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Israel’s Right To Defend Its 1967 Borders

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Submitted by Charles Knighton

The editorial in the Nation of May 25th What shall become of the Palestinians reaches the conclusion that “all this talk of peace in the Middle East for over 30 years is nothing more than a sham“, laying blame for this state of affairs solely on Israel’s refusal to withdraw to its 1967 borders, borders which Israel asserts would invite attack from its Arab neighbours. Your editorial [Nation] suggests Israel has conjured up this rationale from whole cloth, as its true motivation is to maintain control of the fertile Jordan Valley.

The 1967 borders are essentially the same borders mandated by the United Nations with the creation of the Jewish state in 1948.  From 1948 to 1967 Israel was set upon by Arab armies, each time repulsing these onslaughts while maintaining their precarious but legally mandated borders. Had that been the end of the Arab aggressions not only against Israel but a United Nations mandate as well, the currently contested lands would have remained under Arab control, including the fertile Jordan Valley.

The surprise Arab attack initiating the 1967 Yom Kippur War, though again resulting in an Arab defeat, forced Israel to ponder the strategic weaknesses of its mandated border, which leads us to the currently disputed territory Israel only then occupied as a buffer.  It is ironic to say the least that the Arab world now desires a United Nations’ mandate defining borders for a Palestinian state when the same body’s mandate for a Jewish state was ignored.

Though certainly not faultless in its actions over the years, Israel has always been clear that a return to its 1967 borders rests solely on the willingness of its Arab neighbours to guarantee its right to exist peacefully, a guarantee which has never been forthcoming.  The issue has never been about the 1967 border but rather the existence of Israel behind any border at all. Thus, talk of peace in the Middle East is indeed a sham, but not for the reason your editorial alleges.

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100 responses to “Israel’s Right To Defend Its 1967 Borders”

  1. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    islandgal246 | May 28, 2011 at 8:20 AM |

    Techie said…..”Evangelical Christians need Israel more than Israel needs them.
    Without the biblical reference of Israel, all their dogma is meaningless.”

    Very enlightening point Techie, but that still doesn’t solve the problem of Israel’s existence. Is Israel going to disappear from the world map for there to be peace?

    @ IG26…

    With all due respect, I do not see the ME situation though the religious lens of others.
    What I see is a country and people who suffered by the hands of the Nazis and were given a homeland by the then colonial powers who controlled the world.
    IMHO, Israel has milked this cow continuously over decades, under the guise of self defence. This I find ludicrous as no one has ever won a war against them and they have the full backing of the western world, financially and militarily.
    Over the years their greed has become obvious and the bully was created. They now act with impunity and disregard the very rules set up by the ones who created and protected them.
    This is not to say that the Palestinians are blameless, they too have added greatly to the problem.
    The continued injustices and lack of equality will always result in chaos but who will really have the balls to reign in the bully and truly seek peace?

  2. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    @ David….

    Maybe that truly describes the whole ME situation…no?

  3. kiki Avatar
    kiki

    @ King ♔ David ✡ (aka DofBU)
    Your title is kind of oxymoronically Wrong too, for true
    surely
    “Israel’s Right To Defend Its 1967 Borders” should read
    “Israel’s WRONG To Defend Its 1967 Borders”

  4. David Avatar
    David

    Wooooaaah, hold on!

     

    Arab League seeks UN recognition of Palestine

    Last Modified: 28 May 2011 21:34

     

    Abbas had previously said that Netanyahu’s US speech had "torpedoed" any chance of UN negotiation [AFP]

    The Arab League has said it backs seeking UN recognition for a Palestinian state, as Qatar proposed at a meeting that the Middle East peace process be suspended until Israel was "ready" for talks.

    At a meeting of an Arab monitoring committee chaired by Qatar, the Arab League said in a statement it "supports the appeal to the UN asking that Palestine, within the 1967 borders, becomes a full-fledged state" of the international organisation.

     

  5. David Avatar
    David

    @Kiki

    Only you would pick up on the word play 🙂

  6. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    @ David, to Technician, “Never knew you to present ‘oxymoronic’ comments.”

    I’m glad it was you, David, that brought this up, only thing, Technician is quite a Pastmaster at not only ‘Oxymoronic’ comments, but his ‘slip’ IS* showing, a worn out ‘cliche’ of his, is now not only showing, but is way up his rectum rectorum, in the utter BS ignorance, and fermented folly he spirts out, incapable, obviously, of any critical, objective, rational , thought process regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict!

    So it be!

  7. Random THoughts Avatar
    Random THoughts

    But Zoe first you were telling us that the land of Israel belongs to the Jewish people by Divine right, but now you are telling us that it is the British who carved up the Middle East in a set ‘o unsustainable borders (much as they did Africa)

    Tell us straight now.

    Was it God who gave Israel to the Jews?

    Or was it the British?

    Or does it happen that your God and the British are one and the same?

    I know that the British were the biggest criminal of the 17th, 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries.

    I hope that the British are not your God.

    If so you have a real, real bad God.

  8. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    RT, I see you are competing with Technician for the most ‘Ignorant’ here in BU, or is it the most ‘Oxymoronic’?

  9. David Avatar
    David

    Reflections on Netanyahu’s speech to Congress

    A former Israeli ambassador and a Palestinian prime ministerial candidate discuss the Israeli prime minister’s speech.

  10. islandgal246 Avatar
    islandgal246

    Random Thoughts girl yuh Badddd……come on Zoe answer RT’s question.

