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[…] dummidumbwit wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerpt Source: BBC Website Posted as a public service announcement to the BU family. […]
I always thought that white dude in the nature’s discount ads was too good to be true.
I told my wife that time and again. He always appear to reading the hand outs from whatever company he buys his stuff from. He does not have a clue what is in the garbage he gets foolish bajans to buy.
Only in Barbados.
Once a white man or woman says it is so, black Bajans line to give them their money.
Fortunately I am not one of the stupid ones.
BU,
I see that you are keeping up your attacks on white businesspeople in Barbados.
I’m not defending them but it is interesting how you single out ONE business but don’t mention the scores of others selling the same product.
Looks like a poorly disguised attempt to attack someone based on his RACE as opposed to the PRODUCT he is selling.
And by the way, why do we have to rely on tests done in London? Who’s to say that the constitution of the average Bajan is the same as that of the average Londoner? We should be rounding up people and conducting our own tests and experiments on them.
I know a certain hotelier from Inch Marlowe that I would to jam some needles into… for scientific research only, let me hasten to add.
YY
CORRECTION: “I know a certain hotelier from Inch Marlowe that I would love to jam some needles into… for scientific research only, let me hasten to add.”
No attack on anyone KK. Nature’s Club as you know is the most visible and advertised health shop. We have deep respect for Nick Kelly and his entrepreneurial skills. Most Barbadian businessmen should learn from him.
YY
I didn’t think that BU is attacking anyone based on their race or on the product that they are selling. Seems that BU merely published an article that he copied from a BBC source.
There has been much hype about the use of ginko in dementia. The product is sold in Barbados, as well as in other parts of the world. BU has every right to publish the article for the probable benefit of Bajans.
To write “Who’s to say that the constitution of the average Bajan is the same as that of the average Londoner? We should be rounding up people and conducting our own tests and experiments on them” is VERY SILLY, since it implies that we ought to recreate the wheel and by “rounding up people and conducting our own tests and experiments on them” to prove or disprove everything that is accepted in Medicine.
Carson C. Cadogan
I don’t know who the white dude in the nature’s discount ads is, and just as you point out that “He does not have a clue what is in the garbage he gets foolish bajans to buy” how do you know that your physician knows what is in the preparation that you get, when you present your prescription to your pharmacist. Both the man at nature’s discount and your pharmacist and your doctor should read the package handouts of the preparations with which they deal. No one knows everything, and so much is changing daily.
I well remember our grannies giving us “garbage” in the various bush teas we drank in the 50’s including the Senecio species that was proven to give veno occlusive disease of the liver.
The article says that SOME STUDIES HAVE REPORTED BENEFITS.
The article says that one six month study using the relatively small sample of 176 persons with mild to moderate dementia showed no difference to placebo.
Question is, was 120mg ginko daily an adequate dose? Was most of this dose eliminated in the liver during its first pass through this organ, and therefore did not reach its target organ in the brain? Might a better result be obtained if the drug is given by a different route of administration? How does the results in this study differ from the other studies that claim to have shown a benefit?
There seems to be INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION IN THIS REPORT to allow medical illiterates to “run their mouths” on the mater as though they have verbal diarhoea.
By the way, I have no interest in ginko, or Nature’s club or any other health stores
My biggest problem with supplements is the fact that most of the claims they make can not be independently verified.
They are no scientific studies surrounding their wild claims.
I think that this is reason that CBC now has a disclaimer which accompanies these ads. nowadays.
My biggest problem with supplements is the fact that most of the claims they make can not be independently verified.
They are no scientific studies surrounding their wild claims.
=================================
Actually many of the supplements are well described in texts used by naturopathic doctors. These texts are written exactly like a pharmacological text.
The Canadian College of Nauropaths offered a course in Naturopathic Medicine in 1998 (which I took) in which they produced a manual which had reviewed the world literature on about 60 of the most commonly used herbs. The manual includes copious references to double blind cross over studies and clinical trials on many of these agents, and in some the mechanisms of action have even been illucidated.
Since I left it at home, I cant quote from it. But it will show for example that saw palmetto berry actually has compnents that have the same mechanism of the “terides” on the market for treatment of prostate hypertrophy.
It is noteworthy that many of these agents are used in Europe.
The major problem with these agents are that the doses might be inadequate.
Also note that St Johns wort behaves exactly as the class of MAOI antidepressants and are very dangerous. I think that this preparation ought not to be sold in Barbados over the counter or as it is in several MLM programs.
Never heard of naturopathic medicine before so after checking the internet I came across the following interesting site.
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/naturopathy.html
In essence this states that “…naturopathy’s philosophy is simplistic and that its practices are riddled with quackery.” Not being medically trained I really cannot argue for or against but it’s good to hear all sides.
We are here arguing about the scientific facts of one product. I can see some sort of jealousy emanating from the competition “placebo”. This scenario resembles political strategist who are paid to convey what the payer wants.
We can go a bit further to question the medical prescribed drugs and ask ourselves what are the complications by taking them. We take medication for Hypertension and we create problems such as Coughing, abdominal pain, constipation, diarrhea, dizziness, fatigue, headache, loss of taste, loss of appetite, nausea and vomiting, easy bruising or bleeding, chest pain, chills, difficulty breathing, severe dizziness or fainting, fever, numbness or tingling in the hands or feet, rash, and a sore or swollen throat. In rare instances, liver dysfunction and skin yellowing (jaundice).
What I can state openly, herbal drugs don’t caused as much side-effects as medical prescribed drugs.
Doctors state you should not use Epsom salts, but our fore parents say otherwise by living longer. Probably, doctors are protecting their business by telling patients not to use Epsom salts.
A personal testimonial.
I have used Ginko Biloba for a long time as a natural remedy for Tinnitus [continuous ringing in the ears], from which I have suffered for many years. I can certainly testify that my tinnitus is reduced whenever I take Ginko.
As to its other benefits, I can’t say, but it works against tinnitus.
