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Sargeant
You are of course aware that there is another Ave Maria.
GP
BP requested Ave Maria by Schubert
GP
Andrea Bocelli – Ave Maria
OK So can you give us the signs for the onset of the tribulation period? And are the ‘beast’ and the ‘antichrist” the same persons? (are these persons or institutions)?
imho it’s about self realisation and the powers within yourself… you have both good and bad thoughts in your head.. god is around you communicating through music and other media
Time is the Master
Mr. Bojangles
Footnote:
We now know GP is in FL!
Enjoy the season all!
(And here is my Christmas present to the BU community. A power point — click on the actions tab at the foot of the page — on the minimal facts approach to the resurrection of Christ. Brawta: a freebie library of serious resources!)
D
PS: GP, I am simply saying that it is controversial. And, Apollos strongly fits the profile of one from the School of Paul [which also includes Peter!] learned in the Scriptures and who is intimately familiar with the Hebraic tradition and the Alexandrian peculiar spin on Greek-Hebrew thought patterns. (I just list him as a candidate.)
@David, Thank you sincerely, for being such a fair Moderator of BU, to all and sundry.
May the Lord continue to grant you the courage through BU to allow such a wide diversity of views to be freely expressed, albeit, without profrane invective in the coming New Year.
@GP……”THIS IS ALL RUBBISH! NOT SCIENCE! EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE USING A SCIENTIFIC……”TECHNIQUE USED CURRENTLY IN FORENSICS. But now they use the skull of the victims.”
WE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT CHRIST LOOKED LIKE. HE IS NEVER DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE OR IN LITERATURE ANYWHERE.”
Man you are such a damn hypocrite! when scientific techniques fit into your belief model you ROTFLY[BF]AO. Shame on you Preacher Man. Get up off the the floor Man!
@…….Bonny Peppa. That Preacher Man got it right. I agree with him. Had this Jesus Christ been [real] and here right now he would encourage the same thing. There’s nothing wrong with thiefing from thieves and I hope they thief good too.
And since I don’t celebrate that made-up nonsense, I wish You and Negroman Peace, Love and More Enlightment {Negroman}!
@Sargeant
Re GP
BP requested Ave Maria by Schubert
I know that……….. and thanks for putting up Gunod.
@ Dictionary
PS: GP, I am simply saying that it is controversial. And, Apollos strongly fits the profile of one from the School of Paul [which also includes Peter!] learned in the Scriptures and who is intimately familiar with the Hebraic tradition and the Alexandrian peculiar spin on Greek-Hebrew thought patterns. (I just list him as a candidate.)
I understand what you said, and I know that it is controversial. As you might have noted, I listed Apollos in the “suspects” for the authorship of Hebrews in the section of my Study Guide on Hebrews which was written almost ten years ago while I was finishing my Masters in Religious Education.
My comprehensive response was not so much meant for you- but more so for all those in cyberspace who might be interested in Apologetics and so called Higher Textual Criticism.
I shared this once already this year in a discussion with NS.
@ Zoe
Re @David, Thank you sincerely, for being such a fair Moderator of BU, to all and sundry. May the Lord continue to grant you the courage through BU to allow such a wide diversity of views to be freely expressed, albeit, without profrane invective in the coming New Year.
David must clearly be thanked for giving everyone the chance to opine. He was also be respected for not yielding by strident attempts to control him, by those who are the really offenders concerning the things about which they themselves are guilty.
@ Hopi
For a supposedly well read woman your comments often display a degree of ignorance that borders on the ridiculous
1- It is indeed a fact that WE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT CHRIST LOOKED LIKE. HE IS NEVER DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE OR IN LITERATURE ANYWHERE.”
2- When the SCIENTIFIC TECHNIQUE to which Technician alluded is used today, the SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATORS use the skull of the victims or dental records or other factors and parameters about the person being investigated.
In the rubbish program that Techie obviously watched (and I have watched many of them in the last seven years) aimed at sensationalism, the bovine excrement excretors did not HAVE ANY DATA ABOUT JESUS TO USE!
Moreover, since we also know that Jews come in all hues and physiogomies especially at that time. After the captivities by the Asyrians and the Babylonians the Jews had largely been dispersed, and only about 20 % of them returned with Ezra, Nehemiah and Zerrubabel to populate the country after the exile.
Further more we must consider the physiogomies of the Samaritans, and the “mixed multitude” and others that were adopted in.
As I said before ……”THIS IS ALL RUBBISH! Including your inept ad hominem, which again drives me to the floor where I am ROTFLMAO! LOL!
Walk slowly to your mark………..turn slowly and THINK as you do…….then as you run in note where the stumps are and try very very hard to bowl a better line and length.
Oh BTW Hopi. It had to be rubbish especially if they didnt find that Jesus was BLACK! Right?
@ Anonymous
OK So can you give us the signs for the onset of the tribulation period? And are the ‘beast’ and the ‘antichrist” the same persons? (are these persons or institutions)?
There are some GENERAL SIGNS which though seen throughout the ages that were predicted to escalate, and which have been escalating in the last century.
Verse 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Deceive (c.f Jer 14:14, Jer 23:21, John 5:43 )
Verse 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
NOTE THAT JESIS SAID THAT THESE ARE NOT THE END BUT THAT THEY WILL SIGNAL THE END
Verse 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (c.f Isa 19:2, Mark 13:8, Luke 21:10 )
Verse 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. (BUT NOT THE END YET)
Verse 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. (c.f Acts 4:3, Acts 7:59, 1st Peter 4:12, Rev 2:10 ) THIS HAS BEEN HAPPENING THROUGHOUT THE CHURCH AGE AND CONTINUES AND IS STILL HAPPENING
Verse 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (cf Matt 11:6, Matt 13:57, Matt 26:31, Mark 6:3, Mark 14:27, John 6:61 )
Verse 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. false (cf 2nd Cor 11:13 1st Tim 4:1 ) THIS IS A BIGGIE! AND IS HAPPENING BIG TIME TODAY. Just listen to your radio and tv. If you don’t know the Word you cant spot them.
Verse 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. ( PREDICTED ALSO BY JESUS IN LUKE 18:8 and very evident today in a pathetic apathetic church!)
Verse 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Rom 10:18, Col 1:6, Col 1:23) THIS IS HAPPENING BIG TIME TODAY. This is a good sign!
NOTE THE WORDS “WHEN” & “THEN” as you read this chapter!
Note the THEN in this verse. JESUS points out that when the “gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations” it is THEN that the end shall come.
