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Submitted by ROK

freespeechI feel compelled to post this as a means of helping users to get an understanding of where they legally stand with internet usage. I believe that everyone should know their rights and when it comes to the internet, rights are hazy in the minds of the public. Many who are connected to the internet browse with much fear of viruses and other threats, especially theft of their identity; we hear the horror stories of identity theft and wish it not to be visited upon us.

It is important to note that when you start a blog or use any virtual platform, you agree to the terms of service of the provider. The action of BFP to post a defamatory article exceeded professional boundaries and breached the WordPress terms to which it had agreed. This defamatory exposition followed a long period of time where bloggers using BU were harassed, threatened and bullied to stop commenting on BU. It is a very important point because all along, BFP have been insinuating that BU commenters are without quality and that the BFP blog is superior. These are myths which must be debunked because from the WordPress policy on freedom of speech, a blog thread will only be removed if it contravenes WordPress’ Terms of Service and a blog thread was removed from BFP by WordPress.

It means that BFP breached the Terms of Service of WordPress.com and that WordPress took action against them based on the complaint of a private citizen. The next step for a private citizen who has been so harmed is to apply to the court for an order of pre-action disclosure to aid in bringing an action against the perpetrator.

I have only recently seen a copy of the Judgement in the Google case and after reading it, my conclusion is that this ruling is very relevant to us and brings the “virtual” internet environment in touch with the reality of modern day life, in such a way that there is no erosion of established rights and freedoms.

It seems obvious too that the USA is miles ahead of us down here struggling with these issues. This is obviously not the first such USA Court ruling as precedents are cited. Further, it is interesting to note how the legal principles have been transposed to the virtual environment, to make it a certainty that any citizen whose rights are infringed by an anonymous person on the internet has a guarantee from the court that it will force disclosure of the identity of the transgressor. Barbados did pass an act dealing with the use of the computer and digital transactions but I am unable to put my hands on it right now.

However, there can be no debate that the computer is an extension of the person and the internet is an extension of our environment where everything that happens in public is or can be at the fingertips of each user; transcending time lapses and distances between locations.

Of interest, here is the Court’s take on internet usage:

    The court also rejects the Anonymous Blogger’s argument that this court should find as a matter of law that Internet blogs serve as a modern day forum for conveying personal opinions, including invective and ranting, and that the statements in this action when considered in that context, cannot be reasonably understood as factual assertions.

    To the contrary, as one court in Virginia has articulated: “In that the Internet provides a virtually unlimited, inexpensive, and almost immediate means of communication with tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people, the dangers of its misuse cannot be ignored. The protection of the right to communicate anonymously must be balanced against the need to assure that those persons who choose to abuse the opportunities presented by this medium can be made to answer for such transgressions. Those who suffer damages as a result of tortious or other actionable communications on the Internet should be able to seek appropriate redress by preventing the wrongdoers from hiding behind an illusory shield of purported First Amendment rights.”

Anonymity has always been a bother to me. When I walk down Broad Street I am not anonymous so why when I go out into the “virtual” world I must be anonymous to the point where I am a shadow or a phantom? Hence, what the court has done is reinforced the principle that “transgressors” cannot do wrong and get away with it. Conversely, the court also guarantees that if you have not done a wrong, your anonymity will be protected.

In the Google case, for example, the test employed here was to determine if a wrong was committed. Google contended that no wrong was committed. The Judgment states: “In opposing (the) petitioner’s application, the Anonymous Blogger contends that (the) petitioner is not entitled to pre-action discovery because she cannot demonstrate a meritorious claim for defamation.”

Similarities lie in the two cases because on all points of law, BFP had “prima facie” defamed. There was/is nothing to contend. The defamation came by saying that an identifiable citizen and public personality was “protecting” (definitively) criminal activity; an accusation that is capable of being either proved or disproved.

The second element of the BFP case was malice because the BFP author admitted that the information could be confirmed on the internet and failed to give due consideration to the fact that it was out of the jurisdiction of Barbados and hence there could be no withholding of information from the Barbados Police.

Note that the courts proclaimed that abusers must be made to pay for “their transgressions”. Society cannot tolerate such abuse with impunity because it would wreak havoc on the society and it ought not to be inflicted on the society. However, without strong evidence that a wrong has been perpetrated, anonymity is protected. In the case of BFP there is a strong case that defamation was perpetrated; based on a statement that can be proven false and evidence that the conclusion is outrageous and could not be construed as fair comment. The Judge had this to say about such an eventuality under the term “Pre-Action Disclosure”:

