Est.2007

Barbados Underground

Bringing News and Opinions to the People

,

The Business Blog – Sagicor Votes to Redomicile

← Back

Your message to the BLOGMASTER was sent

CONTACT THE BLOGMASTER ONLY

From page A5 of the T&T Guardian (07/06/2016)
From page A5 of the T&T Guardian (07/06/2016)

Sagicor formerly the Mutual Society will vote to redomicile to Bermuda from Barbados tomorrow (8/06/2016). To carry the resolution will require 66.66% of the shareholder vote. For some Barbadians the decision to redomicile Sagicor is another key performance indicator that confirms a tanking economy.  In a nutshell, the 175 year old Bajan company will soon suffer the national disgrace of seeing this company consummate a legal divorce from Barbados. We are grateful that the company will be treated as a tax resident.

Discover more from Barbados Underground

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

106 responses to “The Business Blog – Sagicor Votes to Redomicile”

  1. Gabriel Avatar
    Gabriel

    Barbados was fast becoming a first world jurisdiction when a liar and cheat and a crook fooled less than 1/3rd of the voting public in 08,with all kinds of promises yet to be fulfilled by the party he left behind.Duty free cars for nurses,policemen,public servants.Duty free hardware and lumber for start up homes.What did these folk get instead.No pay increase,none of the duty freeness,no severance when they got fired,no jobs,no flying fish.
    It’s only now that Bajans realize they never had it so good with all the tax incentives,low unemployment and benefits coming from an OSA government that had a vision for the road to prosperity.All like now we would have had oil to refine and sell some to T&T in all.

  2. ac Avatar
    ac

    Naturally the blp yardfowls would hold steadfast to what they belives are weaknesses in govt policies using every perception necessary trying to weaken the govt resolve however in the long run those issue like auditorgeneral report would ran its course as govt put in place measures to correct those concerns .However as the economy continues to show further progress with an appreciative decline levels in unemployment and defecit.the blp yardfowls would gave no choice but to retreat to their noise of doom and gloom with WW&Company waving the banner of Corruption. Good luck guys the back bench awaits all of you in 2o18

  3. Artax Avatar
    Artax

    We have to think beyond the sentimental and emotional attachment to Sagicor and realize that the insurance company’s relocation to Bermuda is simply a business decision, influenced by the number of credit rating downgrades that Barbados has received from the international and regional credit rating agencies. Then we have to examine how these downgrades affected Sagicor’s business operations.

    Credit ratings can convey information to the market about a firm’s credit quality. As you are aware, banks and insurance companies invest in international firms and the bond markets, and as such continual downgrades of a country’s credit rating may affect the capital requirements these companies are subject to when investing in particular firms.

    Additionally, the firm may experience difficulty in accessing loans, an increase in the cost of debt and there may be a corresponding decrease in investments.

    A decline in credit ratings can affect a firm’s access to the bond and commercial paper markets because of regulations on institutional investors, and can also “precipitate” events such as bond covenant violations, increases in bond coupon rates or loan interest rates, and forced bond repurchases.

    These are just a few things that we must take into consideration.

  4. BEWARE OF YARD-FOWLS!!!!! Avatar
    BEWARE OF YARD-FOWLS!!!!!

    “Naturally the blp yardfowls would hold steadfast to what they belives are weaknesses in govt policies using every perception necessary trying to weaken the govt resolve however in the long run those issue like auditorgeneral report would ran its course as govt put in place measures to correct those concerns .However as the economy continues to show further progress with an appreciative decline levels in unemployment and defecit. the blp yardfowls would gave no choice but to retreat to their noise of doom and gloom with WW&Company waving the banner of Corruption. Good luck guys the back bench awaits all of you in 2o18.”

    Not one comment on the Sagicor issue, just the usual rhetorical party political diatribe. People have gone past that shiite.

    BEWARE OF YARD-FOWLS!!!!!!

  5. David Avatar
    David

    @Artax

    All countries will suffer credit rating movement. Sagicor’s decision to redomicile in s not a sign of confidence that we will be able to pull back anytime soon. We can extrapolate and extend the lack of confidence to the local property vote sector and foreign investors.

  6. Well Well & Consequences Avatar
    Well Well & Consequences

    The yardfowls were all steadfast on Cahill and fingerprint. ..and this snd that…and all the other incompetencies by DLP, and guess what…it all fell apart and their political master embarassed them and showed them up as useless liars by coming out and telling the public something completely different..lol

    @yardfowlshavenoshame.

  7. Frustrated Businessman aka "Refer teefin' to the DPP!" my ass. Avatar
    Frustrated Businessman aka “Refer teefin’ to the DPP!” my ass.

    The Sagicor evacuation proves once again that inaction can have more dire consequences than poorly conceived action.

    “If you are going through Hell, keep going!” SWC.

  8. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Surprised that Artax would fall for the silly excuse about them moving because of the country’s credit rating. Sagicor is moving because Barbados is no longer doing well enough to enrich them via their mediocre initiatives ..as had been the case now for decades.

    Like COW and Bizzy, they basically sat around making easy money in insurance, in a country where government provided all the guarantees, the legislative framework, and the incentives (tax and otherwise) for them to do so.

    Imagine a century-old mature company investing in Agriculture only to complain about “not getting subsidies from government”. At what stage did they plan to bring something positive to the table …to make a CONTRIBUTION to the country that they milked for over one hundred years?

