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The discussion coming out of our article on HIV/AIDS last Wednesday has yet again caused us to place the Church under the microscope, and to question the fading role which it is playing in our society. There was a time when the majority of young people could be found at Sunday school involved in one or several activities within the church; youth groups, singing in the choir, Church Lads Brigade, etc. We feel that we can say that the Church was an extension of the family and it was not uncommon for the parish priest or pastor to be intimately involved in the decision making of many households within the parish.

gays.jpg

It is not our intention to use the argument that one has to be religious to have wholesome values. However, we all accepted that by attending Church there was a discipline acquired which was an inevitable influence on our young, impressionable minds and bodies back then. We anticipate the arguments which will come back to us and we agree that moralizing will not stave-off the morass which the HIV/AIDS problem has deposited our society. The problem is complex and must be attacked on many fronts. We know that factors such as parental delinquency, vacillating policymakers, schools which teach children how to pass examinations and not how to be rounded citizens, and many others factors all combine create some of the societal ills which we are currently battling. In the BU household we subscribe to the view that our political directorate and the church are failing modern societies.

To support our point we invite you to read the following blog which highlights the deceit and hypocrisy which is prevalent in the Catholic church. This denomination has a significant congregation in Barbados.

Vatican bars prelate in gay row, BBC News

The Vatican rarely comments on sexual scandals involving priests. The Vatican has confirmed local newspaper reports that a high-ranking Catholic priest has been suspended. The man, who works in the department in charge of clergy around the world, appeared on Italian TV earlier this month admitting that he was gay. The prelate had been suspended pending further investigation, said Vatican spokesman Father Frederico Lombari. He says he was interviewed “fraudulently” with a hidden camera and now denies his earlier statement. In a letter published in an Italian online newspaper, Petrus, he writes: “I said I was homosexual in order to unmask those who really are.”He has been publicly named as Tommaso Stenico, and has confirmed that he gave the interview. Father Lombardi said that he had clearly acted in a way that was incompatible with his status inside the world headquarters of the Roman Catholic Church. Monsignor Stenico appeared on an investigative programme about gay priests on an Italian commercial TV channel, La7.

He was filmed inside his private office in the Vatican. Although his voice was disguised, colleagues and friends easily identified him as a monsignor who frequently used to appear as anchorman and even celebrate Mass on a well known local Catholic TV channel. Monsignor Stenico told his interviewer that he did not regard himself as being in a state of sin because of his homosexual activities but was forced to keep them secret because of the church’s teaching on the subject. The BBC’s David Willey in Rome says the Vatican rarely comments on sexual scandal involving priests and the prompt admission of this priest’s suspension is unusual.

What we find repulsive and hypocritical is not the fact that homosexuality is rampant in the modern Church, but there is all the illegal and immoral behaviour which comes with it. Many of the homosexual elders in the Church inflict their ‘filthy stinking’ lifestyles on innocent members of their congregations. If a priest/pastor is gay, he or she should come-out so that the public knows his or her position, and they can make informed decisions whether they want to be led by that individual or not.

We anticipate that Bush Tea and others will have much to say but call the BU household eternal optimist; we are not homophobic!

 

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The Church Continues To Perpetrate Crimes Against The Flock~Now The Turn Of The Jehovah’s Witnesses
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104 responses to “The Church's Big Secret”

  1. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    “we are not homophobic”

    Crap!


  2. It’s clear from this, and previous, submissions that you feel that homosexuality is morally wrong. You’re entitled to your opinions but you do have to recognise that this sort of stance makes you homophobic by most measures.


  3. David,
    When we get to the point where we come to understand the REAL point of this existence that we call ‘life’, we will understand that the ‘church’ should be the center of our education, our dreams and our very being.
    Unfortunately, the exact opposite is now true. But this is so because the so-called ‘church’ is nothing more than a loose pack of jokers who could not find better employment.

    In the absence of an understanding of life’s ultimate objective, why do you do the things that you do? What is success? Where does this business of ‘happiness’ fit in? Is Sir COW an example of success? How about the poor old woman in Bathsheba who never worked a day in her life?
    Unless we know What the OVERALL goal is how can we answer these questions?

    The problem with the ‘church’ is that they have failed to interpret the revolutionary message that Jesus brought- in terms that make sense in this modern world. The emotional ‘wishy-washy’ nonsense that was effective in the middle ages when education was nil, obviously will only turn off the young people of today. Why do you think that the church is 90% women and is so much associated with homosexuality and sexual predators? – Because it is all about emotionalism.

    This is not surprising, since even in his time, Jesus refused to answer specific questions about the overall purpose of life, and instead, used parables to confuse and mislead the general public at the time.

    I am saying that without the guidance that should come from the ‘church’, we are just aimlessly expending energy without any coherent life-goal and that this has implications for every other aspect of our existence. Some of us feel that making as much money as possible and buying as much property as they can constitutes ‘success’. Others dream of travelling the world, some just lime on Browns beach and some live to collect ‘bling’.

