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Submitted by Terence Blackett

Charles Darwin

โ€œIn the beginning God created the heaven and the earth โ€“ Gen. 1:1

Who holds the โ€œpatentโ€ on the things we see all around us in nature? How do we explain that it takes an estimated 100,000 different proteins to construct a human being? Is that the product of accident, chance or randomization โ€“ or does it spell Intelligent Design? For many, the origin of how life emerged remains one of the great unsolved mysteries and conundrums for both ancient and modern science.

It is recognized that the subject of this current piece is beyond the gamut of unlimited word count to do it any serious scholarship โ€“ however as this is a galvanizing issue and feelings run deep on both sides of the divide, we will attempt to do some form of interim justice given our lack of brevity. For although questions regarding the genesis of life remain a talking-point even within the realm of philosophy – religion (understandably) dominates this platform; yet science continues to hold its own in keeping the debate alive.

So how can concepts like โ€˜abiogenesisโ€™, โ€˜exogenesisโ€™, โ€˜quantum mechanicsโ€™ and โ€˜stellar nucleosynthesisโ€™ assist us in making sense of our primordial quest for understanding?

Let us begin in 1870 where Thomas Huxley opined that “I shall call theโ€ฆdoctrine that living matter may be produced by not living matter, the hypothesis of abiogenesis…” This was a paleoanthropological echo from a not too distant past when Charles Darwin had chained himself to the Tower of Babel in defense that there was no GOD* and in turn hatched a lurid tales of spontaneous regeneration of biological organisms which metamorphosed over billions of years to eventual form all living things including man.

In 1924, Russian biochemist Alexander Oparin also proposed that living cells arose gradually from nonliving matter through a sequence of chemical reactions. This โ€œWarm Soupโ€ theory by evolutionary scientists suggest that according to Oparin, โ€œgases present in the atmosphere of primitive earth, when induced by lightening or other sources of energy, would react to form simple organic compounds. These compounds would subsequently self-assemble into increasingly complex molecules such as proteins. These, in turn, would organize themselves into living cells.โ€

So abiogenesis โ€“ is that field of science dedicated to studying how life might have arisen for the first time on planet earth as some form of primordial protoplasmic globule โ€“ a basis that is challenged by the proponents of exogenesis; both concepts in one way or another debunked by quantum mechanics and stellar nucleosynthesis propping up the Big Bang theory and the evolution of life forms.

Huxleyโ€™s echo continues to reverberate even today as we witness the power of pseudo-indoctrination and its effects upon the human mind. โ€œI had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics, he is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantageous to themselves… For myself, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political.โ€ A. Huxley (evolutionist, leftist, and grandson of T.H. Huxley, known as “Darwin’s bulldog”): Ends and Means, p. 270.

Therefore, if abiogenesis posits this idea of life emerging from virtually nothing, it is clear to see why men fail to believe in the existential nature of a Creator GOD* and that as the Designer โ€“ He made all things according to His will and commands. Huxley, like many, have landed in a quagmire of meaningless; a soup-bowl of void and nothingness โ€“ to find themselves vacuous, empty and alone in the universe.

Let us now examine the theory of exogenesis or panspermia (mutually interchangeable terminologies with slight variants at times) as it is referred to in some circles. Exogenesis is a hypothesis that originated in the 19th century in opposition to the theory of spontaneous generation. The physics of the universe describes exogenesis as an alternative to earthly abiogenesis hypothesizing that “primitive life may have originally formed extraterrestrially, either in space or on a nearby planet such as Mars. Such ideas have had many eminent supporters over the years, including Francis Crick, the co-discoverer of the structure of the DNA molecule, and the astrophysicist Sir Fred Hoyle among others. These theories may go some way to explaining the presence of life on Earth so soon after the planet had cooled down, with apparently very little time for prebiotic evolution.”

But there’s a problem here!

If the โ€œseedsโ€ of life already existed somewhere in the universe or from some nearby or distant galaxy, and that life on earth may have originated through some form of scattered “star-dust” (symbolic of the same way a farmer scatters seed into the wind to sow crops) – then life on our planet was the indirect result of cosmic geoponics involving interdependent cross-colonization and cross-fertilization from nearby worlds. Therefore it would be safe to conclude that there is a reverse process as well โ€“ though no scientific proof exists anywhere.

At the molecular level, life as we know it requires the elements hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, phosphorus and sulphur to exist at sufficient densities and temperatures for the chemical reactions between them to occur. These conditions however are not widespread in the universe, so this limits the distribution or scattering of life as an ongoing process damaging the environment for life, as it would be exposed to radiation, cosmic rays, stellar winds and other rogue cosmologies.

Clearly, exogenesis lacks creditability or validity barring a few who would choose to believe that life on earth was the direct result of extraterrestrial phenomena – something Hollywood is keen to exploit in order to engage weak, flaccid and debilitated minds who believe that the concept of a Creator is too simplistic a notion to be given any credence – which brings us to the least understood topic of quantum mechanics and how it can explain (if at all) the origins of life.

Bioastronomy and astrophysics have been in a race to build a quantum computer with the ability to process massive informational data resources inconceivable to the human mind โ€“ given the premise that life as defined by information processing and replicating systems could prove that the abovementioned theories of abiogenesis and exogenesis were merely random concoctions of a primordial chemical soup mix.

While some argue that quantum theory deals with the structure and behaviour of atoms and molecules and it really has absolutely nothing to do with the mythology of abiogenesis or exogenesis as a matter of fact โ€“ yet quantum mechanics does provide (in theory) the building blocks of biochemistry and therefore provides the relative forces including the coherence, entanglement and superposition constituents which allow non-living matter to make up living matter. The plausibility of this speculative assertion rests, however, on life somehow circumventing the decoherence effects of environmental phenomena.

