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Jeff Cumberbatch - Columnist, Barbados Advocate
Jeff Cumberbatch – Columnist, Barbados Advocate
BU shares the Jeff Cumberbatch Barbados Advocate column  – Senior Lecturer in law at the University of the West Indies since 1983, a Columnist with the Barbados Advocate since 2000 and BU commenter โ€“ see full bio.

Musings: Itโ€™s all about loveโ€ฆ 7/12/2015

[โ€ฆ]

โ€œA new commandment I give unto you. That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one anotherโ€ฆโ€ โ€“ John 13:34

As the on-going employment rights dispute between the Barbados Industrial Development Corporation [BIDC] and the National Union of Public Workers [NUPW] rapidly descends into farce, what with the dismissing employer now reportedly seeking what I suppose to be a declaration from the local courts as to its entitlement in the matter, and the Minister responsible for Labour castigating the NUPW but, remarkably, not the BIDC, for failing to revert to the status quo ante once attempts at political mediation have commenced, I consider that it may be an appropriate time for this column to step away from the fray and to leave resolution of the matter up to the workings of a social system that seeks to reduce even complex legal issues to primitive partisan political sentiment. I should state that I have heard or read nothing further on the issue so far to alter the view I offered two Sundays ago in the essay โ€œLabour is not a commodityโ€.

Last Sunday also marked the expiry of proverbial nine days for the wonder of the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States that a marriage between members of the same sex was lawful in the several jurisdictions to have fretted its fitful โ€œhourโ€ upon the public stage. It should be recalled that this 5-4-majority ruling was a consequence of the courtโ€™s treatment of the Fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution that enjoins the states from depriving โ€œany person of life, liberty or property without due process of lawโ€ or denying โ€œto any person within its jurisdiction equal protection of the lawโ€.

Of course, this decision did not comport with the views of those who, for one reason or another, regard such a holding as nothing short of a sinful abomination. Hence, a decision that heralded a further evolution in what might be considered a human right, as some of those that preceded it, was subjected to the postulation of nightmare scenarios of the probable legalisation of paedophilia, polygamy, polyandry and even bestiality as a consequence of the judgment. This reaction is scarcely novel.

Similar sentiments might have been expressed by some elsewhere when it was decided in Brown v Topeka Board of Education that separate educational facilities based on race are inherently unequal; after Roe v Wade that limited the right of the state to regulate abortions; and at the ruling in the far less celebrated Torcaso v Watkins that the states and the Federal Government were not allowed to require any religious test for holding public office. That our local law is identical in these three respects might surprise more a few.

And for those who would call down the wrath of God on the US for this ruling, they must at the same time do so for the people of Ireland, Norway, South Africa, Sweden and Uruguay, to name a few, all jurisdictions where this form of marriage is lawful.

In my view, much of the angst is owed to a perception that the ruling serves only to adulterate the sanctity of traditional marriage although, as has been pointedly remarked elsewhere, this might better be preserved locally by prohibiting divorce and criminalizing adultery, phenomena that pose far more deleterious threats to that institution than the unlikely prospect of same-sex marriage between two strangers perhaps ever could.

As I suggested last week, marriage in these parts has always enjoyed a unique existence, one not necessarily consonant with Biblical teachings or of those latter-day apostles who purport to speak for God. From earliest times, it seemed to be viewed among the hoi polloi as an unnecessary and unarguably restrictive indulgence. Much more in vogue then was the visiting relationship that gave rise to the notorious phenomenon of the mother who โ€œfatheredโ€ her children. One presumed advance on this was the โ€œlive-widโ€ relationship where the father came home at night although the parties never enjoyed the โ€œbenefit of clergyโ€ โ€ฆor of laity for that matter.

Eventually, these arrangements and their thitherto wrongly so-called, illegitimate, offspring were given legal sanction with very few dissenting voices, if any, at what was, in effect, substantially connived-at fornication. However, my earlier thesis that there are two Barbadoses, the imagined puritan and the actual hedonist, when it comes to traditional standards, especially those pertaining to sexuality, would be further justified in this regard and would have served to sanitise any perception of moral obloquy.

