Each country is entitled to the ‘exclusive’ rights within their 200 mile EXCLUSIVE economic zone. Barbados, Trinidad and Tobago and most other regional states are party to the Law of the Sea Treaties that provide for those rights. Barbados has no right to give the impression that Barbadian fishermen have any right AT ALL to venture into that exclusive zone without penalty. In the EEZ, the coastal state has the sole right of exploitation of the resources contained therein under international law of the sea treaties to which we are all party.

So when fishermen do so, let it be clear that they do so at their own peril. I don’t agree that anyone should be defending it. Unless and until CARICOM has the political will to come up with a Common Fisheries Regime and countries agree on the shared use of common resources (like the sea) Barbadian fishermen need to respect other peoples space.

Flying fish are a migratory fish species and while they spawn in the waters off Barbados, they migrate to the warmer waters off Tobago as they get older. Barbadian fishermen understand that and follow the fish to their habitats, but that happens to be the coastal space of another state and they have no right under any law to do so. They can and will be arrested and noone can fault the Trinis for it except for sensationalism purposes because we have allowed for too many years, the notion to prevail that we went to the Arbitral Tribunal over fishing boundaries when in actual fact that was little more than a secondary issue. More importantly the finding of the tribunal re the fishing issue was that the two countries should come to some common agreement on the matter. So there exists no framework to allow Bajan fishermen into Trinidadian waters.

Lisa R. Elcock

Flying fish – Wikipedia

It was not too long ago when what appeared to be all of Jamaica dropped like a ton of bricks on Barbados.  Not to be left out, Guyana, St. Vincent and other neighbours had a lot say when Barbados sought to enforced its sovereign right to protect its borders.

The recent arrest of Barbadian fisherman by T&T authorities serves to remind us that Barbados finds itself in a very lonely place in Caricom. To present the blunt argument that the Barbadian fishermen perpetrated an illegal act is to be dishonest in the argument. This longstanding T&T/Barbados fishing agreement straddles both BLP and DLP governments and leads one to the conclusion that there is no desire on the part of T&T to close an agreement. There are much bigger fish to fry in a pan which is full of oil.

Of course this is a golden opportunity for the politicos to do what they do best, muddy the waters. The irony in this case is that Barbados has led from the front in pushing CSME under the former Prime Minister. A consequence of our CSME-friendly strategy is that Barbados’ borders became easy to access by all and sundry and there was a huge inflow of T&T investment into Barbados. Most if not all of Barbados ‘Fortune 500’ companies have been acquired by T&T capital. One would have thought that back in the Arthur era was the best time to make a stand by calling T&T to the table to finalize an agreement. In recent days Arthur in one of the few times he has taken a bipartisan position has signalled the BLP opposition is prepared to stand with the government in taking a position against T&T.

Politics does make for strange bedfellows!

155 responses to “Barbados Should Tell T&T To ‘Go To Hell’ Too!”


  1. yes, there is sufficient evidence to indicate that the previous government did make an effort to find some resolution to the fishing issue with trinidad and tobago without success and which might have led them out of frustratio to take trinidad to the court of arbitration in related matter which did not bring closure to the fishing dispute. so, they failed but we cannot say they did not try. what annoyed me though was mr thompson’s seemingly supportive comments for trinidad’s decision in an interview after the arbitration ruling and his ill advised position of politicising the issue by fulminating on the election platform much to the delight of supporters that the dispute could be solved down consett bay over a bowl of cold soup.also, not too long ago when cornered on down to brasstacks about the situation with the fishing dispute which was his specific mandate as caricom ambassador, mr kellman let it be known that he was getting fish and the dispute was nothing to worry about because fish was plentiful and he had bought 100 fish or some gibberage like that


  2. @Balance

    What need to be done to have a resolution?If Trinidad is not interested in having a resolution what can we do? The idea of a fishing agreement is mor than 20 years? Balance your reasoning on what can be done since diplomacy has failed.