Verse 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (c,f Dan 9:27, Dan 12:11, Mark 13:14)
JESUS IS SAYING HERE WHEN ANTICHRIST SET HIMSELF UP AS GOD IN THE JEWISH TEMPLE (soon to be rebuilt) YOU KNOW THAT THE TRIBULATION IS HERE.
Verse 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Verse 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Verse 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Verse 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Verse 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Verse 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ( cf Joel 2:2, Dan 12:1, Mark 13:19,)
Verse 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. (cf Isa 65:8, Zech 14:3)
Remember that Jesus was here speaking to four Jews who he knew were familiar with the several OT prophecies about the tribulation (also called the time of Jacob’s trouble inter alia)
Note also why it is important to SEARCH the scriptures so that you can compare scripture with scripture to understand any other scripture.
Verse 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Verse 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (cf 2nd Thess 2:9, Rev 13:13 )
Verse 25 Behold, I have told you before.
Verse 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
NOTE SO FAR THAT AFTER GIVING SOME GENERAL SIGNS THAT HAVE INDEED BEEN ESCALTATING IN THE LAST CENTURY (and not because of better reporting)
TWO BIGGIE SIGNS THAT WE ARE NOTING TODAY ARE
1- an escalating of the TRUE teaching of the Gospel
2- an escalation of FALSE TEACHERS (they were around in the early church c.f i& 2 John, 2 Peter 2, Jude, Acts 20:28 etc) BUT THEY HAVE NOW APROACHED THEIR ZENITH
To be continued if you desire
Please keep going. Trying to take it in. As I investigate, other questions come up so I’m hoping to get a broad overview of “the lay of the land” before zeroing in on details.
I’ll let you (and the world) in on a secret. I have been profoundly disturbed to find out that there are non-Biblical sources that verify the existence of Jesus as well as some of events involving him.
Sister Hopi
It is utterly amazing these so-called highly educated individuals who have doctorates & masters in many specialized areas and who have the greatest command of the “queen’s English” could be so brainwashed & brain dead to believe in the foolishness that is found in the bible.
Brother Scout,I have deep respect for you as a brother and I know you are a christian but I do not subscribe to christian beliefs.I try to stay away from debates on this blog discussing religious matters because of my extreme views on the matter.
Sister Hopi,why waste time discussing religious matters with the “educated clowns” on this blog.The older generation is a hopeless set of Black People who cannot & will not assist in the true liberation of the Black man.The simple reason for that is,many of them are still influence by the stinking European institutions especially the church.It is amazing that the church was used to support slavery and played a very active role in that process and it could now be used to liberate the descendants of slaves.Give me a break.
The Anglican church practised racism where Blacks were not even allowed inside the church building furthermore becoming members and holding critical positions.We have now a bunch of Black asses masquerading as pastors,priests & reverends headed by the biggest fool of the lot Dr John Holder upholding an institution that supported the enslavement of their fore-parents.A total disservice to the memories of our unfortunate fore-parents.
Sister Hopi & brother ROK.all is not lost because we have some brothers & sisters who know better and are not caught up in the madness and are playing their part in cleansing the mine of our children.
Sister Hopi,we must make contact at some time in the near future.When you are in Barbados let me know and I try to make contact with you.
I am sorry you are not here to celebrate Kwanzaa with us.
Bonny Peppa I send my love to you.
Bonny are you blushing ? ha ha
Merry christmas to all christians, especially to Saint GP, Lord of Lords. I am sure you are happy that I am off this thread so you could practice your craft without interruption.
Incidentally, what persecution what? Just gave you a dose of your own medicine and you curl up in a corner until you find others to off-load your persecution on. You can share but not receive.
Hope the holidays are enjoyable in christ. As you would expect, without christ, I am here in misery.
Mr KING
We the believers from the “bat cave” note your sarcasm.
Believers are indeed called saints in the NT, because the word “saint ” in the NT means separated or santified. It signifies that the believers have recieved NOT their own righteousness, but that of Christ– and there ae several scritures that elaborate on that point.
I hope that Zoe can provide an erudite exegesis on that matter, since Im a bit busy.
In your attempt to be sarcastic and berate me, you blaspheme Sir. ONLY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST (whose existence and sojourn on earth you deny) can be ascribed the title of LORD of LORDS.
I am indeed to see you off this thread because we all now cook with gas in Barbados and the developed world, and we no longer need the bovine excrement you produce to burn as fuel for our cooking fires.
You can not contribute anything of substance to a discussion of ESCHATOLOGY, and when Zoe comes with the Greek you can not play at all!
Admit these things and shut up and sit down! And listen and learn quietly as others are doing in Bim and elsewhere.
And you dont interupt me. I DONT ALLOW YOU TO. I USUALLY IGNORE YOU ACCORDING TO THE PRECEPTS OF PROVERBS 26:4
NO I dont ever curl up in a corbner Sir. I might be busy and not worry to post.
And I dont persecute a soul. I jst correct the error of their ways. I stop worrying with you because your ignorance indicates that you are incorrigible.
You will note that in the thread on Biochemistry and Evolution, I responded to everyone else but you! LOL ROTFLMAO!
Today I am a little more charitable. LOL ROTFLMAO!
Hopi I is you frien’ too..!
@GP
“You will note that in the thread on Biochemistry and Evolution, I responded to everyone else but you! LOL ROTFLMAO!”
Yes. In true christian style. I would respond to you though… so I have to wonder what is this christianity you profess that causes you to have such a heavy heart. Well I am not ROTFLMAO at you… but I hope you have a hearty laugh, it’s good for the health.
It would be good if you continue to do as you did in the biochemistry and evolution thread if you want to keep me off this thread. Take your charity to who needs it because you will definitely not like the charity I return to you.
@Anonymous
“have been profoundly disturbed to find out that there are non-Biblical sources that verify the existence of Jesus as well as some of events involving him.”
Bring it. I have been looking for it all my life. Well, including some formidable historians, Egyptologists and theologians for centuries. You out-did all of us. Let’s see and hear it.
@Porgie
Blaspheme? Lord have mercy. Well there was one called Lord of Lords before christ or the bible was ever conceived. Maybe I was referring to him. I like to see you using the words “bovine excrement”. Remember, a fisherman always talks about his trade.
Annonymous
Continuing as per your request
Verse 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Verse 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Verse 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (cf Isa 13:10, Mark 13:25, Luke 21:26 Joel 2:10, Acts 2:20, Rev 6:12 )
Jesus is here corroborating teachings on this matter found elsewhere in both the OT & NT indicating that he is indeed the alpha and the omega and knows the end from the beginning.
NOTE that this passage called the Olivet Discourse is thought to be the key to interpreting prophecy correctly.