The truth is that the recent ruling is not the first time that the SCOTUS has had to treat with Biblical dogma and the institution of marriage. In the improbably titled Loving v Virginia in 1967, the Court was forced to contend with a lower court opinion that โ€œAlmighty God created the races, white, black, yellow, malay and red. And he placed them on separate continents. And, but for the interference with [H]is arrangement, there would be no cause for such marriage. The fact that he separated the races shows that [H]e did not intend for the races to mixโ€ฆโ€

As a result of this assumedly self-evident proposition , Mildred Loving, a black woman, and Richard Loving, a white man, who had been validly married nine years previously in the District of Columbia, were convicted of the charge of violating the marriage laws of Virginia that provided โ€œif any white person intermarry with a colored person or any colored person intermarry with a white person, he shall be guilty of a felony and shall be punishable by confinement in the penitentiary for not less(sic) than one nor more than five yearsโ€.

In a brief unanimous judgment that would repay reading, the SCOTUS opined that restricting the freedom to marry because of racial classifications violated the central meaning of the Equal Protection Clause under the Fourteenth Amendment. And the Court gave short shrift to the argument, as it had done earlier in Brown v Topeka Board of Education, that equal application of the statute to blacks and whites was enough to remove the classifications from the Amendmentโ€™s proscription of all invidious racial discriminations.

There are obvious differences between the Loving case and the recent ruling on same sex marriage. For one, the selected Biblical passage prayed (no pun) in aid in the latter case, that โ€œman should not lie with man as with a womanโ€ is textual rather than ascribed as with the patently inaccurate thesis on separation of the races. For another, the Lovings were capable of procreation unlike a same-sex couple. Yet both of these considerations; the former because of its lack of bindingness in a secular constitutional polity as opposed to in a theocracy, the latter because of its treatment of what is merely one incident of the marital relationship as the sole key to the essential validity of that union, are inadequate to nullify the arguments of the US Supreme Court.

The truth is that marriage is not merely a religious institution, but is also a civil contractual arrangement that confers and imposes certain express and implied rights and obligations that are legally enforceable on either party. Indeed, even these incidents themselves, as many other precepts, have undergone fundamental change over the years in keeping with the evolution of the human perception of justice.


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80 responses to “The Jeff Cumberbatch Column – It’s all about love…”


  1. it good that this should happen for the word tell us as it was in the days of lot so it will be when the son of man will be revealed. The passing of the law that allows and legalizes the action of the people as it was in the days of lot.


  2. The missing piece of the theological and legal commess is the continued criminalization of sodomy/buggery. SCOTUS and the other countries dealt with this before the marraige matter. We will continue to ignore male on male congress between consenting adults as long as we insist that discrimination is a human right fixed in our social DNA.


  3. I do believe that man is at liberty to choose as he wishes, so long as his choice or choices falls within the confines of sound human laws. Now, if there is suppose to be a high wall of separation between Church and State, why is it then that the State insist upon legislating the sexual affairs of two consenting individuals, by employing the instrument of religious morality as a basis to invalidate such relationship?


  4. Separation of church and State specifically means that the state cannot imposed its will on matters that are under the laws and guidelines of religious teaching, The supreme did not take away such a Right from the Church in its ruling. The Supreme however did take away the right of the Church from imposing its religious doctrines in any way that would deny an individual the basic Equal Right of liberty and the pursuit of Happiness That is a guarantee Law within the Constitution of the USA for everyone.The church must acknowledge that a denial or using religious doctrines to stifle individuals Equal rights is not written in the Constituiton or was given any legal weight within the frame work of the USA Constitution upon which the church can use or stand to suppress individual rights.


  5. The Alabama Supreme Court is being urged to consider the damage done to states and the Constitution by the U.S. Supreme Courtโ€™s recent creation of โ€œsame-sex marriageโ€ before it determines how the ruling applies in the state.

    Liberty Counsel, in a brief on behalf of several family groups, contends there are four significant injuries occurring.

    And the brief argues there is precedent in the U.S. for a state Supreme Court to reject a โ€œU.S. Supreme Court mandate which is unlawful.โ€

    Alabama has been a flashpoint for the marriage fight. When a federal judge ordered the state to impose same-sex marriage, the state Supreme Court refused, arguing itโ€™s own interpretation of the Constitution was just as valid.

    When the U.S. Supreme Court, by a 5-4 majority that included two justices who essentially had publicly lobbied for same-sex marriage by performing ceremonies while the court reviewed the case, legalized same-sex marriage, the Alabama court said it would accept arguments and motions for disposition of the cases in the state.

    โ€œThere is existing precedent for a stateโ€™s highest court to reject an unlawful mandate from the U.S. Supreme Court,โ€ said Liberty Counselโ€™s founder and chairman, Mat Staver. โ€œThe hope of our constitutional Republic rests upon state officials and American citizens who will refuse to allow five, black-robed judges to rob us of our free, representative form of government.

