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Submitted by Terence Blackett

In the book of Isaiah 60: 6, 7 the prophet says:

“The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah: all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense: and they shall forth the praises of the Lord.. All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance upon mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.”

To first of all understand these two verses, we must first be able to explain and understand what or who is Midian, Ephah, Sheba, Kedar and Nebaioth based on Biblical history.

In Genesis 25, we discover something very unique in the Word of God. Many well-meaning theologians, pastors and teachers ignore the Scriptures or simply are blind sided by prejudice as to what God is trying to say and show.

Most Christians today understand and are taught that Abraham had 2 lines of posterity. In actual fact, Abraham had 3 lines.

Let us start with Midian. As you read Gen. 25:1-2, the Bible says:

“Now Abraham married again, Keturah was his new wife and she bore him several children: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. And Jokshan had two sons Sheba and Dedan… The sons of Midian were Ephah and Epher…all these were the children of Keturah…”


It is important to note that Abraham’s [3] lines of descendants are pivotal to the plan of salvation, although heretical teachings to the contrary would have us believe that because Abraham bequeathed all that he had to Isaac the child of promise that it meant that Abraham’s seed (which according to Almighty God) would be like the sands upon the sea shore – we must conclude that the Abrahamic promised blessings also included all of his posterity.

What was distinctive about Isaac’s line or future genealogy would be that God choose this line to bring Messiah Yeshua into the world. However we must understand that this line would be interspersed and intermarried over the next 2000 years right up to the coming of Mary who was to be the one who would bear the Holy Child Jesus.

Abraham’s first wife Hagar bore him Ishmael; Sarah bore Isaac and Keturah bore him Midian. These lines are crucial to our understanding of Bible prophecy and how God is working out the plan of salvation through Abraham’s seed –  heirs of a promise made by God to all those who believe – whether Jew or Gentile, rich or poor, bond or free…

So we have established that Abraham’s posterity based on Isaiah rendition of the sacred history shows that his [3] sons and grandsons from their respective mothers – we now come to Ishmael’s first born – Nebaioth and Kedar his brother.

We have been taught for most of our Christian lives of the line of Sarah from which Isaac came and the resulting historical record of the Jewish people. The ignorance of allowing the other [2] lines of Abraham to exist in virtual obscurity without paying the necessary attention to the part that they play in the prophetic scheme of things is the reason why God is now allowing the eyes of those who are seeking revelation, light and present truth from the Word of God to bring this knowledge to the forefront of the minds of men.

Jesus Christ cannot return to earth until there is unity amongst the children of Abraham based on the covenant God made with him. The fulfilment of that covenant extend to every man, woman and child of Abraham who will come into the promise by faith in Jesus Christ regardless of religious persuasion, race or creed.

In Isaiah 60: 7, the 2nd son of Ishmael – Kedar came first and then Nebaioth the firstborn came second according to word from the prophet. Why is this?

In a similar twist of fate, we see Isaac beget two sons, Esau and Jacob. Esau was the firstborn – but sells his birthright to his brother Jacob. So Jacob becomes first and Esau becomes second. Have you noticed the parallels? Is God doing something interesting here? Whether you or I want to believe it, He sure is doing something or is allowing something to teach us a poignant lesson.

Jesus reminds us that the “first shall be last – and the last shall be first”. What does this means? And how can we apply this within the context of our understanding of religious matters today in our world?

It is important to note that the [3] lines of Abraham actually became [2]. Sarah’s line through Isaac became the [12] tribes of Israel and the children of Hagar & Keturah became the people of the EAST as they dwelt together… This is a very important distinction!

Whenever God refers to the people of the EAST, He is earmarking the sons and daughters of Abraham – not a separate and distinct group (though in essence, they were) but as a nation of people who had not been relegated to the side lines or had been forgotten.

It is important to open up from the Word of God and show decisively and distinctly who the ARAB people are – the sons of Ishmael, Midian and the others.

This is probably going to be the most controversial exegetical exposition of divine Biblical revelation ever seen from the Word of God and there are some who will be offended by this Scriptural discourse as it belies their inherent prejudices concerning the Bible.

We know from the record that Israel was founded on the basis of its [12] tribes. Is there anywhere else in Scripture where God speaks of tribes of peoples?

In Gen: 25 verses 13 through 16, we see clearly from the record that there are also [12] princes (tribes) based on the peoples of the EAST. Is this some freak of nature or some fluke of history that Isaac has [2] sons and the first becomes last and the last becomes first? Ishmael has [2] sons – Nebaioth and Kedar; the first become last and the last becomes first. Jacob has [12] sons who become the [12] tribes of Israel and Ishmael’s [12] sons become the princes from which the [12] tribes of the EAST arise.

Is this coincidence or is God doing something? YOU DECIDE!

Many within the Christian world do not accept that God alone is the only purveyor of absolute truth. He alone has the right to speak to whomever he wants and in whatever way He so chooses.

False teachings have made us callous in our understand and have shut us into a vacuum of exclusivity where we believe that God can only speak to a specific kind of person while dismissing the others because of whatever reasons. We forget that Christ came to save all. So God will speak to the Chinese, the Indian, the Muslim, the Buddhist – whoever He wants to reach, He will extend a hand to lead and guide men into the truth.

In the story of Joseph, he was sold into Egypt by his brothers. His brothers wanted initially to kill him but they decided to sell him to the Ishmaelites. The Bible says that a band of Midianite traders came by and so they pulled him out the pit and sold him. Is the Bible creating some confusion here in this context?

From this historical frame, we can see clearly where both the children of Hagar and the children of Keturah were living together – as the traders in spices, silks and other forms of merchandize, they are the ones who took Joseph from his brothers in lieu of the fact that down in Egypt, they could fetch a handsome price for him because of his physical stature. Joseph was not ill-treated by his distant cousins but was so well-fed and watered that on arrival in Egypt, Potiphar took him into his house because of his physical beauty and stature.

In a similar story, Moses’ brethren were fighting amongst themselves and he intervened and was asked if he wanted to kill them the same way he had killed the Egyptian earlier.

There is a line that seems to run through Scripture where brother wants to kill brother. This started in Eden. Clearly Moses’ brothers hated him and wanted him killed. The Pharaoh loved Moses as his own son because he was the son of his daughter. But when the news reached the Pharaoh of what had happened Moses ran off into Midian because his brethren brought bad news (false witness/gossip) into the royal court.

So for the next 40 years Moses lived in the land of Midian. Jethro – the priest of Midian became Moses’ father in law.

Many religious writers and scholars wrote books on Jethro claiming that he was an idol worshipper. But the Bible does not say that, neither does it infer it. Actually, Moses learns about the “TRUE” God from his father-in-law Jethro. For while, the children of Israel had lost their spiritual identity after 400 years in Egypt and where no priesthood existed, Jethro was a priest on to God, worshipping Him according to what had be laid down in ages past by the Spirit that had spoken through Abraham and his posterity.

When the Israelites were without the knowledge of the One True God, the children of Midian (the people of the EAST) were keeping the Sabbaths, carrying out the functions of the priesthood and worshipping the One True God.

When the Bible speaks of Ishmael being a wild donkey, it is speaking of the freedoms which the peoples of the EAST enjoyed unlike the children of Israel who were in captivity for 400 years.

There is an interesting paradox in the Word of God where Jethro – the priest of Midian relates to Moses a story of a man called Job. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone person so clearly detailed as to their possessions in the way that Job was. It was almost an accounting ledger of his assets down to the last minutiae.

Job chapter 1 verse 1- 3 says that this man was perfect and upright before God and stayed away from evil. The Bible says that this man was the greatest of all the men of the EAST. Was Job an Israelite? Clearly the answer is a resounding – NO!

He was a descendant from the line of either Ishmael or of the sons of Keturah. The story of Job was a popular story amongst those who lived in the EAST. The wealth of Job plus his righteous acts was common knowledge amongst the [12] tribes of the EAST.

So God used Jethro in the 40 years Moses lived with him to bring him into a knowledge of who God was and it became preparation for his Burning Bush experience; the deliverance and salvation of the Israelite tribes and the experiences for another [40] years wandering around the wilderness in search of the land that God would ultimately bring them into.

This line we have been discussing regarding how the Israelite people always wanted to kill or killed their own brothers. From Joseph who became the saviour of the nation in a time of unbelievable famine, to Moses their deliverer who was kept, taught and sheltered by his brethren in the EAST, to all the prophets who were killed from Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah to John the Baptist.

Then came Jesus – The Son of Man, the son of Mary and they took him too and murdered Him on a cross because He claimed to be the Son of God.

When we look at the genesis of the Christian church in the Acts of the Apostles, we see on the day of Pentecost that the ARABS* were the ones who received the Word of God spoken by Peter and the Apostles. They heard about Jesus in their own languages (the Libyans, Ethiopians, Africans, the Persians were all there) and their heart were pricked as they accepted Him as Lord and Saviour. This was to be the beginning of the knowledge of Jesus Christ to the people of EAST because the Scriptures shows that even the Ethiopian eunuch who was Queen Candice’s treasurer took the Gospel of Jesus Christ back to his homeland anointed by the fires of the Holy Spirit. Can you imagine the unwritten history of these men and their exploits for God in their own nations?

When the Jews had rejected the message of Jesus – the Arab people and those from the East accepted with open arms the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In Matt: 2:1, the Bible says:

“Now Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, in the days of Herod the king, and behold there came wise men from the EAST to Jerusalem. Saying, Where is He that is born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the EAST and have come to worship Him.”

How ironic that wise men who were worshippers of the One True God and who had studied the sacred text and knew of the prophetic times were able to discern from their deep study of the stars that Jesus Christ had been born while the Jews were oblivious to the knowledge of His presence far less the time of His visitation.

Just as the children of the EAST were worshipping the One True God in the days of Israel’s captivity and they were in darkness to who Jehovah God really was – so it was at the birth of Christ that the men of EAST were the first to announce the Saviour’s coming and be the ones to come and offer worship, adoration and precious gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

So again, just as in Acts of the Apostles, where 3000 for whom were Arabs, Africans and others from the Eastern lands heard the Word gladly and received Jesus – so it is again with the Wise Men who travelled a great distance just to worship the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, Jesus The Christ.

So 500 years before the coming of Jesus Christ, the prophet Isaiah in chapter 60 verse 6 prophesied that wise men will come on camels (not on donkeys, not in chariots); men from the lands of Midian (Jethro’s countrymen), Ephah and Sheba (The Eastern Lands) would come bearing gold and incense.

Many refuse to accept the Bible story. Many would rather accept the Christian story. We refuse to accept that the Christian story has been unadulterated by Greek mythology and Roman paganism. Christianity has been plagued by one-sided religious dogma which pits brother against brother. The Bible story is two-sided because it includes both sides of the coin.

Before Jesus Christ can return, the prophet says that “the flocks of Kedar must be gathered together to the Lord…the rams of Nebaioth (the sons of Ishmael – the Muslim nations) must minister to the Lord Jesus…they must come fully assured of salvation offering an offering of righteousness to the Lord…only then will the glory of the House of God be at its fullest..”

So the wealth – both physical and spiritually of the Muslim nations will be brought into the endtime church of Jesus Christ as a sign as did the Wise Men in His first Advent. Their ardour and ferverence in prayer will be magnified ten fold as they come into the knowledge of Christ and are baptized with the Latter Rain as the 3000 who were baptized with the Former Rain at Pentecost.

May we pray for the deliverance of all of the sons of Abraham…


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281 responses to “What Does The Bible Really Say About The Sons Of Abraham – And What Will It Take For This Dysfunctional Family To Become As One?”