It is wisely said that one can not fully understand prophecy without understanding the Olivet Discourse because it is in this passage that Jesus sets the stage by mentioning key OT prophetic passages (principally Daniel and the issue of the abomination of desolation) and also by referring briefly to issues that would later be raised by Paul and John.
Verse 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (cf l Zech 12:12 Dan 7:13, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27)
Note the phrase “ And then” in this verse and “Immediately after the tribulation of those days” in the previous verse.
In other words it is only AFTER “ the tribulation of those days” in verse 29 that Jesus comes in the GLORIOUS APPEARING OR EPHIPHANEA OR HIS REVELATION.
As taught in Acts 1 and several OT Scriptures He will be seen to be coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory . You will note that when he aid this at his trial, before the Crucifixion, that this angered the High Priest and those assembled. Because they knew the OT prophecies, they realized that he was claiming to be God and the Messiah that was to come
Verse 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Matt 13:41 , Matt 25:6, Deut 30:4 Matt 3:12, Matt 13:30, 2nd Thess 2:1)
You might agree that he is now talking about the timing of the onset of the Tribulation still.
Verse 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Verse 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Since it can be shown that the Nation of Israel is often referred to as a fig tree in both the OT & NT, and since the OT teaches that Israel would TWICE BE DISPERSED AND THOUGH BEING NOT A NATION FOR A LONG TIME WOULD BE REGATHERED IN A MOST MIRACULOUS WAY, several expositors, Bible teachers, scholars and students assert confidently that the prediction in verse 32 was fulfilled in 1948, when Israel was again recognized as a nation.
What is confusing and controversial and sensational is the interpretation of the next verse.
Verse 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
How long is a generation? Is it 40 years as the generation in the wilderness? Is it 60 years? (Probably the reason for the concern by some with regard to 2012). Is it 100 years as per the passage about the prediction of the fledgling Israel being subjugated in Egypt?
I personally hope it is number 2; but I hope that he comes sooner than that too.
What is certain is that NO ONE REALLY KNOWS.
Whereas we know that from proper interpretation of the Word, there does not seem to be any prophecies that need fulfillment that would prevent his second coming in glory (remember there are no real specific signs to signal the rapture.). But since many believers (though NOT ALL) think that the rapture will precede the revelation or ephiphanea by 7 years, then such believers think that the rapture MUST be very soon, since there are so many signs to signal the onset of the tribulation.
The events in the Middle East, Russia, China , Japan, The Muslim Axis, The European Community etc, The probable soon finding of oil in Israel, the Economic situation, the Escalation of the New Ecumenical Movement and the moving back to the Rome-ish church, the rapid advancement of knowledge etc etc coupled with the escalation of general and specific signs mentioned above seem to signal the Second Coming. Many of these issues just mentioned are indeed mentioned in the Prophetic scriptures.
I personally find that Jack Van Impe & Hal Lindsey do a great job of relating cirrent events to the relevant Bible prophecies.
Verse 35 says that Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
(Psa 102:26, Isa 51:6, Jer 31:36, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, Heb 1:11) This is either TRUE OR FALSE. WE can each take our pick.
OK GP, you back in true form. Stay that way on the straight and narrow where only ignorance abounds.
To all the rational, science-minded, pragmatic, happy-not-to-be-believers, (GP et al, would read that as pagans and heathens): Let us enjoy this HOLIDAY SEASON where there is no wuk, lots of good food and drink, good times with family and friends and that fleeting feeling of no responsibilities. Relax and enjoy!
Anonymous(2)
You have never heard me call any one a pagan or a heathen. I have, however, been known to describe some postings as bovine excrement.
I hope Sir that you have a safe time what ever you do.
For everyone that is happy not to be a believer, there are believers who are happy to be believers.
It is indeed a fallacy to think that believers dont enjoy themselves.
@ Annnynous
Completion of my superficial treatment of the Olivet Discourse.
Verse 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. ( Zech 14:7, Acts 1:7, 1st Thess 5:2, 2nd Pet 3:10)
This is a difficult verse to divide. since Jesus is God and thereforeomniscient
Verse 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Verse 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Verse 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Gen 6:13, Gen 6:17, Gen 7:21, Luke 17:27, 2nd Pet 3:6 ) These verses do not denounce eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Instead they point out that just as in Noah’s day that men and women were carrying on their lives as usual and did not heed God’s warnings via Noah, that at the second coming men will also be scoffing at the thought of his coming.
Verse 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Verse 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
These two verses indicate that there will be a greivious separation.
Verse 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
(Matt 25:13, Mark 13:33, Luke 21:36, 1st Cor 16:13 )
Verse 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Verse 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Verse 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? (1st Cor 4:2, Heb 3:5 )
Verse 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
The last five verses indicate that there is a need to watch and prepare for the Lord’s return
Verse 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Verse 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Verse 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Verse 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Verse 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The final verses indicate that there are rewards for watching and beeing prepared, and judgement for failing to do so.
Messiah con’td
Ah, well . . .
I suppose it is too much to expect civility and good cheer at Christmas, when not even so veiled contempt is a subtext among skeptics of the core message of Christmas!
(Talk about Grinches trying to steal Christmas . . . )
N, I must take you up on this:
It is utterly amazing these so-called highly educated individuals . . . could be so brainwashed & brain dead to believe in the foolishness that is found in the bible.
This is a contempt-laced, selectively hyperskeptical dismissal without signs of serious consideration of the actual case on the merits. 9I therefore suggest you take time to read and seriously reflect on the two just linked discussions.)
And, also I see where ROK indulges in an astonishing failure to do his homework:
Bring it [Re: Anonymous’ “non-Biblical sources that verify the existence of Jesus as well as some of events involving him.” I have been looking for it all my life. Well, including some formidable historians, Egyptologists and theologians for centuries. You out-did all of us. Let’s see and hear it.
ROK, had you gone as far as what is now Section B of the previously linked online note [not to mention the Benthal 2004 lecture excerpted in the conclusion], you would have seen this, from Paul Barnett, in his 1986 Is the New Testament History?:
On the basis of . . . non-Christian sources [i.e. Tacitus (Annals, on the fire in Rome, AD 64; written ~ AD 115), Rabbi Eliezer (~ 90’s AD; cited J. Klausner, Jesus of Nazareth (London: Collier-Macmillan, 1929), p. 34), Pliny (Letters to Trajan from Bithynia, ~ AD 112), Josephus (Antiquities, ~ 90’s)] it is possible to draw the following conclusions:
1. Jesus Christ was executed (by crucifixion?) in Judaea during the period where Tiberius was Emperor (AD 14 – 37) and Pontius Pilate was Governor (AD 26 – 36). [Tacitus]
2. The movement spread from Judaea to Rome. [Tacitus]
3. Jesus claimed to be God and that he would depart and return. [Eliezer]
4. His followers worshipped him as (a) god. [Pliny]
5. He was called “the Christ.” [Josephus]
6. His followers were called “Christians.” [Tacitus, Pliny]
7. They were numerous in Bithynia and Rome [Tacitus, Pliny]
8. It was a world-wide movement. [Eliezer]
9. His brother was James. [Josephus]
[Is the New Testament History? (London, Hodder, 1987), pp. 30 – 31.]