    Curious about whoโ€™s responsible for the sabotage against the American family? Get โ€œTakedown,โ€ by Paul Kengor for the details.

    โ€œA judicial opinion without constitutional basis is not law and should not be followed by any state or citizen,โ€ he said.

    The brief submitted by Liberty Counsel to the state court notes that the Wisconsin Supreme Court refused to follow the U.S. Supreme Court opinion in Dred Scott, which โ€œsaid that blacks were not entitled to full protection as citizens.โ€

    The brief also argues for the state court to protect religious liberty there. It seeks protections for the constitutional rights of Alabama probate judges, some of whom have declined to issue any marriage licenses during the fight, and Christian business owners.

    In other states, such as Oregon and Colorado, Christians have been prosecuted for holding fast to their Christian beliefs.

    โ€œNever before in America has a religious requirement been required to hold office or own a business, and it cannot begin now,โ€ Staver said. โ€œTo require Christians to pull out pages of their Bible in order to hold office or own a business is anti-American and it is unconstitutional, despite what any judge may say otherwise.โ€

    The brief notes that in his dissent from the marriage opinion, Justice Clarence Thomas warned, โ€œAside from undermining the political processes that protect our liberty, the majorityโ€™s decision threatens the religious liberty our nation has long sought to protect.โ€

    And, it states, โ€œChief Justice John Roberts said it best: โ€˜[For] those who believe in a government of laws, not of men, the majorityโ€™s approach is deeply disheartening. โ€ฆ Five lawyers have closed the debate and enacted their own vision of marriage as a matter of constitutional law.โ€™โ€

    Justice Antonin Scalia warned, โ€œThis practice of constitutional revision by an unelected committee of nine โ€ฆ robs the people of the most important liberty they asserted in the Declaration of Independence and won in the Revolution of 1776: the freedom to govern themselves.โ€

    The brief explains the U.S. Supreme Courtโ€™s decision โ€œis an assault on the rule of law โ€ฆ on Alabamian and American democracy โ€ฆ on natural law โ€ฆ on the constitutional right of free exercise of religion.โ€

    โ€œThe willful act of the five lawyers in the majority is particularly egregious in light of what the same majority said only two years ago,โ€ Liberty Counsel noted.

    There, the Washington court said: โ€œThe recognition of civil marriages is central to state domestic relations law applicable to its residents and citizens. The definition of marriage is the foundation of the stateโ€™s broader authority to regulate the subject of domestic relations with respect to the protection of offspring, property interests and the enforcement of marital responsibilities. The states, at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, possessed full power over the subject of marriage and divorce and the Constitution delegated no authority to the government of the United States on the subject of marriage and divorce.โ€

    The brief said that as the court stated, the one man, one woman characteristic of marriage is โ€œimmutable.โ€

    The family is the fundamental unit of society, the brief explains.

    In the Wisconsin case, the brief explains that even though the U.S. Supreme Court overturned the state Supreme Court, โ€œin a final act of defiance,โ€ the state court โ€œnever filed the mandatesโ€ which required people to return โ€œfugitive slavesโ€ to their owners.

    At that time, the Wisconsin court opined, โ€œI believe most sincerely and solemnly that the last hope of free, representative and responsible government rests upon the state sovereignties and fidelity of state officers to their double allegiance, to the state and federal government; and so believe, I cannot hesitate in performing a clear, an indispensable duty.โ€

    The court also declared the federal law unconstitutional.

    The Wisconsin court said, โ€œHere is a distinct recognition of the power and duty of state judges, not to be bound by all the acts of Congress, or by the judgments and decrees of the supreme federal court, or by their interpretation of the constitution and acts of congress, but by โ€˜this constitutionโ€™ โ€˜and the laws made in pursuance thereof.โ€™โ€

    Simply put, they found, a Supreme Court opinion that wasnโ€™t founded in the Constitution was not a judgment.

    โ€œIn the nearly 157 years since the U.S. Supreme Courtโ€™s purported reversal of [the state cases], the Wisconsin Supreme Court has never filed or accepted the U.S. Supreme Court mandates.โ€

    The brief also urges the state court to ensure that officials are allowed to exercise their religious rights, including rejecting same-sex marriage.

