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“The idea that “God helps those who help themselves” is a Bajan invention.”
……………………
Not so GP… it was the ‘invention’ of Algernon Sydney… Chapter 2, Section 23, Paragraph 2 of “Discourses Concerning Government”.
Can’t have you besmirching the Bajan reputation like that. 🙂
Overnight:
Had to go off to an awards ceremony for my son.
So, I missed the cutoff on the excerpt on faith-points as the core of worldviews. (And this will also answer to the point that we have not been generally taught to apply comparative difficulties across worldviews and their basic beliefs or presuppositions, in our region.)
Here we go again:
>> Perhaps the simplest way to pull [our worldviewish] threads of thought together, is to start with an abstract example, say, claim A. Why should we accept it? Generally, because of B. But, why should we accept B? Thence, C, D, . . . etc. Thus, we face either an infinite regress of challenges, or else we stop at some point, say F — our Faith-Point:
A due to B due to C due to D due to . . . F
At F, we may face the challenge of circularity vs proper basicality: are we simply begging the question, thus inevitably irrational in the end?
In fact, no:
1. Reason embeds faith: We have seen above, that reason and belief — indeed, faith — are inextricably intertwined in our thought lives. In G K Chesterton’s words, “It is idle to talk always of the alternatives reason and faith. Reason is itself a matter of faith.” [cited, Clarke, p. 123.] For, if we must inevitably take some things on trust, we cannot escape exerting faith; i.e. the question is not whether we have faith, but: in what or in whom should we repose our trust?
2. Some beliefs are properly basic: Though of course, our trust in certain things is provisional, we plainly have a perfect right to believe a great many things non-inferentially. (Indeed, this is the largest single bloc of our beliefs — consider for a moment how many sense impressions you had today, and how many of them you for very good reason took as accurate without even an instant’s hesitation.) And, as James pointed out, in contexts where alternatives are forced, momentous and live, we not only have a further right to make a passional decision as to which alternative to accept, but we cannot avoid choosing some option or other.
3. We may compare alternative Worldviews: Worldviews [Weltanschaung in German] are clusters of core beliefs about important things concerning ourselves, the world and ultimate reality. Notoriously, they bristle with difficulties and unresolved challenges. But, if we compare faith-points F1, F2, F3 . . . Fn, relative to (1) factual adequacy, (2) coherence and (3) simplicity/ ad hocness/ simplistic-ness, we can make a rational choice of our faith-points across live options. Thus, we are not reduced to vicious circularity.
4. We may recognise appropriate degrees of warrant: When we assess arguments, we can recognise that there is a gradation in degree of warrant that is possible for given classes of cases, as Simon Greenleaf [a founding father of the modern theory of evidence] has pointed out — as have many others all the way back to Aristotle. So, where logical or mathematical demonstration is possible, we can insist on that. When we come to basic beliefs, we can evaluate whether or not the belief is properly basic — at least on a case by case basis — by comparing the new belief with others that are already credibly deemed so. [For instance, Plantinga has argued that believing in God requires a similar process to that which leads us to believe in other minds.]
This approach can be properly termed, reasonable faith. >>
This approach grounds the challenge we face on finding the best worldview on comparative difficulties across live options.
In particular, I have adverted above to the Hume challenfge that the grounding of morality is a challenge for worldviews, as the world of observed ISES do not properly base an inference to OUGHT.
Extending:
a –> in a materialistic worldview, it is posited that the more or less physical world is the only reality, which leads to the challenge that both mind and morality have no stable ground.
b –> A pantheistic view subsumes the many into the one, and so has no basis for distinction between good and evil.
c –> A polytheistic view [aka paganism, and that is a matter of the basic and uncontroversial dictionary definition of a fairly common term, whoever may pretend that s/he is offended by it] ends up with conflicts of the gods, none being being enough to ground reality as a whole. As a result, the Euthryphro dilemma undermines such a view: is morality arbitrary command or is it independent of the gods, thus making the gods irrelevant morally and dependent on a grounding reality that the system does not address?
d –> On Judaeo-Christian monotheism [theism for short], the morally virtuous Creator-God is the IS who grounds OUGHT in his character. that is the cosmos and especially that aspect where mind enters the picture, has morality built-in, AND morality is reasonable not an arbitrary, capricious imposition. So, it is improper to try to extend the Euthryphro dilemma to such theism.
e –> An excellent summary of this is seen form what Locke called “the judicious [Richard] Hooker” when he cited him to ground the foundation of modern liberty and democracy in Sect 5 of Ch 2 of his 2nd essay on civil gov’t:
[ . . . ]
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant. [Ecclesiastical Polity, 1594+]
[NB: This is directly echoed in the historically pivotal 2nd paragraph of the 1776 US DOI, which asserts that it is self-evidently true that “all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers form the consent of the governed . . . “]
f –> In this context, animism is closely related to theism, as it posits a High God, but considers that men are forced to confront earth and sky bound spirits in daily life. this is why it is a commonplace of missiology that animists so often welcome the gospel, as this re-opens sin-broken communication with the High God. BTW,t his is precisely why the gospel has had such a powerful acceptance int eh Caribbean and in Africa: our ancestors had not gone so far in forgetting God as the Europeans had, and so identified with the God of the bible. Don Richardson has an astonishing case study on the Karen of Burma, who actually had prophecies that missionaries would come with the book that had been lost and forgotten! These and similar groups are now the most strongly Christian groups in the WORLD. That High God of Animism is suspiciously friendly towards and welcoming of a certain YHWH! (NB: Many suspect that paganism arises when the spirits displace the high God in the minds of the public and the priesthood. Resemblance to systematic deception by demons trying to get us to forget God a la Rom 1, is NOT coincidental.)
g –> Consequently, Animism, though inchoate and perhaps not without a point or two of confusion, has the resources available to it to ground Morality, especially once the animist recognises that there is a foundational Creator God and Lord who is interested in us and has re-opened the pathway to right relationship through Jesus.
h –> And of course the Deist is in s similar position to the Animist.
Thus we may see in outline — notice onlookers how the objectors protest ever so loudly when a detailed exposition is either developed or linked — why it is that Judaeo-Christian redemptive theism is a solid ground for morality. We also see why pagan and neopagan altenatives and skeptical evolutionary materialistic — which last, on the testimony of Plato in the Laws Bk X, go back to 400+ BC and men like Alcibiades — alternatives are inherently amoral, thus the pattern of moral disintegration of Rom 1:
Rom 1:19 . . . what can be known about God is plain to [men],42 because God has made it plain to them. 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people43 are without excuse. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts44 were darkened. 1:22 Although they claimed45 to be wise, they became fools 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings46 or birds or four-footed animals47 or reptiles. [whether put up as Egyptian or Babylonian-Syrian-Canaanite Graeco-Roman gods in temples and pantheons, or as purported ancestral life forms in museums makes but little difference . . . ]
1:24 Therefore God gave them over48 in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor49 their bodies among themselves.50 1:25 They51 exchanged the truth of God for a lie52 and worshiped and served the creation53 rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
1:26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones,54 1:27 and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women55 and were inflamed in their passions56 for one another. Men57 committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God,58 God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done.59 1:29 They are filled60 with every kind of unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice. They are rife with61 envy, murder, strife, deceit, hostility. They are gossips, 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, contrivers of all sorts of evil, disobedient to parents, 1:31 senseless, covenant-breakers,62 heartless, ruthless. 1:32 Although they fully know63 God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die,64 they not only do them but also approve of those who practice them.
resemblance ot the trends of our dying civlisation arte NOT coincidental.
How sharp a contrast do we have in the One who died for our sins on a cros, was buried, and rose triumphant with 500+ witnesses and then ascended and poured out he Spirit in power, sot hat millions — including many of our neighbours have met God in the (very Middle Eastern, ROK: we’se be talking the Number One Jew here . . . !) face of Jesus!