Josephus is of course a major source on C1 Jewish history [and NB: the above is not based on the Testamentum Flavanium, but in the main on the remarks concerning James]. Tacitus is a well-known Roman historian. Pliny, Governor of Bithynia and well known intellectual and writer, had a correspondence with the Emperor Trajan on what to do with Christians in Bithynia [on the Euxine, which we now know as the Black Sea], as the pagan temples were being abandoned c. 112.
This is besides the point that for instance Luke, author of Luke and Acts, has been abundantly confirmed as a habitually and precisely detailed accurate observer and reporter of events; befitting his profession of physician. [And see, GP has some distinguished antecedents!]
Acts — well confirmed as accurate history down to being a main source on the operations of shipping [through incidental details in Ac 27] — cuts off rather suddenly at 62 AD. That is, it does not track the Neronian post fire of Rome [64 AD] shift in policy to Christians and the deaths of three key protagonists: James [62 AD], Peter [~ 65 AD] and Paul [~ 65 – 67 AD]. So, we may see that its date of initial composition is credibly just about 62 AD. [This fits with the observation that Roman figures are uniformly well reported in it, suggesting that it was based on a defence brief for Paul at his appeal to the court of Nero; perhaps heard before Burris (Nero was a hands off ruler, who would have done well to heed Seneca [younger bro. to the Gallio of Ac 18] and Burris . . . ).]
Luke is the prequel, and so credibly dates to about 60 AD. in turn, it uses Mk as a trusted source, in a context where Lk had access to Judaea 57 – 59 AD (where many of he eyewitnesses would still have been) and so Mk in turn looks like 40’s – 50’s AD. Indeed, the Passion narrative therein casually speaks of “the high Priest” suggesting that this part dates to up to 37 AD.
Beyond that, the Pauline Epistles credibly date ~ 50 – 65 AD.
In short, the NT documents you would dismiss so cavalierly are credible as eyewitness lifetime record of the key events of the founding of the Christian era. Ands simply treating them as we treat the sources listed above would suffice to show that they are good sources.
Indeed, famed Canadian NT scholar Craig Evans observed in his University of Calgary 2004 Benthal public lecture — remember the former Jesus Seminar and their ilk are more noted for effective public relations and sensationalistic TV programmes than for reflecting the true balance on the merits of NT scholarship — as follows:
My purpose tonight is to lay before you what I believe are key facets in the scholarly discussion of the historical Jesus. In my view there are five important areas of investigation and in all five there has been significant progress in recent years. I shall frame these areas as questions. They include (1) the question of the ethnic, religious, and social location of Jesus; (2) the question of the aims and mission of Jesus; (3) the question of Jesus’ self-understanding; (4) the question of Jesus’ death; and (5) the question of Jesus’ resurrection. All of these questions directly bear on the relevance of Jesus for Christian faith and some of them have important implications for Jewish- Christian relations . . . .
The story told in the New Testament Gospels—in contrast to the greatly embellished versions found in the Gospel of Peter and other writings— smacks of verisimilitude. The women went to the tomb to mourn privately and to perform duties fully in step with Jewish burial customs. They expected to find the body of Jesus; ideas of resurrection were the last thing on their minds. The careful attention given the temporary tomb is exactly what we should expect. Pious fiction—like that seen in the Gospel of Peter— would emphasize other things. Archaeology can neither prove nor disprove the resurrection, but it can and has shed important light on the circumstances surrounding Jesus’ death, burial, and missing corpse . . . .
Research in the historical Jesus has taken several positive steps in recent years. Archaeology, remarkable literary discoveries, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and progress in reassessing the social, economic, and political setting of first-century Palestine have been major factors. Notwithstanding the eccentricities and skepticism of the Jesus Seminar, the persistent trend in recent years is to see the Gospels as essentially reliable, especially when properly understood, and to view the historical Jesus in terms much closer to Christianity’s traditional understanding, i.e., as proclaimer of God’s rule, as understanding himself as the Lord’s anointed, and, indeed, as God’s own son, destined to rule Israel. But this does not mean that the historical Jesus that has begun to emerge in recent years is simply a throwback to the traditional portrait. The picture of Jesus that has emerged is more finely nuanced, more obviously Jewish, and in some ways more unpredictable than ever. The last word on the subject has not been written and probably never will be. Ongoing discovery and further investigation will likely force us to make further revisions as we read and read again the old Gospel stories and try to come to grips with the life of this remarkable Galilean Jew.
Perhaps then, a fresh, less tendentious look at the life of Jesus and the beginnings to the church that followed him as messiah is in order at this Christmas time?
Grace to all at Christmas
D
PS: I strongly suggest a read of Strobel’s recent The Case for the Real Jesus; noting that it does not stand on the authority of Mr Strobel, but presents interviews with a cluster of scholars at the top of the game. What you are not going to see on the History or Discovery Channels or the breathless reports of the latest waves of scholarly hyperskeptical speculations on the various so-called news channels or news magazines. [And just which bit of such foolish speculation are they dredging up for this Christmas?]
The internet is amazing at disseminating information.
I went looking for the actual verses of the bible which Handel used and came up with this site.
http://opera.stanford.edu/iu/libretti/messiah.html
Don’t have any excuses now in fulfilling my new year’s resolution to find out more about these verses.
In searching I also came across another site which lists the verses.
Interestingly enough at the bottom of the page it speaks of the message of redemption which before the Bible existed existed in the stars and of which ancient civilisations like the same Egyptians of which ROK spoke, were aware.
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/handelsmes.html
In addition to giving the verses it also gave what its author supposed to be the top ten signs that we are in the last days.
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/toptensigns.html
This site seems to be a collection of essays.
Disclaimer: I am always a bit careful of reading other people’s opinions and do so only if I have a means of cross checking statements either through my own experience or through authorities I have found to be usually correct.
The Resurrection: Hoax or History?
The Resurrection of Christ from the dead, has been the most viciously attacked doctrine of the Christian faith!
Those selectivehyper skeptics, have done this very best to discredit this *historic* fact, but to no avail!