    The law in New York governing pre-action discovery is well settled. CPLR 3 102(c) requires a court order for pre-action disclosure to aid in bringing an action or to preserve information. See Matter of Uddin v. New York Citv Transit Authority, 27 AD3d 265,266 (1st Dept 2006). When a party seeks pre-action disclosure to secure additional information necessary to frame a complaint or to identify the proper defendant with respect to a known cause of action, “courts traditionally require a strong showing that a cause of action exists.” Siegel, Supplementary Practice Commentaries, McKinney’s Cons Laws of NY, Book 7B, CPLR 31025 at 92. “‘A petition for pre-action discovery should only be granted when the petitioner demonstrates that he or she has a meritorious cause of action and that the information sought is material and necessary to the actionable wrong.”’ Matter Uddin v. New York Citv Transit Authority, supra at 266 (quoting Holzman v. Manhattan & Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authoritv, 271 AD2d 346, 347 [1st Dept 2000]); accord Matter of Peters v. Southeby’s Inc., 34 AD3d 29, 34 (1st Dept 2006), lv app den 8 NY3d 809 (2007); Matter of Bliss v. Jafin, 176 AD2d 106, 108 (1st Dept 1991); Matter of Stewart v. New York City Transit Authority, 112 AD2d 939 (2nd Dept 1985). “As a general rule, ‘the adequacy of merit rests within the sound discretion of the court. ’”

The courts recognise that the internet is a legitimate means of communications which has become commonplace and, to the extent that it is a public tool, it has to be for public benefit; as such the courts’ mandate as the judicial arm of the State is to ensure that it is safe for public use. The courts are therefore protecting blogs like Barbados Underground, which have objectives of freedom of speech; frank and free discussion at the national level on national issues and interests, but more important, has no hidden agenda to cause harm.

What this established is the boundaries where free speech and the anonymous use of the internet stops. The lessons learned are that you can blog your fingers off so long as you do not defame or commit other offences such as being a nuisance or persecuting people or any actionable offences which can be committed via the internet. Here is where the word “Transgressions” as used by the court is best understood because it does not stop at defamation; “Transgressions” is construed here to cover the spectrum of rights and responsibilities which we publicly enjoy.

Having said the above it is your right and your duty to ensure that none of these transgressions are inflicted upon you. By taking a stand, and for every transgression corrected, the more we will enjoy the rights given to us under our constitution and laws of Barbados. The downside of not standing up is that you will be bullied and intimidated as was experienced on BU.

A good guideline for blogging can be found in the wordpress.com policy on abuse and freedom of speech. Under abuse, wordpress states: In addition to spam and copyright issues, we will suspend blogs or blog posts for the following types of abuse:

  • Personal threats and revealing of personal information
  • Calls to violence
  • Impersonation of a private person
  • Accusations that can be proven wrong (for example wrongfully calling someone a convicted felon)

Under freedom of speech WordPress is even more instructive. It states: “The team behind WordPress.com strongly believes in freedom of speech. Our service is designed to let internet users freely express any ideas and opinions without us censoring or endorsing them. We think this has led to many great blogs being published on WordPress.com. However, you may also find the occasional blog that offends you. It might offend us as well, but while we are strict about shutting down blogs that violate our terms of service (no spam, personal threats, incitement of violence, etc), we will not shut down blogs because they are offensive. We think the right response to bad or offensive ideas is to speak out against them, not to censor them.”

In this regard, Barbados Underground should rise to the occasion and hold itself up as the example for all to see and follow because it has stuck within the boundaries of the terms of service of WordPress. Obviously, contributors, without any idea of the law or terms of service were able to gauge what was reasonable and acceptable.

As for the operators of blogs like David who may feel that they may be the target of a law suit in the event that an anonymous blogger defames somebody. If we take the cue from Google, David’s only legal duty is to release the name of the offender so long as it can be established that an actionable offence has been committed. As a matter of fact, there is nothing wrong with BU adopting a policy to disclose in such circumstances because we cannot be seen as harbouring wrongdoers. To reinforce what I said earlier, it must be established that an “actionable wrong” was committed before an identity is released.

The courts are certainly championing the cause of freedom of speech and the protection of individual rights. Furthermore, a lot more is recognised and settled in law than we realise and we should seek to familiarise ourselves or be taken advantage of by those who would seek to abuse.


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165 responses to “Google Court Decision Guarantees Public Protection On The Internet”


  1. Anon, ur not allowed to write such long posts suh hearly in d morning for I’m still half-asleep an can’t read dem properly!!

    Lord!!


  2. @ANON

    Thank you my dear Sir for your critical observation – however, as was suggested in the 3 postings I made, was to set at large the precedent made in the House of Lords in 1979.

    For the sake of “EDUCATION” – even for the lay-person (for which those with some legal knowledge tend to think it is the domain of those with LLB’s and who have done their LPC’s and have passed BAR exams) – to my mind is nothing short of mere HOGWASH*…

    The common lay-person remains in the dark because he is unfamiliar with both the criminal & the common law statutes and what they are and how they can be applied….