Next, let’s see how the Christian faith confronts the sort of futile skeptical intellectualism and pagan religiosity just described, through the key case in Ac 17.
D
PS: For those confused on the logically strictly valid argument from a contingent cosmos to a grounding necessary being, I suggest a read here. [The big problem for militant evolutionary materialists is that our cosmos on the current stance of science had a beginning, and so is contingent. they would like to have an eternal, material proto-cosmos that is material as the implied necessary being, through a multiverse hypothesis, but hen they are in speculative metaphysics on unobserved faith points. And, the God of the Bible is at least as good a candidate for that necessary being, once we apply the correct approach of comparative difficulties. that is part of why censorship is being put to force science into a materialistic mould.]
From Zoe’s writings,
‘You ‘Scoffers’ have NOTHING to offer anyone in despair, may be a ‘rum’ or a fete, go and get a woman…BUT, next morning the SAME depression that plagued you the night before…REMAINS…nothing changes…the same old SIN stained life… filled with MEANINGLESSNESS.
…….
That IS why we PROCLAIM:
“For I AM NOT ashamed of the Gospel of CHRIST, for IT IS the *power* of God to *salvation* for EVERYONE who *believes* for the Jew first and also the Greek” (Gentile)
———————————
EXCUSE ME?
Zoe refers to ‘scoffers’ as having nothing except sin to offer anyone????
Who gives YOU the right to assume anything about anyone else, thus?
You automatically assume that if someone is not a ‘Christian’ then you are sinful!
Not only unfair and unjust, but downright arrogant and honestly, this assertion is rabidly insane.
In the second paragraph, you go one to note that ‘Jews’ first.
Exactly WHY???
We are all of God and of Creation, from the little boy running in a village in India, to the Security Guard standing in the White House, to the teenager playing football on the beach in Brazil, to the Jamaican sing (yes) at a fete in Kingston, to the boy praying next to his father in Qatar.
Full Stop.
No one is greater nor less than another.
So, cut the nonsense.
Completion part in mod pile David, sorry.
GP, I am not attacking you personally here, please understand, but check this.
Yours ‘I always thought that it was a compliment for a believer to be called a fundamentalist! LOL!
A fundamentalist is one who holds tenaciously to the fundamental truths of the Bible’
———————————–
Surely a Fundamentalist is also one who holds strongly to the word of the Quran?
etc…..
Thusly, I have no problem with one staying true to one’s beliefs, indeed one would be weak without that, we must be true to ourselves and our conscience.
However, we must also have respect for others and their beliefs.
Say, we have just as a simple example, another one and a half million fundamentalists as yourself and Zoe.
Your way or the highway. No?
Then, we have one and a half million Fundamentalists following the word of the Quran.
etc….
Is anyone going to be surprised at the result?
Is Fundamentalism per se is something to be celebrated, than surely world destruction is a self-fulfilling prophecy, because really, according to Fundamentalist thinking, Christian Fundamentalists are right, Jewish Fundamentalists are right, Muslim Fundamentalists are right.
Absolutely insane.
As I and others have long expected, we will look for the plumes resulting from this viewpoint.
And our spirits shall move on (regardless of anyone’s objections, assertions or rantings), in their way as intended by Creation and Life, after our physical bodies are blown to bits by Fundamentalism and power play.
Have a great day, I hope to.
Acts 17:
Now, let us see what this looks like on the ground in a real-world case, Athens, AD 50:
____________
>>Ac 17: 16While Paul was waiting . . . in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers [these were the main schools that derived form Socrates, Aristotle and Plato] began to dispute with him. [Sounds familiar?] Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. [sounds in gk like a god of healing and his female consort ] 19Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean.” 21(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)
22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. [that is, eh intellectual leaders of that city,t he fountainhead of our tradition of learning and knowledge as a civilisation, had had to build a monument to their ignorance on THE foundational reality; oh, the irony . .. ]
24″The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28’For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ [The theistic worldview in a nutshell, with overbrimming implications and nuances . . .]
29″Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.” [And this is the core warranting argument of the Christian faith. Onlookers, observe how often the objectors above duck this point. BTW, also, so much for any notion that Paul was trying to smuggle in paganism into the Judaeo-Christian tradition!]
32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered [an attitude that sounds familiar?], but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33At that, Paul left the Council. 34A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus [Athens’ High Court, and he is remembered as the first bishop of Athens. indeed, the road by the Agora and Mars Hill is Holy Aposte Street and as it continues past the Parthenon and Acropolis, it becomes Dionysius the Areopagite street. Athens, over the next several centuries, came to realise that Paul’s opening words blew up the entire pagan-skeptical classic view, and today Marsh hill has the entire speech in a bronze plaque on the hill.], also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others. >>
______________
And so we see gospel-based, anointed prophetic intellectual and cultural leadership in action at a key kairos: the day that decided the onward history of our civilisation.
For,the future did not belong to the uneducated masses who thought the stories of the gods were all equally true. Nor, to the skeptical philosophers who thought them equally false, nor to the politicians who thought them equally useful. but, to the apostle who proclaimed the word of God.
G’day
D
Crusoe:
Re: >> You automatically assume that if someone is not a ‘Christian’ then you are sinful! Not only unfair and unjust, but downright arrogant and honestly, this assertion is rabidly insane. >>
Actually, we OBSERVE that everyone — Christian or not — at best struggles with duty to do the right and to live by the true. So, the real issue is not self-rigteousness, but penitence and pateint persistence int he path of movign, however stumblingly, towards teh truth and the right.
As paul observed in Rom 2:
Rom 2:5 . . . because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality [thus, walk in the way of penitence and virtue, by whatever degree of light they may have . . . ] , he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. [notice the issue is willful rebellion against the general and moral truth that one knows or should know . . . there is no wiggle room here: are we seekign and livign by teh truth and the right, as best we can? or are we seekign excuses to suppress unwelcome truths that point to God and to our moral failings? if the later, we are suppressing truth we know or should know and open ourselves to the just condemnation of God. In our day and region, the truth we know or should know includes the substance of the Ad 55 prime source on a tradition tracing tot he 30s AD [i.e no time for a myth to build up] 1 Cor 15:1 – 11, and the fact of millions who have met God int eh face of Christ through that gospel, and have seen their lives transformed through the released power of the spirit, decisively shaping our civilisation starting with Paul of Tarsus, Cilicia, himself as just highlighted.] 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew [the member of the nation of the Mosaic covenant], then for the Gentile [the member of the nations generally (Gk: Strongs G1672 Ἕλλην Hellen (hel’-layn) n/g. 1. a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas 2. (by extension) a Greek-speaking person3. (especially) a non-Jew, i.e. a Gentile)]; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
(Cf here for a more detailed discussion of this point of confusion and rhetorical polarisation that can easily blind us to the liberating, blessing, transforming truth.)
D
D: No, Zoe’s statement in of itself clearly demonstrated an assumption.
If you have a different view as to your outlook compared to Zoe’s fine.
Weird event
A fundamentalist is trouble from day one. Only a fundamentalist would think it a compliment to be called a fundamentalist.
Fundamentalism is the height of ignorance. It is about intolerance for anything or any one who is even slightly different.
It is a belligerent state of mind, where there can be no peace, because people are inevitably different, but there is one who wants everybody to be like him and tries to force that behaviour on others.
It is about the failure of that person to accept human rights and that everybody has a right to believe or not to believe.
It is about persecuting people for their perceived “opposing” beliefs, i.e. you are either with me or against me. In the extreme it is about genocide, like the story of Moses breaking the tablets and arming those “with him” to kill those “not with him”, set each man against his brother. According to the story, 3000 men died that night. That is not leadership, that is tyranny. Yes, your Moses.