Without the *Resurrection* of Christ, there is no Justification for believers, no imputed Righteousness, no Imparted Sanctification, in short no supernatural indwellng power of the Holy Spirit, to begin the proclamation of the Crucified, and Resurrected Savior, as Peter did in his Holy Spirit Anointed sermon (Acts 2: 1-43) which HAS NEVER ceased from that moment in history, to this PRESENT day, attested to, by:
“So then, AFTER the Lord has spoken to them, He WAS recieved UP into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. AND they went and preached EVERYWHERE, the LORD working with them and *confirming* the word through the acompanying signs.” (Mark 16: 19,20) emphasis added.
The Greek word ‘confirming’ (bebaioo- beb-ah-yah) means, ‘To make firm, establish, secure, corroborate, guarantee.’ The miracles that accompanied the disciples’ preaching confirmed to the people that the messengers were telling the *truth*, that God was backing up their message with supernatural phenomena, and that a new dispensation, the age of grace had entered the world.
Yes, Satan and his false prophets, as Jesus warned would happen, from then up until this day, have being masqurading under the pseudo banner of Christ, with much false preaching, teaching, and counterfiet miracles, etc, which has caused much confusion, not only among unbelievers, but, also within the true Church of Jesus, to them I say…Do NOT through the baby of revelation OUT…with the extravagant bathwater of supersition…!
Logically, you cannot have a FALSE prophet without a GENUINE one…neither a ‘counterfiet miracle without a genuine one…!
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality!
“Moreover brethren, I declared to you the Gospel which I preaced to you, which you also received and in which you STAND.”
“By which also you are *saved* if you hold fast that word which I preached to you – unless you believed in vain.”
“For I delivered to you *first of all* (Gk. In primis, Not to time, BUT to importance) that which I ALSO RECEIVED: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures”
NOTE: Four items given by Paul in explaining “the gospel” which he preached. The four items are presented by four verbs (DIED, ‘apethanen’, was BURIED ‘estaphe’, hath been RAISED, ‘egegertai’, APPEARED, ‘ophthe’ Christ died (Christos apethanen). Historical FACT and crucial event. ‘For our sins’ (huper ton hamartion hemon). Huper means literally OVER, in BEHALF, even instead of (Gal 3:13), where used of persons. But here, much in the sense of ‘peri’ (Gal. 1:14) as is common in Koine. In Peter 3:18 we have ‘peri mamartion, huper adikon. ‘According to the Scriptures (kata tas graphas). As Jesus showed (Luke 22: 37; 24: 25) and as Peter pointed out (Acts 2: 25-27; 3: 35) and as Paul had done (Acts 13: 24f.; 17:3). Cf. Rom 1:12ff. (Word Pictures In The New Testament, Vol IV, pp. 186,187) emphasis added.
“And that He was buried, and that He ROSE again the third day according to the Scriptures.”
NOTE: ‘And that He was buried (kai hoti etaphe) ‘Hoti’ repeated before each of the four verbs as a separate item. Second aorist passive *indicative* of ‘thapto’ old verb, to bury. This item IS an important detail as the gospels show. ‘And that He hath been RAISED (kai hoti egegertai). Perfect passive *indicative*, not ‘egerthe’…There is a reason for this sudden change of tense. Paul wishes to emphasize the *permanence* of the Resurrection of Jesus. HE IS STILL RISEN. ‘On the third day’ (tei hemerai tei tritei). Locative case of TIME. We have it here in Peter’s speech (Acts 10: 40) and Jesus points it out as part of *prophecy* (Luke 24: 46). The other expressions occasionally found “after three days” (Mark 10:34) is merely free vernacular for the same idea and not even Matt. 12: 40 disturbs it. See Luke 24: 1 for record of the empty tomb on the first day of the week (the third day). (Ibid., p.187).
Eyewitnesses:
“And that He WAS SEEN by Cephas (Peter) and by THE TWELVE.”
‘And He first appeared to Cephas (kai hoti ophthe Kephai). First aorist passive *indicative* of the defective verb ‘horao’ to SEE. Paul means not a mere ‘vision’ BUT ACTUAL APPEARANCE. John uses ‘ephanerothe’ (John 21: 14) from ‘phaneroo’, to make MANIFEST, of Christ’s appearance to the SEVEN by the Sea of Galilee. Peter was listed first ( protos) among the Apostles (Matt. 10:2). Jesus had sent a special message to him (Mark. 16: 7) after the resurrection. This special appearance to Peter is made the determining factor in the joyful faith of the disciples (Luke 24: 34), though mentioned incidentially here. Paul had told all these four FACTS to the Corinthians in his preaching. He gives further PROOF of the FACT of Christ’s Resurrection. Nine are in the Gospels (Mary Magdalene in John and Mark, the other women in Matthew, the two going to Emmaus in Luke, Simon Peter in Luke and I Corinthians, the TEN Apostles and others in Luke and John and Mark, the ELEVEN and others in John, the SEVEN by the sea in John, to OVER 500 HUNDRED in Galilee in Matthew and Paul and Mark, to the Apostles in Jerusalem in Luke and Mark and Acts and I Corinthians) and one in I Corinthians above ( to James). What Paul gives IS CONCLUSIVE evidence of the FACT, particularly when reenforced by his own witness (the sixth appearance mentioned by Paul). The way to prove this great fact is to start with Paul’s own witness. The natural way to understand Paul’s adverbs of *time* here is chronological: ‘then’ (eita), ‘then’ (epeita), ‘then’ (epeita), ‘then’ (eita), ‘last of all’
(eschaton panton). ‘To the twelve’ (tois dodeka). (Ibid., pp. 187,188).
“And that He WAS SEEN by OVER *FIVE HUNDRED* brethren at ONCE, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.”
(I Corinthians 15: 1-5)
This incident is the one described in Matt 28: 16, the prearranged metting on the mountain in Galilee. The strength of this witness lies in the fact that the majority (hoi pleious) of them were still LIVING when Paul wrote this Epistle, say spring of A,D. 54 or 55, not over 25 years AFTER the Resurrection of Christ. (Ibid., P. 188) emphasis added.
The Historical Approach.
Concerning this, Wilbur Smith says:
“The meaning of the Resurrection is a theological matter, but, the FACT of the Resurrection is a historical matter, the nature of the resurrection body of Jesus may be a mystery, but the FACT that the body disappeared from the Tomb, is a matter to be decided upon by historical evidence.” (EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT, Historical Evidences For The Christian Faith, Vol I, p. 185).
The Testimony of History and Law.
“When an event takes place in history and there is enough people ALIVE who were EYEWITNESSES of it, or HAD PARTICIPATED in the event,and when the information is published, one is able to verify the validity of an historical event (circumstantial evidence).”
