Submitted by Yardbroom

Recently a Barbados Government Official said that slaves and their masters travelled the Atlantic to Barbados on the same ship – or words to that effect – in essence they had the same experience; he was castigated…some would say with good reason. I understood what the official wanted to say, but he put it so clumsily that the message was lost.  There was interference in transmission; as a result the message’s deeper meaning was sidelined into a tributary of sand.

That we – whites and blacks – came from different lands and have found ourselves on the same rock is true.  That we should try to accommodate each other, and try as best as we can to make Barbados a better place in the 21st century is also true.  That we should be able to debate or discuss slavery without seeing a slave master in every white face is also true.  However, it should also be true that the interaction between whites and blacks in Barbados should not be a few rounds above a slavery relationship; and blacks should not be seen as slaves in remission.

Slavery should not be an unmentionable word; we will only have put the demon of slavery to rest when the issue can be freely discussed.  You cannot dismiss “history” as if it never happened, there is no reason to be uncomfortable about it.  One of the reasons why slavery is not openly discussed in Barbados is simply because some of us have not mentally adjusted to the transition.  We like to think we have, but honestly we have not.

Some white Barbadians often say, “why have we got to harp back to slavery, why can’t we move on?”  Some black Barbadians do not want to be reminded that their foreparents were slaves; the memories are still raw and do not sit comfortable with the middle class professional status, and in some cases wealth.

You can acknowledge the elephant in the room or pretend it is not there, but ever so often it will trumpet and you have to notice its presence…perhaps at an inconvenient time.  Or you can acknowledge its presence even feed it a few green leaves, and there will be harmony of mind and body.

I find it rather surprising that some religious black Barbadians say they don’t want to be “reminded” of slavery because of the suffering of black people; and yet they do not mind being constantly “reminded” of the crucifixion of Christ on the cross, because his suffering, strengthens their faith.  Remembrance has not always got to be painful, it can give cause for “reflection” and strengthen us mentally.

Now the Government official again, it would be arrogant of me to suggest that he did not know what he was talking about…he surely did, perhaps the message was not quite clear.  The people who travelled to Barbados in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries were in different categories.  There were a few who did not even travel, they allowed agents to do that but their fingers were still in the pie; as many grand country houses in England can testify.  They were investors, looking for a good return on their capital investment.  Then there were landowners, planters, indentured labourers/servants, slaves, Christians and many others too numerous to mention here.  The only method of transport was by ship and thus so they came.

Of the above-mentioned groups the slaves had no choice, they were also seen as not “quite human”.  For those who seek to refute the above and try to equate indentured labourers/servants with slaves that is a non-starter.  Brevity limits further exposition here.

Slavery is as much a part of who we are as any culture we seek to associate with in Africa.  Slavery was with us in the plantations of Barbados, perhaps some of us do not want to be reminded of the elephant in the room, but it is sitting there, regardless of if we like it or not, and we cannot wish it away.

We should be proud Barbadians, confident of who we are, know our past and history and be able to take our place among other nationalities.  It is by understanding that and looking at what we have achieved and hope to achieve in the future we can be a proud people, “all” of us.

I will leave the final word to the Government official perhaps he meant… we should be able to successfully accommodate Barbadians of all shades in Barbados, from the very black to those who are white – and the shades in between – without advantage or handicap, because that is not our history, but it is our “future”, it is who we are.

209 responses to “Barbadian Slaves, Masters And The Atlantic Journey: People In A Ship”


  1. ROK wrote
    Send one of your children to be a professional grave digger.
    ================================
    Friend one of the smartest and nicest men I have ever met was a grave digger. He walked away from a “good” job in town to dig graves in a group of church yards in St Michael and St George……..and he was always smiling.

    One of my children’s buddies came from a family with a funeral home. Ten years ago he told us that these guys were getting $500 per grave. Five per week wasnt a bad pay 10 years ago, and great exercise to boot.

    One day I was doing a little digging and this grave digger fella passed. He argued Doc you like ya strong man! He looked around spotted a bucket, filled it with water and returning, threw the water where i was didding, and declared. Doc, check and see if ya not stronger now!


