Est.2007

Barbados Underground

Bringing News and Opinions to the People

Banner promoting anonymous crime reporting with a phone and contact number 1 800 TIPS (8477), featuring the Crime Stoppers logo and a QR code for submitting tips.

Barbados Association Of Professional Engineers And The ABC Highway

← Back

Your message to the BLOGMASTER was sent

CONTACT THE BLOGMASTER ONLY

Submitted by BU Family Member

Artist Impression Of The Proposed Flyover At A Roundabout In Barbados

Do the light poles look any different now from those on any section of the highway?

(BAPE said the lightpole bases “looked small” 😉

Does the island in the Belle still look too far out in the road now the road is completed?

(Another BAPE point)

Now that the wells that were planned uphill from the Haggatt Hall area are in place, is there still water “sheeting” across the road?

(BAPE jumped to a wonderful evaluation on an incomplete project)

Now that we STILL have backups at the roundabouts is BAPE willing to admit that flyovers just MAY be warranted?

Its beginning to look more and more like the Barbados Association of Professional Engineers was either

(1) playing politics itself,

(2) being used to further others political ends or

(3) just didn’t know what they were talking about!

Related Link

Owen Arthur Infers Local Barbadian Engineers Are B-Class

Discover more from Barbados Underground

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

449 responses to “Barbados Association Of Professional Engineers And The ABC Highway”

  1. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    Lets say Bridgetown is the HEART and the many side roads leading to the heart are the ARTERIES. Don’t you feel that you should clear the arteries so that the blood reaches the heart? The ABC Highway and the building of Flyovers will not ease the flow through the arteries leading to the heart. Have you heard of sweeping stuff from outside to the inside or should it be from the Inside to the outside when cleaning your home?

  2. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Victor on that premise you are correct.
    Let us consider the ABC highway as the interior of the house naturally we have to deal with that first.
    No point in starting at Bridgetown and sweeping inwards.
    Like a river the arteries lead to the sea and its easier to go with the flow rather than swim upstream!

  3. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Ah John
    Please dont take up Medicine.
    If you keep a tourniquet on too long your arm drops off.
    However your analogy isnt bad.
    The previous administration saw the problem asked for help and the Doctors (3s)who had the correct and proper solution came in ,diagnosed the problem and recommended the most appropriate treatment.

  4. Waterboy Avatar
    Waterboy

    ru4real // August 24, 2008 at 9:48 pm

    However your analogy isnt bad.
    The previous administration saw the problem asked for help and the Doctors (3s)who had the correct and proper solution came in ,diagnosed the problem and recommended the most appropriate treatment.
    ———————————————————–
    ru4real, how did 3s come in?
    How did the previous administration ask for help? Telepathy?
    Where did 3S hear that the previous admonistration had an insoluble problem and come riding to the rescue with an amazing solution that us dimwits in Barbados could not solve? The flyover grapevine?

    There was no pre- qualification.
    There was no Request for Proposals.
    There was no Tender.

  5. David Avatar
    David

    If we are to believe former Minister Gline Clarke in his last budget presentation, the Civil Servants in the ministry of transport recommended and sanctioned the 3S deal. So far we have not heard one civil servant who has offered a rebuttal.

  6. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    By the way ru4real, I was in Canada land and saw Sintra who build the original ABC highway dug up a main artery on one of the major highways one day and within a week the entire stretch was repaved. From miles the construction company had caution cones with information advising motorists to take alternative routes. The cones were placed in a position to show the road will be narrowed from 3 lanes to one lane. What is missing in Barbados is the road communication aspect and the speedy completion of construction. The better doctor would have been Sintra.

  7. Bush tea Avatar
    Bush tea

    wait David, did Bizzy Williams not claim to have taken the idea to Glyne Clarke ‘early one morning’? (when lazy Bajans were asleep)

    Did the Williams Group’s Annual report last year not claim that the whole thing was Bizzy’s idea?

    I actually got the impression that the civil servants hated the way it was done. I guess we will have to wait till one retires to know the truth.

  8. David Avatar
    David

    @Bt

    As usual you have to throw a spanner in a nicely packaged theory. You are correct when you say that we have to wait until a civil servant retires, they seem to take their oath vis a vis the official secrets act very seriously and our politicians know it.

  9. John Avatar
    John

    BT

    You must be mistaken. I always understood Bizzy was an Electrical Engineer, not a Traffic Engineer.

    I would look for a Medical doctor, not a Psychologist to fix a damaged artery.

    ….. I might consider a vet in an emergency.