  3. desperate times means desperate measures and it is in those times that the chorus for resolve is sung and heard the loudest. the desperation of these fisherman in these hard economics times led them into the waters of T&T which should be enough cause for concern among our people it is not good enough to say that they were wrong even thought they were but it is also equally wrong for the parties involved not to find a solution.I tip my hat to OSA for strongly suggesting that we as a people can send a message to the government of T&T that an agreement on this matter should be finalised and that message can be sent through boycotting of their products.


  4. Arthur is easily playing politics here going into an election year because he knows most Bajans are sick and fedup with this fishing agreement mess and it strikes an emotional chord with them.


  5. The difference between T&T and Barbados is simple, T&T are action people, Barbados is talk people, therefore while we yap and make a noise for seven days, T&T quietly do what they think best until “thy kingdom come.” We bajans will always then be on the recieving end. T&T would buy up Barbados and we bajans will continue to support them, while our fishermen will soon have to get a licence to fish just off the B’town Harbour


  6. David maybe so but a voice and many voices needs to be heard on this issue and that is where we the people would make a difference for in the long run it is the bajans would are going to suffer through the the heavy hands of T&T law it is inevitable that given the severe economic times we are having they will be more fisherman willing to take the risk of fishing in those waters than to go hungry.So far diplomacy has not work and the peoples voices must be heard loud or clear. Agreement or Boycott! BTW it would take more than this issue for OSA to win the election under his adfministration he had a “Bite at the Apple” and failed so let him have his fifteen minutes if it makes a difference that is all that matters rather than risking the lives and fate of our fisherman in the hands of T&T


  7. @ac

    It is not that this is the issue which will push the BLP over the top but more about every little issue which gains popularity in what maybe a close election is crucial. It is a pity it has to come down to politics with fishermen being at the shitty end of the stick.


  8. I for one have already started to boycott Trini products. In Bajan parlance “dem trinis cuh guh ta france”


  9. “Ever little issue that gains popularity” Is telling me that the electorate would be voting with the carrot and stick mentality . i hope we as a people have come further than that . Yes david politics is not rationale . it is only about self interest .The lives of our fishermen are in the hands of T&T and the politics of the day is whether or not our government is going to be caught hook line and sinker on this issue before another fisherman is reeled in by the T&T authorities,

  10. 2nd Class Caricom Citizen Avatar
    2nd Class Caricom Citizen

    The Trinis have shown that they are prepared to take punitive action against wrongdoing by Barbadian fishermen. They should, however, realise that many of their so-called “manufacturers” are chronic breachers of the rules of the Caricom treaty concering origin of their products. Many of the garments entering this country from Trinidad are in fact made in China or other Far Eastern countries and simply re-labelled “Made in Trinidad” in order to benefit from the duty-free status enjoyed within Caricom. This has been brought to the attention of the Barbados authorities, together with concrete evidence. Isn’t it time to have these goods seized and destroyed? The message that the Trinis send to the rest of Caricom is that “We do as we please, and the rest of you do as we please.” It’s time for strong action. Will this government or any other government in Barbados take such action? Nah!

  11. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    It is simple really.

    Keep out of Trinidad’s waters.

    I have a Mango tree in my back which bears lovely fruit almost year round. Woe– betide anyone from outside my house that I catch up in my mango tree without my permission.

    Trinidad has a right to protect its waters!!!!


  12. Let us balance the equation:

    Bajan fishermen keep out of T&T waters + Bajan politicians deliver on promise to consummate a deal with T&T government = Integrity


  13. To david:
    Why are you making OSA statement into a political issue. All of us here would agree that Bajans have to stop talking and take punitive action against T&T. I do not see this as any election winning issue for OSA. But how long shall we drink their fruit juices, wear their clothes, sell them our land and businesses with out in any way demonstrating that they are not being good neighbors.When our currency was tottering under OSA, I was in T$T and they refused to take bajan dollars; we had to travel with US dollars. Do we need an “occupy T&T movement” here.


