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Jeff Cumberbatch - New Chairman of the FTC
Jeff Cumberbatch – New Chairman of the FTC
BU shares the Jeff Cumberbatch Barbados Advocate column โ€“ Senior Lecturer in law at the University of the West Indies since 1983, a Columnist with the Barbados Advocate [โ€ฆ]
since 2000 and BU commenter โ€“ see full bio.

Musings: A nation under law [I]
9/6/2015
By Jeff Cumberbatch
Two items of news this week, entirely unconnected and in different jurisdictions,

implicated the complex issue of the primacy of the rule of law as opposed to that of personal belief or political expediency in an avowedly democratic society. The first, by far perhaps the more notorious, concerned the matter of Mrs Kim Davis, a county clerk in Kentucky in the US, who has refused to issue marriage licences to same-sex couples on the ground[s] that she should not be compelled to recognise same sex marriage since this does not comport with her religious beliefs. In fact, Mrs Davis, according to the New York Times, is but one of four or five state officials throughout the US who have taken this stance that natural marriage cannot be defined by Government, although she alone has become the poster child of the group.

While the right to personal religious freedom is guaranteed under the US Constitution, as it is under ours, it is difficult to understand the precise nature of Ms Davis objection. In the first place, it is accepted that this right, as are all the others, is not absolute, but rather qualified, in that it may be limited by law to the extent that it is reasonably justifiable to do so in a democratic society.

One such limitation is that these rights may be restricted by the existence of valid law that forbids the particular exercise of the religious practice. Hence, until it is adjudged to be unconstitutional, the members of the Rastafarian religion cannot successfully claim that the consumption of marijuana is a constitutionally guaranteed exercise of their freedom of conscience to manifest and propagate their religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

And while there may be no specific written law that Mrs Davis infringes by refusing to grant the marriage licences, she is clearly failing in her duty to assist her employers, the state and county, to comply with the requirement, because of the relatively recent Supreme Court decision, to issue the licences unless there is some specified justifiable reason not to do so -of which the identical sex of the parties is not one. She thus places them in breach of their constitutional undertaking. Such a flagrant dereliction of duty would, of course, merit immediate dismissal under most employment laws.

Even more puzzling in this context is the reluctance of Mrs Davis to voluntarily resign from her job on religious grounds as commanded by the very tenets of her religion that counsel every believer in 2 Corinthians 6:17 to โ€œcome out from among them and be ye separateยกยญtouch no unclean thing and I will receive youโ€.

There are some jobs that require a religious qualification and there is provision in some jurisdictions for an exception to be made to equal opportunity stipulations in this regard. The Trinidad & Tobago Equal Opportunity Act 2000, for example, permits an employer to discriminate on the ground of religion where being of a particular religion is a necessary qualification for employment. It is not immediately clear that a similar rule may apply to a public office such as that held by Mrs Davis.

The phenomenon of Mrs Davis being jailed for contempt for her actions last week would be abhorred by most Barbadians who, against all evidence, refuse to accept that we do not live in a theocracy but in a secular constitutional polity, no matter the prevailing loosely uttered view that we are a Christian societyยกยญ whatever that phrase might mean.

The reality is accepted that there may be more instances than a few of congruence between Biblical fiat and local law. However, this coincidence must not be mistaken for any prescribed legislative agenda to reproduce Christian teachings, as those laws that confound religious prescription and dogma such as the Status of Children Act, those aspects of the Family Law Act that accord legal validity to the union other than marriage and the Medical Termination of Pregnancy Act, for examples, cogently demonstrate.

Indeed, Mrs Davisโ€™ insistence here, although she appeals to admittedly higher authority, is not substantially different from that of those who claim to be able to ignore a legal proscription because of hunger, a sense of entitlement or simply basic disagreement with its provisions. The tax-evader who sincerely believes that the state authority is expropriating too much of his or her earnings to no ostensibly useful end or the pejoratively titled mule that transports contraband for remuneration in order more effectively to provide for her children also appeals to another ideal. It is at least doubtful, however, whether the ordinary man or woman on the Silver Sands ZR would be prepared to excuse such conduct on either stated ground.

It might be churlish to descend to the level of personality, but there are credible reports that Mrs Davis was thrice divorced before her conversion to Christianity about four years ago. Naturally, according to the teachings of her faith, these multiple contraventions of solemnly given vows should be ignored since she has since been washed clean in the blood of the Lamb and I, for one, have no difficulty with this thesis. She remains entitled to embrace her views and to suffer the consequences of her actions.

