Submitted by Wayne Cadogan
The time has come and has been long overdue for the revamping of the West Indies Cricket Board and its band of myopic nomadic members, whose purpose is to splurge off of West Indies cricket for their own personal gains and to keep West Indies cricket a submerged state in the cricketing world. It is quite clear that the Board is out of control and is not accountable to no one but themselves. With the latest episode of the firing of Darren Sammy as captain and player of the 20/20 team, who has been the most successful captain in recent years and who had held the team together at a time when there was no discipline or order among the players?
Since the Board is not accountable to the governments of the region and does not acknowledge any of the recommendations put forth by them, then it is up the people of the Caribbean to boycott the cricket, by not attending the games. The boycott in 1992 sent a strong message to the Board then and was very successful in bringing changes to the game. It is rather clear that the Board is using strong arm tactics to control the cricket, players and coaches that do not conform or follow their regime will not be tolerated by axing them.
It would appear that the Board does not subscribe to any player or coach who is out spoken and feels threatened by their actions to stand up for the players. In recent years, the Board has seen it fit to purge themselves of any players, coaches or selectors who went against the grain. One can see clearly that it is the Boards intentions not to tolerate anyone who is out spoken and only surround themselves with “YES” men that they can control. Over the years, there has been a number of ex test cricketers the Board has distance themselves from and continue to do so, because they are very out spoken and no nonsense individuals like the Brian Lara’s and Sir Vivian Richards to name a few, all who can make a valuable contributions to West Indies cricket. As recent as this year, the Board rid itself of it’s out spoken Chairman of Selectors Clive Lloyd and replace him with a “YES” man and Lloyd in turn given the newly created post of Special Ambassador.
There have been too many controversies and embarrassments over the years in West Indies cricket by the current Board and it is high time that this band of self imposing radicals be curtailed from office, in order for West Indies cricket to rise again to its glory days. Since the governments of the Caribbean or any of its committees that were selected to formulate a path forward for West Indies cricket, does not have the fangs to bring about changes within the Board to any of the recommendations that they put forward, then the people of the Caribbean has to stand up to the Board. It’s the people that have the power in their hands to force the Board hand in implementing changes to the way it does its business, by not supporting the gates when the West Indies team is playing in their individual territories. If there are no spectators, then there is no money going through the turnstiles, then the Board would have to change their way of running the board, that is, if they are truly interested in West Indies cricket rising from the ashes and not their own personal goals.
As long as I can remember there have been disgruntled fans complaining about autocratic, irresponsible behavior by the WICB and its selection committee. It is futile to call for boycotts, but I wish the entire West Indies cricket team could be disbanded.
We cannot compete. When I was a kid, Test matches against India and Pakistan were a walk in the park. Today, lowly India, which cannot win an Olympic gold medal in any sport despite its HUGE population, is beating the West Indies in nearly every match. How much humiliation can we take. Please stop the punishment.
We do not support nothing SO CALLED WEST INDIES , CARIBBEAN YES,
all to us is a COMPANY from Europe , We need a CC or Caribbean Team . Own by US,
With all due respect, it i time for our non playing captain Sammy to retire to his cricket ground in Gros Islet. He never could command a play either as a batsman or a bowler, and served only to disrupt the balance of the team.
He had his time. Let us thank him for his service, give him a watch and an arm chair and as they say “put him out to pasture.” Next!
Violet
You have a point….Cricket Caribbean and expanded to include The Dutch,French and Spanish seeking Caribbean islands,Venezuela,Colombia and Central America bordering the Caribbean Sea.We might just manage to bring some stability to Venezuela.
I can’t believe anyone who saw Sammy bat or bowl in the last T20 World Cup in India felt he would retain a place in the team. The next T20 World Cup will be 2018 at the earliest and the W.I. have to start building a team for that and future competitions. Australia axed 27 year old Glenn Maxwell for lack of performance and he took responsibility, why couldn’t Sammy do the same.
Bajan in NY August 5, 2016 at 11:26 PM #
Please kindly note that WINDIES & INDIA will play 2 T 20’s in Lauderhill FL at the end of this month
Bajan in NY and others, you are all missing the point. It is not about Sammy playing, its all about the inept Board than controls West Indies! The firing of Sammy is just the straw that broke the camels back, with Sammy or no Sammy, the Board is destroying West Indies cricket. So please look beyond the Sammy issue!
@ Wayne, you have to look at the Sammy issue from a cricketing point of view and ask yourself if he can earn a place in the team ahead of Andre Russell, Kieron Pollard, Carlos Brathwaite, Dwayne Bravo and Jason Holder.
I don’t know what bullshit Georgie Porgie is talking……you are going to drop Sammy….for Carlos Brathwaite to captain the team?…Sammy the most successful captain of any West Indies team since Viv Richards!!!!!….Sammy may have been an average player….but made up for it as captain….If you are going to discipline him…fine him….but dropping him is just drastic right now…..and then replacing him with Carlos…..what has Carlos done to deserve the captaincy???!!!….you make him captain..and like Jason Holder you place him under great pressure to perform as a player and as a captain…which is not easy for an experienced player far-less a neophyte
The only thing that needs to be “put out to pasture is the Board”…it has outlived its usefulness because it is destroying West Indies Cricket from the inside out…..Then this asinine selection policy of “developing for the future” over selecting the strongest team AVAILABLE is just stupid…..it is turning the Test team into a A Team with a bunch of youngsters than have not proven themselves properly in first class cricket. These inexperienced youngsters get humiliated and the selectors expect them to win in the future!!!!…it is trial by fire..use the A team to filter out the best “performing” players and then use them to fill available places in the Test team proper!!!!…picking players on potential over stats makes little sense as if they cant even perform in West Indies first class cricket…they sure as hell cannot perform( at least consistently) again the likes of Australia, England or India….STOP using the West Indies test team as an A’ Team!!!!
