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Submitted by ROK

freespeechI feel compelled to post this as a means of helping users to get an understanding of where they legally stand with internet usage. I believe that everyone should know their rights and when it comes to the internet, rights are hazy in the minds of the public. Many who are connected to the internet browse with much fear of viruses and other threats, especially theft of their identity; we hear the horror stories of identity theft and wish it not to be visited upon us.

It is important to note that when you start a blog or use any virtual platform, you agree to the terms of service of the provider. The action of BFP to post a defamatory article exceeded professional boundaries and breached the WordPress terms to which it had agreed. This defamatory exposition followed a long period of time where bloggers using BU were harassed, threatened and bullied to stop commenting on BU. It is a very important point because all along, BFP have been insinuating that BU commenters are without quality and that the BFP blog is superior. These are myths which must be debunked because from the WordPress policy on freedom of speech, a blog thread will only be removed if it contravenes WordPressโ€™ Terms of Service and a blog thread was removed from BFP by WordPress.

It means that BFP breached the Terms of Service of WordPress.com and that WordPress took action against them based on the complaint of a private citizen. The next step for a private citizen who has been so harmed is to apply to the court for an order of pre-action disclosure to aid in bringing an action against the perpetrator.

I have only recently seen a copy of the Judgement in the Google case and after reading it, my conclusion is that this ruling is very relevant to us and brings the โ€œvirtualโ€ internet environment in touch with the reality of modern day life, in such a way that there is no erosion of established rights and freedoms.

It seems obvious too that the USA is miles ahead of us down here struggling with these issues. This is obviously not the first such USA Court ruling as precedents are cited. Further, it is interesting to note how the legal principles have been transposed to the virtual environment, to make it a certainty that any citizen whose rights are infringed by an anonymous person on the internet has a guarantee from the court that it will force disclosure of the identity of the transgressor. Barbados did pass an act dealing with the use of the computer and digital transactions but I am unable to put my hands on it right now.

However, there can be no debate that the computer is an extension of the person and the internet is an extension of our environment where everything that happens in public is or can be at the fingertips of each user; transcending time lapses and distances between locations.

Of interest, here is the Courtโ€™s take on internet usage:

    The court also rejects the Anonymous Bloggerโ€™s argument that this court should find as a matter of law that Internet blogs serve as a modern day forum for conveying personal opinions, including invective and ranting, and that the statements in this action when considered in that context, cannot be reasonably understood as factual assertions.

    To the contrary, as one court in Virginia has articulated: โ€œIn that the Internet provides a virtually unlimited, inexpensive, and almost immediate means of communication with tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people, the dangers of its misuse cannot be ignored. The protection of the right to communicate anonymously must be balanced against the need to assure that those persons who choose to abuse the opportunities presented by this medium can be made to answer for such transgressions. Those who suffer damages as a result of tortious or other actionable communications on the Internet should be able to seek appropriate redress by preventing the wrongdoers from hiding behind an illusory shield of purported First Amendment rights.โ€

Anonymity has always been a bother to me. When I walk down Broad Street I am not anonymous so why when I go out into the โ€œvirtualโ€ world I must be anonymous to the point where I am a shadow or a phantom? Hence, what the court has done is reinforced the principle that โ€œtransgressorsโ€ cannot do wrong and get away with it. Conversely, the court also guarantees that if you have not done a wrong, your anonymity will be protected.

In the Google case, for example, the test employed here was to determine if a wrong was committed. Google contended that no wrong was committed. The Judgment states: โ€œIn opposing (the) petitionerโ€™s application, the Anonymous Blogger contends that (the) petitioner is not entitled to pre-action discovery because she cannot demonstrate a meritorious claim for defamation.โ€

Similarities lie in the two cases because on all points of law, BFP had โ€œprima facieโ€ defamed. There was/is nothing to contend. The defamation came by saying that an identifiable citizen and public personality was โ€œprotectingโ€ (definitively) criminal activity; an accusation that is capable of being either proved or disproved.

The second element of the BFP case was malice because the BFP author admitted that the information could be confirmed on the internet and failed to give due consideration to the fact that it was out of the jurisdiction of Barbados and hence there could be no withholding of information from the Barbados Police.

Note that the courts proclaimed that abusers must be made to pay for โ€œtheir transgressionsโ€. Society cannot tolerate such abuse with impunity because it would wreak havoc on the society and it ought not to be inflicted on the society. However, without strong evidence that a wrong has been perpetrated, anonymity is protected. In the case of BFP there is a strong case that defamation was perpetrated; based on a statement that can be proven false and evidence that the conclusion is outrageous and could not be construed as fair comment. The Judge had this to say about such an eventuality under the term โ€œPre-Action Disclosureโ€:

    The law in New York governing pre-action discovery is well settled. CPLR 3 102(c) requires a court order for pre-action disclosure to aid in bringing an action or to preserve information. See Matter of Uddin v. New York Citv Transit Authority, 27 AD3d 265,266 (1st Dept 2006). When a party seeks pre-action disclosure to secure additional information necessary to frame a complaint or to identify the proper defendant with respect to a known cause of action, โ€œcourts traditionally require a strong showing that a cause of action exists.โ€ Siegel, Supplementary Practice Commentaries, McKinneyโ€™s Cons Laws of NY, Book 7B, CPLR 31025 at 92. โ€œโ€˜A petition for pre-action discovery should only be granted when the petitioner demonstrates that he or she has a meritorious cause of action and that the information sought is material and necessary to the actionable wrong.โ€โ€™ Matter Uddin v. New York Citv Transit Authority, supra at 266 (quoting Holzman v. Manhattan & Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authoritv, 271 AD2d 346, 347 [1st Dept 2000]); accord Matter of Peters v. Southebyโ€™s Inc., 34 AD3d 29, 34 (1st Dept 2006), lv app den 8 NY3d 809 (2007); Matter of Bliss v. Jafin, 176 AD2d 106, 108 (1st Dept 1991); Matter of Stewart v. New York City Transit Authority, 112 AD2d 939 (2nd Dept 1985). โ€œAs a general rule, โ€˜the adequacy of merit rests within the sound discretion of the court. โ€™โ€

The courts recognise that the internet is a legitimate means of communications which has become commonplace and, to the extent that it is a public tool, it has to be for public benefit; as such the courtsโ€™ mandate as the judicial arm of the State is to ensure that it is safe for public use. The courts are therefore protecting blogs like Barbados Underground, which have objectives of freedom of speech; frank and free discussion at the national level on national issues and interests, but more important, has no hidden agenda to cause harm.