There have been some risibly spurious legal arguments offered to rebut the validity of the recent judgment of the Supreme Court. One presidential hopeful last week even asserted in all seriousness that the judgment of the Supreme Court on the interpretation of the Constitution in the recent case was not binding in the absence of enabling legislation by the states. I do not care to deal with these opinions here, given their irrelevance to the local circumstance. Indeed, the entire local same-sex marriage debate is wholly immaterial except in the minds of those who, for one reason or another, seek to categorise even the thought of its local likelihood as the abomination of desolation.

This column was not about that, in youth-speak. It simply sought to reiterate that in a society such as ours, one reputedly governed by the rule of law; there is a price to be paid for its disobedience, however justifiable this might appear to be.

Next week, I propose to deal with the second item; the apparently official perception in the Ministry of Labour that the provisions of the existing Protocol, which govern the terms of the Social Partnership, may at times supersede those of enacted legislation.


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132 responses to “The Jeff Cumberbatch Column – A Nation Under Law [I]”


  1. 2 Corinthians 6:17
    Wherefore come out from among them

    Since they were the temple of the living God, built up an habitation for the Most High; since he resided among them, took his walks in the midst of them, was their God, and they were his people. These words are taken out of ( Isaiah 52:11 ) where the several phrases here used may be observed. They seem to be directed to the Israelites, and particularly to the priests and Levites, who bore the vessels of the Lord; and are fitly applied to believers under the Gospel dispensation, who are by Christ made priests unto God. They are usually interpreted by the Jewish writers, as a call to the Jews to come out of captivity, to quit Babylon and Persia, and the several cities and countries where they were; and are applied in ( Revelation 18:4 ) to mystical Babylon, the church of Rome, as a call to God’s people, to leave the superstitions and idolatries of that church, lest they be partakers of her plagues; and here, by the apostle, as an exhortation to believers in general, to forsake the company and conversation of the men of the world: who may be said to come out from among them at first conversion, when they are called to forsake their own people, and their Father’s house, to leave their native country, and seek an heavenly one; and when, in consequence of effectual calling grace….

    and be ye separate, saith the Lord;

    this phrase is not to be met with expressly in our version of the above text in Isaiah, but is signified by several expressions in it; the words rendered “depart ye, depart ye”, are by the Targum, or Chaldee paraphrase on the place, expressed by (wvrpta wvrpta) , “be ye separate, be ye separate”, which are the very words of the apostle here; and the phrase, “touch no unclean thing”, is explained by R. Aben Ezra, (Mlweh twmwam) (wldbyv) , “that they might be separate from the nations of the world” and another word, (wrbh) , “be ye clean”, signifies such a purgation as is made by separation, by removing the clean from the unclean, by separating the wheat from the chaff. The people of God are a separate people in election, redemption, and the effectual calling, and ought to be so in their conduct and conversation; they ought to separate themselves from all superstition and will worship in religious matters, and from the evil customs and manners of the world, though they are sure to become a prey, and to expose themselves to the CONTEMPT and rage of it: http://www.biblestudytools.com


  2. @ Jeff
    Given the fact (and reality) that laws are generally enacted by a group of clueless jackasses who, through various rational and irrational political processes find themselves elected to office. SURELY there must exists some overriding MORAL basis upon which citizens can stand against blatant brass bowlery.

    Take the shiite tax imposed last year by the Stinkliar, which has subsequently been dropped. Are you then saying that someone who was smart enough to see that such a law was shiite from the get go – should have been made to lose their job, home, and freedom in the meantime? – for being too perceptive?

    The woman is right as shiite.

    Let the bullers and wickers form partnerships /companies/ unions / …whatever…
    Let them share their assets, play with each other’s feces, and whatever else meets their fancy….
    But Marriage was never defined or ordained by any law of man, and it CANNOT be redefined by any set of jackasses…. no matter how many degrees you or Sir Cave hand out….

    So …even if wunna destroy this woman ….she is still right.


  3. It is the law and the correct response the establishment expected was for Davis to resign. She however responded based on her religious belief and in the process exercised her right to civil disobedience. Obviously she must have expected a backlash to her decision. Civil disobedience in man’s history has served a purpose. We live in a secular society, the challenge/tension will always be how are the rights of all groups protected.


  4. Even more puzzling in this context is the reluctance of Mrs Davis to voluntarily resign from her job on religious grounds as commanded by the very tenets of her religion that counsel every believer in 2 Corinthians 6:17 to โ€œcome out from among them and be ye separateยกยญtouch no unclean thing and I will receive youโ€.

    Citing Corinthians as a benchmark whereby Mrs. Davis should voluntarily resigned would be a personnel decision on Mrs, Davis part, However IMHO the passage is not a clear indication that one should physically remove oneself from the circumstance but can give reasonable “thought ” that one can used other avenues other than physical as a way of separation to issue a displeasure /s
    Hence Mrs, Davis retaliation not to issue can be a ” vessel ” use to “separate” herself whereby under religious teachings and principles she can not be an accessory to the rules and laws of govt on this issue.
    In any case does /should “separation” as action be accessed or limited only to a physical transition or trait ?


