Submitted by Georgie Porgie
Any truly valid interpretation of Scripture must be based upon sound rules. These rules must then be applied consistently. The following are the most basic rules we attempt to always follow in our interpretation of Scripture. We do not feel at liberty to discard these rules when they lead us to a conclusion in contradiction to what ‘orthodoxy’ has taught us. We instead endeavour to allow the scriptures to speak for themselves and believe by faith whatever conclusions they may lead us to.
I It will be assumed that the 39 books of the Old Testament, and the 27 Books of the New Testament are the wholly inspired Word of God. “That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Tim 3:17.
II The Bible itself will always be used to define its own terminology, symbols, etc. No appeal will be made to any man-made dogma, theory, or writing, such as the apocrypha or psudopygrypha, to explain Biblical terms which are already clearly defined within the Bible itself.
III The proper interpretation of any given passage will be determined, not only by that with which it stands immediately connected, but by considering all scriptures which have bearing upon the subject throughout the entire Bible . The truth of any given subject can only be determined by bringing together all scripture which sheds light on that subject.
IV Every passage will be given as literal an interpretation as possible, unless such a literal interpretation would render the meaning absurd, or bring it into disagreement with other passages which speak in positive language.
V No interpretation will be given to any scripture beyond what the fair meaning of the text itself allows. For Example: Carcass cannot in any case be interpreted to mean immortal soul burning in hell.
VI All passages belonging to any particular subject must contain one or more of the peculiar features of that subject, by which it may be identified as belonging to that subject.
VII The truth of any doctrine must be determined firstly by those passages which speak in clear and positive language, and not those which are symbolic or parabolic in nature. No inference should be drawn from any symbolic or parabolic passage which would bring the passage into contradiction with those which speak unequivocally on the same subject.
VIII No doctrine will be derived based on a single passage of scripture, a mere inference, or an argument from silence. Any true doctrine will found throughout the entire Bible.
Fundamental Rules for Interpreting Scripture
1. Since Jesus spoke and the Bible writers wrote primarily for the people of their day, always consider the historical, geographical, and cultural setting of the passage you are studying.
2. Always consider the context of the unit, chapter, and book when interpreting a text. The meaning of each verse must agree with the theme of the unit, chapter, and book, as well as the overall teaching of the Bible.
3. When interpreting a passage or verse, make sure to study each sentence grammatically to get the correct meaning. Pay special attention to the verbs as they deal with actions.
4. Make sure to get the meaning of each text as intended by the Bible writer or inspired speaker before making application. This is called bridge-building and is important in giving Bible studies.
5. Difficult texts must be interpreted in the light of the clear teachings of the whole Bible. Therefore, study all that Scripture teaches on a given subject before coming to a conclusion on any single verse.
6. The New Testament must be interpreted in the light of the Old Testament and vice versa. The Old Testament is promise and the New Testament is fulfilment. Both complement each other.
7. For accuracy, use the best translations and, if at all possible, compare with the original text.
Here are the eight rules:
1) The rule of DEFINITION: What does the word mean? Any study of Scripture must begin with a study of words. Define your terms and then keep to the terms defined. The interpreter should conscientiously abide by the plain meaning of the words. This quite often may require using a Hebrew/English or Greek/English lexicon in order to make sure that the sense of the English translation is understood. A couple of good examples of this are the Greek words “allos” and “heteros”. Both are usually translated as “another” in English – yet “allos” literally means “another of the same type” and “heteros” means “another of a different type.”
2) The rule of USAGE: It must be remembered that the Old Testament was written originally by, to and for Jews. The words and idioms must have been intelligible to them – just as the words of Christ when talking to them must have been. The majority of the New Testament likewise was written in a milieu of Greco-Roman (and to a lesser extent Jewish) culture and it is important to not impose our modern usage into our interpretation. It is not worth much to interpret a great many phrases and histories if one’s interpretations are shaded by pre-conceived notions and cultural biases, thereby rendering an inaccurate and ineffectual lesson.
3) The rule of CONTEXT: The meaning must be gathered from the context. Every word you read must be understood in the light of the words that come before and after it. Many passages will not be understood at all, or understood incorrectly, without the help afforded by the context. A good example of this is the Mormon practice of using 1 Cor. 8:5b: “…for there be gods many and lords many…” as a “proof text” of their doctrine of polytheism. However, a simple reading of the whole verse in the context of the whole chapter (e.g. where Paul calls these gods “so-called”), plainly demonstrates that Paul is not teaching polytheism.