  2. Life can be that simple GP.


  3. Life is simple. A child coming into this world hearing as you say, “… listens to what he/she is told and allows himself/herself to be defined by that, then he/she will be defined by that, end of story.”

    What you expect? You call it socialisation. That is the reality that deprived people face everyday. So when I say the Manager of the labourers, what you think I mean? A Supervisor at MTW?

    GP your stories about a smiley faced, nice man grave digger is meant to say what? Good exercise? So why you prefer to get up and walk or go to the gym rather than go and dig graves everyday. I am sure you will find at least one to help dig per day… but that is a good idea though.

    You may be a doctor, but I want you to know that there is a very thin line between exercise and strain. Has to do with how you approach it. If you think it is a burden well then it ain’t exercise. Nowadays, a doctor only got to see ten patients to clear $800. Good exercise, right Doc? You right, If I was making that kind of money, I would not want to manage labourers.

    The “grave fella” (sound like dracula) was barely laughing at you; letting you know that a big doctor like you ain’t using your physics; rather I think he may also be telling you to apply what you learn, cause I sure you know that.


  4. Sorry John,

    The dentist is from New Zealand but I believe he had a partner who was Swedish.

    Now we have a problem with definition. Dr Tafarri considered himself Black and he must have been 90% White. The good Doctor (late) could have said what ever he thought necessary but he still White. Sir again I do not accept that you need to be pure White to be White. If you look White to me, sorry ya White. And I mean that in good way.
    Also my issue is not religions seeking to tolerate only their followers, it is that in the Brethren, a White Brethren cannot marry a Black Brethren and remain a Brethren. How could these people still be part of this landscape.

    Now I grew up with a lot of Bajan White girls who populated an all female private secondary school that was close to mine. A few of them (two) that I know of got married to White Bajans and the others I am told were married off to men in Canada, New Zealand and the UK. In fact many White males on retirement would rather immigrate to the UK or Canada to spend their evening years amongst the Anglo Saxon diapora. Now if this is not White behaviour, what the hell is it?

    When South Africa played its first Test match against the West Indies at Kinsington Oval the Bajan White cricketers took it onto themselves to schedule an awards ceremony for White Cricketers who played for Barbados and the West Indies. I think that White Bajans need to get over themselves. They are just plain ol’ white people John, like you maybe.


  5. ROK

    Everybody faces the socialisation, not just deprived people.

    Driving through traffic to a Gym to get exercise does not appeal to me and beating myself to death against some gym machine is not my idea of fun.

    But some people do it and enjoy it so who am I to rail against it.

    I enjoy my means of getting exercise immensely!! Sometimes I actually get to use a peck and a fork.

    …. and whatever work I to do I don’t start by considering it to be a burden or how much money it is going to make me.

    When the wonder of life stops fascinating me, I will die, if I am not dead before.

    It is rare to see a man in Barbados with a peck in his hand but if you visit cemeteries you will.

    Perhaps there is a vacant job managing grave diggers.


  6. BAFBFP // September 6, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    Sorry John,

    The dentist is from New Zealand but I believe he had a partner who was Swedish.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Here I was thinking he was from Norway but I could be wrong.

    The point is that when he has his hand inside your mouth the last thing you think of is the colour of his skin or whether he is from Sweden, New Zealand or Norway. or even Timbuctoo.

    Why even consider these things when you are out of his chair and there are so many other things in life to consider?


  7. BAFBFP

    I seem to recall that when SA played the West Indies first at Kensington the match was boycotted over the exclusion of Andy Cummins.

    Apart form the fact that we won it, that is the only other major thing I recall about that test.


  8. Do you think this mouse considers itself to be a mouse or is it the kitten that considers it to be a mouse?

    http://video.yahoo.com/network/100000086?v=3375896&l=100000085


  9. it is amazing that when a white man or people of other races do something,all of a sudden it is racist.Yet when a black person does something and keeps to his own race or say something against other races it is not seen as racism,but he is only looking out for his own


  10. @ John

    I am not sure where you going but I am not going into the absurd with you. Just want you to know that I agree about the socialisation.