  5. Hold yuh horses David brake for a while ! take a deep breath ! there are implications and suppositions that need to be fully vetted and ironed out on this issue
    Do not seize upon this moment to rant and rave through emotionalism.
    There are constitutional lawyers who would dig deep enough to find a breach of Mrs Davis constitutional rights ,
    Although it might be difficult hurdles to overcome , but once the legal wheels start turning expectations of the unexpected becomes obvious ,
    Who would have thought that Bill Cosby would be facing legal ramifications after decades of rape allegations now brought years later before the court,


  6. Thanks for your exposition, Zoe, although at the end of it I am still not clear that Ms Davis would not have obeyed the injunction by resigning from a job that would entail one of her duties being the issuance of marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Apart from tasks that may prove an imminent danger to his or her health or a breach of the law, I am not aware that employees have a right to refuse to perform their contractual duties because they feel like it.

    Bush Tea,your point has already been answered in the column. One may not choose with impunity which laws to obey and which to disobey. He or she certainly can do so but must also be prepared to face the sanction. Was Mandela unlawfully imprisoned because of the moral legitimacy of his actions in disobeying the apartheid laws that, incidentally, were based on the dogma of the Dutch Reform Church?

    AC, I do not understand what you are saying in your first posting. Maybe it is too high for me. So far as the second is concerned, search as he or she might, no lawyer will ever find a constitutional right to disobey the law based on one’s personal belief! This is partly what is meant by the RULE OF LAW!


  7. Kim Davis is doing what every Christian magistrate should
    Sep 2, 2015 by Dr. Joel McDurmon

    Kim Davis, the Rowan County, Kentucky clerk who refuses to sign marriage licenses for homosexuals, creates a case full of interesting dilemmas, but she is doing the right thing. I would like to focus on the most important angle, and one which is simply not getting much emphasis in the media. This is a perfect case to highlight the nature of true federalism, the role of the lesser magistrates, and the long road Christians have ahead of them in restoring America.

    We are all familiar with the Obergefell Supreme Court decision in favor of homosexual โ€œmarriage.โ€ We all know Mrs. Davisโ€™ case is fallout from that decision. When I first viewed this on the surface, I thought she would be better off to resign. It seemed to me a little self-serving for her to demand her tax-funded salary while defying the law (like it or not) she professes to represent. Itโ€™s simply contradictory to be a paid representative of the law and yet assert your personal view of the law when you disagree with it.

    But then I realized this is not the case at all. It is only the rule according to the Supreme Courtโ€™s dictatesโ€”the dictates of the federal judiciary. Now that may be the last word for many people, but itโ€™s not all, and the rest is in Mrs. Davisโ€™ favor.

    She explained in her comments through Liberty Counsel: โ€œIt is a matter of religious liberty, which is protected under the First Amendment, the Kentucky Constitution, and in the Kentucky Religious Freedom Restoration Act.โ€ While I might demur on a couple points here, the reference to the Kentucky Constitution is fully relevant indeed. It is central.

    In 2004, the Commonwealth of Kentucky voted overwhelmingly to include a marriage amendment to its Constitution. It now reads in section 233A:

    Only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in Kentucky. A legal status identical or substantially similar to that of marriage for unmarried individuals shall not be valid or recognized.

    Protecting this Constitutional definition from invasion by outside jurisdictions is a more fundamental provision in Section 26:

    To guard against transgression of the high powers which we have delegated, We Declare that every thing in this Bill of Rights is excepted out of the general powers of government, and shall forever remain inviolate; and all laws contrary thereto, or contrary to this Constitution, shall be void.

    While there could certainly be room for legal wrangling here, the basic point is that the Commonwealth must not follow any laws contrary to its Constitution, but rather must consider such laws void. In my reading, this would include laws that are attempted to be imposed by an outside jurisdiction, or even an overlapping jurisdiction.

    Thus, Obergefell is not merely an โ€œoh wellโ€ in a State (or Commonwealth) such as this. It is a genuine Constitutional crisis at the state level. Put simply, this is a matter of Statesโ€™ Rights, and the decision on how to move forward lies entirely in the hands of the people of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, its government, and its lesser magistrates.

    So on second thought, I believe Mrs. Davis is making the appropriate stand. She is an elected representative of her county, and as such, she is to some degree a lesser magistrate. She may be the least of all the lesser magistrates, but that just makes the condemnation of all the inactive or compromised officials above her all the greaterโ€”especially if theyโ€™re professing Christians.