We sit here and abhor dictatorships, scream against the lack of democracy in some countries, fight for human rights, fight stigmatisation and discrimination against poor people, hold strong to the principles of democracy and governance, yet all the while, we have these little hitlers among us, who think that because they saying “god”, they can do anything and treat people how they feel because of some elusive divine right that forms part of their warped imagination.
Personally, I have nothing against christianity. Let me say that I came up in the church and have learned many lessons and much philosophy through christianity… but I am against those who walk around saying that their belief is absolute truth when it is not. Christians are as much struggling for salvation as Muslims or Buddhist or anybody else.
Fundamentalism is a step back not forward and let me say this now. The scholars from the Anglican and Catholic Churches understand where they stand. I have never had the kind of dismissive discourse with them that I have had here on BU. I have dealt with scholars who understand that faith is about an imbalance of probabilities weighing outside their favour and that is why it is a faith.
This does not mean that they will not stand their ground on moral issues, but certainly will not resort to putting down people for their interpretations or differing opinions.
In my books, this makes people like Zoe, GP and Dictionary among the worst kind of believers. These are some very dangerous people among us who prey on people’s fears and who would go to the length of telling lies by making up stories to try to prove a point. I seeing a lot of the unbelievable stories in my inbox daily as people share these stories of comfort; obvious lies.
You see, one of the principles of life in the very bible is, “Ye shall know them by their fruit.” The fruit from the so-called christians in this blog is bitter. No love, no forgiveness and pure tyranny and hellfire.
The best example is GP himself, the biggest of the self professed christians on this blog, who cannot find it in his heart to respond to me. What is that? Let me tell you what it is. It is a hard heart, no forgiveness, intolerance, no love, lack of respect, discrimination and stigamatisation to name a few.
Worst of all, he is the worst kind of example for a christian to follow, because then they find themselves with outright enemies; not speaking to this body, can’t enjoy themselves among non-christians and always have a belligerent guard up.
If this is how christians want to be, I am sure that the Bajan population trying to run away from that type of ignorant behaviour and he is holding himself up as a christian model with this type of behaviour.
No wonder christianity is charged with perpetrating slavery and today, poverty. People who set out to judge others and determine who deserves what. Thing is, they see nothing wrong with it… but that is what makes them fundamentalists. I am sure sorry that I could find a Bajan scholar (science at that) who could be so fundamentalist in thinking and feeling proud of it to boot.
Onlookers (and ROK):
Marking up an unfortunately typical remark by ROK, my corrective notes being on arrow-points:
>>you need the experts because what you have is not on all-fours with the truth.
–> Wrong: I am citing the experts who sum up the state of the art on the evidence. of course i also have said in the public lectures and the course materials I have shared, that no expert is better than this facts and logic and assumptions; which is where I have consistently pointed in calling for assessment on the merits. [Onlookers, observe how studiously ROK and others have ignored and now try to dismiss these materials]
–> What you plainly cannot rebut — but seek to distract our attention from — is that the history of religions School has fallen to the facts of archaeology once the Dead Sea Scrolls were in evidence.
–> And your lame attempt to create the perception that these have not had a transformative effect on scholarship, is itself utterly revealing: yes, many scrolls are fragile. that is why experts work to recover and preserve them,then to photograph and record their contents, publishing them
–> What they show [as empirical data indisputably from AD 70 and before] beyond reasonable doubt is that he messianic Judaism of the Jesus movement based in Galilee is well within the canons of C1 Judaism.
You need to jumble it up and confuse it so that by the time you give the verdict, everybody’s head in confusion.
–> Rubbish. I have first laid the foundation of critical thinking and worldviews analysis, with the particular focus on how we may warrant matters of fact, to what degree of certainty. (e.g. matters of fact based on reports and records and associated circumstantial evidence are only warranted to moral certainty,a nd to demand demonstrative certainty is to fall into hyperskepticism and self-contradiction.)
–> these are unfamiliar because our education system at all levels has a major gap here; but if one is humble enough to simply take the time to work through the basic materials, one will have for free what one cannot easily find in our region’s education systems.
–> in that light, I have laid out the general worldviews level issue in outline,a nd have given pointers on the central warranting argument of the Christian faith, per Ac 17 [AD 50] and 1 Cor 15 [AD 55].
–> i have also addressed the major worldview differences between Egyptian paganism and the Judaeo-Crhistian tradition, which directly means that the one is nor derivative of the other.
–> i have also pointed out the reasons why there is considerable overlap on matters of basic morality and related pragmatics of wisdom: (i) once we recogise our fundamental equality and duty one tot he other of neighbour love, then much of morality follow3s by logical force, and (ii) in teh ancient near east,t here was a region-wide system of wisdom and wise men, so powerful that king Solomon could be acknowledged as a champion wise man by an Arabian Queen, and that a Daniel could be chief of the magi of Babylon in his day.
–> BTW, it is probably a result of Daniel’s lore that he wise men of the nartivity story knew what to do about that star!
You asking the onlooker to judge on merit, but yet you bring your notes.
–> to judge a case on the merits, one must present the case, nuh?
How is that different from mine?
–> let me count the ways:
(1) I presented the framework of crirtical thinking,
(2) ditto for worldviews analysis
(3) ditto for assessing on matters of fact warranted to moral certainty not demonstrative certainty,
(4) i summarised the history of ideas by citing key sources so we know what happened to the ideas of the history of religion school why
(5) i summarised the worldviews differences and key clash on grounding morality
(6) I highlighted the significance of the power confrontation in Egypt between the prophets and the magicians, and the nature of the 10 plagues as defeats of the demons standing behind the Egyptian gods,up to and including Pharaoh
(7) i gave pragmatic counsel on dealing with the possible demonic taint from playing footsie with such pagan gods
(8) I discussed the core warranting argument for the Christian faith, which makes all such appeals moot: Jesus the crucified [suffereed under Pilate in C 30 Ad in Jerusalem] rose from the dead with 500+ eyewitnesses and has poured out his Spirit in power, transforming millions down to today all around us.
(9) and more . ..
If you have absolute truth, why are you asking people to judge on merit?
–> truth exists, as to deny it ends in the absurdity of saying it is true that truth does not exist
–> but as finite fallible fallen and struggling sinners we have challenges in accessing the truth, so we seek knowledge: well-warranted, credibly true beliefs that are accurate to reality as much as we can obtain.
There can be no judgment when it comes to truth.
–> rubbish: we must judge warrant if we are to confidently know the truth.
Anybody who has truth does not engage in lengthy discussions to prove the truth
–> rubbish, ask any serious academic, scientist, historian, doctor, etc Why do you think we have large academic libraries and the sort of careful step by step arguments laid out in their contents?
and at the back of it have so much trouble establishing that they have even one shred of truth
–> slanderous strawman.
–> the first truth of all is easy to establish: error exists. to try to deny ends in the absurdity of instantiating an error.
–> So we know that knowable, warranted, credible truth exists, but that we may be mistaken over it.
–> So our task is to seek it, testing and assessing the results, step by painful step.
–> And, on matters of fact, the degree of warrant that our finitude, fallibility and fallenness lock us down to is moral certainty at most and often simply the preponderance of evidence.
–> We have access to more than enough truth to see what we know and should know regarding Jesus and the gospel to moral certainty, so we are morally accountable over it as Rom 2 discusses, cf,. above.
–. but, precisely as 2 peter 3 as masterfully expounded by GP above shows, in these last days, scoffers will come, using hyperskeptical rhetoric to dismiss the credible and well warranted but inconvenient truth that points to our accountability under God and the redemption provided though Jesus, the crucified, risen witnessed messiah.
–> in this, such skeptics are willfully ignorant and morally accountable, notonly for their own souls but for the souls of those they mislead
–> but too often we do not see even an ounce of concern, just a brazen intent to dismiss what hey cannot address cogently on the merits.>>
Onlookers: let us wake up to our intellectual and moral duties before it is too late.