    To do otherwise is a violation of the First Amendment and Religious Test Clause of the Constitution, it argued.

    http://www.wnd.com/


  6. AC

    The State in the past has actually imposed its will on matters (as you so eloquently articulated) that are under the laws and guidelines of religious teaching. Because prior to 1960 virtually most if not all of the states within the United States of America, sex between two men as well as two women was viewed as illegal because such practice were thought to have violated the laws of God and that of Nature. So one has to ask his or her self: what was the force behind such laws in the 1960 with respect to same-sex-relationships? And was the American Constitution silent with respect to the basic Equal Rights of Liberty and pursuit of Happiness regarding same-sex-relationships?


  7. @ Jeff
    Why not just focus on Legal areas where your understanding is outstanding and well grounded, and leave the spiritual matters to those who actually understand them?
    Don’t forget that even Bolt, the very best 100 metre athlete ever, could be a complete embarrassment if he entered himself in the high jump.
    Two simple points.

    First…
    There are three basic classes of ‘Laws’.
    1 – ‘Laws’ made by man.
    2 – Physical Laws of Nature.
    3 – Spiritual Laws of God.

    The laws of Nature are fully subject to; and in total synergy with, the laws of God.
    The Laws of Man simply represent our best attempts to create a society that is synergetic with the Laws of Nature, and the Laws of God.

    Obviously, man’s success in this regard only represent the extent to which we understand the physical and spiritual realities. So if there is a SPIRITUAL law that says that the institution of marriage is specially sanctified and is representative of a very special SPIRITUAL concept, …and if in nature we see large-scale adherence to this spiritual decree… How does the logic of mere humans determine otherwise?
    …and with what consequences?

    Second point…
    Ignorance of spiritual laws is no excuse.
    A simple review of past experiences where ‘intellectuals’ and ‘forward-thinkers’ justified such desecrations of spiritual laws (that they did not understand) should in itself be enough to warn of the inevitable consequences of this societal acceptance of the desecration of marriage.
    LOL
    You probably have NO IDEA of what the hell goes on in the Bermuda triangle…but based on past history, Bushie would wager that it would NOT be a preferred route for you if you had the choice…

    …a word to the wise is sufficient.


  8. Zoe

    There was a clause in the United State Constition called Imposition. That is where the state could have litigate against the federal government if it thought that the federal government had implemented a law which the state viewed illegal. But the imposition clause has since been abandoned after Reconstruction.


  9. Question to YOU Dompey, Does the church have the right to imposed Religious doctrine on State Law ?


  10. However the State does have a right a Constitutional Right to barred anyone including the Church from taking away a guaranteed right to the people, The supreme Court in its wisdom UNDER SCORE EQUALITY as a Supreme law justifiable crucial and important to individual well being and took Equality to the highest level of its interpretation (even) excluding moral persuasion on the grounds that religious doctrine is persuasive enough to deny anyone EQUALITY.A Good ruling which should be applauded .


  11. Zoe

    Can you cite specifically where this precedent in the U.S. for a state supreme court to reject a U.S. Supreme Court mandate which it deems unlawful? Zoe, the decision of the U.S. Supreme Court is binding because it is the highest law in the land and the final legal arbiter on a specific grievance. And what you have stated regarding the state supreme court deeming a mandate from the U.S. Supreme Court unlawful, does even make sense from a legal standpiont. Because if a law has already been implemented you can only challenge that law through the appellate process and not by way of the state supreme court.


  12. @Bush Tea

    There is not wiggle room in your rebuttal of Jeff’s article for the secular? We do live in a secular work right?


  13. AC

    There is a Free Exercise Clause in the United States Constitution which prevents any religious body and not mainly the Christain Church from imposing its religious doctrine on the state.


  14. Zoe July 12, 2015 at 8:24 AM #
    The Alabama Supreme Court is being urged to consider the damage done to states and the Constitution by the U.S. Supreme Courtโ€™s recent creation of โ€œsame-sex marriageโ€ before it determines how the ruling applies in the state
    Liberty Counsel, in a brief on behalf of several family groups, contends there are four significant injuries occurring.
    And the brief argues there is precedent in the U.S. for a state Supreme Court to reject a โ€œU.S. Supreme Court mandate which is unlawful.โ€

    ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    What ever the Liberty Counsel argues, Counsel must bring Significant and sufficient legal proof recognizable enough and persuasive enough to show that homosexual couples have rights and privileges equal and one of the the same to those rights as heterosexual marriages by law. Notice the most imperative action which subjects homosexual couples to Equal rights under law and one that is crucial to the pursuit of happiness with an obligation to each other is marriage . which then begs the question how can homosexual couples pursue happiness and obtain the same equality as defined by law as heterosexual without marriage ,

  15. Jeff Cumberbatch Avatar
    Jeff Cumberbatch

    Are you suggesting that we should become a theocracy, Mr Bush Tea? Just asking, mind you. You know that you will have to effect this according to current constitutional and electoral law, don’t you?