    In fact, from this perspective, Mrs. Davisโ€™ courage stands as an open condemnation of every Christian in local or state offices who does not stand for their State and people in defiance of Obergefell. What a shame it is that across this nation barely a story has arisen like Mrs. Davisโ€™s! Why is she virtually alone in this spotlight? Is there only one or two among us who will risk even this little? Are there really thousandsโ€”tens of thousands?โ€”of Christians in local offices across the Bible Belt and heartland who were outspoken Christians and opponents of same-sex marriage one day, then suddenly wilted the day after Obergefell? Who work to find a way to rationalize their newly-compromised position totally opposite of what they professed one day before? Who attend church and bow the knee to Christ on Sunday, then bow to Sodom on Monday? And for the sake of what? A pension?

    How easily are we as Christians to be bought off, after all?

    But not Mrs. Davis. She wonโ€™t budge. She stands ultimately under the authority of God, and that authority is reflected in the Kentucky Constitution, section 233A. It is protected from outside jurisdictions by the Kentucky Constitution, Section 26, and by the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

    While I would argue that the Tenth Amendment was so far compromised from day one it is of little practical use, the concept of Statesโ€™ Rights and separate jurisdictions is still perfectly valid and applicable in general (See my essays on Statesโ€™ Rights in Restoring America, or here).

    The only question will be, will the people of the Commonwealth of Kentucky stand up and exercise the right they have reserved to themselves in their Constitution? Will the leadership in the Governorโ€™s office and Legislature of Kentucky stand for their Constitution? Will the pulpits stand up and motivate both to do so? They could.

    Whether or not, it is exactly what should happen. The leadership of the Commonwealth of Kentucky ought to stand up for what their Constitution says, because it is right. They should openly defy the overreaching authority of SCOTUS and force a Constitutional crisis.

    After all, the marriage amendment was added in that Commonwealth with an overwhelming 75 percent of the vote. Thatโ€™s not just a victory; thatโ€™s a state-wide mandate.

    Stand for it without compromise! Then the ball is in the Federal governmentโ€™s court. It can issue all the injunctions and stays it likes, but as Andrew Jackson once apocryphally said regarding a SCOTUS ruling he opposed, โ€œJohn Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!โ€

    Will the Federal government impose sanctions on Kentucky? Deny federal funding (please!)? Depose or imprison officials? God forbid, send in troops?

    Because Iโ€™ll bet you that if the lesser magistrates of Kentucky did this, so would others: Texas, Tennessee, North Carolina, Utah. You might see a wave of backbone grow across this countryโ€”and just the possibility of that is worth the stand by one state. And then what would the Feds do? Send in troops to every State and Commonwealth that resisted?

    Should a civil war start over this? Then the Courtโ€™s interpretation and application of the Fourteenth Amendment could die the same way it was born.[1] Or not. Either way, we would at least have a clear and definitive answer of whether we live in a free society responsive to the basic tenets of Christian culture or a military-backed dictatorship of a few Ivy League rogues in robes.

    I donโ€™t advocate a civil war by any means. I donโ€™t advocate individual vigilantism of any sort. But I do support the biblical and Christian doctrine of the lesser magistrate interposing between the godly will of a people and a small group of tyrannical overlords in high places.

    As long as the Commonwealth of Kentucky does not withdraw the stateโ€™s role in issuing marriage licenses altogether (a solution already employed in Alabama), then Kim Davis is doing the right thing. Every Christian in Kentucky ought to support her in doing so, for she is exercising the role of the lesser magistrate. Every other conservative and/or Christian magistrate in the state ought to do the same thing. And every Christian in America ought to support them all as they do. โ€œNo one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.โ€ Dear Christians in government bodies: quit looking back.www.americanvision.org


  8. This new legislation was implemented “during” Mrs. Davis’ employment thereby changing the original terms of her employment.

    Does this have any bearing on her right to not sign the certificates?


  9. In the context given where the article cites “separation’ as means of voluntarism by Mrs. Davis , by religious law . i proffered that separation can be used through other means other than removing one self. Not saying that physically separation is not a correct action but was merely questioning if Mrs, Davis action under religious law could not be seen as a form of separation.
    Legally under govt law her removal would be correct method , but since the article incites religious law i perceive their might be a difference in both interpretations of separation.

    So far as the second is concerned, search as he or she might, no lawyer will ever find a constitutional right to disobey the law based on oneโ€™s personal belief! This is partly what is meant by the RULE OF LAW!

    Not to be contrary

    Then how it was that Cassius Clay Mohammed Ali was able to use personal beliefs based on religious law to avoid the Draft
    There were many lawyers ho argued that the Constitution held firm until the Supreme Court said different,


  10. I wish to address one point as it relates to rastafarianism and the use of marijana in religious practices.

    A Rastafarian cannot claim that the use of marijuana constitutes and integral part of his or her religious observation neither can a Satanist claim that human sacrifice does the same. Because as it stands, the use of marijuana and human-sacrefice are all illegal as far as the criminal code is concerned in Barbados as well as in the United States of America.