“Ambrose Fleming asserts that there is nothing in the Gospels that would cause a man of science to have problems with the miracles contained therein, and concludes with a challenge to *intellectual* honesty, asserting that if such a ‘…study is pursued with what eminent lawyers have called a ‘willing’ mind, it will engender a deep assurance that the Christian Church IS NOT founded on fictions, or nourished on delusions, or as St. Peter calls them, “cunningly devised fables, ‘but on historical and actual events, which however strange they may be, are INDEED the greatest events which have happened in the history of the world.’ (Ibid., 60/427, 428, p. 190)
Another example may be taken from a letter written by Sir Edward Clark, K.C. to Rev. E.L. Macassey:
“As a lawyer I have made prolonged study of the evidence for the events of Easter Day. To me the evidence is *conclusive*, and over and over again in the High Court, I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. Inference follows on evidence, and a truthful witness is always artless and disdains effect.”
“The Gospel evidence for the *resurrection* is of this class, and as a lawyer I accept it unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to the *facts* they were able to substantitate.” (Ibid., p. 190).
John Singleton Copley, better known as Lord Lyndhurst (1772-1863), recognized as one of the greatest legal minds in British history, when Chancellor Lyndhurst died, a document was found in his desk, among his private papers, giving an extended account of his own Christian faith, he wrote:
“I know pretty well what *evidence* is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the Resurrection HAS NEVER broken down yet. The *Evidence* points unmistakably to the *fact* that on the third day Jesus rose.”
This was the conclusion to which the former Chief Justice of England, Lord Datling came.
“Its its favour as living truth, there exist such *overwhelming* evidence, positive, negative, factual and circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world, could fail to bring in a verdict that the *Resurrection* story is true.” (Ibid., p. 194) emphasis added.
As Dr. Martin Luther King Jr, once said:
‘Facts are stubborn things, and only the stubborn refuse to accept them.”
@GP…….All I can wish you is enlightenment. The highest knowledge is knowledge of self. Please know that Jesus is one of about 12 other crucified saviours. [Ever heard of Heru?] Can’t discuss this one now.
@Negroman…….Stay strong and keep on keeping it real because this struggle will not be in vain. Divine intervention is on our side. To you I say a Rich and Happy Kwanzaa and a prosperous and enlightening future. When I am home I will definitely seek you out…probably around summertime. Peace and Love to you my brother!
@ROK……Peace and Love to you and greater love hath no brother than this..that he take on the fight for his weaker brothers & sisters!
@JC…………Peace and Love and more self-knowledge to you Sis and your family!
@BAFBFP….Wha happen to the ‘d’ man. Seems like I can’t trust you.. You not willing to go all the way with me? Since since I ain’t no atheist, have a happy whateva it is you celebrate! Peace & Love to you and your family!
Anedj Herack Amun Ra!
@ Zoe..
Cant you ever come with your own thoughts?
Though what you say might be true, regurgitating another s words (imho) makes you look gullible. Leave Dicks words to him…please, you sound more credible when you do.
@ Hopi…
Have you read The Mis-Education of the Negro by Carter G Woodson ?
@ GP…
How will we (the average ‘sinner’) know the false prophets from the true ones?
What I cant ‘wrap my mind’ around is the fact that, if God is all powerful and knows all things before they happen, how then can ‘Christians’ say we have a choice?
We have a Master who already knows who will live and who will die, who will repent and who will burn in the fire and brimstone.
Where is the choice in this, if he already knows who and how much?
Can you explain this in laymans terms?
Even a Sir Gary analogy would suffice 😉
Technician
Man you pun Zoe like corns pun policeman boots.
What you want him to do? Claim what he has cited as his own? Then you would say he is dishonest.
Theres nothing wrong with quoting and citing your sources. That is how folk are trained to do in Colleges man.
and he is quoting very well known authors in Theology man. Those are names you see in the bibliographies of many well respected authors and Bible commentators man.
Leave the man a lone nuh. whatever you think of him, as a Bible scholar and expositor—- he is in the top drawer. The man is indeed a heavy roller!
Remember much of our opinion and knowledge is based on what we heard, read or learned from someone else. Not so?
Muse on the SUBSTANCE STRUCTURE & SEQUENCE IN THE MAN’S POST MAN FORGET HIS SOURCES unless you want to read them for yourself. OK?
Come on now Techie. We already have a ROK and a hallall on BU.
@ Technician
You have asked some good questions, and some hard ones too—as usual! LOL
Q How will we (the average ’sinner’) know the false prophets from the true ones?
A- By getting saved and in so doing getting the Holy Spirit as your indwelling Resident Tutor.
Throughout the year, we have pointed out repeatedly that Spiritual things are spiritually discerned as taught in 2 Cor 2:10-14
Jesus promised in the Upper Room Discourse to send the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. But the Holy Spirit can not and does not and will not guide you into truth unless you expose yourself to it.
Do you know that 1 +1 =2? Or any other such simple truth? If you do, it is because you were exposed to it. Having grasped it, you compare Arithmetical truths to basic addition, subtraction et you learned in primary school.
So it is with music or reading.
And since you want a Sir Gary analogy. Well he said that there are only two stokes in cricket- forward defensive and backward defensive, and that all the other strokes are extentions of those two.
If you will distinguish the false prophets from the true ones (and the morons) you must know what the truth looks like and sound like. YOU MUST SEARCH THE SCRIPTURE AND STUDYING IT FOR YOUR SELF! You must do like the believers from Berea described in Acts 17, who searched the scriptures to see if what Paul taught them was true or not.
Don’t believe me or Zoe or Dictionary. Compare what we say with what the scriptures teach.
Q-What I cant ‘wrap my mind’ around is the fact that, if God is all powerful and knows all things before they happen, how then can ‘Christians’ say we have a choice?
With respect to choice.
Your mother brought you up right? And you had a choice with her too, didn’t you? You could obey her—and all would be well, or you could disobey her, and suffer the consequences. Sometimes you disobeyed her and did indeed suffer the consequences. Do you now hate your mother, or consider her loathsome, or doubt her love and care? Do you think that though she is not omniscient, that she did not know that you would often disobey, and that she would have to give you a whipping? Do you think that she would have preferred not to have had to put those licks in your tail?
‘Christians’ can say we have a choice, because the Bible says over and over that we have a choice. And we do. Christians have a duty to say what the Bible says.
And what the Bible does say is that we can choose to obey God, or we can chose not to. No different to dealing with your momma. In fact your momma is a mini god. Her role in you life was to help you to learn to make right choices, and by her actions in love, discipline, care, nurture, advice and counsel, provision mirror the God above so that you could appreciate the nature of God. This Techie is the job of parents. It is a very solemn responsibility. When I discovered that one day while meditating it scared the day lights out of me, as I wondered if I had properly discharged my responsibility to my sons.
