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“I concluded then that you don’t die because you are sick, you die as the Bible says in Ezekiel 18 because YOU SIN! Apoptosis is the methodology.”
GP, your medical expertise is beyond question, and I have learnt much from your contributions in this thread, but wha kinda statement is dat?… you and your Pathologist were unable to determine cause of death, so the poor guy MUST have simply died of “old age”. After all… he was 80, and had to die eventually anyway. Look, if you doan know, say you doan know… or say you doan feel like wasting anymore time looking for the real cause, but doan come wid no “old age” apoptosis medical mumbo jumbo. I hope you didn’t write Ezekiel 18 on the certificate validating cause of death.
Shouldn’t we accept that there are ailments that medical science is yet to fully understand, diagnose and therefore treat? The field of gerontology is still in its infancy… nuff work and ‘secrets’ to unlock before the inevitable ‘end’.
By the way… why do other animals and plants die?
…and BT, 82? Unless you plan on blogging in Phase 2, you must currently be in your late 70s 🙂
Just imagine we wanted to warn the public in this blog that any benefits of ginkgo to improving memory is purely in the placebo effect and it has resorted to this litany? lol
Look we have been enlightened by the discussion so far but should we not separate the issues 1)prescribed drugs 2)off the shelf drugs 3) designer drugs and the 4) Bush Tea type remedies? LOL …man that is a straight fast ball we ain’t got no time with googly and the like…lol.
Micro-Mock Engineer asked
By the way… why do other animals and plants die?
The answer is that apoptosis is the methodology! Theologically it is because of the curse on the earth brought in my sin as taught in the Genesis 3 account- if you believe the Bible.
I sincerely believe that all death as the Bible says in Ezekiel 18 is mainly because of SIN! Apoptosis is the methodology.”
You asserted that “you and your Pathologist were unable to determine cause of death, so the poor guy MUST have simply died of “old age”. After all… he was 80, and had to die eventually anyway.” That is what we have grown and taught to believe. I have given you both my theological view. And over the last 30 years ago, the scientists have been researching apoptosis.
I lost all my info on it two years ago on a computer crash and wipe out. I had spent months trying to unravel the literature to present the concept simply to some medical students I was assigned to teach some pathology in the Cooks islands.
You wrote “Look, if you doan know, say you doan know… or say you doan feel like wasting anymore time looking for the real cause, but doan come wid no “old age” apoptosis medical mumbo jumbo.” No I am not like that. I will tell you I don’t know if I don’t know. Honest. But the apoptosis concept seems to make a lot of sense.
I agree with you that there are ailments that medical science is yet to fully understand, diagnose and therefore treat, and that there is “nuff work and ‘secrets’ to unlock before the inevitable ‘end’” but what the scientists have found about apoptosis ties in with with what we understand about cancer and causation of disease. Its very interesting, but difficult to understand……..at least it was for me. Maybe I will look for a simple note for you.
David
Whereas you wanted to warn the public in this blog that any benefits of ginkgo to improving memory is purely in the placebo effect, the level of the debate as transcended to a high level because of the issues raised and discussed, and the quality of the debaters.
I blog on a forum for medical students and the debate does not ever get past the ankle level.
Let me state that I am not necessarily agreeing with you that “any benefits of ginkgo to improving memory is purely in the placebo effect.” Many will disagree on you with that. The study that was cited by the BBC was not at all conclusive. We might have to get back to that after some research or consultation.
Re Bush Tea type remedies, I pointed out that there are benefits and side effects of these agents, just as they are for all xenobiotics (foreign chemicals entering the body).
Whereas I am quite willing to throw all cawmere brand bush teas in the careenage, we must agree that in all parts of the world people are benefiting from teas brewed from local herbs.
My caveat is that when such teas are brewed there are often alkaloids and tannins in the brew in addition to the active agent. We have to take that in consideration.
In most modern drugs (you can call them designer drugs) the goal has been to remove as many compounds from the preparation as possible and leave only the active agent. For example oil of wintergreen (lin meth sal) is an extract from a plant. We have added a side chain to this compound to get a white precipitate- the popular and ubiquitous ASPIRIN.
The pharmaceutical industry is always seeking herbs that they can so modify so that they can reap large profits, as stated by one poster. These become prescribed drugs or natural supplements according to who packages them and how. Also depending on how much the original substance is modified.