    Techie I can see where you are coming from, how can Christians see that Israel is a modern day country created in 1947 and not the country in the Bible? It is difficult for many to separate the Biblical Israel from the modern day Israel. Many Christians, Jews and Muslims lay claim to Jerusalem that is now in Israel. How can these faiths peacefully resolve their animosity toward each other? If they can, will that help the peace process? The Christian West will always support Israel and the Arab countries will always oppose Israel. Where does that leave peace? Perhaps if we all look at the Bible, Torah, and the Koran as only history books we would have a better understanding. But the claim that these books were written by GOD we have a problem.

    Zoe you are telling us that owning land is not important because it is of this world and that the Bible tells us to not to be of this world. Yet you are saying that Israel has a right to the lands of the Palestinian peoples. You are very confused like many of you who rely on the bible for your knowledge.

  11. kiki Avatar
    kiki

    @ Da Vid
    Roger Roger 10–4
    I’ll speak in poetry,
    (So u know it’s me)

  12. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    An oxymoron is not a bad thing, we have them in every aspect of life …….hell….ReLIEgion itself has it’s share 😉
    What slip Zoe?

  13. David Avatar
    David

    Think Zoe has taken the reference to ‘oxymoronic’ out of context :-).

    Let us all admit it, any number of Arabs killed by the Israeli will be justified by fundamentalists Christians

  14. Crusoe Avatar
    Crusoe

    All right. I gine done this discussion now (BU discussion and the idea of one ‘ending’ being obviously an oxymoron…lol).

    The WORLD, heck the UNVIERSE is of God and all the peoples and beings of the Universe are of the Almighty, we are ALL of God and chosen by the mere fact of ‘being’.

    The world does not belong to anyone per se, but is of God and we are allowed to use it… simply by ‘being’.

    We are here for the ‘experience’ for our soul to develop…nothing more or less.

    Too simple?

    Tough!!!

  15. Cruose Avatar
    Cruose

    Without being critical, just musing…

    Does it matter if some will get heaven…golden fields of dew….or some fire and brimstone..

    Does it matter if some of you get 72 virgins?

    I myself do not care what y’all get, that is for your own soul to decide….

    Though I suspect the 72 virgins may attract young BAFBFP….

    Lol….

  16. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Almighty God, of historic divine revelation, as given in His* Word, the Bible, IS* sovereign and:

    “…the Most High (Almighty God) RULES in the kingdom of men, and gives IT to whomever HE* chooses…For HIS* dominion IS* an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom is from generation to generation, ALL the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing. HE* does accoring to HIS* will in the army of heaven, And among the inhabitants of the EARTH* NO ONE can restrain His hand, Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?” (Daniel 4: 33b,34b, 35 Emphasis added)

    Almighty God, can choose whatever means HE* so desires on earth, and USE any man, or nation of people, be they Pagan, or otherwise, to bring about HIS* sovereign decrees, plans, and purposes, as He clearly did in using the Assyrians and Babylonians, both terrible pagan civilizations, to inflict* judgment on His Covenated people, the Jews, by carrying them into captivity in the Old Testament.

    Likewise, HE, in His sovereignty, choose Britian et al, in the 20th Century, to fulfill His sovereign promises, to re-gather the Jewish people, from the four corners of the earth, where HE had scattered them, for 2000 years, and this has nothing to do with Britians’ evil ways, or otherwise, as it is extremely interesting, to NOTE, historically, THAT* the British Empire, begun to crumble, fall apart, from around the same time, THAT* Churchill, then Home Secretary of State, with the stroke of his pen, GAVE AWAY 75% of the Mandated Land, for Israel, to create Transjordan, (now Jordan) VIOLATING Almighty God’s Gift of His* land to Israel, where Almighty God, swore, that WHOEVER, divides* seperates* HIS* Land, that HE GAVE to Israel, him, they, will HE CURSE!

    Britian was cursed, for giving away, dividing HIS* land, that was Covenated to the Jews, Israel; likewise, wherever, any American President forced any Israeli PM, to cede land for so-called peace, terrible disasters STRUCK America, right here within the last 15 years or so. It never FAILS to happen, because we are dealing with a sovereign, Almighty God, who does NOT change or lie, as He IS* no respector of persons!

    So this utter Crap about Britian being my God, because God used them et al to create the new Homeland for modern-day Israel, is nothing but more moronic* ignorant hogwash!

  17. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    GOD JUDGES THE NATIONS:

    “For behold, in those DAYS* and at that time, When I BRING BACK the captives of Judah and JERUSALEM, I will gather ALL NATIONS, And bring then down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat: and I WILL enter into JUDGEMENT with them there. On account of MY PEOPLE, My heritage ISRAEL. Whom they have scattered among the nations. Thet have also DIVIDED* My LAND, They have cast lots for My people.” (Joel 3: 1-3a Emphasis added)

    Hear again, the WORD of Almighty God, re Jerusalem:

    “The burden of the Word of the Lord against Jerusalem. Thuis says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundations of the EARTH, and forms the spirit of man within him. Behold, I will MAKE Jerusalem* a cup of drunkenness to ALL surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and JERUSALEM. And it SHALL HAPPEN in that day that I will make JERUSALEM a very heavy stone for ALL PEOPLES; ALL who would heave it away, will SURELY* BE CUT* IN PIECES* though ALL nations are gathered AGAINST IT* It shall be in that day that I WILL seek to DESTROY ALL* NATIONS* that come AGAINST* JERUSALEM.” (Zech. 12: 1-3, 9, Emphasis added)