What this established is the boundaries where free speech and the anonymous use of the internet stops. The lessons learned are that you can blog your fingers off so long as you do not defame or commit other offences such as being a nuisance or persecuting people or any actionable offences which can be committed via the internet. Here is where the word โ€œTransgressionsโ€ as used by the court is best understood because it does not stop at defamation; โ€œTransgressionsโ€ is construed here to cover the spectrum of rights and responsibilities which we publicly enjoy.

Having said the above it is your right and your duty to ensure that none of these transgressions are inflicted upon you. By taking a stand, and for every transgression corrected, the more we will enjoy the rights given to us under our constitution and laws of Barbados. The downside of not standing up is that you will be bullied and intimidated as was experienced on BU.

A good guideline for blogging can be found in the wordpress.com policy on abuse and freedom of speech. Under abuse, wordpress states: In addition to spam and copyright issues, we will suspend blogs or blog posts for the following types of abuse:

  • Personal threats and revealing of personal information
  • Calls to violence
  • Impersonation of a private person
  • Accusations that can be proven wrong (for example wrongfully calling someone a convicted felon)

Under freedom of speech WordPress is even more instructive. It states: โ€œThe team behind WordPress.com strongly believes in freedom of speech. Our service is designed to let internet users freely express any ideas and opinions without us censoring or endorsing them. We think this has led to many great blogs being published on WordPress.com. However, you may also find the occasional blog that offends you. It might offend us as well, but while we are strict about shutting down blogs that violate our terms of service (no spam, personal threats, incitement of violence, etc), we will not shut down blogs because they are offensive. We think the right response to bad or offensive ideas is to speak out against them, not to censor them.โ€

In this regard, Barbados Underground should rise to the occasion and hold itself up as the example for all to see and follow because it has stuck within the boundaries of the terms of service of WordPress. Obviously, contributors, without any idea of the law or terms of service were able to gauge what was reasonable and acceptable.

As for the operators of blogs like David who may feel that they may be the target of a law suit in the event that an anonymous blogger defames somebody. If we take the cue from Google, Davidโ€™s only legal duty is to release the name of the offender so long as it can be established that an actionable offence has been committed. As a matter of fact, there is nothing wrong with BU adopting a policy to disclose in such circumstances because we cannot be seen as harbouring wrongdoers. To reinforce what I said earlier, it must be established that an โ€œactionable wrongโ€ was committed before an identity is released.

The courts are certainly championing the cause of freedom of speech and the protection of individual rights. Furthermore, a lot more is recognised and settled in law than we realise and we should seek to familiarise ourselves or be taken advantage of by those who would seek to abuse.


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165 responses to “Google Court Decision Guarantees Public Protection On The Internet”


  1. Lie #1: This defamatory exposition followed a long period of time where bloggers using BU were harassed, threatened and bullied to stop commenting on BU.

    Please provide proof of the above statement

    Lie #2: It is a very important point because all along, BFP have been insinuating that BU commenters are without quality and that the BFP blog is superior.

    Please provide proof of the above statement.


  2. Rok; A very good introduction to a very important matter. I hope that anon-legal or some other legal commenter will expand on a number of areas you touched on.

    From your article it would appear that the Blog Owner/editor is not liable for any slander published on his blog by someone other than himself. He has merely to unmask the offending writer.

    But what about the writers who say scurrilous things about identifiable personages? What about the blog owner/editor who himself extends a scurrilous comment by one of the commentators on his blog? Does he have to unmask himself in such a case?

    What about the examples of the numerous comments by others in support of and attempting to concretize Hartley Henry’s “revelation” of non-standard lifestyles of certain editors of the Nation Newspaper? Does the BU editor have to unmask these persons?

    Names have been mentioned freely on Blogs, including this one. Is the bottom line now that this must stop forthwith and the commenters must police themselves or face the possibility of court action?


  3. @Ebenezer
    The proof is on the public record.

    @Check it out
    It would be the responsibility of WordPress.com to identify the blog owner as far as I can see. wordpress operates the platform and is to the blog owner what the owner is to the blogger, provided that the owner is not anonymous in the latter case.

    If the blog owner is anonymous, it would seem to me that you would have to get wordpress to identify either the owner or the blogger.

    Personally, I think the blog owner has nothing to fear if their anonymity is revealed so long as he/she has not done anything wrong.

    What seems to be the practice is to get an attorney and let the attorney appear representing the “Anonymous” blog owner or blogger.

    In the Google case the summons was issued to the anonymous blogger through Google by e-mail. It would seem that the court does not require anonymity to be revealed unless or until it has made a determination that there is a case for the anonymous person to answer.


  4. @Ebenezer
    “The proof is on the public record.”

    ROK, is this the best you can do? Do your interpretations or perceptions make something a reality?
    Here’s something else for you to think about. Moderation, and in some cases, deletion is being practiced on this blog. That would clearly put David in the position of “being in control” of this blog. One could easily say that through moderation and deletion, David is manipulating content. If in fact this assertion were true: “This defamatory exposition followed a long period of time where bloggers using BU were harassed, threatened and bullied to stop commenting on BU”‘ which it is not, then David would be guilty of allowing that “harassment, threats and bullying” to take place.