To simplify – Paul Davies suggests for decoherence to be avoided: “In the presence of environmental noise, the delicate phase relationships that characterize quantum effects get scrambled, turning pure quantum states into mixtures and in effect marking a transition from quantum to classical behaviour. Only so long as decoherence can be kept at bay will explicitly quantum effects persist.” But based on this process of randomization โ€“ how plausible is it to keep the fluidity of environmental noise at bay? This is the conundrum!

So to posit with any degree of certainty that the effects of quantum mechanics will play a significant or decisive role in managing the proprietary blends of either abiogenesis or exogenesis would be the subject of an advanced research project.

However, to bring home the disparity that exist within quantum mechanics and the origins of life can be cited from theoretical physicist Paul Davies who argues that “the transition from non-life to life was a quantum-mediated process, and that the earliest form of life involved nontrivial quantum mechanical aspects.” However, J. D. Sinclair argues that based on the Copenhagen Interpretation that “the first question is the indeterminacy of matter while in an unobserved state. This indeterminacy seems to agree very well with a Hindu worldview. Hindus believe the world observed through our senses is an illusion, and the actual reality (the universe) is itself God. One can argue that indeterminacy proves that nature is an illusion after all. It also seems to show that there can be no reality outside the universe, hence God is the universe or there is no God.”

Davies believe that โ€œthe field of molecular biology posed interesting scenarios according to Schrodinger (1944) where the stable transmission of genetic information from generation to generation in discrete bits implied a quantum mechanical process, although he was unaware of the role of or the specifics of genetic encoding. But could quantum mechanics solve the issue of the living state of matter? Or did the quantum mechanical process play a key role in the emergence of life up to a predetermined level, and subsequently ceased to be a significant factor when life became fully emergent?โ€

These are the issues which science is still trying to answer!

The final aspect of our narrative termed stellar nucleosynthesis deals with this concept some call the โ€œBIG BANGโ€ where some proponents believe that many of the plagues which were experienced in the last millennia was due to this theory.

Science explains stellar nucleosynthesis as the collective term for the nuclear reactions taking place in stars to build the nuclei of the elements heavier than hydrogen. Small quantity of these reactions also occurs on the stellar surface under various circumstances. For the creation of elements during the explosion of a star, the term supernova nucleosynthesis is used. So for BIG-BANG* theorists like Chris Halsall this phenomenon is a crucial determinant in their orthodoxy to prove that this is how life originated.

A quantum leap back into the past to the year 1348 – Europe has fallen under the shadow of the Black Death. The Black Death sweeps through Europe between 1348 to 1353 and is thought to have killed one-third of London’s citizens. Many believe that this was the prophesied time of the [7] last plagues of Revelation 15:5, โ€œas the plague decimates all in its path, fear and superstition are rife.โ€

These were the cinematographic portrayals and projections from the 2010 box office movie release aptly entitled โ€œThe Black Deathโ€. Hollywoodโ€™s fascination with dark, sinister themes throws us back to a bygone era in time where myths, legends and folklore ruled the day. The Biblical idea of plagues as is termed in Revelation 8:10-11 where it says: “And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter” is a prophecy of damnable proportions which cannot be easily deconstructed using scientific jargon.

But today, the objectification of that kind of medieval primordiality is coined in the words โ€œconspiracy theoryโ€, โ€œdoomsday propheciesโ€ and neomythology โ€“ theories that tend to either excite, scare or irate most who are moved by them either in one way or another.

However, the line between Hollywood fiction and what is real has been so blurred and it is difficult to tell who is really writing the historical script โ€“ both past and present.

A recent study by a team of paleo-archeologists, osteologists and others from universities in Canada and Germany unearthed surviving fragments of DNA in bones and teeth of 2,400 victims of the Black Death who were buried at a special cemetery a few metres from the Tower of London, providing samples for a ground-breaking research study.

The research indicated that the yersina pestis microbe (the infectious agent) was not present on the British mainland prior the Black Death, which suggest it reached Britain from elsewhere. But how did it get here? What were its origins?

A Roman Catholic nun in Italy, Sister Mariaelena Bianchessi draws on theories presented by Dr. Fred Hoyle and Dr. Chandra Wickramasinghe, both known for their belief that influenza outbreaks are caused by newly arriving viruses from outer space in a recently published a research paper. If this can be proved under vigorous examination โ€“ then it goes quite some distance in proving the inerrant accuracy of the Bible. The other aspects of this theory can be explored in greater details at publication.

Finally, in conclusion, we can wrap up our theoretical sketch by skimming the surface of the creationist debate to see how they juxtapose with the other theories.

In our world currently, many religious fundamentalists believe that the earth and everything on it was created a six [24] hour days, [6000] years ago while evolutionary scientists, atheists and others believe that a Creator GOD* is a myth and as Professor Hawking lamented earlier this year that โ€œHeavenโ€ โ€˜is a place reserved for people who are afraid of the darkโ€™. Musketeers like Hawking, Dawkins & Co; believe the Bible is a book filled with mythology; life is the product of randomization; most importantly, life is the product of undirected events. What is lost in the argument is that theoretical scientists look at the designs in nature and copy products and technologies which have been very beneficial to mankind โ€“ however they fail miserably in answering with any intellectual honesty the question that says – โ€œif the copy required a designer, what about the ORIGINAL?โ€

Evolutionary science hinges on [3] basic myths: Mutations provide the raw materials needed to create new species; Natural selection led to the creation of new species; and fossil records document macroevolutionary changes. However, like Christianity, to a lesser extent, belief in evolution requires a serious act of faith. But as evolutionist Richard Lewontin states, โ€œMany scientist refuse even to consider the possibility of an intelligent Designer because we cannot allow a Divine foot in the door.โ€


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  1. why are you so obsessed about evil telling people how to act when you are such a dickhead and a preaching hypocritical patronizing jerk (yes its you, I’m talking to)


  2. @Kiki,

    Man to man is so unjust…..