  1. @ BUSH TEA*

    “In my humble bushy opinion, since Anno Domini Nostri Iesu Jesu Christi, the ‘chosen people’ of this world have been those who have been given the very spirit of God as so eloquently explained by Paul…The ‘chosen’ status of the physical peoples called Jews was but a foretaste of the great work that was to be done by the Messiah… ”

    Brother man, the stuff you come up with… LOL

    In all seriousness, (but first, I appreciate the kinder, gentler approach you have been exemplifying these days – shows real character) –

    We must be careful to think for ourselves…

    For me, as a child of God, EVERYTHING* must be fulfilled and has been fulfilled in CHRIST*** (PERIOD – NO “ands” “ifs” or “buts”)…

    Since the days of Paul the APOSTLE* – there has been a religious current in our theology (transposed by SATAN) that propagates and promulgates this idea of [2] COVENANTS*…

    It is nowhere to found in the grand schema of GOD’S* plans for humanity…

    Genesis to REVELATION points to one person and one person ALONE* (YESHUA MESSIAH)…

    For all those who want other forms of reasoning (including what in some circles is called “ACADEMIC PURITY”) – the concept in and of itself is FALLACIOUS; an OXYMORON and an insult to the wise man SOLOMON who reminds all of us that there is “NOTHING” new under the heaven…

    PURITY* is in CHRIST (Period!)…

    But Bushman, let satisfy the naysayers, soothsayers and those astrologers amongst us who are looking for some “guiding star” to light their pathway but moreover to hold on to because their lives seem so void of meaning and direction…

    Permit a small anecdote or maybe in this case, a postscript…

    The BIBLE* remind us that – “every servant is worthy of his hire”…

    FOR THE RECORD – I AM NOT GETTING PAID TO DO THIS – SO THERE IS NO CALCULABLE VALUE OR REASON FOR DOING IT…

    That said – let us continue….


  2. @ BUSH TEA

    For the sake of “academic expediency” – permit me to quote from one of my most respected professors, mentors and friend – the late Dr. Sam Bacchiocchi ( someone whom I got a chance to spend time with before his death in 2008) – a respected authority in his field of Church History & Theology.

    He is the first NON-CATHOLIC* to study at the prestigious Pontifical Gregorian University in (Vatican) ROME, where he was to be admitted in over 450 years of its history…

    At the Gregoriana, he spent the next [5] years working toward a Doctoratus in Church History…

    He was awarded the “GOLD MEDAL” by Pope Paul VI for attaining the academic distinction of Summa Cum Laude for his classic work and dissertation “FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY”… (Go figure)!!!

    He has authored over 15 books; wrote thousands of pamphlets and has contributed to scores of publication in his 50 years…

    I am blessed to be able to cite and reference someone whose stature testifies for itself…

    I will allow SAM* (posthumously) to explain the current dilemmas being discussed here (for the oxymoronic sake of so-called academic purity)…

    My “GUT” feeling ( well I won’t make that “privy” just yet)…

    Let’s see what happens first!!!

    But here goes:-

    A THEOLOGY OF CONTEMPT FOR THE JEWS by (Dr.S.Bacchiocchi)

    The controversy over the covenants is not a phenomenon of our times.

    It can be traced back to the early church.

    It stems largely from the theology of contempt for the Jews that was fabricated by such second century Christian writers like Barnabas and Justin Martyr in order to sanction the Roman persecution of the Jews as a fulfillment of their divine rejection.

    For example, Justin Martyr, a leader of the church of Rome in the middle of the second century, argues that the Sabbath and circumcision are the signs of the Old Covenant given to the Jews as the mark of the divine reprobation of the Jewish race.

    According to Justin, these signs were to serve “as a distinguishing mark, to set you [Jews] off from other nations and from us Christians.

    The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are justly yours.”

    These documents are examined at length in chapter 7 of my dissertation From Sabbath to Sunday.

    The anti-Jewish stigma of the Old Covenant can be traced historically through much of the Christian literature.

    Traces of it can be found even in some Adventist publications.

    Few days ago I received the newly released book by Ellet J. Waggoner, The Everlasting Covenant, which consists of a series of articles the author published in The Present Truth during 1896-97.

    The book is published and highly recommended by the Glad Tidings Publishers (2002) in Berrien Springs, Michigan.

    To my surprise I found that Waggoner explains that the Old Covenant was made at Sinai because of the Israelites’ transgressions.

    “They had lightly esteemed the ‘everlasting covenant’ which God made with Abraham, and therefore He made this one with them, as a witness against them.”

    To suggest that at Sinai God made a covenant with the Israelites “as a witness against them,” that is, to reveal their disobedience, means to attribute to God evil intent.

    It means to perpetrate the theology of contempt for the Jews that plagued Christianity through the centuries.

    More important still, it means to fail to realize, as we shall shortly see, that God’s covenant at Sinai reveals God’s gracious provision of salvation just as much as the New Covenant does.

    THE INFLUENCE OF DISPENSATIONALISM

    In recent years the controversy over the covenants has been rekindled by the adoption of what is known as “Dispensationalism” among most evangelical churches.

    The name “Dispensationalism” derives from the belief that redemptive history is divided into distinct dispensations or segment of time, in each of which God has been working with humanity in a different way.

    Dispensationalism is taught in principle at the Chicago Moody Bible Institute and at an estimated two hundred Bible institutes in the United States.

    Its official magazine is Bibliotheca Sacra which was inherited by Dallas Theological Seminary in 1934.

    Other magazines such as Christianity Today supports some of the dispensational views of the End.

    Popular books like Left Behind and The Late Great Planet Earth, have influenced millions of persons to accept the dispensational End-time scenario of the Rapture of the Church followed by the tribulation of the Jews and unbelievers.

    Dispensationalists interpret the Old and New Covenants as representing “TWO” different plans of salvation for two different people – Israel and the Church.

    In other words, God has not only two different plans of salvation, but also two different people.

    The destiny of each is supposed to be different, not only in this present age but also throughout eternity.

    “Throughout the ages,” writes Lewis Sperry Chafer, a leading Dispensational theologian, “God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives, which is Christianity.”

    What God has united by breaking down the wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles (Eph 2:14), Dispensationalists are trying to divide by rebuilding the wall of partition not only for the present age but for all eternity.

    It is hard to believe that intelligent, responsible Christians would dare to fabricate such a divisive theology that grossly misrepresents the fairness and justice of God’s redemptive activities.

    LET’S EXAMINE FURTHER WHAT MY MENTOR & PROFESSOR SAYS ON THESE ISSUES…


  3. I give my support to the under dog day by day
    Motherless Children in the street
    searching to find a bite to eat
    I’ve seen motherless children in the street
    No clothes on their back no shoes on their feet
    Yet they serve jah lord continually
    and righteousness shall flow among them abundantly
    so protect them select them defend them there while the heathen object them


  4. @ BUSH TEA

    cont’d…

    ISRAEL IN PROPHECY (Dr. S. Bacchiocchi)

    It is widely believed among Evangelical Christians that the steady return of Jews to Palestine during this century, and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, represent an amazing fulfillment of specific Old Testament promises made to the Israelites.

    Furthermore, this alleged fulfillment is viewed as the prelude to such final events as the Rapture, the Tribulation, the rebuilding of the Jerusalem Temple, the conversion of the Jews, the Return of Christ, and the establishment of the millennial Jewish kingdom ruled over by Christ from David’s throne in Jerusalem.

    Leon J. Wood aptly expresses this popular view in The Bible and Future Events: “The clearest sign of Christ’s return is the modern state of Israel . . .

    One should realize that God’s timetable could call for Israel to be in the land for many years before bringing the fruition of the age. But with the nation actually there, and with many factors concerning it fitting into conditions set forth in Scripture for the last days, . . . one may safely believe that Christ’s coming is not far in the future.”

    Hal Lindsey is even more specific by asserting that the political restoration of Israel in 1948 is not only “one of the most important events of our age,” but also “the most important prophetic sign to herald the era of Christ’s return.” He even boldly predicted in 1970 that “within forty years or so of 1948, all these things could take place.”

    A REMARKABLE EVENT.

    To say the least, the return of many Jews to Palestine and the establishment of the State of Israel are most remarkable happenings. So it is not surprising that many Christians and Jews see in these events which have transpired in the Middle East the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies.

    But is this a legitimate interpretation of prophecies?

    It is quite possible to believe personally that the Jewish people have a moral or historical right to the land of Palestine and that God has providentially led in the establishment of the State of Israel, but can such a belief be legitimately grounded on Biblical prophecies?

    To answer this question, it is necessary briefly to examine at least some of the prophecies generally adduced in support of this belief.

    OLD TESTAMENT RESTORATION PROPHECIES

    God’s Promises to Israelites. There is, first, God’s promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit “all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession” (Gen 17:8; cf. 12:7; 13:15; 15:18).

    In addition there are promises in some of the prophets that speak of a “second” return of the Israelites (Is 11:11) to their homeland “from all the nations” (Jer 29:14).

    Dispensationalists believe that this predicted return is supposed to be in unbelief (Ezek 36:24-26; cf. Jer 30).

    They find confirmation for such a belief in what is taking place today.

    The restoration promises are viewed as unconditional literal promises whose fulfillment began for the first time in 1948 with the dramatic recovery of part of Palestine by the Jews. Previous possessions and dispossessions of the land of Canaan by the Israelites supposedly do not fulfill God’s territorial promises for at least two reason.

    First, God promised not temporary but “everlasting possession” of the land (Gen 17:8). Second, the Israelites have never possessed in the past all the promised land “from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates” (Gen 15:18).

    CONDITIONAL NATURE OF GOD’S PROMISE

    The above literalistic interpretation of God’s territorial promises ignores first of all their conditional nature. God’s promise of land to Abraham’s progeny was conditional on a continuing obedience to His covenant requirements: “God said to Abraham, ‘As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations” (Gen 17:9; cf. 18:19).

    The conditional nature of the promise of the land in the Abrahamic covenant is clearly recognized in the Scriptures. Moses, for example, after the Kadesh rebellion, reminded the new generation that disobedience prevented their parents from entering the land of promise: “Not one of these men of this evil generation shall see the good land which I swore to give to your fathers” (Deut 1:35; cf. Num 14:22-23).

    Anticipating the expulsion of the Israelites from the land on account of disobedience, Moses admonished the people to “return to the Lord,” who in turn would remember “the covenant with your fathers which he swore to them” (Deut 4:30-31; cf. Deut 30:2, 3; I Kings 8:47-50).

    The conditional nature of God’s promises is perhaps best stated in Jeremiah 18:9-10 where the Lord declares: “If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will “BUILD” and “PLANT” it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will repent of the good which I had intended to do it.”

    The principles established in this passage is that God’s predictions of weal or woe for a nation are conditional upon obedience or disobedience. Obviously it is only by God’s grace that believers can fulfill the conditions, but the fact remains that the conditions are there and no one has the right to take the “ifs” out of the Bible.

    THE RETURN IN UNBELIEF

    Dispensationalists “refuse” to apply the principle of the conditional nature of God’s promises to the predictions regarding the return of the Jews to Palestine. They appeal to passages such as Ezekiel 22:17 and 36:24-28 to argue that “the Jews are to be gathered back to the land in a state of unbelief.

    The national conversion to Jesus Christ their Messiah will not take place until after they are restored to the land” v.46. In other words, the territorial restoration of the Jews is supposed to precede their conversion to the Messiah.

    Unfortunately, this belief is based on a misinterpretation of certain Biblical texts.

    For example, the statement found in Ezekiel 22:19-20, “I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath,” is taken to refer to the present emigration of the Jews to Palestine in unbelief.

    This interpretation is erroneous for at least two reasons.