  5. Good article ROK. Ignore the BFP operatives who want us to provide proof to them, of this, that and the other. I guess the truth rankles.


  6. As usual Pat, your post is meaningless in that it imparts no information in support of allegations. If you can’t provide proof of allegations then that is all they will ever be, allegations.
    “Truth” is only truth when supported by facts.

    My previous post is being held for “moderation” which only proves my point. David has control of and manipulation of content of this blog and therefore is responsible for any perceived threats, harassment and bullying, if in fact they exist.


  7. This post has truly been an eye opener. Even though there is a lot to digest, it all comes down to knowing where to draw the line in the sand.


  8. @ ROK
    You said, quote……”A good guideline for blogging can be found in the wordpress.com policy on abuse and freedom of speech. Under abuse, wordpress states: In addition to spam and copyright issues, we will suspend blogs or blog posts for the following types of abuse:

    1)Personal threats and revealing of personal information
    2)Calls to violence
    3)Impersonation of a private person
    4)Accusations that can be proven wrong (for example wrongfully calling someone a convicted felon)”

    I ask….. So what heading do we place the following statement by Negroman?
    Can we safely put it under heading #2 as above?
    I refer to his comment:- quote,”Negroman // August 7, 2009 at 10:27 AM
    Rok if it is war the white bastards want it is war they will get.I am prepare to make the ultimate sacrifice.No stinking,killing,smelly disease ridden white trash for a human being could never come into Barbados and threaten me or any Black Barbadian and get away with it.Let us start the revolution.”
    Is this poster, Negroman, inciting to violence or not? Seems to me like he is!


  9. @RH
    “So what heading do we place the following statement by Negroman?”

    Non of the above for the following reasons:
    1. No personal information was revealed;
    2. There was no call to violence;
    3. There was no impersonation;
    4. Nobody accused anybody of anything.

    I sincerely hope you did not take the use of the word war to mean a call to violence??

    We wage war on the cricket field. Remember Brian Close and Michael Holding? Remember the tied tests? I see Ambrose being referred to as the raging bull.

    War is also waged in political campaigns.

    Many a battle is fought in the courtroom.

    We fought against C&W before the FTC in 2005 and won. I have not seen a single drop of blood spilled or flesh torn.

    Context is everything. Don’t go getting paranoid on me now.


  10. @Scrouge

    “ROK, is this the best you can do? Do your interpretations or perceptions make something a reality?”

    Isn’t the same true for you?


  11. @Scrouge

    If you say that my assertion is not true, then David is not guilty of allowing anything.

    Your perception!

    However, David is father to his children only, provided he has children. If you read the above post, it implies that every person who posts is responsible for their content. That is why I am advocating that anybody who has a blog should make it a policy to release the identity of a person committing a wrong without any hesitation at all. The blog owner is clearly not responsible for your content.

    See that in the Google case, it was the person committing the wrong that had a case to answer, not google.

    So all of you here posting by anonymous handles and think you are putting BU in trouble, think again… and if David removes a post because he thinks it contravenes the terms of service, he is doing the blogger a big favour.


  12. Dave, why do I get the perception that you’re ‘going for the jugular’!!

    Lord!!


  13. ROK, this is an excellent exposition. Clear and well considered. However, you would do well to listen to the wise words of Pat and simply ignore the BFP comments from one “Ebenezer” (funny, I thought that the name was spelled “Ebeneezer”) and his (or her – the spelling has me confused) clear agenda.

    I do question one statement made and that relates to the liability, or not, of the blog owners.

    If you consider that in the world of traditional publishing the author and the publisher can sometimes BOTH be liable for a libel, then you have to also consider that the same may become true for bloggers and blog owners.

    Having said that, however, the same elements of publication do not exist, in that if you take a book to a publisher, they have the chance to read it, submit it to their legal department for an opinion on any problem areas. And they can then send it back to you for changes, if so advised and refuse to publish it if you do not follow their advice.

    The volume of material on the internet makes such a process impossible when dealing with blogs. So the traditional approach to this aspect is unlikely to be used. The courts have to break new ground.

    And it is right that they should break new ground. No one has tested it yet, to my knowledge, but what happens when bloggers write exposing the exceses of repressive regimes? Are the Courts going to force people like wordpress to reveal the names of the contributors at the suit of the repressive regime in question?

    These rules are in their infancy and are likely to create a whole new area of legal specialty and study.

    ROK, your guidelines are, for the moment, correct and approriate. However, I think you would agree that this is a fast-shifting issue and we have to keep our eyes on it, since developments will now be quite rapid and on a global level.

    For legal people, the avoidance of getting caught up, will be reasonably straightforward. However, for the man-in-the-street, possibly the best guideline to follow is that when you write, you do so with an absence of malice.

    All rights must be protected and in order to protect the right accorded us by BU, we need go no further than following to the policies of WordPress itself. That is not too difficult at all. And, if followed, WordPress will clearly protect its blog owners and their contributors.


  14. @Anon

    Very reasonable comments. I like your interjection in respect of “repressive regimes”.

    I think that there is the tendency of the courts to be lenient in matters like that. If you are a lawyer you would know that the golden rule is when you come to equity, come with clean hands. I therefore doubt that identities will be released in those circumstances.

    Rather than shifting though, I would say developing. Shifting tends to connote that an established rule may be reversed or altered at any time. Law tends to deal with certainty and in this regard I would prefer to say developing.


  15. ROK, did u get up so early to see what I’d had to say?!! – I’m truly honoured!!

    Laaaaaaadddddddddddddd!!