    While black people are socialised to respect people and think of white people as the masters, white people are socialised to use black people and think of black people as their servants.


  11. @ Pissed off

    It was the other way around for 400 years.


  12. “John:

    Again, I am sorry to disappoint you but the Blanchette family is not “white”!!””

    You got that right! I used to play with them as kids when they stayed at Roundhouse. Only the sister thought she was “white” and would frounce off when we were around. However, she was brought down to earth when at Queens College, the whites let her know what colour she was. She had a major problem!


  13. The enjoyment of life demonstrated by the kitten and the enjoyment it gives to us makes this video special.

    So what if the kitten thinks the mouse is a mouse or not. Certainly the mouse doesn’t have the luxury of thought and besides, …. it isn’t even a mouse!!

    Life is just too short to worry about make believe mice.

    Enjoy it, live it to the fullest for sooner or later we will be in the capable hands of a soil technician.


  14. I remember years ago a Guyanese portugee opened a night spot on Bay Street and called it the Boat Yard after the location on which it was built. It was supposed to be for White teenagers. But in a matter of a couple of years Blacks began to “infiltrate” the club and the Whites simply moved on to patronise the Harbour Lights instead.

    I remember when a prominent White Bajan pushed to have a swimming pool opened and for the first eight years or so it was heavily patronised by White adolescent swimmers. That was until the Blacks started swimming competitively as well, and sho nuff the Whites moved on. In fact they started pushing Government for a diving facility instead.

    I remember the epic tennis matches between Jimmy Tasker Jr and Sydney Lopez on the Garrison courts. What rivalry; and the most interesting aspect of the memorable outings was the crowd; equal parts Black and White, each side cheering for its own, except of course a couple of well known fair skin lawyer people.

    Peas and Rice John, and it has nothing to do with Black people. Maybe you different..!

  15. reluctant nonbeliever Avatar
    reluctant nonbeliever

    I just wan to know the name of this gorgeous Bajan doctor BAFBFP mentions…:)

    Come my brother…tell me nuh!


  16. Pinto


  17. The scout
    September 6, 2008 at 10:40 pm
    It seems that you are protraying all women as angels and all men as devils. Well the true be told, there are some very vicious men out there but let’s face facts, women are becoming very agressive too.

    ********************

    Scout, just wanted to offer u my SUPPORT re: this story on ‘the other place’!! Sadly, can’t do it there, anymore!!

    Ironically, I think that’s one of the reasons I was bannedl: for supporting the MEN of BFP rather than any women they employ!! Helped to earn me a ban, so just goes to show the iniquitous influence which they have, as perceived by both of us!!

    I think that BFP would like to dictate who I admire and who I don’t, EVEN IF IT’S THEIR OWN MENFOLK!! It ain’t gonna happen!!

    I AIN’T FOR A FEMINISED WORLD!!


  18. Bimbro: Don’t try to cloud the issue. You were banned for using extreme racist language and just generally a manipulative pain in the a**


  19. Anon27, if ur a representative of BFP or not, then please give me examples of what ur referring to!! As for ‘generally, being a pain in the a**’, WHO COULD HAVE BEEN MORE OF A PAIN IN THE ASS TO THE PREVIOUS GOVT. THAN BFP, WHICH DID N’T THEY SET OUT SPECIFICALLY, TO BE!! WHY THEN SHOULD IT HAVE BEEN OK FOR THEM BUT NOT FOR ME!! PLEASE, SIR, WHOEVER U R, DON’T ADVOCATE THE PRACTICE OF DOUBLE-STANDARDS!! I THOUGHT BOTH THEY AND BU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE OPPOSED TO THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOUR!!


  20. Apparently, it’s ok for them to ‘overthrow a govt.’ but not for me to give them a bit of a hard time, from time to time!!

    As they say: ‘wunna does mek me laugh’!!

    In any event, at least nothing that I say will result in BFP being closed down, which was more than the previous GOVERNMENT, can say!!