    Unfortunately, many of our intelligent and educated young people can see through the folly of these ‘life-goals’ and they give up in despair – resorting in frustration, to short-term thrills like sex, drugs, violence and hopelessness.

    I am saying that fundamental to the CHAOS we face in this modern world, is a lack of leadership in matters concerning the MEANING and PURPOSE of life.

    …If that is the church’s role, then they have failed us all miserably.


  4. James and YUM if that is a label we have to carry so be it. The problem we have found with modern societies, it seems that the liberals are the ones who are prepared to represent their views with passion, some of us who ascribe to conservative/mainstream positions have been cowered into wanting to remain silence.


  5. YUM YUM I like it! // Oct 22nd 2007 at 7:51 am

    “we are not homophobic”

    Crap
    ——————————————————

    But what does one understand this word to mean? Certainly the word roots it’s two parts should lend some insight. 😀


  6. All of you people need to read the Bible.


  7. I have read the Bible. From cover to cover. And I’ll say this: it’s more than easy to use it to justify any sort of view that you like. You just have to be selective. The bible states that homosexuality is wrong. Certainly. But how many times have you executed adulterers (there’d be plenty dead people here abouts) or stoned your neighbour to death when you’ve caught him working on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:36) or even worn wool and linen at the same time (Deuteronomy 22:11). Shame on you. Me ? I prefer to focus on the “love thy neighbour” stuff (Leviticus 19:18) whether my neighbour is straight, gay or even wearing wool and linen together.

  8. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    sweetpea // Oct 22nd 2007 at 12:25 pm

    “All of you people need to read the Bible.”

    Why?

    There is plenty out there to read. Why would I choose to read that particular book!

    I’ve read the Bible. For the most part it is boring.


  9. james, are you not protesting a bit too much?
    after all there is a difference between doing something that is normal but is wrong ( gluttony, exceeding speed limits, etc) and doing something that is ABNORMAL.. which is wrong (like bullying, driving the wrong way down one-way streets etc)

    Does the bible say that homosexuality is ‘wrong’? or does it say it is an abomination?

  10. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    Bush tea

    I fail to see your argument in the last post.

    You try to make the distinction between action which are ‘wrong but abnormal’ and those which are ‘wrong but normal’. This is a dangerous precedent to set. Lets take the two traffic offences you mention. Who exactly is saying that speeding is normal and going the wrong way down a one way street is abnormal. If we start to partially condone an activity which is against the law by calling it normal (“because everyone speeds at some point, don’t they”), where do we stop!

    What we have here in Barbados is a society which is hypocritical when it comes to issues of tolerance!

    Whilst it is unthinkable to openly display racist viewpoints (unless the Guyanese are the topic of discussion!), it is perfectly acceptable to hate the homos!

    This article is misguided and only acts to deepen this societal bigotry (homophobia) and to reinforce innaccurate stereotypes about homosexuality and the spread of HIV.

    David, why do you use the homoerotic picture, if not for inflammatory purposes? Actually would have been interesting if you had used an image with black men, as it seems that black men have the biggest problem with gay issues!

    Homophobia is deplorable. It marginalises gay people such that they are forced to live their lives as a lie. Homophobia increases gay promiscuity because it stops gay people from forming loving monogamous relationships. Homophobia forces a lot of gay people into bisexuality.

    It is time that people realised that homosexuality is not a disease, it is normal, it is common (around 20%).

    DEAL WITH IT!

    The gays are not gonna disappear just cos you hate them! You can’t convert a gay to heterosexuality, so about time you start accepting it!


  11. David, why do you use the homoerotic picture, if not for inflammatory purposes? Actually would have been interesting if you had used an image with black men, as it seems that black men have the biggest problem with gay issues!

    YUM for the record the picture which we have inserted in this article is an illustration of an oil painting by the world renown artist Jack D. Cowan, here is his website. He is an artist who is known for focusing on the beauty of the female and male bodies.


  12. I really do not wantor intend to get into this discussion because the last time I did I was branded a sex nut by BFP.

    But let me throw this out for thought and reflection and you won’t hear again from me about this subject. Because subjects like these are like religion and politics——- no one wins. But here is my view and I am leaving God and church out of the equation.

    We found ourselves on earth and it is not important on how we got here or who was responsible for it. And we discovered that MAN and WOMAN was the only way we could propagate. Because it was obvious and the only way forward would be sex between man an woman if we wanted the world population to grow. Therefore heterosexual relationships was for again obvious reasons considered normal . Based on logic!

    As the world evolved homosexuality and Lesbian relationships entered the picture and these forms of sex and relationships cannot produce children in the same traditional ways as a heterosexual relationship. Same sex marriages or relationships can adopt children or have inferto fertilization I believe it is called done. Some claim this is a normal relationship or as normal as a heterosexual relationship and we should be ashamed to criticize these people. What I want to know is where does normal and abnormal begin and stop besides hetrosexual relationships which seems to give some logic to normal—–Having children, marriage for that and the other obvious purposes like love, commitment etc. I know, I know love commitment can be had in lesbian and Homo relations but we are looking or talking about the BIG picture and the whole package.