    One would have thought that these old companies, like Mutual, BL&P, Banks, BS&T etc, that benefitted and grew fat off the masses of this country for multiple DECADES, would see it as a national duty, now that times are rough, and leadership is shiite, …to play a meaningful role in directing us back on track. Instead, like the true parasites that they always were, they have either sold out to strangers and run off with the proceeds, or are looking to hop onto another host in the hope of continuing their parasitic existence….

    Managed by a clique of long-term mediocre jokers, Sagicor has shown no initiative, no vision, and no business acumen. The share value is nothing to speak of, and like Banks and BL&P, no doubt we will shortly hear of some far-away concern making them an offer that the directors will be keen to have shareholders accept…. after which the share value, like Banks and BL&P will ‘suddenly be tripled’ ….. telling a clear story of current and past shareholders having been fleeced of their rightful dividends.

    Froon may be the king of Bajan brass bowls, but he is merely numero uno among hoards of other bowls, pimps, parasites and prostitutes at all levels of society.

  9. Prodigal Son Avatar
    Prodigal Son

    @Gabriel June 8, 2016 at 2:32 PM #

    “It’s only now that Bajans realize they never had it so good with all the tax incentives,low unemployment and benefits coming from an OSA government that had a vision for the road to prosperity.All like now we would have had oil to refine and sell some to T&T in all”…..

    ……………………………….

    Gabriel,

    My thoughts exactly.

    When the BLP lost in 2008, I said look after all the hard work which Mia put in and which was pooh poohed by the DLP that the dems would now come and reap the rewards of oil money pouring in.

    But remember the “Mr I will not Lie, Cheat or Steal” said that there was no oil and that the BLP was lying to the people. This was even before he read any files but then again, we know he was a lied liar.

    I would like to find out whatever happened to the first contract that these morons signed some tears ago? Did the company ever drilled? I was at dinner one night at Daphne’s and there was something off the coast which looked like an oil rig. I was told that it was out there for some time and it did seem to the couple we were with that some thing was going on.

    But since that time, there was nothing said by the government until a few weeks ago when another contract was signed with a different company.

  10. NorthernObserver Avatar
    NorthernObserver

    WPress playing the cursor freeze game today!!!

    @David
    This is likely a ‘good time’ with the best reasons they have ever had to exit, without saying “Bim is too small”, we need to grow elsewhere. Bajans will vote with heart, but when it comes to money expect a completely different approach. It is about ME, not WE.

  11. Prodigal Son Avatar
    Prodigal Son

    @ Artax June 8, 2016 at 2:51 PM #

    We have to think beyond the sentimental and emotional attachment to Sagicor and realize that the insurance company’s relocation to Bermuda is simply a business decision, influenced by the number of credit rating downgrades that Barbados has received from the international and regional credit rating agencies. Then we have to examine how these downgrades affected Sagicor’s business operations.
    …………………………………………………………………………………

    Could not agree with you more, Artax.

    I vote yes as I have a vested interest …….cannot allow my hard worked for investments go down the tube as a result of this poor rakey government.

  12. NorthernObserver Avatar
    NorthernObserver

    @AC
    methinks this B yardfowl shiite is spreading….as most global financial lenders seem to share that B yardfowlism. I think the senior gov’t officials need to convene an international conference [you know how a Bajan love a conference, esp when it is away] and explain economics to these international yardfowls. Call it “Fumbleomics, Stinkdata and the LowDown on social policy for small island states in the 21st Century”.

  13. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ NorthernObserver June 8, 2016 at 1:59 PM
    “Froon will realize the “rubbishing” he is fond of, will soon come home to roost.
    I am also told there has been a clamping down on for-ex for personal uses unless you have a friend.”

    What you have alluded to is one of the sure signs of serious troubles ahead for this small openly vulnerable economy.
    The coming scarcity of foreign exchange to feed the voracious beast of Bajan conspicuous consumption will be the wild cat that jumps into the domesticated pigeon coop and flicks the atomic switch of economic meltdown.

    Did Froon make any comments on the Sagicor ‘expatriation’ during his recent fêting of the moribund Press? Or did he tactfully preempt any future inquisitive enquiries by the Press by filling their bellies?

  14. Artax Avatar
    Artax

    Interesting points, David, confidence in Barbados’ economy comes into question, and especially so, since an ingenious company, which has been in Barbados for 175 years, decides to relocate.

    Investors use sovereign credit ratings to give them an insight to the level of financial and political risk associated with investing in any particular country. Obviously, potential foreign investors will take this development with Sagicor into consideration.

    Another development that should also be taken into consideration is that, on December 19, 2014, Standard & Poor’s Rating Services downgraded Sagicor Life from BB+ to BB-, AS A RESULT of a sovereign rating downgrade of Barbados’ credit rating from BB- to B.

    At that time, S&P reason for capping the ratings at two notches above the country of domicile (Barbados) was due to Sagicor having HIGH COUNTRY RISK SENSITIVITY.

    We must also bear in mind that Sagicor does not operate in Barbados only, but in 20 other countries, including Belize, Eastern Caribbean, Dutch Antilles, Panama, T&T, Jamaica, Cayman Islands and Sagicor USA Inc., which operates in the USA.

    Therefore, the insurance company, as a large corporate entity, has an obligation not to jeopardize operations in its subsidiaries, especially if the company faces corresponding downgrades in the event Barbados suffers other downgrades.

  15. David Avatar
    David

    @NortherObserver

    Agree with your last comment, EMERA is a good example of what will happen. Imagine the NIS (government) selling off shares! What do you expect the citizens to do except follow the leadah leadah.