  14. I wish that , in the same vein. Barbados should round up all illegal Trinidadians fishing in Barbados territorial nightclubs and swan street stores and charge and treat them in the same way that our beloved fishermen were treated in Trinidad,
    Barbadians must understand that we have to forget about CSME and take care of what is OURS: our poor, differently able persons, sick,elderly and children. We cannot continue to lead the fight for integration when it continues to be clear that like the Federation each man is for his own


  15. @lemuel

    Have to be political with OSA because up to now he had not made any statement on th status of a fishing agreement.

  16. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ Carson C. Cadogan | December 7, 2011 at 8:07 AM |
    How do you keep the smart monkeys away from the mangoes?
    Maybe there is some kind of fraternal agreement: Monkey takes 10% and CCC keeps the rest. Maybe such an agreement can work with the flying fish but with the ratios more evenly split!


  17. To david:
    I appreciate you being up front about your non support of OSA and your support of Mia and the DLP, but how can OSA make a statement about the fishing agreement when in his 15 years none was forth coming. Like the DLP, the BLP played the fool with T&T, and we are still at phase 1 of any agreement. T&T have too many “things” going on in Barbados for we to take this sitting down. We need to “occupy” against ALL of T&T things.


  18. @lemmie

    The DLP appointed Kellman Caricom Ambassador which proved to be a waste of time. During his tenure what level of accountability did OAS placed on the government and foreign service?

  19. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ lemuel | December 7, 2011 at 8:48 AM |
    “Barbados for we to take this sitting down. We need to “occupy” against ALL of T&T things.”

    Good talk about standing up for our rights!
    But how do we proceed from here? T&T supplies us with fuel, owns and controls the majority of food importation and distribution corporations and a sizable involvement in our financial system, hotel plant and real estate.
    Captain Lemuel the seas are rough, tell us what to do to get us out of this economic brig!


  20. To Miller:
    It is a good thing I do not think like you. When I talk about “occupy”, I am speaking about the average citizen not supporting their products. You seem to think to a simple boycott is impossible. If we started right now, in two to three weeks T&T would be responding. They may control all you say but they do not control where, when and how any Bajan shop. I have read here where many of you were saying that Britain and the US do not need tourist, but right after 911 when tourist stop going to the US and Britain remember how they bent over (you would like that part) to woo tourists to come back. 300 barrels are coming to Barbados every day form the US; do the maths if you think that is something in this economic plight to sneeze at. This world is too integrated for that macho play by these so called mighty powers and especially T&T who have misspent their oil money and now the economy is running on drug money.


  21. To David:
    You know opposition politics too. The opposition normally does little or nothing while waiting to their turn to drink at the political money trough. Your girl Mia was the leader of the her majesty opposition all the time when Kellman was promising and achieving nothing.

  22. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ lemuel | December 7, 2011 at 9:11 AM |
    “When I talk about “occupy”, I am speaking about the average citizen not supporting their products.”
    Oh yeh! I know what you mean!
    Talk cheap! Bajans boycott processed colon cancer causing food and gas for their prized vehicles!
    Show me the money!
    The day Bajans stop bending over backwards (you too would like that turn of phrase!) and learn to accept some pain arising from the much needed adjustments in their material lifestyles the time would then come for them to put to good use their much vaunted ‘superior’ education.
    But we as a people are easily fooled. Our “master/servant” upbringing has conditioned us to be easily exploited and conned. Look how a T&T conman managed to use a local servant boy to trick thousand of Bajans into parting with their hard earned wages!

  23. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    millertheanunnaki(May2012or is it June2012)
    “How do you keep the smart monkeys away from the mangoes?”

    I have a shotgun, just like the Trinidadians have a fully armed Coast Guard!!!!

    Tell Bajans to keep out of Trinidad’s waters unless they have permission to fish.


  24. I keep telling wunnuh so. West Indian Governments and some of their citizens do not have any good thoughts for Barbados, bajans; and I will always hold true to my approach in life. I will never attempt to friends with people who for whatever reason don’t like me. They can always kiss my a2s.