    The Word of God, prophectically spoken by Zechariah, (520-475 B.C) concerning this ancient Jewish city and Capital of Israel, JERUSALEM, IS* the focus of today’s world Media, it IS* the focus of the Islamist, Arab, Jihadist, they want it for their so-called Palestinian state, stupid Obama, the EU, IDIOTS, the UN, et al, ALL are forcing Israel to give it up to the Palestinians, ALL of these MORONS, just like some of their LEFTIST* supporters right here on BU, amazingly IGNORANT of the history of Israel, have NO idea what they are calling for and supporting, as Almighty God HAS DECLARED, in HIS* Word, the Bible:

    “It shall be in that DAY* (these very times!) that I WILL seek to DESTROY* ALL THE NATIONS* that come AGAINST* Jerusalem.” (Zech. 12: 9)

    IGNORANCE IS* a curse, but lack of common SENSE* the ability to objectively, critically, and coherenty, analysize the historic FACTS and EVIDENCE, which simply CANNOT* be refuted, well, it is just plain, wilfully, chosen DISHONESTY!

  18. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    Wow Zoe… You too love to insult others dont you?

    I blame David for giving you a new word 😉

    All that because others don’t share your views??
    What makes you right and all others wrong?

    It should, however come as no surprise, the way you think of Palestinians, Arabs or Muslims.
    Your way of thinking is clearly shown by your postings here on BU.
    The everyday suffering and humiliation of innocent people is justified by you as long as it can fit into your version of prophecy.
    The Haitians, Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians of this world are all getting their just deserves, according to you.
    If this is what Christianity is about, you can keep it!

  19. kiki Avatar
    kiki

    Re: JC
    JC’s words do not contradict the truth that G’s message is for all people.. he was in Gentile territory on a mission to Gentile people. JC was simply telling Jew’s were to have the first opportuity to accept him as the messiah because G wanted them to present the message of salvation to the rest of the world.
    Faith is available to all people.

  20. Zack Avatar
    Zack

    It amuses me how people like Zoe believe that modern day Israel can do no wrong because of some biblical reasoning or promise. Such people actual believe that Israel is above international law and has the right to do as it pleases. Israel continues to be in breach of UN Resolution 242. Israel also has WMDs even though it has never admitted to it, but nobody is seeking to verify and dismantle them. So Israel appears to be a law onto herself with the blessing of those who believe that there is something divinely special about her people.

  21. kiki Avatar
    kiki

    …Who may ascend into the hill of the LORD? And who may stand in His holy place?He who has clean hands and a pure heart, Who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood And has not sworn deceitfully. He shall receive a blessing from the LORD.And righteousness from the God of his salvation.” Psalms 24:3-5.

  22. Random Thoughts Avatar
    Random Thoughts

    8Zoe | May 28, 2011 at 11:52 PM | “RT, I see you are competing with Technician for the most ‘Ignorant’ here in BU, or is it the most ‘Oxymoronic’?”

    No Zoe I am neither ignorant nor a moran.

    I am like the 12 year old Jesus in the Temple simply asking questions.

  23. Random Thoughts Avatar
    Random Thoughts

    *Zoe “Likewise, HE, in His sovereignty, choose Britian et al, in the 20th Century, to fulfill His sovereign promises, to re-gather the Jewish people”

    The idea of God choosing those wicked colonian bastards the British to do anything for him is laughable.

    As laughable as believing that those men who bombed the World Trade Towers were acting in the name of God.

    In the early 20th century the British were wicked, thieving colonial bastards.

    in 2011 the men who bombed NY ad DC and in PA were wicked deluded men.

    God had not a word to say to either group.

    And certainly God was not acting through ANY of them

    And anybody who believed the British or the World Trade Center bombers were/are God’s agents is deluded, ignorant and “oxymoronic”

    All of us are God’s children, or none of us are God’s children.

    The idea that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God has chosen children and “outside” children is ridiculous.

    Only a certain kind of bad behaved man has inside “chosen” children and outside children and treats them differently.

    God is NOT LIKE YOU ZOE.

  24. kiki Avatar
    kiki

  25. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Technician talkes about the atrocities committed by Israel against the Palestinians, the question IS* what IS* the antecedent CAUSE* of Israel, who remained mostly SILENT while been bombarded with over 10,000 rockets launched into her civilian population AFTER giving up Gaza for the sake of so-called peace, and quietly stood by and DID nothing to protect her RIGHTS against such unwarranted hostility and rampant agression, what other Nation on EARTH would take such TERRORISM?

    The PLO/PA dispatched more than 18,000 of its TERRORIST soldiers on missions to MURDER JEWS, and as a result, Israel has suffered 25, 375 attacks and nearly 14,000 casualities – just during the 45 months since October 2000. This translates to 20 attacks and 10 casualities- DAILY. The PLO/PA, and HAMAS is at WAR with Israel and, the world wants Israel to NEGOTIATE! The PLO/PA, HAMAS, wants EVERY Jew DEAD, and that fool Obama, the EU jackasses, and the UN idiots, want a Palestinian state WITHIN the borders of Israel; what UTTER MADNESS!

    It IS* beyond reason, that:

    * A sovereign nation can allow military ATTACKS to go unchecked for so long.

    * A sovereign nation can allow the causality figures to increase daily.

    * A sovereign does nothing substantial to protect its innocent citizens from this DIOBOLICAL Hated and repreated attacks.

    * A sovereigh can allow itself to be controlled by foreign powers who, in a perveted way of thinking, demand Israeli restraint in the face of ATTACKS.