  16. ac Avatar
    ac

    And did not the BLp govt encourage these mendicants. but for some of them once the gravy train stopped flowing it was time to close shop and go else where to find greener pastures

  17. ac Avatar
    ac

    i recall at some time sagicor audit found that half million was missing lost or stolen from sagicor . never heard what was the outcome

  18. In The News Avatar
    In The News

    http://www.nationnews.com/nationnews/news/37968/-sagicor-manager-dodds

  19. Crusoe Avatar
    Crusoe

    Artax June 8, 2016 at 4:26 PM #

    That is it in a nutshell. Those who are condemning Sagicor for the re-domicile are way off base.

    A financial services company MUST have a good credit and counterparty rating. That rating affects the ability to do business with other such companies per se, affects the cost of doing that business (interest costs) and ability to seek capital and loans.

    The company credit and counterparty rating is very much impacted by the country rating.

    And with Barbados’s country rating in the gutter, such a company really has very little choice but to re-domicile.

    With that out of the way:

    The naysayers are bashing, but, the only other alternative would be if the Caribbean islands, and more, were still in a strong and real non-aligned movement, such that funds could be sourced between a large number of smaller and lesser developed countries, each with their own comparative advantage.

    However, with the UN virtually emasculated by the past twenty years of international foreign policy, with ‘stronger’ non-aligned nations such as Libya, who would have lent at fair interest costs, or even none, now put into turmoil by actions which in of themselves were questionable (has the intent been achieved), with smaller nations now rushing to whomever has the dollars or yen, rather than remaining non-aligned, there is no such possibility.

    That is a much more involved debate and relates to international relations, but it is relevant.

  20. David Avatar
    David

    “Crusoe

    Are you saying the leading indigenous companies in Jamaica, Trinidad and the like are incorporated outside of T&T?

  21. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    This propensity to think purely in terms of what is ‘best for accessing money’ is central to the curse that is destroying us all. It is what Bushie calls albino-centricity. What about considering WHAT YOU CAN CONTRIBUTE TO THOSE WHO FACILITATED YOUR VERY BEING…?

    How the hell does a society raise up and nurture a billion-dollar multi-national organisation over a century ….. and that national asset has no meaningful role to play when the going gets rough? ….but you can have persons justifying it looking instead, for greener pastures so it can continue its parasitic existence?

    Lotta shiite.

    That is like a family investing in its elder son, with sacrifices being made by everyone else in the family to ensure that he becomes successful. Then, when hard times come, this bastard runs off to join a new, “better off” family – because his original family is now ‘too poor to continue to support him at his accustomed level’.
    Is he not the very investment made for the hard times….?

    Damn disgraceful.
    Not only Sagicor, but also those who are able to justify such shiite.

  22. millertheanunnaki Avatar
    millertheanunnaki

    @ Bush Tea June 9, 2016 at 7:05 AM

    Bushie you have a point about Sagicor’s perceived ‘unpatriotic’ behavior after making its wealth initially from the blood, sweat and sacrifice of very hardworking black Bajans (mainly).

    However, you must admit Sagicor is just following the examples set by the country’s representative, the Government of Barbados. I am sure you remember the sale of the BL&P shares. BL&P is one of the safest investments in Bim.

    How could the NIS divest itself of such a strategic (and profitable) asset for a fix of forex to feed the beast of conspicuous consumption? Aren’t such actions deemed totally immoral (if not criminal in intent) by putting at severe risk the livelihood of many hardworking Bajans in their golden years?

    Now you can’t blame whitey or the albino-centric mafia for that now, can you BT?

  23. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Miller
    You cannot tell Bushie who to blame for what… 🙂

    True, Sagicor is just following the brass bowl lead, but surely you can understand that when a simple-minded family takes a decision to make sacrifices and send their eldest boy to university, sponsor him with a big comfortable home, wash his car for him, and even whack his lawn every week or so, it is NOT with the expectation that such a privileged son would become a FOLLOWER in the family – merely copying what the other brass-bowl, uninitiated children were doing…

    Shiite Miller – should such a son not be a trailblazer for the family?
    Should he not have been providing LEADERSHIP? …SUPPORT for the ACs and other yardies of the family? …role models for the misguided? …hope for the hopeless?

    Should he not have been the family member best able to admonish the jackass Froon ..and to redirect the hapless Stinkliar? …to speak out on CAHILL? …on SBRC, IONICS? …to support the Auditor general?

    Steupsss …Bushie even blames you…and the role that you played (or did not play) when you were powerful – far less the whitey and the albino-centric mafia.

    Anyway, we are passed all that. There is a time and season for everything, and we have now reached the time and season when our chickens will be coming home to roost….
    It will be rough, but perhaps some of us will yet see the light….

  24. de pedantic Dribbler Avatar
    de pedantic Dribbler

    Bush Tea, your screed rubbishes the basic factual enormity of Artax’s post. It rubbishes the fact that when Barbados had it’s frigging business house in order companies wanted to be associated with us and remain domiciled here as a HQ. Although even then the Barbados market had stopped being their MAJOR profit center.

    At which point do you start to accept that with a population of less than that of the daily traveling transit public in a city like Chicago, or with a population that could travel through Heathrow Airport over a week and bother them only as a boring yawn, that our market is really SMALL.

    We are insignificant unless we MAKE our country significant. Our leaders have made us insignificant as a business center. That is what is disgraceful.

    Business decisions can be harsh and absolutely they can annihilate a town or community by their actions…but Sagicor is doing what it has to do. No kudos to them but Barbados is but one star in their wide galaxy.

    The elder son is not running off …he is saying to his original family, ‘things looking a little brown and its wise for me to cast my net to new lands so that WE have a solid fall-back plan in case things really go wrong. You my first family will continue to have my attention and support.