    That is my job as someone (who is a political sociologist) having studied LAW & CRIMINOLOGY at University level including Political Theory and Human Right Law – makes me more than able to disseminate through whatever medium necessary the knowledge folks need to make not just informed decisions but “food” for their own personal mental expansion…

    Lawyers in BIM* get away with murder because they think they occupy some “HALLOWED”, God-given domain which has become the luxury of the few at the financial and judicial expense of the many….While hiding behind a veneer of supposed legality are crooks, embezzlers and highway robbers with a legal license to do as they please…

    For those within the BU family who want even more transparency on the issues ROK* has raised in this serious article pertaining to all of our human and individual rights – below I have added some contemporary legal analysis (given that ANON* thought I could not invoke posthumously or otherwise the common law statutes from 1979 from a House of Lords ruling) – as in his estimation, it did not address a 2009 issue regarding legalities of internet libel, slander or defamation.

    Here are a few links for those who need additional legal fodder to make their own informed decisions:

    http://www.uow.edu.au/~bmartin/dissent/documents/defamation.html

    http://www.rogerclarke.com/II/DefWeb01.html

    http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/defamation-in-cyberspace.html

    http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Oct/7/126176.html


  3. @ Anon // September 16, 2009 at 3:17 AM

    I don’t know who you think you are fooling.


  4. @Terence M. Blackett // September 16, 2009 at 5:57 AM . I fear that you misunderstand me and YES, it does make a difference to have an LLB and to have worked in law, rather than just to have read the cases. You and I disagree completely there. However, that is a tangent and I ain’t going there.

    My point, simply, is that these cases that you cite are as dull as ditchwater for the average, non-legal reader and if you seek to educate people, then you must do so in a way that they, busy with their own lives and professions, can take on board easily. An extreme example is Bimbro (sorry Bimbro) but he gets his point across every time – which I suspect you have not. Except to me and few others.

    What I am asking you to do is what ROK and David and Pat and Adrian and Chris – most people -have done. Keep it simple. I am concerned, because you have something of real merit to say that I believe ought to be heard. So use your own words, not the words of senior judges. Merely a suggestion and what I hope you will do. But, hell man, it is your right to do it any way you want.

    Yes, Ebenezer, I know that you feel a desperate need for attention so let me not deny you it. Children should always receive a certain amount of indulgence. So, I HAVE seen your post – what an unbelievable little Ebenezer you are. Happy now? Good! Run back to the other children at BFP like a good little stooge. When you grow up, let us know and then you can play with the grownups. Bye. Make sure you take your diapers and your feeding bottle with you. Oh boy!


  5. Thanks for that compliment, Anon! I’m just grateful to receive any attention at all!!

    Laaaaaaaadddddddddddddddd!!


  6. Sorry, Mr Blackett, I have just looked at http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/defamation-in-cyberspace.html . I have also looked up the name of its author, Eric Eden, on the web, but see no evidence that he is a legal expert. Am I missing something? Please advise me. As far as I can discern, this is merely a discussion of internet defamation – no different to this one on BU. Am I getting this wrong?


  7. So, Patrick/Ebenezer/Sargeant/PiedPiper/NoName ….. who the hell you think YOU fooling? Chauvinist Control Freak Jackass.


  8. … just a stupid question but where (in what country) exactly is WordPress published and what is the law there (ie in that country) relating to defamation?

    Just had a quick read through of the article and comments and this came to mind.

    If I missed it apologies.


  9. Here’s something for ROK to think about. I do not need a reply.

    IP addresses: can identify location of material sent over Internet. However, IP addresses can change at a given location. A person can also move location and by so doing change IP address. All IP addresses do is locate point of despatch.

    E-mail address: is something that a person can use to send and receive messages over the Internet. They are unique, only up to a point. Scammers can replicate them. Valid access can be given to as many people as the true owner chooses. If they exist in a corporate work area, they may identify closely an employed person. BUT, the fact that an e-mail address exists is no indication that there is a real person behind the address (robots can assign themselves e-mail addresses).

    Even with a given name that is verifiable, there is no guarantee that any material associated with that name is actually originated by the person with that name.

    The only way to prove who sends material is if there is some biometric trace of the individual. Other forms of identification–passwords, digital signatures, etc.–can all be replicated and shared.

    10 people in a room working from one router can all do so using the same IP address. So, IP addresses give no idea of singleness or multipleness.

    If someone claims authorship on the Internet that can be contested. Other evidence beyond a claim will need to brought to light to PROVE authorship. It will be rare that multiple claims would come for malign information, but it is quite possible that many may want to claim authorship of some benigh information.

    So, I would guess that whatever people feel has been ‘shown’ in the Google case regarding identity, it is very flimsy. Had the blogger concerned denied that she had been the author where would the courts have gone?

    The lawyers have yet to get their teeth into this topic and a field day lays ahead.


  10. @Rickey George… You *so* don’t understand what you’re talking about…

    Yes, some IPs change. (They’re known as dynamic IPs.) But not often. And not always — serious consumers have static IPs so they can run servers et al.

    The service provider maintain logs of what IP is assigned to whom, when, and for how long. All it takes is a court-ordered request to get this information.

    Further, you leave a trail just about every time you “surf” the web. Think cookies. Think Google AdSense/AdWords et al.