  3. BSC Ecology with Earth Sciences Avatar
    BSC Ecology with Earth Sciences

    “What have you been smoking today. Where are you getting this recent evidence of evolution from.”

    “Another thing I see you getting mixed up with evolution and ADAPTATION.”

    *Sigh* I have explained evolution already giving examples. Clearly you are trolling me since you obviously have a vast background on the terminology. The thing is… even if you had taken the time out for a quick google search you would quickly see that you are the one being confused in the matter at hand. That would take five minutes tops.

    “The only true thing you have correctly said is that evolution and creation cannot occur together.”

    I certainly don’t remember saying this. Rather I stated;

    “If creation was true, evolution as I discussed it could co exist.”

    This shows a lack of the ability to read and comprehend clearly and for large portion of this discussion you have attributed things I have not said to me. I do not appreciate it! Have a good night in any case.

  4. BSC Ecology with Earth Sciences Avatar
    BSC Ecology with Earth Sciences

    Zoe

    I think the problem that you are addressing is that you expect to see species A -> B -> C but evolution is not a rapid process such as you would see a dinosaur in one strata and a winged reptile in the one above very often. It is a very gradual movement with small changes in the fossil record until a certain form(s) is obtained.

    “And this simply CANNOT happen by RANDOM chance MUTATION, NO WAY!”

    Actually this is a big part of how evolution works and how new alleles arrive in the gene pool. You might want to research what mutations are and how they occur before you continue down this road. Like I said earlier it may be hard to understand if you do not have some knowledge in the subject. For example why do we not look like our parents when we get our genes from them and how is DNA read and replicated and what are the products of the transcription and translation of DNA? If you cannot answer these questions you certainly do not want to make statements like you did above.

    By the way; nothing you posted gives solid evidence of a higher deity but just your assumption that this is so based on no hard facts. Even if you argue that evolutionists have no hard facts there are none likewise to support religion and it puts us in a bit of stump. I also gave you an example of transitional subspecies before using ring speciation. I would like your comments on it.


  5. Further, here are a few more significant facts to consider.

    “There is NO CODE* in the lizard for it to grow feathers. They don’t have it NOW, they NEVER did have it, and they NEVER will, unless some Intelligent Agent, sticks it in there from a bird. Some atheists/evolutionists have suggested that lizard scales mutated into feathers. But such mutations are NOT possuble. Why?”

    Because, “Every structure or organ MUST be represented by INFORMATION* at the genetic level, written in a CHEMICAL alphabet on the long molecule DNA. Clearly, the INFORMATION required to CODE* the conctruction of a FEATHER is of a substantially different order from that required for a lizard’s scale. For scales to have EVOLVED into feathers, means that a significant amount of GENETIC* INFORMATION* had to arise in the birds DNA, which was NOT present in that of its alleged reptile
    ancestor.”

    “Do you think it is by some RANDOM mutation that birds came into existence? With their feathers, avian lungs, special muscles and tendons
    and bones? It is a mathematical absurdity.”

    “Just take their lungs! Drastic changes are needed to turn a reptile lung into a bird lung. In the lungs of humans and mammals, the air is drawn into tiny sacs ( alveoli) where blood extracts the oxygen and releases carbon dioxide. The stale air is then breathed out the same way it came in. Reptiles have the same bellows system, but their lungs are septate [ which means it is like one big alveolus divided by centrally directed ingrowths called septa coming from walls]. The gas exchange occurs mostly on the septa. Birds also have septate lungs, BUT their breathing is much more COMPLEX. But birds, in addition to their lungs, have a COMPLICATED system of air sacs in their bodies, even involving the hollow bones. This system keeps air flowing in one direction through special tubes ( parabronchi, singular parabronchus) in the lung, and blood moves through the lung’s blood vessels in the opposite direction for efficient oxygen
    uptake, this IS* an AWESOME engineering DESIGN.”

    “How would the bellows-style lungs of reptiles evolve gradually into avian lungs? The hypothetical intermediate stages could NOT conceivably FUNCTION properly, meaning the POOR ANIMAL would be unable to breath. So natural selection would work to preserve the existing
    arrangement, by eliminating and MISFIT* intermediates. Conclusion?
    Lizards CANNOT* become birds.”

    THINK: “Do you know how silly it sounds for someone to think that a CHICKEN is a dinosaur or a crocodile? Yet that is what evolutionists tell us.”

    “Some evolutionists will tell us that birds and dinosaurs have some common traits. BUT, all vertebrae creatures have some similarities. Have you ever thought that maybe the REASON that animals share some similarities IS* because they came from a COMMON DESIGNER, rather than a common ancestor.”

    We understand this in man’s automotive industry, as an example, take Honda, we have the Honda Civic, and the Honda Accord, two distinct models, made by the same manufacturer, DESIGNED by the same engineers, yet, it would be stupid to say, that the Accord evolved INTO the Civic, because they both have similar machanical features, they BOTH came from the same common DESIGNER, hence similar features, but are DISTINCTLY different models!

  6. BSC Ecology with Earth Sciences Avatar
    BSC Ecology with Earth Sciences

    I must respectfully point you to my previous post again.

    A good book that you can use to answer many of the questions you are asking would be “Principles of Genetics” by Snustad although any genetics book would suffice. Also since you seem to have thing for animals you can also see “Animal Diversity” or “Integrated Principles of Zoology” by Hickman et al.

    And I must point out again that nothing you post gives us hard evidence of a higher deity. Instead of trying to discredit bit by bit you should be dropping concrete proof on us so we would have no choice but to acknowledge the presence of God.

  7. BSC Ecology with Earth Science Avatar
    BSC Ecology with Earth Science

    Anyway my goal in this comment thread was to explain evolution giving examples and then I went on further to describe some elements of geology giving examples all the way. I know some won’t be able to give any examples for their explanations (not shocking why it is so). I hoped I helped increase the understanding of some but I have to leave for now. I would still like you to look at my example of subspecies of gull and answer if these would not be in fact transitional stages Zoe and remember that evolution is not abrupt unless there is some catastrophic event which would allow for genetic drift and even then it can only go as fast as new generations are produced.