    Israel has SUFFERED 11, 356 casualities, YES, 11,356 casualities from these Palestinian TERRORIST, for the 5 years ending July 2005, and you Technician, have the GALL in your IGNORANCE of FACTS, to ask about the atrocities against the Palestinians.

    Man, Technician, you and your LEFTIST* freaks have NO conscience, it has been SEARED with an Hot Iron!!!

  26. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    The MOST pronounced, OXYMORONIC* statement, EVER uttered, is that of Israeli and the Palestinains living side-by-side, not as they now do, BUT, within the borders of ISRAEL!

    And, to think, that so-called intellectual World Leaders, like that Moron Obama, et al, could seriously CALL for such existence, IN the FACE of the BLATANT, overtly EXPRESSED desire and INTENT, of the PLO/PA, Hamas, Iran, to ANNIHILATE* the state of Israel and ALL Jews, whenever the opportunity arises, could ONLY render these demented JACKASSES, to be what they really are, wicked, stupid, MORONIC FOOLS!!!

  27. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    Man, Technician, you and your LEFTIST* freaks have NO conscience, it has been SEARED with an Hot Iron!!!

    Zoe Zoe Zoe…..

    You are being deceitful, bordering on being a damn liar!
    Not once have I ever condoned the actions of The Palestinians towards Israel.
    If you would stop being so over zealous, you would see that I also blame them for the state they find themselves in as their actions doesn’t help their argument and plays right into the Israeli’s and their allies’ hands.
    I am not a freak (I was created in God’s image remember) nor am I left or right, so enough with the ignorant labels.
    You talk about conscience but where is yours as a christian?
    Where is your remorse at the loss of innocent life?
    Where is your cry for justice and equality?
    Do you believe that Israel does no wrong ?
    What do you think of the rule of law?
    You weep for Israel, you cringe at the thought of others wanting Israel wiped of the map…yet you see nothing wrong with the blatant disregard for the life (human) of the Palestinians…..and you call yourself a man of God?
    Tell us ..oh wise and educated Zoe, who is BU’s best critical thinker……why is it that the Jewish people have such a hatred for evengelical christians like you and those of your ilk?
    Tell us …oh wise one….why do you need them while they could give a rat’s ass about you and those of your ilk?
    Could it be, that without them, your dogma goes up in flames?
    Don’t you need them to justify the ‘age ‘ we are in at this time?
    …..and you talk about slip showing…….LMFAO!!

  28. islandgal246 Avatar
    islandgal246

    This is an interesting and eye opening piece.

    http://globalvoicesonline.org/2009/02/02/lebanon-being-black-in-lebanon-means/

  29. islandgal246 Avatar
    islandgal246

    This is a direct link to the article
    http://janerubio.blogspot.com/2009/01/being-black-in-lebanon.html

  30. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    TECHNICIAN, “You are being deceitful, bordering on being a dam liar!”

    If a PLUMB-LINE was implanted in your brain, you still COULD NOT think straight, your INVETERATE LIAR; “…nor am I LEFT or RIGHT.”

    All of YOUR ranting is distinctly LEFTIST* you LIAR, cloaked in the deceitful veneer of a call for ‘justice’ and ‘equality’ for the Palestinians, PLO/PA, Hamas, et al, who like YOU, YOU LIAR* are strangers to the TRUTH of true ‘JUSTICE’ and EQUALITY,

    “Not once have I ever condoned the actions of the Palestinians toward Israel.”

    BUT, your silence LIAR, is tantamount do doing SO, as you have NEVER spoken out against such atrocities CONSTANTLY perputrated AGAINST Israel, show my WHERE you have EVER spoken out against it, SHOW ME, conspicuous SILENCE, is to approve it!

    “…you would see that I also BLAME them for the state they (Palestinians) find themselves in…”

    Really, LIAR, once again I challenge YOU to reference where on BU, you have EVER “….blamed them for the state they find themselves IN…”

    All you have EVER DONE, here in BU, is to blame Israel for everything that has gone wrong with the Palestinians, I CHALLENGE you, to reference otherwise!

    For years now, I have posted tons of histotric FACTS, EVIDENCE, dates, figures, events, etc, etc, systematically, objectively, and coherently showing, the TRUTH about this conflict with Israel vis-a-vis the Arabs and their diabolical HATRED, and VEHEMENT desire to WIPE Israel off the MAP, and to KILL every Jew on earth.

    That utterly stupid, OXYMORONIC question: “Do you believe that Israel does no wrong?”

    Is just another ‘Redherring’ strawmanized, moronic question, to DISTRACT from the substance and essence of the issue at hand, used by those of your ILK, whose intellectual and knowledge DEARTH* absence, defect, scarcity, paucity, and DOWNRIGHT IGNORANCE, is grossly manifested IN the shallowness of your vacuous imput, meaning NOTHINGNESS!!!

    For your imperceptive, impertinent, arrogant, stupidity, be infomed, that I DO NOT have any dogma, of my own, re Israel and the End-Time scenario, but STAND resolutely ON, the unchanging, self-authenticating authority of God’s WORD, which has NEVER, historically proved to EVER be wrong, NEVER!!!

    It makes no difference to me, how many Jews hate Evangelical Christians, or otherwise, for that is NOT the point, it is irrevalent to the issue, and as usual, is just another ‘Redherring’ thrown into the fray, to DISTRACT from the historic significance of what IS* unfolding, EXACTLY as Almighty God said it would.

    The more you write, is the MORE you reveal how EMPTY, VIODLESS, and malign, your LEFTIST* DENIAL* EXCUSE* JUSTIFICATION* syndrome IS* that IS* these steps of DENYING the crime(s), and then ADMITTING it, but explaining IT away followed by the actual JUSTIFICATION of IT.