    Further, any serious business will be monitoring and logging everything their staff do on the Internet…

    With regards to e-mail, again, you’re partially correct. But also partially (and critically) wrong. You do know how to read SMTP headers, right?

    And your statement “Other forms of identification–passwords, digital signatures, etc.–can all be replicated and shared.” is laughable. And I’ll prove it in my next post. But, importantly, digital signatures are proof that the message originated from a particular individual — the antithesis of anonymity….


  11. @Ricky George…

    The below is a “digital signature” of my last paragraph immediately above. *Anyone* could use Open Source Software to confirm that only I could have signed it.

    There are maybe only three or four countries in the world who would have the computing resources available to be able to fake the above.

    And they’re not likely to be so motivated.

    QED….

    —–BEGIN PGP MESSAGE—–
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

    owFtUD1LA0EQPaMRFARTBNtp7MIhNhZa+AGiImhn6yS7uQzc7R67czHXXWFhIwoq
    KCZoJUGwEEFLwcbCf2B5WCoI1oqbgJ3NDDzeF+9wbNArlLoHnfeXk8n2wM3AenXY
    BD63eO22PL2gBKQ6MWAZWUZSMeRZe4Mb0kBdm8iCrgMJh1OdasikVZ4dxWjtjjbC
    VkBQQIwhWAoUcmKkwyTXfMeqoQIMQ6hKMDIOe3IpAF2ibaCRwnE6QBZCTIIGVkPp
    Q6/Oap6dOVVsdFMCMZCCKAUlWwyxtuzDYsIVoCjWhlFxmP5XAlxAz8K15wayOxIi
    aS0GErRxdNUvUzc6AoQYDVMtCdG4NEFNEolzy7Pjvs6FkPuW+mOg0iqNiNM8u/JH
    95aHvFLBGy4Wemt6oyPjf0t/z3uXj3db95sz+1/XK+XTbFvMLOwWf7yLjdfWxNzz
    28fT58P5Gc1OLX11p38B
    =7QgE
    —–END PGP MESSAGE—–


  12. @Chris

    Sometimes it is good to let the wicked wallow in their ignorance because in the long run you are able to weed them out.


  13. @ROK… I copy, understand and appreciate your above.

    But, when a Fool tries to lie to others, I feel compelled to point out the fallacy….


  14. @Anon

    Let us deal with the substance of the article in question rather than the messenger. Is the content credible?

    You know, I remember witnessing an industrial dispute tribunal where one worker had a lawyer among the best legal minds and the other had an union representative. Needless to say the Union Rep tore up the lawyer to bits.

    Never underestimate the layman who finds himself as an expert in the field through pure experience… and he will have a thing or two to teach lawyers; especially those who have never been to the subject matter.


  15. @Chris

    I fully understand you and I feel the same. As a matter of fact I told him so in so many words and he chooses to come back with the same foolishness… but he should ask himself the question, which American would own up if there was no clear trace? Joker!

    You see, he is trying to convince himself to the contrary that is why I strongly feel that he up to some wickedness. Let him continue in his ignorance. See he also asking about jurisdiction? I will no longer respond to him. If he feel that he could transgress and get away with it, let him go right ahead.


  16. ROK // September 16, 2009 at 1:19 PM . I am not sure what article you are referring to. If those from Mr Blackett, yes, of course it is credible. But is it RELEVANT. I am not sure that it is. I was very young, 30 years ago, but I remember a very different time where you did have to watch what you wrote and when the judgment cited was the end all. The Internet is different and the laws as they stood for defamation even 15 years ago are no relevant in terms of the internet.

    As for your example of someone learning on the job and confounding a lawyer in a court action, of course it can happen and does happen. However, the statistics are such that what you have cited is the exception that proves my rule. In a court situation, you come up against all sorts of rules. That is one of the reasons that lawyers cannot just change juridicions without passing exams in those jurisdictions.

    For any kind of internet defamation laws to work, they are going to need to be as the result of an international accord or convention that most countries will become signatories to and that will rank superior to the defamation laws of that country, if only in the case of the Internet.

    Otherwise, what happens is that you have to sue in the country in which you have suffered damage. However, if you suffer damage in New York and the party you sue has all their assets in Barbados, you have to enforce the judgment from New York in Barbados.

    See how complicated and expensive it can get? And I have not even mentioned that some countries will refuse to enforce the judgment if the laws that support the judgment are not in accord with their own. Canada is one such.

    Therefore, for internet defamation legislation to work and be enforceable, it has to be governed by an international convention. Like copyright and trademarks and other less contentious issues.

    I hope that helps.


  17. @Anon

    I meant the article by Eric Eden.

    Yes I agree with you that there must be some move towards harmonisation of legislation, which as you say is best achieved by some convention… and yes, the discussion is being richly enhanced.


  18. Good Googly Moogly


  19. Anon

    Here is an example where we know the all the identities except the poster of some comments, Royalrumble.

    http://labourparty.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/thompson-unbelievable/

    A blogger, Royalrumble, has come onto the blog and made remarks about a specific person, Adrian Loveridge.