  10. John Avatar
    John

    Tell me Why // August 24, 2008 at 8:33 pm

    Lets say Bridgetown is the HEART and the many side roads leading to the heart are the ARTERIES. Don’t you feel that you should clear the arteries so that the blood reaches the heart? The ABC Highway and the building of Flyovers will not ease the flow through the arteries leading to the heart. Have you heard of sweeping stuff from outside to the inside or should it be from the Inside to the outside when cleaning your home?
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Maybe the flyovers should take the traffic into and out of Bridgetown. Perhaps they are pointing the wrong way.

    Guess it depends on where the traffic is coming from, ….. or going to.

    It also depends on how much traffic there is too.

  11. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Victor
    Canada has massive amounts of space and alternative routes.
    All of Barbados’s alternative routes are taken everyday by those who try every which way to avoid traffic. But they are small and narrow and ultimately if you want to go to Bridgetown you will have to use one of the existing routes. Its foolish to compare a tiny island with a huge volume of traffic to a VAST continent with unlimited space!
    The problem of communication and speedy completion can be laid firmly at the door of the Ministry of works who have deliberately delayed and obstructed the project for their own agenda.
    This has caused inconvenience and unnecessary expense to the people of Barbados.
    They have neglected all the advice of the contractors re safety and advice to the public.
    This can be seen quite clearly on the new highway where signs instructing the public on the use of a two lane highway are STILL not in evidence.
    I do believe Victor that you are a fair man and will acknowledge that ANY contractor will make no headway if the Ministry itself is determined to sabotage it for their own ends.
    The very people who are supposed to be working for the good of the people.

  12. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @John

    The flyovers go the length of the highway because the land this way was already owned in the main part by the government.
    To put the flyovers across the highway would entail greater expense as it would involve compulsory purchase of property.
    Once the flyover is in place the traffic from the sideroads will flow freely underneath it.

  13. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 24, 2008 at 9:48 pm

    Ah John
    Please dont take up Medicine.
    If you keep a tourniquet on too long your arm drops off.
    However your analogy isnt bad.
    The previous administration saw the problem asked for help and the Doctors (3s)who had the correct and proper solution came in ,diagnosed the problem and recommended the most appropriate treatment.
    +++++++++++++++++

    Don’t worry ru4real, I have been watching hospital pictures since TV started in Barbados and Dr. Kildare used to show.

    That is over forty years now.

    I feel I know a thing or two.

    …. it is just the giddy head that gets me every time I see blood.

    Clearly you picked up something too as you realise you can’t leave on a tourniquet too long.

    You are pretty sharp too.

  14. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    David says
    the Civil Servants in the ministry of transport recommended and sanctioned the 3S deal. So far we have not heard one civil servant who has offered a rebuttal.
    ——————————————————
    How can they when they were signed as said by Mia Mottley in her counter budget speech by Nash Lovell and Winston Coppin?

  15. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Hey John
    I watched Dr Kildare too, I can still hum the theme tune ; )

  16. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 24, 2008 at 10:57 pm

    @John

    The flyovers go the length of the highway because the land this way was already owned in the main part by the government.
    To put the flyovers across the highway would entail greater expense as it would involve compulsory purchase of property.
    Once the flyover is in place the traffic from the sideroads will flow freely underneath it.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    … so the flyovers can’t work properly unless there are four lanes.

  17. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @Waterboy
    The answers to your questions is I dont know.
    However Barbados Traffic problems are quite well documented in the region.

  18. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 24, 2008 at 11:11 pm

    Hey John
    I watched Dr Kildare too, I can still hum the theme tune ; )
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    I figured so from your comment. …. but you have to keep watching them if you want to learn.

  19. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @John

    They need four lanes at the base of the flyover ie the approach.

  20. Tell me Why Avatar
    Tell me Why

    All of Barbados’s alternative routes are taken everyday by those who try every which way to avoid traffic. But they are small and narrow and ultimately if you want to go to Bridgetown you will have to use one of the existing routes.
    ……………………………………………………………………..
    You just answer the question why we don’t need flyovers by your above submission. At least not until we carefully analyse the situation after the completion of the road widening aspect. Our major problem is the roads leading to Bridgetown.

  21. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    …quite right BT, I do recall Bizzy making that claim on a Sunday Down To Brass Tacks. It followed a suggestion from then President of BAPE that he (Bizzy) should declare his interests on the project.

    Incidentally, it was the 2005 Williams Annual Report (not last years), and they did not claim that it was their idea… only that they had supported it. They were, however, sufficiently enamored with the project that they included a pretty picture of it in their annual report: http://www.williamsind.com/annual2005/pg6.aspx

  22. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 24, 2008 at 11:20 pm

    @John

    They need four lanes at the base of the flyover ie the approach.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    …. so originally the idea was to build flyovers and widen only the approaches to the flyovers to four lanes because the flyovers neede these four lanes at the base..