D
@Crusoe
Believe it or not. One of the things we have to fight against on behalf of poor people are these christian-minded people of high morality who call themselves civil servants. Many a poor person starve or are deprived of shelter because of them. They go out and make judgments about the people that they should be assisting.
I could tell you some stories that would blow your mind, not only in the welfare department, you find them everywhere in government and inevitably they are at the gate; the gate keepers. For example, a person that does not conform to christian-minded behaviour will be penalised by them taking long to process, skipping out on appointments, calling in sick at critical times, etc. They can do the dog on you.
I keep telling them that when they do these things they make people like me look like martyrs and we are not. All we did was insist that people’s rights be respected and that civil servants do not use the machinery of Government to penalise the very people they should be helping.
And they are so wicked when they try to start to cover their a**es. Tell the most lies and twist the truth to suit themselves. They have this way of casting doubt and leaving it there so that their culpability could not be disciplined.
So when you see me come in here and try to deal with the GPs and the Zoes, it is because this is the kind of behaviour that will send us back into under-development.
We can least afford it; at least from where I am sitting. If we do not get rid of this thinking we will never be able to eradicate poverty; and you know what, even our university graduates will find themselves in poverty due to discrimination and stigmatisation; a judgment by one person as to who deserves or don’t deserve.
PS: Correctives for ROK et al on that ever so convenient thought-stopping smear word “fundamentalist.” Any time a skeptic like ROK has to resort to stereotyping and name-calling dismissal rhetoric, s/he has plainly lost on the merits. [A reasonably balanced overview can be seen here. The contrast in tone to ROK’s polarising and uncivil rhetoric above should be plain. ROK — as the selective hyperskepticism note</a. that has been so often linked analyses — is moving on to the trifecta fallacy: red herrings to distract and mislead form the path of truth, carried away from t
he track of truth to strawmen soaked in personal attacks and slanders, and ignited to cloud, confuse polarise and poison the atmosphere. For shame!]
@ Dictionary
Man Xiang Ping tell me dat you is Bat Funk…! Now listen, effen dat is true you ain’ got nah business wid dis talk…!
Onlookers:
Oops on a messed up link.
For those wanting Critical/straight thinking 101: here. [An easily downloadable, small PDF.]
For the Philosophy toolkit: here. [You can save off the HTML page.]
On selective hyperskepticism: here. [You can save this too.]
Please petition your friendly local CXC and Ministry of education to expose our children to such basics of straight thinking in the C21 world.
Our future depends on it!
D
PS: I strongly recommend Yamauchi and Craig on the key warranting argument of the Christian faith. Notice Craig’s explicit use of inference to best explanation in the context of warranting historical explanation and knowledge.
@Dictionary
I am keeping it simple. I am not going into no scholarly exercise with you about concepts because you are using it to confuse. I have no such desire.
I believe that if you keep it simple, everybody will understand, but that is not what you want, right? You want to win an argument even though the argument cannot be won. So you seeking to move the goal posts.
I asked you some simple questions for which you do not have simple answers… and so to answer my question you want to go into acceptance base on merit to decide whether or not to accept and feel that what you accept is so logical as to be the truth.
I am not going down that road. The reasons for your acceptance or non-acceptance is not an issue. The fact that you have to go there means you do not have truth but believe you may have truth. There is a difference.
If I choose to define my terms differently and come out with a different answer, you would like to tell me that I am wrong… but I will tell you that you have no monopoly on terms. The same way you are free to determine your parameters, I am free to determine mine.
The basis for my position is that you have a bible for which there is no collaborating evidence and therefore the probability that anything in it ever happened is based on the probability that people of that day who observed these things would not have made a record of them but they did make records of other things; everything else but that. What is the probability that not one thing in the bible was recorded by other sources?
Purely on the basis on the lack of proof it puts the bible into the realm of low probability that anything in it ever happened and that these are mere stories.
Then, when you look at the fact that African societies existed before the bible and that a lot of the bible stories are embedded in the walls of the pyramids with the original characters, even more doubt is cast.
Come back now to the Council of Nicea and see that the motive for adopting christianity was to maintain control of an empire (world power). By the time you reach here, you realise that christianity was used as a pragmatic rallying point to consolidate economic and political power. Now, the same is being tried by Muslims; using a religious base to consolidate political and economic power.
Meanwhile you have ordinary people out there killing one another so that a few elites could maintain power. Today, christianity is putting up a fight as the Muslims advance. So this is a case of muslim fundamentalist against christian ones.
I hope that the above helps you to better understand the wisdom behind this statement: “Ye shall know them by their fruit.” In terms of christianity and muslims, those religions do not serve spiritual ends, it is all about material and control of material.
a coin toss is a great way to decide between two options
If its Heads: god exists
If its Tails: god does not exist
Heads or Tails
ROK
First, kindly cease and desist on slander:
I am not going into no scholarly exercise with you about concepts because you are using it to confuse.
All it proves is that [1} you cannot address the matter on the merits, and (2) you wish to poison the atmosphere through uncivil behaviour.
As to simplicity, the presentations start with what I know by having used it down to 4th formers, is a simple intro to critical thinking. I then build from there o college standard, but hat is the level of the issues in this thread that you have raised.
And if you are advocating such a level of matter in public, you should be able to handle such. Otherwise you are simply indulging in the sort of ill-educated fact wrenching that Peter warned about in 2 Peter 3.
Now on your further rhetorical claims [and onlookers note how he is amply fulfilling what Peter warned about scoffers]:
______________
>>The basis for my position is that you have a bible for which there is no collaborating evidence
–> A grand, brazenly confident assertion of ignorance and error. The Bible is abundantly corroborated on comparative history of classical times and on archaeology. Go get some decent books and simply READ.
and therefore the probability that anything in it ever happened is based on the probability that people of that day who observed these things would not have made a record of them but they did make records of other things;
–> Rubbish: the Bible is in major respects — both OT and NT — historical record, and abundantly confirmed as good record too.
–> I suggest you start from an examination of Lk-Ac, and compare say Evans’ 2004 Benthal public lecture here, as already linked but ignored.
–> you are indulging a grand exercise in selective hyperskepticism and will not address the underlying problems of such error.
everything else but that. What is the probability that not one thing in the bible was recorded by other sources?
–> You arte forst failing to addresws even basic facts the note on selective hyperskepticvism addresses in Section b, which are also sumed up above.
–> Onlookers, let me simply again cite on the historicity of Jesus from external corroborative record, through Paul Barnett’s summary:
On the basis of . . . non-Christian sources [i.e. Tacitus (Annals, on the fire in Rome, AD 64; written ~ AD 115), Rabbi Eliezer (~ 90’s AD; cited J. Klausner, Jesus of Nazareth (London: Collier-Macmillan, 1929), p. 34), Pliny (Letters to Trajan from Bithynia, ~ AD 112), Josephus (Antiquities, ~ 90’s)] it is possible to draw the following conclusions:
1. Jesus Christ was executed (by crucifixion?) in Judaea during the period where Tiberius was Emperor (AD 14 – 37) and Pontius Pilate was Governor (AD 26 – 36). [Tacitus]
2. The movement spread from Judaea to Rome. [Tacitus]
3. Jesus claimed to be God and that he would depart and return. [Eliezer]
4. His followers worshipped him as (a) god. [Pliny]
5. He was called “the Christ.” [Josephus]
6. His followers were called “Christians.” [Tacitus, Pliny]
7. They were numerous in Bithynia and Rome [Tacitus, Pliny]
8. It was a world-wide movement. [Eliezer]
9. His brother was James. [Josephus][Is the New Testament History? (London, Hodder, 1987), pp. 30 – 31.]
–> this is the fallacy of the insistently closed mind in action, folks. Sad.
Purely on the basis on the lack of proof it puts the bible into the realm of low probability that anything in it ever happened and that these are mere stories.