    Your analysis is absolutely too simplistic as a serious remark.

    How bout when the elder son’s old man told him that these foreigners in nah good and he should not get involved with that woman from over in a way…or that a ratings agency downgrade means nothing.

    But you pontificate superbly…and does sound real sweet, I am sure that Stuart will use your line of attack when next asked about this pull-out. LOLL.

  25. Pachamama Avatar
    Pachamama

    The people who continue to believe the nonsense that disaster capitalism in Barbados is be running Sagicor are willful idiots.

    A still emerging sub-field, some will say, where rent seekers see calamity as prime opportunities to make extraordinarily higher net margins.

    Surely the big brain people at Sagicor are well aware of this. Indeed, their determination to seek other pastures maybe counter-intuitive. Not well studied. A misguidance.

    It might even prove to be no better than staying put. In which case losses could mount. But they need a corporate soothsayer to predict which of these two or more pictures of the future is most likely.

    That is the biggest problem they have faced. A chronic lack of confidence in their medium and long term planners – to put it mildly.

    Disaster capitalism in Barbados may well represent a much better opportunity than the dated, conservative, slow-minded, anachronistic corporate response contemplated.

    This window into the mind of Sagicor’s leadership is very revealing. As investor, we won’t bet on them.

    They have not gotten anything right in 20 years and we believe, if history is any judge, that they will get this wrong AGAIN.

  26. Pachamama Avatar
    Pachamama

    The people who exclusively blame a feckless DLP regime are yard fowls.

    Seeking to get another wicked BLP government into power will solve nothing. Might make things worse, if that is possible.

    They should recognize that, culturally, these systems, whether political or economic, can go no further. And should seek transformation, declaring B/DLP proscribed organizations, like Daesh.

    A deeper cultural analysis is required.

  27. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Dribbler
    Trust you to understand Sagicor’s way of thinking….
    Did your family invest in you before your re-domicile?
    …or was it more a case of them raising funds to get rid of you…?

  28. Frustrated Businessman aka 'Refer teefin' to the public prosecutor' my ass. Avatar
    Frustrated Businessman aka ‘Refer teefin’ to the public prosecutor’ my ass.

    Many posters here seem to be stuck in the socialists’ hysterical belief that the state can force citizens (including corporate citizens) to do what it wishes despite short-term consequences for individuals and the long-term decline of the state itself.

    Every time agriculture is discussed here some raving lunatic says that farmers should be forced to farm despite losses and shouldn’t be allowed to sell their loss-making land ‘for the greater good of Barbados’. That’s fine until it’s you in debtors gaol!

    Now we are to force Sagicor to stay in Bim, despite the fact that our poor credit rating is affecting their ability to borrow money (in the form of deposits and other investments) and the consequential cost of that money directly affecting their bottom line.

    What planet of morons (or Mormons) do you fools come from?

    Just address the PROBLEMS and not the SYMPTOMS!!!!!!!!!!!

    Barbados’ credit rating wouldn’t be so poor if the economy wasn’t mismanaged. We wouldn’t be ‘junk’ investment status if we weren’t borrowing and printing money to maintain the illusion that our civil-servant burdened socialist state is sustainable.

    But there is a bigger problem; the gov’t of Barbados has said or done NOTHING to correct the problem. Corruption has already chased new investors from our shores, mismanagement will continue to chase out successful companies like Goddards (who said 2 years ago they weren’t investing in Bim any more) and Sagicor.

    Spew all the political and ideological BS you like, there are financial realities that are oblivious to rhetoric and they are getting more serious every passing day.

    And today is an important day. If McDowall is ousted today the NUPW will once again be a DLP serf.

  29. Pachamama Avatar
    Pachamama

    The Frustrated Businessman is more frustrated than business and much more ignorant than ‘centible’.

    He seemed to be locked into a BLP/DLP duopoly mentality.

    We wonder what kind of a world could there be for BLP or DLP pimps to control workers’ organizations. We do not recognize that as the only world there could be.

    You called us ‘socialists’. We don’t call ourselves that but you have. For us, we care not what colour the cat is once it catches mice. And RAAAAASsoul capitalism has NEVER caught any mice for the vast majority of the peoples of the world. Instead of making things better capitalism is delivering us all a neo-feudalism, yuh Brassbowl idiot.

    You will come to see this after the world is transformed. And that is what make you an eminent Bajan asshole. Only after the future is determined can you see. With businessmen like you we will always be underdeveloped and walking around with our houses on our backs.

    Socialism, formally, collapsed more than 20 years ago. Only ass holes can be ignorant enough to continue with this canard. Your problems and frustrations seem to be your lack of an ability to get enough of the goodies for yourself from this dying system. You give not an *uck about anybody else. Once yuh big guts full.

    In this respect you are mouthing the sentiments of people like Bizzy Williams. Like him, you don’t mind socialism for the rich and for businessmen, like you pretend to be, but there must be capitalism for everybody else. This game is over, yuh female rabbit!

    He talked about farmers. We wonder who those farmers are. Are they the farmers who worked land in this country for hundreds of years giving free labour. Or is it that your colonial, mentality is unable to measure that in your calculations. What about the would be farmers whose lands were stolen?

    For you only a BLP government will end all your frustrations. Can’t you see that there are more germane matters that the woman who you think is washed in the blood of the lamb, MAM, has not a clue to solve. And that she merely wants power for power’s sake. Can’t this be seen by you. And if yuh could, should we not see past the next election?

    You talk about about symptoms verses problems. Are the Sagicor and their ilk not the people who really run this economy? And is it not true that your political saviors have always been water boys for the corporate elites? Now these very elites are failing, and they must, why blame the water boys. That that the water boys should not be sentenced to death.