    First of all, in the preceding verses Ezekiel is describing not the future but the contemporary situation of the Israelites by enumerating their sins which will cause God to scatter them “among the nations” (v. 15).

    Second, the gathering of the Jews “in my anger and in my wrath” refers not to their return to Palestine in unbelief, but to the finality of God’s judgment upon their disobedience which historically took place through the Babylonian invasions and captivity.

    This passage leaves no doubt that the purpose of the gathering is for judgment, not restoration. This is clear in the following verse where the Lord says: “I will gather you and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it” (Ezek 22:21). Thus the gathering in Ezekiel, like the assemblying in Jeremiah (8:14), is for the purpose not of restoration and salvation but of judgment and destruction.

    REGATHERING AND CLEANSING

    The second “proof text” generally cited to support the return-in-unbelief view, is Ezekiel 36:24-25: “For I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the countries, and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.”

    The fact that the promise of territorial restoration precedes the spiritual cleansing of the people in this passage is taken to mean that first the Jews will return to Palestine in unbelief and afterward they will be cleansed and redeemed.

    This conclusion is based on an artificial chronological sequence which cannot be derived from the passage.

    Ezekiel is not saying that the Lord first will regather the Israelites and then at a subsequent period He will cleanse them. He simple declares that God will do two things for His people: He will regather and cleanse them. No hint is given that the two events will be separated by an undetermined length of time.

    The context of the chapter suggests that the regathering and the cleansing will take place at the same time, with the spiritual cleansing preceding rather than following the regathering: “On that day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt” (Ezek 36:33).

    Observations such as these clearly show that Ezekiel 36:24-28 offers no proof for a twentieth-century return of the Jews in unbelief to Palestine.

    TWO BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES

    Further support for this conclusion is provided by two basic Biblical teachings regarding the land of promise.

    First, historically it was unbelief that prevented the Israelites from entering the land of Canaan (Num 14:23; Ps 95:7, 11).

    This truth is reiterated by the author of Hebrews when he emphasizes that unbelief disqualifies anyone from entering the rest which the Sabbath typifies, whether it be the political rest in the land of Canaan (Heb 3:18-19; 4:6-8) or the spiritual rest of salvation (Heb 4:3, 9, 10).

    If unbelief prevented the initial entrance into the land of Canaan, it can hardly provide the condition accompanying a return to it.

    Second, God rewards obedience, not disobedience, with the covenant privileges. The restoration predicted by the prophets is conditional in character. Israel will be restored “if they repent with all their mind and with all their heart in the land of their enemies” (1 King 8:38; cf. Hosea 11:10, 11; Deut 30: 2, 3, 9, 10).

    A “SECOND” GATHERING

    Another prophecy viewed by many as a proof text for the present reconstitution of Israel is found in Isaiah 11:11: “in that day the Lord will extend His hand yet a second time to recover the remnant which is left of His people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Ethiopia, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.”

    Isaiah’s reference to “a second” gathering of the remnant of Israel from many nations is viewed as being fulfilled today for the first time with the return of some Jews to the reconstituted State of Israel.

    The latter is seen as the prelude to the final regathering of Israel, which, to use J. F. WALVOORD’S words, “will have its culmination when Israel’s Messiah returns to the earth in power and glory to reign.”

    This view rests on the assumption that the “second” gathering predicted by Isaiah was not fulfilled when a faithful remnant of Israel returned from Babylon to Jerusalem in 536 B.C. under Zerubbabel and again in 457 B.C. under Ezra.

    Two main reasons are generally given.

    First, the return from the Babylonian exile was only from one nation, Babylon, and not “from all the nations” (Jer 29:14; cf. Is 11:11).

    Second, the return from the Babylonian exile was but a pale reflection of the grandiose return envisioned by Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Isaiah.

    A RETURN “FROM ALL THE NATIONS”

    The first reason ignores three significant facts.

    First, it was customary at that time to sell prisoners of war to other nations, so that they were dispersed far and wide (Joel 3:7; Jer 42-44; Ezek 27:13; Amos 1:6, 9).

    In a gradual return from captivity it would be natural for some of the widely dispersed Jews to go back to Palestine from many countries. This is what apparently took place after the Babylonian exile, since those who returned did not belong exclusively to the tribe of Judah but also to the other tribes as well (Ezra 2:59; 6Z:17; 1 Chron. 9:33, 34).

    Second, the prophets sometimes fuse together references to a return from “the land of their captivity” (i.e. Babylon) with a return from “all the nations,” because to their minds these expressions were simply variant ways of describing the condition of the Jews in exile and God’s promised restoration.

    A good example is found in Jeremiah 30:10-11, where the two expressions are used interchangeably in the same passage: “Fear not, O Jacob my servant, . . . for lo, I will save you from afar, and your offspring from the land of their captivity . . . I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I scattered you” (cf. Jer 31:8, 11; 46:27).

    Third, to apply literally and consistently Isaiah’s prediction of “a second” gathering of Israel from many nations to the contemporary return of the Jews to Palestine would require that the Jews destroy or plunder or subjugate the Philistines, the Edomites, and Moabites, and the Ammonites, as stated in the context of Isaiah’s prophecy: “They shall swoop down upon the shoulder of the Philistines in the west, and together they shall plunder the people of the east. They shall put forth their hand against Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites shall obey them” (Is 11:14).

    Since these nations have long ago disappeared, it is hard to see how the Jews today could fulfill literally Isaiah’s prediction of “a second” gathering.

    This fanciful prophetic interpretation could be avoided simply by carefully reading the context, which clearly speaks of “a second” return of a remnant from Assyria, in relation to the first return from Egypt under Moses: “There will be a highway from Assyria for the remnant which is left of his people, as there was for Israel when they came up from the land of Egypt” (Is 11:16).

    Assyria is mentioned first (also in v. 11) presumably because Isaiah wrote these words after the Northern Kingdom had been deported to Assyria in 721 B.C.

    Thus this prophecy had a literal fulfillment when the Israelites returned from captivity in the sixth century B.C.

    LIMITED RETURN FROM BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY

    The second reason maintains that the trickle of Jews who returned to Palestine under Zerubbabel in 536 B.C. and under Ezra in 457 B.C. was only a pale reflection of the grandiose return envisioned by the prophets.

    Moreover, the Jews did not experience the economic prosperity and agricultural fertility predicted by the prophets (Is 35:1; 61:4).

    The surrounding nations were not destroyed and continued to threaten the Jews again and again.

    Consequently, one must look allegedly for a later fulfillment in the events of our time.

    The return of the Jews to the land is now in progress.

    Israel has become the strongest military power of the Middle East. The soil is being reclaimed after centuries of neglect, through the diversion of water from the Jordan to irrigate the Negev desert.

    These developments have led many Christians to believe that those restoration prophecies are indeed being fulfilled today.

    A travel advertisement in Christianity Today (October 27, 1967) aptly expresses this popular belief: “Is Prophecy Being Fulfilled in the Bible Lands Today? Come and See.”

    THREEFOLD FULFILLMENT OF RESTORATION PROPHECIES

    It can hardly be disputed that the restoration prophecies were not completely fulfilled in the post-exilic period and that it is appropriate to look for a fuller fulfillment at a later time. However, in looking for a greater fulfillment it is important to recognize that prophecies regarding the Land of Canaan and the restoration of Israel may be fulfilled in a threefold way: literally, figuratively, and anti-typically.

    LITERAL FULFILLMENT

    God’s territorial promise to Abraham’s progeny was first fulfilled literally several times. Joshua, for example, declares: “The Lord gave to Israel all the land which he swore to give to their father: and having taken possession of it, they settled there . . . Not one of all the good promises which the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass” (Josh 21:43, 45; cf. 1 Kings 8:56; Jer 32:21-23).

    Similarly, the promised restoration of the Jews to Palestine predicted by the prophets found an initial literal fulfillment when a remnant of the Jews returned under Zerubbabel, Ezra, and Nehemiah.

    Jeremiah, for example, in the same passage where he announces the restoration of the Jews “from all the nations” (Jer 29:14), explicitly explains when the promised restoration would take place: “Thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place” (Jer 29:10). Daniel correctly understood that this prophecy would be fulfilled not at a distant future but in his own time (Dan 9:2).

    FIGURATIVE FULFILLMENT

    God’s promise of the land to Abraham’s progeny and of the restoration of Israel have also been fulfilled in a second way, figuratively.

    The New Testament explains that the land and blessings promised to Abraham’s posterity have been fulfilled not only literally, in the past return of the Jews to Palestine, but also figuratively in and through the “Coming of Christ”, Who is the intent and content of God’s covenant with Abraham (Acts 3:25-26; 13:16, 32-33).

    Paul explains that the promises which God “made to Abraham and to his offspring” (Gal 3:16) have been fulfilled through Christ, because He is the epitome of the true seed of Abraham.

    The fulfillment, however, consists not in a future repossession of Palestine by the Jews, but rather in the inheritance of the whole renewed earth by believers in Christ from all nations (Rom 4:13; Matt 5:5, 3; Rev 21:1-8).

    INGATHERING OF THE GENTILES

    Not only God’s territorial promise to Abraham’s progeny, but also the later predictions regarding the restoration of Israel, are seen in the New Testament as fulfilled figuratively through the coming of Christ.

    At the Jerusalem Council, for example, after Peter, Paul, and Barnabas reported how God brought many Gentiles into the faith, James, who apparently presided over the council, said: “Brethren, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His Name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written ‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says that Lord, who has made these things known from of old’” (Acts 15:14-18).

    James here quotes Amos’s prophecy regarding the restoration of David’s kingdom (Amos 9:11-12) which would bring about the “ingathering” of the Gentiles, and declares that this prophecy was being fulfilled through the ingathering of the Gentiles into the community of God’s people. We have here a clear example of a figurative New Testament fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy regarding the restoration of Israel.

    Noteworthy is the change made by James in translating Amos’s prophecy.

    Amos’s phrase “that they may possess the remnant of Edom” (Amos 9:12), becomes in Acts 15:17, “that the rest of men may seek the Lord.”

    What this means is that James saw the fulfillment of Amos’s prophecy not in a future political restoration of the Davidic dynasty that would militarily gain possession of the remnants of Edom, but rather in the spiritual reign of Christ which is voluntarily sought by believers.

    Here, then, the New Testament interprets figuratively an Old Testament prophecy regarding the restoration of Israel.

    ANTITYPICAL FULFILLMENT

    Prophecies about the Promised Land and the restoration of Israel will also be ultimately fulfilled antitypically – that is, in the final possession by all of God’s people of the new earth of which Canaan was a “type”.

    The Scripture indicates that the land of Canaan was a type of the inheritance of God’s people in the new earth.

    Hebrews explains that Abraham and his believing descendants saw the ultimate fulfillment of the promised land of Canaan, not in a return to “that land from which they had gone out,” but rather in reaching “a better country, that is, a heavenly one” (Heb 11:15-16).

    Consequently Abraham, who had been promised the land of Canaan, “looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Heb 11:10).

    The future “Holy City” (Rev 21:10), to which Abraham looked forward, will be the antitypical fulfillment of God’s promise to him of the everlasting possession of the land of Canaan.

    This promise will be fulfilled on the new earth for all the spiritual descendants of Abraham, believing Jews and believing Gentiles.

    Paul emphasizes this truth when he writes: “If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise” (Gal 3:29). As believers we are “heirs” to God’s promise made to Abraham regarding the land of Canaan. This promise will be ultimately fulfilled when we reach the “better country” and “inherit the world” (Heb 11:6; Rom 4:13).

    MESSIANIC RESTORATION

    The antitypical fulfillment also applies to the prophecies regarding the gathering of Israel from the dispersion.