    Now as far as religion in concerned in America, it is fact that the Congress which is the legislative arm of government cannot enforce any law with would prohibited the free exercise of religion, but the Congress can enact laws which can affect the Application of religion, and has done so throughout the republic history.

    And furthermore, what has Mrs Davis duty to enforce the constitutional mandate of her office to do with her autonomy of conscience? If there supposed to be a high wall between church and state, and Mrs Davis is acting in the capacity of the state, where does her liberty of conscience comes in to play? Suppose for example: a white person acting in the same capacity as Mrs Davis, refuses to grant marriage licenses to black and white couples because he or she believes that by doing so it violates the laws of nature? Does that person has a right to his or her freedom of conscience in denying white and black couples their marriage licenses?


  11. Hants what about the stewardess who converted to islam and now refuses to serve alcohol,
    with all this good Christian talk going on how many Syrian refugees can we put Barbados down for


  12. Let me make a correction as far as the law and Mrs, Davis refusal to issue the license, After {now) reading what happened and the extent where her decision influenced other employees not to issue the license i believe the contempt cited against her was necessary and legitimate,,However if Mrs Davis action was one of singularity i contend that there is a “grey” area by which she could proceed legally on religious ground .


  13. @Jeff

    Our read of the Davis decision cannot be evaluated in law. The lady has gone with her conscience and perhaps is prepared to accept the consequences.


  14. Now we all can agree on the fact that there are sound and unsound laws enacted by human government from time to time, and apparently Mrs Davis sees the issuing of same sex marriage licenses as such law, but her liberty of conscience does not change the fact that the issue of same sex marriage has been settled by the highest court in the land making it federally mandated law.

    Now intelligent minds must concluded that Mrs Davis was fully aware of the responsibilities of her office, and if she believed that by granting such licenses to same sex couples would have undermined her moral and religious convictions she should have recused herself from such responsibility.


  15. @Jeff, Is this a good legal argument as posited by Dr. Joel McDurmon?

    “We are all familiar with the Obergefell Supreme Court decision in favor of homosexual โ€œmarriage.โ€ We all know Mrs. Davisโ€™ case is fallout from that decision. When I first viewed this on the surface, I thought she would be better off to resign. It seemed to me a little self-serving for her to demand her tax-funded salary while defying the law (like it or not) she professes to represent. Itโ€™s simply contradictory to be a paid representative of the law and yet assert your personal view of the law when you disagree with it.”

    “But then I realized this is not the case at all. It is only the rule according to the Supreme Courtโ€™s dictatesโ€”the dictates of the federal judiciary. Now that may be the last word for many people, but itโ€™s not all, and the rest is in Mrs. Davisโ€™ favor.”

    “She explained in her comments through Liberty Counsel: โ€œIt is a matter of religious liberty, which is protected under the First Amendment, the Kentucky Constitution, and in the Kentucky Religious Freedom Restoration Act.โ€ While I might demur on a couple points here, the reference to the Kentucky Constitution is fully relevant indeed. It is central.”

    “In 2004, the Commonwealth of Kentucky voted overwhelmingly to include a marriage amendment to its Constitution. It now reads in section 233A:”

    “Only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in Kentucky. A legal status identical or substantially similar to that of marriage for unmarried individuals shall not be valid or recognized.”

    “Protecting this Constitutional definition from invasion by outside jurisdictions is a more fundamental provision in Section 26:”

    “To guard against transgression of the high powers which we have delegated, We Declare that every thing in this Bill of Rights is excepted out of the general powers of government, and shall forever remain inviolate; and all laws contrary thereto, or contrary to this Constitution, shall be void.”


  16. I dont agree with gay marriages but I agree with the civil partnerships between gays. I dont mind Ms Davis was divorced thrice. But she lived in fornication and had children with another husband whilst still married to the first. The hypocrite should have recused herself. Just another BIG sin, little sin dilemma. We just LOVE to ignore some aspects of immorality and we just love dwell on others.


  17. Hants@9:00am -There is a general overarching duty on an employee to obey the lawful reasonable orders of his or her employer and a duty to co-operate with the employer to achieve the objectives of the undertaking.

    David@ 9:29 -I am not clear what you intend to say. Of course it is a matter of law: including employment law., constitutional law and the appropriateness of legal sanctionโ€ฆMrs Davis seems resigned to her fate, but not the protestors outside the jail and even some local columnists such as John Blackman in today’s Advocate.