    It was then subsequently decided to widen the whole highway.

  23. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @John

    Yes John that was the original proposal laid out by 3S.
    The widening of the entire highway the building of the road barriers were all extra work ie an increase in the scope of works and consequently the cost of the operation were at the request of the Ministry of works.

  24. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    TMW

    Victor there is no need of any analysis.
    3S has stated all along that the road widening is of no use whatsoever without the flyovers. Everyone in the country who uses the roads now knows this to be true.

  25. David Avatar
    David

    @ru4real

    We will keep throwing this argument at you all the time. The government as reported by the Prime Minister discontinued the 3S contract because they have questioned the legality of the contract. Whether they are correct will be determine in time. To discuss whether flyovers is a solution or not becomes redundant dont you think?

  26. John Avatar
    John

    I am thinking more and more that this whole episode had more to do with getting the ABC Highway widened than flyovers.

    The really sad thing is that we have done nothing to reduce the number of cars on the road.

    Anybody know how we compare with other countries in terms of cars per person?

    I recall hearing several years ago that we were right up there with Japan.

    It is the same with our garbage problem, we don’t seem capable of understanding that the problem needs to be tackled at source.

  27. John Avatar
    John

    If you look at the artist’s impression in the photo at the head of the blog you will realise that there is an error in that two of the approaches to the roundabout only have 3 lanes, not 4 lanes as required.

  28. Waterboy Avatar
    Waterboy

    ru4real // August 25, 2008 at 6:52 am

    @John

    Yes John that was the original proposal laid out by 3S.
    The widening of the entire highway the building of the road barriers were all extra work ie an increase in the scope of works and consequently the cost of the operation were at the request of the Ministry of works.
    ————————————————————
    ru4real, so the widening of the highway was extra work, an increase in the scope of work?

    So you are saying that 3S put in a proposal for flyovers on a major 2 lane highway without including in that proposal the widening of the highway? Would they not have needed to widen the road at each and every flyover to 4 lanes? Yes they would.

    Guess what, no sooner have you come off one of the flyovers you are on to another. At each and every flyover you need 4 lanes so basically you have to widen the highway.

    If 3S did not include the road widening they were either incompetent or did it deliberately to make their proposal have a lower cost.

    So we agree on one thing. 3S did not include the road widening. Reason? To deliberately and dishonestly make their proposal look like it had a lower cost than it actually would.

    Unfortunately no other Requests for Proposals were advertised. Whay was that?

  29. The scout Avatar
    The scout

    If in another twenty years and our traffic continues to increase loke this , what are we going to do? Widen the H’way some more? We need a comprehensive study done on the amount and type of vehicles this island can afford . Neither gov’t seem interested in doing such. We seem to be trying a quick fix system that is costing this country millions and just solving the problem for a few years and when the problem rises again it is more complex.

  30. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 25, 2008 at 6:56 am

    TMW

    Victor there is no need of any analysis.
    3S has stated all along that the road widening is of no use whatsoever without the flyovers. Everyone in the country who uses the roads now knows this to be true.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Man oh man!!

    The road widening is no use without the flyovers and the flyovers are no use without the road widening!!!

    So why we didn’t call a spade a spade at the beginning?

  31. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @ Waterboy

    At no time did 3S recommend the road widening.
    Their initial designs showed the roads were to be widened at the base of the flyovers .

    NOT the entire length of the ABC highway

    3S has acted with transparency and honesty throughout all the proceedings.

    The road widening was added to the scope of works by the Ministry of works in the person of Nash Lovell .Ditto all the other extras which were added.

    A contractor builds what the client – in this case the government represented by the Ministry of works requests.

  32. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @Scout

    A comprehensive traffic study was done by 3S using highly competent ,experienced and independent traffic engineers . This study calculated that the flyovers would be a solution to the traffic congestion along the ABC highway for the next 25 years in comparison to other solutions. ie more traffic lights.

  33. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @Waterboy
    Your attempts to make a case for dishonesty are groundless.

    The total widening of the ABC highway is far greater than the initial cost of the project.
    The distance between the flyovers except at Warrens is considerable – you do live in Barbados I assume or have you never been here and have never even seen the highway at all.

    It has to be said that the ABC highway was in a very poor condition throughout being poorly designed in the first instance with many errors in road level elevations.