In summary
1) prescribed drugs or POM (prescription only medicine) are made by drug companies and ought to be only prescribed by doctors. In the USA a lot of POM is available over the counter, even though many of these drugs have serious side effects and drug interactions.
2) off the shelf drugs may be POM as noted above, or natural products also marketed as food supplements, and usually recommended by naturopaths. Much has been learned about these agents by scientific study. Consequently, the benefits and toxicities have been studied.
3) designer drugs refers to the fact that in modern drug design rather than giving agents empirically scientists have designed agents to either block or stimulate specific receptor sites in the body. Oil of winter green and aspirin were initially used because it was accidentally found that soldiers running through the bush who came into contact with the winter green plant had a reduction in pain. That was empirical. Now we know exactly how aspirin works and much about it so that we can use it more effectively.
The aim of modern drugs is to hit only (or mainly) the target organ we want to hit. Hence flomax the alpha 1a antagonist is much more specific in hitting the fibres around the prostate fibres near the bladder neck than phentolamine, which we used in the 70’s. :
4) Bush Tea type remedies; discussed at length already
David that is my straight fast ball. Hope that helps to clarify things.
I believe that you your expectations in chosing this topic went beyond expectations LOL. The debate was spirited and fun. I take my responsibility in this corner of the blog very seriously Sir!
David
Well David I am glad you are no longer confuse as was indicated before even those I did not think my post indicated such. Just as a general rule take studies with a pinch of salt knowing as is the case today another study would come out to discredit the previous studies leaving the public very confused.
I personally believe it is nothing more a marketing stragety to
1/Boost sales for fledging products
2/Discredit the competition and of course introduced new products on the markets.
I am sure GP will have something to say about that.
Me personally I take p/drugs only when absolutely necessarily which is far and few in between knowing the toxins they contain including side effects. The last time I was in the hospital was in my teens re hip injury playing football.
Last checkup the doctor told me I’m in good health. Never been sick except for low blood count. Never had a childhood illness. Use herbal/supplements when need to.
Devil
In my very personal opinion, I stay very far away from any of the following;
osteopaths, naturopaths, acupuncturists, ayurvedic medics, chiropractics, homeopaths, traditional chinese medics, reiki practitioners, psychics, reflexologists, iridologists, aromatherapists, feng shui practitioners, herbalists and faith healers. This list is not exhaustive as there are quacks I have not yet heard of but they are out there.
I don’t have much need for most of the above either.
Georgie Porgie
Your apology is accepted.
Friends
The mechanism of action of ginkgo is believed to be produced by its functions as a neuroprotective agent, an antioxidant, a free-radical scavenger, a membrane stabilizer, and an inhibitor of platelet-activating factor via the terpene ginkgolide B.
Other pharmacologic effects include the following: endothelium relaxation mediated by inhibition of 3′,5′-cyclic GMP (guanosine monophosphate) phosphodiesterase, inhibition of age-related loss of muscarinergic cholinoceptors and a-adrenoceptors; and stimulation of choline uptake in the hippocampus. Ginkgo extract also has been shown to inhibit beta-amyloid deposition.
This says that this substance is a turpene.
It stops amyloid being deposited in the brain. (Amyloid is a bad boy)
It acts by stopping the loss of norepinephrine (a adrenergic) receptors and other receptors in the brain. among other things.
So David this agent is a sort of natural designer drug if you please.
Ginkgo biloba leaf extract is the most widely sold phytomedicine in Europe, where it is used to treat the symptoms of early-stage Alzheimer’s disease, vascular dementia, peripheral claudication, and tinnitus of vascular origin.
It also is one of the 10 best-selling herbal medications in the United States.
There are over 120 published clinical studies on ginkgo, primarily from Europe. The standardized preparation of Ginkgo biloba extract is EGb 761.
In the United States, ginkgo is classified as a dietary supplement; the American brands that are comparable with EGb 761 that have been subjected to clinical studies are Ginkgold, Ginkoba, and Ginkai.
Standardized preparations contain 24 percent ginkgo flavonoid glycosides, 6 percent terpene lactones, and no more than 5 parts per million ginkgolic acids.
Note it is not a pure substance it contains
flavonoid glycosides
terpene lactones
ginkgolic acids
This is in keeping with what we were saying about natural products all along. They are difficult to purify.