    And what are these “inevitable consequences of the societal acceptance of the desecration of marriage”, as you so elegantly put it? Hellfire and brimstone?


  16. @ Dompey
    Clearly the Church does not want to understand such ruling but insist on trampling on individual rights against a backdrop of religious teaching which the supreme court resoundingly said NO, Also the SUPREME told the church once again in no Uncertain terms that it has no right or privilege of law to upsurge or undo or tweek any one rights to suffice its religious doctrine,
    Yes indeed the church has a moral right to speak out against those unethical practices that will impact negatively on society and rightfully so, However there is also a BOLD line of Equality that is necessary and equally as right to oppose when the church seeks the need and the permission of the State To stand on Holy Ground and trampled on the rights of any individual or group.


  17. A country that imposes religious/ spiritual laws on its peoples will be a country always in turmoil. Spiritual law should be practiced PRIVATELY by those who believe in it and not be imposed on those who choose not to believe. Why can’t this old JA called Bushtea and others understand this???? What you feel about your God is not necessarily shared by others! Your ancestors had their enslaver’s God beaten into them and followers like YOU can’t see that BEATING religious beliefs into people doesn’t work. Look at how it has destroyed the Black man and taught him to hate himself! People are seeing what religion and the Bible is all about. Man made God and wrote the bible, man made marriage. Wars start because countries try imposing their beliefs on those who refuse to buy into it religious or otherwise.. There should always be a separation of Church and State.


  18. Jeff Cumberbatch July 12, 2015 at 9:37 AM #…..Thank you and well said!

    The problem with these religious Zealots is that they believe that everyone MUST drink from the same cup with them to become intoxicated with their mumbo jumbo belief system in order for things to work.

    Bush tea is a confused old geyser who believes he has been sent by his God to minister to all on BU.


  19. The 1st Amendment of the United States Constition reads: Congress shall make no law respecting and establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. And what that simply means is that the federal, state and muncipical governments cannot implement any law regarding religion which forces it citizenry to worship in a specific manner. But even though Congress is instructed by the Constitution to reframing from instituting any law regarding religion. The Congress can still implement laws with respect to the application of such religion. For example: in the religion of Satanism, the Congess can implement a law or laws regarding human and animal sacrifices which in time gone by have been part and parcel of the religion of Satanism.


  20. Bush Tea July 12, 2015 at 8:33 AM #

    Ignorance of spiritual laws is no excuse.

    ””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

    which brings into focus those Spirituals Laws which were nonnegotiable and irrefutable written on a template of religious doctrine by scribes and pharisees teachers and believers of law who believe the best interest of the people was being served on doctrines to suppress and frightened in the name of God and yes deputy dawg there are many which have been cast aside and place among the annals of ignorance and suppression.think on those things


  21. Just imagine …The Donkey and The AC are having a conversation! ROTFL! AC and the Donkey suffer from insomnia so they might be sleep talking!


  22. Bush Tea
    Your first paragraph knocked the ball out of the park.


  23. @ David
    We do live in a secular world right?
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    What secular world is that?
    Boss…at some point we need to take an intelligent approach to the REALITIES of life on earth. We will always have those – like AC and Dompey – who, like primary-school-level ignoramuses that they are, continue to make fools of themselves trying to discuss thing that are way above their pay-grade, IQ and imagination….”they know not that they know not”

    BUT the FACT is that this “secular’ life has been conceptualised FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE. It was designed such that we CAN, INDEED …do as we wish…
    However the expectation is that we would be intelligent and wise enough to seek to do those things that ENHANCE our chances of success – both in terms of day-to-day happiness, economic progress, educational development and social harmony….and ultimately…that we would come to understand and embrace the even HIGHER aspects of having been lucky enough to have been born to experience ‘life on Earth’.

    Cuh Dear….
    every shiite that we have been doing so far have been disastrous….
    There is NO happiness… just more and more war…
    There is no economic progress…every body broke…
    There is no peace..
    …and there sure as hell is no social harmony…

    Mean it ain’t OBVIOUS that we are doing some shiite wrong…?
    …and when the ACs and the Dompeys not only dominate the conversation…but are actually the personalities RUNNING THINGS in government and other places….
    Well boss…YOU KNOW…the damn dog dead.