    Classic myopic reasoning of ALL LEFTIST*

  31. kiki Avatar
    kiki

    Over 50% (i.e. the majority) of people living in Gaza are under 18 (i.e. Children).
    It is Unchristian to reject people racially (i.e. racism).
    It is Unchristian to be unforgiving.
    It is Unchristian not to seek a peaceful solution

  32. kiki Avatar
    kiki

  33. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    …..“Not once have I ever condoned the actions of the Palestinians toward Israel.”

    BUT, your silence LIAR, is tantamount do doing SO, as you have NEVER spoken out against such atrocities CONSTANTLY perpetrated AGAINST Israel…’

    You are truly a piece of work!!
    Have you ever spoken out on ANY wrong doing by Israel?
    Do you see how ignorant your rant sounds?
    You are accusing me of the very thing you do.
    Your silence was deafening (now that was an oxymoron) on Haiti. Was it then ‘tantamount’ to you not caring whether the lived or died because as you put it later on BU, their voodoo worship was to blame?

    You challenge me and I have to put up proof…are you an ass Zoe??

    Why dont you put it up for people to see?

    The burden of proof lies at you now!

    You sound as though you are going to have a heart attack, relax guy.
    Did I pinch a nerve some where?
    Such hostility and venom from the Christian Zoe…LMFAO!!

    You are a joke!!

    Wipe the froth from your lips and key board and search BU for the evidence to support you claims.
    WTF is a leftist?……someone that has gone too far right?

    …..’For your imperceptive, impertinent, arrogant, stupidity, be infomed, that I DO NOT have any dogma, of my own, re Israel and the End-Time scenario, but STAND resolutely ON, the unchanging, self-authenticating authority of God’s WORD, which has NEVER, historically proved to EVER be wrong, NEVER!!!’

    Ammmm……you are a Christian?…..you have DOGMA…..deal with it guy!!

    …….That utterly stupid, OXYMORONIC question: “Do you believe that Israel does no wrong?”

    I think you are getting carried away with your new found word . Just answer the question…YES or NO.

    ….’The more you write, is the MORE you reveal how EMPTY, VIODLESS, and malign, your LEFTIST* DENIAL* EXCUSE* JUSTIFICATION* syndrome IS* that IS* these steps of DENYING the crime(s), and then ADMITTING it, but explaining IT away followed by the actual JUSTIFICATION of IT.

    Good christ man…..in all fairness…the above could just as easily describe your take on the matter also Zoe…..dont you get it ?!?

  34. Charles Knighton Avatar
    Charles Knighton

    While I appreciate the spirited debate as well as the ancient history lessons and the appeals to holy books and God, the Israeli / Palestinian issue can only be discussed by dealing with what is, not what was or what may have been. Focus is always lost if one does not begin the discussion with the UN mandate for a Jewish state in 1947.

    I take no position regarding the advisability of siting the Jewish in its present location, that being a fait accompli. All that is really left to ponder are the actions SINCE 1948, of Israel and its Arab neighbours.

    Society has incorporated various institutions such as a system of courts in an attempt to solve disputes, some of which may seem intractable. Almost always, one side will be aggrieved with the outcome but will also be expected to abide by it, as otherwise anarchy reigns.

    The seemingly intractable problem of a homeland for the Jews ( hard to believe what is now Uganda was once considered) was settled with a lawful UN mandate. As the surrounding Arab states could not abide this decision, they began a series of invasions designed to eradicate the nascent state of Israel. To argue that Israel took control of territory outside the borders of the original mandate through avarice instead of through the instinct for self-preservation is disingenuous, as the only way to make that argument would rest on the Arab states never having invaded Israel.

    It seems to me this issue of a return to Israel’s 1967 borders is readily resolvable. Israel has pledged to return to such borders upon the guarantee of its right to exist peacefully. If the surrounding Arab states only desire the return of occupied territory as opposed to the eradication of the state of Israel, let them call Israel’s bluff and make a legitimate peace wit it. If Israel does not respond as promised, a return to a state of belligerence would simply be a return to today’s status quo, but with the onus for such a state of affairs now squarely on Israel. But should Israel comply and return to its 1967 borders only to be invaded again, all bets for the region are then off.

    Charles Knighton

  35. kiki Avatar
    kiki

  36. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    TECHNICIAN, As you in your vast IGNORANCE, asked a while ago, “WTF is critical thinking?” So now AGAIN, in your ASININE, pinheaded, dumbass, cavity between your ears, ask:

    “WTF is a Leftist?” Jackass, Moron, like you idiot!

    Again, in your dumbheaded brain, (if you have one!) don’t even understand the distinct difference between what is DOGMA* and what constitutes DOCTRINE* Fool!

    Once, yet again, your Bildge Pump head, does not have a CLUE, what and how in logical debate, the BURDEN OF PROOF* works. It was YOU FOOL, who stated:

    “…you would SEE (on BU, obviously!) that I ALSO BLAME them (Palestinians) for the STATE they FIND themselves IN, as their ACTIONS does NOT help their argument…” Emphasis added.

    It was YOU* who made the CLAIM* to the above statement, NOT ME, therefore, the burden of PROOF* lies with YOU, idiot, NOT ME!

    That principle of debate, IS clearly understood by those who know, and follow the rules of rational, logical debate.