Never heard of naturopathic medicine before so after checking the internet I came across the following interesting site.
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Seems that you was only interested in finding only a negative site. But naturopathic medicine is really complementary or alternative medicine. Simply put, it is medicine utilising only natural grown items.
Remember granny giving you bush tea and various bush remedies.
When I was young. A one and a half inch in diameter stake when through my foot and deep into the ground. My mother took up the phone and I was thinking that she was calling the ambulance, but nay, she was calling my grandmother who arrived with endless bushes that she placed over the stove, heat some oils and them tied the bushes on my foot. Within two weeks, my foot was healed.
Today, if something like that had happened, I would be at FMH to get x-rays, blood tests and stitches and a cool $200.00 deleted from my wallet. I will then be given a prescription for medication costing another large chunk of my depleted funds. Forget to tell you. The doctor will tell me to come for a check-up to further rape my almost empty pockets.
Carson C. Cadogan // June 16, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Only in Barbados.
Once a white man or woman says it is so, black Bajans line to give them their money.
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I so agree, it is just amazing
Iain Edghill
I will ask my naturopath cousin for his opinion on the mechanism of action of Ginko Biloba as a remedy for Tinnitus.
Tell me Why
You seem to have the wrong idea about what a “placebo”is. First the word “placebo” is Latin for I will please.
A placebo is a substance or procedure which a patient accepts as a medicine or therapy but which has no specific therapeutic activity for the condition. Any effect is thought to be based on the power of suggestion.
A placebo effect or placebo response is a therapeutic and healing effect of an inert medicine or ineffective therapy, or more generally is the psychosocial aspect of every medical treatment.
In the study cited by BU a placebo was given to compare the effect of the ginko whose efficacy was being tested.
All chemical agents or xenobiotics whether they be medical prescribed drugs or “natural products” are capable of causing side effects or toxicity. ALL!.
It is absolutely false to say that herbal drugs don’t caused as much side-effects as medical prescribed drugs. The use of senecio species in bush teas were discontinued in Jamaica and other Caribbean islands in the 50’s when Professor Brass at UWI discovered that they caused veno occlusive disease of the liver. St John’s wort is as dangerous to use as MAOI antidepressants, especially if used concomitantly with Bovril, yeast cheese and a host of other products.
It is bovine excrement of the highest order to suggest that the use of Epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) is responsible for longevity, as many factors are involved.
The precise mechanism of action for magnesium is uncertain, although it has been used as a laxative interalia for ages. Abuse of magnesium sulphate or Epsom salts toxicity also called hypomagnesemia may develop as early as three to four days and may present with neurological effects such as muscle irritability, clonic twitching and tremors, and low calcium and potassium levels–dangers in themselves.
As plasma magnesium rises above 4 mEq/liter, the deep tendon reflexes are first decreased and then disappear as the plasma level approaches 10 mEq/liter. At this level respiratory paralysis may occur. Heart block also may occur at this or lower plasma levels of magnesium. Serum magnesium concentrations in excess of 12 mEq/L may be fatal. Magnesium acts peripherally to produce vasodilation. With low doses only flushing and sweating occur, but larger doses cause lowering of blood pressure.
This is the reason that doctors wisely advise against the use of Epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) willy nilly. It has nothing to do with protecting business. You are of course welcome to drink it in high doses and give the pathologists and morticians some work.
We all remember granny giving bush tea and various bush remedies. I have also pointed out the dangers of doing this above
Whereas it is definitely true that some placebo effect or even some empirical value was observed in the use of these agents, problems arise in proportion to the length of time these teas are distilled, the temperatures reached, and the substances extracted from the brew. It has been shown by scientific herbal practitioners that other substances beside the active agent are also extracted. These other substances can be very dangerous as was the case with the senecio alkaloids.
Some herbal extracts are thus relatively expensive because of the difficulty in purifying them.
…and you expect me to argue with you. I am speaking from the man in the street language. All this medical language, (As plasma magnesium rises above 4 mEq/liter, the deep tendon reflexes are first decreased and then disappear as the plasma level approaches 10 mEq/liter.) means nothing to me.
I am dealing with the poor man remedy that were used years ago. Bajans scarcely visit doctors, yet our mortality rate were lower than it is today. We are seeing lots of deaths in the 10 – 30 year old gap.
Regardless to all your medical terminology I am still insisting that medical prescribed drugs do more damage than cure, no wonder you are give medicine to cure your immediate problem and another medicine to cure the side effects and the problem continues until your number is called.
Tell me Why
You are welcome to your bush remedies. It’s your body. However, you are absolutely incorrect to believe that our mortality rate has gone up over the last 40 years. At the start of the 20th century our infant mortality rate was 400/1000 live births, by 1960 it was about 90/1000 and today it is 15/1000. I do not have historical data on life expectancy (which is presently at 73 years) or on mortality rate. However, it is assured that should more people follow your advice that your dire prediction will become a fact. Isn’t it odd that the NIS raised the age of retirement?
I also loved my granny dearly but then she always promoted scientific investigation and bemoaned the fact that the opportunity to study beyond reading, writing and arithmetic was denied her in those bad, old days.
David,
I hope that this article is not a back door of attacking Bush tea….LOL
I hope that as man, if you want to put some licks in me that you should just come out with a frontal attack. 😉
Why pick on a bush? There is nothing more potent that the over prescribed legal drugs being dispensed daily by doctors and even cashiers over the counter.
No doubt many drugs have been used to great advantage in many cases, however the culture of ‘live as you like’ and then treat the resulting consequences with a convenient drug is a major problem……. no wonder our children seem unable to avoid the temptation to turn to the illegal equivalents….
on another matter…
David, do you think that it may be useful to have at least one item per week that highlights a POSITIVE Bajan attribute that we could be proud of?
…I have been trying to come up with some, but it ain’t easy…..
Tell me Why
No I don’t expect you to argue with me. I expect you to go look up what you don’t understand on Google before you make yourself look like a total idiot in the forum.