    This is NO SECULAR WORLD…..a bunch of dumb jackasses have promoted this fallacy now for centuries…. This world is a CRITICAL part of an elaborate SPIRITUAL exercise that required a temporary physical phase for the development and germination of a VERY special ingredient called “RIGHTEOUS CHARACTER” that could not have been created in any other manner….

    shiite man David…perspective…perspective…
    We are specks on a damn rock spinning wildly in space at unbelievable velocities among unknown billions of other entities spinning wildly in space….
    Our lives hang on a balance of millions of critical cycles and interdependencies – failure of ANY ONE of which will mean an end of life as we know it….

    This ‘life’ is clearly no end in itself – but a carefully designed and put together ‘MEANS to an END’ …and to ignore the ultimate raison d’รชtre and focus on seeking a ‘logical purpose’ of living a few years on a damn rock flying through space…. is THAT not madness?? ๐Ÿ™‚

    @ Jeff
    Are you suggesting that we should become a theocracy…
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Of course not… just that we think BEYOND the AC level…


  24. The 11th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States provides that those rights not granted to the Federal government are withheld by the States. Federal Law, through the Doctrine of Preemption, can trump State law, but only in those areas already granted to the Federal government.The question of whether the States intended to grant the Federal government authority over marriage is arguable? What is to be regretted is that this most recent decision is compared to Brown v Board of Education of Topeka 9-0 and Loving v Virginia 9-0. Unlike those unanimous decisions, the majority vote on this divided court 5-4 was provided by a justice, who it might be argued should have recused herself because of the obvious bias. Why is it that a single black robed lawyer in Washington DC can provide a vote to impose her legal/moral? beliefs on the population of the United States. But robed (of whatever color) clerics, pastors speaking in defence of moral precepts, are shouted down in the town square (media) by a vociferous and perhaps biased and self serving minority.


  25. Bushie CALM DOWN you all over the place. The minute any country starts mixing state business with religion we will have failure. “This is NO SECULAR WORLDโ€ฆ..a bunch of dumb jackasses have promoted this fallacy now for centuriesโ€ฆ.” Can you name the Theocracies that have worked? Yet you claim that you don’t want one. MAKE UP YUH MIND MAN! How come countries like Sweden, Norway, Denmark Canada are working for its citizens??? The minute any Religious dogma gets involved it RUINS EVERYTHING! Can’t you see that Religion appeals to the insane? And that the insane are prepared to go to war for their insanity??? Religion appeals to the weak minded and there are weak minded people in this world. Has your Perfect God ever solved the world’s problems??? Stop fooling yourself. It will NEVER ! Religious domination and Political domination create havoc for mankind. Time to take another route.

    Man go lie down and sip some of the Mrs’ Bush tea.


  26. Printer’s devil – 10th Amendment.


  27. Donald

    What do you mean by whether the states intended to grand the federal government the authority over same sex marriage? Did the Southern states desired to grant blacks the right to vote? Of course not, but the Supreme Court stepped in on the prompting from the federal government and granted blacks that right through the Civil War Amendments of the 1860’s.


  28. Donald, what a lot of unlettered persons of the American Constitution do not know is that prior to the Civil War Amendments of the 1860’s and the Women Suffrage Movement of the 1920, blacks as well as women voted on the local level in the few of the liberal states up North. So Donald, the rights of women and blacks to the suffrage as was the same sex marriage couples were all state level issues until they all became issues of national importance which required a federal resolution.


  29. Donald, states such a South Carolina passed laws barring blacks from enter into that state. But the 14th Amendments brought a stop to those unjust laws. The Amendment reads: and this is coming from my personal memory bank: all persons born and naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the state wherein their reside. (Here is the most important part of this amendment) No state shall make or enforce any law( paid close attention to this absolute in this amendment) which would abridged the Previleges or Immunities of a citizen of the United States. That Amendment brought an end to South Carolina injunction against blacks enter into that state, as this new ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court intend to do for same sex marriage.


  30. @ Bush Tea July 12, 2015 at 8:33 AM #
    Firstโ€ฆ
    There are three basic classes of โ€˜Lawsโ€™.
    1 โ€“ โ€˜Lawsโ€™ made by man.
    2 โ€“ Physical Laws of Nature.
    3 โ€“ Spiritual Laws of God.
    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

    No problem with the first two but who exactly is laying down the “Spiritual Laws of God.” My God, your God? What if I don’t have a God? What if I am an atheist. You want to impose your God’s Spiritual laws on me and others. Is he talking directly to you and others? Is it from the Bible?