  34. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    John says
    If you look at the artist’s impression in the photo at the head of the blog you will realise that there is an error in that two of the approaches to the roundabout only have 3 lanes, not 4 lanes as required.
    —————————————————–
    This is not a mistake the roads that you indicate are feeder roads joining the ABC going east-west.
    They are not the ABC highway this is indicated in grey on the picture shown.

  35. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @David

    The government as reported by the Prime Minister discontinued the 3S contract because they have questioned the legality of the contract.
    ———————————————————–
    This is a very poor excuse for ILLEGALLY terminating a contract.

    Especially one that was signed by their own representatives Nash Lovell and the attorney for the Ministry Winston Coppin.

    Surely an attorney at law would not sign anything he deemed illegal?

    To terminate a contract you have to
    a) follow correct contractual procedure
    b) show justifiable cause for termination.

    To do otherwise shows an arrogant disregard for international law and invites litigation.

    The question is other than grandstanding what actually has the government to gain by taking this step?

  36. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 25, 2008 at 8:57 am

    This is not a mistake the roads that you indicate are feeder roads joining the ABC going east-west.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    … but the feeder roads are where the traffic originates and exits. These are the main arteries.

    The ABC highway just provides a connection between these main arteries for a motorist to get from one to the other.

    The only gain the flyovers suggest to me is if you are going to the airport and manage to get on to the ABC highway.

    Then it should be plain sailing.

    All the other main arteries are clogged.

    If these arteries are blocked, then it doesn’t matter what is done to the ABC highway, getting on or off the ABC onto the clogged main arteries remains a problem.

  37. John Avatar
    John

    Here is an article which speaks to the effect of high oil prices on American’s driving habits.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080825/ap_on_go_ot/gas_prices_impact

    This is another factor at play on the ABC

  38. art Avatar
    art

    Issue one: spending large sums of cash on capital works

    a) How much should it be?
    b) How should the process be done, and how to tender it for best value?
    c) Who monitors the tenders, the costs and ensures taxpayers’ money is spent honestly/wisely?

    Issue 2: Corruption of the process and politics

    a) Has the process above in the past been abused for the benefit of individuals who should not?
    b) How should the future process be carried out, and who will check behind to ensure our taxes and NIS pensions are spent wisely without being partially stolen (some people think this is true- is it)?
    c) Can we trust ANY governments to carry out their promises and to bring the laws that will do the above?
    d) Can we trust the blogs to be neutral and to bring us to the ‘promised land’ as outlined above?

    Who is art, a little fart? Is he smart? He seems to want to play his part… and help Barbados.

    What do you see when you guys look in the mirror? Do you see a smart barbarian who gets his piece of the action, or do you see an honest citizen? Or a bit of both? I see an honest citizen who cares about Barbados when I look in mine.

    That’s all I have to offer.. advice. I ain’t nobody anyhow, so somebody gine want to kill me for saying so, so I dun saying this. Let someone else.

    chupse.

  39. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    John you have to start somewhere.
    Its best to make a start than sit and coffee house about it and get nothing done at all.

    It will aid the free flow of the feeder roads as they will not have to stop at the roundabouts in order to allow the ABC North-south traffic to proceed.

    So you have a choice, you can criticize everything (BAPE) you can do nothing at all and have gridlock or you can do something positive the only way to achieve results.

  40. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 25, 2008 at 10:12 am

    John you have to start somewhere.
    Its best to make a start than sit and coffee house about it and get nothing done at all.

    It will aid the free flow of the feeder roads as they will not have to stop at the roundabouts in order to allow the ABC North-south traffic to proceed.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I always subscribed to the old saying “Look before you Leap”.

    I agree that sometimes a Leap of faith is good to make but you better have faith in whatever you choose to have faith in to support the leap without the look.

    If that leap of faith involves spending other people’s money, then my feeling is that a leap of faith is not an option unless a really hard look has been taken and the people are made aware that a leap of faith is being taken.

    It also goes without saying that the people should also know just how much of their money is supporting the leap of faith and how.

    The sum of $117 million + something or the other is a Leap of faith without Looking at the alternatives or even the down side eg the effect of drainage on the Belle Water Supply.

    An engineer is trained to examine and avoid failure modes.

    That way the designs that result have a good chance of working.

    …. and with regards to starting somewhere, why not try first to reduce the number of cars on the road and see if the problems heal themselves.

    Right now in America it is happening naturally and the number of accidents is falling because the cost of gas has changed people’s driving habits.

    The removal of the subsidy on gas should have occurred in Barbados years ago.

    Now we have reality to face with gas prices and we are down $117 million ….. plus something or the other.

