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Barbados Association Of Professional Engineers And The ABC Highway

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Submitted by BU Family Member

Artist Impression Of The Proposed Flyover At A Roundabout In Barbados

Do the light poles look any different now from those on any section of the highway?

(BAPE said the lightpole bases “looked small” 😉

Does the island in the Belle still look too far out in the road now the road is completed?

(Another BAPE point)

Now that the wells that were planned uphill from the Haggatt Hall area are in place, is there still water “sheeting” across the road?

(BAPE jumped to a wonderful evaluation on an incomplete project)

Now that we STILL have backups at the roundabouts is BAPE willing to admit that flyovers just MAY be warranted?

Its beginning to look more and more like the Barbados Association of Professional Engineers was either

(1) playing politics itself,

(2) being used to further others political ends or

(3) just didn’t know what they were talking about!

Related Link

Owen Arthur Infers Local Barbadian Engineers Are B-Class

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449 responses to “Barbados Association Of Professional Engineers And The ABC Highway”

  1. Redds Avatar
    Redds

    ru4real don’t let these idiots dicourage you, the flyovers will come and it will cost the people of bim even more than before, with thompson bossom buddy Leroy CLICO Parris leading.

  2. Brutus Avatar
    Brutus

    ru4real,

    Are you saying that 3S’s only contribution was supervision of the project? All of the work, including the design, was done by subcontractors? How much did 3S earn for this?

  3. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Redds,

    You are missing the point entirely… this debacle has little to do with flyovers. Whether or not they are necessary, the money wasted through mismanagement of this project (from procurement to execution) could have probably built a flyover or two by now.

    Have never heard or read BAPE criticise flyovers as an option for relieving traffic congestion… all of their statements are recorded on their website for posterity – http://www.bape.org . Here is just one more example of what they said as far back as 2005…

    “BAPE continues to be concerned that a project of such magnitude and cost – “ballpark figure” of BDS$120 Million, would be sanctioned without the benefit of a technical and economic feasibilty study of alternatives.

    While the flyover proposal is but one of several components of the Road Improvement Infrastructure Project which Government intends to award to the firm 3S Structural Steel Solutions LLC, it is likely to represent a substantial proportion of the project’s overall costs.

    Given the scale and scope of the project, BAPE is of the view that a competitive tendering process should have been followed for:

    (i) an initial traffic study to investigate the situation and identify the economic viability of alternative options, and

    (ii) any resulting road improvement projects

    Potential conflicts of interest arise where a firm hired to assess a situation and make recommendations is also awarded a contract to implement those recommendations. BAPE therefore believes that for projects such as this, successor contracts should not be awarded to entities offering consulting services.”

    Incidentally, that position on successor contracts is one held by many banks and financial institutions (…excluding Barbados National Bank of course).

    Now Redds, which one of BAPE’s positions do you disagree with again?

  4. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    … actually David, I recall reading a post here many months ago where a chronology of BAPE’s public statements relating to the project were provided. Perhaps a link to that post would help clarify their position for those who still hold the misconception that they opposed flyovers.

    Claims that BAPE opposed flyovers are clever rhetorical tricks of misdirection and false emphasis. It should be obvious to anyone who reads their positions that they opposed the process followed in selecting a solution and a consultant/contractor.


    MME here are two links which deals with BAPE and their position on the Flyover Project:

    Link One
    Link Two

    David

  5. David Avatar
    David

    We have followed this story about the flyovers from the very start. In fact BU broke the story about Danos who is a former employee of Maybey & Johnson and head of 3S.

    We have listened to Prime Minister Thompson and Minister John Boyce very carefully, what we think we are hearing is a discontinuation of the relationship with 3S under the previous loose relationship. As far

  6. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Thanks David, but this was the specific post I was referring to:

    http://bajan.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/owen-arthur-infers-local-barbadian-engineers-are-b-class/#comment-24011

    You have done an excellent job breaking the Danos story and keeping this discussion going.

  7. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Brutus the designs were done by the contractors 3S .

  8. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    I notice that no one has answered the question .
    What alternative has BAPE offered?

    They haven’t got one hence the about face- they were never against flyovers. LOL.

  9. Brutus Avatar
    Brutus

    ru4real,

    I stand corrected. However what then was Hillis-Carnes’ role on the project?

  10. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @PDC
    Moreso, we in PDC have already gone on public record as saying that – instead of expanding the ABC Highway – a modern effecient railway system should all like now be being installed on the existing Highway from the Airport to Warrens to Speightstown and back and from Warrens to Bridgetown and back.
    —————————————————
    Tell us PDC how would this railway system get over the existing roads?
    A whole bunch of level crossings and lights would certainly improve traffic flow- NOT.