    You are the idiot. We could not stop your heroes at Sagicor from de-mutualizing and we warned them then. They forced it through with the help of consistent idiots like you. Now there have fucked that up you are seeking to blame us not your vision-less imbeciles in corporate Barbados.

    You idiot, Sagicor was lost to Barbados every before it started. Ordinary Bajans were always on the periphery. Never got to use their own capital. Never got to serve on their Board. Never even got the right to vote. Then a Brassbowl, an uncomplicated asshole like you would like to make people believe that this matter is merely about a misguided DLP government.

  30. Alvin Cummins Avatar
    Alvin Cummins

    @Bushie,
    understand you are a mathematician so you would be familiar with the Theorem “Things that are equal to the same thing are equal to one another.” I do not claim to be equal to you, but you have expressed the same sentiments as me. Any company that has existed in this country for 175 years, whose supporters are claiming that it is due to the “non-payment of Government subsidies, as the reason for movement of its head quarters, deserves to have all its landholdings expropriated and; should I say, “mutualized”? This is the most blatant display of an absence of patriotism that I know of. But then Sagicor is not a Barbadian company. It is foreign owned and controlled. We have had this aura of Barbadian ownership for a long time but it went when the “Mutualists”, realized that they no longer had exclusive access to the building on lower Broad Street. When Blacke peoples’ consciousness was awakened, and it was forced to “demutualize”. Then, like those who left, hurriedly, took off for roaring lands. The abandoned the land; not its ownership, and gave it up to whatever bush and “weeds” wanted to possess , Not caring , perhaps not understanding, what could be done with it.

    Prodigal:
    Dinner at Daphne’s, Expensive isn’t it? Thus I get an idea of the folk you associate with. However, to the subject. of oil drilling and your obvious need for understanding. During the OSA years, do you remember that after the declaration of the Tribunal at the Hague, delineating the boundaries between Barbados and Trinidad,(The impression given by the then government was that it was supposed to be an arbitration on a Fishing Agreement, although that was far from the truth) areas; north of Barbados, that showed promise for oil and gas exploration, were divided into “sections” and these were offered to bidders who wanted to explore. Each “section” could be bid on, after acceptance they could drill in that particular section. Thus even though you might see a ship when it came into port, after that you would not see it because it would be out to sea far off the north coast of the island. So if you did not see it again, don’t attach anything sinister to its absence, or assume that its absence was because of government inaction. If I remember correctly, the latest selling of another; “the Blackberry” section was agreed to a few weeks ago. I am sure you are aware of this but, as usual, you are up to your old tricks of disinformation or false information.
    By the way, What hard work did Mia put in? Liz was the Minister responsible at that time and OSA was Prime Minister. Everything Mia did was a disaster. She was responsible for the Supervisor of Insurance when CLICO began to unravel. She was AG when the prisoners rioted,burned Glendairy down and the prisoners were moved to North Point. She was AG when the agreement with SSS was signed to build a new Prison, she it was who reported to the house on the cost, giving the impression that the cost was in BDS dollars when in fact it was in US dollars; (compare that with your criticism of Chris’s decimAL point, She has so far lost there motions of NO Confidence, and more.

    Can’t fool me though!

  31. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Barbados’ credit rating wouldn’t be so poor if the economy wasn’t mismanaged.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    If the pampered, educated and spoon-fed son would have taken his rightful place in the family, instead if glutinously and selfishly gobbling up every thing he could (and divorcing himself from the family that empowered him – via ‘de-mutualisation’ ) perhaps we would have benefited from better management ….and better credit ratings.

    When your first son turns out to be a parasite and traitor, you have worse problems than just bad credit ratings….

  32. Crusoe Avatar
    Crusoe

    @ David,

    In response to your query, I do not think that those J’ca and T&T companies that you refer to are listed on the US stock exchange?

    That impacts the business environment of the company in question.

    No doubt those directors who put the proposal must see Sagicor as growing and becoming a larger and more successful company than thus far.

    What that may imply, if it is to become larger geographically, is that local policyholders may become a small part of their portfolio.

    But, there is always room for other local companies to fill any perceived void, so I do not think it an issue.

    If Sagicor were to become a large US insurer, surely that would be a good thing?

  33. Crusoe Avatar
    Crusoe

    And by proposal above I mean the event when the company became listed overseas.

  34. David Avatar
    David

    @Crusoe

    The president stated the 1% room re-domiciling gives Sagigor would have saved them about 3 million dollars in the bond just floated to restructure debt. Will it be worth it?

  35. de pedantic Dribbler Avatar
    de pedantic Dribbler

    @ Bush Tea at 8:43 AM , I do not pretend to “…to understand Sagicor’s way of thinking….”

    Whenever you can’t respond to a view with a clear purposeful retort you resort to the little snide personal remarks…LOLLLL. For a big boy you are quite predictable.

    I believe it was @B Codrington who said to the effect that there is more than the mortal in this pestle, so I would be a fool to determine that I understand exactly what is driving this action although Artax’s technical business analysis indicates that the lowered bond ratings is a key driver, of course.

    At a level of very simple common sense it is absurd to perceive as you have that an island the size of Barbados has a ‘hold’ on this corp. Let’s put the 175 years into proper context please…

    — Barbados is one of 22 local markets in which it operates.
    — It sources millions of $$ on the US capital markets via bond offerings and thus must play the financial game well. And it also has operational business in Arizona, Florida and Oklahoma there.