    I’m not too, concerned whether BFP or BU, actually agree with my opinion, or not!! That, my friends, is the nature of democracy, for which these two claim to have such high, regard!!

    I jes expec to b able to express my opinion, in what is supposed to be a free country JUST THE SAME AS BFP AND BU!!


  21. The Jews suffering at the hands of the Nazis, with the fullest support of all European and the US Government was as a result of an attempt at a social engineering scheme called “human eugenics”, an American invention that was exported to Germany. The Blacks suffered at the hands of business interests from all over the Globe as a result of a phenomenon called “greed” (today referred to as “Growth”). Eugenics may have been put on the back burner, but greed/growth has not. It drives the enrichment of people, corporations, countries and economic unions today. It is a most vital attribute of man (of all colours) that ensures his ability to compete and survive and as long as that remains so, Slavery will never be considered for real discussion of any kind.


  22. @ BAFBFP

    “It drives the enrichment of people, corporations, countries and economic unions today. It is a most vital attribute of man (of all colours) that ensures his ability to compete and survive”
    **********

    Before the rise of the West, the concept of ownership was not known to any of the civilisations. Do a check on indigenous cultures in Africa, Asia, Pacific, North America.

    The concept that existed before was that all the resources of the lands belonged to the people living in that land. So if you wanted to build a house, you select the piece of land and build your house; or as they would say, settle.

    Your wealth and abundance was based on your ability to produce food and utility items for that matter and there was a concept of sharing cum barter within the local economy and trade with other villages, etc.

    These people considered that the land belonged to God(s) and that their tenure was short and that their only responsibility was to take care of the land they occupied.

    It is the concept of ownership that tricked these people because they could not understand how a person would want to give them something for land and then throw them off it.

    Contrary to popular belief these so-called tribes and “uncivilised” people were not about war. This seem to be the excuse used by the white man for his unwarranted attack and decimation of these people.

    Not unlike what we are seeing the Americans doing with all their garbage about terrorists. Probably the CIA created the terrorists and then they use it as an excuse to invade lands that have great wealth. They not worried about dictators in lands that are of no value to them.

    You know what makes me laugh, all this talk about money laundering, so that if you find money and don’t give it to the authorities you could be jailed. What rubbish! When they were pirating other people and stealing their food and their wealth not too long ago? Only another ploy to remain ontop, and if you happen to find a windfall that could pull you out of your misery, they snatching that too. Depravity!

    That is what capitalism is all about, deprive you so I could be fat. Not even healthy, but fat!


  23. BAFBFP

    You are right to say that there was a link between the American Eugenics movement and the Nazis.

    Hitler greatly admired their work.

    However, Eugenics is not an American invention and its adoption in America was targeted at the weak, not just Blacks.

    The weak consisted of the millions of poor immigrants flooding into the states from southern and eastern Europe in search of a better life and the thousands of Blacks who sought a better life by moving from the south to the cities of the North.

    The problems of poverty and crime in these cities were attributed to the weak. The depression fed the movement.

    Here is an extract from a site on the web:

    “What was eugenics? The English mathematician Sir Francis Galton first coined the term in 1883. He wrote, “Eugenics is the study of the agencies under social control that seek to improve or impair the racial qualities of future generations either physically or mentally.”1

    What Galton saw as a new branch of scientific inquiry became a dogmatic prescription in the ranking and ordering of human worth. His ideas found their most receptive audience at the turn of the century in the United States.

    Eugenics fed off of the fears of white middle and upper class Americans.

    In the early 20th century, the United States was experiencing rapid social and economic change. As the nation became more industrial and urban, millions of poor immigrants from southern and eastern Europe flocked to the United States seeking a better life.

    Simultaneously, thousands of African Americans were beginning a great migration to northern cities from the Jim Crow South.

    Competition for jobs intensified existing frictions along class and racial lines.”


  24. BAFBSP
    Your thread above on with respect to the Boatyard, swinming and tennis makes very interesting reading.

    I used to frequent the Boatyard in my teenage years. I don’t think the Whites left there because of Black infiltration. I always thought it was due to economic matters.
    When the Boatyard closed, I think the Harbour Lights opened years after.