  11. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Also how would this railway cope with the gradients involved along the highway?
    Brutus Hillis Carnes were brought in to test the geology of the highway.

  12. David Avatar
    David

    We wrote a blog wayback on the role Hillis-Carnes played in the ABC Project.

  13. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    ru4real… BAPE is not a consulting firm… their role is not to offer ‘alternatives’. The evaluation of alternatives would be the purview of an engineering study conducted PRIOR to starting a project like this. This study should have been conducted by a consulting engineering firm selected through a competitive tendering process, following which, a separate tender for implementation of the preferred alternative would be issued. The process should also involve some level of public consultation.

    I am pleased that BAPE resisted the temptation of hastily jumping into the debate over whether flyovers were appropriate or not. This is not the way one goes about addressing complex engineering problems. Their concern is, and always has been, ENTIRELY about the process… links to all of their statements on the project are provided above… when your pain has subsided, go and read them again.

    Now for the umpteenth time, both you and Redds, do you disagree with any of the concerns BAPE have expressed regarding the development of this project.

  14. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 23, 2008 at 1:13 pm

    Tell us PDC how would this railway system get over the existing roads?
    A whole bunch of level crossings and lights would certainly improve traffic flow- NOT.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    How did the old railway get across the road by Howell’s Cross Road when it was built?

    …. flyover, …… actually it used to be called a bridge.

    Bajans knew about flyovers and Bridges long before Sir COW announced he wanted to be the first man to build a flyover …. in Barbados.

    I think the railway would be more effective getting people out of and into town rather than following the ABC Highway … so I am thinking more College Savannah to Bridgetown and park and ride ….. and same thing from the North to Bridgetown.

    Who knows, a small mono rail taking up two of the lanes of the ABC Highway might also be considered as a means of linking the two main lines.

    We need to reduce the number of cars and our dependence on OIL.

  15. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 23, 2008 at 1:14 pm

    Brutus Hillis Carnes were brought in to test the geology of the highway.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    They were looking for undergroung caves and voids where the footings for the flyovers would go.

    Guess that could have been done before the hooha about flyovers started …. but then there was the inordinate rush to spend money.

    Wonder if their report could be made public and how far off the highway their study went?

    Would be interesting to know about how water flows underground towards the Belle Pumping Station before sinking drainage wells so close to the Belle.

  16. Waterboy Avatar
    Waterboy

    ru4real // August 23, 2008 at 1:06 pm

    I notice that no one has answered the question .
    What alternative has BAPE offered?

    They haven’t got one hence the about face- they were never against flyovers. LOL.
    ————————————————————
    ru4real,
    I notice that you have not answered the questions :

    1) Was there a tender?

    2) Was there a Request for Proposals?

  17. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    … BAPE is not a consulting firm… their role is not to offer ‘alternatives’.
    ————————————————–

    Then they should shut up and stop making idiots of themselves. Everyone knows they various members of BAPE do own engineering firms and were p…………….off that they didnt get to do the job.

  18. Observing Avatar
    Observing

    I am particularly curious what will happen at the Cable & Wireless junction at Upton.

    The original road design would have left the traffic light there but all of the traffic staying on the highway would have “flown over” on a flyover. This would have meant that very little traffic actually used the traffic light and the overall flow of the highway would not have been disrupted.

    As is now when the light on the highway is red, ALL traffic stops (as it did before) what this means is that traffic will back up at that junction EXACTLY how it did before we spent a couple hundred million dollars. Except now it will back up through a brand new roundabout in front of the polytechnic.

    Given that the PM has categorically said in his budget speech. ‘THERE WILL BE NO FLYOVERS” I’m curious to see how the resolve this one. Or if they have any intention of resolving this one.

  19. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @ john

    Hillis Carnes were brought in correctly in the first instant by 3S.
    Now most reputable construction firms here have followed their example.
    Prior to this construction firms stuck up buildings without taking account of the underlying geology ( hence the Brittains Hill disaster ( nothing to say BAPE?)

  20. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @John
    Bajans knew about flyovers and Bridges long before……..
    ———————————————————
    I see one small railway bridge built 100 years ago by the British and you know all there is to know LOL.

    The Bajan railway was impractical and difficult to maintain thats why it shut down. Passengers had to get off at steep gradients.

    Were you asleep in history class?