    And I say all of the above with all due respect to you and your views.


  31. “…but who exactly is laying down the โ€œSpiritual Laws of God…”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Excellent question Nostradamus….but a VERY simple and obvious answer…

    Clearly not ‘Your God’…
    Definitely NOT “Bushie’s” God…
    …and most definitively NOT whatever those who “don’t have a God”…have…

    But the BIG BOSS ENGINEERS WHO DESIGNED, BUILT, AND OWN THE FARM.

    First thing is that Bushie DON’T have a God…. just a big-ass whacker..
    Not sure what ‘God’ you have, but if it is one of those things in a Genie Bottle PLEASE keep it away from the whacker – it may get hurt… LOL

    Nostra D,
    People have their own ‘GOD’ in much the same way that we have our own Gravity.
    We don’t HAVE any God…. God HAVE us…. we are “the sheep of his pasture” just like we are totally and involuntarily subjected to gravity, and to the need for oxygen, and the need for sunlight.
    It matters NOT what specific BELIEF you or Bushie may hold… Just like, before the concept of gravity was understood, different ‘beliefs’ as to its existence, origin, impact and effect were just that…MEANINGLESS BELIEFS. GRAVITY IS GRAVITY. GOD IS GOD.

    Those who choose ‘not to believe’; those who choose to believe shiite; those who believe Bushie; those who believe Jesus; those who believe Mohammed; those who believe AC…. are all sheep in the same pasture; and whose ‘beliefs’ are about as impactful as are those of Lowdown Hoad’s goats in influencing the overall aims and objectives of Lowdown’s business plan….

    Same thing Boss…
    … a goat named AC may feel aggrieved that Lowdown extracts milk every damn day for sale to Caswell…and kills a billy goat every now and again for stew…
    Lotta difference THAT attitude makes to the scheme of things…LOL

    If on the other hand, it was possible for some goats to come to an understanding of Hoad’s GRAND PLAN, and this plan provided opportunities for wise goats to be transformed to a different level of existence…..wuh shiite skippa…. then this creates a whole new ball game – don’t you think…? ๐Ÿ™‚


  32. @ Deputy Dawg alias bush sh,it .Why don’t you “get it” through Your thick watermelon head that ,individual Right of the land supersedes spiritual rights of an individual Furthermore given that there are differing religious sects with differing religious laws within the USA it would only make sense to Have One law written within the Constitution to protect everyone Individual Right.
    A society without proper governance to pull back or harness is a society headed for danger, The Fact being that the Supreme Court stood once again and block the influence of the Church’s decision to impede! or to harness an individual human rights which would have caused a negative rippling and cascading effect as the Church relied on its new found authority to repeal or overthrow those cases proteced under the Equal Rights Act e, g abortion or even divorce laws.Unless one is a Neanderthal living in antiquated times one would not understand the ruling a ruling of checks and balances that keeps society protected and removes power from those who if given would takes society back to the days when the power of the church dictated with an iron fist.


  33. @Bush Tea

    Your point is understood by many. The challenge perhaps is the fact individual spirituality is located in different relms and therefore there will always be difference in individual perspective. This translates to tension on the collective. Perhaps it is the crucible thrown up by life experience we have to tolerate until BBE intervenes :-).


  34. Bush Tea

    I don’t know where or when Bushie attended university because it becomes crystal clear that he hasn’t taken philosophy, for had he wouldn’t he have known of the theologian Thomas Aquinas Hierarchy of Laws? Aquinas, indentifies four such categories of laws and not three as Bushie fatally assumed. He wrote extensively on the:
    1) Eternal law
    2) Natural law
    3) Human law
    4) Divine law.


  35. @Bush Tea

    Bushie boy, to argue religion, is to argue from a standpoint of ignorance because there no possible proof but via the metaphysical medium to validate the existence of God. So what Christians like you and me do? Well, we argue from the standpoint of morality of the New Testament as a basis to lend credence or affirmation to the existence of God; Bushie boy, it is the morality of the New Testament that the theist finds his or her true validity and the legitimacy, but beyond that the true proof of the Christain religion and all that it stand to represents falls flat under the weight of empirical scrutiny.