–> Again, all you actually prove is that you are resistant to plain facts that are abundantly documented and easily accessible.
Then, when you look at the fact that African societies existed before the bible
–> Let’s guess, these societies existed before the underlying tablet records of the antediluvian patriarchs that are reproduced in Gen 1 – 11?
and that a lot of the bible stories are embedded in the walls of the pyramids with the original characters,
–> brazen falsehood. pyramid and tomb walls have usually got things from the lives of he pharaohs or the Book of the dead, which have nothing to do with the Bible.
even more doubt is cast.
–> only throu
gh the magic of selective hypersklepticfism linked to unwarranted credulity to skeptic populists
Come back now to the Council of Nicea
–> which met in 325 as the Roman empire had to reluctantly accept that the Christians were here to stay,
and see that the motive for adopting christianity was to maintain control of an empire (world power).
–> Christianity was already well estasblished as a faith with known scriptures for centuries before the Council. For instance the same section B documents how by 95 – 115 AD, 25 of the 27 NT books were already in circulation as scripture.
–> You really must learn that Dan brown and ilk have not a shred of credibility on these matters. Anytime a range of informed opinion from Josh McDowell to Bart Ehrmann agree on something you can take it to the bank! [Have a read here for just starters.]
By the time you reach here, you realise that christianity was used as a pragmatic rallying point to consolidate economic and political power.
–> i have no doubt that politicians did try to co-opt the faith for their purposes, bu that is utterly irrelevant to its foundaitonal truth, which rests ont eh death, burial and resurrection of jesus with 500+ witnesses and a pouring out opf life transforming spiritual power that leads millions to meet and know God in the face of Jesus down to today.
–> these are easily accessible and well warranted truths that educated Caribbean people know ort should know.
–> that you keep dodging off on red herring paths led out to srtrawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems is telling us that you hagve no real couner on the merits you are so eager to distract from.
–> yet another fulfillment of 2 Peter 3 adn Mt 24
Now, the same is being tried by Muslims; using a religious base to consolidate political and economic power.
–> you really have this back ways around don’t you: ISLAM FIRST CAME TO PROMINENCE AS A GLOBAL CONQUEST IDEOLOGICAL STATE UNDER MOHAMMED AND SUCCESSORS. Just read Q 9:5 and 29 to see the point.
–> but as the empire over-extended itself strategically, its expansion halted, and softer more liberal interpretations adapted to the new realities. in this time as the West has receded, the islamists are surging again, by going back to the roots as just outlined.
Meanwhile you have ordinary people out there killing one another so that a few elites could maintain power.
–> this is a description of a small part of islam, w3hich is troubing the world, including other muslims.
Today, christianity is putting up a fight as the Muslims advance.
–> Nope: Christians have always been concerned to bear witess tot he gospel in the whole world.
–> various states, western, hindu, chinese, buddhist etc, even muslim ones too, are having to confront Islamism. [Notice how the recent Christmas bomber was reported by his FATHER.]
–> BTW, it is the moderate Algerians who first came up with the descriptive term “islamofascism.”
–> but you see our shadow show media talking heads and newsies are ever so concerned about the threat of Christianity to their radical secularist amoral evolutionary materialist agendas that they have a fixation on attacking Christianity and Christians, by whatever shadow shows and deceitful, polarising wedge propaganda tactics they can muster.
–> And that is the real reason why we see the pattern of anti-Christian indoctrination above.
–> I forgot, here is the straight or spin grid that gives the ordinary man tools to de spin the media shadow shows.
So this is a case of muslim fundamentalist against christian ones.
–> fallacy of immoral equivalency multiplied by convenient namecalling that shuts down serious checking on facts and fairness >>
_____________
Again, no substance but a lot of polarising and dismissive rhetoric.
ROK is falling afoul of the old saying about how the higher monkey climb the more him expose himself.
Thwang — monkey burger for lunch!
D
@ Micro Mock Engineer // December 29, 2009 at 11:17 PM
“The idea that “God helps those who help themselves” is a Bajan invention.”
……………………
Not so GP… it was the ‘invention’ of Algernon Sydney… Chapter 2, Section 23, Paragraph 2 of “Discourses Concerning Government”.
Can’t have you besmirching the Bajan reputation like that. 🙂
=========================
Thanks for the information MME. At least we agree that “The idea that “God helps those who help themselves” DID NOT ORIGINATE ION THE BIBLE.
Crusoe // December 30, 2009 at 6:04 AM
Re your rant about Zoe quoting Romans 1:16 “For I AM NOT ashamed of the Gospel of CHRIST, for IT IS the *power* of God to *salvation* for EVERYONE who *believes* for the Jew first and also the Greek” (Gentile)
———————————
Whereas much of what you said makes sense, and is indeed true, the facts is that Romans 1:16 is a well known Scripture, I which the Apostle Paul asserts the Biblical truth that salvation was first offered to the Jews. Perusal of the Biblical record will show that this is true.
I don’t think that Zoe was saying that Jews are superior to anyone else. Nor is this what the apostle was saying in Romans 1:16
@ Crusoe
With respect to Christianity, I believe that a fundamentalist a believer that holds tenaciously to the fundamental truths of the Bible. This label was I understand given to believers in the early 1900’s.
Now some denominations differ on observing how they interpret the Bible, but there were certain fundamental truths that were set down as the “fundamentals” just as there are certain truths set down as the “fundamentals” of Microbiology or, Physiology or Physics or Chemistry.
I am quite happy therefore to be labeled according to that definition of fundamentalist. OK
I don’t think that believers who believe the fundamentals of the Biblical Christian faith have anything to do with Muslim Fundamentalists or any other type of fundamentalist. I believe the Bible. I try to live thereby, and like the others I earnestly defend the faith as described in Jude 3. Its as simple as that.
Defense of the faith also involves answering some folk as is clearly taught in 1 Peter 3:15, and it clearly also involves NOT wasting time in answering some folk as instructed in 2 Timothy and Proverbs.
I have studied the Word, and I seek to share what I have gleaned, and proclaim what the Bible says. Persons can take it, or leave it.
And I don’t really worry too much about my physical bodies being blown to bits by Muslim Fundamentalism and power play, because 2 Peter 3 teaches clearly that GOD will destroy the WORLD THAT IS BY FIRE.. Men seem to have the POWER to do so, but they DON’T HAVE THE PERMISSION, according to my understanding of the Word.
I don’t think that Zoe, or Dictionary or I have said at any time on BU “ our way or the highway.” First it is not OUR WAY, we are seeking to follow. We are trying to follow THE WAY THE TRUTH & THE LIFE.
Secondly we have absolutely no control whatsoever over ANYONE, and what way they chose to follow.
We can only share the WAY according to John 14;6, Acts 4:12 and related scriptures.
Re
Worst of all, he is the worst kind of example for a christian to follow, because then they find themselves with outright enemies; not speaking to this body, can’t enjoy themselves among non-christians and always have a belligerent guard up.
The writer of the above does not know GP, or about the many many unbelievers that call my mom’s home to inquire about me. You see I have been good to very many in my time.
It is indeed written in John7:24 JUDGE RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT AND NOT BY THE APPEARANCE i.e One can not ajudicate correctly without a knowledge of all the facts!
To certain folk on this tread trying to denigrate the Ancient Egyptians aka [Kemetians] STOP IT RIGHT NOW! You only know what the plaigurizers and pillagers told you.
Go and ask the Pope if it wasn’t that killer Constantine that brought you Jesus Christ. Can’t tell you to ask your Pastor, Preacher or Canon because they simply don’t know!
How is it that so many people know of this Jesus Christ and walked with him, but yet NO ONE knows what he looked like. No written records kept on A BEING of such WORDLY & SPIRITUAL import! When was he really birthed? Who are you people kidding? Maybe yaselves?