    My golden-slithers of undeniable wisdom!!

    D devil in me dis marnin!! ๐Ÿ™‚


  16. I know dat gun get me a cussing from some quarter or udda!!

    Lord!!


  17. Dave, congrats on the new pics! Very nice and clear! Sorry u had to remove my darling Rihanna’s quite so soon!!


  18. @ROK, I think you should have a good look at what anonymity means. It means not knowing in various degrees (lawyers may add some). A pseudonym or ‘handle’ does not necessarily convey anonymity. That seems clear by people’s attempts to deduce who is an author despite a handle used and its being changed.

    The next issue then has to be how someone proves who someone is, or who is the author. That is very difficult (nearly impossible) in the electronic age. You may find the location of the computer, or the location of the posting, but can you say categorically who wrote something in an electronic medium, even if that item comes with an identified name? “David” could be the name used by many, as could “ROK”.

    If a blogger has to give an email address or IP address, those too do not prove anybody’s identity. Each can be changed without much difficulty; IP addresses can change themselves with no action taken by a user.

    There is not a lot that is being disclosed with an e-mail address.

    Also, the link to the Google decision was not provided. Do you have that or are you reading a printed copy of the actual decision?


  19. @David, reading again your ‘open letter’:’
    David // August 25, 2009 at 4:32 AM
    @BU family
    We truly regret we have had to disable the email notification on BU. We have a commenter who has intimated legal action and we have decided to batten the hatches and be prepared for whatever comes our way. The BU family would have observed we get several hundred comments in a day which are routinely posted to BU. Along with the comments we get additional email from BU family members and friends which we welcome.’

    IS E-MAIL NOTIFICATION WORKING AGAIN? THAT MAY BE OF CONCERN TO SOME, AS IT RELATES TO THE SUPPLY OF E-MAIL ADDRESSES ON THE BLOG.

    This is not stated as a general policy of the blog and it is clear that it is being operated only partially. Perhaps there is a need to explain why, technically, that may be the case, and if there are issues other than technical ones that are under consideration.

    Also, looking at your comment on that same post:
    ‘David // August 26, 2009 at 6:34 PM
    @Adrian
    One of your comments went to the spam queue and was inadvertently deleted, sorry about that and please repost if you can.

    To your question earlier about a threat to BU, we prefer not to discuss the matter in any detail. in fact the matter has become rather boring. We urge the BU family to focus on the other topics which can serve to educate the Bajan blogosphere.

    Be assured this blog is being followed with interest by many, referring to the topic and not the sidebar. The BU household gives the assurance to the family no foreigner will stop this show.’

    Given that ROK is not a foreigner can the dots be joined that point to a Bajan? It may seem illogical but as Chris Halsall might say, until it is disproved it remains a likelihood.

    Regarding my point above about knowing anything about the authorship, I point you to an astute observation by those nice people at PDC, who also commented on the open letter: ‘We say this because it will be difficult to actually prove that a particular real person or the blogger did in fact write or allow defamatory material, say, on this BU blog.’


  20. Another very clear example of the ROK spin: “I sincerely hope you did not take the use of the word war to mean a call to violence??”

    Your perception of what was meant by this statement of Negroman’s, is just that, your perception. My perception and I dare say the perception of others, of the above statement is a call for violence and civil disobedience.

    ROK, do not pretend to know what others mean.


  21. @ROK. I have no problem with you using “develop” rather than “shift”. It is a question of taste and it is your article and your call on something like that, so I defer to you.

    I do respectfully submit, however, that “shift” is not entirely inapproriate as there are likely to be some reversals as matters develop. However, for the moment, you are probably right not to anticipate these.

    Anyway, it is an excellent piece of work on your part and you deserve thanks and commendation. All I would suggest you stress – and very heavily – is the absence of malice. It is almost impossible to prove defamation in the absence of malice.

    There is one other point I would ask that all consider. That of making apologies for defamatory statements with the same prominence as the defamation itself was made.

    Only someone of true stature will apologise – the weak and those of little merit are too busy bolstering their sorry little egos and feeding their pathgetic manias to do that. So, if anyone sees that they have defamed another, simply apologise and any cause of action is considerably weakened if not erradicated as a result.

    In my view, that is the problem with BFP. It is run, supported and administered by cowards of no merit. They report that, as a result of the demands of WordPress, they have removed the offending blog about you, ROK. But nowhere have they had the courage and grace and manners to tender their apologies to you personally or to BANGO for their disgusting slanders.

    This lack of courtesy illustrates clearly that they are not worth spit and they ought to be pointed out as examples NOT to follow, rather than as protectors of anyone’s liberty and freedom of speech. Can anyone seriously think that their liberties and freedom of speech is enhanced or protected by those jokers? If they enjoyed any credibility (which, in my view, they have sacrificed irrevokably) or any power over the minds of Bajans, they would seek to create anarchy in a second.

    Let us discpline them by refusing to visit their website. If economic sanctions work on countries, think how easily they will work on nothings like BFP.

    So finally, whether an anonymous blogger can be traced or discovered or not, is of no consequence at all. Anonymity is our right – we have to decide individually if we are going to abuse it and use it as a shield to hide behind to defame blameless people, or whether we are going to be responsible and ensure that our facts are right and use our anonymity as a means of avoiding frivilous litigation from people whom we have, truthfully and for the public good, exposed.

    It really boils down to character and broughtupsy.


  22. Why should it matter what colour anonymous bloggers or people are


  23. It could easily be argued that Mr. King did not take even the most miniscule attempts to protect himself on the internet. Most of us are aware that on blogs of this nature, there is nothing to be gained and a great deal to lose by revealing too much personal information. Most of us know that it is prudent to keep a clear delineation between our personal selves on line and our professional lives in the real world. Surprisingly, Mr. King did nothing to protect himself and it could easily be argued that through his own negligence, he left himself exposed.
    There are instances, where an individual must put aside the desire to use “personal experience” to support an opinion or view because it would not be wise to do so.