  8. Bsc, You say, “…but evolution is not a rapid process such as you would see a dinosaur in one starta, and a winged reptile in one above, very often.”

    Why not? As this IS most certainly what would be expected IF* evolution were true, As MILLIONS of years would have been required for their origin by evolutionary processes. Therefore, BILLIONS times BILLIONS of their fissils, lie entombed in rocks, all over the world. If evolution is true, the rocks should contain BILLIONS of fossils of ancestors of not only COMPLEX invertebates, but right up to dinosaurs, and beyond, would naturally, and logically be THERE. Yer, NOT ONE has ever been found. It is simply impossible, irrational, unscientific, to have MILLIONS of years of evolution, without leaving a TRACE of fossilized EVIDENCE, throughout the AMAZING range of Creatures, Literally IMPOSSIBLE!!!

    This is where Evo Mat, becomes intellecually bankrupt, through its blatant, inept, self referrentially incoherent nonsense, self-inflicted suicide!

    The EVIDENCE, for special Creation, that “So God CREATED great sea creatures and EVERY living thing that MOVES, with which the waters ABOUNDED, according to THEIR KIND* (species) and EVERY winged bird according to ITS KIND * (species)….” Genesis 1:21, Emphasis added, IS* overwhelmingly supported, AND confirmed by the FOSSIL RECORD* over and over again, as there IS* NO* intermediate, transitional, HALF WING, and HALF of another ANYTHING, ever found, and it will remain so, as evolution just did NOT happen!!!

    The INCREDIBLE, vastly, and absolutely AMAZING DENSITY* of complex specified INFORMATION, KNOWLEDGE* contained in DNA, giving cells INSTRUCTIONS, in order to BUILD, these Created Creatures, could NOT* have happened WITHOUT* an Intelligent Designed, exactly as recorded by God, in His Word, the Bible, as found in the Book of Genesis, meaning, ‘In the beginning…..God…..” Created ALL things.

    THINK, Bsc, THINK, and come out of that intellectually barren, evolutionary mind-set, that has you held hostage, to fables, fabrications, and imaginary folly!


  9. to Lemuel;

    my previous 2 posts are factual not opinion i.e Barbados is rising due to tectonic action and volcanic eruptions have been observed/filmed causing the formation of islands. I have made NO comment on this thread about evolution or God or religion or organs/parts of the human body. As to where I get my information from: it was attained during some years of examined study at a university globally acknowledged as a leader in the particular field.

    Further on the claim that given the rate of erosion and the presence of mountain ranges then the earth has to be younger than the 4.5 billion years that the geological community asserts, I have only heard this in creationist circles. Within the scientific community that I have been exposed to, the consensus is that the rate of buildup (of land) as a result of volcanism, delta and continental shelf buildup, and uplift at convergent plate boundaries is roughly equal to, and in some cases exceeding, the erosion rate.


  10. @BSC Ecology with Earth Science

    “Another thing I see you getting mixed up with evolution and ADAPTATION.”

    When I saw that one from Lemuel, I had a hearty laugh. He not only lacks the understanding but misses the point totally. Maybe we can give him a 1% credit. Would it be true to say that constant adaptation (unit step) is key to the process of evolution? Is this not why evolution takes so many years?

  11. BSC Ecology with Earth Sciences Avatar
    BSC Ecology with Earth Sciences

    Zoe you are getting a bit personal in your replies and studiously ignored the questions given to you.

    No one says the fossil record is perfect and we obviosly can not overturn the ground every at once to find all of the fossils at once.

    I would like to say that according to the bible there was nothing but god until he created the earth. By your logic God is surely complex with the abilty to conjure up material out of thin but there is no record of how he came to be; no transition of any kind. Surely this must be the work of a creator; lets call him God squared! As I said before you bring no evidence to the table but point out the fossil record is not perfect and we all know this. How ever the God record seems to be in an even worst state.

    Man has always attributed things he does not understand to dieties e.g.Thunder being a manifestation of wrath and anger or their god for some. You yourself jump tp the conclusion of a God without any evidence.

    At this point I would like to invite you to think and rid yourself of youf intellectually barren religous mindset to reword what you said

    You have no proof of god, never have seen him and would probably being worshiping something else if you were born in certain regions. You base your faith on a book which has some contradictions and talks of a jealous god and a merciful god. I though jealousy was a sin and surely someone with mercy would not have a hell burning fetish. Are you sure you are in the right denomination? Or maybe we all should be jews since Jesus was their king. Obviously the Earth is not as young as the Bible would have you think and man must have “evolved” to have shorter life spans compared to those of some given. Did abel and cain have children with animals? Where did their wives come from and did their children sleep among themselves?

    I am on my cellular so sorry for any typos.

  12. BSC Ecology with Earth Sciences Avatar
    BSC Ecology with Earth Sciences

    Yes we can ROK


  13. To Bsc:
    I have been conferring with evolutionists only some of them are:David Deamer, Barbara Forrest, James Hof man,Kenneth Miller, Eugene Scott and Kevin Padian. They all said that evolution is a theory; that is it is the attempt to explain a large body of facts about the development of this earth. That include animals, plants man etc.. They said they evolutionary scientist are trying to understand evolution and that there are areas of disagreement among them. They said that God could not be a serious designer because the eyes are badly made; the mouth is too small for our teeth etc..; they said that creationist should adopt the scientific method to explain their approach to creation; they said that if the creationists are allowed to take over politically in the US then that country shall become like the state of Iran a theocracy; they said that it is obvious that because we seem to share anatomical structures similar to the apes that we are from the apes, human; they also make the same mistake as Straight talk’s video where the presenter only looked at physical characteristics of apes; they said that the theory of evolution is not about the origin of life, that is left to the study abiogenesis; they agreed that life seems to come from life; to explain some evolutionary things at the biological level they said that everything had to be simple at that time; this is because the complex cells that currently exist does not allow for the movement of all the mechanism to evolve to more complex organisms; the person who most charged with that approach was Dr. Szostak of Harvard Medical School.