  25. With permission we would like to locate the discussion to Barbados.

    The major races (Blacks &Whites) tolerate each other. This is manifested in the separatist approach to how the two groups socialize etc. This is probably caused by how the two have been socialized over the years, the perceptions coming out of the bondage experience etc.

    What can we do as a small nation to break down the barriers and move towards a truly harmonious and integrated society where the country can benefit economically and socially.


  26. ROK

    Your concept of ownership of land by peoples of Africa I think is flawed.

    However you are right that today’s concept of ownership is completely at variance with the past customs of Africa.

    I think these customs were also different from those in North America, South Amerrica, Asia and India.

    My interpretation of what I have come across is that the chief dispensed resources to the strong who could use them and pay him a tribute.

    This dispensation could be revoked if the strong failed to deliver or the chief found some one stronger or more to his liking.

    There was no inheritance.

    The strong was in temporary possession of the resource and that possession could be terminated by the chief.

    The drawings I have seen of Europeans kneeling before a chief and bearing him gifts indicates to me the absolute power the chief possessed to dispense favours.

    They traded at the grace and favour of the chief.

    Trans – Atlantic slavery worked because there were two willing parties involved in the trade of enslaved peoples, …… your ancestors and mine.

    An imbalance arose because the strong to whom the chief had given the rights to got much stronger because resources greater than the chief’s were also being employed.

    Maybe the chief got overtaken by events and found himself in time one of the enslaved.

    Was it unfair, horrible, dispicable and all those words?

    Of course, but it happened and there is nothing we can do to change the past. All we can do is discuss it.

    I have put an interpretation forward which may not be right and which may not be your interpretation and I expect to be slaughtered but take some time and go through these images in the link and think about the timelines.

    The depictions may just be somebody’s active imagination, but then again, maybe they are not.

    http://hitchcock.itc.virginia.edu/Slavery/index.php


  27. David, what can we do to break down barriers? That’s easy! Use a business model. In this case – “copy”.

    All we have to do is to copy what any country has done to successfully improve harmonious relations between Blacks and Whtes, where both groups benefitted socially and economically.


  28. oops,

    sorry David.

    I agree we should stick with Barbados.

    If you want to take out my last two comments please do!!

    John

    We are enjoying the history lesson but we don’t want we want the discussion to address some of the issues raised by Yarbroom.

    David


  29. Of course there is more we can do than discuss it, so don’t sit there feeling smug. For example, Government could tax wealth in order to distribute it. They could compulsorily acquire land for development, etc.


  30. You see what we went through? The brutality? It is your foreparents that did that. Now you telling me all we could do is discuss. You frighten to get the same thing done to you?

    Well we ain’t like you. We could never do those things to people. That is why we want to forget it. It was too attrocious, and to think that in your genes. If you had the chance you would do it all over again.

    Happening now, check the rape and infanticide in Iraq? There is nothing that could happen to the white man now that would satisfy justice. Even to stip you of your land and corral you on a reservation for 200 years would not be justice enough.


  31. To break down barriers the first thing the white man has to do is share resources. What? Talks done!


  32. @ John,

    Sorry for pulling at your leg so hard just now. Couldn’t help.

    Yes, the ownership thing was communal and everything was in the hands of the King or Chief. Similar to Europe where a Knight, Lord, duke or duchess would be given dominion over lands, to keep an army, etc. so when the King wanted troops, troops were available.

    It is really the capitalists thinkers who changed all that. I think this world would have been far better off if the communal path was not interrupted. The argument that Capitalism had to happen is a flimsy excuse for what capitalism has perpetrated.


  33. ROK

    Your fore parents and my fore parents both came from Africa!! Perhaps both of them sold their kith and kin to Europeans. Maybe yours sold mine …. or vice versa.

    Do you give me something as a form of atonement for what your ancestors did to mine … or do I give you?

    Some of my fore parents came from England and Portugal, and Scotland and I believe some were also Amerindian, who predate both the Africans and Europeans in the New World. I even have Jewish ancestors.