We are glad certain people are now coming to an unavoidable conclusion
What is wrong with cricket extends to the rest of the elites
other spheres of society
Cricket is mere metaphor for everything else
Who is calling for that kind of transformation in the rest of society and urgently?
Some say better late than never
Not so!
When you are small countries you must, amongst other things, be agile
see the future before the inevitable appears
and take actions consistent with vision
We have fired so many Captains through the years, some of them our best performing players. Obviously there is an expectation that ALL players should be performing but why break up a winning outfit. Sammy’s role as a leader can be compared to Mike Bearly. Sammy was able to lead a group of assorted players, a few with large egos to achieve success in the most popular form of the game Twenty 20. What concerns BU is the Board through Chairman Browne calling Sammy to inform him in a 30 second phone call his services will no longer be required. After SIX years! Disrespect and primitive marshalling of human resources.
The problem with WI cricket extends many miles away from the players.
@Wayne Cadogan, for a man who at this stage of life must truly be a learned counselor of all things Bajan and WI cricket your remarks re Sammy are very distressing,
Others have said it quite accurately above that Darren had lost his effectiveness as a slugger and effective option bowler. That was crystal clear between this recent tournament and the previous one. He is not like Maxwell, as one blogger noted, who can be dropped for poor form, regain his touch and be back in a few years…he does not have that time.
Don’t use Darren’s demise as an example of WICB dysfunction. The two have nothing to do with each other. So strange that you say “you are all missing the point. It is not about Sammy playing”. Then why use this as your spear point.
We can agree on the WICB dysfunction. Yes action is needed and it’s concerted effort by the club members and cricket members in the territories that will drive that.
You know well enough, for example, that a BCA rep, a man who was very comfortable scoring runs in double quick time, went to a WICB meeting and voted ‘his conscience’ (a La Ted Cruz before we even knew that man – smile). He did not vote how he was directed by his members to vote.
You also know that another high-powered President of great diplomatic skill was roundly accused of literally effing up Board thrusts with a comely BCA business partner again in deference to the members’ best interest.
And – one more example – you know of the long ago sagas of court action started by so-called ‘principaled’ men against the BCA and by extension WI cricket.
So Mr Cadogan why don’t the members really boycott this long time set of ‘Tammany Hall’ BS.
There is one important thing that MUST be reiterated about Darren Sammy: in Caribbean parlance, he is a true gentleman and a ‘real man’. He maxed out his talent on the field and worked like Clive LLoyd or Viv to truly harness the team effort as captain. He had Viv’s edgy persona but always clothed it well in Clive’s diplomatic nuanced style.
We salute the man and after a suitable time hope that he can bring that energy and intelligence to harness action against these entrenched operators.
“That’s okay, I’ve always believed West Indies cricket is not about Darren Sammy. They are looking to the future and I wanna wish the new captain … all the best as he looks to lead West Indies cricket and take it forward. ”
Spoken like the real man he always was!
Cadogan to follow your line of reason the WICB should be lauded for the apparent revival of fortunes in Test cricket. Roston Chase, Dowrich and Holder came through the WICB system all with more to offer than Sammy at their stage in his career. Recall Sammy entered the team as a replacement when the first team went on strike. He and Kemar Roach capitalized on that luck. Having two of his countrymen running the WICB at the time assisted him tremendously. They made him captain of all formats.
Sammy is an ordinary player who seems to have an overinflated belief in his ability. That worked for sometime now it looks like he has shot his load seldom contributing to the team on the field with bat or ball. Even his IPL team cut him. He doesn’t have anything to grouse about he lambasted the WICB in front of the world after they made him a rich man. He was a leader in the aborted Indian tour which cost a $42 million law suit against the WICB. Indeed he can count himself a fotunate son. Let him go in peace time to move on.
In 1974, when Clive Lloyd became captain, Garry Sobers, Rohan Kanhai, Charlie Davis (with a test average of 58) Maurice Foster were all dropped………just so. The first two were recent captains.
If these could be dropped………..who is Sammy?
In 91, we went to the World cup without Richards Greenidge Dujon after Richardson was appointed captain. If you can drop these three, you can drop Sammy anytime.
If you could drop Chanderpaul, you can drop Sammy.
“…the West Indies Cricket Board and its band of myopic nomadic members, whose only purpose (sic) is to splurge off of West Indies cricket for their own personal gains and to keep West Indies cricket a submerged state in the cricketing world”.
Really? So as a result we should retain a mediocre Sammy?
The problem with W.I. players is not knowing when to call it a day. Sammy can’t make the team on merit, so why should Courtney Brown and Co. select him when the next meaningful T20 competition is the 2020 World Cup. Sammy is now free to play CPL, IPL, Big Bash, etc.
The Courtney Browne led selectors appear to be moving to youth and sending a message of the urgent need t perform.
Brathwaite new Windies T20 captain
I am not an Andrew Mason fan however last night he,speaking seriously for once in his brief exposure to cricket commentary,offered up a dolly.He thought Keiron Pollard did a poor job in the role of Captain of the Tridents.I couldn’t agree more and I hope never to see him,Pollard,in that role again.
@ Jeff Cumberbatch
We agree with you, completely!
The only problem is that all of our test players are mediocre.