  25. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ Carson C. Cadogan | December 7, 2011 at 10:12 AM |

    Well “shotgun” CCC. I agree that laws must be obeyed. However, if they are proving to be so onerous and at the stark disadvantage of one or more parties then they ought to be changed to reflect fairness or equity.
    That is why Bajans voted for this administration to bring about this “level playing field”. Now with two special ambassadors to cook the fish soup at conse(n)t bay and almost 4 years baiting to hook the fish we would have thought that time was longer than the line and this fishy matter would have been one election promise to keep. Or should we wait until after May 2012 (Oh, sorry! the “seethru” man made me do it) June 2012 for the fish to be hooked and landed at ‘Ye Mermaid’s Inn’ in Oistins like the January 1652 no taxation without representation agreement.
    Now don’t you go blaming the “seethru” man for the doldrums since he too, like a drunken sailor, is shouting to Man Friday “land ahoy! land ahoy”!
    So CCC, when will the bell be rung, or should we say the “shotgun” fired? January 2012? Or are you throwing the fishing line 200 miles out to sea hoping to bring home the fishy “bacon” to land at Brandons in January 2013- if we are still here!

  26. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    All I am saying is that Bajan fishermen have to respect Trinidad’s waters.

    Far too many Bajans feel that because they can break laws here in Barbados and get away with it that they can do the same in Trinidad waters. Unlucky for them the Trinidadians are determined to enforce their laws. I tip my hat to them.

    Let me also say that those fishermen are are lucky. They could have been cut to ribbons by bullets from the the machine guns of the Trinidad Coast Guard.

    There is no fishing agreement so keep to hell out of Trinidadian waters.

    After the last administration won their case at the Court of Arbitration in England they were told by Judges to quickly conclude a fishing agreement with Trinidad. They failed to do so. I guess Owen”seethru”Arthur had better thing to do with his time. Hence the current situation.


  27. Here comes the political hogwash.

    Tell the fishermen to keep out of T&T waters but who the hell tells the BLP and DLP we are tired of the political opportunism which the fishing agreement has been used? We are just so tired of the BS.

    Here it is the T&T government is playing the ass on this matter for years and instead of focusing on removing the politics we heap bullshite on the fishermen. In the same way fishermen should keep out of T&T waters so too our politicians should stop playing the ass with the people.

  28. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    Whether you like or not they is no fishing agreement between Barbados and Trinidad.

    Bajans caught fishing in Trinidad waters are breaking Trinidad laws and the Trinidadians have a duty to enforce their laws.

    Plain and simple!!!!

    If the Barbados Labour Party had done their duty then this would not still be an issue today.

    Look at who represented Barbados in London at the Court Of arbitration:-

    The Hon. Mia Amor Mottley QC, Deputy Prime Minister, Attorney General and Minister Of Home affairs, Agent for Barbados.
    Mr. Robert Volterra, co-agent, Counsel and Advocate, Latham & Watkins
    Professor Sir Elihu Lauterpacht CBE QC, Counsel and Advocate
    Professor Michael Reisman, Counsel and Advocate
    Mr. Jon Paulsson, Counsel and Advocate
    Sir Henry Forde QC, Counsel and Advocate
    Mr. Stephen Fietta, Counsel and Advocate
    Mr. Adrian Cummins QC Counsel and Advocate
    Dr. David Berry Counsel
    Ms. Megan Addis, Counsel and Advocate
    Mr. Francois Jackman Senior Foreign Services Officer
    Mr. Tyrone Brathwaite, Foreign Service Officer
    Mr. Christopher Parker, Fisheries Biologist
    Ms. Angela Watson President of Barbados Association of Fisherfolk, Fisherman/Boat owner
    Mr. Anderson Kinch, Fisherman/Boat owner
    Mr. Oscar Price, Latham $ Watkins
    Mr. Dick Gent, UK Hydrographic Office
    Ms. Michelle Pratley, asst. Latham $ Watkins
    Ms. Claudina Vranken, Lathan $ Watkins
    Mr. Edwin Pollard, High Commissioner for Barbados in London

    Once I see Henry in there I know that this lot cost Barbados a pretty penny.
    Could not the stupid Barbados Labour Party have use this same team to negotiate with the Trinidadians for a fishing agreement? They were successful before I am sure that they would have been successful again.