  24. @Anon

    Good comments. You are perfectly correct that an absence of malice is important and can go a long way.

    Second, again you are perfectly correct about an apology mitigating the circumstances, especially where there is an absence of malice.

    Note that in contrast one Rickey George wants to discuss how he could be anonymous and get away clean. There are just some people that cannot steer their minds away from wickedness.

    I will not discuss that with him though because according to him, if the use of a computer was traced to his home, he would allow his wife or children to take the fall rather than own up as a man…

    But as you say, it boils down to character and broughtupsy. All I would do is let him know that the law has a way of dealing with such matters.


  25. @ Ebenezer

    I would like to ask you this questionโ€ฆ During the time you have been making comments on BU, have you found anything good about BU? If so, would you care to share what it is.

    On the other hand if you have not, what is it that leads you to make that determination?

    Thanks.


  26. ROK, could you kindly show where Rickey George made this statement? :

    I will not discuss that with him though because “according to him, if the use of a computer was traced to his home, he would allow his wife or children to take the fall rather than own up as a manโ€ฆ”

    Once again ROK, you have made a completely false statement. ROK, instead of inserting your foot in your mouth, think before typing.


  27. Aint ROK funny?
    He said that he doesnt respond to anonymice, but when Anon writes to lick his ass, he is happy to respond.

    Thats what what ROK wants. To be seen and heard and reverred. But he has no respect for those who are more knowledgeable or logical than he is.


  28. Thanks to all who have contributed to starting what is an important debate. As many commenters have alluded to this is an issue which is very fluid, and legal positions taken now may in all likelihood change going forward. What we know for sure, the Court is the ultimate arbiter.

    What the BU family is attempting to do is to establish a protocol of sort to manage expectation to commenting on BU. It may not translate to any tedious comment policy but more as a guide to manage expectations of BU family and friends. Anon refers to it in simple terms as broughtupsy.

    We will continue to follow the discussion with interest, and as we have done in the past accept and integrate feedback in whatever form as part of the process. We may make mistakes from time to time especially when responding to matters which strike an emotional chord. In this regard Anon has correctly advised there is no harm in saying sorry and let the discussion move on.

    A word to our detractors: You are entitled to your views and while we may not agree we will not stop you from sharing those views with the BU family, unless we detect malice or mischief. In such cases the BU household will continue to use our best judgment to maintain the integrity of the blog.


  29. @ROK // September 15, 2009 at 12:29 AM

    @RH

    Oh for crying out loud, ROK! Is this the best you can do? A man of your substance and calibre, I expected better.

    What about the use of the words, quote…..”I am prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice”. What do we generally understand by such a statement. Most people take that to mean that one is prepared to die for a cause whatever it may be. Right or wrong, Rok?
    What about this one,quote……”let us start the revolution”? Is that a normal everyday statement in Bajanese?
    You see, ROK, we have to understand that not everyone that may read these statements here would have complete control of their intellect. We are well aware that there are very many hotheads and radicals amongst us who can not or will not want to understand those statements as you so loftily explained them away. There are some, regardless of their skin pigmentation, who would just take these statements at their face value and would try to act accordingly.
    So wheel and come again, my friend. I think perhaps you may be trying to defend the undefendable.
    Of course, I hope you do not get all hot under the collar now. Far as I am concerned this is all a matter of the “cut & thrust” of normal debate. :>))
    As always, we can agree to disagree.

    I must commend you on the article, however.


  30. ROK
    in moderating a posting made by a blogger, a simple word added or subtracted could made a whole lot of difference. plus the fact that some-one else can alter a posting means that even though the posting is accredited to a particular blogger, that blogger was not responsible for the final article posted. How then can the blogger be charged for the particular posting?


  31. @Anon and ROK

    However, for the man-in-the-street, possibly the best guideline to follow is that when you write, you do so with an absence of malice.

    The above could be misleading to the man-in-the-street. What are your thoughts on the following comments?

    Fighting Slander by Nicholas Carroll

    “Malice”
    “Malice” is a poor choice of words. When you’re talking about defamation, “malice” doesn’t refer to whether someone had a grude against you. Legally — when describing defamation — it means that they knew, or had a resonable suspicion, that they said or printed about you was not true.

    So when you’re dealing with defamation, you always have to rephrase the word malice as: they lied, or knew they were repeating a lie, or at least suspected they were repeating a lie.

    You don’t have to prove malice to win a lawsuit for defamation — though it helps.
    On the other hand, proving malice definitely help win a defamation lawsuit, even if there was no falsehood. Remember: injury to a person or organization’s reputation.


  32. @Adrian Hinds et al…

    My personal guidance is to never say, write or do anything that you’re not prepared to say and/or defend under oath in a court of law.

    And always be prepared to admit that you are wrong.

    And always be prepared to apologise if you are….


  33. The Scout says, “Your task is not easy but if the coaching by Mr. Barrow was taken in, you would be able to deal with the situation”.

    Scout you must be joking. You mean to me that you did not know that Barrow had no time for Thompson. Had Barrow had a hand in selecting his successor in St. John it would not have been Thompson.

    Barrow frequently referred to Thompson as a “little whipper snapper” and never trusted him. Barrow had favoured David Comissiong all the way.

    I am in agreement with Alex, there is definitely a leadership crisis reemerging within the DLP and it is festering from an old wound that did not heal coming out of the last political war between Thompson and Mascoll. We must never forget the political blood that was shed and the collateral damage that was claim in the cause of a โ€œThompson comebackโ€.