    What is very laughable about my foray into the belly of evolutionary thought is that they do not sound like the logical people who should be bent on finding observations and moving onto theories to “help” ordinary people get rid once and for all of these creationists pests. If all of this modern thought and improvement that is all they can come up with, I now see why you are so misguided. I love how they have gotten away from explaining the origins of life, which was Darwin’s original intent, to heave it over to the abiogenesists. What I can conclude, as a thinking man, is that given this crowd I would rather believe in noting for it would make more sense than this current evolutionary thought.


  14. You can take a horse to the water, but cannot make him drink.

    You can take a scientist, Atheist, Agnostic, et al to the FACTS and EVIDENCE* but you CANNOT make him THINK!

    It’s like believing that somehow 200 million pieces of a 747 Jumbo Jet, all mixed up in a huge basket, just, over long periods of time, all came together, bit by bit, fell into place, and EVOLUTION, BOOM, the jet is ready to fly.

    But, waite a minute, in order for the Lizard to grow feathers, taking LONG periods of evolutionary process, very slow adaptation, step by step, with incredibly vast amounts of INFORMATION required to PUT this unbelievable FLIGHT creature together, DNA, and, remembering always, that in order for FLIGHT of this creature, to happen, EACH and EVERY functional aspect of this ‘transition’ would have to HAD occur exactly, TOGETHER, and INSTANTLY, in order to FLY, as a PART Lizard and part BIRD, cannot fly, its like imagining a 747 Jet, attempting to take OFF, with only half a WING, part of one engine assembled, a piece of landing gear, DISASTER, and the incredible creature of a Lizard, far more COMPLEX than any 747 Jet, is attaing this, through RANDOM selection, piece by piece mutation, NO intelligent Design agent, just CHANCE, RANDOM CHANCE, for any person to believe this UTTER HOGWASH* is tantamount to believing the Moon is made of Green Cheeze, and that BOVINE EXCREMENT, will eventually TALK, and FLY as well!!!

    No wonder, then, that God’s Word, the Bible, declares such FUTILE, empty minded thinkers, Evolutionists, Atheists, Agnostics, et all, as FOOLS, who have WILFULLY CHOOSEN* to believe a LIE*

    What an abased insult to our God given intelligence, and utter contempt FOR the overwhelming EVIDENCE in HIS* Created Order, of ALL things, replete IN* His Fossil Record, which speak LOUDLY, in its eloquent silence, as you see, and FIND us, we were/are ALL FULLY FORMED* no transitional, or intermediate fosslis, will EVER be found, as we ALL, were Created in the first place, by Almighty God!


  15. God didn’t give man intelligence, he had no intention of doing such a thing. It was given to man by woman after she was coerced to pick the fruit from the tree of understanding by the same serpent he created. How else would he have known he was naked?
    At least that’s how the story went.
    ๐Ÿ˜‰

  16. BSC Ecology with Earth Science Avatar
    BSC Ecology with Earth Science

    “now see why you are so misguided.”

    From all of your previous posts it should appear for anyone reading through this comment thread that you are more misguided than me. Especially when you attributed me to saying things I did not which shows that you could not have read my posts fully and therefore would not be in the position to call me misguided or not.

    I will like to point out again that i respect your views. A major reason christian are ignored are for reasons like the sentence i quoted. If we do not immediately see it your way we are misguided and involved in imaginary follies and people just get turned off. This is suppose to be a discussion there is no need for this.

    Zoe you are still ignoring my questions and I would post for the umpteenth time you do not bring any evidence. Let me go through this again.

    Supposedly there were some people in my family lineage that believed in a linear order of Gods; one having creating the other and they wrote a book about it centuries ago. This book was passed on through my family and eventually onto me. I would like to say that according to the bible there was nothing but God until he created the Earth. By your logic God is surely complex with the ability to conjure up material out of thin but there is no record of how he came to be; no transition of any kind. Surely this must be the work of a creator; lets call him God squared! But then I have to wonder how God squared came to be? Surely he must be more complex than the regular god. I know! he must have been created by the cubic God. I can go through N amounts of Gods where N = the amount of Gods I need to create until you get my point. You bring no proof of a God and most of your discredits to other topics can likewise be attributed to religion putting us in a bit of a stump. You have no evidence of who wrote the Bible, no evidence of what really happened and you based your faith on what was thought to you and on a ancient book that you are unsure of the origins. This is the point I would like to make. Can you truly know what happened those so many years ago? I think not and this makes statement such as:

    “This is where Evo Mat, becomes intellecually bankrupt, through its blatant, inept, self referrentially incoherent nonsense, self-inflicted suicide!”

    and

    “THINK, and come out of that intellectually barren, evolutionary mind-set, that has you held hostage, to fables, fabrications, and imaginary folly!”

    horribly ironic and extremely rude because you yourself are not thinking. Indeed a book and word of mouth are thinking for you. You have yet to answers the questions I posted for you and I would think you would shudder to read the books I suggested that may give you a greater insight on the scientific side of the story. Surely you must know that you have to known both sides of the argument to prove a point. It is truly sad when you have to result to insulting rather than discuss.