4) The rule of HISTORICAL BACKGROUND: The interpreter must have some awareness of the life and society of the times in which the Scripture was written. The spiritual principle will be timeless but often can’t be properly appreciated without some knowledge of the background. If the interpreter can have in his mind what the writer had in his mind when he wrote – without adding any excess baggage from the interpreter’s own culture or society – then the true thought of the Scripture can be captured resulting in an accurate interpretation. Oliver Wendell Holmes said, “Our only interest in the past is for the light it throws upon the present.”
5) The rule of LOGIC: Interpretation is merely logical reasoning. When interpreting Scripture, the use of reason is everywhere to be assumed. Does the interpretation make sense? The Bible was given to us in the form of human language and therefore appeals to human reason – it invites investigation. It is to be interpreted as we would any other volume: applying the laws of language and grammatical analysis. As Bernard Ramm said:
“What is the control we use to weed out false theological speculation? Certainly the control is logic and evidence… interpreters who have not had the sharpening experience of logic…may have improper notions of implication and evidence. Too frequently such a person uses a basis of appeal that is a notorious violation of the laws of logic and evidence.” (Protestant Biblical Interpretation, Boston: W. A. Wilde, 1956)
6) The rule of PRECEDENT: We must not violate the known usage of a word and invent another for which there is no precedent. Just as a judge’s chief occupation is the study of previous cases, so must the interpreter use precedents in order to determine whether they really support an alleged doctrine. Consider the Bereans in Acts 17:10-12 who were called “noble” because they searched the Scriptures to determine if what Paul taught them was true.
7) The rule of UNITY: The parts of Scripture being interpreted must be construed with reference to the significance of the whole. An interpretation must be consistent with the rest of Scripture. An excellent example of this is the doctrine of the Trinity. No single passage teaches it, but it is consistent with the teaching of the whole of Scripture (e.g. the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are referred to individually as God; yet the Scriptures elsewhere teach there is only one God).
8) The rule of INFERENCE: An inference is a fact reasonably implied from another fact. It is a logical consequence. It derives a conclusion from a given fact or premise. It is the deduction of one proposition from another proposition. Such inferential facts or propositions are sufficiently binding when their truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence. Competent evidence means such evidence as the nature of the thing to be proved admits. Satisfactory evidence means that amount of proof which would ordinarily satisfy an unprejudiced mind beyond a reasonable doubt. Jesus used this rule when he proved the resurrection of the dead to the unbelieving Sadducees in Matt. 22:23-33.
Learning these eight rules and properly applying them will help keep any interpreter from making errors and will hopefully alleviate many of the disagreements unfortunately present in Christianity today. However, these eight principles are no substitute for the Holy Spirit which will, if you let Him, guide you in the truth [John 14:26]. If you receive Christ into your heart, God will give you the Holy Spirit freely as a gift [Acts 2:38]. I urge you, if you have not already done so, to examine the claims and the work of Jesus Christ and to receive Him as your Saviour.
Interpreting Scripture (Hermeneutics)
Hermeneutics is defined in one dictionary as “the art of finding the meaning of an author’s words and phrases, and of explaining it to others.” When applied to Scripture, accurate hermeneutics would require the scholar to:
• Study the context of the passage and the theme of the book.
• Look up the actual meaning of each word in the original languages.
• Note the verb tenses, the cases, and other grammatical determinants.
• Learn the cultural setting of the passage.
• Determine what the original readers understood it to mean.
• Check out cross-references to see how the words are used in other contexts.
• See how the first mention of the word or topic is presented in the Bible.
• Confirm an interpretation with two or three similar passages.
These are all proven study methods and good guidelines of interpretation. Here are some other additional factors of correct Biblical hermeneutics?
1. Spiritual Perception Over Intellectual Understanding
The first factor of interpreting Scripture is to approach it as an exercise in spiritual discernment rather than just an intellectual pursuit. Paul emphasized this in his letter to the Corinthian believers. “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (I Corinthians 2:14). Jesus Himself confirmed that Biblical understanding does not come from human reasoning but from spiritual enlightenment. He said, “I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes” (Matthew 11:25).
The Holy Spirit is the One Who inspired the writing of Scripture, and He is the most qualified One to interpret its meaning to each reader. Jesus assured us that the Holy Spirit would indeed guide us into all truth. “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13).