    Barbadians would be foolhardy to think that the deep wounds received by Kellman, Freundel and Estwick would be forgiven so easily overnight. Can Thompson forgive and forget the public statements made by these three gentlemen? Who can remember that call-in programme when Estwick took the elders of the DLP to task for the underhand deeds in instigating Thompsonโ€™s return? Who remembers the disparaging comments made about Thompson in a flyer reportedly prepared by Stuart for the Partyโ€™s 50th Annual Conference? And who can forget the open warfare that was displayed both in Parliament and the outside of Parliament between Thompson and Kellman?

    Thompsonโ€™s poor management of the economy and his inability to control his love for Parris and Clico has reopened some old wounds. His management of the economy has placed Estwick in a position where he is now too shame to speak to issues of the economy. His social programmes that can be describe as nothing more than โ€œsoot kitchen and begging bowlโ€ politics must be a source of concern to Stuart.

    The reality of the political atmosphere in Barbados is that the DLP is like a volcano waiting to erupt. The patience of the electorate is running thin in the manner in which the economy is being managed.


  34. @CHECKIT-OUT
    “ROK – A very good introduction to a very important matter. I hope that anon-legal or some other legal commenter will expand on a number of areas you touched on…”

    It was back in 1840 that Baron Parke coined the classic definition: ‘a false statement of fact that holds the plaintiff up to ridicule, hatred and contempt among right thinking members of society generally’.

    If a newspaper, BLOG* or magazine genuinely makes a simple factual mistake and commits what the law calls ‘unintentional defamation’, then the issue cannot be construed as malevolent. You can write to the publisher quoting the 1952 Defamation Act (one of the few instances of libel law reform) and assert your right to demand a retraction or a full factual apology.

    In late November 1994, Lord Mackay, the Lord Chancellor, announced that he intended to introduce legislation, based upon recommendations 2 years earlier by a working group headed by Lord Justice Neill, for a faster and cheaper system to deal with small libel and slander cases. Sadly, this domain of the common law remains a highly expensive undertaking where lawyers charge exorbitant sums of money and legal aid is not within reach of the common man.

    The case law on libel & slander is a mine field and in the next post I will present the Law Lord’s ruling on a 1979 case which set the precedent for cases of this nature although issues regarding privacy, anonymity and strict liability issues in the blogosphere is frothed with “weird science”…


  35. The most prominent case in the common law amongst the many statues on record is the House of Lords ruling –

    R v Lemon; R v Gay News Ltd [1979]
    All ER 898….

    This piece of case law is very interesting indeed…

    The Gay News – a homosexual newspaper published in June 1976 a poem by Professor James Kirkup entitled ‘ The love that Dares to Speak its Nature’ and accompanied by a drawing illustrating its subject matter.

    The poem purports to describe in explicit detail acts of sodomy and fellatio with the body of Christ immediately after His death and to ascribe to Him during His lifetime promiscuous homosexual practices with the Apostles and other men.

    The issue in this appeal is not whether the words and drawing are blasphemous. The jury, though only by a majority of ten to two, have found them so. As expressed in the charge against them they ‘vilify Christ in his life and His crucifixion’, and do so in terms that are likely to arouse a sense of outrage among those who believe in or respect the Christian faith and are not homosexuals and probably among many of them that are. The only question in this appeal is whether 1n 1976 the mental element or mens rea in the common law offence of blasphemy is satisfied by proof only of an intention to publish material which in the opinion of the jury is likely to shock and arouse resentment among believing Christians or whether the prosecution must go further and prove that the accused in publishing the material in fact intended to produce that effect on believers, or (what comes to the same thing in criminal law) although aware of the likelihood that such effect might be produced, did not care whether it was or not, so long as the publication achieved some other purpose that constituted his motive for publishing it. (Ref: Lord Diplock (dissenting)…

    cont’d…………..

    My Lords, if your Lordships were to hold that Lord Coleridge CJ and those judges who preceded and followed him in directing juries that the accused’s intention to shock and arouse resentment among believing Christians was a necessary element in the offence of blasphemous libel were wrong in doing so, this would effectively exclude that particular offence from the benefit of Parliament’s general substitution of the subjective for the objective test in applying the presumption that a man intends the natural consequences of his acts; and blasphemous libel would revert to the category of crimes of strict liability from which, on what is, to say the least, a plausible analysis of the contemporaneous authorities, it appeared to have escaped nearly a century ago. This would, in my view, be a retrograde step which could not be justified by any considerations of public policy.

    The usual justification for creating by statute a criminal offence of strict liability, in which the prosecution need not prove mens rea as to one of the elements of the actus reus, is the threat that the actus reus of the offense poses to public health, public safety, public morals or public order. The very fact that there have been no prosecutions for blasphemous libel for more than fifty years is sufficient to dispose of any suggestion that in modern times a judicial decision to include this common law offence in this exceptional class of offences of strict liability could be justified on grounds of public moral or public order….


  36. Cont’d

    VISCOUNT DILHORNE:
    In the light of the authorities to which I have referred and for the reasons I have stated, I am unable to reach the conclusion that the ingredients of the offence of publishing a blasphemous libel have changed since 1792. Indeed, it would, I think, be surprising if they had. If it be accepted, as I think it must that that which it is sought to prevent is the publication of blasphemous libels, the harm is done by their intentional publication, whether or not the publisher intended to blaspheme. To hold that it must be proved that he had that intent appear to me to be going some way to making the accuse judge in his own cause. If Mr. Lemon had testified that he did not regard the poem and drawing as blasphemous, that he had no intention to blaspheme, and it might be, that his intention was to promote the love and affection of some homosexuals for our Lord, the jury properly directed would surely have been told that unless satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that he intended to blaspheme they should acquit, no matter how blasphemous they thought the publication. Whether or not they would have done so on such evidence is a matter of speculation on which views may differ.