    You can read them for yourself.

    The remarks have stayed for a long time.

    Are the remarks defamaory?

    Since the person responsible for the content of the blog is known and is a local entity is it a simple matter of bringing an action of defamation against that person in the local law courts if the remarks are deemed to be defamatory?

    Does the action need to be brought against WordPress because it is the actual publisher?

    Where is WordPress publishing?

    What are the defamation laws under which it operates?

    If an action is started against WordPress will it need to be started in the jurisdiction where WordPress operates?

    I found this other link to the Defamation Act in Barbados on BU.

    http://bajan.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/cap199.pdf


  20. @John et al…

    You are familiar with the concept of the statute of limitations…

    Right???

    If you are harmed, then make the claim immediately…

  21. mash up & buy back Avatar
    mash up & buy back

    rok,chris et al,
    what is all the point of this shit.

    I think you all made your points 5 days ago,now it seems you trying to shut down the free expression on this blog,by all of this supposition shite.

    How helpful is that?

    Enough already man,we get the point ever long time since!


  22. @MUBB: “I think you all made your points 5 days ago,now it seems you trying to shut down the free expression on this blog,by all of this supposition shite.

    You misunderstand…

    The “undead” keep rising.

    And there are still important points to be made…

    My apologies if we’re boring you….

  23. mash up & buy back Avatar
    mash up & buy back

    O.K. Chris, I will be advised by you,though I do feel strongly about my point.


  24. Chris

    I came across this in the act

    29. (1) Subject to this section no action for defamation shall be
    brought unless it is commenced before the expiration of 3 years from
    the date when the right of action accrued.

    Does this mean that if the action is not started before 2010 that it cannot be brought?

    When would the right of action have accrued? …. whatever that means.


  25. @John…

    So, bring forward the lawsuit…

    You only have a few more months to do so….


  26. @ANON
    “it does make a difference to have an LLB and to have worked in law, rather than just to have read the cases. You and I disagree completely there. However, that is a tangent and I ain’t going there. My point, simply, is that these cases that you cite are as dull as ditchwater for the average, non-legal reader and if you seek to educate people, then you must do so in a way that they, busy with their own lives and professions, can take on board easily…”

    For all the reasons you cite to prop up your argument – there is nothing there which is embellished with any real objectivity but rather a shallow attempt at disguised subjectivity…

    Presupposition continues to be the Achilles heel of many who believe that the common law and issues pertaining to jurisprudence MUST*remain the solitary domain of the privilege few…

    Sadly this logic is completely ludicrous, ill-conceived, out-dated and it does not allow the average guy on the street the opportunity to understand even his basic rights…

    Fenton Bresler’s book “Law Without A Lawyer” ISBN 1-85619-320-9 is something every layperson should have – as a means of educating themselves about the law…

    As an academic, I would not knock anyone who has worked hard for 3 – 4 years to acquire a legal degree. What I have a problem with and so does a lot of liberal thinkers is the ossification of the entrenched bias which is pervasive within the legal profession…

    The House of Lords maybe a cold, sterile mausoleum of antiquated traditions where the Herculean task of crafting the LAW* is left to some of the most astute legal minds… For most this exercise may be drab and dreary but these laws affects all of in one way or another…

    What’s boring for one person may spark the interest of another… You or I do NOT* have to right to decide who is and who isn’t… That is the exclusive territory of the individual… That is why “FREEDOM” is enshrined as an inalienable rite to all…

    On of my biggest criticisms of the legal profession in Barbados and those who are practitioners of the law and/or so-called officers of the court is that it is a “secret society” of chauvinistic hogs who feed rapaciously at the trough of monetary greed and self-indulgence at the expense of the IGNORANCE* of the guy in the street – and that shouldn’t be…

    THE LAW IS NOT AN EXCLUSIVE CLUB OR DOMAIN!!!

    I wonder how many Bajan practitioners of the law would survive in an environment where there are real checks and balances and where oversite* and accountability exist…

    The answer to that may be FEW*….


  27. @ ANON
    “I have also looked up the name of its author, Eric Eden, on the web, but see no evidence that he is a legal expert….”

    ARE YOU A LEGAL EXPERT?

    Where on the internet can I find your contributions to the legal debate – in terms of case law, submissions and/or reviews??? Where are your contributions to the law review? Has your research work been the object of study for undergraduate, graduate or postgraduate students?

    I am sure that Mr. Eden can produce a wealth of information on the LAW* in his own defense and he doesn’t need you or me to validate or ratify his capabilities in the said discipline…

    One of things I find lamentable is the arrogance we display towards other people who frankly are complete strangers to us and if they do NOT* marry circumspectly with our views or prejudices – we are quick to throw a bucket of ice cold water… That kind of narrow-minded tunnel vision does not wash in the grander scheme of things…

    Sorry son!!!