This being the case, it is also reasonable to conclude that if a person who wants to interpret Scripture has sinful habits or practices in his life that grieve the Holy Spirit and quench His power, the Holy Spirit will not reveal the truth of Scripture to such a person. In fact, God warns that such individuals will take Scripture out of context to their own destruction. (See II Peter 3:16.) This result supports the axiom that a man’s morality will dictate his theology and his philosophy.
2. God’s Revelation Over Human Reasoning
In the final analysis, accurate Biblical interpretation is based on the revelation of Jesus Christ throughout the Scriptures. Nowhere is this more clearly demonstrated than on that walk on the road to Emmaus. The disciples had been personally taught by Jesus for three years.
However, they still did not understand the Scriptures from which He taught. They were distracted by the conflicting interpretations of contemporary scholars. It was not until Jesus began with Moses and all the prophets and explained how they revealed Him that they understood the true meaning of Scripture. “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself” (Luke 24:27). They later recalled, “Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the Scriptures?” (Luke 24:32).
The scholars of Jesus’ day carried out heated debates over the correct interpretation of Scripture, but Jesus counselled them to search the Scriptures on the basis that they testified of Him. “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (John 5:39).
3. Genuine Love Rather Than Justification of Selfishness
Since the Scriptures reveal the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, it also follows that the primary theme of the Bible is the love of God and how we are to live out His love in our daily words and actions.
When a clever lawyer tried to involve Jesus in a wordy battle, He began his forensic sparring with the question “Which is the greatest commandment?” The reply that Jesus gave is a profound principle for Biblical interpretation. All the Law and prophets are based on the command to love God with all of our hearts, souls, minds, and strength, and to love our neighbours as ourselves.
Therefore, we must interpret Scripture on the basis of how it teaches us to love God and to love others. Love is the theme of the Bible. All good character qualities are simply practical expressions of genuine love. When the Pharisees used the Law of Moses to justify their harsh and unloving treatment of wives, Jesus reproved them for hardness of heart and took them back to the Creation design of one man and one woman becoming one flesh for the rest of their lives.
The lawyer who tried to engage Jesus in debate then tried to justify himself by asking, “Who is my neighbour?” to which Jesus responded with the parable of the Good Samaritan.
4. Christ’s Commands Over Man’s Theology
Every interpretation of Scripture is based on some foundational structure of reasoning. Jesus provides the structure of truth in the commands that He gave to His disciples during His earthly ministry, and they are the guiding lights for correct Biblical interpretation. They clarify what was written in the Old Testament and are further explained in New Testament teaching. Jesus promises that if we keep His commands before our eyes, He will reveal more of Himself to us. This was the great goal of Paul: “That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection” (Philippians 3:10). Jesus further promises, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31–32).
It is customary for a Bible scholar to base his interpretation of a passage on the theological position that he has accepted. The problem with this approach is that no theological system is totally without some human error, because it is not inspired. It is man’s explanation of Biblical truth.
This is not to say that theology is unimportant. Wrong doctrine leads to wrong behaviour. No one was more concerned about false doctrine than the Apostle Paul. He maintained a continual battle against false teaching. However, he did not base sound doctrine on the theological views of his day but on the words of Jesus Christ and that which leads to Christ like living.
He explains this in his epistle to Timothy. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself” (I Timothy 6:3–5).
5. One Interpretation and Many Applications
The Bible makes it clear that there is only one interpretation of Scripture. However, there can be many applications. It is the Holy Spirit Who guides us not only to the right interpretation of a passage but also to the precise application of Scripture to our daily lives. If our lives are in harmony with the Lord, we can expect the Holy Spirit to illuminate certain passages of Scripture for our personal application. When this happens, it is God giving us a “rhema” of Scripture.
In the New Testament, the Word of God is generally referred to by the Greek word logos. Jesus is identified as the Living Word (logos). However, there are many references that use the Greek word rhema to define the Word of God. A rhema is a precise direction of Scripture for a particular person or circumstance. When Jesus told Peter to cast his net on the other side of the boat, Peter replied, “Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word [rhema] I will let down the net” (Luke 5:5). Jesus did not tell every one to cast their nets on the other side of the boat—only Peter.
It is on the point of the Holy Spirit applying a passage of Scripture to a decision that critics often rise up and claim that this is not acceptable hermeneutics. Their quarrel is not with believers who know in their spirits that God is directing them by the witness of two or three rhemas, but with the Holy Spirit Who confirms the application of rhemas.