The main reason why Black folk clung to this Jesus Christianity was to identify with their white slavemasters. [Notwithstanding the fact that it was also forced on them.] That’s why they would always sing that damn song “Wash Me And I Shall Be Whiter Than Snow” wash my Blackness away because they were pyschologically paralized into believing that being Black was a curse from God which identified them with Evil. No wonder many of them still cling to it today!
Check the folly of christianity….whereas the Ancients knew that it was your DEEDS that determined your fate in the afterlife…..Christianity teaches you that you can ‘sin’ as much as you like your sins will be forgiven…and that the only way one can get into God’s Kingdom is thru the ‘Grace of Jesus Christ’ and that all your righteousness is nothing but filthy rags. Why the ambiguity and hypocrisy in christianity? Is it your good deeds or the Grace of God…..or is it that your “God’ know that you are so filthy that you are incapable of any deeds good enough to get you into that Kingdom, therefore ‘He’ alone will have mercy on whom ‘He’ will!? And maybe, just maybe some of you frauds just won’t make it!
You would have lived and died in vain. But not to worry, because there’s a phase called RE-INCARNATION that will save your kind. You see, you do get another chance to get it right.
But you’d never get that chance with the ‘god’ of christianity who is reading to condemn you to the lake of fire and just in case you might die in that fire ‘it’ will give you an immortal body so that you will BURN FOREVER & AND EVER & EVER & EVER & EVER & EVER & EVER & EVER& EVER & EVER………………………………………..!
@Tech……Feed the mind boy, feed the mind and don’t let anyone beat you down with a plagurised bible. That Bible replaced 100s of ks of books of knowledge. So don’t let dem fool ya,don’t let dem skool ya, nor even re-arrange ya. Oh no! Spadadadaddadadada!
And enjoy this biting cold! Peace!
“Salvation first came to the ‘jew’! What a load of crap! This imposter ‘jew’ wrote himself into that Bible, stole the Black Man’s land i.e. Canaan i.e Palestine today now Israhell and today every novice that pick up a bible keeps repeating that mantra that the ‘jews’ are God’s chosen people and today they want everyone to give them their power. What a load of bilge! Today this imposter is running the biggest terrorist ring, drug ring, prostitute ring and banking scams in the world. They control hollywood and the media. And all we get are LIES, DAMN LIE! They change their names, their looks, their language so that they can impersonate others and carry out their sick, sick evil deeds. And we are suppose to give them our power. May God help you pathetic christians!
Footnote:
Just for fun on that utter want of archaeological support for the Bible, cf this little presentation, here, till I can co0me back.
(NB: Folks, have fun looking on the roots of he history of religions schools and their modern successors, here.)
Off to the bank etc.
D
PS: Hopi, take a few breaths. No-one is DENIGRATING the ancient Egyptians, but we are insisting that some accuracy and credible warrant on OT and NT origins be maintained, in light of actual evidence not bare assertions of popularisers of skeptical myths and outdated claims of a school of thought that was itself hostile to even the then known findings of archeology, 100 years or so back. The Egyptians were wonderful, with gorgeous art [I love that art, always have!], and many great achievements, but they were out of their depth when they resorted to attempted genocide of Hebrew refugee populations they were oppressing, and then when their gods and magicians had to go up against YHWH!
Mr King Sir?
Why on earth should I answer you, when all I have to do, is just what I have been doing for months………..i.e TURNING THE OTHER CHEEK?
LOL. Now you can continue to crucify me. LOL
@Dictionary………If you say this once you are lying, but repeat that nonsense about AEgyptians trying to kill Hebrews YOU TOO ARE A LIAR! Like I said earlier. this ‘jew’ wrote himself into the bible and hence the pages of history as ‘God’s’ chosen. They were never enslaved in Kemet. They are LIARS! And if you look at their MO today, they are still LIARS! When did they become Hebrews? Please don’t start their history at the bible.
‘They Egyptians were wonderful with gorgeous art.” You need to get to hell outta here with ya baby talk! The Kemetians gave the world civilization. They gave them a God-konsciousness. They gave them Architecture, Engineer, Mathematics, Philosophy, Alchemy…I can go on and on and on! Don’t get me started!
So when you get back from the bank, go back on that shelf and contemplate your bare assertions of popularised skeptical myths, because that’s all you are coming with!
G’day!
H…
Crusoe Dec 30, 09 @6:04AM
“From Zoe’s writings”
“You ‘Scoffers have NOTHING to offer anyone in despair, may be a ‘rum’ or a fete, go and get a woman…BUT, next morning the SAME depression that plagued you the night before…REMAINS…nothing changes…the same old SIN stained life…filled with MEANINGLESSNESS.”
‘This IS why we PROCLAIM:’
“For I AM NOT ashamed of the Gospel of CHRIST, for IT IS the *power* of God to *salvation* for EVERYONE who *believes* for the Jew first and also the Greek” (Gentile).
Crusoe exclaimed:
“EXCUSE ME?”
“Zoe refers to ‘scoffers’ as having nothing but sin to offer anyone????”
“Who give YOU the right to assume anything about anyone else, thus?”
“You automatically assume that if someone is not a ‘Christian’ then you are sinful!”
“Not only unfair and unjust, but downright arrogant and honestly, this assertion is rabidly insane.”
Well, Crusoe, that’s YOUR arrogant, self-righteous, secular humanistic, worldview re what the Word of God states
Let’s hear Him on the matter:
GOD LOVES YOU.
“For God so loved the world…”(ALL OF US) (John 3:16)
“God commendeth His Love…” (Rom 5:8)
“Herein IS LOVE…” (I John 4:10)
“Gave Himself….might deliver us…” (Gal. 1:4)
“Son…IS come to seek…” (Luke 19:10).
THE FACT OF SIN.
” None righteous…” (Rom. 3:10).
“For ALL (everyone) HAVE SINNED and FALL short of the glory of God” ( Rom. 3:23)
Crusoe…YOU are NOT a sinner???!!!
Have your own self-righteousness..uh…!
“NOT a just man…” (Eccles 7:20).
“The heart IS deceitful….wicked…” (Jer. 17: 9,10).
“Our righteousness..is FILTHY rags…” (Isa. 64: 6).
THE PENALTY OF SIN.
“soul that sinneth…it shall DIE…” (Ezek 18: 4, 20).
“SIN…bringeth forth DEATH…” (James 1:15).
“Once to die…then judgment…” (Heb. 9:27).
“Wages (results) of sin IS death…” (Rom. 6:23).
“Dead are judged…” (Rev. 20:12).
MAN INABILITY TO SAVE HIMSELF FROM SIN.
“Not by works (good deeds) of self-righteousness…” (Titus 3:5)
“Not justified by works…” (Gal 2:16).
“faith…not of yourselves…” (Eph. 2: 8,9).
Through deeds (good works) no man be justified…” (Rom. 3:20).
GOD’S REMEDY.
“Christ died FOR US…” (Rom 5:8)
“gift of God is eternal LIFE” (Rom 6:23)
Neither…salvation in any other…(But in Christ) (Acts 4:12)
“Christ died for OUR SINS” ( I Cor. 15:3)
MAN’S RESPONSIBILITY.
“Repent ye therefore…” (Acts 3:19).
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ…” (Acts 16: 31)
“Believe on His Name…” (John 1:12)
“Confess….believe…shall be saved” ( Rom 10: 9,10).
‘Call upon the name of the Lord…” (Rom 10:13)
RESULTS OF SALVATION.
“Not condemned…” (John 3:18)
“Have everlasting life…” (John 3:36).
‘”He IS a new creature…” (II Cor. 5:17)
“The children of God..” (Rom 8:16)
“Heirs of God…” (Rom 8:17).
“Peace I give unto you…neither be afraid…” ( John 14: 27).
“Spirit of God dweel in you…” (Rom 8:9)
“Our names are in the book of life..” (Phil. 4:3)
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE.