    I can’t do anything about any one of my ancestors, they are a part of who I am.

    If I want to be picky I could argue from an Amerindian perspective.

    These were decimated by the diseases brought by those heinous Africans and Europeans who then took their land.

    All you have to do is go and look and see if some of your foreparents may have come from Europe and then admit it to yourself if you find the evidence.

    Have you actually looked or are you assuming your ancestry?

    The capitalist system and slavery were alive and well in Africa long before the Europeans got there.

    … and you can pull my leg all you want. I am completely at ease with who I am, just please don’t pull the wool over your own eyes in front of us by denying reality.

    It looks bad!!

    I can’t change the past and I am not trying. The present and the future are my priorities.

    When I get a chance I look at the distant past to inform myself and try to understand why we are what we are.


  34. ROK // September 7, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    @ John,

    Yes, the ownership thing was communal and everything was in the hands of the King or Chief. Similar to Europe where a Knight, Lord, duke or duchess would be given dominion over lands, to keep an army, etc. so when the King wanted troops, troops were available.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    In England it was called serfdom!! Absolutely nothing communal about it!!


  35. Check this link on serfdom!!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom


  36. ok John,

    Jumping ahead as usual: The way the formula goes it starts with communalism, then it goes to serfdom (serfdom is not the word I am looking for but they mean the same thing) then capitalism (factors of production) and it goes back through the cycle at a different level, socialism/communism. Check Marx; dialectics.


  37. John
    This is a “polite” question with no hostility intended.

    On September 6, 2008 at 1:21pm
    You Stated: “In today’s world, this consider to be white or black thing is rubbish you know!!
    Colour is largely irrelevant
    What is relevant can’t be packaged so simply as “black” and “white”!!

    On September 6, 2008 at 6:37pm
    In response to Deng Xiaping’s question. “John when did you realise that you are not white and does your family know?

    You Stated:” “I am Bajan.
    I can’t remember when I started to figure out who I was or how I realized that skin colour was irrelevant to who I am. I am still trying to figure out who I am. That what’s giving me the problems and engages my mind when it isn’t engaged with other things”…

    On September 7, 2008 at 2:21pm
    You stated: “Trans- Atlantic slavery worked because there were two willing parties involved in the trade of enslaves peoples,… your ancestors and mine”..

    Are we to assume from the clarity with which you have now stated which side of the line you consider yourself to be, from the last comment. That this discussion has clarified or crystallized something, or has ambiguity been used as a convenient cover.


  38. @ROK, @John, @Et al…

    I presume you’ve all read and internalized Machiavelli? (Google for “The Prince”.)

    I’m developing a theory and thesis that money distorts markets. This seems like an antithesis of a marketplace, but the more I look in to it, the more I become convinced that this is so.

    IMHO, in this modern age, almost all of us have become slaves (or, at least, indentured servants) to others.

    Credit cards… Mortgages… Credit ratings… Job security… Consumption… Health concerns… Oil prices… Computer Virus’… Global Warming…

    Machiavelli teaches us that keeping others off-balance and afraid is worthwhile for those in power.

    Interestingly, true Transparency would eliminate this. But in our ever more connected and international world, things seem to be becoming ever more opaque…


  39. Yardbroom // September 7, 2008 at 5:02 pm

    John
    This is a “polite” question with no hostility intended.

    On September 7, 2008 at 2:21pm
    You stated: “Trans- Atlantic slavery worked because there were two willing parties involved in the trade of enslaves peoples,… your ancestors and mine”..

    Are we to assume from the clarity with which you have now stated which side of the line you consider yourself to be, from the last comment. That this discussion has clarified or crystallized something, or has ambiguity been used as a convenient cover.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    When I am on the blogs I take no offense at any comment directed to me.

    I would point out that we all know how to spell the word assume!!

    I was hoping someone would pick me up on this and I am glad it was you.

    The statement is purposely ambiguous!!

    Do I mean that both ROK’s and my ancestors were African, or both ROK’s and my ancestors were European or ROK’s ancestors were European and the my ancestors were African or perhaps my ancestors were European and ROK’s were African?