  41. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @John
    I agree its always right to look before you leap.
    Engineers dont just come and jump into a project as you well know. these things take years of preparation and studies to see if they are feasible and to confront any problems of environment etc.

    However how can the honest contractor protect himself against dishonest civil servants?

    Civil servants who lie for their own agendas?
    Civil servants who have no problem in delaying a project by every possible means for political reasons without regard to public money spend.

    Outside contractors come to do a job.
    It is in their interests to do a good job and finish on time.
    It is not in their interest to overspend or do a bad job as this would affect their reputation and future prospects.

    So what I would like to know is why did Nash Lovell a civil servant ,after signing a contract together with Winston Coppin a government lawyer ie also a civil servant, delay and obstruct the Free Flow project in every possible way.Including extending and changing the original scope of works and instigating major ( and useless) design changes .
    By doing this they were aware that the cost of the entire project would spiral .

    Failure to attend meetings loss of documentation deliberate prolonging of procedure.
    All these can be laid at the door these so called civil ie public servants

    What did they hope to gain?
    Was it solely to embarrass the previous administration?
    Should they be brought to justice for causing the taxpayers unnecessary expenditure?

    These two gentlemen are surely worthy of close scrutiny even forensic investigation !

  42. art Avatar
    art

    Do not bring the “outside” contractor. It is not what Barbados wants

  43. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 25, 2008 at 11:20 am

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    You have said a mouthful. It got me here with palpitations.

    I am lucky I have been watching Dr. Kildare and and all those hospital pictures over the past 40 odd years and know to go and lie down for a few moments, rest myself and see if they pass.

  44. Fairplay Avatar
    Fairplay

    If Barbados signs contracts and then reneges on them there wont be any outside contractors willing to work in the country at all.All it will get a reputation for lack of integrity a typical bannana republic.
    Barbados just dont have the knowhow not to rely on foreign consultants but they will shoot themsleves in the foot if they start playing the dirty tricks games.

  45. Waterboy Avatar
    Waterboy

    @ru4real

    There was no pre- qualification.
    There was no Request for Proposals.
    There was no Tender.

    Can you explain why none of the above were done for a project of this magnitude?

    Maybe, just maybe, the politrical directorate, for whatever reasons, forced 3S down the throats of the civial servants who then realised that that it would be absolute idiocy and unsafe to widen the road only at the flyovers?

    I stand by my contention that to meet internationally recognised standards of safety the whole road would have had to have been widened. Or you would need to reduce the speed of going on or off the flyover.

  46. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @Waterboy
    You are talking rubbish.
    I doubt you would know an international standard if it jumped up and bit you on the a………

  47. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Waterboy

    You obviously have inside information on civil servants.
    Please tell why a civil servant should put his name to a legal document together with another such civil servant a lawyer to boot and then years later it appears there are ‘doubts’ about its legality.

    Doesnt this stink like day old fish?

  48. Equity Avatar
    Equity

    Why is a civil servant, and not a high ranking one at that, signing a contract on behalf of Barbados? Something smeels about this!

  49. Waterboy Avatar
    Waterboy

    ru4real // August 25, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    Waterboy

    You obviously have inside information on civil servants.
    Please tell why a civil servant should put his name to a legal document together with another such civil servant a lawyer to boot and then years later it appears there are ‘doubts’ about its legality.

    Doesnt this stink like day old fish?
    ———————————————————–
    ru4real, what really stinks is this:

    There was no pre- qualification.
    There was no Request for Proposals.
    There was no Tender.

    Can you explain why none of the above were done for a project of this magnitude?

    We are waiting…………….

  50. Waterboy Avatar
    Waterboy

    ru4real // August 25, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    Waterboy

    You obviously have inside information on civil servants.
    Please tell why a civil servant should put his name to a legal document together with another such civil servant a lawyer to boot and then years later it appears there are ‘doubts’ about its legality.

    Doesnt this stink like day old fish?
    ————————————————————
    ru4real, They signed an MOU. Is someone challenging its legality? An MOU is just that a Memorandum of Understanding. It is followed up by a CONTRAT/AGREEMENT and the MOU forms part of the Agreement.

    My understanding is that a $100 million dollar plus project proceeded on an MOU, no further Agreement/Contract, no detailed drawings etc. etc. That is the issue. But remember:

    There was no pre- qualification.
    There was no Request for Proposals.
    There was no Tender.

    So what do you expect.The correct procedures were not followed from day one.

The blogmaster invites you to join the discussion.

Trending

Discover more from Barbados Underground

Subscribe now to keep reading and get access to the full archive.

Continue reading