    “No wonder, then, that Godโ€™s Word, the Bible, declares such FUTILE, empty minded thinkers, Evolutionists, Atheists, Agnostics, et all, as FOOLS”

    I don’t think there were any evolutionists in the time of the Bible but infact you are calling people empty minded and fools and not the Bible. Yet you refuse to think about the points posted towards you but continue to tell us to think. I asked you some questions about Genes and Genetics to see you back ground in it. I gave an example of transitional species. You have yet to reply to any. If you continue to verbally abuse those who do not have your same train of thought surely you will not get any new believers. For the most part I can see “* stupse* dis man can be fuh real, he coming out here to dis we?” being said before you are ignored and that is one of the reasons the church as a whole is losing people. Please notice that I have never alluded to you being a “fool”, “slow”, “intellecually bankrupt” or the like to make a point. It is simply not needed.


  17. To Bsc:
    Those fellows and girls that I paraphrase all have a Phd. Those words have nothing to do with you or your posts; these are the people who you follow. If they are misguided, then you the student is also misguided. As far as I am aware, you are only a Bsc in this matter; they are the experts.


  18. Better to listen to the reasoned arguments of a BSc Ecology than the deranged rantings of a bigot expounding her BS in Zoeology.

  19. BSC Ecology with Earth Science Avatar
    BSC Ecology with Earth Science

    “Those fellows and girls that I paraphrase all have a Phd. Those words have nothing to do with you or your posts; these are the people who you follow. If they are misguided, then you the student is also misguided. As far as I am aware, you are only a Bsc in this matter; they are the experts.”

    Do I follow them? I don’t even know who they are?

    “where the presenter only looked at physical characteristics of apes”

    Physical evidence is only a part of that. Behaviour and genetics are also used, especially genetics as the human chimpanzee genomes have been compared, please do your research carefully. Certain information may have only presented in that way because some people like yourself may not be able to understand the more complex aspects. Get ahold of the full papers and read the full data please. It can’t be that hard to do a simple Google scholar search to find information on the methodology.

    “What is very laughable about my foray into the belly of evolutionary thought is that they do not sound like the logical people who should be bent on finding observations and moving onto theories to โ€œhelpโ€ ordinary people get rid once and for all of these creationists pests. If all of this modern thought and improvement that is all they can come up with, I now see why you are so misguided. I love how they have gotten away from explaining the origins of life, which was Darwinโ€™s original intent, to heave it over to the abiogenesists. What I can conclude, as a thinking man, is that given this crowd I would rather believe in noting for it would make more sense than this current evolutionary thought.”

    Then you better believe in nothing because this argument can be easily switched around against religion by substituting words.It now becomes;

    “What is very laughable about my foray into the belly of religious thought is that they do not sound like the logical people who should be bent on finding observations and moving onto theories to โ€œhelpโ€ ordinary people get rid once and for all of these evolutionary pests. If all of this ancient thought and degradation that is all they can come up with, I now see why you are so misguided. I love how they have gotten away from explaining the origins of life, which was the Bibles original intent, to heave it over to the God creating the fossil record and the rate or erosion being faster than it actually is. What I can conclude, as a thinking man, is that given this crowd I would rather believe in noting for it would make more sense than this current biblical thought.”

    Like I will always tell Zoe, I will not say that I am perfect orthat my beliefs are absolute. However you and Zoe bring nothing to give us proof of a higher deity and therefore your arguments can be easily turned against you.

  20. BSC Ecology with Earth Science Avatar
    BSC Ecology with Earth Science

    Anyway this has been an interesting discussion but I will have to stop now since I have a ton of work to do and won’t be free until next weekend. I might stop by again later but it isn’t definite. In any case this thread is being replaced by newer articles on the main page so maybe we can comment on those.


  21. moreover i find christians to be intelectually dishonest and have given up their rights to “Seek The Truth” but would rather pursue “Blind Faith” as their way of knowing the origins of the Universe .As a matter of fact the Universe is still in its infantcy of creation and evolving in every miniscuall second of time. It doesn’t need “a creator”for as we can see it self created daily even in a peeble.


  22. To Bsc, AC and Straight Talk:
    Jesus Christ was REAL. You do not have to believe me. Secular scholars and jewish historians testify to that fact. It was observable; he spent 33 years on this earth. He demonstrate according to the prophecies about the Messiah that he was the messiah, Son Of Son. God could not come to speak to man face to face his had to use someone in human form, hence the coming of Christ.

    We are now into human logic. If he was real, and i think this is scares most of you, then God is REAL. So most of you (I am also referring to the secular world in general) realize that to destroy that simple truth, the Bible must be discredited. People when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, they found the entire Book Of Isaiah as it is in the Bible that we have today and other pieces of books. So stop bringing that puny foolishness about translators doing this and this and that being lost.

    This nancy story about God creating a world only to destroy only exposes your lack of understand the sinfulness of sin to God. In Him is no sin; you choose not to believe that there is a Satan; so when Satan does his handiwork, all of you blame God. How can God get involve if you have decided to trade Him for another master, Satan. This is the reason Christ came to plead with humanity to get right with the Creator of the Universe. When God created this earth it was perfect in every way; what we are witnessing today is a dying earth that is being observed by scientist who obviously shall reach the wrong conclusion. The fact is that if God sits back like most of us think he does and do nothing each day this earth shall die and man can do nothing about. Look at the MESS we are in at this moment in time; you name it it is in a mess: nations, economies, people, scientists etc.. Most of the scientific inventions that we so jump up and down about are for the most part scientists stumbling on the truth, penincillin.

    Yet you come here with scientific facts which are only observations recorded by some people and at times fashioned into theories and laws. But you need to understand that if the foundational assumptions or observations are wrong everything else is wrong. The nature of science is such that tomorrow all of what is held to be true today can be thrown out tomorrow. To Bsc.this coming from your evolutionary scientists. You say you do not know these scientists who on the faculty of Southern california university. These people are more expert than you or those regurgitators here who present futility to assist you. I also know that you do not know those authors you asked Zoe to read, but does that make them not real. More and more you show me that you are a wet behind the ears scientist who needs more exposure. Reading foolishness in books is not enough, again I say to you think. You are utilizing more faith mechanism that most religious folk do and do not know it. I choose to believe in God out of my own free will because I have an experience that scientific fact or fiction can not disturb.