    Are we going to make a case that having sex with animals as some do and sex with innocent little children some as young as 3 years old that do not even know what is being done to them by these pedophiles “NORMAL”? Where is the logic to justify it?

    We have logic and purpose for heterosexual relationships. I see none for the rest!

  13. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    Well, No Name

    Thank goodness that is your last word on the subject, as I could not face reading any more of that senselessness.

    Your contention is that homosexual relationships have no validity because they have neither purpose nor logic.

    Mmmmmm! How about hetero couples who are infertile? Maybe childless couple should live separately once the man has had a vasectomy?! Increasing numbers of fertile hetero couples are actually CHOOSING not to have children. Are these people allowed to stay together (under your logical law)?

    Relationships, sexuality, romantic attraction are NOT logical issues.

    1500 species of animals display homosexual activity – where is the logic in that Mr No Name?
    And how could that have been part of God’s big divine design?

    Yes, hetero couples make babies. Cool, but that does not mean that all homos should lead lonely purposeless lives without the right to close companionship.

    Gay people have the same desire for settled loving relationships as do he-she couples. The PURPOSE of a couple of any sexuality is to form a stable bond which enhances both partner’s lives (and any kids of course) and allows them to grow together towards a better future. After all, married men live, on average 10 years longer than unmarried men (a statistic that I SOMETIMES find difficult to comprehend – when my wife p***es me off something terrible)

    I just wish people would start looking beyond the genitals and start thinking of the humans. For many happiness comes in couples.

    Are we to deny this 20% of our people the happiness and fulfilment they deserve?

  14. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    Also No Name

    You say that you don’t wish to discuss religion, politics OR sexuality issues.

    What exactly do you feel good discussing?

    Knitting patterns?


  15. Cut the BS Yum just answer the question. What is normal and what isn’t?

    You talk like a homosexual and I have no trouble with that but answer the question I pose for the rest of us. What is normal and what is not. Based on logic! (1) a heterosexual family (2) same sex family (3) People who prefer animals and (3) those who like getting it on with kidddies. Tell the people! What is normal and abnormal!

  16. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    No Name

    Welcome back! I thought those first words were supposed to be your last.

    “You talk like a homosexual”

    Exactly how does a homosexual talk? A camp squeaky voice? Should I be mincing across the floor in efeminate clothing and foppish face make-up? (Homophobes do love their gay stereotypes – keeps the hate nice and easy doesn’t it!)

    Does it not occur to you that a straight man could speak SENSE on issues of sexuality and tolerance?

    As to your little (narrow-minded) question:

    1) “A heterosexual family”#1 – where the dad is actually gay, but because he comes from a highly religious family (in a generally homophobic society) he has had to play along with a ‘mock’ marraige whilst engaging in secret liasons. Wife is depressed. Kids grow up within the turmoil – ABNORMAL

    “A heterosexual family #2
    A true heterosexual couple forced together by accidental teenage pregnancy. He is abusive and violent and she is an alcoholic. Kids get taken into care by social services – ABNORMAL

    2) “Same sex family” – two mature lesbian doctors (who have been together for 12 years and have gone through a civil union, and own a house together) have one child through artificial insemination – a decision they took together after counselling and much deliberation – MORE NORMAL
    3) Irrelevant
    4)Irrelevant (and I suppose you also think all gays are predatory kiddy fiddlers)

    You see, it all depends on the PEOPLE and how much love they have to give!

    Normal or abnormal – we don’t all have the luxury of this choice!

    After all what is normal?

    Open your heart No Name, let the gays in!


  17. People cry down gays and then engage in heterosexual anal sex?

    Dont fool wanna self, wanna ain gay, wanna downright HAPPY.


  18. touchy- touchy Yum and james. I personally really do not care one way or another about homosexuality. If you folks need to declare some special interest so be it.

    It does seem somewhat strange that there is a need to ‘flaunt’ it.

    I am sorry if i chose a weak example to explain ‘Abomination’ but I know you got the point i was trying to make.

    can we get back to David’s substantive issue about the role of the church (the big picture)

    …and let’s hope that ‘no name’ is honest and will keep his word to buzz off.

    You are obviously an intelligent person YUM, do you think that life is just an ‘accident’? or that there is a ‘God’ – meaning some higher intelligence out there?

    If the latter, what do you think is the role of the church?