    Isaiah’s prediction of “a second” gathering of the remnant of Israel (Is 11:11) is given in the context of the Coming of the Messiah as a glorious Judge who “shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Is 11:4).

    The outcome of this final judgment will be peace, justice, and harmony in the natural world, “for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea” (Is 11:5-9).

    At the time of the final Messianic restoration just described, “the Lord will extend His hand yet a second time to recover the remnant” from many nations (Is 11:11).

    What this means is that Isaiah forecasts the second gathering of Israel, not merely to the land of Canaan, but to the Messiah Himself at the time when He will come as a Judge to restore justice, peace, and prosperity to this world.

    This gathering is not only for Israel, but for all believers from many nations. (Is 11:11).

    The New Testament envisions this final gathering of believers from all nations at the glorious Return of Christ.

    At that time, “He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect form the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Matt 24:31).

    This final gathering will not be to the Middle East, but “from one end of heaven to the other” to the Savior.

    This is Christ’s final antitypical fulfillment of Isaiah’s predicted second gathering (cf. Matt 8:11-12).

    DEEPER MEANING OF ISRAEL AND CANAAN

    The question could be asked: Why then do the Old Testament prophets speak so plainly of a national restoration of Israel to its land, when the ultimate fulfillment of these prophecies is the inheritance of the new earth by the believers of all the ages?

    The answer is to be found in the fact that the Old Testament prophets often describe the ultimate blessedness by means of terms and experiences familiar to the Israelites of their days.

    For the prophets the term Israel signified the people of God and the land of Canaan represented the promised blessings of peace and prosperity.

    Because of these deeper meanings, these terms could serve to express the hope for the ultimate realization of God’s blessings for His people.

    We noted in Chapter 2 that the “prophetic perspective” enabled the prophets to see the final divine visitation and restoration through the transparency of imminent historical events.

    In the same way the final gathering of all believers (Is 11:11; 49:6) is sometimes described by the prophets in terms of the regathering of the remnant of Israel to its land.

    The above considerations on the literal, figurative, and antitypical fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies regarding the restoration of Israel lead us to conclude that there is a sense in which these prophecies were not fully realized in Old Testament times.

    However, their fuller realization must be sought, not in a political restoration of the Jews in Palestine, but in the universal gathering of all believers in the new earth.

    To limit the fulfillment of these prophecies to a political restoration of the Jews in Palestine, whether it be now or during the Millennium, is to ignore the witness of the New Testament which sees these prophecies fulfilled not in some future return of the Jews to Palestine but in the present gathering of believers into the Church and in a future universal gathering of people from all tribes, peoples, and tongues in the new earth.

    “THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES”

    One of the prophecies most quoted by dispensationalists to support the present return of the Jews to the city of Jerusalem is Luke 21:24: “Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

    Many Christians believe that this prophecy was fulfilled for the first time on June 6, 1967, when the Jews recaptured the Old City of Jerusalem, thus terminating its “treading down” by the Gentiles.

    The reasoning for this view is aptly expressed by a leading dispensationalist theologian, C. F. Baker: “If this city is trodden down until a certain time, there must of necessity come a time following that when the city will not be trodden down . . . If this Scripture teaches anything, it teaches that the earthly Jerusalem is to be restored.”

    Such reasoning sounds logical but it rests on a gratuitous interpretation of the adverb “until,” besides ignoring Christ’s overall teachings on this subject.

    The primary function of the adverb “until” in the phrase “until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” is to indicate the termination of the treading down of Jerusalem but not its restoration to a previous state of Jewish sovereignty.

    The adverb “until” (achri) in itself does not suggest a change to a previous situation.

    For example, in the admonition “Hold fast what you have, until I come” (Rev 2:25), the adverb “until” does not convey the idea of a change from a present condition of faithfulness to a previous condition of unfaithfulness (cf. Rev 2:10; 1 Cor 15:25).

    In this statement Jesus simply says that for Jerusalem the condition of being trampled underfoot will not cease within fifty or a hundred years, but will continue right on until His Second Coming.

    The event which follows the fulfillment of “the Times of the Gentiles” is not the restoration of Jewish sovereignty over the city of Jerusalem, but the Return of Christ (Luke 21:25-28).

    PREDICTION OF DESTRUCTION, NOT OF RESTORATION

    Note should be taken of the fact that in predicting the destruction of Jerusalem, Christ said nothing about its restoration.

    What Jesus taught instead is that the special status of the Jews as a people of God had come to an end (Matt 23:38; Luke 19:41-44).

    In the parable of the “Tenants in the Vineyard”, the unfaithful tenants do not regain possession of the Vineyard at a later time, but lose it forever, as God gives it “to a nation producing the fruits of it” (Matt 21:41-43).

    The same truth is expressed in the parable of the “Wedding Feast”, where the place of those who were originally invited to the feast is taken by all sorts of other people brought in from the street (Matt 22:1-10).

    Those who “sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven” “come from east and west . . . while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness” (Matt 8:11-12).

    This description of people coming “from east and west” alludes to certain prophetic descriptions of the return of the Jews from exile (cf. Is 43:5; Ps 107:3).

    Yet here Jesus clearly applies these prophecies to the gathering of all believing people, Jews and Gentiles.

    The New Testament foresees not the return of the Jews to a restored Jerusalem but the gathering of all believers to the New Jerusalem built by God Himself (Rev 21-22).

    CONCLUSION

    The unmistakable conclusion that emerges from this study of the major restoration prophecies is that none of these offers a forecast or even a hint of a restoration of the Jews to Palestine in our century as a prelude to the final events of earth’s history.

    We have found that the Scripture sees these prophecies as fulfilled literally when a remnant of Jews returned to Palestine from Babylon; figuratively when Christ came the first time to gather spiritually all believers unto Himself; and antitypically when Christ will return to gather physically His people “from one end of heaven to the other” to the new earth.

    The view that the political restoration of the Jews in 1948 is “the most important prophetic sign to herald the era of Christ’s return” is, then, a view which has no legitimate Biblical support.

    Unfortunately, however, such a mistaken view is the very basis upon which rests the popular scenario of End-time events promoted by popular Evangelical preachers today.

  5. Georgie Porgie Avatar


    • People All! Listen to Moses! Listen to the bar raiser the author of many books the hob nobber with Muslim Professors. The one who has a brother at Oxford Now we are to EXAMINE FURTHER WHAT HIS MENTOR & PROFESSOR SAYS ON THESE ISSUES… LOL

    Wait Suh? YOU DON’T THINK THAT THEY HAVE OTHER MENTORS AND PROFESSORS ELSEWHERE.
    Who is your most respected professors, mentors and friend – the late Dr. Sam Bacchiocchi ( someone whom you got a chance to spend time with before his death in 2008) – a respected authority in his field of Church History & Theology ? IS THIS MAN GOD? NO! IS HE THE HOLY SPIRIT? NO

    Re He is the first NON-CATHOLIC* to study at the prestigious Pontifical Gregorian University in (Vatican) ROME, where he was to be admitted in over 450 years of its history…At the Gregoriana, he spent the next [5] years working toward a Doctoratus in Church History…He was awarded the “GOLD MEDAL” by Pope Paul VI for attaining the academic distinction of Summa Cum Laude for his classic work and dissertation “FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY”… (Go figure)!!!
    He has authored over 15 books; wrote thousands of pamphlets and has contributed to scores of publication in his 50 years…

    SO WHAT? THEY ARE MANY BIBLE EXOSITORS OUT THERE WHO HAVE JUST AS GREAT AN ACADEMIC RECORD LOL OR BETTER

    You CANT DEFEND YOUR POSITION BY SHOWING WHAT THE SCRIPTURES REALLY TEACH YOU HAVE TO GO FOR DEAD SAM MAN? YOU TOO FUNNY

    Sam was surprised to find “that Waggoner explains that the Old Covenant was made at Sinai because of the Israelites’ transgressions. “ Man this is basic info taught in any good Sunday school in a good Bible teaching church.

    Re
    To suggest that at Sinai God made a covenant with the Israelites “as a witness against them,” that is, to reveal their disobedience, means to attribute to God evil intent.

    THAT IS HS NONSENSICAL CONCLUSION

    IT MEANS ONLY WHAT IT SAYS. GOD GAVE THEM A WARNING
    WHEN YOUR MOMMA WARNED YOU THAT SHE WOULD PUT SOME LICKS IN YOUR TAIL FOR DISOBEDIENCE WAS SHE EVIL? DID SHE HAVE EVIL INTENT OR GOOD?

    GOD GAVE ISRAEL A CHOICE AT SINAI. LOL

    The name “Dispensationalism” derives from the belief that redemptive history is divided into distinct dispensations or segment of time, in each of which God has been working with humanity in a different way.

    How else can you interpret the Bible

    Re Dispensationalism is taught in principle at the Chicago Moody Bible Institute and at an estimated two hundred Bible institutes in the United States.
    Its official magazine is Bibliotheca Sacra which was inherited by Dallas Theological Seminary in 1934.

    DISPENSAIONALISM IS WRONG FRIENDS BECAUSE THE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST DON’T TEACH IT LOL

    Re Dispensationalists interpret the Old and New Covenants as representing “TWO” different plans of salvation for two different people – Israel and the Church.
    In other words, God has not only two different plans of salvation, but also two different people.
    The destiny of each is supposed to be different, not only in this present age but also throughout eternity.

    THIS IS A LIE. THIS IS ACTUALLYTHE FIRST TIME I AM HEARING THIS RUBBISH

    What God has united by breaking down the wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles (Eph 2:14), Dispensationalists are trying to divide by rebuilding the wall of partition not only for the present age but for all eternity. THIS IS A LIE. THIS IS ACTUALLY THE FIRST TIME I AM HEARING THIS RUBBISH

    No intelligent, responsible Christians would dare to fabricate such a divisive theology that grossly misrepresents the fairness and justice of God’s redemptive activities. NONE

    BUT THE SAD SDA NO IT ALL WOULD TELL FOLK WHAT THE TEACH AND WHAT THEY BELIEVE BECAUSE THEY GO BY WHAT THEIR MENTOR & PROFESSOR SAYS ON THESE ISSUES… LOL

    DON’T intelligent, responsible Christians intelligent, responsible Christians have WHAT THEIR MENTOR & PROFESSOR TOO? LOL
    FRIENDS IF SAM WAS NOT YOUR MENTOR YOU’VE MISSED THE BOAT BECAUSE SAM IS THE MAN IN THE VAN! AND ONLY THE ADVENTISTS HAVE IT RIGHT

    THE ADVENTISTS CAME ON THE SCENE WHEN? AND ONLY THEY KNOW IT ALL

    ALL THE THEOLOGY THATWAS TAUGHT ANY WHERE IS WRONG
    ONLY TERRENCE AND SAM AND THE SDA”S GOT THE TRUTH FRIENDS.

    For get Chaffer and Waldvord and anything coming out of Chicago Moody Bible Institute and at an estimated two hundred Bible institutes in the United States or .
    Dallas Theological Seminary in 1934.

    IT IS NO LONGER BIBLIO SOLO ITS SAM SOLO ITS THE SDA SOLO

    ITS TERRENCE”S MENTOR & PROFESSOR SOLO!

    Man I have never heard such rubbish in the last 42 years.

    Don’t read the Bible for your self like the Bereans in Acts 17. Don’t let the Holy Spirit help you to interpret the Word FOLLOW SAM TERRENCE AND THE SDA’s SOLO!

    MAN THIS MAN IS SUCH A JOKER.
    I HAVE NO DENOMINATIONAL DOGMA TO GIVE FRIENDS

    AND I HAVE NO MENTORS OR PROFESSORS

    I compare anything I read to what THE WORD says using Coopers simple rule.

    WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE MAKES COMMON SENSE SEEK NO PTHER SENSE BUT INTERPRET EVEY WORD LITERALLY UNLESS THE CONTEXT INDICATES OTHERWISE.

  6. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    Listen to this nonsense friends

    PREDICTION OF DESTRUCTION, NOT OF RESTORATION

    Note should be taken of the fact that in predicting the destruction of Jerusalem, Christ said nothing about its restoration.

    MY QUESTION IS WHY SHOULD HE? THE RESTORATION WAS PREDICTED OVER AND OVER BY SEVERAL PROPHETS. WHY SHOULD JESUS REINVENT THE WHEEL?

    DID SAM NOT TEACH THE PURPOSE OF THE OLIVET DISCOURSE WHAT JESUS DEMONSTRATED THEREAT?

    WAS PROPHECY GIVEN BEFORE THIS TIME?
    WAS ANY PROPHECY GIVEN AFTER THE OLIVET DISCOURSE

    HOW MUCH OF THE PROPHESY GIVEN BEFORE OR AFTER THE OLIVET DISCOURSE DID JESUS ADRESS, SIr. I SUGGEST YOU WAKE UP SAM AND ASK HIM.

    What Jesus taught instead is that the special status of the Jews as a people of God had come to an end (Matt 23:38; Luke 19:41-44).
    In the parable of the “Tenants in the Vineyard”, the unfaithful tenants do not regain possession of the Vineyard at a later time, but lose it forever, as God gives it “to a nation producing the fruits of it” (Matt 21:41-43).
    The same truth is expressed in the parable of the “Wedding Feast”, where the place of those who were originally invited to the feast is taken by all sorts of other people brought in from the street (Matt 22:1-10).
    Those who “sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven” “come from east and west . . . while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness” (Matt 8:11-12).

    THESE PARABLES SIGNAL THE END OF ONE DISPENSATION AND THE END OF ANOTHER

    DOES ROMANS 9-11 TEACH THAT GOD IS FINISHED WITH THE JEWS

    DOES NOT ROMANS 9-11 EXPLAIN THESE PARABLES/

    IS NOT THE BIBLE THE BEST COMMENTARY AND EXPOSITOR OF THE BIBLE/

    DID NOT PETER TEACH THAT NO SCRIPTURE IS OF PRIVATE INTERPRETATION? ARE WE NOOT TO COMPARE SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE? oR ARE WE ONLY TO GO BY SAM’S DOCTRINES AND INTERPRETATIONS?

    This description of people coming “from east and west” alludes to certain prophetic descriptions of the return of the Jews from exile (cf. Is 43:5; Ps 107:3).
    Yet here Jesus clearly applies these prophecies to the gathering of all believing people, Jews and Gentiles.

    good!

    nOW SEE HOW YTOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF
    The New Testament foresees not the return of the Jews to a restored Jerusalem but the gathering of all believers to the New Jerusalem built by God Himself (Rev 21-22).

    yOU JUST SAID THAT This description of people coming “from east and west” alludes to certain prophetic descriptions of the return of the Jews from exile (cf. Is 43:5; Ps 107:3). WHICH IS THE CORRECT INTERPRETAION.

    THE SCRIPTURES OVER AND OVER PREDICTS THE RETURN OF THE JEWS FROPM ALL OVER THE WORLD.
    IT ALSO PREDICTS THAT THE GENTILES WILL BE A PART OF THE MILLENNIUM IN SEVERAL PLACES SO JESUS WAS ONLY SAYNG WHAT THE OT SCRIPTURES HAD SAID OVER AND OVER.

    gO AND ASK sAM MAN ROTFLMAO

  7. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    rE CONCLUSION
    The unmistakable conclusion that emerges from this study of the major restoration prophecies is that none of these offers a forecast or even a hint of a restoration of the Jews to Palestine in our century as a prelude to the final events of earth’s history.

    WELL HAS THERE BEEN A RESTORATION OF THE JEWS TO PALESTINE IN THE LAST CENTURY? YES OR NO?

    DID THE SCRIPTURES PREDICT A RETURN OF JEWS TO THE LAND? YES OR NO?

    HAS THIS RETURN OCCURED? YES OR NO?

    HAS THE FINAL EVENTS OF WORLD HISTORY YET OCCURED? YES OR NO?

    IF THE FINAL EVENTS OF WORLD HISTORY HAVE NOT YET OCCURED THEN ONE DOES NOT NEED SAM TO TELL US THAT THE RETURN OF JEWS TO ISRAEL IN UNPRECEDENTED NUMBERS IS A LITERAL FULFILLMENT OF SCRIPTURE IN OUR TIMES JUST AS NUMERPUS SCRIPTURES HAVE PREDICTED.

    mY LITTLE DONKEY IN THE YARDS IS SAYING “The unmistakable conclusion that emerges from thE RETURN OF jEWS TO iSRAEL SINCE 1948 IS FULFILLMENT of the MANY AND major restoration prophecies OF THE OT AND A prelude to the final events of earth’s history JUST AS jESUS PREDICTED IN THE oLIVET dISCOURSE.
    .

    We KNOW THAT WHEN THE JEWS RETURNED TO JERUSALEM UNDER NEHEMIAH EXRA AND ZERRUNBBABEL THAT ONLY 2055 OF THOSE IN EXILE RETURNED SO HOW THIS WOULD REPRESENT A LITERAL FULFILLMMENT IS BEYOND ME AND EVEN MYLITTLE DONKEY.

    TELL ME OH THOU STUDENT OF SAM AND SCHOLAR AUTHOR AND RAISER OF THE BAR

    WHERE have YOU found that the Scripture sees these prophecies as fulfilled literally when a remnant of Jews returned to Palestine from Babylon? Could you give us the scripture references to support this .

    Is it not true in Haggai that the prophet spoke of a greater glory of the temple there were building? Why would the failure of 80% of the exiles represent a literal fulkfillment of prophecies?

    When Jesus Christ came the first time he said that he came to seek the lost AT NO TIME DID HE SAY THAT HE CAME TO FIGURATIVELY FULFILL ANY PROPGECIES CONCERNING THE INGATHERING OR RESTORATION OF ISRAEL If I am incorrect please provide the NT reference Sir, or go ask Sam! LOL

    The political restoration of the Jews is a very important prophetic sign to herald the era of Christ’s return BECAUSE JESUS GAVE US THIS AS A SIGN IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE. What more legitimate Biblical support do you need Sir

    It seems that Sam got that wrong too, man! Ah lie?

    Did Sam also teach you that the other lines have to become pally paly before the second coming oh thou most extinguished scholar, author and raiser of the bar?

  8. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    “THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES”
    One of the prophecies most quoted by dispensationalists to support the present return of the Jews to the city of Jerusalem is Luke 21:24: “Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”
    Many Christians believe that this prophecy was fulfilled for the first time on June 6, 1967, when the Jews recaptured the Old City of Jerusalem, thus terminating its “treading down” by the Gentiles.
    ==========================================
    Mr Scholar Have you heard of the law of first mention?
    Have you heard of the rule given by the Spirit through Peter THAT NO SCRIOTURE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETAION

    Have you examined the occurences of the term “time of the gentiles.” Go ask Sam when the times of the gentiles began, and when it will end Sir?

    Let me teach you a fact you did not learn from Sam Sir.
    No sane sober sound scholar of the Scriptures believe that ” that this prophecy was fulfilled for the first time on June 6, 1967, when the Jews recaptured the Old City of Jerusalem, thus terminating its “treading down” by the Gentiles.” OK?

    The times of the “Gentiles is not yet over” OK?

    And I must say that CF BAKER is being quite logical when he opines “If this city is trodden down until a certain time, there must of necessity come a time following that when the city will not be trodden down . . . If this Scripture teaches anything, it teaches that the earthly Jerusalem is to be restored.”

    The event which follows the fulfillment of “the Times of the Gentiles” is BOTH the restoration of Jewish sovereignty over the city of Jerusalem, AND the Return of Christ (Luke 21:25-28). This is clearly taught in all the Scriptures that teaches the Millennial reign of Christ.

    The Times of the Gentiles has not YET come to its end. It will occur ONLY AT CHRISTS SECOND COMING. At the time of his coming Jesus Dacid’s greatest Son and the descendant of Abraham called the SEED will restore Jewish sovereignty over the city of Jerusalem Jewish as taught in several OT scriptures. Ah lie? If you doubt me go ask your mentor and professor Sam.

  9. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    DEEPER MEANING OF ISRAEL AND CANAAN
    The question could be asked: Why then do the Old Testament prophets speak so plainly of a national restoration of Israel to its land,
    BECAUSE THERE WILL BE A NATIONAL RESTORATION OF ISRAEL TO ITS LAND

    when the ultimate fulfillment of these prophecies is the inheritance of the new earth by the believers of all the ages?

    GIVE THE SCRIPTURE REFERENCES THAT STATE THIS PRECLUDES THE NATIONAL RESTORATION OF ISREAL TO ITS LAND.

    HOW BIG IS THE LAND MASS OF ISRAEL?
    HOW DOES ISRAEL’S RESTORATION TO THEIR LAND IN ANY WAY PREVENT the ultimate fulfillment of these prophecies OF the inheritance of the new earth by the believers of all the ages?

    BECAUSE YOU AND SAM AND THE SDA’S SAY SO SIR?

    The answer is to be found in the fact that the Old Testament prophets are to be taken literally too! aH LIE? wAKE UP sAM AND ASK HE MAN?

    rE For the prophets the term Israel signified the people of God and the land of Canaan represented the promised blessings of peace and prosperity.
    Because of these deeper meanings, these terms could serve to express the hope for the ultimate realization of God’s blessings for His people.

    THESE TERMS COULD JUST AS EASILY MEAN JUST WHAT THEY SAID THE HOPE OR PROMISE FOR THE ULTIMATE REALIZATION OF GOD’S BLESSINGS THE JEWS LITERALLY aH LIE?

    rE the “prophetic perspective” enabled the prophets to see the final divine visitation and restoration through the transparency of imminent historical events.

    In the same way the final gathering of ISREAL (Is 11:11; 49:6) is described by the prophets in terms of the regathering of the remnant of Israel to its land. NOTE THAT ISAIAH PROPHESISED TO ISRAEL PRIMARILY.

    THE PROMISES TO THE cHURCH ARE CLEARLY GIVEN IN THE NT

    It is very clear that the Old Testament prophecies regarding the restoration of Israel lead us to conclude that these prophecies were not fully realized in Old Testament times, and that their fuller realization must be sought, BOTH in a political restoration of the Jews in Palestine, AND in the universal gathering of all believers in the new earth.
    To limit the fulfillment of these prophecies to a political restoration of the Jews in Palestine, whether it be now or during the Millennium, DOES NOT ignore the witness of the New Testament . THE NT AT NO POINT SAYS THAT THE PROMISES MADE TO ISRAEL HAS TO DO WITH the present gathering of believers into the Church and in a future universal gathering of people from all tribes, peoples, and tongues in the new earth.

    To say this is to ignore the clear teaching of Romans 9-11 THAT SAYS GOD IS NOT DONE WITH THE JEW

    THE ONLY FOLK THAT DENY THIS ARE SAM AND THE SDA CHURCH
    Ah lie?


  10. A somewhat cynical but also amusing definition of a specialist in scientific endeavour or indeed the pursuit of any form of knowledge or research, is that he learns more and more about less and less until he ultimately reaches a zenith where he knows everything about nothing.

    GP seems well on the way.

  11. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    Thank you most kindly INkwell , Sir.
    But canst thou add anything of substance to the debate Sir?