“they shall never perish..” (John 10: 27-29).
“Yet shall he live…” (John 11: 25,26).
“is passed from death unto life..” (John 5:24)
“Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor other created thing, shall be able to SEPARATE US from the LOVE of God which IS IN Christ Jesus our LORD” (Rom. 8; 38,39)
“An inheritance INCORRUPTABLE…” (I Pet. 1:4).
Crusoe, we are ALL sinners, those who have humbly acknowledged this FACT, and have repented, receiving Christ Jesus as personal Saviour and Lord, have been forgiven by HIS Grace *ALONE* we don’t deserve His Grace, but He has freely offered it to ALL men, everywhere.
But, it does grant us, through God’s Love, in Christ, a right, as the *adopted* children of God, to say so, because HE declares that for us in, by, and through Jesus Christ.
Yes, we all are children of God, by *creation* BUT, there is a vast difference that fact, and those who *become* children of God, by *adoption* that can ONLY happen, through the ‘New Birth’ from above, being ‘Saved’ ‘Justified’ ‘Born Again’ *spiritually* in Christ.
Yes, I understand that all of this sounds very arrogant to you, BUT, it is not so much arrogance, as IT IS the absolute ASSURANCE that HE has declared in His Word to be so, which we and vast multitudes have PROVED to be in fact so, by yielding our hearts and lives to Him, and have *experienced* the utterly amazing transformation, that He *ALONE* can perform IN our lives.
Salvation first came to the Jews, who as a Nation of people rejected Christ as Messiah. This was God purpose and plan of redemption. Then, offered to the Gentile world.
@GP
“Thanks for the information MME. At least we agree that “The idea that “God helps those who help themselves” DID NOT ORIGINATE ION THE BIBLE.”
And who said it came from the bible? For sure, not me.
HOPI, Which of those old *Demonic* imposters, that masqueraded AS Egyptian *FALSE* gods, are you now playing with…OR more correctly, ARE playing with YOU????
Tell us HOPS, it is “Maat’ goddess of truth, OR could it be “Amun of Thebes, the DEMON god of Egypt, typified by a RAM’S HEAD!!
Then again, it could be the DEMON god, Apis BULL of Ptah at Memphis, for example, OR maybe Ra or Osiris.
Hops, these Demonic gods meekking you grunt…
All of these Satanic imposters, were GIVEN….LICKS…nuf LICKS, by the One and Only True God, ALL over Egypt, the plagues visited upon Pharaoh, LICE, FROGS, etc, etc, man…had them Egyptians BALLING fuh mercy.
That’s what each and EVERY ancient, PAGANISTIC Empire GOT, for messing around with Almighty God, the Only TRUE and LIVING GOD!
BTW, what about the famous “Israel Tablet” of Pharoah Mernepthah at Thebes, mentioning the departure of Israel from Egypt?
Truth IS the ultimate certitude. Even if the whole world goes insane ( a propect with a reasonably high degree of probability) you have a responsibility to yourself to perpetually search for truth.
Gradualism is the brainwasher’s equivalent of Darwinian evolution, EXCEPT, that the evolution is MENTAL rather than physical, (not based on true science)
Reality IS synonymous with TRUTH, and TRUTH is unyielding. One can choose to ignore it, SCORN it, or even curse it, BUT, all to no AVAIL; in the end, TRUTH impassively STANDS its ground in the face of the most evil, overpowering emotional, verbal, and intellectually DISHONEST onslaughts!
@Zoe……….Let’s keep this real damn real..How is REALITY synonymous with TRUTH? Whose truth? Don’t go cutting and pasting on this one pleeze! Use your own BRAIN!
and FYI…… speak not of that which you know [no] absolutely nothing.
The Ancients knew that the ALL manifested itself in ALL of its CREATION that’s why they could have portrayed the ALL even in the form of a BEETLE! But you won’t understand that would you?
You need to KNOW yourself BLACK MAN!
@Hopi
At my work station I have one of your comments stuck behind my head!
I entitled it: To Hell with Tradition and Religion.
I love it! It makes sense!
Excuse me Zoe but dont you worship the blue eyed blonde hair picture of a man in you story books, hanging in your church, in all your pamphlets, literature, on and in your copy of the Bible?
Can you honestly say that you have nothing depicting what Jesus did or did not look like anywhere in your house, place of worship , anywhere?
No man on a cross etc?
Do you have that masterpiece image anywhere around you?
For if this is true, arent you then being a hypocrite?
Seeing that there is NO evidence or records of what he looked like on earth?
@GP…..
Can you explain to me (in layman’s terms) the origin of the cross. I was doing some reading and wanted to hear your clarification on this.
@Dictionary
“PS: Hopi, take a few breaths. No-one is DENIGRATING the ancient Egyptians, but we are insisting that some accuracy and credible warrant on OT and NT origins be maintained…”
What accuracy and credibility? You plagiarise and looking for copyright? The only credit you could have from the bible is the fact that it was carefully crafted to enslave the whole world and just as you stole the religious principles of the Egyptians and their ancestors, so have this christianity been stealing tithes from poor people as if they are entitled to poor people’s labour and money; calling it divine decree.
Well if a thief set it up, it could only be about stealing.
Technician
re @GP…..
Can you explain to me (in layman’s terms) the origin of the cross. I was doing some reading and wanted to hear your clarification on this.
My understanding is that the idea of the cross with which we generally grew up is spurious. The cross, and activity at the cross was quite gory.
The idea of fixing people to a cross was copied by the Roman from folk they had conquered. Note too that when the Psalmist predicted that this is how the Messiah would die, that this form of capital punishment was not even yet in vogue- nor were the Romans.
Basically, the victim to be crucified, bore the crossbar across his shoulders and upper back from the place of judgement to the place of execution, where basically a trunk of a tree of suitable size had been driven into the ground like a stake.
A very good description of the cross including the “seat” or sedulum on the tree stake to aid in the prolongation of the victim’s torture and suffering is given in EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT an other Texts of Apologetics by the ex-atheist Josh McDowell. You can probably get a cheap used copy in a used book shop where you are.
Hope this helps.
I see you on Zoe’s back as usual, but you don’t find icons and “pictures” of Jesus in evangelical churches man.
Believers worship the Jesus described in the Bible not the Jesus depicted in books pamphlets etc man. Because there is indeed NO evidence or records of what he looked like on earth, this does not make a believer a hypocrite man.
These pictures you talk about, and the lovely paintings from medieval times can at best only illustrate a story, as is the case in any book. But no serious evangelical worships an image or a shrine or a piece of wood man Techie? Credit the fella with a little sense man.
The only “crime” the man has committed (and this is not yet a crime in Bim) is to fervently and firmly declare the tenets of Bible truth.
The only “crime” the man has committed (and this is not yet a crime in Bim) is to earnestly contend for the faith with vim and vigor and vitality, man.
@GP
And that is the origin of the cross?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. what a laugh.
@Hopi, “…lets keep this damn real…How is REALITY synonymous with TRUTH. Whose truth? Don’t go cutting and pasting on this one pleeze! Use your own BRAIN!”
Hops, what I’ve been writing, not cutting and pasting, IS reality, what is REALITY?
Go and ASK the MILLIONS of Africans, who were born and BRED into Ancient, Paganistic, Animism, Pantheism, Polytheism, ancestor worship, etc, etc, what they derived from ALL of IT?
Go RIGHT NOW, to Africa, and HEAR them, speaking, REJOICING, PRAISING, the LORD of LORDS, and KING of KINGS, JESUS CHRIST, for setting them FREE from the BONDAGE of this Ancient DEMONIC, pagan LIE!
That IS REALITY!!!
Go to India and see the Hindu’s, ask them WHO HEALED their crippled CHILD, who set them free from all of their PANTHEON of *FALSE* gods, who has GIVEN them PEACE, JOY, and Eternal Life. JESUS CHRIST!!!