Jesus used rhemas in overcoming Satan’s temptations, and one of the passages He used affirms rhemas. “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word [rhema] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4).
6. Correct Divisions of Truth Versus Truth Out of Balance
Paul gave Timothy wise instruction in hermeneutics when he wrote, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (II Timothy 2:15).
Scripture is a living, powerful instrument in the hand of God. It functions on what appears to us to be paradoxes. In a similar fashion, the muscles in our bodies are only able to function by opposing tensions.
On the one hand, Scripture presents the Law of God, but then it contrasts this with the grace of God. Scripture teaches the need for justice, but then it counters this with mercy. We are told to cease from our own labour and enter the rest that is in Christ. At the same time, we are commanded to work for the night is coming when no man can work and to labour for the Lord. We have freedom in Christ. However, we are to make ourselves servants to all people.
If we emphasize only one side of God’s Biblical equation, we can certainly support it with verses of Scripture, but we will come out with the wrong answer. Truth out of balance leads to heresy. For example, if we emphasize the “rest” that a believer has and fail to give equal and primary emphasis to the “labour” of a believer, we will view any emphasis on working for the Lord as legalism.
Paul put labour and rest together when he wrote, “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief” (Hebrews 4:9–11). Similarly, there is certainly freedom in Christ. However, if we focus on freedom, we will react to God-ordained authority as being oppressive and cultish.
Proper hermeneutics requires diligent use of all the above factors under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Avoid Scripture Twisting: Eight Basic Rules Of Bible Interpretation
1. Begin with what the passage says, but always ask, “What does the passage mean?”, not what it “says.”
2. Pay attention to the Greek and Hebrew, (For those without language training, an interlinear Bible used in conjunction with a Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words or Expository Dictionary of Bible Words is recommended).
3. Remember the context. Read verses in the context of the whole passage, the chapter and even the book. Finally, keep in mind the larger context of the New Testament or Old Testament.
4. The Bible is progressive revelation. This means that, generally, the New Testament specifically interprets the Old Testament.
5. Always interpret the incidental passage by the systematic teachings of that topic; consider all the passages dealing with the topic, A good topical Bible is a useful aid (e.g. Nave’s Topical Bible).
6. Interpret the unclear passages by the clear ones. A favourite ploy of the cults is to choose a difficult passage and build their unique doctrines on it.
7. Beware of novel interpretations, check various conservative commentaries on the passage. There is very little new under the sun. Many of the heresies of the cults have been dealt with thoroughly. Even though there are many Christian denominations, it is interesting that on the essential doctrines there is solid agreement. Always go beyond what the passage is saying to get at its intended meaning. Cult leaders are expert in isolating passages and imposing their interpretation on it.
8. Come to Scripture prayerfully, submitting to be taught by the Holy Spirit, allowing the Scripture to interpret itself and not be clouded by personal doctrinal presuppositions.
1. Pray! Pray! Pray! The Holy Spirit knows better then you do!
2. Always know what the verse actually says, not what you think you remember it saying
3. Take the verse in literary context, don’t just read what you want to read to prove your point and don’t forget the Bible is a mosaic of different kinds of literature meant to be read different ways.
4. Take the verse in cultural context, just like you saying “it’s raining cats and dogs” is not what you literally meant
5. Remember the Bible is a whole 66 books! Interpret all verses in relation the other 1000’s of verses
6. Check the other translations, The variations are complimentary and show the whole picture
7. The Bible was not originally written in English, go back to the sources
8. Theological presuppositions are bad, scripture determines doctrine, not the other way around
9. Check the Theologians’ opinions, The Ph.D, professor of heart surgery of Harvard is better then your uncle Ted’s heart removal service. Professional opinions matter! (but don’t assume they’re always right)
10. Assume nothing, be ready to learn, don’t give up. Remember, only God knows everything.
561 responses to “Hermeneutics And Exegesis”
@All…
Believe it or not, we’ve actually made a little progress here in the last 24 hours.
@Dictionary: “…the Bible does not discuss Young’s [Double Slit] experiment of 1802 or thereabouts…
@Georgie Porgie: “As you know prophesy is easiest to understand as it is fulfilled .
What we have here is an admission from two of the three of the “BU Trinity” that the Bible does not predict the future.
What, then, is a little scary is that many believe that it does…
…and that everyone who disagrees must be wrong (or worse).