  19. james

    it is clear you read the Bible, but what is also clear is that you do not understand what you have read.
    Let me explain, the Bible is divided into two parts the old testament and the new. The old testament is for our learning and understanding, it is of things past. In other word God ruled strictly by law, so if you cursed God you died immediately, if you were a homosexual you died immediately, if you were a adulterer you died and so on this was the rule of law.
    In the new testament Jesus Christ died on the cross to change all of that, so we are no longer ruled by the law, we are ruled by love, so now we curse God and live, we fornicate and commit adultery and live, we indulge in homosexual behavior and live and so on, because of the LOVE and GRACE of God, but here is the catch James, While we are alive we have the opportunity to make our life right in the sight of God the things God mentioned in the old testament that he hates still remains the difference is he now gives us a chance while we are alive to repent from them and to change our ways. However if when we die and we were still involved in such practices and never repented and accepted Jesus Christ , then the Bible promises eternal hell for us. So we can condemn the Church, the pastors or christians all we want but the truth is we are all responsible for our own action whether we want to accept it or not and the reality is we will have to answer to God for every deed.

  20. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    OMG

    It is strange that a lot of people have a problem with homos just because they find anal sex disgusting.

    Personally I find the thought of my mum and dad having sex quite repulsive, but I don’t hate THEM!

    Who cares what consenting adults do in their bedrooms!

    You will notice that there is NOWHERE near the level of revulsion against lesbian sex, as most men (nad many women) find it quite titillating.

    Ironically, I saw a survey of google searches and way up there on heterosexual-porn-searches were ‘lesbian sex’ and ‘anal sex’!!! It seems that there is a smattering of hypocrisy around.

    Bush Tea

    Thank you for the compliment.

    I DO have a particular special interest in these issues simply because I abhor homophobia. I resent the injustice of it and the ignorance which it espouses!

    I am not gay (which is not really relevant anyway) but I have come across some very sad stories involving repressed sexuality. My cousin ( a very talented and dynamic individual) only managed to come out of the closet at the age of 35(He had to move to Australia to do so!) by which time he had been an heavy smoker,alcoholic and drug addict. His heart and liver were so destroyed by the stress of his ‘life as a lie’ that he died by the age of 37!! He drowned after having a heart attack. He had finally found a partner to share his life with – sad story man!

    Another friend died recently of pneumonia (??). He was thought to be gay for a LONG time but never admitted it to anyone. He lived in a country where admitting this would be difficult. He died without even a hope of finding love.

    I am not ‘flaunting’ homosexuality as you put it, simply asking people to question what they think about this issue.

    Anyway enough of that.

    Where does the church fit in?

    I don’t go to church very often, I don’t enjoy it! I am an agnostic – yet to be convinced and still learning, but open-minded.

    I am just not sure if the influence of the church in Barbados is an altogether positive thing. High church attendance is good for community cohesion, but I think it contributes towards political apathy. Barbadians have a reputation for being passive and church-going must be a factor. If you believe that God is all powerful then it takes away some of the responsibility from the individual!

    I like your line: “But this is so because the so-called ‘church’ is nothing more than a loose pack of jokers who could not find better employment.”

    There seem to be so many different churches all competing for a dwindling flock!

    Maybe the falling church numbers are a good thing. Maybe more people are questioning the guff that they spoon-fed week after week until they become brainwashed bible-quoting buffoons – I HOPE SO! Maybe they’re just too busy with the new religion – shopping!

    The reliance on this one book (from all the wisdom in world literature) has to be questioned!

    The bible is book of stories by multiple authors which has undergone multiple translations. It was meant as a book of parables and moralistic tales to be read to (or sometimes by) simple, ancient and primitive peoples. It may now be out of date!

    As to the role of the church. I don’t know man. I don’t go, I’ve tried it; its boring, would rather blog for 60 minutes! I learn more!


  21. These discussions are always interesting. Every man for he self.

    The question has yet to be answered. What is normal and what is not?

    I maintain that there can be no benefit to a man putting his penis into another man’s anus. It is similar to driving through a no-entry sign, you are not only breaking the law but it look real wrong.

    We all have a right to passionate about our sides of the fence. I will defend mine with all the passion that I have.

    The church becomes relevant in today’s society by not acquiescing and bowing to increasing pressure from groups who have their own agenda. Instead the church must know her principles and guidelines – which by the way YYILI is found in the Bible.

    The church becomes relevant in today’s society when it can say to all and sundry, I love you as a person but I cannot be partner to your sin.

    In this whole “homosexual” issue people have tried to paint the church as an organism that would reject people because they are different, which in my sphere is simply not the truth. However we will be quick to point out that there is another way – a better way.

    In parting _especially for YYILI who would attempt to launch some scathing attach; I was once told of these two women in a village, one was jealous of the other because one lived in a bungalow and the other in a chattel rented house. One day the woman that lived in the bungalow, becoming tired of the other woman’s taunts and insults simply said to her in front of the gathered crowd – ” what got you mad is what got me tame”. I am told that the attacks stopped from that day hence.

  22. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    Bajejun

    Possibly the sweetest thing about this whole deception is that no-one can prove it is not true!

    Sorry I’m not buying it!

    Where else in life would we believe in something so unproven. Kids believe in Santa Claus and maybe the Tooth Fairy and then they grow up and you expect them to swallow all of this!

    HAHA!

  23. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    Warrior

    Don’t worry I wouldn’t even know how to even start launching ‘a scathing attach’.

    Joking aside, I see your point.