  29. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ Carson C. Cadogan | December 7, 2011 at 11:31 AM

    CCC, why are you so political purblind? We beg you not to put the blame solely on the doorsteps of the old brigand. There is something called “continuity of government” which this administration should adhere to as in the case of the Barrack debt. Both parties have taken the fisher folks for a far out swim with no life buoy in sight.
    So you nemesis “seethru” was incapable of striking an agreement! But then we were in forex heaven and could shortsightedly and stupidly import “mock” fish from over and away even as far China.
    So what about the bowl of soup hogwash and kellmonomics arrogant dismissal of the interests of those fisher folks who really took the words and promises of those politicians to heart? Why can’t you too haul T&T over the coals for dragging their feet regarding the CCJ? Don’t you think this is the biggest paradox of the CSME fiasco making that project look like the laughing stock of Jurisprudence?

    But these are poor folks and don’t possess law degrees so the CSME facility is not for them. But trust us, these same simple folks will be the saviours of this place in the coming years. Remember, these people can feed themselves and don’t require much to survive.
    Go ahead and deprecate them and wish that the bullets cut them into pieces. But death from starvation is a slow and painful process to endure. All we have is sea water and sand (and your mangoes to raid, of course, lol)!

  30. George C. Brathwaite Avatar
    George C. Brathwaite

    @David

    Your frustration is understandable. However, if you and BU readers are practical, you would realise that under successive governments, Barbados has indeed taken the task to T & T. If you read the intervention made by John Williams, you would see first-hand that the buck realistically stops with T & T. In fact, if you see the situation from their eyes, you too may see that it is a long record of gamesmanship predicated on the standard in international relations of self-interest and zero-sum politics. Barbados needs to approach this agreement fiasco, not from one of expecting an easy agreement, but from the position that we too have some geopolitical and market bargaining chips that we SHALL use if the situation necessitates such — I think it does.

  31. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    All of you who want to encourage Bajan fishermen to go and fish in Trinidad waters are putting the lives of the said fishermen at risk.


  32. @George

    Yes indeed we are frustrated.

    Just imagine how the fisherfolk feel huh?

    Agree with you we have geopolitical clout and we should stop talking and use it. This is not about the fisherfolk any longer bit about T&T laughing at our half baked politicians.

  33. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    millertheanunnaki

    “(and your mangoes to raid, of course, lol)!”

    “ef i ketch yuh in muh manga tree, it gine be me an” you”

  34. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    “This is not about the fisherfolk any longer bit about T&T laughing at our half baked politicians.”

    Starting with Owen”seethru”Arthur!!!!!!

  35. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    I still can not understand why you are frustrated.

    Trinidad is the only country whose waters contains fish?

    Why don’t the Vincentians, St. Lucians, Guyanese, Dominicans, Grenadians, Antiguans have this problem?

    Have you ever stop to analyse this situation?
    What about the waters to the East of Barbados?

    Besides flying fish why do Bajan fishermen have this fixation with Trinidadian waters?

    There is no where else that they can fish?

  36. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    I just don’t get it, there is a whole big Ocean out there with fish, no one told the Bajan fishermen that as yet?

  37. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    How come the Japanese and Taiwanese fishermen can catch so much fish from Caribbean waters and not Bajan Fishermen?

    What is this saying?

  38. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ George C. Brathwaite | December 7, 2011 at 12:11 PM |
    “…that we too have some geopolitical and market bargaining chips that we SHALL use if the situation necessitates such — I think it does.”

    By George, this is very serious business! Nothing to go fishing about!
    It is felt that T&T perceives this administration as currently very vulnerable economically and financially. Given the recent uncalled for and unfair tongue lashings received from fellow CSME members and ensuing diplomatic gaffes Barbados needs to be more assertive and demand better treatment and greater respect from those that have benefited from our charity and open door policy. Very little was put in the path of T&T in taking over the commanding heights of this economy thanks to the selfish and myopic greed of the local traditional business oligarchy, and greasy palms of the political and bureaucratic directorate. The average Bajan does not deserve this kind of treatment.
    So George, tell us what is the value of those chips or aces in the hole that we can hold unto waiting for the fish & chips casino talk shop to open!