For the record, I have *absolutely* no problem with anyone believing whatever they want (so long as it does no harm to anyone else.) But please don’t tell me (or anyone else) that you are right and I (or anyone else) are wrong unless you can prove it.
Faith, by definition, cannot be proven.
Techie
No way, ports, routers, cables, servers etc dont talk back..lol, I like it that way.
I agree with you. Then you dont get any H2S Methane or bovine excrement coming back at you.
Yes I grew up on Tiger Malt and usually dont drink any kind. Are you drinking that simulated coconut water they sell in 2 L bottles in the shops in NY?
Respect. DITTO Sir?
Those of you have functioning betz cells. Note that I said the Bible predicts a ten nation confederacy in Daniel.
That is very very clear
The Bible does not necessarily have to give details as to the nature of that confederacy.
Daniel has accurately predicted the course of Gentile History with respect to the rise of Babylon. The Medes & Persians, Greece , The Romans and his prediction of the Revised Roman Empire. The first four of these predictions have come to pass, and on time as predicted.
The fact that we do not know exactly what the nature of the ten nation confederacy is at this time does not mean that Daniel’s prediction is inaccurate. It means simply that we DO NOT KNOW.
Some scholars who are receiving news feeds from all over the world daily, (since this is what they do) and following web sites that report news that are not getting into the main stream news, have put out a possible deliniation of the nations in 10 blocks that make reasonable sense.
However, they are quick to point out that the reasoning of man is not enough to determine what God will do next.
I reiterate that prophesy is easiest to understand as it is fulfilled . All sound sane serious students of the sacred scriptures know that this is true.
@ GP…
LOL…. the only thing that “talks” back to me is my network tester, funny though, it is always right…lol, I am the one who makes the mistakes and it tells me where (distance, pin # etc) and how (bend radius, damaged insulation etc).
Come to think of it….I put a lot of ‘faith’ in that instrument….lol.
The only coconut water I use here is the one in a can by Grace. that seems to be the closest to the real thing.
Have a good one, today is lovely and I am going to make the most of it.
Techie
Thats interesting.
I dont let students talk back to me with BS, and I dont answer their rudeness either.
I just foward thier bad behavior to the President of the schools involved pronto, and send them a copy to let them know that I have taken the matter on high. Then I get on with my business. I let the “top brass” deal with student dissent. Thats what I like about teaching online! Every thing in one school is monitored. Nothing is private.
So its easy for me to respond or dont respond on BU.
Anonymous
Re your question
The Beast ? I thought that was another name for the antichrist!
With respect to the triumvirate I mentioned.
‘In Revelation 12 we read about the devil, aka Satan the Accuser being expelled from entering heaven to accuse God’s people any more as described in Job and in Zechriah chapter 3
‘In Revelation Chapter 13, we read about three personages
In verse 1 we read about the BEAST thus
1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
In verse 4 we read of another person THE DRAGON
4. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The BEAST IS ALSO CALLED THE FALSE PROPHET FROM THE DESCRIPTION ABOVE
In verse 11 there is yet another person THE ANTICHRIST The description below coincides with the other descritions of him elsewhere.
11. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17. And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
In Chapter 16 13 we again see this triumvirate mentioned.
13. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
In chapter 19: 19-20 we see the demise of both the beast (antichrist) and the other beast (the false prophet). Note that the demise of the dragon is described elsewhere in the chapter. So you were partially correct in thinking that antichrist is also called The Beast!
19. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Finally it is noteworthy that WHEN GLOBAL WARMING REALLY OCCURS, the Bible gives its origin and source in Revelation Chapter 16 :8- 9 thus
8. And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Hope this lends some clarity.
Georgie Porgie // March 18, 2010 at 2:23 PM
Those of you have functioning betz cells. Note that I said the Bible predicts a ten nation confederacy in Daniel.
*******************************************
I am no bibleophile. However, in High School I was taught that when the bible talked about a nation they were talking about tribes or clans. For instance Israel was a tribe or clan and NOT a country as some christians and the Israelis today believe.
I do believe that in the same way we have the Mohawk Nation, the Cree Nation, the Dene Nation, etc., etc.
Pat the pit dwelling parasite.
It was said earlier in this thread:
“A FAITH CANNOT BE A TRUTH!”
“Faith by definition, cannot be proven.”
To those without FAITH, in the Historic Christ, who Lived, Died, and Rose from the dead, exactly as prophecied, WILL NEVER understand what OUR Fatih IS!