  21. David Avatar
    David

    We remain convince that in the Budget 2008 delivered by Prime Minister Thompson he said no flyovers in the context of unraveling the mess created by the 3S affair. Here is what he said in the budget:

    This project, you will recall, was started by a company that no one knew anything about and, apart from information emanating from legal sources in the United Kingdom and Jamaica, we still know little about.

    How could a government let a company start a project based on an artist’s impression? In July, 2006 Three S started construction “on a rolling basis” of road widening for a projected cost of $40,232,432.00. Eight Flyovers were to be constructed again on an artist’s impression for $79,517,659.00. This was a total projected cost of $119, 750,000.00.

    Work started and no contract was signed and, despite the decision of the Cabinet of Barbados, Three S has still not signed a contract. No specifications, no bill of quantities, no working drawings and no contract! From an original projection of $119 million in November 2005, by May 6, 2006 the projection had reached $143,614,460.23 in less than six months. By December 17 2007, the figure for road widening only moved from the original figure of $40 million to a revised figure of $70, 231,220.00 and then to an amazing $117 million. Despite the decision of my Cabinet, Three S is now claiming more.

    Enough is enough! As Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, I am ordering an immediate termination of the contract with Three S; a full investigation of that sordid mess – the terms of which will be set out shortly; and that the Ministry of Transport, Works and International Transport work with the Barbadian contractors to have the road widening completed.

    Furthermore, there will be no flyovers!!

  22. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Mono rails cost approx25 million per km and of course they need to pass over the roads ………sort of flyovers………

    The ABC highway project is not and never was a solution to Bridgetowns traffic woes .
    Its aim is/was to free up the ABC highway.

  23. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    Yes we all heard Mr T grandstanding in the buget speech.

    Now what?

  24. Observing Avatar
    Observing

    David,

    If it was simply in the context of the 3S relationship why not just let the local subcontractors complete the already available designs for flyovers or have local engineers design new ones?

    The man has no vision, and hence he has painted himself into a corner.

  25. NUH LINGA-(The Jamaican Dance) Avatar
    NUH LINGA-(The Jamaican Dance)

    is barbados for sale ??

  26. Observing Avatar
    Observing

    The other question is how much money is it going to cost us to NOT build the flyovers.

    Govt. can’t say that there isn’t a contract. Offer, acceptance consideration are what’s needed for a contract. 3S can show that they were paid for the widening of the road and more than likely have a whole heap of correspondence on the flyover aspect of the project.

    If they don’t sue it will be because Gov’t will have compensated them for loss of profit. So what will it cost the taxpayers to NOT build flyovers that we will end up building in the future?

    Where is WIV when you need him 🙂

  27. art Avatar
    art

    If I was someone who thought about saving money I might be tempted to dig down the road going from Kent to Wildey Texaco and make it into an

    underpass. It would not be unsightly.

    I would place a bridge over top of my lower level road it and make it into an…

    underpass.

    Maybe that’s too cheap though? How much does it cost to rent a backhoe and a truck for a couple of weeks?

  28. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 23, 2008 at 9:38 pm

    @John
    Bajans knew about flyovers and Bridges long before……..
    ———————————————————
    I see one small railway bridge built 100 years ago by the British and you know all there is to know LOL.

    The Bajan railway was impractical and difficult to maintain thats why it shut down. Passengers had to get off at steep gradients.

    Were you asleep in history class?
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The only gradient I heard about where that happened was Consett Cutting.

    If you take a walk along the old train track on the east coast you will see this.

    The gradient through the St. George valley from Bridgetown to Carmichael and from Carmichael to College Savannah was never a problem.

    Didn’t get that in any History Class at school, was told that by old timers, read maps and observed the lay of the land.

    It’s kind of obvious.

    Going North however might be a challenge but I have travelled by train through mountains that are well over 10,000 feet and didn’t once have to get off!! The highest elevation here is just over one tenth of that!!

    Up through the valley to College Savannah, … a piece of cake.

  29. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 23, 2008 at 9:32 pm

    @ john

    Hillis Carnes were brought in correctly in the first instant by 3S.
    Now most reputable construction firms here have followed their example.
    Prior to this construction firms stuck up buildings without taking account of the underlying geology ( hence the Brittains Hill disaster ( nothing to say BAPE?)
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Geologists deal with forces several orders of magnitude higher than any engineer ever sees.

    I think you are confusing disciplines but I agree, and have said as much. Brittons Hill was a disaster waiting to happen. If you look at the 1951 series maps you will that the area was clear.