There is nobody in our team who can be or should be an automatic selection, nobody
not even the captain.
Yes, Jason Holder ‘had’ some potential but we said sometime ago and you disagreed then
that the management of the WICB will soon destroy him.
@ David
Wait, only Bajans could captain the WI now?
Browne and his Co’mere mafia better stop the shiite before the mashup the whole thing.
@Pacha
Who would you have given the captaincy to if not Carlos?
On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Barbados Underground wrote:
>
On the subject of Cricket Caribbean to replace the WICB,I think it should be given serious thought and handed over to the UWI to develop the game and expand it to include all the Caribbean including Venezuela,Colombia,DR,Cuba,Panama,C.Rica,Nicaragua,Honduras,
Belize,Mexico and PR.Start at the under 13’s and market the game professionally.The possibilities are endless.CC could produce bats in the Region made of wood from the Caribbean.Similarly balls,mitts,pads,guards,stumps,bails,the whole gamut of cricketing paraphernalia.
RE Gabriel August 6, 2016 at 2:16 PM #
I am not an Andrew Mason fan however last night he,speaking seriously for once in his brief exposure to cricket commentary,
YOU DO KNOW THAT ANDREW STARTED COMMENTING FOR CBC SINCE 1984. HE POSITED THEN THAT HE WAS THE HEIR APPARENT ( i SUPPOSE TO COZIER)
RE offered up a dolly.He thought Keiron Pollard did a poor job in the role of Captain of the Tridents.I couldn’t agree more and I hope never to see him,Pollard,in that role again.
HE SHOULD NEVER BE CAPTAIN OF A TEAM WITH BARBADOS IN THE NAME
TOO MANY TRINIS IN THAT TEAM
GLAD THEY LOST BADLY
CONGRATS TO CARLOS
NOW HE WILL GET TO PLAY REGULARLY IN AT LEAST ONE FORMAT
HE OUGHT TO HAVE PLAYED IN THE LAST TEST AS A BATSMAN
GP
Of course Carlos has carved a name for himself and Ben Stokes in the annals of T20 cricket,so he has a reputation to live up to because in the after match overview of his strategy in that final over,he gave a very sensible and articulate account of his plan to handle Stokes and it worked.
We often hear the unsupported claim that this or that batsman or bowler was “destroyed” by the WIBC. Or that they were not given a chance. These claims have been particularly common since the 1960s, when small island cricketers resented being excluded from the Test teams. Of course, when the Vincentians and the St. Lucians and the Dominicans and the Grenadians were finally selected, they all failed abysmally. I’m thinking particularly of the Shillingfords and Findleys and Junior Murrays and such. Nowadays, with so many opportunities out there for individual players to develop their talents, it’s hard to keep blaming the WIBC.
NOT TRUE SIR. IRVINE SHILLINGFORD WAS UNFAIRED
Andrew Mason spews loads of balderdash that’s not the case in his correct assessment of Pollard’s captaincy. Pollard’s leadership was awful. To make matters worse he and Malik lost their ability to score big. When DE Villiers and his teammates surprised everyone mid- season and headed to South Africa never to return the Tridents were in more than a spot of bother.
Pollard and the Trident selectors drafted a squad with a large number of mediocre unknown Trinis. In addition the few Bajans selected were rookies with the exception of a sub par Nurse whose game is in tatters.
A friend pointed out Pollard was rigid when he won the toss he always batted first. There wasn’t any creativity in his captaincy the opposition knew exactly what his decisions would be. Next year Pollard should return to Trinidad with his bf Bravo or go elsewhere .
The Tridents should make Carlos skipper recall Dwayne Smith along with Dowrich, Holder and Brooks. At least three quality bowlers/all-rounders and two batsmen should be added. DE Villiers if he is available must stay for the duration . Pooran can be retained. Then you have a truly Barbados Tridents. Just as the Knight Riders are mainly Trini and the Tallawahs majority Jamaican fans demand Tridents be Bajan dominant. That’s the way you build a franchise supporters can embrace.
@sports fan aka waiting
Do you really understand how the draft works?
http://cplt20live.com/auction-sold-players-price/
@chad99999 August 6, 2016 at 5:45 PM …your remarks do not gel with the facts. For every Leewards and Windwards player who failed in your eyes there are several who succeeded beyond comparison. And as the Dr said beyond a doubt Irving Shilllingford was not given a fair run.
Realistically of course the number of opportunities were much less back then and unless you played well consistently once dropped, getting back could be a long time…and more importantly in his case he was not from one of the big islands.
People like Norbert Phillips also missed out re more games. There are a few others whose names defeat me at the moment.
If one honestly compares some of the guys who played (Vannie Holder for example) with some who did not or did not get a good run then it’s easy enough to blame the leadership of the day.
Call the outs fairly! No hometown umpiring allowed. LOLL
@Dee Word
What is your point? Did Carlisle Best miss out too? What about Thelston Payne and Michael Worrell.
David, that is exactly the point. Many missed out due to the circumstances of the era. Chad45 many a rather inaccurate assessment of Combined Islands players. The facts are not in dispute if we are being real: players from the CI were disadvantaged more starkly.
That sir was my riposte to Chad45.
Now, to take on your post more directly. Why would you say that Thelston Payne or Michael Worrell were disadvantaged.
Carlisle maybe, but with respect bro I wouldn’t use that type of narrative for Thelston and Michael. They had a run and were unable to burn brightly consistently and the ‘team turbulence’ of the era caused their demise.
We could play this name game all night and in each era there are names who can be seen as having ‘missed out’ vis a vis another player.