    The church is split at the moment, but the momentum is towards acceptance of homosexuality.

    The American Anglican church has shown some funny rumbling in recent times. This church has accepted gays into their congregations and allows gays to be priests but stops short of condoning same sex civil unions.

    I read an interesting article about two American Anglican priests who resigned from the church and were re-annointed by the Anglican Church in Kenya which still disallows gay priests. This was as a protest to the US churches’ change in doctrine.

    They were quoting as saying “we accept gay people to come and join the congregation, but we don’t want them preching to us!”

    Interesting.

    The world is a changing and the church is being dragged along!

    Its all about bums on seats at the end of the day!


  24. People like yum yum and others who know nothing about the church or the bible – other than its name – always spouting off about these 2 things.

    I haven’t heard them discussing homosexuality and its rejection in the context of the muslim faith and we all know that islam totally rejects that homosexuality – and probably calls for more stringent response.

    So why not sound off on Islam and its belief?

    Even in good ole USA the majority of the population are not in favour of homosexuality,and even the Anglican church there which pushed this ordination of gay bishop thing,now had to back down as churches are leaving their grouping and aligninging with the conservative churches – so the USA liberal church has now agreed to the UK head church’s demand to stop ordaining gay priests or blessing same sex unions.

    Get it through your head even in so called liberal western countries – homosexuality is seen as strange,an abomination and is never accepted as normal.


  25. Why not let us get back to the role of the church in our society? We always let the homosexual issue derail the discussions. Can the church help to work with the parent who is absent in many homes and other civic organizations to win our societies back?


  26. David easier said than done sir.

    First and foremost many churches none more so than the Catholic Church has lost all credibility. They like other churches have “lost” their way in the wildeness.

    Even in propsperous countries the family unit has changed and both parents work and children at a young age is left to fend for themselves when they come home from school.

    You know better than me that children now have ALL kinds of legal rights and rights parents practice because of crap in books telling them the psychlogically correct way to bring up kids.

    In many countries you are charged for spanking your kid or run the risk of being charged. Kids have the right at a tender age to just leave home if they feel the discipline parents dish out is impacting their lawless lifestyle.

    Do you not rememember that the investigation of one of the many USA school slaughters showed the kid responsible was planning and practicing with a gun right in his own bedroom and the parents did not even have a clue. Parents now feel they have to knock and ask permission to enter their childs bedroom. Raising their voices at children is regarded as VERBAL ABUSE! I Give up!

    What is happening in society cannot be solved with simplistic solutions and the churches are becoming irrelevant. I have no answers and I doubt most feeling like you do.

    The days are over where you can train and deal with children by the time tested methods used on us with great success. Govermental, Legal and other such guidelines along with parents own mandates are responsible for what we are seeing. Drugs, TV and other such things are also playing a big part in it too. These were not things we had to cope with in our day!


  27. YUM YUM,

    You beginning to get me worried now… I actually like the way you are thinking and I am beginning to understand your position. (you seem to be saying “who are we to judge others?…” I REALLY RESPECT THAT.

    But back to the church as David said.
    I don’t go either- it is a waste of time because there is nothing for an intelligent person to learn and the people who go are not interested in learning anything that requires some intelligence- but that is their (and m) right, so no problems there.

    UNFORTUNATELY, it is clear to me that there is a GOD out there whose greatness and brilliance can be seen in the intricate designs we see in nature – and in every thing around us.
    So do I ingore this reality because church people are idiots? NOT ME SKIPPER !!!

    I have therefore spent my life trying to understand this God and his intentions – I LIKE what I have found, and it makes absolute sense to me. (and as a result I have been successful in EVERYTHING that I have done in my life so far…)

    To understand this issue, I suggest that we need to start at the beginning to understand:

    – WHO IS GOD?
    – Why was life as we know it created?
    – What therefore is the PURPOSE of life?
    – What makes a successful life?
    – What is the church?
    – What does an ideal society look like?

    what say you YUM?


  28. Sorry again David, that should be BUSH tea – typing too fast – have to get to work…


  29. […] Read the rest of this great post here […]


  30. Bajejun, I was simply making the point that you can make the bible say anything you want. I may not personally understand homosexuality but I don’t believe that it’s my, or anyone elses place, to judge. As for the church, I’m not a massive fan of organised religion. Spirituality yes – but look at your history and you start to realise that the organisation of the church is rather like that of any other human organisation – seriously flawed. When you add religious undertones and idiocy like Papal infallability and jihad you start to get Bad Things like Al Qaeda, the inquisition, paid indulgences, abuse and corruption. Admittedly, much good does come from organised religion but you don’t need to go to church to be religious and you certainly don’t need a religious heirachy to tell you how to live.

  31. Yum Yum I like it Avatar
    Yum Yum I like it

    Bush Tea

    My word!

    You ARE indeed going through a philosophical phase – it must be the full moon approaching and affecting your mental tides!! (ooh man that sounds kinda pagan doesn’t it?)