They are multitudes who have faith…BUT, in what, or whom? No substance at ALL…no historic, warranted credible truth! Faith in a vacum of myths!
Wheras, genuine, justified believers in Jesus Christ of Salvation History, has PROVEN Himself, to vast multitudes of people, across the face of this earth, with absolutely, utterly amazing PROOF, in a variety of circumstances, DAILY, myself included, time and time again, living empirical PROOF, that *HE* is faithful to His Word, as recorded in the Bible.
One such miracle of our FAITH, in Him, as I have already shared before on BU, is the miraculous healing of my Niece in T’dad, of Macular Degeneration Wet, at age 38, which was severely advanced, an old person’s desease, NO known cure, and she was miraculously HEALED, the Jewish eye specialist in Miami, whom she attended for one year, said…’It is a miracle…I have never seen anything like this…’ She has promised to send me the graphic computer print-out from the Doctor, of her before and after condition, totally healed in, by and through Jesus Christ, and there are numerous other such testimonies all over the world, that testify, empirically, to our FAITH, in the One, who is the great Omnipotent, healer, Saviour and Lord.
Because:
FAITH sees the invinsible, believes the incredible, and RECEIVES the IMPOSSIBLE.
FAITH is to ACCEPT the IMPOSSIBLE, do without the indispensable, and bear the intolerable.
– David Lloyd George.
A Little faith will bring your soul to heaven; a great faith will bring heaven to your soul.
-Spurgeon.
FAITH is not believing that God can, but that God WILL!
FAITH is to believe what we do not see, and the reward of this faith, IS to see what we BELIEVE.
Faith in God is indispensable to successful statesmanship.
-Abraham Lincoln.
Oh YES, our FAITH is based and EXPERIENCED, numerously, empirically, daily, in so many different ways, that we KNOW beyond any shadow of a doubt, to a degree of moral certainity, that the Lord Jesus Christ, IS TRUE to His Word, and the promises contained therein.
Therefore, our FAITH, is in the *PERSON* of Christ, who has PROVEN to us, that, FAITH in Him, is TRUTH!
Absolute truth!
Unbelief knows nothing about such TRUTH!
Pat
Re ….in High School I was taught that when the bible talked about a nation they were talking about tribes or clans.
Yes Pat tribes or clans make up nations. Don’t they? Several clans or families make up Scotland and many African nations have several identifiable tribes.
Actual Israel started off with 12 tribes (or 13 in a sense).
Before they went down to dwell in Goshen they were promised a “land” by God with distinct boundaries in the Abrahamic covenant in 15:19-21 and a few other places.
Under Joshua they conquered most of this land, and occupied most of it under David and Solomon.
From back in Genesis and also Deuteronomy especially, it was predicted that they would be removed from the land of promise for their idolatry and unbelief. These predictions came true first when the Assyrians and Babylonians carried off the Northern 10 tribes and the Babylonians carried of the Southern two tribes.
Now Isaiah had predicted that the exile afterthe Babylonian captivity would be 70 years.
Daniel read the scrolls of Isaiah and was able to exegete this promise and was so concerned when the time was at hand that he sought the Lord diligently about this matter (see Daniel 9). – I told the forum that exegesis is nothing new.
Daniel made predictions about the general course of world history and pronouncements about the eschaton.
Nehemiah was also able to exegete the prophetic scriptures as is evinced from a reading of his book on this matter.
Now whereas the Jews were allowed to return to their home land after the exile only about 20 % of them returned at that time, under Zerrubbabel, and Ezra and Nehemiah as they were well entrenched in the commerce and other businesses they had undertaken during the exile.
The returnees repopulated the place, and were again expelled in AD 70 during a Roman invasion by Titus.
They remain dispersed until 1948, when they began returning to the land given to them by God by promise to Abraham in an unconditional covenant, according to several predictions that this would happen in many of the prophetic books of the Bible.
For those of us who study and believe the Bible, this is the accepted explanation. For those who don’t study and believe the Bible, there is a different understanding. It seems that we will soon see if the Bible is true or not.
One thing is sure this having a child from an out side woman by Abraham is causing bare trouble! Also the misunderstanding of the difference of the words “seeD” and “seeDS: in Galatians 3:16.
I hope this makes some sense………whether or not you agree or believe it.