Some missed out legitimately and others like Carlisle or a Shillingford were basically shafted for non-cricket reasons. Unfortunately such is life.
That doesn’t make the hurt for the player kosher of course but at least we can try to be honest and real about it.
Talking about ‘missed out’. There are those who screwed themselves. Milton Small comes to mind in that regard. Didn’t he take a bushel of wickets in a Test in England and then run afoul of Lloyd for some indiscretion and got kicked to the curb after the tour!
That sorta thing – real or imagined – also caused some of this ‘missing out’!
I looked up the figures. Irvine Shillingford – 4 Test matches. Three against Pakistan where he succeeded only once in six innings, admittedly with a century. Failed in both innings of a Test match with Australia. Batting average of only 31. I rest my case.
@ Wayne Cadogan
You are a cricket novice. Your assessment of WI cricket is often based on emotionalism and the cricketers you like and not fact. Hence your rush to condemn the WIBC, which has now become the customary practice.
Cricketers who have been recently selected for teams such as England, Australia, New Zealand, India, South Africa and Pakistan were able to achieve a level of success that has eluded WI players over the past 20 years.
You would talk shiite if, for example, Marlon Samuels was dropped from the WI test team. Samuels is a mediocre cricket who, after making his test debut against Australia in December 2000, 16 years and 66 tests later, averages 33.12 with 7 centuries. And people like you would say WI is not at full strength when he is not in the team.
What sense is there trying to build a team with the same cricketers who, when they occupied “cemented” positions in the team, were unable to move the WI cricket forward.
Darren Sammy, Denish Ramdin, Marlon Samuels and even Darren Bravo, have all gone past their expiry dates. It’s time to look at building a team with youngsters.
The WI has not been able to win when, in the opinion of your ilk, they are at “full strength.” And it’s stupid to think that the selectors can pick a team that would immediately win series.
Many West Indians chose to conveniently forget the shiite Brian Lara was allowed to do to disrupt WI cricket, while saying he should be untouchable because he is a “cricket genius.
But all his escapades were swept under the carpet and forget because the cricketing authorities wanted to make sure he was always selected for the team. The same thing goes for unruly Chris Gayle.
When all of that shiite was going on, the WICB was the best thing since sliced bread for people like Wayne Cadogan.
@Artax
You sound like a dunce.
Brian Lara was a batting genius. The only one we have produced. Chris Gayle is not up to Lara’s standards, but given the sorry state of WI cricket, he is the big man on the pitch today. Neither of these guys should ever have had to follow all the silly rules coaches and team managers come up with. Like a low level employee of a giant corporation, the typical sports professional is treated like a boot camp trainee who must obey every command from his tyrannical bosses. Curfews. Deadlines. Grown men deserve room to make their own decisions. West Indies cricket need not follow the Stalinist model of Australia and England.
Back to the substantive point. We have seen little change to the structure of the WICB or Secretariat. Several studies including the Patterson Report point to structural changes that are required to efficiently manage the cricket enterprise in 2016.
The story is that Carlisle was rude to Viv Richards. They say he told him that unlike some people he didn’t need to play cricket for a living as he had other options. Apparently Viv told him to go and pursue them.
I loved Brian Lara but though I would have given him a little leeway to do what worked for him I would have asked him to be discreet because the other lesser mortals would not have taken their place as those of yesteryear would have done. People nowadays are not willing to accept that they aren’t as special as others in particular areas. It’s one of those brass bowl problems that Bushie often talks about. So Brian Lara should have thought of the team because as we saw, not even he could win the matches alone. The other ten were still necessary. Group dynamics can win or lose a match.
That brings me to another point. Why tamper with a winning team? I wouldn’t have. Sammy contributed little by way of bat and ball but as the captain HE MUST HAVE PLAYED AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN THE TEAM’S WIN. He motivated them, kept them united, kept them focused and developed tactics and strategy. Sammy is a very positive individual who believes against the odds. So the self-defeating slumped shoulders we often see when things go against us were not in evidence. He kept a smile and he kept believing. And it was contagious. SAMMY IS A PEOPLE’S PERSON. He understands people. He is respected by his teammates. This is NOT TO BE UNDERESTIMATED. How come you folks can’t see that management of people can make a difference in a widely disparate and disgruntled unit like a WI cricket team but you can see that management of people in all other areas is priceless and is actually where we fall down in MOST OF OUR ENDEAVOURS? It’s probably a male thing. You tend to play down feelings. That is why you need us.
Finally, Carlos Brathwaite is undoubtedly an intelligent fellow but sporting intelligence is a special area. I will see if he has it in him. But we know that justice must not only be done but must be SEEN to be done in order for it to be accepted. To all but the biased Barbadians it is going to appear as though Courtney’s main agenda is to find places for Barbadians. When Brian Lara was captain we accused him of playing all Trinis and when Chris Gayle was captain we accused him of favouring Jamaicans. I fear this appointment will continue the feud and may do more harm than good. That is unless Carlos is a people’s person like Darren Sammy.
Let us pray!
“Duncy Artax”, (LOL)
The right spot is somewhere between yours and Chad’s position. It often is.
chad99999 August 7, 2016 at 2:06 AM #
“Brian Lara was a batting genius. The only one we have produced. Chris Gayle is not up to Lara’s standards, but given the sorry state of WI cricket, he is the big man on the pitch today. NEITHER OF THESE GUYS SHOULD EVER HAVE HAD TO FOLLOW ALL THE SILLY RULES COACHES AND TEAM MANAGERS COME UP WITH.”