    The question we have to decide is a pure question of law and my conclusions thereon do not, I hope, evince any distrust of juries. The question here is what is the proper direction to give to them, not how they might act on such direction; and distrust, which I do not have, of the way a jury might act, does not enter it.

    My Lords, for the reasons I have stated in my opinion the question certified should be answered in the affirmative. Guilt of the offence of publishing a blasphemous libel does not depend on the accused having an intent to blaspheme but on proof that the publication was intentional (or, in the case of a bookseller, negligent (Lord Campbell’s Libel Act 1843) ) and that the matter published was blasphemous. I would dismiss the appeal

    Appeal dismissed.

    Statutory offences – most crimes which impose strict liability are the product of statute. Some statutes are quite clear in this regards.


  37. @David, “A word to our detractors: You are entitled to your views and while we may not agree we will not stop you from sharing those views with the BU family, unless we detect malice or mischief. In such cases the BU household will continue to use our best judgment to maintain the integrity of the blog.”

    It goes without saying that ‘detractors’ are entitled to their views; all are. What is important is the manner in which dissenting views are handled. If you detect ‘negative energy’ then a jugement has to be made if that is more powerful than what you view as ‘positive energy’.

    Discussion cannot have much value if it is all about everyone agreeing. Counter positions need to be addressed. Not as the views of persons and personalities–and sadly some cannot seem to deal with an issue irrespective of alluding to a personality. As they say, one needs to deal with institutions–and in the Caribbean, we are perhaps not good at seeing a structure as different from the persons within it.

    Glad that you are prepared in word to let debate flow.

    More important, is for those who feel that by dodging the substance they have moved a point. It’s not so. Convincing people is about swaying minds with arguments, not waving a flag and saying “we done”.

    Would you, at least for the benefit of me, clarify the points made about e-mail notification (it has legal implications, and one can look at the Google case to see why).


  38. David you have a powerful tool in BU. Do not be taken in by ricky george. Then again you know what he is all about. ๐Ÿ™‚


  39. Anon
    For a man who would refer to P.M Thompson as a “little whipper snapper” as then transfer his entire law practice to him, some-one would have to be out of their mind. I was told by many residence from St. John that Mr Barrow is who introduced Mr Thompson to them as the one to succeed him. Unless you are from St.John and know more than me and other St.john voters, then I don’t listen to that crap.


  40. Anon
    There are cracks in both parties, the difference is that the DLP cracks are on the mend, while the BLP cracks are now breaking open having been under stress for a long time. Remember, if Henry Forde even thought that Erskine Sandiford was going to do what he did, Owen Arthur would have never been P.M. Also there are prominent members of the BLP that wasn’t too keen on a “rumshop man’s son” becoming Prime Minister under a BLP banner. That had plagued Arthur for many years and was tested by the then “power puff girls”; ask the one that got burnt. What about the alleged battle for leadership after losing government? That crack is widening, ironically, the only one capable of mending that crack is the same rumshop man son. Mia would like to flood the BLP with negrocrats since many of them were ashame of the road Arthur was taking the party in the early stages. One of those few “down to earth” that Mia didn’t and still don’t like is M.P Rawle Eastmond, one of the most honest politicians on the BLP platform.


  41. @RH
    I am not going to defend what Negroman wrote. He is quite capable of representing himself.

    All I can say to you is that I did not see his remarks in light of going our there to kill or get into any kind of violence.

    RH man, you taking me back to school. I learned in school, for example, that war terminology is applied to politics and elections. Take the word campaign. It is a military term but we speak of an election campaign. This word is now in the civil domain because we speak of PR campaigns, clean up campaigns, etc.

    In politics we talk about rallying troops. Did you think that meant uniformed military troops?

    So what is the “ultimate sacrifice”? It may mean that I am willing to pay, it may mean that I am willing to take the fall. It may mean that I am willing to go forward and in Negroman’s case it may mean that he is willing to make his identity know to prove a point.

    It has to do with the context. Take for example I told somebody that I will get them because of possible defamatory remarks. That person went on a convenient rampage because I used those words.

    Nevertheless, I think I showed what I meant when I lodged a complaint against BFP for defaming me and got action. Now that person would still want to make others believe that I threatened them with violence when in truth and in fact, my statement was a warning which they continued to ignore.

    As African people we are threatened, acted against, caused to make serious personal sacrifices by those who would not accept the same treatment from me and would call the police for me or take me to court in a flash.

    Jack Bowman called me an amateur pornographer, which is really damaging, but people like Bimbro who I feel is on the take from BFP want to make it seem that Jack Bowman was innocent and that I did all the wrong, when in truth and in fact, my statement was not a threat but his was damaging to me. So I is the jack ass and he is the jack, right?

    Now you will see that when it comes to those kinds of things I stop talking and act. I do not make sport when it comes to these things. I do not take bullying tactics lightly and I called it… but those who feel that we are the scum and that we are an easy walk over, will take a jack bowman position while they continue to do the bullying.

    Now when people tell me that colour has nothing to do with it, I can only smile because these are the tactics employed by the white oppressors and they employ them because they think we are idiots and know nothing about the law.

    I like being considered an idiot because it gives me the upperhand. Up to now, BFP has not the slightest clue about who I am. You see what Rickey George writing about the identity of anonymous handles? That you can’t be sure about identity even if I have an IP address? You leave him alone.


  42. @Scout

    “in moderating a posting made by a blogger, a simple word added or subtracted could made a whole lot of difference.”

    Good point. There is a definition of moderating which does not include censorship. Moderation is when a post is held so that it can be reviewed and if you don’t like the post you discard it in its entirety. I agree that in moderation some may not stick to the rules.

    A blog owner who does not moderate do not have that problem. However, if you as the blogger can show that what was posted is not what you wrote at the time, then that is a different matter.