FYI Epsom salts is magnesium sulphate. Vets give it to pigs, and so did we at home.
Epsom salts or magnesium sulphate is a POOR poor man remedy. They are better alternatives today for use as laxatives.
Bajans ought to visit doctors. The provision to do so free at the cost of service was instituted on September 1 1985.
Your ignorance of the lowering of the infant mortality rate, and death rate of citizens in the age group 10 – 30 has the dimensions of an abyss. Why don’t you do like the “Devil” and look up our health indices.
Whereas ALL medication do cause side effects medical prescribed drugs do not do more damage than cure. The art of using any chemical agent in medicine is to weigh the balance between the good it does, and its toxic effects. Because of this many useful drugs have become obsolete.
the “Devil”
I think our infant mortality rate is less than 15/1000.It used to be in the 70’s
BT give us credit that if we want to cuss you we are capable of doing it face to face. Remember that BU’s existence is owed to the void which traditional media provides.
But we do write positive blogs the last one being the traditional value ladened Lowdown Hoad and the source of inspiration he provides to the BU household..
Getting data (as opposed to opinion) on anything in Barbados is as difficult as Chinese algebra. Our infant mortality rate may be as low 10/1000. Just to provide a comparison, Cuba (6.5) Canada (4.82) USA (6.3) Angola (192.5) India (57.92).
Bush Tea
I don’t think that we must always put licks in Bush tea with a frontal attack — but I believe that you deserve some licks, just in case ………. Just because you from cawmere LOL LOL
My esteemed friend, you wrote
There is nothing more potent that the over prescribed legal drugs being dispensed daily by doctors and even cashiers over the counter.
Cashiers dispensing drugs over the counter is reprehensible……and so is over prescribed legal drugs.
I find it abhorrent the amount of drugs that we and the Europeans consider prescription only medicine that is available freely over the counter in the USA (and dispensed over the counter) as you point out. This is because of the drug interactions of many of these agents, e.g the “tidiness” like Cimetidine, Ranitidine and the “azoles.”
I don’t agree with you that this is any excuse for our children to turn to the illegal equivalents….
I believe that a man of your caliber should be fined for writing such on this forum. So you are hereby fined 12 fried flying fish, 200 fish cakes and some pickled breadfruit forthwith!
On the other hand ……your suggestion that it may be useful to have at least one item per week that highlights a POSITIVE Bajan attribute that we could be proud of is a great one………….or just highlight some simple things that we did in the pass that were pleasant and memorable……………….such as long walks on Sunday evenings after Sunday school………courting………the annual agricultural exhibition ………..going to 1:30 at the Olympic to see a western…………mash trashing …….whatever
The Devil wrote
Getting data (as opposed to opinion) on anything in Barbados is as difficult as Chinese algebra.
You may be right there. Maybe it was easy for me because of my position when I was home. But when I was home , our infant mortality rate was very low, so was our maternal mortality rate. In fact it should comfort you to know that our health indices are those of a developed country rather than that of a developing country. Also it is far easier to get free medical attention in Barbados, than to get attention for which you pay through the nose (via your insurance) in the USA.
Yes….. it can be better too. If only……………
A quick aside before it is forgotten.
Bush Tea mentioned and Georgie Porgie alluded to, something Barbadians can be “proud” of.
I would say “good manners” generally with the older generation. I am still amazed – but delighted – that older people on boarding ZRs – public transport – say good morning to all and sundry, as if it is the most natural thing in the world.
It is a delight.
In Europe it does not happen. There is generally silence on public transport. In the bigger cities, any interaction even eye contact is generally avoided.
I recall walking in the valleys of Southern Germany – Bavaria – and everyone you met would always speak…without exception.
It added a gentle touch to life and was a delight.
I put “good manners” up there, generally from older Bajans, it can give a glad to be alive feeling, and a cheerful start to the day.
Epsom salts or magnesium sulphate is a POOR poor man remedy. They are better alternatives today for use as laxatives.
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By your arguments, I can see that you are a medical professional, thus your defending prescribed drugs.
You talk about checking GOOGLE for information, but my friend, here in Barbados with the amount of people reaching 100 years, no Google can give information why these people live so long. Come spend some time in Barbados and ask the many seniors about the old remedies and you will be surprise. Are you saying that these centenarians are pigs, since you have the medical terminologies to every remedy?
Georgie Porgie. Have you heard about Dialose, Surfak, Colace or DSS laxatives? Or I can use the generic term Docusate. These are all societal drugs that the poor man cannot afford, but yet can cause damage to the liver etc. It is a known fact that Epsom salts is still being used as an Emollient – stool softener that would allow stool to pass through the colon and out the rectum….and yes you can Google it. Many seniors use the ‘poor-man laxative’ once or twice a month without problems.
I can go a tab further and speak about blood pressure medication that ease one problem and escalate into other major problems like liver, kidney, prostate and other related problems. I ain’t a medical guru like you, but I can speak with conviction regarding these drugs that you are hiding the real dangers. Look at these prescribed drugs like Beta blockers (olol); ACE inhibitors – (pril) or ARG – (sartan) and the list goes on. All these products you are defending cause more damage in the long run. Cannot remember my fore parents using such drugs, but yet we see them living longer. I hear about garlic, celery, papaw, etc etc.
So my friend GP. I prefer reality instead of all the medical hogwash that killing civilization.
Tell me Why
If you will read my posts again you will find that I have not defended prescription drugs per se.
If you will read my posts again you will find that I have said that I went so far as to take a course from the Canadian College of Naturopaths on 60 commonly used herbs and that the manual I read set out the information according to the parameters used in standard Pharmacology texts………after the authors had done a thorough search of the world literature on these agents.
You will note that I made the effort to KNOW so that I can speak about it.
If you will read my posts again you will find that I have said that that saw palmetto berry actually has components that have the same mechanism of the “terides” on the market for treatment of prostate hypertrophy. I have myself used saw palmetto berry for this purpose along with plenty of red ripe tomatoes for the lycopenes.