  23. “To Bsc, AC and Straight Talk: Jesus Christ was REAL.”

    I think you guys must be careful. There is a fine line between religion and insanity. That is because the religious person does not have cosmic consciousness


  24. lemeul–david
    as you know the darkside so well–could you explain if 911 was a human sacrifice


  25. speaking as an expert problem solver, you can also start with an incorrect assumption to prove/disprove in order to investigate and understand the actual situation / system and derive the correct solution / conclusion


  26. To ROK:
    Bring your proof to indicate that Jesus Christ was not a real man. It seems as though senility is really wreaking havoc with you. Now don’t go there about cosmic consciousness; you cannot even grapple with what is the cosmic or to even speak of its consciousness. I hope that you realize that you are really talking of what you believe to a god. But I had the impression that you like the egyptians believe in many gods. I hope the senility is not confusing you.


  27. @Lemuel

    Your attempt to ridicule me is no proof of the existence Jesus, god or the veracity of the Bible. When I was 17 years old, I set out on a quest to find the truth. Before I was 21 years old I found most of it. That was 35 years ago. No senility then and no senility now either.

    It is not for me to prove there is no god or that Jesus is a fictitious character because I am satisfied within myself that your god is not the Creator like none of the other gods are and that Jesus Christ is a made-up character. I have nothing to prove to anybody. Let them prove it for themselves. One thing for sure is that you cannot prove that your god is the Creator nor can you prove that a man called Jesus Christ walked on this earth.

    There is absolutely no evidence to any of this, that is why Christianity is called a faith. As I keep telling you, it starts out with “I believe” and this has been so for the 2000 years it has been around. It is no different today and certainly you cannot change the facts of history or archeology. So you are pumping bare hot air and have not the first clue of the very faith you believe in.

    This is why I say that Christianity breeds people who are on the edge of madness. Christians have been known to kill people for their beliefs and here is where the madness is demonstrated. If you could erase every person that does not believe in your god, you would. Hence for a belief you would kill (like Hitler) or be happy for the worse to befall people who believe otherwise. You even call them your enemies when all they have is a different view and do not deserve to die for a different view. It makes Christians a very dangerous and wicked set of people.

    The irony of this is that the priest in the Anglican church and RC Church know this and are taught this, but you the ordinary people get caught up. Just like the politicians who appear to be enemies but dine at the same table, the priests too must take some of the blame for the madness because they should explain this to their “flock”… but alas, they focus on getting people in the church at all cost. This is no different to how the profiteers operate; they would sell you anything and try to convince you that you have the best so you would feel good about it.


  28. Bsc, You, as an obviously young science student, have so much to learn, and un-learn, re the Creation vs Evolution debate. They are a few brilliant scientist, like Dr. Jay L. Wile, Ph.d in nuclear chemisty, who WAS an ardent, Atheist/Evolutionists, UNTIL, he took the time, to carefully study and research the Creationist, Christian World view, I had the pleasure of hearing him speak at UWI, Cave Hill, in 2002, to a packed LT1 hall, he held us in the palm of his hand, for over 2 hours, explaining Scientifically, logically, historically, evindencially, why as a Scientist, who now had the facts and evidence from the Creation, historic, Judeo/Christian perspective, honestly, could no longer embrace Evolutionary/Atheism, he now travels speaking and lecturing, as a Creation/Christian, Scientist. As a former Atheist/Evolutionist, he showed us, how the TEXT books used by Evolutionist authors, deliberately, DOCTORED, altered, a number of illustrations, photos, deceitfully to support evolutionary materialism. presenting THEORY, as a FACT.

    I have much I want to deal with, regarding your questions, I’ve not been purposely avoiding answering them, not at all, I just wanted to focus ON the Fossil Record, which IS* central to this entire debate, either confirming OR denying, Creation, or Evolution.

    Briefly, your reference to the Herring Gull and the Lesser Black Backed Gull, vis-a-vis the subspecie interbreeding with neighbouring population and so on, as having evolved from a single species, no, this certainly is NOT any evolutionary process, but, specific individual species, interbreeding, within their group, as they were created to do. Always remember, Bsc, that in the ABSENCE of any intermediate, transitional fossils, for which there are NONE, in this case, as it IS with all others, the direct observable facts and evidence, speak clearly for a solid refutation of evolutionary processes, and confirmation of Special Creation.

    I have to go out today, but, I’ll be posting later on, on the subject matter of Genetics, and the evidence that it is, no friend of Evolution, from a very competent, and highly qualified biologist, that in fact, scientifcally supports the Biblical account narrative.


  29. Bring your proof to indicate that Jesus Christ was not a real man.

    he walked on water and rose from the dead


  30. @kiki: “Jesus Christ … he walked on water …

    In Canada we believe that JC really did walk on water.

    We just figured it was winter….


  31. To ROK:
    I now have to believe that you believe that believers in God are idiots for truth. In FOUR years, you acquired truth. ROK were you reading the abc book. Did you have a smoke of something last night. You have confirmed for all here that senility has gotten hold of you from the tender age of 21.

    If you can say here that there is no evidence to support that Jesus Christ walked on this earth, then you are the one bordering along with senility on the shores of madness. Try electrical shock treatment; I understand that it has the capacity to clear the mind quick quick especially of delusions. I shall deliberately not quote a source to assist you in finding the information. If there one thing that I do Mr. ROK is that I speak about that I know of.

    Do not bring priests whether RC or Anglican as any example; by the time they are indoctrinated to believe that mysticism and the brother hood are more powerful sources of wisdom and understanding, they are no use to any body. In fact they can not even lead a fly. Have you seen the stupidity of Morris recently on CBC; most of them are like him. Go and take a course at Codrington College and I guarantee you that you shall be pelting away the Bible by week 2.