    Of course, you have NEVER offered any, objective, cogent, rational, logical arguments in this Israeli/Palestinian crisis, only HOGWASH, LEFTIST* diatribe, just like Arafat, Abbas, and all the other Islamist, Jihadist HATERS of the Jews and the State of Israel!

  37. Charles Knighton Avatar
    Charles Knighton

    @Zoe…….”Of course, you have NEVER offered any, objective, cogent, rational, logical arguments in this Israeli/Palestinian crisis,”

    Have you? All you have done Zoe is show your hatred of the Arabs who live in that part of the world. You have also quoted the bible in an attempt to solidify Israel’s case. Israel’s existence cannot be solved from Biblical history. It has to be dealt with from 1947 to now. Prior to that it did not exist except for stories in the Bible.

  38. David Avatar
    David

    Charles point is valid and so far has not elicited any serious responses.

    Will a return to the 1967 borders support Israel’s concern about security?

    The concern for Israel is being sandwiched by the Arab world which surrounds and particularly Egypt.

    Now that Mubarak has been taken out and the Muslim Brotherhood getting some airplay before an election, what does this portend for Arab Israel relations in the ME and particularly Egypt which is at the back door.

  39. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    WOW!!!

    The Christian Zoe shows his true colours again on BU!

    You called me a LIAR…..I asked you to prove it…..you can’t!!

    I have always commented on the ME issue on BU in the same light. It has nothing to do with supporting the Arabs or being against Israel.
    What I have always asked, is why ALL the blame always seem to be placed squarely on the Palestinians, when there is documented proof that Israel is guilty of atrocities also.
    Where is the fairness in that?
    All you can do is insult and try to berate me on BU but it means nothing as you have NO impact or bearing on my life!
    All it does show is that a simple dumb dog like me can stump a learned intellectual like you with the simplest of questions. Your only retort is to be abusive…..Zoe a Christian has now become an oxymoron!
    In all the years on BU, you have NEVER held Israel accountable. You have NEVER had anything good to say about Arabs or Muslims!

    As I have said before. Evangelical Christians need Israel for their prophecy to be fulfilled because of the dispensationalist outlook.

    ……..’Again, in your dumbheaded brain, (if you have one!) don’t even understand the distinct difference between what is DOGMA* and what constitutes DOCTRINE* Fool!

    Insults again, you Zoe know nothing about me but you carry on as though you do, I guess that is the Christian way again…lol.
    I do know enough in this dumheaded brain though, that every dogma is a doctrine but not every doctrine is dogma. I went to school, church and all those places we as children had to go.

    @ David….

    As long as there are people who think along the lines of Zoe, there will NEVER be peace in the ME.
    This issue has been based along biblical lines from the day Arthur Balfour, a devout Protestant made his famous speech.
    The die was cast from then!
    The Israeli Prime Minister has said in no uncertain terms that they WILL NOT be going back to those borders.
    Interesting times ahead..

  40. David Avatar
    David

    @Techie

    Perhaps more of concern is the fork tongue speaking President Obama on this issue recently.

    US

  41. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Mr. Charles Knighton, with due respect Sir, you are sadly ignorant, (lacking knowledge, facts,) re the historic reality of the existence* of Israel* both as a people and as a Nation, Biblically and historically, for over 3,500 years.

    No matter how scant and frivolous your attitude is towards God’s Word, the Bible, as a reliable source of Israel’s existence for thousands of years, confirmed by secular history, it is, therefore a fact of history, that in order to truly understand secular history, one should paralell it with the Biblcal accounts, as they fit together in a way that Only Almighty God could narrate in His Word.

    The term ‘Israel’ is referred to hundreds of times throughout the Bible, God’s Word, it very existence from its inception is miraculous, as recorded in the Book of Genesis.(12:2)

    Promises that Anticipated Anti-Semitism.

    Almighty God in his Omniscience knew the vile, sordid, ugly hatred that would develop for the Jews way back in the partiarchal era, and therefore, in His “I WILLS” clearly anticipated the Satanic malevolence that would be specifically directed at Abraham and his descendants, the Jews, Israel; through whom God’s mession of ‘redemption’ to the world would come; and would logically, therefore be singled out as prime targets* by the father of ALL lies, Satan himself. That Anti-Semitis has been a relentless FACT* of history, simply cannot be refuted.

    Therefore, God in His Covenantal declaration with Abraham, said, “I WILL bless those who bless you, And I WLL curse him who curses you…(v.3a). It is a fact of history, for thousands of years, that Abraham and his divinely chosen line of descendants through Isaac and Jacob have been consistently persecuted, right through the last 2000 years, and continues right UP to this very day, as IS presently been witnessed in the State of Israel, and throughout the world, everywhere. There IS* a mystical quality behind the INTENSITY* of the HATRED* towards the Israelites.

    The Jews have been singled out for special HATRED* since they were driven into global exile after the destruction of Israel in 70. A.D. This, Mr. Knighton, IS* historic FACT, also recorded by secular historians, confirming their EXISTENCE* as a Nation, even AFTER the B.C, era. The name ‘Jew’ has come to be indiscriminately applied to the survivors of all twelve tribes of ‘Israelites” in recent times.

    None of this diabolical, inhuman HATRED, can be understood nor grasped, unless and until one understands the ‘one’ the Word of God, the Bible, ‘the god of this age’ none other then Satan himself, who is behind the annihilation of the Jews, and their Covenanted, God-given land, ‘Israel’. Any objective study of the irrational outbreaks of hated, all over the world toward the Israelites, their mindless slaughter in every century, will reveal that there is a malevolent spiritual force, entity behind it all.