    If however, the blog owner could prove that there was no tampering with the submission, then you can sign hymn a ton. Here is where a blog which has a policy and reputation of no moderation, runs safely.

    Good point though Scout.


  43. @David

    Don’t let anybody push you into moderating views or handling dissenting views. That is a trap. If BU has a position then OK. If not, no dissenting views have to be handled or even addressed. It is an open forum and if any member of the forum wants to address it then so be it, but you have no such duty as blog owner.

    As a matter of fact, if you find that a post is offensive and want to remove it, just delete the text of the message and post it with another message saying, “This post was removed because it breached of the Terms of Service of WordPress.com.” End of story.


  44. @Adrian et al

    We have to thank you (BU family and friends).

    BU is only the conduit to facilitate this experience.


  45. @AH

    “The above could be misleading to the man-in-the-street.”

    Not at all. Note that your author said that it helps if it is without malice. The problem with malice is that inevitably you lose. Without malice you stand a better chance and more of a likelihood that you will not defame.

    We dealing with mindset at the time of the act. The difference between being cool, clam and collective and vexed to the point where you would say things that you don’t mean and would not have said if you were cool.


  46. @ Anon,

    Thanks for that good advice re malice and following through with an apology where malice can be implied.

    It is nice to have you back.

    We have to watch what we say to ‘detractors’ like the Ebenezer and Rickey George. Rickey George thinks that ROK is gloating now, but in his words, has opened Pandora’s box, which now cannot be closed. He thinks BU and ROK will live to regret it (having wordpress.com remove the BFP post). I say watch this penny, as he is only here fishing for us to lose our tempers, he and the Scrooge, so they can have something to hold over our heads.


  47. Is that what I’m doing Pat? Gee, thanks for letting me know.

    Btw, if BWWR thought she/he was fooling anyone with the “Anon” moniker, he/she was wrong.


  48. @Pat

    I am surely not gloating; at least there is no mens rea to that effect. What I would say is if it serves as an example to help people understand that they need to stand up and speak up and don’t be intimidated, especially when they know that they are exercising their rights, then I am happy.


  49. @Pat

    “He thinks BU and ROK will live to regret it (having wordpress.com remove the BFP post).”

    Malice aforethought never does the right thing.


  50. There seem to be two Anon’s at work here. This one (me) is responsible for the comments made at: September 15, 2009 at 4:24 AM and September 15, 2009 at 7:29 AM. I am not the author of the post of September 15, 2009 at 12:50 PM. Quite apart from the fact that I am an admirer of Mr Thompson, I would never be so disrespectful as to refer to anyone who holds the office of Prime Minister by the will of the majority of my fellow Bajans as being a “little whipper snapper”, just because an excellent Prime Minister from a long-gone era (Mr Barrow) is alleged to have done so at a time that Mr Thompson was not himself the PM. I daresay Mr Barrow probably made the same or similar remark about Tom Adams as well.

    Mr Barrow was a man of his time, just as Mr Thompson is a man of his – and only history can accurately judge either of them.

    I do notice with some amusement that whenever BFP and its supporters suffer from negative comments, they always blame BWWR. Poor old girl has probably gone to her eternal rest or may be ill and cannot participate. I cannot see that there are any other viable reasons for her silence. However, she has cast a long shadow in the blogosphere, at least in the perception of the BFP cartel. She must have given them a hell of a beating up. But, if memory serves, BWWR rarely commented on anything except that protracted Kingsland matter. The inescapable conclusion, therefore, is that those who now seek to cast me in the role of the old lady (Ebenezer // September 15, 2009 at 8:07 PM) are connected to that Kingsland issue AND to the BFP management, since their comment seeks to deflect attention from the fact that BFP isn’t worth spit and its owners have no broughtupsy. There is no confusion about my gender, by the way. I am male. And I don’t wear dresses. Enough of that red herring.

    Mr Blackett, may I most respectfully suggest, Sir, that your very interesting argument and information lacks commentary from you that us understandable to the non-legal layman. It is fine for people like myself who know the case, but it is very heavy reading for the layman.

    Having said that, may I also suggest, with the utmost respect, that a case from 1979 in the jurisdiction and under the laws of England and Wales, is not greatly relevant to 30 years later in a time of the Internet on a global basis.

    We all have to bear in mind that defamation legislation varies from country to country. In some countries, for example, a deceased person cannot be defamed, while in others a cause of action can exist for the defamation of a deceased person. This is just to illustrate my point.

    30 years ago, for any of us to have instant access, we needed a telex machine. The first faxes had indeed been launched – they were launched in about 1975-76. However, it took a greart deal of time to send even one page – it was rotated in a drum and all kinds of noisy things happened to it, before it was sent. Very few people could be bothered to use them and they really did not gain any kind of popularity until the mid-80s.

    But faxes and telexes could disseminate (read “publish”) information to only one party at a time. The Internet can disseminate information to billions with the flick of a switch – a situation not even contemplated by Their Lordships in the case you have cited.

    We cannot go to cases and circumstances like the one you cite as a means of formulating international defamation accords for the Internet. They don’t even really provide much guidance in the circumstances that we face. What we have to do it to address the needs created by the Internet.

    Respectfully, the case you cite singularly fails to do this.

    Pat, a pleasure as always. I was susprised that you welcomed me back, because I have been commenting all along, particularly on this issue of internet defamation. It is one that we need to address seriously. However, we cannot address it in the usual dry, legal manner – as it is not solely the province of the dry, legal profession this time. It has to be addressed and legislation formulated from the point of view of the man (or woman)-in-the-street.

    In this, ROK has led the way with a significant contribution and we ought to do as David suggests (if not says outright) and not be sidetracked by partisan politics and BFP toadies.

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