    You touch on a very interesting debate, one that has never truly been proven either way – and perhaps never will. That is the argument between Darwin’s theory of evolution AND the notion of intelligent design (lets treat ‘creation’ as a separate issue – for now – although it is actually continuous with the above).

    I too marvel at the beauty and complexity of nature, the vivid colours, the intricate shapes and the thousands of amazing animals and unique plants.

    Personally I’m with Mr Darwin a lot of the time on this one. However I must admit to times of doubt when logic is derailed by my sheer fascination about the diversity of the natural world.

    Evolution theory involves such incredibly complicated mathematics, as the time-scales involved are very long indeed and the length of animal or plant reproductive cycles is pretty short, hence making the number of mutation events very high (if you see what I mean). Animals with shorter life cycles will have the ability to evolve (theoretically) faster than those with longer cycles.

    There is a lot of scientific evidence to support evolution. Much of the evidence which supports ‘Intelligent Design’ is either

    1) “Oooh look how beautiful it all is – this can’t have happened by chance” sort of thing
    2) Contentious mathematics which state that the evolutionary process is not possible by probability in the time scale in which it occurs
    3) Theological evidence (mmmm!)

    Maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle (as with most bitter contentions). Maybe there is a higher power who steers the evolutionary process to favour production of more satisfactory mutations OR even an intelligent feedback system within the reproductive system?!

    I’ll get to God in a minute or so but I must go!

    I like the idea of intelligent design but it all seems a bit illogical to me! I can’t quite get a mental picture of the designer

  32. Yum Yum I like it Avatar
    Yum Yum I like it

    The last sentence is not finished sorry. OOPS!

  33. Yum Yum I like it Avatar
    Yum Yum I like it

    I like the idea of intelligent design but it all seems a bit illogical to me! I can’t quite get a feasible mental picture of the designer, this God fella!

    A lot of the inferences of christianity are that God is some sort of humanoid patriarchal figure.

    I know for sure that this is the God that I DON”T believe in! This ‘father of Jesus’, grey haired crinkled old sage image is no better than a polished up Santa Claus!!

    Maybe some people can help me along here? How do you mentally picture God?

    There may be a God I can believe in but this one would be less tangible and more of a force or an energy steering natural science.


  34. Bust Tea // Oct 23rd 2007 at 7:56 am
    But back to the church as David said.
    I don’t go either- it is a waste of time because there is nothing for an intelligent person to learn and the people who go are not interested in learning anything that requires some intelligence- but that is their (and m) right, so no problems there.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Many people are rightly fooled when they hear the word church. Church is not religion, or denomination but rather is a set of people of every nation tribe, peoples and tongue, who have heard a call to serve Christ and have answered that call.

    In Barbados I recognize that in years gone by Christians were expected to be poor, peaceful and polite, the more dowdy you looked the more holy people believed you were. In fact the ones who did not go to church would stand on the sidelines and insist that was the way one was to look act and think.

    In today’s context you can find Christians in the Boardrooms, Universities, running successful business and among the top intelectuals in this country and throughout the world.

    Bush Tea if you are in one breath trying to suggest that you are intellectual and liberal and open minded and then make a statement such as the one highlighted above then you have lost me, if indeed that was your intention.

    But then again it is always the foolish things of this world that confounds the wise

  35. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    Warrior

    Christians – open minded and liberal?

    Surely not!

    I think you got it all wrong about churches. Most churches are nothing more than glorified social clubs or community halls!


  36. YUM YUM I like it! // Oct 22nd 2007 at 11:07 pm

    Warrior

    Don’t worry I wouldn’t even know how to even start launching ‘a scathing attach’.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    That was my bad grammar, when one tries to get in their point instead of going to sleep all kind of things happen.
    …………………………………………………………………..

    Joking aside, I see your point.

    The church is split at the moment, but the momentum is towards acceptance of homosexuality.
    ……………………………………………………………………
    If the momentum is towards acceptance of homosexuality, then the church has forgotten who is her boss and who she reports to.

    A homosexual male or female is a person, a person that Jesus Christ died to save from sin. The church must accept a homosexual soul, but it must not and indeed cannot accept that the homosexual lifestyle or actions.


  37. The church – the eclisia – is relevant in today’s society, her role is spiritual, social, political, emotional as well as moral.

    Every day we are on these blogs lambasting the BLP and the DLP. I lambast them too because in my opinion they are un-patriotic to run or allow this country to run to pot. My prayer is always there must be some honest one among them that want to make a difference.

    The church has been hamstrung by a few who have misused authority and trust to do wrong things.

    However the role of the church has not diminished, when people really want help that is where they find themselves. We have been equipping ourselves in how best to deal with people with they come to us, be it prince or pauper, savant or simple.

    The church is here to help, to strengthen, equip and make ready not only individuals but entire families.

    The question remains – does society want the church to help?

  38. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    Warrior

    “The church is split at the moment, but the momentum is towards acceptance of homosexuality.”