    Zoe@10:57 -Dr Mc Durmon is incorrect. When Kentucky became part of the Union, it agreed to abide by the US Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. The Kentucky Constitution is subordinate to the US Constitution under the doctrine of “the cover the field” test of repugnancy!

    Kevin@11:23 -Insightful!


  18. @Jeff

    For Davis her decision is obviously not guided by law. This is an emotive issue and religious flag bearers will grasp the opportunity to support their religious beliefs win lose or draw. In other words it is a matter of conscious.


  19. David, but if we flout the law of the land because we believe we are held to a higher law of God or Mohammed then where do we stand? Most people thought the US had already fought their civil war to push back on exactly this type of behaviour. Jeff has enunciated the Fed-State rules of engagement to be followed.

    Others using the shield of their God defied the Federal rules and refused to accept that a black person was equal then too. Didn’t many refuse blacks their rights based on these same ‘Christian’ principles?

    As Jeff said whether we like it or not Nelson Mandela was jailed under the ruling law of the land, abhorrent though it was there in SA. Those laws were changed because the majority of the people said they were unjust. Even as a large percentage touted the strong religious principles..as noted above re ‘Dutch Reformed Chursh’

    The lady Ms Davis has every right to her religious views but where do we agree to disagree peacefully and manage our strong views by obeying the majority rule.

    Back a few years ago, the owners of restaurant chain Chik-Fil-A were pilloried and their business scandalized for the stance they took over this gay marriage subject. Frankly, I thought that was their right as a private company and naturally their business operations would be affected based on the public reaction. In some cities they took a major hit and in some areas it was business as usual. That was a private company and they could espouse their views and market their products as they liked as long as they does not break any Federal laws on discrimination.

    Ms. Davis does not have that latitude. She is a public official carrying out a public service for a Government entity. How can she be allowed to fly in the face of public service because of her personal religious view?

    How do you work that?


  20. And too, as long as I don’t scandalize the Queen’s grammar rules.

    Correction: That was a private company and they CAN espouse their views and market their products as they LIKE as long as they DO not break any Federal laws on discrimination.


  21. @Dee Word

    There is no disagreement that the law of the land is what it is. On the flip side we had a 5:4 decision therefore accept there is a dissenting view held by a large minority who will feel compel to act our this view in the land of the free.


  22. Yes David no dispute. The US Supreme court was divided and will continue in this fractured vein for your and my lifetime on all these contentious issues because the selection of the judges will continue in the same highly politicized manner.

    What we must also note re this matter though is that 38 states had passed laws in some way or other approving same-sex unions prior to this ruling. So the majority of the country – Christian views aside – had ‘passed over the rubicon’ on this matter.

    Of course the Affordable Care Act (Obama Care) was 5-4; Bush v Gore was 5-4. And others that have drastically changed the entire fabric of the country.

    Sometimes one may grin broadly and bear it or just completely turn away but when we work for the government that is NOT an option as we have to carry out the law.

    It would be great if that was every gov’t worker’s mantra.


  23. @Dee Word

    Yes it is law but the point stand, there is a large dissenting group who will demonstrate opposition. Bear in mind the court decisions as stated have had large dissenting opinions as well. It is messy.


  24. Firstly let me state i agree with the law based on Human Rights, However the challenges that come with this law that denies a given constitutional right to a separation of Church and state are “real” and one can argue that the state intrude on such a separation when it took away the Right of Church law a law which directs and governs the right for the church to conduct marriages only between a man and a woman
    One can argue all day and night long the Supreme decision as being the law however the varsity of the law impedes! denies and take away one of the tenants of the Constitution given to the Church ‘that of a separation of Church and state.


  25. “It might be churlish to descend to the level of personality, but there are credible reports that Mrs Davis was thrice divorced before her conversion to Christianity about four years ago. Naturally, according to the teachings of her faith, these multiple contraventions of solemnly given vows should be ignored since she has since been washed”

    Invoking Mrs Davis’ marital failings before her religious reincarnation into the debate subtly implying hypocrisy in her current stance is a bit unfair if what I read about Mrs Davis views on the issue is correct. From what I gather, she rightly in my view refused to issue the licenses to the proponents of abnormal sexual behaviour because in her view marriage is a union between a man and a woman and no court can logically change that according to the dictionary recognized universally as the bible of information, facts and explanations. I am sure the dictionary was a compulsory part of your tools of learning when you attended school from primary through tertiary to university. You can repudiate its contents now if you wish but marriage in the dictionary is defined as and I quote even though you already know ” the legal union of a MAN and WOMAN or the legal or religious ceremony that sanctions or formalizes the decision of a man and woman to live as HUSBAND and WIFE or the legal relation of SPOUSES to each other; it defines husband as the MAN of the married pair and wife as a WOMAN joined in marriage to a man as husband ;and SPOUSE IS DEFINED AS ONE’S HUSBAND AND WIFE. MAN is defined in the dictionary as a male human being as distinguished from a woman and woman is defined as a female human being as distinguished from a man. We can’t just wake up one morning and with the stroke of a pen ignore lifelong tenets of learning because we want to accommodate the selfishness of a few. If the justice system wants to make provision for two persons of the same sexual orientation cohabiting together to legally enjoy each others assets in their entirety then the system is free to do so but no legalisation of marriage between the two of them. The world needs more Mrs Davis’ otherwise it wouldn’t be too far off when these fanatics of deviant sexual behaviour start to clamour for the abolition of marriage between man and woman or marriage between man and woman be regarded as something to be ashamed of. Too far east they say is west. Be careful what we support because it is fashionable so to do.


