoned process you have defined.
The real truth is that 20 people solidified what the DLP general assembly gave birth too, and that’s how Thompson became the PM, not via the voice of God/people.
Adrian Hinds
Thanks for your kind remarks
However, I don’t remember opining on the singing of the hymn “You raise me up” in reference to OAS, even though I think it wreaked of blasphemy.
With respect to your second point, I understand your view and understand what you are saying, but the popular “vox populi vox dei est” is the same as Romans 13:1 in my view.
Although as you correctly state, that in our electoral system one does not vote for the PM per se, the accepted system does in fact elect him indirectly. In this way the people spoke. And in this way all 30 representatives were chosen. That is vox populi – the voice of the people according to our accepted electoral system.
Romans 13:1 expressly states that God influences or permits the setting up the powers that be. Consequently what ever electoral system is used God speaks – vox dei. In the last election, I believe that God moved the people, or He influenced the will of the people in the way they voted. I think He spoke very loudly as the elections were called and as the campaign went forward.
From my position where I had access only to the online newspapers, and latterly the blogs, it became obvious to me from opinions expressed by the people that God was indeed speaking. His “voice” became louder still through that of the people when OSA made the dumb statements that Bajans (even Bees present at the speech) interpreted correctly
I stand by the common interpretation of Romans 13:1 held by reputable theologians and Bible scholars, and substantiated by the NT Greek.
Ok fair enough, i guess the real test will come if the people are ask to decide the fate of a BLP lead my MIA. If she becomes the Prime Minister in her current unrepentent state would you be so willing to say that she was elected by the will of God? 😀
Adrian
Remember that I said previously that theologians and Bible scholars point out that there is a direct will of God, and there is a permissive will. God certainly in his direct will does not sanction sin of any kind including homosexuality as is clearly set out in Romans 1: 26& 27 thus For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
However, it is clear that he permits it, because he has not destroyed you and I or our aquaintences for our pet sins what ever they may be (e.g extracurricular sex wid de outside woman). It does not mean that he condones it. He permits it so that we can have time to repent according to the truths set out in 2 Peter 3:9 which points out that “The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise to return, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to perish, so he is giving more time for everyone to repent.”
In like manner, he does not condone Mia’s biting according to his direct will as set out in his word, but permits it in his permissive will to give her time to repent. And she might very well repent and change.
So although I do not wish Mia to lead Barbados at any time ever, if she becomes the Prime Minister in her current unrepentent state I would have to agree that she was elected by the permissive will of God, yes.
You have to remember too, that other Barbadians leaders and Barbadians including you and I are not without sin(even though they or we do not bite). Also it might just happen that by then God might just give us as a people up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts Romans 1:24 or he might give us up unto vile affections Romans 1:26, or he might gave us over to a reprobate mind Romans 1:28. We cant escape for ever.
I realize that is not what we might like to hear, and you might not agree with me but that is what the word says, and that is a consistent interpretation of the relevant Scriptures, if we accept this as the guide for faith and practice.
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