@ chad99999
Hahahahahaha!!!!! WTF!!!
Shiite, and you wrote the above comments after mentioning I “sound like a dunce?” My friend, you sound like a “jackass dunce” for writing such cvnt.
Your comments are tantamount to saying, for example, George Browne should not have to follow company rules because he is the only employee who has a PhD.
Of all the shiite contribution you continue to post to BU, this one certainly takes the top prize.
What Chad99999 is trying to convey (poorly) is that the stars or what the Americans refer to as franchise players are often ‘managed’ differently a la Michael Jordan, Messi, Lebron James etc. He is correct in this regard.
On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Barbados Underground wrote:
>
I agree with Donna, here.
The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Chad always adopt the most extreme position and so you are either a genius or a dunce.
I think you two guys (Artax and Chad) are both above average.
Let em add that I don’t agree with Chad’s position of having two different classes of cricketers.
@David, many have prosecuted that point (We have seen little change to the structure of the WICB) since that first Patterson report and the two others. But in fact (loll) there has been quite extensive change: six presidents, seven CEOs and nine captains roughly since 2000 ! Oh lawd.
But on the serious note the calls for change though on point need also to reflect a few home truths.
The WICB was the first cricket body to institute the governing processes which are NOW used (effectively I should add) by Australia and NZ particularly. We were the first to set-up a company structure and have shareholders from the constituent Boards.
All the reports, whether Patterson, Wilkins or Barriteau, have highlighted modifications to that structure in nuanced ways (less and more independent directors, for example). Of course the last report called for the immediate disbanding of the WICB or in simplistic parlance the removal of the bath water AND baby.
To stretch that analogy, when will any parent ever agree to the death of their baby!
Once again the WI set the tone and process for success. Others has taken that model, built on it, improved it and completely out performed us. Australia did it most effectively on the field and then doubled-down for greater success in the Board room.
Take a closer look at the actual structures and processes and you will clearly see that they ‘copied’ and updated our model.
We have failed because of petty infighting and lack of execution. Not because of poor structure in and of itself.
It is not some draconian illegal change (governmental dismantling of the Board is such) that is needed but rather practical effective execution and relevant adaptation to meet modern operational excellence.
I’ll go back to over 20 years plus when the WICB was incorporated. Then there was a clause in the Articles which gave the president basically extra voting rights – a casting tie breaker vote – which many considered unacceptable.
That type of ‘arcane’ minutiae is the type thing requiring change…as it is such which often bites hardest in the backside.
In sum, let’s do get to the meaningful change that can deeply affect operational governance. I am unconvinced that the talk of ex-officially dismantling a legally formed entity is the way to do.
@Dee Word
And outside the reports prepared by prominent persons we have had people like Rawl Brancker et al who have been stridently sharing alternative positions.
On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Barbados Underground wrote:
>
David,
Not so poorly it couldn’t be understood. Managed differently but managed nevertheless. As I said, a little leeway should have been given for him to do what worked for him. The great Gary Sobers said he would bat better when he hadn’t had all night to think about it. So he stayed out late and distracted himself. That worked for him. But he even greater mortals need some sleep and I doubt he would have been allowed to stay out ALL NIGHT. As I said before, good managers are vital for the group dynamics work. Good communication is often the key to understanding. Explaining the whys of a particular action usually soothe bruised egos.
Unfortunately most young people are not like Gordon Greenidge and will probably go with England. It’s all about me these days.
@ Donna
Then again, and on reflection, perhaps chad99999’s comments are correct relative to “curfews, deadlines” and “grown men deserve room to make their own decisions.”
Could it be that the “curfews and deadlines” are responsible for the WI abysmal performances during the past 20 years and being beaten within 3 days of a 5 day test match?
To hell with curfews and deadlines!!! Give the grown men room to make their own decisions. Allow them to “party hardy” and drink until the wee hours of the morning……….. wake up stale drunk and play cricket.
Perhaps only then we will see a resurgence of WI cricket.
@David August 7, 2016 at 7:38…franchise players treated differently you say. LOLL, as usual you say a chapter in a sentence.
The entire purpose of a manager of millionaire modern day players is finding the right motivational skills to get his team to victory with high maintenance egos and the almighty advertising revenue $$. The Messis and Jordans of the sports world may things ‘comparatively easy’. The Larras, Balotellis, Latrell Sprewells and A-Rods or Bothams and Warnes do not.
Ask Balotelli why his career is where it is…supremely talented guy on a reserve team and can’t find a suitor.
On the flip side ask Suarez about his career. A man who assaults others and would be a convicted felon otherwise. So yes sir people are treated differently (nothing to do with race do don’t lets go there).
If you perform and make your club money then you will indeed be cut a lot of slack but any sportman who sees that as an excuse to over-step the line too many times will eventually get burnt BADLY.
One more assault from Suarez and he too will be like Balotelli…a wanderer.
Brian Lara was given a lot of rope of course and he tangled an entire team. Most unfortunate.
Incidentally, why argue on merits of Lara and Gayle as players. They are both ‘geniuses’ at their craft. An argument can be made for both of them in an all-time WI test team. And a strong argument too for Gayle in a final 11 far less a squad of 16!
The WICB says it is on a rebuilding mission for the next world cup hence the appointment of Carlos Brathwaite to see if he has the ability to rise to the challenge. The dilemma and difficulty for the WICB will come when some of these players achieve success and ask for the NOC.