  28. Chris Halsall, your comments confirm that you can locate the where but not confirm the who. If my pet monkey is logged on to my computer and manages to send messages from my e-mail account, that is nothing to do with me. Likewise, if my spouse or children have access rights that I give them. So, what you say is no indication of the who. You may be a particularly knowledgeable person on the Internet but you are far from average. If a system were devised to isolate each individual so that only he/she could operate a particular account then your arguments would seem more cogent.

    All I would propose is think about what would happen if you gave all of your keys etc to someone else. If in using those keys they become you or remain themselves, then that would make matters clear.


  29. @Rickey George: “If my pet monkey is logged on to my computer and manages to send messages from my e-mail account, that is nothing to do with me.

    You are conveniently forgetting the existing legal prescient…

    Be it auto insurance, or Internet access, it is the “Payee of Record” who is ultimately responsible for what is done…

    Why do you think you don’t give your auto keys to your under-age children?

    Why do you think businesses are so concerned by what their employees do on-line while in the office?

    Sure, when your pet monkey defames someone, you can take the fall…

    Or you can out the monkey, and see if the jury buys it….


  30. Here is a story about how Facebook was ordered to disclose information relating to the establishment of a fake Facebook account. The court ordered Facebook to disclose the IP addresses from which the information originated.

    http://www.thestar.com/business/article/696403


  31. Chris, I don’t know if u answered my earlier question or r trying to evade it but, here it is again!!

    Do u receive preferential treatment in Bim, just because ur a pretty, white boy?!! and, if so, how do u feel about dat!

    I bet yuh like it!!


  32. Terence M. Blackett // September 16, 2009 at 6:20 PM . I said earlier that it DOES make a difference to have an LLB. I thank you for proving my point both here and in your later article.


  33. @ Chris Halsall. The comment on legislation on limitation of actions. You are, of course, correct – as always. However, be aware that the limitation period will only start to run from the time you discover the cause of action and damage to yourself. This is not a recent tenent of law, but in fact goes back to about 1804 or something like that. It is well settled. Internationally.

    @John. If Mr Loveridge wants some legal advice, I am sure my bretheren will be very happy to assist him – for their usual (and individual) fees, which one assumes he can pay or, if Dame Rumour is correct, have paid for him.


  34. ROK // September 16, 2009 at 1:51 PM . Eden’s article is an opinion only – a blog. It is not authorotative in any way, but Mr Blackett, whether accidentially or by design (I prefer to put it down to lack of sound legal knowedge) has put it in amongst authorotative decisions that a court would take notice of, thus giving the impression that this blog opinion (which has the same status as his own and, in this format, my own – and yours) is authorotative and should be followed. That is not correct. Worse, it is dangerous. A court would not consider Mr Eden’s article, unless he had the necessary standing as an expert in that legal specialty, to give an opinion. Mr Blackett seems unable (or unwilling) to provide us with guidance on Mr Eden’s background. Therefore, while very interesting as a discussion, it has no more weight than any of our opinions, including that of that internationally popular pretty black boy named Bimbro. Sorry, Bimbro, said with great liking.

    As to its relevance and value, well, it is a lot more relevant and valuable in terms of internet defamation than the 30 year old case Mr Blackett first cited. BUT, it is still just an opinion and in a discussion format. Like this one. Entering it in court would be like that case in Canada where a whole lot of blogs from BFP and Keltruth were entered as exhibits and then not considered by the court because they had no credence. Mr Eden’s opinions are, of course, interesting….like all of ours are. But no more than that.

    This is an important discussion. I am sure it is being widely read by our lawmakers and maybe it will manage to propose to them some ideas that they can bring to the table when an international internet defamation accord or convention is being formulated. Given the Google decision, I would guess that this convention is already well advanced. It, and its supporting legislation, is unlikely to be retroactive. So, now we must move on to set some guidelines by which to govern ourselves for our own protection and that of the blogs to which we contribute from here on in.

    What you have done, ROK, is an enormous step in Barbados terms. You don’t know who I am in this medium, but I have known you (not well) for years and you are very far from being a stupid man and you must have known what you were potentially letting yourself in for. It took a lot of courage to seek redress for the scandalous allegations made by BFP. In doing so and in winning, you have forced everyone to focus on the issue of Internet defamation far more surely that BU’s previous report – you have given substance to David’s previous report.

    For me, the questions now are:

    1. How do we protect our blog rights?

    2. How do we avoid defaming someone?

    The two questions are interconnected and I can write a whole treaties (backed with RELEVANT case law and AUTHOROTATIVE opinions) that would put everyone, including some hardened legal professionals, to sleep within seconds. Perfect for the insomniacs.

    In a nutshell, however (and taking the view that insomnia is best cured by liberal doses of good Barbados rum) in the broad sense, one need only follow a couple of guidelines:

    1. Do not say anything that you do not know (or reasonably believe – and I do not mean “A body tell me so”) to be the truth.