    If Barbados wants to continue to operate at a high level it too must play the financial game. So if the PM scoffs at the relevance of bond ratings he clearly is aiming to play by his own rules and the only way he can do that if if he has very deep financial resources. The country does not.

    Let’s further get real. Their Sagicor Life segment (including Barbados, Trinidad and Tobago, the Eastern and Dutch Caribbean islands, Belize, Bahamas and Panama) generated revenue of US $350 million back in 2013.

    BUT….their Sagicor Jamaica Segment (including Jamaica and Cayman Islands) generated revenue of US $464 million.

    The actual island figures I didn’t research but that is $114 million more from the Jam operational segment than the one including Barbados….which was one of 10+ locales.

    Yet you are offering simplistic blarney that Bdos biggest son leffing he family. Steeupse.

    As I said earlier you talk really, really sweet. Not practical and real in this case but sweet.

  36. de pedantic Dribbler Avatar
    de pedantic Dribbler

    @David, Crusoe can answer your ‘rhetorical’ query but I’ll say this. $3 million dollars could be considered chump change depending on how one looks at it. Important $$ in lost fees by the brokers doing the deal or a lost percentage point on the CEO’s bonus but rather incidental as a possible dividend repayment.

    But the key point I wanted to make is the Sagicor is now no more a Bajan company than cricket is a WI dominated sport. Both have strong roots in Barbados and still have very real links yet time and circumstances have overtaken the sentimentality of Mutial/Sagicor’s birth here some 175 years ago.

    We had this conversation with the Banks Breweries takeover and we will have it again when Goddards hits the news with a possible take-over or some such.

    Coincidental and ironic that both Sagicor (through Life of Barbados) and Banks have connections to Guyana…just another reminder that where and how these companies have evolved and grown and now continue to evolve and grow into the 21 century cannot be viewed in simplistic terms.

  37. Artax Avatar
    Artax

    “Bush Tea June 9, 2016 at 7:05 AM #

    How the hell does a society raise up and nurture a billion-dollar multi-national organisation over a century ….. and that national asset has no meaningful role to play when the going gets rough? ….but you can have persons justifying it looking instead, for greener pastures so it can continue its parasitic existence?

    Damn disgraceful. Not only Sagicor, but also those who are able to justify such shiite.”

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The above was written by an individual who is clearly out of his depth relative to business and the operations of large insurance companies. Just a lotta emotional shiite that does not mean anything in the real business world. You need to stop the sentimentalism and emotionalism.

    Although Sagicor has moved its offices to Bermuda, the company is still Barbadian. The move was a business decision to make the company more attractive to customers and investors.

    Insurance companies are involved in “risk management” and earn revenue from customers’ premiums (underwriting income), investing those premiums in various investment instruments such as bonds, real estate and money market funds (investment income), and insurance policies from other insurance companies.

    Investors do not invest based on the emotional or sentimental attachment a business may have to people. They are mainly interested in their return on investment. As such, they rely on financial information from credit rating agencies, as well as insurance rating agencies such as A.M Best Rating Services.

    Similarly to how investors lose confidence in a country that has been given a credit rating downgrade, an insurance company that has been downgraded will likewise lose investor confidence. Companies with large pension funds look for financially stable insurance companies to manage their insurance portfolios.

    The government can sell bonds, ask Dr. Delisle to print money and “borrow” from the NIS fund. Insurance and other companies do not have such options or privileges.

    Shiite, many of us here in BU have never managed a lemonade stand far less a multi-national corporation that operates in 21 countries including the USA.

    No one is justifying anything……. THESE ARE THE FACTS OF BUSINESS.

  38. Crusoe Avatar
    Crusoe

    David June 9, 2016 at 7:05 PM #

    It is clearly about more than just one bond. I did not see his full statement, but surmise that referring to the $3Million saving on one bond, was just an example of the impact of differences in sovereign ratings.

    But the impact is surely much more significant, if the company wishes to do business internationally.

    Basically, with a junk rating, one may as well shut the company down. No banks will do business with you and no other insurance companies would do business with you.

    If one wishes to push against this, then the time for that was when it was before it went ‘international’.

    Even then, even for a locally operating company, to put oneself in a position (by the default action of doing nothing i.e. not re-domiciling), such that a low rating removes any chance of international borrowing, is a difficult road to push.

    So, no. I really do think that they had no choice.

    May I suggest that Sagicor, in this case, is just the messenger?

    Do not shoot the messenger.

    Two elections ago, on these very blogs, I and others warned about the Government debt position, even before the current Government reached power.

    One can pull a rubber band only so far.

  39. Pachamama Avatar
    Pachamama

    As persons who have been intimately involved in these matters, personally and professionally, and otherwise, for many years, we must state that the person who calls himself, Bush Tea is right.

    He might not have had the experiences we’ve had but his instincts for spot on.

    Everybody else who pretends to want to counter what he is saying is either highly ‘uninformed’ or has such a low self image that any intent for cultural development is seen as enemy, impossible, anathema.

  40. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Pacha
    If you REALLY understood the nature of Artax and Dribbler you would not only grasp why they can see with Sagicor, but it would also become crystal clear why our society is doomed for blacks.
    It is persons such as Artax who have attained academic heights in albino-centric economics who have set us on the path to doom. What is amazing is that, having dug us into this big hole with their nonsense, their solution is for us to dig harder.

    Sagicor is a potential life-saver for Barbados. But in the international arena, it is nothing but an incompetent set of old-timers. One would have thought that their forays into Jamaica and Lloyds of London would have taught that lesson. It is penny wise and pound foolish to use shiite arguments about saving $3M on a bond issue to justify re-domicile.