    Maybe this is a victory for common sense over dogma! After all, many of the same churches did condone slavery back in those dark days. They changed their minds about that pretty sharpish!

    Anyway let us agree to differ. Life is to short for bickering – I’d rather understand more.

    PLEASE tell me what your mental image of God is – if that is not too personal a question. Is he a Herculean hulk or is he more like a Dumbledore (of Harry Potter fame)?


  39. Warrior let me say this to you with respect.

    In days gone by in Barbados PEOPLE NOT JUST CHURCH GOING PEOPLE BUT MOST WERE POOR, PIOUS, POLITE and LOOKED DOWDY ETC because Warrior they were. And many still are but let me ask you this with even greater respect.

    The people back then and many older folk today were it not for their religious beliefs I do not know how they could have endured their hardsships. And still be such loving, caring and considerate people. Their religion was their strength. They did not take drugs, wished you no harm, few would kill you etc.

    And before the non believers get after me let me make something very clear you are entitled to believe what you want. I am merely making a statement of fact on the impact religion had on the people of yesteryear. And you know what?

    It is like anything else, we are told “bush tea” “chicken soup” “ginger tea” and a host of other things can be successfully used to cure a multitude of illnesses. Modern medical experts say it is not founded that any of these things do one damn bit of good BUT IF THE PEOPLE USING THESE THINGS BELIEVE IT IS DOING THEM GOOD THEN TAKE THEM AS IT CAN DO THEM NO HARM.

    I wish I could find a religion or anything else that could give me the happiness and contentment the black and white people of yesteryear found from it to deal with the adversities they suffered. And most would say unlike me who wants to “kick ass ” “I will put it (their troubles and frustrations) in the hands of the Lord”. I rest my case!

  40. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    “The question remains – does society want the church to help?”

    Yes! Yes! Yes!

    Society wants the help of the church.

    Oh so badly!

    Take the youths off the streets and involve them in worthwhile pursuits.

    Organise trips for the elderley.

    Treat the AIDS patients to a day in Cattlewash.

    …….

    BUT this help must come without pre-conditions or without judgement, just love and open arms.

    If you give only to expect something back that is not altruism!


  41. YYILI:

    no, you’re dead right, if you give only to expect something back it is not altruism….. it’s a political donation!

  42. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    $750,000 would make a pretty cool youth club!


  43. Who would have thought that this article would have evoked such discussion that it would be ranked #1 post on BU at the moment. Go figure.

    The comments have straddled the continuum of views but we have to declare that we are in the camp of Warrior, no-name and Bush Tea et al camp. We agree that one does not have to go to Church to be a Christian but we still believe if it functions as envisage by wise people it is the best place to be to cement ones faith. There was a time when the church epitomized a place of refuge and strength for the spiritually and morally hungry. Nowadays it has become consumed by the politics and consumerism of the day. Church is now seen as a place where the owners can make money and or cement a powerbase of some kind. Someone said somewhere when this discussion began that we should get back to basics. The more our monkeys are climbing the career, educational and social ladder the more their asses are showing.

  44. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    David

    You are fortunate

    The article itself was poor

    The discussion has been much better

    Actually it is quite amusing if you go to the top of the page Mascoll looks like pervy priest blimping at the nude men – his expression is soooooo seedy! Hilarious!


  45. YUM don’t be apologetic, we welcome all feedback 🙂 As you know we are not afraid to share our views on a wide range of matters so that people like you can have fun poking holes in our arguments. The truth is we do enjoy the banter, so go tell your friends about us!


  46. YUM YUM I like it! // Oct 23rd 2007 at 3:59 pm

    Anyway let us agree to differ. Life is to short for bickering – I’d rather understand more.

    PLEASE tell me what your mental image of God is – if that is not too personal a question. Is he a Herculean hulk or is he more like a Dumbledore (of Harry Potter fame)?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    We are not bickering but putting our views on the table.

    I have never read or watched harry potter. I did see that the author said that one of her characters is gay.

    Your question with regards to my mental image of God is an interesting one. Come to think of it I don’t think I really have this mental image of God but rather a personal relationship where I know that He is my constant companion, friend, counsellor, brother, sister, friend or just plain old dad. No big thing.

    I think what has a lot of people confounded is whether He is white or black or brown, those little things cause people to have the wrong view of God. Some people think that the Bible is just fables, but you can find the image of God between the pages

    If you asked a 1000 people you would receive 1000 different answers; but I’ve given you mine.


  47. Hi again YUM YUM, busy day…
    So I’m going straight to the point…
    I understand your perspective so I will dive right into mine….

    God is not a ‘person’ but a group of beings, many more than 3, spiritual in nature, and whose level of existence is way above anything we can intellectualize.
    Not limited by time and space as we know them, and with immeasurable knowledge, skill and power to create control, etc. (imagine, to an extent, how our pets would see us)

    Our world is nothing but a ‘temporary’ project which has been conceived with a very special objective in mind. It has been deliberately limited by time and space and the focus of the project is clearly us human beings.