    2. In reporting the matter, do so with an absense of malice and/or in the public interest.

    3. If it is demonstrated (or you have reason to believe) that you are wrong or have been misinformed, say so and APOLOGIZE!!!!

    Had WordPress not forced BFP to withdraw its scandalous report, you and BANGO would have had the right to force WordPress to reveal the names of the BFP people and, as the damage occurred in Barbados, you could have sued them. I don’t recommend it now, as it would be a costly and by no means sure way of going and I do believe that their having been forced to withdraw their article so publicly would probably be viewed as restitution enough by the courts.

    However, you cannot help wishing that the parents of the people at BFP had taught them a few manners so they could actually post something and say they are sorry.


  35. @Chris Halsall, who takes the fall is not the same as who did the deed. If we want to monkey around, we can, and the monkey gets away, while the owner gets nabbed. So, we are agreed. He who does he deed is not he who will pay the price. He who may pay the price may actually be oblivious of the misdeed in question.

    If I return to find police outside my house and their claiming me for my (under 18) teenager having done some deed on the Internet I may accept that responsibility. But it would still always be the case that the kid did it.

    Where the logic you posit works well is with children and misdeeds. There are those who say that parents should always be ‘liable’ or ‘responsible’ for their children’s misdeeds. Do you think we have reached a point of acceptance of this by society in general or Barbados in particular. Which parent will go to school and take the punishment instead of the child?


  36. @Anon

    Not sure I like the direction you taking with TMB, but it is not a big issue… but for our readers, maybe you should delve into the difference between who can give an opinion and who is the authority. Of course, the Court can be asked to give an opinion; to what extent is such opinion an authority.

    Actually, that is one of the issues which came up in the FTC hearing with BL&P. In this case, I am not settling for the court’s opinion as authority over the situation because there are points of discretion which to my mind are being conveniently overlooked by the Commission and the Chairman is constantly referring to the opinion as a ruling.

    However, in anything that I do or say, I constantly seek a balance between fair comment, the law and the public good. For me, it is paramount that the people know all that they could.

    This position was cemented a while back when data was collected from a country over the span of 10 – 15 years where grant funding was being given through the government for developing an educational infrastructure.

    When the first grant was given, only about 10%-20% of the money actually went into education. The rest just disappeared.

    After a few years of that, it was decided to do an awareness campaign which would alert the communities that the Government was to receive funds to build schools.

    With the next grant, 50%-60% of the funds went to building schools. As the news spread in the following year, 80% of the funds was going to schools, until it reached 90% and went on to 100%. In three years the picture had turned completely around.

    This example showed me the vital importance of giving the public information. Secrecy in Government is not good and to that end, the question of Cabinet being secret is up for debate.

    Don’t take me wrong, I understand the need for confidentiality which is far different from secret… and it is therefore my opinion that secrecy and confidentiality should be for a short time period.

    There are times when reports are not made public and that should never happen. If we allow those things to happen we place ourselves at risk of corruption.

    I think I may have strayed a bit but the question I want to pose to you is about your statement that, “their having been forced to withdraw their article so publicly would probably be viewed as restitution enough by the courts. ”

    In the case of Google, the court did not see removal of the posts as restitution enough and felt in that case that for the damage done, removal of the posts, was insufficient. What makes it sufficient in this case?

    Second, why would it be costly now and why would wordpress not be forced to reveal the identities now without court intervention?

    I am asking these questions within the context of preserving anonymity on the one hand and making the offender known on the other. Is there a relationship?


  37. Chris, Anon

    What do you think would be the outcome of a case in our courts against any political party that is holding or has held the reins of government?

    ….. and I agree, the comments are horrible and warrant court action ……

    … but, I am betting our former and future leaders leaders would want to disassociate themselves from the words and sentiments behind them.

    The wrong is there for the public to see for itself

    …….. my real hope is that our leaders will in public, articulate their abhorrence of what is so clearly stated for all the world to see.

    Let’s see what happens.


  38. ROK, in haste.

    First of all, I look on this as your baby, as it were, so do not hesitate to indicate the direction you want me to go in with this and I don’t mind being directed by you in this.

    I seriously don’t think that even you have any idea how important this issue is and how far reaching the consequences. I suppose the indicator is that there has been relatively little silly content. Most people are seeing it as an important issue in which we can play a part, however minute, in assisting with the formulation of an international convention. And for such to work, it has to be all-inclusive and take into account the interests of all peoples.

    To your main question, which, unless I am mistaken, is the point of restitution. I know that libel, which is what this was, in most jurisdictions – all the ones I know of anyway – is actionable without proof of damage. However, on the matter of damages, a judge will have to weigh up and decide what, if anything, should be paid.

    Your counsel would probably advise you to rest on your laurels and not to go after damages. You would get costs in any case as the successful litigant in a case like this.

    If I were judging it, given the massive beating up you and BANGO administered to BFP, I think I would award two cents only plus your costs. BFP’s effort to defame you and BANGO rebounded on them with deadly effect. They, not you, completely lost whatever shreds of credibility they had left, which was not a lot – and they did it on a worldwide basis. I would take the view that matters had been put right as far as you are concerned and that you are not entitled to any further compensation.