    Answer ….. all, some or none of the above. I do not see a line or sides!! I have done enough looking at genealogical records to know that no one in Barbados can say for sure who their ancestors were.

    Some of my African ancestors perhaps bought and sold slaves, perhaps not. I will never know.

    One of my ancestors of European descent owned slaves by virtue of marriage and later by purchase of a Plantation in Barbados in the 1800’s. I claim descent from him and one of his slaves.

    Another one of my ancestors of African descent was freed in the early 1700’s.

    If I go back 10 generations, about 300 years, there were 1024 persons at that time who I can call ancestors!!

    Same applies to you, same applies to ROK, same applies to everyone. It is part of our humanity, something which we all possess. That is the only certain thing in all of this!!

    Am I going to choose one or two or thirty or 300 or whatever number of ancestors to define who I am ….. no way.

    I am grateful to all, who ever they may have been because if any one did not do what they did, I would not be here discussing them with you and ROK!!

    … and if it was ROK’s ancestor who sold my ancestors into slavery, or even yours, all I can say is thanks!!!!

    The point is we just don’t know who our ancestors were and to draw a line and appoint sides makes no sense to me.

    There is a distinct possibility that you ROK and I may share ancestors, neither one of us can tell, unless we get our DNA checked!!

    There is no point to a line, …. no point to sides!!

    I figured that out long ago, before BU or BFP came along!! The discussion has helped to crystallise my thinking even further.

    I have been probing, perhaps naughty in my comments for which I apologise but I have been so because I want to be challenged to think and to challenge others to think.

    That is my nature, part of who I am.


  40. That is the enigma of struggling to achieve the signs of success in our system.

    The more we climb, the deeper we fall…into debt.

    The recession, soon to be delivered upon us, is a two-way street, and its essential quality depends upon your position in the pyramid (or more graphically obelisk) your perception is based.

    The vast majority of we, the plebeian workers, maintaining the whole rotten edifice view recession as another stumbling block on our hard road to ultimate success.

    We will struggle and work even harder to overcome this unfortunate phase in the economic cycle.

    However the real beneficiaries of this whole fiat system view the same scenario from a completely different angle.

    To them it is an opportunity to buy cheaply, screw the small man, and transfer even more wealth towards the pinnacle.

    I may be too cynical, but watching current events, I have to ask who is paying for this mismanagement of the world economy.

    My conclusion has to be… not the class who have benefitted from the obscene, and perhaps immoral, profits, but the small man seduced into co-operating with their Ponzi-like schemes.

    Just the thoughts of an amused observer.

    I welcome contradictions from the blog.


  41. @ Chris

    Without money the marketplace would collapse. Production of everything except food would come to a grinding halt. We would have to redefine the economy.


  42. @ROK: “Without money the marketplace would collapse.”

    With the greatest of respect… I understand this.

    But, what happens when the money produced from a marketplace is used to leverage unfair access to other markets?

    What happens when the money produced within a marketplace is used to distort and corrupt those who define the marketplace?

    What happens when the top 1% of the wealthy own 50% of the wealth?


  43. @ Chris

    I was just kinda thinking aloud. The question would be, how do you go about re-defining the market?

    I’m thinking about barter. Somehow I think it would reduce the value of consumer items. For example, in the absence of money, how would a company making washing machines operate?

    Imagine that a washing machine is worth an acre of carrots, would the company divide up the carrots among the workers? Maybe the company would have to use the carrots to get raw materials.

    So what if the carrots go bad on the way to the raw material suppliers? Whose loss is it?

    Another thing is the value of gold, diamonds, etc. should go down. The most important currency would be food. Food is perishable but also replenishable.

    Would really love to hear your thoughts or theory on this. You may have something. Right now this money thing is very fragile and collapse is imminent.


  44. @ROK et al…

    Please let me first of all say that I am not now arguing (and did not in my above) that money should not exist. To the contrary — money is critical, although it is simply a means of keeping count; of keeping score.

    Barter is simply an inefficient proxy to same…

    I do, however, stand by my thesis that money distorts markets…

    @ROK… I shall shortly speak more to your immediate above. (And I appreciate your insightful questions.)