  12. The DLP is just not engaging young people on the fiscal crisis it has manufactured because it feels that they do not have any sensible ideas. Instead, it feels that young people are only interested in cell phones, fetes and loud ZR music.

    Exactly what plan does the government has to fight youth unemployment? Absolutely None!!!

    With the economy experiencing a fiscal crisis and still in recession–where is the plan to rescue it?

    The acting Prime Minister now says: “Be patient.” Does that mean a trademark DLP crash programme on jobs is on the way? If so — that sounds like unsustainable political hush money to me.


  13. No, GP, I readily bow to your omniscience.

    I did, however make an observation earlier, before TMB incurred your wrath and caused you to piss on him from a height:

    “I ‘m not much of a biblical scholar, but if every time the Jews displease God by becoming arrogant and overbearing, he punishes them to bring them back in line, I’m wondering if it isn’t time again.

    Maybe it isn’t that end time is here, it may just be that its crying time for the chosen ones again because they haven’t learnt their lesson.

    Who will He use this time…Ahmadinejad?”

    Would you care to comment on that observation?


  14. Imagine!

    Two and a half years after telling young people that it will hit the ground running on their behalf – the DLP is now holding a fete- instead of explaining why it has not kept its promise to the young people of this country

  15. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Mr Inkwell Sir

    Please kindly note that TMB has NOT incurred my wrath NOR AM I pissing on him from a height

    He hasreally caused me great mirth, and I am just giving another view:

    Re
    “I ‘m not much of a biblical scholar, but if every time the Jews displease God by becoming arrogant and overbearing, he punishes them to bring them back in line, I’m wondering if it isn’t time again. Maybe it isn’t that end time is here, it may just be that its crying time for the chosen ones again because they haven’t learnt their lesson. Who will He use this time…Ahmadinejad?”

    Man you got the wrong man for that question, man

    That is a quetion for a judge like Bush Tea or Techie or one of them fellas man.

    Terrence might even wake up his mentor and professor SAM. What do you think? Lol

    Would you care to comment on that observation?

    It seems that a clash with Iran is inevitable soon though.


  16. GP
    I am disappointed that you have chosen not to offer an opinion on the possible situation I suggested. It tells me that I may well be right.

    I have another situation that I can’t get anybody to explain though I put it forward for help in another thread. Perhaps I can induce you to comment on this one… in all seriousness.

    “The Jews have a very serious problem. If Jesus is the son of God and the Jews are God’s chosen people and the Jews don’t believe that Jesus is the son of God, then God help the Jews, for God would be seriously pissed. You see the problem?

    Actually God has a serious problem too. If Jesus is really the son of God and the Jews are really God’s chosen people, and the Jews don’t believe that Jesus is the son of God, what the heck is God to do? You see the problem?

    No wonder we have a SNAFU.”

  17. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Inky man I tell you that the Jews and Iran will soon have a go man.
    The eschatologists consider Iran and Russia to be the Kings of the North as predicted by Ezekiel so it is not IF they will be at war but WHEN! LOL

    re “The Jews have a very serious problem. If Jesus is the son of God and the Jews are God’s chosen people and the Jews don’t believe that Jesus is the son of God, then God help the Jews, for God would be seriously pissed. You see the problem?

    1 Jesus is the Son of God but this is not dependent on the Jews behavior
    2 We know from Matthew’s gospel especially that the Jews rejected Jesus. We know too that the remnant who had returned to Jerusalem in the time of Zerubbabel were whipped by Titus in AD 70 and that since then the Jews were subjected to many attrocities . as a result

    So there is no problem there
    God has always had problems with the Jews since he brought them out of Egypt I once traced this through the OT in a paper entitled God was able to take the Jews out of Egypt but he was unable to remove Egypt from the Jews with respect to the cuisine culture or the calf worship.

    If you read the OT well you will see that the Jews suffered much for this, and that during the time they spent in the land from the time of Joshua to Zedekiah, they enjoyed peace and prosperity only for relatively short periods during the rules of a handful of good kings.

    So they have always suffered for thier idolatry stiff neckness and unbelief. They are still in unbelief today.

    God dont have any more problem than you or I would have with one of our rebellious wayward “one way” children. Onlydifference is that God can deal with it. He has dealt with the Jews and he still dealing with them. It cant be in a land that is constantly under attack and when all the nations hate you and you are surrounded by your enemies, and your friends rerady to abandon you etc.

    What you think.

    There is no problem Inky ma boy. God got these people under control. As he has done in the past he is, or will , or can use other nations to judge or punish them.
    It has been done before.

    But always remember a son is a son, and sons belong in the “fathers house” even if only as hired servants LOL

    The OT scriptures always in putting foward the concept of the day of the Lord i.e the time when God will judge, always states that there is sorrow and sadness before joy., The Great Tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble still lies ahead for the Jews man. It wont be easy/

    Check the OT man. Its all there man. We might be alive to see it all play out. Hope this helps a bit

    But there is no problem Sir God has it under control

    its like when your momma didnt mek no fuss wid you when you was a little boy. She knew you had to come home sometime to go to sleep LOL Then you realized who was really in charge man.


  18. Yes, GP, your last has helped considerably..looks like you might agree with me that He might be using Iran…even if you don’t want to say so…what an irony

    Re: “The Great Tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble still lies ahead for the Jews man. It wont be easy/”

    Do the Jews know this?? It don’t look so. Or do they in fact have a death wish? That may explain a lot of things, the way they keep goading and jucking everybody, goading and jucking the US, goading and jucking the Palestinians, goading and jucking…even God. They bin goading Iran, but if they risk a juck, man, Ahmadinejad gine piss on them from a height..and you know what I mean by that.

  19. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Inkwell

    Glad to be of some help.

    I cant say for sure that he will be using Iran now or next. But as I said eschatologists believe that Iran once Persia and Russia (Gog & Magog) are the Kings of the North of Ezekiel’s predictions. So we know that there will be a conflagration at some time. It might be immediate OR later. Or it might be now AND later

    You ask if the Jews know of the Great Tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble. I cant tell you that. But I can tell you that they ought to know. Remember that these people are still in unbelief, and are probably leaning to their own understanding, as we are all prone to do in our lives from time to time, and not caring about the Word.

    But in the Olivet Discourse Jesus points out what they ought to do at that time. What is very important to appreciate about the Olivet Discourse in Matt 24 that Jesus ratifies Daniel’s prediction about the abomination of desolation when antichrist will break the peace treaty to be set up with Israel, and the section of the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble will occur .

    I don’t think that the Jews fear Ahmadinejad, man. I think that they are in some ways confident about dealing with him. They think we have been able to survive for 62 years against the odds and we will continue to do so. Maybe some believe that God will help them as promised in the OT scriptures , even if they don’t really fully believe them.

    That is why my attitude tends to be just patiently watch and see it all unfold.
    I can comment only on what the scriptures say the end will be. To me that seems to be very very clear


  20. GP, I have to respect your knowledge and the strength of your belief, but I am curious about the enabling role being played by the US. Israel (and the Jews) would not be where they are (I mean having the ability to thumb their noses at the rest of the world and repel Arab attacks), without the backing of the US. The prophesy didn’t say anything about this, did it?

    If for whatever reason the US had to withdraw its support, $3 billion a year and the vetoing of every UN resolution seeking to rein in Israel, where would they be?

  21. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Inky
    The US is not ever named in Bible prophesy, and the USA has no place in Bible prophesy at the end times, as far as eschatologists are concerned However, it seems that the USA has indeed been backing Israel.. It is thought that there are a large number of Jews in the USA with economic and political clout.

    Some folk believe that the so called “super power” USA must be weakened or lose their clout for the events of the eschaton to happen. But this is not indicated in Scripture anyway, even though many folk seem to think so.

    I don’t know if the UN can rein in Israel, but it seems that the USA is set to abandon them. But if you believe the Word God is still in control, and no one can touch them unless or until he allows it. You might not agree with this, but this is what I think.

    I don’t know if you know of the prophesy that they will find oil or if you know that a lot of drilling is going on over there. Some folk now think that if they find oil that this might contribute to the brokering of the false peace treaty at the beginning of the Tribulation. These are some of the speculations. You may find this interesting or maybe not. I wont be dogmatic about this.


  22. GP, as I said , I’m not much of a biblical scholar, but I don’t understand how the US could not be mentioned in the prophesy if the prophesy is to be taken seriously.

    Its like discussing the outcome of the 2010 world cup, but saying that nobody’s ever heard of Brazil. Makes no sense.


  23. This debate and the one on the other blog easily reminds BU of the reason Doughlin broke away from the SDA Church in Barbados and fired up his own Church.

    His view is simple, God is not a vengeful God.

  24. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    You see Inky it does not matter if you understand or not LOL
    After all the USA was just set up by God to do a job. After its time its done. God sets up nations and he takes them down The USA is not in Daniel’s or Ezekiel’s prophesies of the end time (or any other prophesies) because God does not think the USA is as important as you or others think it is, or they think themselves.

    We have to ask who are the kings of the north the kings of the east . the kings of the west the kings of the south etc

    USA is clearly on the way out, man watch and see. They are going the way of all the previous civilizations. Analyze their behavior patterns

    David do you know Elliot at all? I can not see him surviving in many churches of any denomination in Barbados. He is an exceptionally brilliant man – always was. I cant see him being led by the morons that tend to run churches in Bim, regardless to what his view is about God. I don’t necessarily agree with all his Theology, but he is worthy of respect. He is in the top drawer in Medicine too. He has also remained very simple and humble in my view

  25. Ind intonkwell Avatar

    GP,

    Re: “The USA is not in Daniel’s or Ezekiel’s prophesies of the end time (or any other prophesies) because God does not think the USA is as important as you or others think it is, or they think themselves.”

    That argument simply does not wash. How do you assume to know what God thinks. Without the US, Israel surely would have been ground into the desert sand by the Arab hordes opposing its existence. The fighter aircraft, the tanks, the armoured personnel carriers, the attack helicopters, the surface to air missiles, the air to air missiles, the surface to surface missiles, the air to ground missiles, the M16 automatic rifles, the $3 billion a year, which are used to telling effect against the stones thrown by Palestinian youth (and the occasional home made rocket launched by Hamas supporters) were and are critical to its continued existence.

    So don’t tell me it doesn’t matter if I understand. Are you so comfortable in your belief that you are able to rationalize anything? Its easy to say, “God set it up” when there is no evidence to support it. You have been one to quote extensively from the OT to support your positions. Why not now?


  26. GP, I only just read TMB’s submission, quoting from his mentor, professor and friend, the late Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, SDA scholar.

    BTW, I have since 2001, two of Bacchiocchi’s books, given me by an SDA friend, “From Sabbath to Sunday’ and ‘The Sabbath Under Crossfire’ Sam’s penchant for research was amazing, yet, having spent so much time at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, he still fails in his quest in defending the Sabbatarian position of the SDA church, which is aptly summed up in the very last sentence of his 369 page book “From Sabbath to Sunday”

    “We might say, therefore, that Paul REJECTED the Sabbath as a means of salvation but accepted it as a shadow pointing to the substance which belongs to Christ.” emphasis added.

    Ellen G. White, obviously would not agree with Sam, nor Paul!

    However, I would like to address one of the points Terence quoted from Sam, which is used by anti-dispensationalists, to completely misrepresent the position of Dispensationalism.

    “Dispensationalists interpret the Old and New covenants as representing “TWO” different plans of salvation, for two different people – Israel and the church.”

    “In other words , God has not only two different plans of salvation but also two different people.”

    This IS a complete MISREPRESENTATION of the Dispensationlists view.