.
Q We have a Master who already knows who will live and who will die, who will repent and who will burn in the fire and brimstone. Where is the choice in this, if he already knows who and how much?
A Techie. You have gone into what is called the doctrine of election and predestination. This is not easily understood or explained.
But I will put on verse to you. John 6:37 says All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
This verse which is also one of the planks of the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer points out that the elect EXERCISES THE CORRECT CHOICE ……..they shall come.
The issue here is that the Father knows who will make the right choice and who wont. He knew that Cain would make the wrong choice, but didn’t he offer him a second chance in Genesis 4:7 after he made the wrong choice and them murdered his brother.?
How many times does he offer men several chances to make the right choice brother Techie? And they refuse?
Techie, you know that they got some high brown girls in Bim that will not look at you twice cause they great, but you might still check them out repeatedly BUT YOU KNOW they think they more special than you, and that they don’t want to be seen with you. Maybe you is a lady killer, but I think you know the scenario.
Hope these analogies help.
To my BU fans, friends, fiends & foes have a nice celebration of the fact that Jesus came the first time……..while rembering that since the several specific prophecies concerning his VIRGIN BIRTH VICTORIOUS LIFE VICARIOUS SUFFERINGS AND VINDICATIVE RESURRECTION were ALL PEFECTLY FULFILLED AS FORETOLD………..SO TO WILL THE PRECICTIONS OF HIS VISIBLE RETURN TO RULE AND REIGN WILL ALSO BE FULFILLED.
And for the naysayers at home, Jesus did well say that a prophet is with out honor in his own country.
Let me share with you some comments of those who not only got to read the power point that begun this thread, but they were present when GP was on the go teaching it.
Friends it was like the calypso HOT! HOT! HOT!
I appreciated your teaching about the Second Coming of Christ-I am still reading over your notes- they will be a wonderful help for my study. It is so good that the Lord has given us the hope of Heaven-certainly is a big help when we face difficulties in life- and we all face trials.
We appreciate having you in our fellowship and are thankful that the Lord brought you to our meeting.
Thanks! I enjoyed your presentation and appreciate having the ppt handy.
D
Thanks for the great teaching on the second coming. Excellent!
Thanks for the power point too.
God bless,
L B
So while you guys are bad mouthing me at home, folk up here who ACTUALLY know the Word (Taught at or went to Bible School etc) enjoy my teaching.
God willing I will be teaching through 1 John at this assembly starting the first Sunday in January using my MDiv Thesis as the text!
I sollicit the prayers of the faithful in this regard.
@Hopi
Thanks for your kind words. You are a serious advocate yourself.
@Dictionary
You guys are straining at a knat. You can’t tell me about proof in one breadth and in the next base that truth on a balance of probabilities.
Secondly, the day that there is any kind of proof christianity will no longer be known as a faith or belief, but so long as it continues to be based on faith, not only is there no proof, but no truth either.
One of the most shameful, disgraceful and ignorant things a christian can say is that his “belief” is the “absolute truth” because that is a non-sequitor.
Until you can overcome this fundamental hurdle, it means that you have no proof and you can write, cut and paste and quote until the page can’t hold anymore, it will not change the fact that you cannot believe and tell me that you have the absolute truth.
So you can continue all you will, clutching at straws, but understand that for 2000 years nobody has found the proof and the further it gets away from 1 A.D, the less likely you will ever find any. You and your ilk would be well advised to keep the faith and stop trying to fool people that you have any proof of any absolute truth.
Let us put it this way, even if it was the absolute truth, the fact that you don’t have any proof, makes anyone who claims that the bible is absolute truth is probably the biggest liar in the world.
Bottom line: YOU HAVE NO PROOF THAT IS WHY CHRISTIANITY IS A BELIEF!
IGNORANCE personified started OUT early in the 2009, here on BU, and continues on at the close of the year, exemplified by those whose NAMES are not worthy of mention…they know who they are.
Those of US who *BELIEVE* have experienced the *PROOF* in TRANSFORMED lives, and much, much more, DAILY; exactly as *TESTIFIED* to in century 1, and IT HAS NEVER STOPPED, miraculously continuing ALL over the world to THIS VERY DAY!
That IS *PROOF* positive, belief that IS ABSOLUTELY ASSURED, as is, your *unbelief* which IS also *assured* in Hell, and the LAKE OF FIRE!
Rok its gnat GNAT not knat OK. LOL.
@Anon
Thanks but that was a slip of the finger.
@Zoe
“IGNORANCE personified started OUT early in the 2009, here on BU, and continues on at the close of the year, exemplified by those whose NAMES are not worthy of mention…they know who they are.”
You describe yourself well and not only that, you continue with your ignorance exemplified.
If you experienced the proof, then you should no longer believe, but it means that whatever it is you experience which you chose to call the truth did nothing to change your status from belief.
Please don’t demonstrate any more of your ignorance and obvious misguidance. A junior debater would get you. There is absolutely no sense in what you are saying. However, if you are comfortable with yourself and what you experience, then that is your choice.
Now you have experienced what you believe to be true. I think it is only fair that you stop telling people it is truth and tell them the truth about the matter and that is that you believe; leave out the absolute truth foolishness.
If you continue to be spouting as if you have truth, knowing full well that you don’t, then you would be deceiving those who you are teaching. I think you owe a duty to speak the truth and not try to deceive people into thinking that they have found any truth in the bible or your god.
YOU ARE TRYING TO WIN PEOPLE BY DECEPTION!
@Zoe
“That IS *PROOF* positive, belief that IS ABSOLUTELY ASSURED…”
What absolute nonsense. Did you read that before you hit the submit button? “Belief”, absolutely assured?
The only Hell is the one you believe in and the LAKE OF FIRE is of the same origin… tools of the trade. Trying to frighten people into accepting what you believe. You worse than the Illuminati. What lake of fire what! You think I now come? You are a deceiver.
Zoe
Stay focussed and simply present the “sincere milk” of the Word.
You may be despised on BU, but you have a large following in cyberspace.
Some are asking me now why has that MORON returned? LOL ROFLMAO!
Rok is like the big kid at school who says santa does not exist..
GP and zoe are like little kids in school wroting a secret letter to santa asking for a nintendo wii
ROK:
Kindly read here.
You are having a problem in epistemology [relating to knowledge of he world of experiential fact and us having to decide serious matters in light of the constraints on knowledge of matters of fact], which is triggering incoherences that can cause you no ends of trouble.