    There is NO rational explanation, for their survival as a distinct ‘ethic’ people, over thousands of years, their captivity twice in the OT era, the distruction of their Temple in 70. A.D, then their last dispersion in 135 A.D, into 2000 years of exile, scattered throughout the world, AND, then, finally the ‘Restoration’ of their ancient homeland, in 1948, AND, their miraculous survival, against ALL odds, when attacked viciously by their neighboring Arab countries, hours after the TINY Nation, Israel became a sovereign State, AGAIN, and the subsequent ALL out attack in 1967, ONLY the Hand of Almighty God, who FIRST gave them birth as a people, then as a Nation, way back over 3,500 years ago, could do this.

    No, Mr. Knighton, you are grossly misinformed. Hear God Word, thousands of years ago, re this NATION!

    “This say, ‘Come, LET US WIPE THEM PUT AS A NATION*; LET THE NAME OF ISRAEL* BE REMEMBERED NO MORE,’ They conspire with one accord, against YOU, they make a covenant – the tents of EDOM, and the Ishmaelites ( The Arabs), Moab and Hagrites, Gebal and Ammon and Amalek (Jordan), Philistia and the inhabitants of Tyre (Lebanon); Assyria (Syria) also has joined them…” (psalms 83: 4-8, Emphasis added.

    That divinely recorded statement, thousands of years ago, SOUNDS like if it was written RECENTLY, as it describes, almost to the tee, what IS going on in today’s Middle East, in relation to Israel, and their desired INTENT, to wipe Isreal OFF THE MAP.

    Again we read in God’s Word, the Bible, thousands of years ago, hear HIS WORD, not man!

    “The Word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: “have you not noticed that these people (Israel’s neighboring nations) are saying, ‘The LORD has rejected the two families’? SO THEY DESPISE MY PEOPLE AND NO LONGER REGARD THEM AS A NATION*.’ This is what the LORD says: ‘If I have not established My covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and the earth, then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and my David My servant and will not choose on of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will bring them (Israel) back from captivity and have compassion on them.” (Jeremiah 33: 23-26, Emphasis added).

    This is no joking matter Sir, to ignore the Biblical and historic FACT, of the existence of ‘ISRAEL’ from way back in the OT era, right through until today, is to have one’s feet firmly PLANTED in MID-AIR, of denial and ignorance!

  42. kiki Avatar
    kiki

    Horace Andy – In The Light, Dub Light

  43. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    @ David….

    Obama’s forked tongue is necessary for his survival.
    As someone said, this carrot and stick approach is a smart move by him to be doing absolutely nothing while looking busy.
    It will be interesting to hear the Israeli Prime Minister’s speech later today.

  44. islandgal246 Avatar
    islandgal246

    @Zoe….”Again we read in God’s Word, the Bible, thousands of years ago, hear HIS WORD, not man!”

    Take that to the law courts and see how far you are going to get. If we we all to go back to Africa as RT stated, do you think the Africans will allow us to claim lands that our ancestors owned? Yuh twit! If I decided that God told me to go and take another man’s land and kill him and his family, because I read that in the Bible. Do you think that will stand up TODAY in a court of law? What if the French and the Dutch decide to reclaim all the countries they lost to other nations? What if the British decide to take back America?

  45. Technician Avatar
    Technician

    @ Islandgirl246…..

    All Zoe’s talk of Gods chosen people and Israel”s rights to the land are necessary for their dogma.
    In all the articles I have read pertaining to the establishment of Israel in the Place then known as Palestine, not once is it mentioned, about the Biblical references.
    What I have read, was same type of double standard and the double-crossing we sill see today by super powers, where both the Jewish people and the Arabs were promised States for their support of Britain.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917
    As usual ….there will be the expected spin to come;)….nevertheless, it makes for interesting reading without the biblical jargon.

  46. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Islandgal246, You are both a ‘Twit’ and a ‘Twat’ as your stupid argument re Africa, French, Dutch et al, IS exactly the premise of a solid LEGAL argument for Israel, and its pre 1967 borders, as emphatically defined and codified by ‘The League of Nations’ which WAS/IS a court oriented FACT.

    It WAS Egypt, Syria, Jordan, WHO attacked Israel’s official Statehood, within HOURS, after May 15, 1948, AND violated her sovereignty, BY taking away, the West Bank, Jerusalem etc, where JORDAN illegally, OCCUPIED, Israel’s legally mandated LAND, YET, NO ONE internationally, by way of the UN, of World Court, objected to this ILLEGAL OCCUPATION, of Israel’s LAND, ‘Yah Twat’ Yet, when these and other Arab , Muslim states, AGAIN, decided to ATTACK Israel, as their occupation of Jerusalem, the West Bank, etc, wasn’t enough, Oh’ no, they wanted Israel ANNIHILATED, and in attempting to do so, were defeated, by Israel in 6 DAYS, and Israel re-captured JERUSALEM, its ancient capital, BUT, now, in extremely twisted, and perverted reasoning, the WORLD is insisting, Obama included, that Israel, negotiate, based on its rightful borders in a 1967 context, WAS UTTER NASTY, MADNESS.

    Jordan was NOT asked to return Jerusalem to Israel AFTER INVADING it, that was quite OK, but now that Israel, after being attacked in 1967, and rightfully regained its Capital Jerusalem, and the West Bank, all of a sudden it is wrong and illegal to keep and protect what IS* Israels, by Law.

    Where IS* your sensible reasoning TWAT? But, then again as a LEFTIST* one cannot expect you to reason with any logical, or coherent thought!