    But, that is only my opinion.

    I know little of the other matters you have written about, so give me the chance to educate myself and I will get back to you.


  39. To Anonymous. “If I were judging it, given the massive beating up you and BANGO administered to BFP, I think I would award two cents only plus your costs. BFP’s effort to defame you and BANGO rebounded on them with deadly effect.” I think it’s good that you are not judging it. What massive beating up? BFP looks just like it did a few days ago. They pulled an article and they (in their way) acknowledged it, and seem to be seeing if it can be reversed.

    This ‘deadly effect’ looks like what? Dead means not living. BFP lives on. You may not like it but it’s still there. Dont get carried away with the hyperbole.


  40. @Anon: “The comment on legislation on limitation of actions. You are, of course, correct – as always.

    Please. I am not always correct. I can be spectacularly wrong. I just try to be correct more often than I’m wrong.

    @Anon: “However, be aware that the limitation period will only start to run from the time you discover the cause of action and damage to yourself. This is not a recent tenent of law, but in fact goes back to about 1804 or something like that. It is well settled. Internationally.

    This intrigues me. And I would very much welcome if you could expand on it, as you are obviously trained in the Art of Law, while I am not.

    From my Geeky Layman’s perspective, it is my opinion that this might be one of the areas of case law which needs to be re-examined through the lens of modern technology.

    Again, from my layman’s perspective, it would seem to me to make more sense for the temporal limitation for action being brought would be when the act of defamation was first conducted and/or transmitted.

    My thinking is that if one was actually publicly harmed, one would hear about it pretty quickly (since, by definition, it would have caused public harm).

    My thinking further is that, for example, the Barbados Advocate (in an editorial a few months ago) argued that they could not keep their archives on-line because decisions in the UK set the precedent that harm was caused each and every time a defamational article was transmitted, and the “clock started ticking” at the time of each transmission.

    One might reasonably wonder then, if this was taken to the extreme, whether libraries will be able to keep and make available archives of newspapers. Or, even for that matter, books.

    (Let’s ignore the fact that perhaps the Fourth Estate would go out of their way not to publish defamational articles. And if they do, that they would apologize as soon as they realized their error.)

    @Anon… I would truly welcome your thoughts on my above. And, please, if you must be anonymous, please choose a more unique handle so we know the abstraction that we are reading and addressing.

    Kindest regards.


  41. “including that of that internationally popular pretty black boy named Bimbro.”

    *****************

    Laaaaaaadddddddddd!! Yuh got dat right, Anon!!

    Laaaaaddddddddddddddddd!!

    Chris, I’m so envious. Just what IS it like to be a pretty, white boy in Bim!! Do all the girls fancy u, black as well as white? I’m dying to know!! – even wearing those glasses?!!


  42. Barbadian World Champion Ryan Brathwaite at the top of this blog.

    Priceless.

    Congrats to Ryan Brathwaite.


  43. @John: “What do you think would be the outcome of a case in our courts against any political party that is holding or has held the reins of government?

    I am not a Lawyer (IANAL).

    But as a layman, the first question I would ask you in response to your above would be: a case based on what charge or harm?

    You say “…and I agree, the comments are horrible and warrant court action…

    But you don’t actually indicate what horrible comments you are referring to.

    Care to expand and explain?


  44. Chris

    I was trying to avoid copying and pasting the remarks attributed to Royalrumble on the site as I had done in another thread on impulse when I found them.

    Who knows, maybe I would then become liable for repeating the words.

    I am sure Anon will let me know when he/she responds to you.

    I took your suggestion to bring forward the lawsuit to mean that a lawsuit was warranted based on what you had read.

    Apologies if I misinterpreted.


  45. @John…

    Ah, now I understand… You’re referring to you own post of 2009.09.16.1553 on this same Blog Entry, which references the URL http://labourparty.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/thompson-unbelievable/

    My layman’s take on this is that Royalrumble demonstrated that they are an idiot, and Mr. Loveridge was more than able to handle himself against same.

    I will leave it to the learned Mr. Anon to speak to the legal dimension of your question, since I am not so qualified.

    Best regards.


  46. @John: “I took your suggestion to bring forward the lawsuit to mean that a lawsuit was warranted based on what you had read.

    “Apologies if I misinterpreted.

    A simple layman’s question… Were *you* harmed?

    @John… Here’s a bit of advise…

    You many not like what is said or done around you…

    But unless *you* personally are harmed by other’s actions, you have no case nor recourse….


  47. Chris, lawyer or not, white boy or not, d girls in Bim still fancy u an, I should like to know how u does do it!! 🙂


  48. Especially, wearing dose glasses!!


  49. Bonny, or anybody else, did I tell u the tale of ‘The Doggie and the Barbadians an why d Barbadians in fair’, before? If I did n’t and ud like to hear it please let me know!!

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