    I will only tonight, give a bried excert from that scholar par excellence, Professor Charles C. Ryrie, A.B., Haverford College; Th.M. and Th.D; Dallas Theological Seminary; Ph.D., University of Edinburgh., Litt.D., Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary, has written twenty-eight books that have sold more than 1.5 million copies worldwide, in his great work, Dispensationalism, Revised and Expanded.

    Salvation In Dispensationalism.

    “Without doubt the most frequently heard objection against dispensationalism is that it supposedly teaches several ways of salvation. In particular, dispensationalists are said to teach salvation by works in some dispensations and salvation by grace in others. This is a very serious charge and must be examined carefully.” (p.105)

    “The charge that dispensationalism teaches multiple ways of salvation is repeated with the regularity of a dripping faucet.”

    The Reply.

    “The positive teaching of dispensational writers is that salvation IS ALWAYS through God’s grace. Chafer asserted this position clearly:

    “Are there two ways by which one many be saved? In reply to this question it may be stated that salvation of whatever specific character IS ALWAYS the work of God on behalf of man and NEVER a work of man in behalf of God. This is to assert that God NEVER saved any one person or group of persons on any other ground than that righteous freedom to do so which the Cross of Christ secured. There is, therefore, but ONE WAY to be saved and that is by the power of God made possible through the sacrifice of Christ.”

    Ryrie then quotes from another dispensationalist:

    “William Pettingill, another older dispensationalist, also declared clearly:

    ‘Salvation has ALWAYS been, as it now is, purely a gift of God in response to faith. The dispensational tests served to show man’s utter helplessness, in order to bring him to faith, that he might be saved by grace through faith plus NOTHING.” (Ibid., p. 105) emphasis added.

    There is nothing more unscholarly than one supposed scholar, wilfully misrepsenting another scholar’s position.

    Ryrie’s book, is one of, if not the most thoroughly written treatise on Dispensationalism today. He is very gracious to all of his opponents, and as a highly acclaimed theologian, Dr. Ryrie addresses the crucial issue from the perspective of classic dispensationalism. He confronts the views of covenant theology, historical premillennialism, ultradispensationalism, and, in this revised edition, the increasingly popular progressive dispensationalism.

    More tomorrow from this great author and theologian, on this much misunderstood subject.


  27. GP, Elliot Douglin may be a brilliant man in medicine and other areas of its kind, and though he broke away from the mainline SDA church, and started ‘Truth For The Final Generation’ I can assure you, he still, tenaciously holds to, and teaches weekly on Radio, throughout the region, the essence of the false doctrine of Ellen G. White.


  28. GP is correct in saying that the USA is not mentioned in God’s Word, the Bible, in so far as other nations, identified as kings of the North, South and so on are mentioned. There IS a silence re America in the End-Time scenario, and judging from the way America, as a Nation, has turned its back on God, and is crumbling, on the way out, what else can GP say?

    We are warned in God’s Word, NOT to ADD, nor TAKE AWAY from His divine revelation contained therein. This is exactly what GP is doing, not ADDING to, or TAKING AWAY therefrom!


  29. The USA has been the most influential player in world geopolitics since 1941 when it entered WW11. It has almost single handedly been responsible for the emergence of Israel as the world power it now is.

    How can it NOT have have been mentioned or foreseen in any credible set of prophesies covering Jewish geopolitics and the fulfillment of its biblical destiny?

    What am I missing?


  30. @ Inkwell

    What am I missing?
    ***********************
    …you are assuming that because GP and Zoe say so means that it IS so……

    Remember, these two are yet to explain to the Technician why God would have created the Devil (who we all seem to agree is the cause of ALL of the grief that fuels this and other blogs….)

    Wha’ cuhdear, If they cant explain that!
    ….you expect them to know bout the USA?


  31. BT,

    I am just trying to learn. Maybe my questions, if they can’t answer them, will put a little doubt in their minds, a little dent in their certainty and create a little room for consideration of the opinions of others.

    I for one am not convinced that there is such entity as the devil. But what do I know.

  32. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    Ind intonkwell // June 18, 2010 at 10:08 PM
    GP,
    Re: “The USA is not in Daniel’s or Ezekiel’s prophesies of the end time (or any other prophesies) because God does not think the USA is as important as you or others think it is, or they think themselves.”

    I don’t assume to know what God thinks but the USA or the UK or Spain or Portugal or Canada etc are simply not mentioned in ANY OT Scripture concerning the eschaton. Nor is there any veiled suggestion that there are

    Re That argument simply does not wash. How do you assume to know what God thinks. Without the US, Israel surely would have been ground into the desert sand by the Arab hordes opposing its existence. The fighter aircraft, the tanks, the armoured personnel carriers, the attack helicopters, the surface to air missiles, the air to air missiles, the surface to surface missiles, the air to ground missiles, the M16 automatic rifles, the $3 billion a year, which are used to telling effect against the stones thrown by Palestinian youth (and the occasional home made rocket launched by Hamas supporters) were and are critical to its continued existence.

    So what? Read the OT Nations rise and nations fall. God raised up the USA as a super powwr after the last world war and he can and is right before our eyes TAKING THEM DOWN. HE RAISED UP GERMANY AND BRITAIN AND SPAIN IN ITS TIMER EGYPT IN ITS TIME GRRECE PERSIA BABYL)ON IN ITS TIME. Guess what? THEY ALL HAVE BEEN TAKEN DOWN. Ah lie.

    Re So don’t tell me it doesn’t matter if I understand. Why not? Do you or I or anyone have to understand for something to happen according to a Bible prediction? Check out the details in which say the predictions of the first coming were fulfilled. Calculate the probability that it should have been so accurately fulfilled, and then tell me that you understand.

    Re Its easy to say, “God set it up” when there is no evidence to support it. Read the prophesies of Daniel on the Medes and Persians succeeding Babylon to be followed by Greece and then by the Romans and next the Revived Roman Empire and see if you don’t see a trend? Tell me who took out Egypt at the Sea or Reeds and set up Israel I David and Solomon’s time? Who took them down?

    Re You have been one to quote extensively from the OT to support your positions. Why not now? I cant support the position that the USA wont be taken out or that they wont figure in the end times because THEY JUST DON’T APPEAR IN THE OT. Even the most patriotic and partisan American Bible scholars KNOW and TEACH that the USA wont be figuring at the eshaton.

    The OT speaks of Persia (Iran) Gog & Magog (Russia) and the Kings of the East

    Who you think the Kings of the East are man? Cant you see them raising their head? Don’t you know that they hold much of America’s debt. Cant you see that America cant bark at them.

    The OT gives no inkling that USA will feature in the eschaton.
    Just as you think that they cant be put down, so did mighty Babylon, and Assyria and Egypt, and the Medes & Persians, and the Greeks and the Romans and the Brits once boasted that the sun does not set on the British Empire. That is no longer true. Who is the USA Sir? We see them dwindling daily before our eyes. And as a people THEY KNOW IT. I watch them moan and groan about it daily on tv.


  33. DISPENSATIONALISM.

    As Professor Ryrie so correctly says:

    “All writers, of whatever theological persuasion, are sensitive to the antithetical nature of law and grace, and at the same time they all desire to maintain the doctrine of salvation by grace at all times. Both emphases are necessary, for there is an antithesis between the law and grace ( or what do John 1:17, Rom. 6:14, and Gal, 3:23 mean?) and salvation has always been by grace.” (p.111).

    The Display of Grace Under the Law.

    “The second question that needs to be considered is, What grace was there under the law? Do dispensationalists really teach that grace was present during the economy of the Mosaic Law?”

    “In another book, I have pointed out six ways grace was displayed under the Mosaic economy. A brief summary of these will suffice to show that God did manifest grace during that dispensation, and to answer the charge that dispensationalism teach that grace was veiled under the Mosaic economy.”

    1. Grace was displayed by God’s electing of Israel. “This was an act of unmerited favor. It brought with it certain promises that made available to the individual Israelite a multitude of blessings” (Lev. 26: 4-8; deut. 7:14-16).

    2. Grace was displayed in God’s frequent restoration of His sinning people. “The law had not even reached the people before it had been broken, and yet God, because of His grace, did not cast them off. During the conquest of Canaan, in the lives of David and Solomon, and even during the captivities, God’s grace was never absent from His people” (Jer. 31: 20; Hos. 2:19).

    3. The giving of the new covenant, which was announced during the law period, was also a display of grace. “The promise of a new age was given during the time when the law lay broken and trampled beneath the feet of the people who had proved themselves unworthy in every way” (Jer. 31:32).

    4. God displayed His grace under the law by the enablement He gave. “Dispensationalists have often pictured the law as a period when enablement was completely lacking. It is true that there was a sharp contrast between the enabling under the law and the work of the Holy Spirit today (John 14:17), but it is not accurate to say there was no enabling under the law. The Spirit indwelt many (Dan. 4:8; 1 Peter 1:11) and came upon many others for special power (Ex. 28:3; Jugd. 3:10; 1 Sam 10:9-10), but there was no guarantee that He would permanently or universally indwell God’s people as He does today.”

    5. It was during the period of the law that God revealed Himself experientially to His people as Yahweh. “The name is associated with many specific acts of God’s grace toward His people (Ps. 143:11; Jer. 14:21).

    6. The great covenant with David was during the Mosaic economy and its very institution was an act of great grace on God’s part. “The steadfast loving-kindness of God (hesed) is linked with the Abrahamic covenant (Jer. 31:3), with the Mosaic covenant (Ex. 34:6-7), with the new covenant (Jer. 31:3), and with the Davidic covenant (Isa. 55:3). The covenant was not only established on God’s ‘besed’, but David was assured that God’s ‘besed’ would not be thwarted and that the covenant would not be altered (Ps. 89:33-44). A promise like this was one of the most evident displays of God’s grace.”

    “These displays of grace under the law did not lessen the exacting demands of that law. The law did not cease to be law simply because God was gracious during that economy. Neither does this display of grace during that period lessen the proper antithesis between the Mosaic economy and the economy introduced by Christ. The Bible reveals the antithesis and at the same time asserts these displays of grace during the Law dispensation. No system of theology can ignore either emphasis, contradictory as they may seem, even in the interest of theological logic.”

    “With his usual insight Erich Sauer has caught these aspects of law and grace, and particularly grace under law:’

    ‘Therefore even in the Old Testament the prophets and psalmists exult (Ps. 32:11; 33:1; 68:4) over the blessings and lifegiving effects of the Law. For them Law was not only exposure of guilt and a leading on to despair (comp. Rom.7), but “joy of heart” (Ps. 19;8), “delight” (Ps. 119:47; 36:9), “bliss” (Ps. 32:1).

    “Knowledge of sin,” says Paul (Rom. 3:20):
    Of “crowning with grace” speaks David (Ps. 103:4).

    “The letter kills,” says the apostle (11 Cor. 3:6):
    “The law is refreshing [quickening], says the
    psalmist (Ps. 19:8).

    “Miserable man!” is read in the epistle to the
    Romans (rom. 7:24):

    “Blessed is the man,” says the Psalter (Ps. 1:1;
    32:1).
    Of the “curse,” the one-time Pharisee speaks
    (Gal. 3:13); “The Lord bless thee,” says the high
    priest (Num. 6:24).

    The Dispensational Position.

    “This dispensationalist’s answer to the question of the relation of grace and law is this: The basis of salvation in EVERY AGE is the death of Christ; the requirement for salvation in EVERY AGE is FAITH; the object of faith in EVERY AGE is God; the ‘content’ of faith changes in the various dispensations. It is this last point, of course, that distinguishes dispensationalism from covenant theology, but it is not a point to which the charge of teaching two ways of salvation can be attached. It simply recognizes the obvious fact of progressive revelation. When Adam looked upon the coats of skins with which God had clothed him and his wife, he did not see what the believer today sees looking back on the cross of Calvary. And neither did other Old Testament saints see what we can see today.” (Ibid., pp. 111,112, 113,115,). emphasis added.