    In a sensible world, Sagicor should have been major investor in BS&T, Bartel, BL&P, Banks and in the Hotel industry (given its value to Barbados). These are profitable home markets where they enjoy competitive advantages.
    As such, they would have been in position to strongly influence governmental and business behaviour – much like Bizzy and Maloney does now for their own ends, BUT, given a culture of professionalism, Sagicor would have been a NEEDED influence towards professional and ethical practices.

    Had Sagicor remained a Mutual Society, such wide ownership and influence would have been representative of the wide Barbadian population, thus justifying an influence on government matters.

    Persons who think like Artax, supported them being de-mutualised – on the argument that they would be more ‘successful’, and such persons now support them being re-domiciled, for the same reason. The first move was clearly designed to disenfranchise Black Bajans ….and this second one is all about them washing their hands of us now that things are hard.

    Bushie predicts that both Barbados AND Sagicor will suffer badly as a result of the selfish, albino-centric thinking being displayed.

  41. Georgie Porgie Avatar
    Georgie Porgie

    Bush Tea June 10, 2016 at 8:35 AM

    There is much merit in your opinion above.

    In 74, when I was studying in Jamaica, I attended a church in which one of the elders is said to have owned one of the biggest insurance companies there. it is said that he had a lot of say on currency matters in that country then. His opinion was sought.

    If the leaders of the Mutual were on top of their game, had similar influence and were playing to win instead of just “playing for a draw” and “for close of play” they ought to have indeed invested in BS&T, Bartel, BL&P, Banks and in the Hotel industry (given its value to Barbados).

  42. de pedantic Dribbler Avatar
    de pedantic Dribbler

    The tendency too often on this site as in life generally is to get into emotional shouting matches on serious affairs rather than offering objective technical analysis. The denizens who post here are intelligent and experienced and that level of acuity demands less emotional bluster and more analysis.

    This matter needs its own blog with a proper scoping of the facts upon which these emotional rants can be developed and/or debunked for what they are.

    The positions being adopted by @Pachama and @Bush Tea are one side of a business equation. And like ALL business decisions can really only be finally validated based on their success.

    The key question then becomes WHAT is success. Is it the double digit growth of a company year over year; is it expansion beyond the narrow shores of Barbados; is it to be the preeminent corporate entity in the home local and drive the political and social development of the nation to first world status???

    Or is it a part and parcel of all of those and more?

    Simply stated we cannot emotionalize the $$ of business. It doesn’t work that way.

    How can we dismiss the wide reach of Sagicor as a multinational corp by suggesting that they should have been more heavily invested or involved in consumer production, telecommunication, retail and hospitality in the local market. Sagicor is and insurance and financial services firm. Surely they could have invested in those entities and maybe they were.

    And what makes them more competent across such different disciplines than anyone else?

    Why did the cooperatives in this nation not also establish strong positions across these same industries and corps?

    Suffice to say arguments can be made for or against large corps spanning multiple industries.

    Is a GE of the 70s and 80s under Welch overseeing from retail to finance to airplane manufacturing to oil services to military defense contracting etc the way to go or an Apple corp’s focused structure in its narrow band ideal? Certainly current business think goes to the focused corporate structure. At the end of the day it will depend on what the SHAREHOLDERS determine.

    But beyond that type of strategic business planning, Barbados is very small. We also sit in a hurricane zone and too an earth-quake area.

    It would be tantamount to suicide for Sagicor to be so heavily invested here across so many industries BEFORE they explored investing more of their discretionary funds in other markets outside their own ‘disaster zones’.

    This is simple, practical management sense.

    It is shocking how easily and quickly learned folks who offer themselves as informed and expert offer strong personal critiques against others rather than stating their facts and allowing the debate to be hinged on all the competing facts…

    Amazing!!

  43. Artax Avatar
    Artax

    Bush Tea June 10, 2016 at 8:35 AM #

    “In a sensible world, Sagicor SHOULD HAVE BEEN MAJOR INVESTOR in BS&T, Bartel, BL&P, Banks and in the Hotel industry (given its value to Barbados). These are profitable home markets where they enjoy competitive advantages. As such, they would have been in position to strongly influence governmental and business behaviour – much like Bizzy and Maloney does now for their own ends, BUT, given a culture of professionalism, Sagicor would have been a NEEDED influence towards PROFESSIONAL and ETHICAL practices.”

    @ Bush Tea

    Don’t concern yourself too much about how I and those you implied are of my ilk may think.

    However, I agree with your above comments 100%. Probably the best you’ve written so far for the year. They reminded me of vintage Bush Tea, when you used much less emotional and sentimental rhetoric to state the facts.

    Sagicor’s management should have pursued a course of business operations similar to that of the Goddard’s Group of Companies.

    Investing in BS&T (United Insurance would have obviously benefited), Banks Holdings and the Hotel Industry would have materialized into a broader asset base and an increase in or a maintained level of employment, just to mention two. Banks Holdings, for example, would have benefited from Sagicor’s investments in the 20 other territories.

    However, you will have to blame the mindset of the managers and shareholders.

  44. Lord Nelson Avatar
    Lord Nelson

    No wonder Sagicor moves to Bermuda. Since Bermuda did not opt for “independence”, GDP per capita is now more than 80,000 USD. What should Sagicor expect in Barbados? Politicians buying tons of rum in the supermarket, jumping up and down on festivities, shouting in church and behaving like Wabenzis. That is the other side of the post-colonial world, the world of non-developing countries where politics is about hot air, big promises, lots of excuses and blaiming others for local incompetence.