    Given that the priests know all this extra knowledge and understanding, ROK go and become a priest and stop your non sense on this blog. Where in any of my posts I gave the impression that I am a fan of despotism. I am worried about you ROK.


  32. the only way to learn and understand the bible is as a child
    i recieved a 10min crash course for communication and was confirmed, adults are free to make their own choices in life
    regardless of gay/happy junior priests like lemuel w/ no social skill.


  33. I don’t think that Monstahh Rok believes in ancient Egyptian faiths he was just dropping some lyrics about the history and backgrounds of your/the god theories
    (I’m guessing–I never met him yet)


  34. maybe rok should get down on his knees and pray with an a for forgiveness for questioning the one and only when david-lemuel is cranky fighting and freezing everyone from posting.. and chris should explain his position with rok
    = we @ bu need mo’ sunday services on monday, tuesday etc


  35. You worry about me? I think you should worry about yourself. I am fine thank you. You are not so fine because you think that your world in under attack. Just read back your post and see the level of insecurity coming out from you. You have to resort to calling people names and think that by you calling them an idiot makes them one. Little do you know that you are looking like the idiot; fragile, ready to blow your top at any moment and engage in the worst profanities.

    That is what happens to believers because they are stripped of their purpose for living, to believe and be distracted from who they really are. Having not known yourself all these years, because you are taught to believe who you are, makes you very vulnerable and it is surely showing.

    I deal with this problem everyday. I can only but sympathise with Christians, but I try to point out to them that, how they feel, is about what they believe in. They were told not to question but to accept. So after all these years of accepting, they know very little about their own existence. They have not taken the time to study because they are taught not to study and not to ask questions.

    The only thing I will tell you, is that after wasting so much time on this god, when the time comes you will realise that you have to deal with your own existence and you will be like a baby that was just born. No knowledge of anything, you just know that you are somewhere and that is all. What a pity that you would have wasted all your years and found out nothing about yourself at all because you were deceived into being mentally blocked; from using your talents and gaining wisdom.

    By the way, I found out sufficient in those four years to lead me on another path. At that time I was like a driver that just got his license. You know what we say, when you get your license you now have to learn to drive. I have been driving ever since and am now a seasoned driver. Don’t look for a saviour, save yourself. Let us put it this way, even if there is a saviour, saving yourself is extra insurance because if what you believe is untrue, you would know sufficient to navigate the waters. The probability that what you believe is true = Zero, but even if it was 50-50, that is too far out. Know yourself, know you home, know your world and know your universe. All are the works of the Creator and there for you to take note. If you don’t, who can be blamed?


  36. (just in case) god bless rok


  37. @ROK: “The probability that what you believe is true = Zero…

    ROK et al… My apologies for being pedantic, but I consider this important.

    True thinkers believe that the probably of what the religious believe approaches something like “infinity / (infinity – 1)”. As in, very close to zero.

    But because we cannot prove what they say is incorrect, we cannot say what they say has zero probability. We can, however, say that we believe that the probability they are correct is 0.000 … [many, many zeros] … 0001.

    We of the Scientific Method examine ***all the evidence***. And are always willing to examine new evidence.

    And then apply Occam’s razor.


  38. To ROK:
    Why is it that you believe in plural gods, but have a difficulty accepting the God of the Bible? Your gods, according to you, can not create, but you are incensed because the God of the bible is not only the creator; He claims for himself the title of the only God; as He puts, there is no one else.

    Where is the evidence that your gods exist; what have they done for you later. I find blessings and goodness in mine each day. I know that you despise the Bible, but i shall give you this one. Elijah met with the worshipers of Dagon (sounds familiar) and they were challenged to bring fire on a sacrifice. Like how you attempt to brow beat here each day, they spent hours beating themselves until blood flowed. Dagon would not appear for he is no god. When it was Elijah’s turn a simple prayer of FAITH brought fire from the sky.

    Your belief or inability to believe does not make the God of the Bible null and void. When they tell you that you have some power within you that needs to be unfurled do not trust (faith) in their admonitions. I have to worry about you ROK for there none so blind as those who would not see. I hope I have not said anything here that you see as attacking you or attempting to put you down, for that in the past I apologize.


  39. To lemuel… A serious question…

    What do you think of Buddhism?


  40. @Lemuel
    “Why is it that you believe in plural gods, but have a difficulty accepting the God of the Bible?”

    Where is it that I said that I believe in any god(s)? Are you a five year old or what?


  41. god is subjective not objective
    and more important to some


  42. Thanks Chris, but with a fella like Lemuel, he would not know the difference. Better to say Zero rather than to give him a straw to clutch at. He may forsake land and drown clutching at it, thinking that once he get the straw he don’t need the land. LOL!


  43. @kiki

    There has been a lot of talk about who is smoking what on this topic:-)

    For the record David is not* Lemuel.

    Secondly you have been posting long enough on BU to know that when you post links and or use Chrome, Safari or other high version browsers the WordPress Spam Guard becomes interest.


  44. @ROK: “…but with a fella like Lemuel, he would not know the difference. Better to say Zero rather than to give him a straw to clutch at.

    But lemuel is not the only audience member.

    There are many watching and learning….

    (I suspect Zoe is right now searching though his databases looking for relevant language… LOL.)


  45. “I have to worry about you Lemuel for there none so blind as those who WILL not see.”


  46. so why did I get frozen out last friday


  47. @kiki

    God operates in amazing ways his wonders to perform.


  48. @BU:David: “God operates in amazing ways his wonders to perform.

    Just for the record, are we, your readership, to interpret this to mean you believe in a god?

    If so, which?


  49. you r all tripping fk’d up on god


  50. To ROK:
    If you do not believe in any gods, what do you believe in. Now remember to that which worship is given to you it is a god, even money. When you are not with the Mayans who worshiped the SUN; you are running with the evolutionists. That car you learned to drive seem to be going around in a circle.

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