  47. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    Israel Is surrounded by 23 sovereign Muslim states. there are now more than ONE BILLION TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY MILLION Mulims in the world, and they are already the majority in nearly 60 countries. There are about 15 MILLION Jews dispersed throughout the world, AND a majority in ONLY ONE cpuntry, Israel.

    The EU, Obama, the UN, et al, around the world, easily forget, that in 2001, the then Prime Minister of Israel, Ehud Barak, OFFERED Arafat 98% of exactly the territory THAT Arafat had demanded, and 98% is certainly and extraordinary offer. IF, the basis for CONFLICT, were territorial in nature, then Arafat should have either accepted the offer, or presented a counteroffer. But, Barak’s offer also called for a permanent* cessation of HOSTILITIES. No more mudering of Jews. as expected, Arafat REJECTED the offer outright, and walked out of the meeting, AND returned to DEVOTE himself to leading MUDERERS, instead of continuing the negotiations, he intensified the Oslo War.

    At noon on evey May 15th, sirens wail across PA-controlled territory as Arabs STAND for a minute of silence to MOURN Israels’s Creation of a statehood, in 1948. The PLO/PA refer to this day as ‘Nakba’ the day of the catastrophe when Israel declared its rightful independance, AS Mandated by The League of Nations. They don’t mourn Israel’s reacquiring the West Bank and Gaza. No, No, they mourn the VERY EXISTENSE of the State of Israel, after the moment of its officially Mandated Stare, in 1948, and, remembering always, THAT, within hours of its Statehood, Israel LOST Gaza and the West Bank, to vicious invaion by Egypt and Jordan. It WAS NOT Gaza and the West Bank that they seek, NO! NO! NO!, they mourn because of Israel’s EXISTENCE! Period!

    This IS* why in Hamas’ Chater, they CALL for the DESTRUCTION of Israel; it is ALSO stated in the PLO/PA documents of INTENT, toward Israel.

    The SALIENT POINT, and I have said this before, that Obama, the EU, the UN, et all, refuse to deal with, is this, the Arab, Muslim position, vis-a-vis Israel IS NO more a territorial conflict, than was al-Qaeda when IT struck Anerica on September 11th.

    It IS NOT that Israek is being very provacative to the Arabs; But, to the Arabs, Israel’s VERY BEING* it EXISTENCE* is provocative!

    Arabs and Muslims demand ANOTHER Palestinian state, as they already have ONE, JORDAN, a position that is supported by most of the world. However, there ARE TWO very critical questions that MUST be answered in so far as the Arabs and Muslims are concerned:

    1. Is their OBJECTIVE a state alomgside Israel; or, is their OBJECTIVE a state INSTEAD of Israel?

    2. Is the ISSUE at hand revolving around the SIZE of Israel, or IS the issue revolving about the EXISTENCE of Israel?

    Obviously, if the second option of the TWO questions IS TRUE, then Israei concessions are to be AVIODED at ALL COST.

    This line of attack is best summed up by one of the PLO’s estemmed leaders, an executive committe member:

    “The Palestinian PEOPLE do NOT EXIST. We take pains to emphasize our Palestinian identity ONLY for tactical purposes. The creation of a Palestinian sate IS the only means for continuing our struggle AGAINST the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality, today there is NO difference between JORDANIANS, PALESTINIANS, SYRIANS, and LEBANESE. Only for political and TACTICAL reasons do WE SPEAK today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since arab national interest DEMAND that we posit the existence of a distinct *Palestinian* people to OPPOSE Zionism. The establishment of a separate Palestinian sate IS A NEW tool to continue the struggle AGAINST Israel.”

    “For TACTICAL reasons, JORDAN which is a sovereign state with defined borders, CANNOT raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as Palestinians, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. After having obtained all our rights in EVERY BIT of Palestine – we will NOT postpone for a SINGLE moment, the re-unification of Jordan and Palestine…” Emphasis added.

    In short, the ‘Palestinian’ Arabs admit that they have NO RIGHTS or claims as a griup to any country or region of their own. And they further admit, that the proposed Palestinian state will BE utilized as a MEANS to DESTROY ISRAEL. So what is the purpose for negotiations? For God sake, what possible positive objectives can be achieved through negotiations? The ‘Palestinians’ ARE waging a WAR of ANNIHILATION against Israel, and America, Obama, the EU, UN, et al, pretend that both parties are participating in a peace proces, and following a roadmap to peace!!!

    What UTTER CRAP, and sadistic DECEPTION, the world has bought into!???

  48. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    There IS nothing to NEGOTIATE, PERIOD!!! How in the name of SANITY, can Israel negotiate with sworn ENEMIES, whose OPEN, declared objective and INTENT, as demonstrated from 1948/49, 1956, 1967, 1973, and CONTINUING with over 10,000 rockets fired into Israeli civilian territory, IS* to DESTROY Israel, and KILL every Jew on earth.

    What INSANE FARCE, is the UN, America, OBAMA, the EU, and most of the rest of the world, in calling for Israel to make peace with the Palestinians, who DO NOT want peace, they WANT to TERMINATE, DESTROY, and ANNIHILATE Israel!

    The majority’s opinion, the preponderance of which in the case, IS UTTER MADNESS, where the conscience of most, seem to be DEAD!

  49. David Avatar
    David

    @Zoe

    washingtonpost The Washington Post

    Israeli troops open fire on Palestinian protesters attempting to cross at Golan Heights; 22 reported killed http://wapo.st/iFD4nh

  50. Zoe Avatar
    Zoe

    @David, What’s your point in sending me this news link?

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