Simon Greenleaf — a founding father of the theory of evidence — thought the matter through 150 or so years ago.
His answer still makes sense.
G’nite
D
THE BATTLE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL CONTINUES!!
Happy Holidays @ David and the BU Family.
Special greetings and wishes to GP, Zoe, Dictionary, Hopi, ROK, Pat, Chris BAFBFP,Bimbro and all those who make BU the success it is today.
Without us, this blog would be like the other……*blog*.
Enjoy but be safe in all you do.
Techie
I forgot about BFP since David take down the link to them. LOL
The more I read and think the more amazed I become at the story told in the collection of Bible verses in Handel’s Messiah.
Here are the Old and New Testament verses used by him to tell the story.
http://opera.stanford.edu/iu/libretti/messiah.html
The Old Testament verses are all prohesies of things unseen.
The New Testament verses describe what happened.
The Old Testament prophesies were known to those in power who ultimately put Him to death, but the similarities between prophesy and actuality were completely missed by them.
… and yet when Jesus as a baby was brought to the Temple to be consecrated to God as was the custom for first born males, Simeon and Anna both recognised him for who he was.
http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/24999/eVerseID/24999
Christmas greetings to all and family!
(Monday is good enough to return to issues.)
It is Intolerant to say that Christianity is the only true religion!
Yes, it is intolerant. In fact, it is very intolerant to say that Jesus is the way the truth and the life, and that no one can get to God except through Him, as Jesus Himself said in [John 14:6). It is also intolerant to state that there is NO other name under heaven other than Jesus by which a person can be forgiven of his sins as Peter said in [Acts 4:12). It is intolerant to say that trying to enter into heaven by any other way than Jesus is to be a thief and a robber as Jesus said in [John 10:1). Jesus was intolerant of religious hypocrisy when He condenmed the religious know-it-alls and called them hypocites and deceivers [Matt; 23:25-26). Jesus was extremely intolerant of the buying and selling in the temple when He drove the people out of it by force and overturned the money tables [John 2: 13-16). Jesus was intolerant of hatred when He said “love your enemies” [Luke 6:27). Jesus was intolerant of *IGNORANCE* when He taught the people truth [Matt. 5). Jesus was intolerant of prejudice when He gave the parable of the Good Samaritan [Luke 10: 30-37).
Yes, Christianity is intolerant because its founder, Jesus, was intolerant. Christianity is intolerant of *false* gods and *false* gospels. Why is it intolerant? Because it is shaped after Jesus. It is intolerant because there is a hell, and Jesus, who is God in flesh [John 1: 1,14; Col. 2:9], who died for our sins [I Pet. 2:24], has made the only way to forgiveness a reality: through Him alone [John 14:6] and without Him comes damnation.
On the other hand, Christianity is very tolerant. It teaches to be very forgiving [Matt. 18: 21-22], to be patient and kind [Gal. 5:22-23], and to be honest and wholesome [Phil. 4: 6-8]. Jesus taught us to love and to heal and to be examples of kindness and truth in the world. Jesus was intolerant of religious hypocrisy and bigotry. He was very intolerant of false teachers. He was intolerant of pride, rebellion, sin, covetousness, adultery, lying, cheating, stealing, fornicating, and murder. He was intolerant of husbands treating their wives poorly. He was intolerant of pain and was saddened by suffering. Yet, at the same time, He demonstrated the greatest love and patience with those who were guilty of all these things. WHY? Because He is God in flesh, incarnate Love, incarnate Righteousness, incarnate Humility.
The whole issue of whether or not Christianity is intolerant lies in WHO Jesus IS, what He claimed, and what He did. If what Jesus said and did IS true, then Christianity isn’t intolerant. It is simply true AND it is the world that IS intolerant of that truth.
Likewise, it is true that Jesus lived. It is true that Jesus walked on water [Matt. 8:26-27). It is true that Jesus healed the sick [Matt. 8: 5-13] . It is true that Jesus calmed a storm with a command [Mark. 4: 39]. It is true that Jesus raised the dead [Matt 9:25; John 11: 43-44]. It is true that Jesus claimed to be God [John 5:18; 8:24; 8:58). see Exodus 3:14]. It is true that Jesus was killed on a cross [Luke 24:20]. It is true that Jesus rose from the dead [Luke 24: 39; John 20: 27]. These are not feeble claims made by crazy people who wanted to gain power and fame. These are the claims of Christ Himself and of those who followed Him and suffered for Him and died for Him.
Either it is ALL true or it is NOT. Either Jesus performed miracles OR He did NOT. Either Jesus ROSE from the dead, OR He did NOT. Based solely and completely on WHO Jesus IS and what HE did, Christianity IS the truth, and by necessity all other religions that disagree with Jesus are wrong.
Truth, IS, by nature, intolerant of falsehood. If Christianity is not true, then Jesus was not God, then Jesus did not do miracles, then Jesus did not heal the sick, then Jesus did not walk on water, then Jesus did not die and rise from the dead after three days. BUT, if He DID do these things, then Christianity alone is true in all the religions in the world. Only Christianity has the person of Jesus, and Jesus said that He alone IS the way, the truth, and the life [John 14:6).
Therefore, Christianity, IS, only as intolerant as Jesus IS true!
(Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry)
We have read where the theologians agree the bible is a combination of allegories, parables and theology. Back in the day when Jesus walked the earth we have the impression events would not have been scribed in real-time and instead was as a result of events and stories recorded by word of mouth possibly after significant time had elasped especially pertaining to Jesus.
Wonder if there are any views on the observation.
It is interesting to read how we got the Bible we use today.
Here is a site that presented some interesting information.
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/
It claims the first written Word of God were the Ten Commandments delivered to Moses about 1400 BC.
Yet by then, God had made a covenant with Abraham and instructed Moses on how to deal with Pharoh.
How did man receive the Word of God before it was written down …..
…. and after it was written down, how did he receive it if he could not read and it was not widely distributed ….
…. and what if the Word of God was written in a language he could not understand?
If the Books of the Old Testament were written prior to 500 BC, and before 1400BC nothing was written down, then it becomes even more amazing that Simeon and Anna going simply on these texts could know who Jesus was as a baby ….
…. and if these texts were not available to the wise men, or if they did not read Hebrew, where did they get the idea from to journey to Bethlehem to see a Baby and give Him gifts?
The New Testament was completed according to the site by the 1st century AD, 100 years after the birth of Jesus, 67 after his death.
It is all about Him.
It is alot more believable that its human scribes could have got it right than that the human scribes of the Old Testament got that right
…. and yet Simeon and Anna only had the Old Testament to go by.
The blogmaster invites you to join the discussion.