What ails the WICB is the same as what ails the general society. We do not wish to hear anybody’s views but our own. We want to rule rather than serve. We want to preserve any system that keeps us on top. We think only in the short term. We don’t realize that all these things will kill the golden goose and eventually nobody will have any gold. We don’t see how interconnected we all are.
Artax,
No, Chad is not entirely correct. Partying all night is not an option. Did you read what I wrote about Gary? It cannot be one size fits ALL because people are different. For instance, one rum and coke drunk a couple of hours before leaving a fete relaxes me and makes me a better driver. But that’s because I am a nervous driver, too aware of the idiot that could be around the next corner. A good manager will know his players and get them to co-operate with what works for them. In a workplace some people have their most productive times in the morning and others in the afternoon. Flexitime is often a good idea if the type of business allows.
The way to get people to co-operate is often just a matter of good communication.
Donna August 7, 2016 at 7:10 AM #
“Sammy contributed little by way of bat and ball but as the captain HE MUST HAVE PLAYED AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN THE TEAM’S WIN. He motivated them, kept them united, kept them focused and developed tactics and strategy. Sammy is a very positive individual who believes against the odds.”
@ Donna
I agree with your above comments within the context that a Sammy was needed at that time. However, your arguments were presented in defense of Sammy’s inclusion in the WI team. The cricket pundits/gurus/analysts often said if he was not captain, he would not have a secured position in team and by his inclusion, he was keeping some other deserving player out of the team.
The below article taken from the “Trinidad & Tobago Newsday” is an example:
WI Selectors killing West Indies Cricket
Saturday, November 16 2013
RAYMOND HACKSHAW
THE EDITOR: I keep wondering when the West Indies cricket board will fire the West Indies selectors along with their coach Otis Gibson and Darren Sammy.
They are a total embarrassment to the cricketing public and all lovers of this beautiful game. Why they persist with Darren Sammy as captain, is beyond all comprehension! Darren Sammy is not a test cricketer and I repeat not a test cricketer and will never ever be, he cannot bat, yes cannot bat, at best he is the ultimate vooper, vooping from the get go. He is an ordinary bowler who gets an occasional wicket; simply put he is not an all-rounder.
In my opinion, for West Indies Cricket to move forward the West Indies Board has to start by removing the selectors and the coach, remove Darren Sammy as captain, because that is PREVENTING a BETTER PLAYER from MAKING the team,
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In 2013, although conceding Sammy was a unifying force in the WI team, Clive Lloyd questioned his (Sammy’s) future in the team. Former players Michael Holding and Brain Davis also expressed the view that Sammy should not be WI captain or be a member of the team.
Ironically, Sammy’s critics will obviously have a completely different view of their positions after he was sacked as the T20 captain.
The dropping of Sammy is obviously linked to his criticism of the Board post ICC World Cup win. The rebuild argument although a valid one is more PR. Let us try to make our arguments relevant to the current reality.
On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Barbados Underground wrote:
>
@David, but why the need for “The dilemma and difficulty for the WICB will come when some of these players achieve success and ask for the NOC.”
Why should that happen? If these guys are on top of their processes there should be no issue or rather as you said dilemma. This is where ‘treating differently’ definitely needs to be in play.
A fellow like Carlos has his youth once, right! So he needs to maximize his earning potential as a cricketer during these halcyon days of youth. The WICB surely MUST accept that.
Thus either they pay him a really good comparative market salary or allow him via the NOC to participate at tournaments where he can augment and earn that type of salary.
Of course its not a simple 1-2-3 easy process in reality but properly planned and communicated there can avoid dilemmas.
And just as surely this is not about Carlos or Jason directly but about properly planned processes for the captains and other top players….all about ‘treating differently’. Smile.
Did you see that the owner of Leicester bought BMW sports cars for all his champion winning team. Vastly non-comparative to our situation of ‘treating differentlyl’, yes I know; but the point is that underdogs can do great things with great planning, motivation and when everyone is truly ‘ALL IN’…
…that is the WICB’s dilemma.
@Dee Word
The NOCs are issued by other Boards based on the itinerary read commitment of the national team?
Artax,
How much better would this better player be? Are the ten runs more that he would probably contribute and the occasional wicket worth more than Sammy’s unifying force? That is the question. We shall soon have the answer.
@David, rousing discussion here on cricket. So let me round off your 8:55 and 8:58 post before I step off.
It is a canyon easily forged by a bridge of retribution to say “The dropping of Sammy is obviously linked to his criticism of the Board post ICC World Cup win”.
But a better bridge based on sound logical practices says no. Darren Sammy himself stated that he expected the ICC tournament to be his last as captain and player. We can all go back and check carefully his narrative before and during the tournament.
So whichever people want to believe is fine but there are NO practical cricket or management reasons for Darren Sammy to continue to lead a WI T-20 team heading towards the next ICC cup.
NOCS: Yes of course NOC are issued by the Boards and as we know the entire concept was agreed between Boards and the player reps. It is part of the complex process of ensuring countries, franchises, advertisers and the cricket public get the benefit of top players across the various games and tournaments.
The process was created to prevent dilemmas not create them. It is crystal clear that the WI is the only ‘nation’ that have MAJOR problems with this process re their top players…the ONLY one!
So is it about money? Is it about management? Is it about small-minded elites demeaning this new considerable financial power of these ‘lil boys’?
I will make no claims. But ours is the only social structure where the average player is very much treated with scant respect.
Despite all the gains coming after the Lloyd era, ours was still the only ‘nation’ where its player union adopted (had to?) tactics last seen many years previously with militant, stridently adversarial action at seemingly every turn.