    The fundamental problem with the SDA, and the late Samuele Bacchiocchi, TMB’s mentor, professor, and friend, IS, that their hermeneutics are seriously flawed, , erroneously so, a deadly admixture of, literal, figurative, allegorical interpretation; they just do NOT understand nor grasp the sound principles of Biblical hermeneutics, contextual analysis, and linguistic exegesis, hence, all this false doctrine re Israel and the church.

    No amount of doctorates, can validate what one writes, rather, it IS what one writes, that VALIDATE ones doctorates.

    Systematic theology, must be established on the sound, proven, basis of the Historic-Grammatical-Literal principle of interpretation, without which, as is clearly seen in Bacchiocchi, Israel is wiped out from the emphatic declarations, throughout the OT re their final regathering back to their ancient homeland, (1948), and strongly re-affirmed by Paul in his letter to the Romans, beyond any question of doubt whatsoever.

    As Kenneth Wuest once said:

    “There is no VICE or DEVICE of sacred hermeneutics, that so beclouds the Scriptures, as those who read Church for Israel, that the church has taken the place of Israel.”

    Wuest is absolutely correct!

  34. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    Inkwell // June 19, 2010 at 10:25 AM
    It is obvious that you do not know and that you are just trying to learn.

    And no your questions wont put doubt in my mind. If I can’t answer your question I will say so. I will agree with you when you are right. I am not here to win an argument at any cost. I w am here to share information, and be amused at those who think they can put doubt in my mind, or a little dent in my certainty or create a little room for consideration of the opinions of others, when they don’t add up LOL

    Inkwell // June 19, 2010 at 7:14 AM
    Re The USA has been the most influential player in world geopolitics since 1941 when it entered WW11. It has almost single handedly been responsible for the emergence of Israel as the world power it now is.

    SO WHAT?
    Read up on the history of the Assyrians Sir. They were the most vicious and cruel people ever seen on earth. They terrorized the then known world, until they were defeated just as predicted in Nahum Have you seen any Assyrians around recently? Don’t think so.

    The Babylonians who took them out were also drinking in their impregnable fortress when the Medes entered their city.

    Read about Petra – another impregnable fortress.

    The Medes and the Persians and the Greeks and even mighty Rome were brought to their knees. This is not fiction. You can read the history.

    SO TELL ME AGAIN? WHO IS THIS mighty player in world geopolitics since 1941, that they cant be dethroned? You see you are leaning to your own understanding and maybe you don’t believe that God rules in the affairs of men.

    You ask “How can it NOT have been mentioned or foreseen in any credible set of prophesies covering Jewish geopolitics and the fulfillment of its biblical destiny?
    What am I missing?”

    You are missing that YOU HAVE NOT READ OR STUDIED THE WORD OF GOD
    Tell me Sir. Great Britain was powerful in world geopolitics for at least 300 years. Is Great Britain mentioned in OT prophesies. Does the OT specifically mention the atrocities that would happen to the Jews at the hands of Germany?

    So why do you think that the MIGHTY MUIKANS MATTER Sir. Their time is coming to end.

    Watch them Sir today in an Ahithopel moment. With all their might they can not get together a plan to stop some oil wiping out their fishing industry in the Gulf! I wonder who has turned their counsel to naught Sir
    “The greatest country in the world ever !“ they say. And they cant protect their borders.

    To answer your audacious question again
    How can it NOT have been mentioned or foreseen in any credible set of prophesies covering Jewish geopolitics and the fulfillment of its biblical destiny?

    Do you not think that the God of heaven knew that a time would come when people fleeing from religious persecution would flee to what is now USA?

    Do you not think that the God of heaven knew that a time would come when these people whom he blessed and raised up (just like he raised up the Jews) would turn his back on Him and that he would have to judge them?

    Who do you thin k is responsible for the aid that goes to Israel from the USA? Is it not very rich and powerful JEWS?
    When the USA turns its back on Israel and as the USA continues to fail and flounder, do the think that the wealthy Jews who controls so much in the USA will hang around this God forsaken place.

    Sir Inky Sir. Do you yet start to see all what you are missing? GOD IS STILL ON THE THRONE WHETHER YOU OR I UNDERSTAND OR NOT. Feel free to disagree with my silly perceptions.


  35. @Bush Tea, Man, you’re a STRANGER to the TRUTH, you are a LIAR!!!

    On two previous threads a while back, I gave a sound Biblical and Scriptural exposition on this same stupid question re the Devil, WHO was NOT created by God, I showed from God’s Word, the Bible, that *HE* created ‘Lucifer’ the morning star, WHO through rebellion and PRIDE, sought to lift himself UP ABOVE his creator, WAS cast down along with one third of the other angelic host, and LUCIFER, then became the Devil.

    You never countered any of my post re this issue, because you CANNOT; yet, every so often, you come here on BU, deceitfully and vindictively making it sound as through I never asnwered the foolish and stupid question, you are a LIAR!

  36. Georgie Porgie Avatar

    Zoe

    I am well aware that Elliott is a SDA in and out. But unlike our resident bar raiser who comes here boasting about whom he knows and his books Elliott is truly exceptionally brilliant, and was highly repected by his peers at HC and at UWI medical school.


  37. GP, Sadly, brilliance in medicine, is NO gateway to understanding Biblical Truth!

    I wrote Douglin a few years ago, and personally delivered it to his beautiful church in St. Thomas; I was given by one of his associates a number of his publications; even saw for myself, Ellen.G. White’s Volumes, right there on Douglin’s book shelf, whom he still quotes regularly on his radio broadcast.

    He is so sincere, but, Oh, so sincerely wrong!

  38. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Zoe

    Man stop reinventing the wheel.man. Dont you think that I know that brilliance in medicine, is NO gateway to understanding Biblical Truth!

    Spend your time in stead putting holes in the nonsense that the raiser of the bar has put on this thread.

    Whatever his theological position Elliott is a brilliant man. And I celebrate that! His being an Adventist does not detract from his brillance and other good characteristics.


  39. Serious Zoe,……… how old are you?
    …surely you are in your teens…. only children behave as immaturely as you do -without someone quickly referring them to the Black Rock institution for tablets.

    Do you think that because you post some long winded nonsense and quote enough scriptures to turn everyone off from reading your rant that you “.. gave a sound Biblical and Scriptural exposition on this same stupid question re the Devil, WHO was NOT created by God,”

    First of all Bush Tea said that you did not explain to TECHNICIAN…. you need not explain to me….I know EXACTLY why God created the devil.

    Secondly, your idiotic response that the devil was NOT created by God does not deserve a comment. You think God is an idiot?

    What!!?? …..he did not know it would turn out so??!!
    He got tricked???
    His grand plan backfired???

    My boy…
    The creation of the devil was CENTRAL to God’s overall plan for life on earth.
    In the same way that he was responsible for the birth of those that he have chosen like John the Baptist, Moses, and even the Bushman, he was fully responsible for the Devil.

    Your arrogance is really much too childish for you to be taken seriously. You seem to think that because you read nuff books you somehow have the right to talk down to others… in fact, those who really KNOW- tend to be the most humble among us….

    ….do you EVER consider the example set by your supposed mentor – Jesus?

    @ Inkwell said….
    “Maybe my questions, if they can’t answer them, will put a little doubt in their minds, a little dent in their certainty and create a little room for consideration of the opinions of others.”
    ***********************************************************************************************
    Good luck Inkwell!!
    ….been tried unsuccessfully many times before, but you may have the trick…..

    Should you succeed, we may actually be able to get some useful interactions – given the sheer volume of their imbibed research…. I suspect that if we could add that knowledge to some basic common sense and genuine humility and respect for others, BU could become a leading Think Tank.


  40. @Doc GP

    Whatever his theological position Elliott is a brilliant man. And I celebrate that! His being an Adventist does not detract from his brillance and other good characteristics.

    If as your quote suggest you believe that Doughlin is a brilliant man the fact that he practices the SDA doctrine must mean he is not that brilliant as far as dividing the word is concerned.

  41. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    David
    I am not dealing with Elliot’s theology Sir. I have said that over and over. His brilliance and his theology are two different things.


  42. Seems like “brilliant” minds have no credence when our resident genii disagree with their interpretation of these ancient scripts.

    What a joke, the creme de la creme of our small island, slugging it out who scores most points over some purported desert tales.

    Rip yourselves apart boys.

    You’ve only had two or three thousand years to get the story right,

    Still you disagree, as you will in 2013, 2033 and 3033.


  43. @ Bush Tea, Yes, I’ll quote my mentor, The Lord Jesus Christ, when He had reason to address people like you:

    “And He said to them. “Go, tell that FOX, (like you BT!) “Behold I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow and the third day…” (Luke 13:32)
    emphasis added.

    Again, hear Jesus speaking to people like you, BT:

    “My word has NO PLACE in you…You are of your father the DEVIL, and the desires of YOUR father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does NOT stand in the truth, because there is NO truth in him. When he speaks a LIE ( just like you BT!) he speaks from his own resources, (just like you BT!) for he is a LIAR (just like you BT!) and the father of it.” (John 8: 37b, 44) emphasis added.

    Go and have another Bush Bath, Bush Man, with your father and his demons, and polish up on your LIES!


  44. @David (BU) & GP, Elliot Douglin, just like Samuele Bacchiocchi, both brilliant , and both of them, spewed forth, and as Douglin continues to, weekly on the Radio, a maze of utter false SDA doctrine mixed in with some Bible truth, DEADLY man!!!

    GP, man, I was NOT reinventing the wheel, no way, nor was I attempting to teach you what you already know, no way, man, its just that I detest when people like Douglin, who have a captive audience like he does, and THEN, with his brilliant mind, over and over again, on many radio stations, terribly MISLEADS large numbers of people with some Biblical truth, LACED with unbiblical, heresy, just like Terence does in quoting from Sam Bacchiocchi.

    You can celebrate his medical brilliance all you like, at the end of the day, God knows how many people he’ll mislead down the path of perdition, with his SDA false doctrine.

  45. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Zoe
    Man get back on point nuh

    Exegete and explain Romans 9-11 or some thing so nuh.

    Advance the discussion nuh

    You dont have to play at every ball, man


  46. @ Zoe
    “Go, tell that FOX, (like you BT!) …”
    ****************************************
    ….you know Mr Zoe, it is always so enlightening and stimulating to discuss these matters with you….
    …you certainly have a way of projecting the image of ‘love and humility’….. must be that business of your ‘being saved…’

    No doubt you are also aware that your ‘mentor’ also said that many shall come in his name, calling him their mentor, and shall deceive many others – to their destruction….

    …but you could never be one of that ‘many’ could you? …cause having learned from your previous life as a catholic, you now have the real truth….

    What I find most amazing about you is the fact that you are able to detail with such vehemence the errors and faults of every other faith like the SDA, the Mormons, Catholics, Anglicans etc etc – and yet you appear to be totally incapable if defending your own personal position without resort to insults and innuendo….this is a clear sign of insecurity….

    …as I said before, this is all forgivable if you are under 18 years of age.


  47. Bush

    I likes talking to you ol’ man but that ain’ gun happen iffen you chose to tek on Christians the way you have been doing these recent days


  48. Brilliance….. only in one area? The BU tag team is hilarious!


  49. @ BAFBFP

    Ha Ha HAH

    Man what you want the Bushman to do!!?? I was watching de football and had some time on hand……
    You been in hiding recently; MME gone underground; Not Saved busy putting licks in his dictionary, and the other bloggers ain’t have no time with a nobody from the bush…..
    …that leaves the trinity….

    but we still cool right…??

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