    I spoke to a working person, probably in their 40’s, who grew up in the area and always knew it was clear. It was known as Atwell Pasture if I remember what I was told correctly.

    The person or persons who gave permissions for buildings to be erected at Brittons Hill needs to be called to account.

    Suspect it wasn’t an Engineer!!

    As to Geologists, …. who listens to them anyway …. look at Greenland.

    Professors Bob Speed, and Hans Machel have been ignored.

    BTW … you don’t happen to know if Hillis Carnes produced any data on the coral cap between the ABC Highway and the Belle, … do you?

    I did hear once, from a pretty reliable source, that it took a matter of hours for the level of the water in the Public Water Supply Well at the Belle to be affected after the build up of water in the Quarry at Green Hill when there was heavy rainfall.

  30. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 23, 2008 at 9:42 pm

    Mono rails cost approx25 million per km and of course they need to pass over the roads ………sort of flyovers………

    The ABC highway project is not and never was a solution to Bridgetowns traffic woes .
    Its aim is/was to free up the ABC highway.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    What sort of monorail are you thinking of when you quote a cost of $25 Million per km? Are you quoting US$ or BDS$?

    I have to admit that I never realised all the money that was spent was only intended to free up the traffic along the ABC highway. Guess I missed that.

    Do you think the Bridgetown traffic woes are lesser or greater than the ABC traffic woes?

  31. David Avatar
    David

    When we spoke to the Sales Director at Mabey & Johnson when this story broke he intimated that the 8 flyovers would have been the beginning of a bigger plan to roll out more flyovers. This is a subject which has never been discussed or confirmed by the previous government but we heard it from one of the companies invited to tender in the road widening part of the project.

  32. Waterboy Avatar
    Waterboy

    ru4real

    … BAPE is not a consulting firm… their role is not to offer ‘alternatives’.
    ————————————————–

    Then they should shut up and stop making idiots of themselves. Everyone knows they various members of BAPE do own engineering firms and were p…………….off that they didnt get to do the job.
    ———————————————————–

    ru4real, did the local or for that matter any engineering companies get an opprotunity to tender for this projetct either through a publicly advertised prequalification process, Request for Proposals or Public Tender?

    Answer the following which you so studiously ignore while introducing red herrings:

    1) Was there a tender?

    2) Was there a Request for Proposals?

    If you can’t answer or the answer is “no” then you should shut up and stop making an idiot of yourself.

  33. Bush tea Avatar
    Bush tea

    Waterboy,

    If you had lost the opportunity of a lifetime to make many millions of dollars by just being an intermediary to a 400 Million dollar scam… would you not be upset with anyone who appears to have been involved in aborting that sugar???

    …don’t be too rough on ru4real and his friends, it must be already difficult for them. The problem with these schemes is that many of these schemers may have already gone ahead and made personal commitments based on their anticipated windfalls….

    ..in time he will get over it.

    As to the alternative…
    Who said that the PM has boxed himself in a corner? or that BAPE was against flyovers? NOT ANYONE THAT READS.

    All that is being requested is a PROPER process, a sensible plan, and transparent award of contracts. If 3S is so great why would they be afraid of open bidding?

    This way, ideas like the UNDERPASS by C&W suggested by ART and other ideas may surface which could possibly end up in a CHEAPER and BETTER solution.

    I am amazed that intelligent Bajans could support an arrangement where a contract could have been awarded SOLELY because a particular company made a former government an ‘offer’ that they seemed unable to refuse….

    ….but then again, maybe intelligent Bajans don’t…

  34. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @all who suggest underpasses.

    They are all more difficult ,disruptive ,expensive and harder to maintain in a tropical climate that over passes.

    That’s why they were not built.

  35. Bush tea Avatar
    Bush tea

    There you go! Mr. ru4real has spoken!

    What tenders What?!!

    What Bids what!??

    What transparency what?!!

    …..When we have such experts among us? I bet this was the ‘process’ used to come up with the flyovers too right Mr. ‘B’?

    ….of course, in normal circumstances everyone would be invited to propose their ‘solutions’, then experts would assess the feasibility of each proposal and between this and the cost of installation, the ‘best solution’ would have been selected.

    ….probably too long winded a process for ru4real…

  36. Waterboy Avatar
    Waterboy

    ru4real, what happen? Can’t answer on the RFP /Tendering question?

  37. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    John
    I have to admit that I never realised all the money that was spent was only intended to free up the traffic along the ABC highway. Guess I missed that.
    —————————————————————

    Yes you did.
    Operation Free Flow was on intended to free up the ABC highway.
    Flyovers are the best solution to this problem.