  39. I do not know why people are calling Owen seymour Arthur’s name here. When I review the sequence of events, the only person I see up front and center is Mia Amor Mottley, as head of the expensive team which cost Barbadsos about 2 million dollars and Leader of the Opposition when Kellman was trying his best to get an agreement. She, Mia, is personal friends with Kamla Pm T&T ( they does drink rum together) why doesn’t she use her potential prime ministerial charms and skills to get this agreement in place. I shall not place one fault at the door of the DLP. If Kamla does “smoke” too then let them break out the peace chalice. And cause some buds to crackle.


  40. To Miller:
    do not get a heart attack this whole situation is caught between foolishness and callous political stupidity.

  41. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    Let me ask, can Bajan fishermen fish anywhere else other than in Trinidadian waters?

    Do Bajan Fishermen have a God given right to fish in Trinidadian waters?


  42. @lemuel

    The Mia led team was about marking previously disputed boundaries to pave the way for oil exploration. A fishing agreement was secondary.

    Don’t you think the geopolitical clout which George refers would have been better utilized when our economy was in boom mode?

  43. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ Carson C. Cadogan | December 7, 2011 at 12:27 PM

    You think I am so blind drunk as to climb your mango tree! The reason why the monkeys or neighbours don’t raid the tree is because they are as “sour” as green gooseberries or tamarinds. We prefer islandgirl “sweet-sweet” mangoes But there is a man that can act as a decoy if we had any plans of raiding your mangoes. Bring along “seethru” and leave him outside your house. You would assume that he is in the usual inebriated state! While you are ranting and raving and blaming him for every problem in Bim under the Sun we will train a few of the young monkeys found in george street to climb the tree and pick the mangoes. We give them 50% of the pickings and we keep 50% to give to the hungry fisher folks you want to send to the rough and choppy waters of the Atlantic Ocean.

    But here is a profitable investment idea for the NIS. Invest our money in some sophisticated fishing trawlers to ply the Atlantic while at the same time engaging the CSME facilitated services of the T&T Coast Guard to machine gun the Japanese and Taiwanese (can’t touch the Chinese) for the blatant violation of our rights and gross over exploitation of our fish resources found within our 200 miles economic zone.


  44. To David:
    Sometimes, it seems as if straining to be wise and seen as very very bright, George talks a lot of foolishness. We have something T&T have, not the other way around. If ,as we have done, we allow them to buy every thing in sight, where is this clout or can this thing be better describe as a fluff. The only thing we may have is the potential access to T&T oil fields through the sea. We just need to ban doing business with them a the retail end so that the frighten politician and still go there and break brad and blame us common folk. I am not buying anything made in T&T.

  45. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    millertheanunnaki

    “But here is a profitable investment idea for the NIS. Invest our money in some sophisticated fishing trawlers to ply the Atlantic”

    Lord have mercy!!!!!!

    I can’t believe you said that. From the time you started writing on this blog until now, this is most important thing that you have ever said.

    Bravo!!!!

    That is the point that I was slowly getting to.

    I tip my hat to you.

    Not only the Atlantic but elsewhere as well. Lobby the Banks in Barbados to make funds available to the fisher folk to invest in bigger, better equip boats, where the Caribbean waters is their fishing ground. Where they can fish without interference.


  46. To Carson cadogan:
    I would agree to NIS funds invested to allow fisher folk to upgrade their fishing capacity rather than the four seasons project. When the BLP and DLP done destroy this country, these fisher folk shall feed us. I f you do not eat fish you better start.

  47. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    By now the same Fisherfolk Assoc. should own two or three large vessels that can stay out to sea for two weeks or more.

    Instead of having everyone owning a little “moses” fishermen should join together and purchase larger vessels and as shareholders whatever profits the vessels make will be divided between them.

  48. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    A $50millon loan to the fisher folk would make a hell of a difference.

    But you see they have never asked for a loan. They are all happy with their little “moses” and being caught by the Trinidadians, they have not yet learned to think outside the box.

  49. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    We would not even need four seasons!!!!!

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