  26. ‘It is messy.”
    Dealing with filth is always messy.


  27. Dear Balance,

    You could have simply said that you agreed with Ms Davis. Your prolix recourse to the dictionary to define marriage where there is a legal issue at stake smacks of “homophobic” desperation, not reason!


  28. Prolix Jeff? lol


  29. @ David,

    I confess. I had to google the word prolix. lol


  30. Hants, so you think that 98% of us didn’t. Oh lawd! That is what you call a ‘proper’ word. Smooth on the tongue yet forceful in its vigor. Like a good wine. Smooth, smooth.

    Artax use a real big word the udder day when talking to Pieces; ‘ses- something’ which was defined as using a ‘lotta big words’. But this word is too sweet and not one to forget. Just proper.

    So I will refrain from being prolix and retire.

    Jeff, thank you for expanding the vocab.

  31. pieceuhderockyeahright Avatar
    pieceuhderockyeahright

    @ Jeff Cumberbatch

    Conscientious Objection to Military Service while guaranteed under the Laws of the United States (and some other countries) presents a somewhat similar circumstance where “one’s employee” requires one to effect a specific action, in that case, go to perform military service, but they decline to do so because of religious or on the basis of conscience.

    How is this lady’s actions any different, notwithstanding her multiple marriages and other non-issues?


  32. I am always embarrassed when I am reminded that I am using a word not in popular usage, The truth is that I am not showing off as it might appear but rather seeking to use a different word each timeโ€ฆa habit from my enthusiasm for cryptic crosswords I guess! @dIW, the word you are trying to recall is “sesquipedalian”…


  33. @PUDRYR.”…while guaranteed under the Laws of the United States (and some other countries)โ€ฆ”

    This serves to distinguish it from Mrs Davis’s action, does it not?


  34. @ Jeff,

    When fellas like you and GP use words that I don’t know, I look them up and consider it an “educational” opportunity.

    Please don’t “dumb down” your vocabulary. We all can use google.


  35. There are people on both sides of the issue who believes that once a law is written by the Court it is written in stone and should not be challenged and all should blindly close their eyes into simply accepting.
    Now for those who find this law as repugnant and are unwilling to abide under a principle of religious doctrine should not be laughed scorned or mocked . there is a moral gap as well as a human characteristic that find this law at odds , the moral gap lies within the core / code and the visibility of marriage which for over the years was fully accepted and seem as right and moral for society , now by the stroke of a pen the code has been chip away but leaves a gaping hole with riveting effects and cries of disenchantment but even far worse is the stinging effect of pain being caused to those who dare challenged the law.
    Yes i do agree with the law but the price one have to pay for challenging the law goes above and beyond the tenants of a constitutional right one of separation of church and state which also includes the right to dissent and freedom of religious expression guaranteed under the constitution.
    i believe on such a binding Mrs Davis can challenged her rights to religious expression


  36. Jeff, correct. Again thank you.

    @Pieces, I am not pretending to answer the query you posed to the Law Professor; this is my layman’s perspective.

    How can Ms. Davis’ situation be similar to that Conscientious Objection which is a guaranteed right? What guaranteed right is she allowed because of her Christian faith that she can ‘delegate’ also to all the other members of her staff to prevent them from issuing the certificate?

    Aren’t rights an individual thing which allows you to act or not act related to you own well-being or as required re your family members of minor age?

    She can step aside and not issue the license but how can she impact the entire county in this way?

    We know the law can be strange and convoluted but this seems rather straight forward on its basic merits.

    Jeff, please advise if the lay view is shewed to inaccuracy.


  37. We are a country of laws is the refrain by those opposed to Davis’ action. This cannot be refuted. Who says a citizen compelled by self reason cannot challenge the law (outside of the Court in first instance) if prepared to suffer the consequences? She will have her day in Court.


  38. That is a point of agreement between us, David@5:22pm. Well stated! Mrs Davis’s view might even prevailโ€ฆas Mandela’s and Gandhi’s did.