  38. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    bush tree says
    normal circumstances everyone would be invited to propose their ’solutions’, then experts would assess the feasibility of each proposal and between this and the cost of installation, the ‘best solution’ would have been selected.
    ——————————————————
    Except that no one came up with any solutions and your ‘experts’ are just concerned on how much they can make on any solution ( the best or otherwise)

  39. David Avatar
    David

    @ru4real

    You have become stuck in a position where your tail is showing. What of the argument about process you don’t understand. A responsible government should not award a significant contract the like of the flyover project on the basis of a rolling MOU. Let us agree on this using only common sense. The debate as to whether flyovers is the solution from a functional and or aesthetic point of view will then follow.

  40. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    I understand that there were 8 other proposals made and several companies were approached about the construction of the project.

    The best proposal was accepted and followed through in good faith in a professional manner.

  41. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @David
    A responsible government gets things done for the benefit of its people.All its people. That’s what the former government did. The present government has done nothing to date but demonise the previous administration and illegally stop a project that was near to completion anyway for a bit of political theatre.

  42. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 24, 2008 at 2:32 pm

    John
    I have to admit that I never realised all the money that was spent was only intended to free up the traffic along the ABC highway. Guess I missed that.
    —————————————————————

    Yes you did.
    Operation Free Flow was on intended to free up the ABC highway.
    Flyovers are the best solution to this problem.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    But why only address one aspect of the problem?

    The productive hours lost by Bajans count whether they are stuck in traffic on the ABC or in Town.

  43. David Avatar
    David

    @ru4real?

    Your nebulous response tells a story. Until you bring some more substantive arguments we have to label you a person with an agenda. Of course your response will no doubt pick up on defending yourself on the agenda part but what about bring something more substantive?

  44. Waterboy Avatar
    Waterboy

    ru4real // August 24, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    I understand that there were 8 other proposals made and several companies were approached about the construction of the project.

    The best proposal was accepted and followed through in good faith in a professional manner.
    ———————————————————–
    ru4real, You “understand” there were 8 other proposals? And how and when and by what process were they requested?

    When was the RFP published in the press? That is the question you will never answer because one was never published.

  45. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @ David
    You can label me whatever you like as its your blogg.

    Just because you dont agree with what i say doesnt mean its not true.

  46. ru4real Avatar
    ru4real

    @John
    But why only address one aspect of the problem?

    The productive hours lost by Bajans count whether they are stuck in traffic on the ABC or in Town
    ——————————————————
    Beacuse this was the remit of the government.
    To free up the ABC highway.
    Every traffic congestion problem has to start somewhere and the central main highway is the logical and correct place to do so.It is the main arterial road that has to be rectified first just as in the human body. No uses sticking a band aid on your finger on if your wrists are slashed.

  47. David Avatar
    David

    @ru4real

    Nice dodge, we want to correct our previous statement that we are labeling YOU. We are labeling your comments which are laced with inexactitudes. Please remember that we are not dummies, give us some credit.

  48. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 24, 2008 at 5:11 pm

    @John
    But why only address one aspect of the problem?

    The productive hours lost by Bajans count whether they are stuck in traffic on the ABC or in Town
    ——————————————————
    Beacuse this was the remit of the government.
    To free up the ABC highway.
    Every traffic congestion problem has to start somewhere and the central main highway is the logical and correct place to do so.It is the main arterial road that has to be rectified first just as in the human body. No uses sticking a band aid on your finger on if your wrists are slashed.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Where does the traffic that congests the ABC highway come from?

  49. John Avatar
    John

    ru4real // August 24, 2008 at 5:11 pm

    It is the main arterial road that has to be rectified first just as in the human body. No uses sticking a band aid on your finger on if your wrists are slashed.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I am no doctor and too much blood makes me giddy but from all the hospital pictures I have watched on TV here is my considered opinion.

    Before I made any attempt to mend the slashed artery in the wrist I would first apply a tourniquet well before the wrist, maybe up by the bicep.

    This would allow me first to reduce or stop the flow of blood and thus keep my head from getting giddy. I would also be able to see the damage.

    I would then call a doctor or somebody who actually knew how to mend a slashed artery.

    Who knows, by the time the doctor came the reduced pressure might have allowed the blood to clot and the damaged artery to heal itself.

    … on second thoughts perhaps I should call the doctor first, then apply the tourniquet!!

    Disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor and this procedure should not be attempted on my say so.

  50. Q Avatar
    Q

    STEUPSE !!!

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