On side effects
The most important potential clinical problem with ginkgo is caused by its inhibition of the platelet-activating factor; this makes the use of ginkgo in conjunction with warfarin aspirin, or other antiplatelet agents a matter of clinical judgment.
A recent safety study of the interaction of ginkgo and warfarin showed no change in the international normalized ratio. Ginkgo should be discontinued between 36 hours and 14 days before surgery, based on either pharmacokinetics or consensus opinion.
Herbal medications that may increase the risk of bleeding if used concurrently with ginkgo include the following: feverfew, garlic, ginseng, dong quai, red clover, and other natural coumarins.
Several case reports of bleeding complications associated with ginkgo use include subdural hematoma, subarachnoid hemorrhage, intracerebral hemorrhage, and hyphema; the causality of these events has not been established.
The unprocessed ginkgo leaf contains ginkgolic acids that are toxic.
Hypersensitivity to ginkgo preparations is a contraindication to use.
Ginkgo is generally well tolerated, with side effects being rare, usually mild, and including nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, headaches, dizziness, palpitations, restlessness, weakness, or skin rashes. Although no studies have been performed to support any restrictions on the use of ginkgo during pregnancy or lactation, it seems prudent not to administer ginkgo in the absence of any data.
As we were saying ginko is a xenobiotic to our bodies, and behaves just like a designer drug or other agent- it has its side effects and its benefits. Its judicious use would be along the lines of any medication. That is always weigh the benefit against the side effects for each particular patient.
Dosage
For patients who have memory problems and dementia, the dosage of ginkgo is 120 to 240 mg daily, taken in two to three doses.
The dosage for patients who have tinnitus and peripheral vascular disease is no more than 160 mg per day, taken in two or three doses.
An initial period of six to 12 weeks is recommended to assess the effectiveness of ginkgo, although results have been seen as early as four weeks.
David it seems that the study that you cited from the BBC is flawed or biased. Both the dosage and the time period were on the low end according to other studies.
http://ageing.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/30/6/523.pdf
Some studies that I have read say one thing others say the oposite. But when the studies are compared they were done under different conditions of dose, age, presence or lack of illness. Some of the studies are purely not very scientific.
However…..
The study to be done as cited below is more like it. This should turn up more significant answers.
Note these key words
multi-center,
six-year,
randomized,
double-blind,
placebo-controlled trial
2,000 patients
The National Institutes of Health and the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine have sponsored a multi-center, six-year, randomized, two-arm, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of 2,000 patients.
The trial will evaluate the safety and efficacy of ginkgo in preventing dementia and age-related cognitive decline and is currently underway and headed by investigators at the University of Pittsburgh.
Another trial is underway at the Oregon Health Sciences Center, Portland, to study the effects of ginkgo on cognitively intact elderly patients older than 85 years, and the effect on their progression to mild cognitive impairment.
This study will use volumetric quantitative magnetic resonance imaging measures of brain size and peripheral oxidative markers.
cherry2enpowered is correct in opining that as a general rule some studies should be taken with a pinch of salt because many papers are written so that staff can keep their jobs at universities, or to prove the bias of the investigator, and the scientific method might be disregarded all together.
In the case of ginkgo boosting sales for a fledging product is not the case as ginkgo is a best seller worldwide.
New drugs are usually introduced onto the market after clinical trials. Unfortunately we are dealing with sinful men, who often allow greed to cloud their judgement in making these very highly ethical decisions.
The public can easily be very confused by statistical or scientific data mainly because they have not been trained to evaluate such. The media then add their ignorance to the situation to further confuse the public and cause mass hysteria.
Hence the value of BU where we can hotly debate the issues and educate and re-educate each other while engaging in some good Bajan banter at the same time.
Prescription drugs should be used only when absolutely necessarily because they are all potential poisons just as are herbal/supplements. And staying away from strange practitioners who can not explain their practice on the lines of basic medical sciences is most sensible.
We are on the same page Sir.
cherry 2 said
I personally believe it is nothing more a marketing stragety to
1/Boost sales for fledging products
2/Discredit the competition and of course introduced new products on the markets.
GP said
In the case of ginkgo boosting sales for a fledging product is not the case as ginkgo is a best seller worldwide.
——————
I was referring to studies in general.
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