That IS REALITY!!!
Go to Haiti, and interview those who have been DELIVERED from the *DEMONS* of Voodoo, IN the NAME of JESUS CHRIST…
That IS REALITY!!!
Go to South America, and see the Catholics and others, who, likewise, are been SET FREE from all kinds of OPPRESSION, spiritual, etc, in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST!
That IS REALITY!!!
I KNOW what I am talking about…I have experienced face to face DEMONIC confrontation with people I KNOW personally…I have cast demons out of people in JESUS name…that wanted and tried to KILL me…and YOU have the GALL…in your IGNORANCE to say to me…
“And FYI…speak not of that which you know (n0) absolutely nothing.”
Listen man/woman, you have NO idea where I have been and what I have EXPERIENCED, I say this to YOU….YOU are FULL of DEMONS…only God knows how many clusters of Demons are resident in your soul and body…your deliverance would be quite an event to witness…”
You ARE in TERRIBLE Demonic deception, that IS also REALITY, on the negative side!!
No GP…..
Cant let you get away with this one on Zoe.
Are you telling me that I will not find a picture of the blue-eyed, blonde hair guy hanging in any Evangelical church?
Are you saying to me that there are NO icons, like the man on the cross in any Evangelical churches?
…’Believers worship the Jesus described in the Bible not the Jesus depicted in books pamphlets etc man. Because there is indeed NO evidence or records of what he looked like on earth, this does not make a believer a hypocrite man.
Then why is there a need to ‘illustrate’ any story when the Bible does not describe what Jesus looked like while he walked this earth? Why not just accept that as it is?
Some of the greatest poems ever written don’t need a picture to illustrate.
So then by your arguments, can I deduct that Evangelicals are the ‘only true’ believers?
See where I am confused ?
…about the cross, this is a part of what I read that I find disturbing.
http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/pagan/origin_of_cross.htm
I am not alone:
@Technician, “Excuse me Zoe but don’t you worship the blue eyed blonde hair picture of a men…(etc, etc) can you honestly say that you have nothing dipicting what Jesus did or did not look like anywhere in your house, place of worship, anywhere!”
I CAN HONESTLY say, categorically, emphatically, that I DO NOT HAVE *any* picture, Icon, or anything else of this nature, ANYWHERE in my dwelling place, of JESUS CHRIST, nor do any places of worship that I attend from time to time, have any such pictures, icons, etc, of JESUS!
As GP has said, we worship the Resurrected, Ascended Lord of Lords, and King of Kings, the Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Eternal, Second Person of the Eternal Godhead, WHO is soon to make His Second Coming, manifestly REAL for ALL to SEE!
Get to KNOW Him, Techi, before it is too late!
@ Zoe…..
Dont take this as disrespect to you, GP or Dictionary but I have been there before.
Accepted Him as Savior, water baptism…the whole nine yards.
Now, in looking back, I realised that I was forced to accept something that I was not ready for. Church going in my house hold was mandatory, Sunday , Monday and Wednesday night.
Bible study was on Saturdays.
I have way too much reservations to say that I believe in what you and others do but I say power to you for your relentless pursuit for salvation.
@Technician
There is a lot more that is disturbing.
Technician
Did you not read stories of David & Goliath, and Noah and the flood etc, did not illustrations help you to get the idea? But you don’t think that that is what David or Goliath, or Noah really looked like. Go look at my ppt on prostate diseases. Don’t the pictures help you grasp the concepts?
I don’t have a need to know what Jesus looks like. I accept and go by what the Bible says. Like the departed Williiam J Massiah I try to speak where the Bible speaks, and am silent where it is silent. That is why I don’t speculate on why God made the devil etc
I am sure that from a teen you didn’t think that Jesus looked like any one in the several depictions of him from here there and everywhere…….since none of them look the same. Why do grown men pick nits like this man?
You can deduce what you like Techie, but I did not say that Evangelicals are the ‘only true’ believers. I said they don’t have icons in their churches. This is mainly an Anglican and RC thing.
I will look at you link in a while, but I have given you a very well written and researched source to read.
Technician
I see nothing to be disturbed about in the article you cite.
In my note above I stated from my understanding of NT Greek and from reading proper texts of apologetics that the true rendering of the Scriptural words stauros and stauro, should be “stake” and “impale” rather than the un-Scriptural “cross” and “crucify” or fix to a cross.
That is why I referred you to Josh McDowells work.
The term cross as the author correctly opines originates not from the Greek NT but from the paganization of the church after 313AD when Constantine the Roman emperor virtually “crucified the church:.
However, God always has a remnant and in the dark ages from 313 to the reformation the true church can historically be traced as existing underground and hunted almost to extinction by the Roman Organization.
You can read about the Lollards, the Petrobrucians, The Waldensians , the Anabaptits and other groups who were hunted down and hated because they taught thier children and women to read etc to read.
The history of the origin of “the cross” as you read is quite correct, and known to serious Biblical scholars (like the author you read).
There is nothing to be disturbed about. True believers know that Jesus was hung on the tree as is reported in many Scriptures……..in the original
I assumed that you were talking about my concept of the “cross” when I wrote my original post. My concept is to be found in the Word and accords with what you read.
It is no secret that the devil used Constantine, the RC church and the merger of church and state to corrupt Christianity, after the persecution of the first three centuries had failed– and duruing the time when the true Church and Christianity was perhaps ay its strongest and purest.
That this was to be expected was clearly predicted by pauil in Acts 20 in his farewell speech to the Ephesian elders.
You are either sidestepping gracefully or missing the point GP.
In one breath you are telling me the pictures are necessary to understand the concept, in the other you say you dont need to know what Christ looks like. Wouldnt this help to further understand the concepts of the Bible?
This is not nit-picking to me GP, it is asking questions on issues that I have trouble accepting from way back that can not seem to be answered. Therfefore if as a child it wasnt answered, stands to reason that as a man, it would still be unanswered.
Sorry but that statement,….”I don’t have a need to know what Jesus looks like. I accept and go by what the Bible says. Like the departed Williiam J Massiah I try to speak where the Bible speaks, and am silent where it is silent. That is why I don’t speculate on why God made the devil etc.’….just rings hollow to me. We have a brain and we are curious, just like you are curious at BioChemistry and search for ways ,means and answers, I too am searching for answers. If you beliefs forbids you from asking these questions or regards them as nit-picking them I am ok with that. I , on the other hand am not bounded by any beliefs which is why I seek the answers to these questions.
The above post is in reply to your previous and was posted before your last.
Wikepedia:
The ankh appears frequently in Egyptian tomb paintings and other art, often at the fingertips of a god or goddess in images that represent the deities of the afterlife conferring the gift of life on the dead person’s mummy; this is thought to symbolize the act of conception. Additionally, an ankh was often carried by Egyptians as an amulet, either alone, or in connection with two other hieroglyphs that mean “strength” and “health” (see explication of Djed and Was, above). Mirrors of beaten metal were also often made in the shape of an ankh, either for decorative reasons or to symbolize a perceived view into another world.
The ankh was almost never drawn in silver; as a sun-symbol, the Egyptians almost invariably crafted important examples of it (for tombs or other purposes) from the metal they most associated with the sun, gold. A similar metal such as copper, burnished to a high sheen, was also sometimes used.
The ankh also appeared frequently in coins from ancient Cyprus. In some cases, especially with the early coinage of King Euelthon of Salamis, the letter ku, from the Cypriot syllabary, appeared within the circle ankh, representing Ku(prion) (Cypriots). To this day, the ankh is also used to represent the planet Venus (the namesake of which, the goddess Venus or Aphrodite, was chiefly worshipped on the island) and the metal Copper (the heavy mining of which gave Cyprus its name).
David P. Silverman notes the striking example of how the depiction of the Ancient Egyptian Ankh was preserved by the Copts in their representation of the Christian cross.
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