So sir, I say again, the NOC is not the dilemma. The WICB management is the dilemma..cause and result.
@Dee Word
An oxymoron to state that the discussion is rousing yet you will stepoff?
Why do you think Sammy cloaked his criticism of the Board in the way he did? He knew is was not the time or place to be critical of the Board. He made his decision like Bravo and the lot and no amout of fandagle explanations will change this best practice.
Why did he say that, do you think?
It is interesting to see how different people approach the problems in WI cricket. Just like a lawyer, David thinks it somehow helps to “re-structure” the WIBC. Bring money, David. Various people want to fire the selection committee. Donna talks like a typical woman: We need a captain who can motivate the team and skilfully manage its “group dynamics”.
All of you are climbing up the wrong tree. West Indies used to rely on “natural talent” for batting, and on fast bowling short of a good length that intimidated batsmen — before all that protective equipment became part of the game. That approach doesn’t work any more, so what’s next. The answer is data-driven cricket that focuses on bowling because bowlers win matches.
What is unique about each delivery that has claimed a Test wicket? Not just in our matches but in the matches of the Australians, South Africans, Indians, Sri Lankans, Pakis and Brits. Who was the batsman.What was the speed, length and angle of the ball, the height of delivery, condition of the pitch, the placement of the field, the angle of the sun, etc.
Enter all the data into a computer and do some analysis. A picture will emerge of specific types of deliveries that work best against each batsman on each opposing team. So issue specific instructions to each of the bowlers we select to go up against an opposing batsman. Those instructions would be precise about exactly how to bowl each over, down to the details of sequencing the different deliveries. All based on what has actually worked against a particular batsman in the past. Computer memory replaces intimidation.
@David, LOLLL. I absolutely love your interpretations. There is a very important fact I hope all writers on BU grasp (I know Walter has, loll): words need to be clear and thoughts clearer still…so let me try this again….smile!
“So let me round off your 8:55 and 8:58 post before I step off”….as I have to get ahead with other things. No oxy-clean or oxymoron!
But having not gone yet….this is my view re Darren.
Darren used his one day ‘champion’s publicity media glare’ to bare his feelings and get a strong punch to the WI Board. He knew very well he was relinquishing his roles in WI cricket and would not ever have as good an opportunity with that megaphone volume.
I believe that he was clear that as a professional he was not contributing to team success on the field as he would like and that it was time to move on… he did so as a champion…double champion too!
One can quibble about his statements but I would offer that his only reason to voice them at that time was to generate as much support possible to effect change. He did not do it as a mere publicity stunt; nor did he fear losing his captaincy or place. Those he knew were done after the tournament regardless.
Thus he will only see his remarks as successful if change for the better – short and mid term – can be forced…I too will only see it that way.
That is the persona which Darren projects in my view. He weeps for Caribbean cricket completely.
(n simple terms, in his homeland he is a national treasure…he and his family will always now be at the center of a pot of gold there. No one need worry for him beyond the boundary…until he gets into cricket admin…and then we will condemn him afresh…loll)
The problem Dee Word is all your explanations do not reconcile with his hotel room video of his view regarding the decision to replace him.
@Dee Word, guess that the West Indies will also allow this kid to get away too! I saw an interview with him and he stated that wanted to play for England on his first class debut for his county team.
Jofra Archer is getting paid playing county cricket in England.
He is eligible to play for England.
Why would he say he wants to play for the West Indies even if he does ?
@David, your Facebook chat is informative. Catwell gets it perfectly right. Why would any professional cricketer who has the opportunity to play for England or WI choose the latter unless his strategy is to use the easier route to national team selection and then to international exposure and riches hopefully.
None of us can really get into the head of former players beyond of course their comments in their books and articles. And from all that, it seems that monetary stability was certainly a key motivator for most of them.
Those who were able to balance a county career and play for the WI did both well as they never really had to choose. But remember Haynes and that WICB folly for returning late from SA, for example.
Have the use of academies and Sir Hilary’s effort with his UWI program not been done to achieve just the goal of spotting talent and twinning it to developmental programs for the youthful cricketer! Of course.
Blame the folks for not doing enough and for not continuing to grow those programs. But to suggest that we are allowing talent to slip through our fingers seems overly pessimistic and a narrow view of the facts.
The little I know informs me that this issue of talent scouting and players going to England etc is as old as the hills. And here I come to the fray in the Capt. Short days with an inkling of what happened then.
So back to the start…I remember a lad called Alleyne who opted to play for England rather than WI back in the day.. So too a fellow called Gladstone Small. Both, if I am not mistaken, actually went to school the same as Chris Jordan (must be the water up there, Loll).
So what drove a good old Bajan boy like Small to turn his back on national pride? One was financial stability I am sure. The other was that it was harder to make the WI team…exactly the opposite of why this lad Archer would make England his choice now.
This is not a simple discourse of some ephemeral national pride…cannot be!
RE: David at 11:02 AM #…let’s agree to disagree. Your interpretations are different to mine having heard the same remarks. The man clearly said to the effect, I don’t know when I will play with these fellows again, which I read as a tactic ‘bye-bye’.
Now that was after his famous speech, but before that he made remarks about this being the last opportunity for many of the senor players and that they wanted to play and win, thus they put aside all disagreements with the Board. Remember weeks before he directly had challenged the Board on some outstanding issues.
My analysis of those facts is different to you sir. That’s why Jeff turns out so many lawyers to make lots of money parsing verbiage.
Not a cent to be made here bro so I think we have parsed this to death.