.
If you will read my posts again you will find that I have noted that many herbs are used in Europe. In fact some are on the German & British formulae.
You said “no Google can give information why these people live so long”. You will note that I said that longevity is a mutifactorial issue. I never sent you to google the reasons for the longevity of Bajans. What is clear is that the longevity of folk around the world is generally due to increased medical care- including the advent of vaccines, antibiotics and blood tranfusions etc.
I never said that our centenarians are pigs, but I did give you the caveats or possible side effects of using for epsom salts or magnesium sulphate, and I did point out that ALL XENOBIOTICS i.e all chemicals that we put in our bodies have potential side effects.
My discourse has been very clear. I lived for 51 of my 56 years in Barbados, and trained and practiced medicine in Barbados, and know as much about local remedies as you do.
I have given tumeric to a certain group of public servants for pain- as advocated by the manual of the Canadian College of Naturopaths with good effect. These chaps were having stomach problems with NSAIDS.
I have regular discussions with my cousin who practices a variety of alternative medicine modalities, and when I get the chance I read up on the pharmacology of herbs.
I have sought by my posts to educate and enlighten the BU readership. Perhaps you should open your mind and be prepared to learn more than what you think you know, or do know.
For those of you who are open minded one of the reasons we no longer used the senecio species for bush teas in the islands any longer, is because of the findings that they cause veno occlusive disease of the liver. That is it blocks up the veins in the liver. Again be very careful with St John’s wort.
Whereas there are benefits to be derived from the use of alternative preparations, they must be treated as potential poisons in the same way as the medications prescribed for you by your doctor.
All chemicals have something called a THERAPEUTIC INDEX. This is a measure of the degree of danger of using the agent compared with the benefits of using the agent.
I believe that I also stated that the major issue with the alternative preparations sold in health shops is that the DOSES may be TOO LOW, as the manufacturers seek to maximize profits. This was one of the caveats in the manual of the Canadian College of Naturopaths. So stick with the better companies
What is clear is that the longevity of folk around the world is generally due to increased medical care- including the advent of vaccines, antibiotics and blood tranfusions etc.
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GP, don’t think that I am not gaining knowledge from your articles since I acknowledged from the outset that you are medically inclined. So I must say thanks for your professional input. But it would be also amiss of me not to rub shoulders with some of your strength regarding prescribed medication. This bring me back to your above statement. The longevity of people is not based on the present day health scene but the quality of health due these folks using good food from the land and yes, bush teas and shark oil, caster oil and the easing of the bowels, thanks to epsom salts. I am positive that people born after the 1980’s and 1990’s reaching a century will reduce significantly. This can be blamed with prescribed drugs with underlying problems. Anyway, thanks for your views, but let’s agree to disagree.
However, you are absolutely incorrect to believe that our mortality rate has gone up over the last 40 years
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I am a bit scared communicating with The Devil, but being a brave star I must make my deliberations. Your statistics are for births, which I can concur with you since births were done by mid wives who are not qualified in medicine, yet were able to deliver babies without complications. My statistics are based on the older generations reaching a ripe old age without modern prescribed medicine.
Tell me Why
I am glad that you are gaining knowledge from my articles, because I deem BU as an opportunity and a responsibility to serve my people.
I want you to understand that I appreciate dearly the views of our forefathers on all matters. I have never been one to rush to throw out the old and grasp the new willy nilly.
Our grandparents believed in shark oil. Today we make a fuss in the profession and talk about deep sea fish oils and omega fatty acids. You & I will say. Chupse all o we grow up pun seven seas cod liver oil pun a morning (with or without dat piece of orange.) Our grandparents were ahead of the game. Seven seas cod liver is an example of deep sea fish oils. Great stuff
I know too about caster oil and epsom salts for easing the bowels. I have tried to tell you the side effects of Epsom salts. That’s why we don’t use it as much today. I have also tried to tell you the difficulties and dangers of using bush teas, because of the difficulties in excluding certain alkaloids and tannins in these substances.
Our fore parents also used small doses of Epsom salts for treating hypertension. We now have better agents that we can better control. Trust me. Magnesium toxicity is not easy!
You cannot be positive that people born after the 1980’s and 1990’s reaching a century will reduce significantly. One of the factors for the longevity of elderly people all over the world is that they worked harder and exercised more- whether it was in their manual work, in walking or riding long distances, and eating simple foods like yams, more fish, much less fatty foods including that in meat etc. Bush tea is not a food or food supplement.
The advent of vaccines especially tetanus toxoid has saved untold lives- as many of our fore parents laboured out of doors. The advent of antibiotics actually irradicated deaths via tb and other related lung diseases, such that by my time I have never seen a case of tb in Barbados.
FYI the advent of modern drugs, vaccines and blood transfusions is universally accepted as the turning point in changing the longevity of people all over the world. All the data in countries so indicate.
Many of the siblings of our aged folk died before the advent of vaccines, antibiotics and blood tranfusions etc. Those who survived- our current centurions- exhibited the “survival of the fittest.”
With respect to the possible decrease in longevity of those born after 1966 we cant blame it objectively on prescribed drugs because many have not taken much drugs yet.
Most men for example don’t get to the doctor until after age 50 unless they got into a major accident or have juvenile onset diabetes. A large part of our folk born after the advent of say DPT would have died from the childhood diseases.
A lot of the health problems you are seeing is due to XENOBIOTICS- mainly the food dyes and preservatives in food and drinks… the malates and succinates and glutamates, MSG etc
I remember as a 14 year old in 1966, working a cash register at a supermarket in Roebuck Street when Tang and Cool Aid and chicken backs with the chemicals in it begun to be imported. Before we used lemonade, mauby etc, we ate local pig, and literal yard fowls that we raised in the yard. We started going down hill since then.
In the 80’s I had 20 year olds with joint pains who had Xray changes in thier bones. At the same time my old graanies with arthritis so called had no Xray changes in thier bones. Maybe these old folk were raised on nuff cow’s milk!