  36. What so moral about a parent stoning the child to death if the child is homosexual
    That was an established and practiced law in the BIBLE,


  37. Bush Tea

    There is an argument out there in the atheist camp which calls for God the miracle worker to reattach an amputee missing limb or limbs. The claim is that we haven’t read or heard of instances in former times, or in our present time where a preacher prayed to the Living God for the reattachment of an amputee limb or limbs.


  38. AC

    I have never heard neither have I read of parents stoning their own children because their happened to be homosexuals. I have read the Old Testament, as well as the New testament vehement objection against the practice of sodomy.


  39. AC

    Prior to the Leviticus Laws and Ten Commandments sodomy was morally acceptable. It was even morally acceptable to married your haft sister on the father side of the family; Abraham married his haft sister Sarah before it was a sin to do so.


  40. The Federal Courts in United States as a matter of jurisdiction are restricted to “federal” questions of law. Citizenship and rights of the citizens of the United States extended/reconfirmed? by the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments were obviously federal legislative action. The federal question here in the homosexual group of cases, Obergefell v Hodges, is does the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment REQUIRE a state to license a marriage between 2 people of the same sex when their marriage was lawfully licensed and performed out of State. The overreach in this 5-4 decision is already drawing legislative, administrative and judicial pushback as compared with the commanding 9-0 decision in Loving v Virginia.


  41. Donald

    Any denial of civil rights and civil liberties is matter of federal concern one would think. So therefore, if the state of Connecticut for example, validate the same sex marriage and the state of New York invalidate such union, isn’t that a denial of either the human-rights, civil-rights or the civil-liberties?


  42. look dompey the bible explicity states in the old testament that if a man lies with another man

    If a man lie also with mankind, as he lieth with a woman,…. Is guilty of the sin of sodomy, this is a breach of the law in Leviticus 18:22,

    both of them have committed an abomination; he that lies, and he that is lain with, both consenting to perpetrate the abominable wickedness; which may well be called an abomination, being contrary to nature, and more than brutish, for nothing of that kind is to be found among brutes:

    they shall surely be put to death; if he that is lain with is not forced their blood shall be upon them and be slain by stoning.


  43. Donald

    Do you remember when the free slave Dred Scott petition the Supreme Court for his citizenship, and the court ruled that the free-slave was mere property specified by eleven clauses in the American Constitution? So even though Scott,s petition met the federal criterion, Chief Justice Taney ruled that Dred Scott was less than human and that the Constitution viewed Scott as property.

  44. St George's Dragon Avatar
    St George’s Dragon

    There is of course only one real religion, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. All others worship false gods:
    http://www.venganza.org/about/


  45. AC

    But where does the Bible speaks of stoning children for sodomy? Wasn’t that your original question to me AC? I know of the Leviticus laws regarding sodomy, but no way in those laws does it speaks of stoning kids which was your original question, and of which I replied that I never heard neither have I read of any such thing in the Bible.


  46. AC
    It also must be noted AC that those Leviticus laws were written specifically for the Nation of Israel, and their therefore, had little or no bearing on the hedonistic nations around and about the Nation of Israel. Question: before the Leviticut laws and the Ten Commandments, what was God position as well as the Nation of Israel on homosexuality?


  47. AC

    We know that God in all His divinity and royality required from man a divine standard of morality. But prior to the written Word how did Abraham, Moses and Aaron conveyed these divine precepts to the people, and what had they all taught the Nation of Israel regarding homosexuality prior to the Leviticus codes and the Ten Commandments?


  48. dompey the punishment of death in the bible was done by stoning
    there is law that gave parents the consent to have their children to be . i will however give way to the specification as to whether it was prescribed to sodomy, however the permission of parents having their children stoned for acts which laws deemed immoral was permitted

    Deuteronomy 21:18โ€“21 expands on the law:

    If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. And they shall say to the elders of his city, โ€œThis son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.โ€ Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it

    however i believe that the act of permission also places the guilt on those who gave the permission.
    good nite Dompey,


  49. @Jeff Cumberbatch “the angst is owed to a perception that the ruling serves only to adulterate the sanctity of traditional marriage”

    In truth traditional marriage is adulterated. PRINCIPALLY by the adulterous parties within the traditional marriages.


  50. @Jeff Cumberbatch “the parties never enjoyed the โ€œbenefit of clergyโ€ฆor of laity for that matter.”

    Long, long, long before the laity [that is the state]or the clergy [that is the church] ever existed men and women have been getting it together [and men and men too, and women and women]

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