    Although we have been physically limited and constrained within the limits of time and space, man has been given a special gift – a mind that have baffled all attempts by science to comprehend it – a mind in God’s own image. We especially who like in these times, can appreciate the unlimited power of the human mind.
    THERE IS A REASON FOR THIS ….

    The project is for a specific time and when that time is fulfilled, there will be a final assessment as the results are sorted out.

    QUESTION!!
    For what purpose would such advanced beings have set up such a project?
    Is it, as many in church say, so that man can ‘praise’ God? ….. I think not….too petty
    Actually, the answer is so simple that it should be obvious to everyone. It is also the reason that the message brought by Jesus is called the GOSPEL (good news)

    Evolution has largely lost its appeal to real scientists. The problem is that there are too many intricacies that cannot be explained; too many inter-relationships that can only exist because of one another – and so could not have evolved independently as per evolutionary theory. Fact is it requires as much faith as does creation.

    Oh and I am no great intellectual or anything so… I reserve the right to get cranky from time to time warrior, besides, you try reasoning with mosquito and no name….


  48. David // Oct 23rd 2007 at 5:24 pm

    There was a time when the church epitomized a place of refuge and strength for the spiritually and morally hungry. Nowadays it has become consumed by the politics and consumerism of the day. Church is now seen as a place where the owners can make money and or cement a powerbase of some kind. Someone said somewhere when this discussion began that we should get back to basics. The more our monkeys are climbing the career, educational and social ladder the more their asses are showing.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    My barber and I once had a pretty heated conversation about women. He said bajan women were no good, I told him he got what he looked for.

    If you look for a church that is as you have described above then then that is what you will find. If you see foolishness and it ain’t lining up with the word of God brother mek a decision.

    I will not pretend that the church does not need money, money is needed to run and fund a ministry.

    By and large the churches in Barbados are getting out there in the community and doing what they have been called to do.

    BTW I don’t mind my a** showing as long as it is clean and in right standing with God.

  49. YUM YUM I like it! Avatar
    YUM YUM I like it!

    Bush Tea

    “God is not a ‘person’ but a group of beings, many more than 3, spiritual in nature, and whose level of existence is way above anything we can intellectualize.
    Not limited by time and space as we know them, and with immeasurable knowledge, skill and power to create control, etc. (imagine, to an extent, how our pets would see us)”

    This is great stuff. I love it!

    (It is VERY interesting to hear of peoples mental images of god. Thank you Warrior and BT for sharing this most personal aspect of your beliefs. Religuous imagery I think is often misleading. This must lead many christians to utter that age old adage -” I preferred the book”. Visuals often stifle the imagination!)

    Since the intelligent designer has a nature far beyond our comprehension and the mathematics of evolution are WAY too complicated for us to calculate, I guess we have reached an impasse which is beyond our feeble minds (especially at this time of night!).

    Bush Tea, you are truly a thinker and I admire that – trying to make order out of the chaos of life’s infinite complexity.

    Faced with the unfeasible nature of life, the universe and everything (and I don’t mean the Douglas Adams novel) we have reached a differing conclusion thus far.

    However what we retain in common is an open mind.

    THAT is worth 1000 days in church!

    If and when God comes to judge us do you think that he will count how many times we sat and snored on that creaky church bench next to the old lady from the bakery who smells of pee. NO WAY!

    He’s looking at the good we’ve done, the love we’ve given, the help we’ve offered without conditions, the qualities and positivity that we have encouraged in others.

    I don’t expect to be judged negatively for questioning the existence of God by God. Any sensible god would probably say words like “this guys smart and thorough, when others believed in me through hearsay this guy needed proof!”. After all we tell our kids not to talk to strangers, not to go with them or take anything from them! God is still a stranger to me , so he MUST understand my caution.

    I am a good person and I expect a front row seat in the celestial Kensington Oval (i.e heaven).

    Let us be judged by our actions NOT our hollow promises.


  50. #

    YUM YUM I like it! // Oct 22nd 2007 at 10:54 pm

    Bajejun

    Possibly the sweetest thing about this whole deception is that no-one can prove it is not true!

    Sorry I’m not buying it!

    Where else in life would we believe in something so unproven. Kids believe in Santa Claus and maybe the Tooth Fairy and then they grow up and you expect them to swallow all of this!

    HAHA!
    ……………………………………………………………………
    Funny thing Yum Yum is that we also believe in the wind but has never seen it .
    My point is I believe we were placed on this earth for a purpose, we did not make ourselves, and we certainly one day did not just appear. The study of the human body reveals how complex and detailed it is, equipped to deal with countless situations,the human mind superior to any other thing. We were placed here by someone far more superior than ourselves and I believe one day will come when we who think that we are our own boss and answerable to no one will find a harsh reality that this is not so. Even as we live and survive in this world that we live, we are not our own bosses, we cannot do as we please and we are still governed by laws, and if we break these laws there is a price to pay.
    I know some will say bajejun you talking foolishness. my question though is this, WHAT IF I AM RIGHT.

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