Asthma was rare because all children played in the yard and caught worms. This is thought by some researchers to be a good thing as it gave some immunity. Today, children largely play inside within a sterile environment that is constantly wiped down with Lysol and Pine Sol and etc etc
I don’t think that I said that our mortality rate has gone up over the last 40 years, because it has gone down.
Midwives are actually well qualified in the branch of medicine called obstetrics. Who you think teach me to deliver babies man? One of my favorites died this year. I well remember her cussing me out as a student and a doctor and telling me dat I was too slow fuh she.Oh!
You seem to have something against modern prescribed medicine. It has its place when used properly….. and so do some herbs. I would recommend you use nuff tomatoes and take saw palmetto berry to reduce your chances of prostate disease, and get some Co enzyme Q from the health shop to boost the end stage of your respiratory function. 3 gms tumeric for pain- but it don’t taste good. Nuff yams (cant remember the good stuff in it now). Don’t forget to give the children the cod liver oil capsules.
Tell me Why wrote “I am a bit scared communicating with The Devil, but being a brave star I must make my deliberations.”
Well fear not, your soul is not required at this time (giggle). I have not been able to get actual mortality rates for Barbados so I am using infant mortality rates as a substitute. To be honest, mortality rates are probably more in response to public health initiatives i.e. garbage disposal, vaccinations, clean drinking water, better nutrition, mosquito control, etc. This is not to discount advances in medicine including pharmacology which address treatment and management of diseases. They are old Barbadians who can remember cholera epidemics in Barbados (1920’s). Such things are unheard of today, thank goodness.
The Devil
You have raised a very good point there.
Mortality rates are indeed a response to public health initiatives i.e. garbage disposal, vaccinations, clean drinking water, better nutrition, mosquito control, etc.
The factors you point out also have accounted for the longevity of our people.
Our Public Health Services and our great indices owe much to pioneers like the late Sir Maurice Byer Professor Sir Kenneth Standard , and Dr Vaughan Wells starting around the early fifties. Don’t forget the work of the Dr who founded the Child Nutrition Center (cant remember his name now) and a host of public health inspectors and public health nurses.
BU – You should by now that pharmaceuticals companies every now and then performs these studies to discredit the supplements industry. I’ve taken have ginko and notice the difference in substained memory.
2/The same pharmaceuticals indusrty also sell supplements under a front name to compete with the same herbal industry.
3/ If you don’t know the recommended amount to take, the product just would not work for you – non medical or medical
4/ Many of these supplements manufacture by Big Pharma have many toxins in them again to discredit the other side whilst reaping profits at the same time. The goal is to get people hooked on Big Phama drugs for continuous profits hence targeting the children’s market.
5/ Big Pharma have fail us time and time again. One cannot make money off of healthly people. Breakthroughts and new improved drugs are keys words to keep our eyes in their direction.
6/ Drugs and surgery do not cure. They only help. A man can take all the drugs in the world but if he still living bad the drugs still ain’t no help to him.
7/ People live longer by eating wholesome food and by keeping your body in an alkaline state. An acidic body causes problems. And yes as the old folks say faith in God.
Finally I do not take prescription drugs unless necessary. As I said before they help as their main purpose is to treat the symptoms and not the cause. While good in the short term it is not necessary good in the long run.
Thanks for your comment cherry2enpowered but after listening to the chemist (GP) and others on this blog, and now you we have become very confused.
How should the general public do drug selection ?
For me p/drugs have their part to play I just do not depend on them. I believe supplements have their role to play also. I also believe one should take a more active role in taking charge of one’s health instead of waiting on the doc for a, b and c. I’m sure many a doc would welcome this.
As you well know there have been many a story both i/tional and local on persons researching their illness and doing all it takes to get back on their feet again.
To ” preach” that to rely solely on drugs and surgery to cure is a fallacy in my book.
Don’t be confused David.
I am a chemist, a doctor and now a teacher of Pharmacology- my favorite subject in medical school.
The general public should take the drugs prescribed by their doctors faithfully, and report and discuss any side effects with him. Some patients might even seek a second opinion.
It is the untrained know it alls who might be confusing you David.
I have been very balanced in this discussion, and I have pointed out clearly and carefully the merits and demerits of our traditions and medical folklore. I have pointed out that much is known about some of the most commonly used alternative medicines, and have pointed out some that I have myself used. I have pointed out that I took the trouble to learn about alternative agents because of my interest in xenobiotics (any chemicals
taken into the body.
Only an absolute twit would say that drugs and surgery do not cure. If you have gall stones or appendicitis, SURGERY CURES. Even the children’s cancer WILMS TUMOR OF THE KIDNEY IS CURED BY SURGERY. If you have an abscess or a Bartholins cyst or a hernia SURGERY CURES
If you have defective Anatomical structures either because you were born with them or you acquired them after birth SURGERY OFFERS A CURE. Thats why there have been surgeons all over the world before this idiot who needs a brain transplant was born!
Whereas prescription drugs should not be taken unnecessary, if this idiot has closed angle or other glaucoma and don’t take their medication they will go blind! Antibiotics eradicate infections. Many modern drugs actually treat the symptoms by acting at the root of the cause. They act at known receptor sites. If you lack dopamine in Parkinsons you get L- dopa or a drug that acts at dopamine receptors. Most modern drugs have been designed to act very specifically. This does not mean they are perfect.
When I started to practice we used guanethidine and aldomet to treat hypertension. We no longer use guanethidine because it was not specific in its action. We are free to use aldomet in women, but men fail to get erections because aldomet will dilate all blood vessels and we don’t want venodilation at erection; we want venoconstriction. So we have other alternatives for treating men with hypertension.
When I started to practice we used any alpha antagonists for benign prostatic hypertrophy. Today we still do but we now have and prefer to use tamulosin (flomax) because we know it acts at alpha 1 receptors preferentially- the nerve fibres we want to attack in this condition.