Later
@chad99999 August 7, 2016 at 10:25 AM #…you have to be out of your cotton picking mind. How can you take such a real aspect of sports and turn it into a side-show jibe. LOLLL.
So when the ‘Ninja’ Malcolm Marshall was dissecting batsmen so deftly do you think he was not utilizing all the fancy computer metrics as derived and developed from a close mental analysis.
No dispute that all the analytics help but to suggest that they can miraculously improve performance is laughable…well no sorry. Let me back-up.
You are right. After the computer analysis as long as we employ very competent sportsmen who can execute the plans perfectly like a McGrath, Stark or Ambrose or Anderson then success is absolutely guaranteed.
The fact that this was exactly the point since a smart fellow decided to try something called a body-line attack is obviously irrelevant now that we will create this mass of metronome efficient excellent bowlers based on these new computer analyses.
Phew…what a mouthful. Chad I know you say these things to get a rise, so I obliged. LOLL.
@Wayne, no sir WI will not let him slip through their fingers. Nope.
The lad will make the best decision to suit his life. That is why the WICB will lose out.
They have proved themselves to be incapable of man management…why would he join such a fracas when there is an excellent man managed process just off an exit of the M1 motorway likely just miles from his current training ground and which will not affect his county career.
Would YOU do any different!!
Let’s get real pleassseee!
Artax, you can call me all types of names, it doesn’t matter. My article has nothing to do with Sammy, you must read and understand the main concept of what you are reading. I just used that as a point. If you knew anything thing about me or what I have said in the past, you would have realized that for the past three years, that I have been calling for the axing of Samuel’s and Ramadin from the West Indies team.
Furthermore, West Indies cricket was successful with fast bowling and I have always felt that if West indies cricket is to reach those pinnacles again, then they have to go back to four fast bowlers. Also, I have being saying for the past four years that we should have been rebuilding or team with young players, in order that in two or three years, those young players would be seasoned professionals.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that Bravo is not up to standard, since as a number three batsman, since he does not like the short ball and cannot play it when it is dug in. Yes, he has not lived up to the reputation that he came into the game with and needs to be dropped too. The majority of you that read my article, miss the point. I was not making a case for Sammy, since I have always felt, after they took away the Test captaincy from him, that it was only a matter of time that he would have been dropped all together. He was successful and they kept him, but because of his out outspokenness after the World Cup and not being a “YES” person, that it was the right time to drop him.
Wayne R Cadogan August 7, 2016 at 3:29 PM #
“My article has nothing to do with Sammy, you must read and understand the main concept of what you are reading.”
@ Wayne R Cadogan
Don’t worry about the name calling.
Can you indicate to me where, in any of my contributions, I mentioned your article had anything to do with Darren Sammy?
Surely you are the one who “must read and understand the main concept of what you are reading.” because my references to Sammy were in response SPECIFICALLY to Donna’s contributions in which she raised an issue about him.
@Wayne R Cadogan August 7, 2016 at 2:29 PM #,
The WICB has no more control over which country Jofra Archer plays for than the cricketing authorities in South Africa had over which country Andrew Strauss, Kevin Pietersen, Jonathan Trott and Matt Prior chose to represent.
The potential to earn financially is greater in England than in South Africa and the West Indies, so that is a big consideration when players make their decisions.
How many more…?
Artaxerxes, August 07, 2016, 12:54 am
I might be a cricket novice, but I do not have to use profanity to defend what I have to say. When a person cannot defend themselves, they usually resort to profanity! not my fault that you are not capable of expressing yourself other wise. You seem to have a personal grouse towards what issues that I comment on? You know, you can save yourself the agony by not reading them! Have a great day!
Wayne,
We didn’t miss your point we just got a little sidetracked.
Donna August 8, 2016 at 9:17 AM #
“Wayne……. We didn’t miss your point we just got a little sidetracked.”
@ Donna
Yes, exactly…….. the EXCHANGE about Darren Sammy was between US and NOT Cadogan. I don’t know why he is becoming so hot under the collar.
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Wayne R Cadogan August 8, 2016 at 9:00 AM #
“Artaxerxes, August 07, 2016, 12:54 am: I might be a cricket novice, but I do not have to use profanity to defend what I have to say. When a person cannot defend themselves, they usually resort to profanity! not my fault that you are not capable of expressing yourself other wise.”
@ Wayne R. Cadogan
Are you willing to indicate to me where is the profanity in any of my responses to YOUR contributions and give me an example of how I am unable to defend myself?
It seems as though comprehension is not one of your strong points, since you continue to misinterpret the content of my responses. Surely you cannot expect to make a contribution to BU with the hope of being unchallenged and everyone agreeing with you. If that’s the case, then you are exhibiting a sense of insecurity and immaturity.
Come off it, man. I told you forget about the name calling and, rather than being side-tracked with non-issues, defend your position on the issues you raised in your article.
And for the record, I don’t have a personal grouse against you, especially if your are that Wayne Cadogan, who is a fellow “Black Rockian.”
Artaxerxes, No sir, you are definitely getting me confused with another Wayne Cadogan. I am not that Wayne Cadogan that you know!
Okay, I thought your were the Wayne Cadogan who was into fashion designing a few years ago and whose son Fidel and I used to play basket ball together.
I’m sorry, sir………… Please accept my apologies.
Artax, no problem. Yes, I am the Wayne Cadogan who was into designing, But I never lived in Black Rock and my son name is not Fidel (for his age and 6″ 3″ I sure wish he would play basketball). Now you have me stumped, never knew or heard of another Wayne Cadogan in Barbados who is a designer, always thought that I was the only one. Cheers.