  39. Woww what a one hundred and ninety degree turn within (well) a twenty four hour period, if my memory serves me correct i was lead to believed by the learned attorney that no lawyer would find a remedy by which Mrs Davis would prevail no matter how hard or long the journey for resolution
    Surprise such an opinion by the lawyer has been tempered i wonder why?


  40. So Jeff if I am understanding your 5:61 post re “Davisโ€™s view might even prevail…” you accept that there are grounds whether constitutional re the Fed-State jurisdiction or otherwise which could validate David’s remark that “… [this] citizen compelled by self reason [can] challenge the law” and likely be successful?


  41. 5:31 post that should read!


  42. No, dIW, both you and ac totally misunderstand my response. I was agreeing with David that Mrs Davis may challenge the law outside the court (as she is doing) and that her view might even prevail as did Mandela’s where the South African state decided to repeal apartheid or as did Gandhi’s with Indian independence. Who knows, even though I doubt it greatly, Ms Davis might yet be proven right with the repeal of same sex marriage. Currently, she has no legal leg on which to stand!


  43. For clarity let me state that my interpretation of the lawyer comments stems from an overview of all the previous comments made by him. Those in which he found no foundation upon which Mrs Davis actions could formed sufficiently or legally that would activate a court to side with her actions,,, along with his citing of Corinthians as an alternative resolution available to Mrs Davis,
    Secondly, my concern is duly one which takes into consideration a Right of religious expression (given ) to all and along those lines i believe there is a glaring breach of a person constitutional right one to dissolve and disallow whereby MRS davis refusal to issue same sex license becomes the legal bone of contention surrounding a grey area
    One must also realized that the law does not null and void or waived any religious rights that weighs on freedom of religious expression.


  44. AC, I will be patient with you. I do not believe that Mrs Davis has any legal claim to do as she is (or was) doing. She was certainly in contravention of her employment contract, could have run her employers in trouble vicariously by denying the constitutional rights of citizens, and she deserves to be in jail until she purges her contempt of the judge’s order. More over, the individual’s right to religious freedom is not absolute but subject to other rights such as that to obey the law. I trust that you will understand what I am saying and not continue truculently to assert that because I agreed with David, I have somehow changed my mind. I have seen or heard nothing that would make me do so.

  45. Caswell Franklyn Avatar

    The US Supreme Court can be wrong morally but never wrong legally. Whatever they decide is the law, even if it makes no sense. The only way that their decision can be overturned is by Congress passing a law to nullify their interpretation of the law. And I don’t see that happening because the gay and lesbian lobby is too powerful.

    By the way, thanks Jeff for the word prolix: I always learn something from you.


  46. Jeff, I appreciate your clarification re “Mrs Davisโ€™s view might even prevailโ€ฆas Mandelaโ€™s and Gandhiโ€™s did.”

    What caused my original concern was that I did not see Mrs. Davis’ view or a similarly argued case likely back to the Supreme Court for a while and thus there was no way that her views could prevail nationally (a la Mandela or Gandhi). Her state remains in the minority as you know.

    I was confused by your comments, therefore.

    But maybe her state could lodge a case and fly in the face of established law as some vocal proponents are suggesting and she could ‘prevail’ that way.

    We shall see.


  47. Classic case of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego….

    The king comes up with some shiite law which contradicts the basic laws of BBE ..and of course 98% of the sheep and brass bowls fall predictably into line.

    Given what we all know about laws, lawyers and the people who enact legislation, it is indeed amazing that intelligent people could speak with finality about such an idiotic law that seeks to redefine one of the basic and fundamental pillars of nature.

    That marriage is a contract between a man and a woman was NOT ordained by any man…
    No brass bowl man can redefine one of the spiritual laws of BBE….. NONE!!!

    That it now takes a woman to stand in the shoes of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego speaks volume to the lack of REAL men in this world ….and to our hopelessness…

    BTW…. The USA will pay DEARLY for this idiocy …and much sooner than any of wunna may be thinking….
    Bushie only has a little shiite whacker; ..this level of brass bowlery that challenges SPIRITUAL LAWS will attract unprecedented and supernatural whacking in response….

    …but wunna can always hope that Bushie is wrong…. LOL ha ha ha

  48. Caswell Franklyn Avatar

    Bushie

    I don’t know what this fuss is all about. Personally, I would support same sex marriage when one of those guys gets his husband pregnant.

    >


  49. Apparently the lawyer did not read my comment where i stated that the judges orders were legitimate and justifiable in regards to her duties as an employee , the other issues are legitimate and the courts will decide, BTW there are over seventeen states which are following suit against issuing marriage license seems as if the Supreme court did not have the last word on this issue

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