But we would use phenoxybenzamine during operations to treat phaeochromocytoma still because it has a long duration of action.
I wonder how medical illiterates can pontificate and spew out so much bovine excrement with out thinking! Why don’t the untrained seek to listen and learn, or ask instead of shooting of their unenlightened opinions!
David if you listen to those who are trained in their special area, and continue to learn in that area you will be less confused. If you listen to medical and pharmacological illiterates you will tend in that direction.
For instance what does this nonsense mean ? >>>>> “ Breakthroughs and new improved drugs are keys words to keep our eyes in their direction.”
The untrained one wrote “If you don’t know the recommended amount to take, the product just would not work for you – non medical or medical.” So how do you know what is right? You go by faith and take the manufacturers suggestion. or ……
another way is to empiracally titrate or increase the dose. Is that always safe? NO. YOU DO NOT KNOW THE SUBSTANCES THERAPEUTIC INDEX if you are a layman .
If you take more digoxin than prescribed YOU WILL BE PLANTED! If you use St Johns wort willy nilly YOU WILL BE PLANTED! If you abuse panadol or Epsom salts YOU WILL BE PLANTED! Simple.
Tell me Why, the Devil and others have made a good contribution. I might not have convinced them of the truth, but the last poster is well described by Paul in Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. The post is pure rubbish!
Everyone knows that most doctoring ought not to rely on drugs and surgery but on TEACHING.
A good doctor is a good TEACHER . The word doctor comes from the Latin docere to teach.
I welcome teachable intelligent patients who are willing to learn, and have an open mind. Not one that is filled with fluff. A little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing David.
How does one know when to use supplements and or prescribed drugs? What are the differences between the two? They ARE BOTH XENOBIOTICS! THEY ARE BOTH POTENTIAL POISONS. BECAUSE A SUBSTANCE IS “NATURAL” DOES NOT MAKE IT SAFE!
Saw palmetto berry (a supplement) is as efficacious as Proscar (finesteride) because they have the SAME MECHANISM OF ACTION. This is information that has been worked out by scientists.
Some folk get prostate problems others dont— regardless to how good you live!
If you take the unopened Jamaican ackee you will be poisoned by the natural substance within which is a hypoglycin, that will lower your blood sugar until you are comotosed
But GP it is not clear to me why you are so upset with cherry2enpowered.
I understand exactly what the poster is saying…. I also think that I understand why you disagree – but not why you seem upset.
In the final analysis most doctors only make a living off people who are sick. Contrary to popular belief, for the most part people need not become sick…. Indeed, with good sanitation and hygienic practices, sensible diet and extensive exercise, most doctors would be reduced to begging for a living (or the practice of medicine would change radically).
While you are clearly not guilty of this, many doctors demonstrate a definite focus on a patient’s potential as an ongoing customer more so than on seeking to rid themselves by healing the patient – who then no longer becomes a paying customer).
This, Hippocratic oath or not, tends to lead to a preference for short term action like masking symptoms, dealing with pain etc. How many doctors seriously focus on LIFESTYLE changes and root cause problem solving?
…So cherry2 is saying that our best bet is to eat properly, stay alkaline, exercise wisely and use medicine ONLY when unavoidable, ONLY to help with dealing with symptoms, and meanwhile, to focus on dealing with the ROOT CAUSES of sickness (which almost always comes down to lifestyle choices).
You (like the excellent debater that you are) have rebutted by introducing some of the rare instances where medical intervention is indeed beneficial. …. but if we all stopped smoking, eating processed foods, drinking aspartame and sitting around… what would you do for a living?
…..GP, nothing beats a little bush tea… 😉
The above posts carries a general theme in them. P/drugs and supplements both play their roles in a patient’s health.
On the other hand for Big Pharma to keep brainwashing the public into accepting that drugs and surgery are the only answers to one’s health is again I will repeat a fallacy in my book.
GP. I hate medicine as a profession due to my weakness in seeing blood. The only Biology or Science I dealt with was when I was in third form at Parkinson. So all my knowledge was gathered after having three children some 27 years ago. I love talking to seniors whose real life scenarios enlightened my empty brain.
Whilst at it, have you ever come across Polymalgia Rheumatica? It is said to be a disorder of the muscles and joints characterized by pain and stiffness, affecting both sides of the body, and involving the shoulders, arms, neck, and buttock areas.
The reason I am checking is a friend of mine who was being label of having this illness and after many blood tests was given steroids to counteract the problem only to find out all the tests came back negative. Unfortunately, the person had already consume many steroid tablets which gave her severe reactions and had to discontinue taking them immediately. Now the withdrawal from the tablets have her body numb and tingling. After checking the tablets, I realised that the symtoms of the numbness plus the side effects of liver, heart problems, kidney and severe headaches are the norm for these tablets.
So you see, it is not my dislike of prescription drugs, but the many side effects that are not mentioned by the medical personnel. But again, professionals only deal with what you tell them.
Bush tea
I do not understand what the poster is saying at all.
I do understand that she has confused David.
If we all stopped smoking, eating processed foods, drinking aspartame and sitting around… people would still become ill, because of the little matter of apoptosis. Google it. It is a long story. It’s the same picture as why leaves die and fall of trees.
Now I understand why that 80 year old man whose post mortem I witnessed at QEH in 1975 died. The Pathologist cut every structure and could find nothing wrong at all from his experience. We grow old and die, even if we are well. I concluded then that you don’t die because you are sick, you die as the Bible says in Ezekiel 18 because YOU SIN! Apoptosis is the methodology.
So Bush tea your problem might not because of your hypertensive medication, you might be apoptosing! That may be why you cant go out and in as before! LOl. Thats the googly Bush tea. I hope you read it!
By the way aspartame has been implicated in the causation of a lot of unexplained illnesses, I am told by the Naturopaths. It might be messing up the same obese folk who use it as a sugar substitute. I have discontinued its routine use
Because of apoptosis genes people will get sick and some more complicated genes that have been identified in certain illnesses. I agree with you that with good sanitation and hygienic practices, sensible diet and extensive exercise, most disease will be reduced.