  45. Pachamama Avatar
    Pachamama

    Too many people, especially Dribbler and Artax, have obviously read a few books but seem unable to really benefit from what for them was to be an education, for example courage.

    Their linear thinking has no particular relevance for our times. But still it is impossible to untether them from their old school books.

    Our world is much more dynamic and is getting more and more complex by the day. For example, we are on the cusp of a global 10 trillion dollar government bond bubble. And some are forecasting a burst.

    These are the futurists, the radical economists. Not the pencil pushers who use old economic rationales even in circumstances where they have limited utility.

    So ‘education’ is used at the service of ‘the community of interests’ and to justify the unjustifiable. As if nobody knows that financialization, as institutional structures, have overthrown economic theory. We hope you understand, but are not confident.

    Where are the connections, AT THE PRIMARY LEVEL, between the Sagicor consistent failures; how financialization has made fools of economists and their antiquated GDP centric models; why the capitalist state is increasingly taking on private roles; and many more fundamental issues that should attract your ‘great minds’.

    Your false textbook reasonings are no longer working! But our guillotine will have to be made to do its work for you to stop hawking it.

  46. David Avatar
    David

    Surely Minister Denis Kellman’s rant on VoB that forced Dowridge Miller to call and rap him on the knuckles was not the reason Sagicor is redomiciling to Bermuda. Why are we worried? The Holding company being redomiciled is non operating and both Barbados and Trinidad have agreed to maintain the resident status of the company. Perhaps the sages on the blog can explain how premium and pension payments will be treated I.e. local or foreign currency.

  47. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ Artax
    What problem exactly do you have with emotion and sentiment? In many relationships, there is a major role for ’emotional and sentimental rhetoric” as you put it.

    Look…
    Back in the old days, many Bajan families were too poor – even with free education, to afford to have all their children in school for 20 years. In many cases, the ‘brightest spark’ was chosen and supported through school by that family all the way to PhD if possible….
    Such support required sacrifices by those who could least afford it in the family.

    Thirty years down the road of life, this ‘bright spark’ becomes a ‘mover and shaker’ in society and suddenly has many ‘options’ open to him for future development.

    How does one discuss, without ’emotional and sentimental rhetoric’, the RESPONSIBILITY of such a son to his family, who, having expended their scarce resources to empower him, now find themselves at his mercy?

    Don’t talk shiite to Bushie about ‘the facts’….. Facts shiite!!

    The ‘FACTS’ are that Sagicor is the pampered son of Barbados.
    The ‘FACTS’ are that, having become fat and rich off their poor family, they are now too proud to associate with their poor kin in the old broken down village home.
    The ‘FACTS’ are that like some other ‘favoured sons’, they now look down on those who made them, they curse them as lazy and useless, and they look to associate with the rich and famous.

    Well Boss, Bushie happens to be such a son…..
    It has been the Bushman’s privilege and honour to see to it ..that his (once poor) supporting family NEVER wanted for anything that Bushie could supply; That the name of that family NEVER comes into disrepute; and that they always KNOW that they have a lifelong INVESTMENT in their ‘bright spark’.

    Lotta shiite!!
    ‘Ungrateful bastards’ best describe those who can, in the name of an extra dollar, turn their backs on their own flesh and blood, without whose support and sacrifice, they would have been nothing.

    How the hell does one avoid ’emotional and sentimental rhetoric’ in describing such traitors?
    Do you think that Bushie would invest in a house in Bermuda to make a 10% profit, before investing in the old family home back in the village where he grew up….even at a loss?

    Do you think that Bushie would sit idly by and watch Emera buy out the family kitchen – so that they can send white people down to kick Bushie’s cousins? …while Bushie have ‘money to burn’ with Lloyds of London?

    This ‘money-based’ approach that seems to make sense to many of us, is exactly what drives things like CAHILL, IONICS, SBRC, Hard rock and even Hard wood. Amazingly, although it has run us into an obvious dead-end, some continue with the approach with a single-mindedness that lends credence to the fact that we are not dealing with flesh and blood, but demonic forces in high places.

  48. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @ David
    The re-domicile in itself is not the issue, it is merely symbolic of Sagicor’s lack of commitment to Barbados. Their dismissive and lacklustre approach to Barbados Farms; their lack of interest in national assets such as Bartel, BS&T, Four Seasons, BL&P, etc is the REAL issue…. while speculating in London and other jurisdictions. Charity begins at home.

    Their ‘successful’ insurance businesses are, like COW and Bizzy’s operations, totally due to the enabling environment created for them in Barbados with decades of tax incentives to buy insurance, mandatory insurance for home mortgages, etc.

    Having made an easy mint, should they not then have invested in meaningful productive areas and brought innovation and change?…. instead of just looking for subsidies and continued ‘easy life’?

    The Dowdridge man speaks with a kind of arrogance that suggests that they seriously EXPECT to continue with their pampered ‘success’ …or they will pull up their stumps and leave….

  49. Pachamama Avatar
    Pachamama

    Don’t worry about Dodridge Miller, he a fly weight.

    A fly weight who thinks he could intimidate people. He once deliberately exposed a gun, holstered around his ankle in a meeting with someone he though was an enemy of those he worshipped.

    Unlike him and most Bajans, some people are not afraid of death. And he was made to understand that.

  50. The Gazer Avatar
    The Gazer

    Above my head, but finding the exchange to be very interesting.
    Liking the BT and PM side of the discussion.
    Is Artax a shortened Artaxerxes?

The blogmaster invites you to join and add value to the discussion.

Trending

Discover more from Barbados Underground

Subscribe now to keep reading and get access to the full archive.

Continue reading