  45. David // September 7, 2008 at 2:16 pm

    With permission we would like to locate the discussion to Barbados.

    The major races (Blacks &Whites) tolerate each other. This is manifested in the separatist approach to how the two groups socialize etc. This is probably caused by how the two have been socialized over the years, the perceptions coming out of the bondage experience etc.

    What can we do as a small nation to break down the barriers and move towards a truly harmonious and integrated society where the country can benefit economically and socially.

    ***********************

    Your answer is in your use of the word, “‘tolerate’, each other”. Some people r happy, simply to be ‘tolerated’!! Perhaps, many on here fall into that category!! I, myself, am not content simply to be merely, ‘tolerated’ by other races, especially in my own country!!

    But then why would another race wish to associate with the ‘excessively, wukking-up people’!! It’s not considered to be civilised, behaviour and whites and other races regard themselves as being civilised!!

    Thus, to answer your question David, we need first, to become more civilised!!


  46. @ Bimbro

    You need a little exposure to this world. Some of the things I have seen the French and other white cultures do with their children in the name of culture, make wukking up look small.

    This talk about civilised is pure nonsense. That is one of the psychological weapons used on us to make us ashamed of our own culture and that is why, like you, most think that what is white is right.

    What you are saying is a non-argument and not worth the trouble pursuing. We are who we are and we should not and should stop trying to behave like somebody else.

    We will never overcome the mental shakles until the time comes when we could look at our own and appreciate it, rather than condemn it.

    We were civilised before the white man. Is there anything about slavery that has a sense of being civilised? You took a look at the pictures in the link from John? Tell me that any of that is civilised behaviour. If we were not civilised, they could not do it, because we would have been as cruel as them. They would have met their match.


  47. ROK // September 8, 2008 at 2:59 am

    We are who we are and we should not and should stop trying to behave like somebody else.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    That is my point.

    I don’t think we know who we are.

    So not only do I think we don’t know what to expect of each other and take ungrounded positions, I also don’t think we know how to behave!!

    We just do what we are told because we are not comfortable in who we are ….. we just don’t know.

    Do you realise how much money Government has invested in cropover to convince us its interpretation is the correct one?

    The money is really directed at trying to keep the economy moving but in so doing it is, I believe, Government is making us into something we are not.

    I keep finding facts in history that are at complete variance with what our historians and Government assure us to be true in many areas of history.

    I am cool with what I have found out about my ancestors and feel no urge to join the crop over celebratios which appeal neither to the African or European roots within me.

    … but that’s me.

    I am who I am, …. still searching and finding it out day by day, uncovering fact by fact and linking those facts together.

    That is how I spend some of my free time during the year celebrating who I am.


  48. ROK // September 8, 2008 at 2:59 am

    We were civilised before the white man. Is there anything about slavery that has a sense of being civilised? You took a look at the pictures in the link from John? Tell me that any of that is civilised behaviour. If we were not civilised, they could not do it, because we would have been as cruel as them. They would have met their match.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    …… sadly ROK, if you look at them closely, you will see it is Africans bringing their fellow Africans overland and by rivers to the coast in chains.

    If you read about the life of Olaudah Equiano you will also get a first hand account of how he was captured and transported to the coast. Here is a link to give you a feel for what went on.

    http://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2007/03/31/a-barbados-slave-i-now-wished-for-the-last-friend-death-to-relieve-me/#comments

    Slavery was alive and flourishing in Africa long before “the white man” got there!!


  49. Start with St. Winifred School and a couple other primary schools of that elk. Now there is the one of the roots of the problem. Harrison College may be elitist by design but you get their on results oriented merit. There is a recently built primary School for children from Islamic families, even that I can tolerate, but St. Winifred’s…..


  50. ROK
    Blacks are still selling their black brothers and sisters to the white man. The whip has been replaced by a bunch of keys or a company car. The black man/woman then report ever little thing on the job to the white man and sometimes to tell ties to be in the white man good books. We STILL in the middle passage.

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