I don’t know what other doctors would do for a living; but from very early medicine was my hobby; I made money with real estate investing. Medicine is something I did because I love interacting with people.
Again you are correct that many doctors demonstrate a definite focus on a patient’s potential as an ongoing customer more so than on seeking to rid themselves by healing the patient – who then no longer becomes a paying customer. When a doctor first implied such to me, I was shocked at the very idea since it took away the very purpose and joy of being a doctor; illucidating the diagnosis and applying the known cure.
Bush tea many doctors don’t focus on LIFESTYLE changes and root cause problem solving because that is not what the patients want. Patients dont want to listen and learn and discus. I found that they want you to listen with your “trumpet” and sound them over and examine them from head to toe, as though you can touch someone and make them whole like Jesus Most patients expect you to give them medicine, and they often want to tell you what to give them too! They dont want no lotta talk . That’s why I quit!
Whereas I believe medicine should only be used ONLY when unavoidable, I don’t think that medicine should be used ONLY to help with dealing with symptoms. Its not the same.
Again we disagree with the aetiology or causation of illness. It is not only or always due to lifestyle choices. That’s an introduction to Pathology lesson- the ROOT CAUSES of sickness.
How do you stay alkaline? Have you heard about homeostasis? Why do you think it is so hard to lose weight?
Again I have not in my discussion noted THE rare instances where medical intervention is indeed beneficial; I only mentioned a few! LOL.
.
I have to agree though that nothing beats a little bush tea, because though I have disagreed with you on some points, your tone and tenor has been more acceptable. People like you are the model patient.
There is too much distrust around for me…. Even among students. They are not as appreciative as we were at school. I put my heart and soul into all that I do. I really try to be as honest as I can and give my best. I don’t lie in this or other forum to make a point.
I have researched both sides of the coin and I gave a balanced rather than a biased viewon the subject of xenobiotics.
“How should the general public do drug selection ?”
By listening to an accredited medical practitioner and reporting all responses to recommended therapy. By accredited, I mean someone who has attended and passed all examinations of a state recognised school of medicine leading to the award of a Bachelor of Medicine or its equivalent (MBBS, MBChirB, MD, etc).
In my very personal opinion, I stay very far away from any of the following;
osteopaths, naturopaths, acupuncturists, ayurvedic medics, chiropractics, homeopaths, traditional chinese medics, reiki practitioners, psychics, reflexologists, iridologists, aromatherapists, feng shui practitioners, herbalists and faith healers. This list is not exhaustive as there are quacks I have not yet heard of but they are out there.
I am told that Liz Thompson when she was Minister of Health, changed the medical registration act to accomodate some of these quacks as recognised medical professionals. This alone condemns her to eternity in my dark world. I expect much disagreement but I will live with it.
By the way, Bush Tea needs to change the doctors he is seeing . I am now at the age that my sins have caught up with me (and as The Devil these are a lot!). Every doctor I have visited over the last 4 years has implored me to lose weight, drink less alchohol, exercise more, eat less red meat and more vegetables and fruits, refused to prescribe weight loss medicine (e.g. xenical), encouraged me to spend quality time with family, increase my spiritual activity (e.g prayer, meditation), take up more relaxing hobbies, refused to prescribe medicine to lower mild high blood sugar instead insisting on lifestyle change (which did the trick). All of them (five in number) are young (under 50), West Indian and UWI trained.
Also we must not forget the tireless efforts of Dr Tony Gale to reduce the levels of smoking in Barbados.
Sorry Bush Tea, this time you got about as much useful ingredients as a homeopathic concoction.
Tell me Why
I also love talking to seniors whose real life scenarios enlightened my empty brain also, and have oft encouraged me. So I agree with you.
I believe that doctors must LISTEN to their patients. Hi you just came through the door. I don’t know you from Adam. How can I make an accurate diagnosis unless I listen to you tell me the diagnosis (though not by its name). I have to extract it out of you.
Ok Polymalgia Rheumatica is one of those illnesses that is hard to diagnose because there are many things that might mimic it. Not everything is easy to diagnose.
Auto immune disease often respond to steroids; there is not much else that is useful that we know thus far. The steroids are used with the hope of reducing the inflammatory response caused by the immunogens. Unfortunately, steroids are particularly notorious for their awful side effects. Some of the other immunosupressants are just as bad. If you check texts of Pharmacology the cupboard is fairly bare for immunosuppressants.
Medical personnel ought to warn patients of the side effects of their medication, and to look out for them.
Whereas I understand your dislike of prescription drugs; which should not be used willy nilly, the point I was making is that natural substances also have side effects because LIKE PRESCRIPTION DRUGS THEY ARE ALSO UNNATURAL SUBSTANCES FOR THE BODY!
So I tend to throw all bush tea in the careenage… 😉 especially bush tea with the cawmere brand name Murder! LOL
What can I say to cherry2enpowered.? Medicine is divided generally into SURGERY (which involves cutting out or refashioning) & MEDICINE ( which involves the use of drugs or and supplements.)
In addition there is in both teaching, whether it is about lifestyle changes or preventative medicine or what ever. That is the general simple theme of medicine.
There is also MASTERLY INACTIVITY. That is you do nothing you watch and wait! Many doctors will give a placebo as most patients will go elsewhere if you don’t jump in where angels fear to thread!
Example Young girl with lumpy breasts. Re- examine in two weeks lumpyness often disappears. So you know it is related to the menstrual cycle and to normal growth at that period of life.
Who is Big Pharma & how can we reinvent the wheel to accommodate cherry2enpowered.? Except with other naturopathic modalities, the Anatomical and Physiological or Biochemical Basis- no one really understands
GP,
…the problem that Cherry2 will have in debating you is that you are obviously actually a good doctor, and a good person.
How does one argue about the scourge of gang culture with a ‘goody two shoe’ who never misses Sunday school, and who willingly does errands for senior neighbors?
….I admit that you are a real smart debater too…
What 80 year old sick man what?!?
GP, after age 70 there is no such thing as sick. what sick what? the bible says that we have three score and ten… anything after that is gravy… 😉
You well know that, should we sort out out lifestyles, especially in light of the abundant knowledge that we now have from research, that chronic illness among persons who SHOULD be healthy would be reduced to accidents, conflict and the relative few who are unlucky enough to be born with genetic inclinations to certain conditions…. (I would estimate an 80% reduction in sickness)
It is well known that most cancers require an acid environment in which to thrive, a slightly alkaline pH is therefore an excellent defense.
Aspartame is probably the most widely used poison in use. A study of its history is most intriguing… with manipulation of the FDA, bribery, and falsification of science resulting in practically every one of us being compromised with such everyday items as soft drinks, chewing gum etc…. It is nowhere as bad as nicotine, but even more blatant.
If we had more doctors like you there would be a hell of an outcry, but as I said, the situation has been a wind fall for most GPs, with daily crowded offices, a bristling sale of tests and drugs and money to spare after the mercedes payments.
…I understand Cherry2 because Bush tea has been a model of health awareness for decades now. I visit my GP EVERY year- in perfect health, just to have a check-up and old talk about any issues that elude me…. (and to shock my GP with the results of being vegi, no sugar, no flour etc – a permanent teenager)
Bush tea’s ‘real age’ is REALLY 12 years BELOW my chronological age… (you can check yours too – google- ‘realage’ )
…Except for the real long name, I understand Cherry2enpowered, -total focus on lifestyle and mind set….
watch it GP, that means that Bush tea has up to 82 to go (3 score + 10 +12).. so that is nuff nuff blogging to go… 😉
The Devil
I didn’t want to come out and say it as plain as you have done in your first three paragraphs in your last post. You have answered Davids question most effectively
I also agree with your endorsement of the contribution of Dr Tony Gale to reduce the levels of smoking in Barbados and your pride in your five young UWI trained doctors.
Don’t hit Bush Tea again yet man. I hurt he already and got he dizzy wid that googly I hit he wid in my recent post. He retired hurt but really he frighten to face the public after I expose he. So let he drink he bush tea in peace. But Mr Devil did you spot the ball though?
I agree wid your doctors for refusing to prescribe weight loss medicine and to lower mild high blood sugar. Man you in good firm hands they sir. I like it
Devil,
The only person that I am more wary of taking advice from that a GP is the Devil. …at least with the GP you only halfway there, but when you start listening to the Devil you know that you fully home…
…anyway, how you mean that
———————
“By listening to an accredited medical practitioner and reporting all responses to recommended therapy…”
———————
..you could be serious? It is people like you that make me sorry that I did not study medicine.
Devil, trusting your health to a person who depends on you being sick to pay for his benz is like us bloggers taking advice from the devil (the real one) about salvation.
… (he has too much to gain by giving wrong advice).
Of course there ARE some special exceptions like GP (and my own GP I must say), but the ONLY one that I trust with my health is Bush tea (the Cawmere brand)…
..and Devil, when I visit my GP, HE ask me for advice on my lifestyle…but I cant get him to change, poor youngster….
…and GP,
check my response to the Devil, that is really your ‘googly’ sailing over the pavilion…. you will need more that the devil self on your attack if that is the kind of bowling you bringing to this wicket…
BUsh tea
Before I respond to your last post are you apoptosing or not? Did you read the googly? LOL
Re What 80 year old sick man what?
I didn’t say that he was sick- only that he died and we could find no obvious pathology to indicate why. It really amazed me as a young student.
Re
after age 70 there is no such thing as sick. what sick what? the bible says that we have three score and ten… anything after that is gravy
Man know they got some fit people over 70 batting like they just come in, and they like they seeing the ball like a bread fruit.
I agree with all you have said on aspartame, lifestyles, health awareness alkaline pH, the FDA, bribery, and falsification of science resulting in practically every one of us being compromised with such everyday items as soft drinks, chewing gum etc (I call all of that teaching.
Doctors supposed to do all that whether they do surgery or write prescriptions for drugs.)
You talk about “a bristling sale of tests and drugs” but you forgot the referral to other members in the various cleaks. Once I saw a patient in a certain circumstance at their home.
When I asked for their medication the lady had been seen by the haematologist last but had a gastroenterology problem for which she had medicine. On further enquiry, she had seen ALL of the other specialists who were members of the first doctors graduation class.
I glad that you understand Cherry2 but she didn’t explain herself well and seemed to have David confused.
Total focus on lifestyle and mind set….is of course correct but so very difficult Bush tea. I respect your discipline and dedication.
Cherry2 please accept my humble apology.
Bush Tea
Man you cant get such an answer like that except from another Bajan.
Bush Tea,
you are swiping like the guys on ads for cricket
“… (he has too much to gain by giving wrong advice).”
well they have given the same ‘wrong’ advice as you have. Listening does not mean abrogation of my capacity to think for myself.
And on salvation, many (all?) of my best salesmen wear cassocks or clerical collars!
I still think that tonight you are like cold drawn tea (as Dipper Barrow once said) LOL.
Devil,
…so let me get this right….
1) five (5) doctors ‘tek’ you… (you pay each one i assume..)
2) You got the same advice from each one…. (i heard about second opinions but FIVE?….)
3) You still got the same ‘problem’ all like now
so….
4) plus you fat and got a big belly…..LOL
……and you calling Bush tea (Son of BBE) cold drawn tea???
Devil, either you are a brave man or you is the real thing….and I know all about your salesmen – but you don’t want to start Bush tea on that subject…..
…. Man if you is GP’s top pace bowler he could as well default the game….. (playing he bringing a pace bowler from hell…..)
What pace what?!?
….that was a long hop Devil…. even sweeter than the attempted googly…
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