Pat
BTW it is generaly thought that once Great Britain who ruled the world for over 300 years and of whom it was said that the sun never sets on the British Empire lost that Empire after they reneged on promises to Israel about “the land” in what is called the Balfour Declaration.
Now whether we believe this is so or not, it is clear that Great Britain aint great no more and their empire is long lost.
They were replaced by a set of johnies come lately who say they have the greatest country ever! Watch the “Anointed one” lead them to lost of thier empire in acts of Antisemitism. Its all happening before our very eyes. Whether we believe it or not, or whether we percieve it or not.
It will soon be time to meet the UPPER TAKER!
@ GP
You like you catching Zoe’s fever. What “Anointed one” what “acts of Antisemitism” what?!?
Man that is bare bovine excrement, as you would say.
Yes, the Jewish people in the Old Testament, started out as ‘Tribes’ but, Almighty God, who created them, as He did the Gentiles, said:
“Thus saith the Lord which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts IS His name.”
“If the ordinances depart from before Me, saith the Lord, then shall the seed of ISRAEL (the Jews) also shall cease from being a NATION before Me for ever.”
(Jeremiah 31: 35, 36) emphasis added.
The permanence of the cycle of nature, Sun, Moon, Stars, etc, etc., that Almighty God decreed by ordinances, which IS under His Omnipotent control, and the immeasurableness of heaven and earth, guarantee the survival of the Hebrew people, the Jews, as a NATION forever; which, after 2,000 years of dispersion throuhout the nations of the world, were FINALLY brought back to their ancient homeland, that God gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, their forefathers, exactly as God said He would do, in May, 1948, and became the Nation of Israel, ratified by the then League of Nations, now the UN.
“And I (God) will make them one NATION (unification of the two kingdoms) in the land upon the mountain of Israel…” (Ezekiel 37: 22b) emphasis added.
“Behold, thou shalt call a NATION (Israel) that thou knowest not, and NATIONS that knew not thee shall run unto thee because the Lord thy God, for the Holy One of Israel; for He hath glorified thee.” (Isaiah 55:5) emphasis added.
This is referring to the Nation of Israel, which will attract nations to the Lord.
“They are multitudes who have faith…BUT, in what, or whom? No substance at ALL…no historic, warranted credible truth! Faith in a vacum of myths!”
This aptly described christianity… but that is why it is a faith.
“Wheras, genuine, justified believers in Jesus Christ of Salvation History, has PROVEN Himself…”
So then, why is it still a FAITH? It was meant to be a faith. If it is TRUTH, why do you have to JUSTIFY it?
“One such miracle of our FAITH, in Him, as I have already shared before on BU, is the miraculous healing of my Niece in T’dad…”
You are attributing this to your god but you have no proof that god intervened. This would not be the first so-called “Miracle” in medicine and I am sure that people of other faith have been through similar experiences praying to their god and got the same results as you. They will then attribute that to their god, not yours.
“FAITH is to ACCEPT the IMPOSSIBLE, do without the indispensable, and bear the intolerable.”
This telling me that slaves had serious faith before they were bullied into accepting christianity. It is this initial faith in whatever we had (and it was not christianity) is what has caused us to survive up to today. This is the resilience of the African man. What you have is an African approach to religion, where you put your all into it and even invent fictions so as to try to keep your sanity.
“Faith in God is indispensable to successful statesmanship.”
I believe that you have misread the interpretation of this. You have any idea what it is to be a politician? Or should I say, a political actor?
“Therefore, our FAITH, is in the *PERSON* of Christ, who has PROVEN to us, that, FAITH in Him, is TRUTH!”
Christ has never proven a thing. There is “absolute” doubt that he ever existed. As a matter of fact, when it comes to the bible, the question of proof that god is god is never addressed. All that is said is have faith. “Do not tempt the Lord Thy God” is your answer to anyone who would question. Therefore there is no proof and it was meant for there never to be proof.
If you so choose to “believe”, then so “believe”. At the end of the day, the only thing you can tell me when all the ranting is over is, “I believe”. You can’t take it a step further than that. Even when you speak of “truth” and “absolute truth”, you have to resort to saying, “I believe that this is absolute truth.”
Well, it does boil down to belief, right? Even your Dick agrees with that when he said, “It is true that Christianity is a Faith”.
@Dic
I want you to address this statement:
“You have been worshipping this blue-eyed, blonde-haired man for hundreds of years. There can be no denying it and anybody who tries to deny it in the face of historical and contemporary facts is not one to be believed on anything.”
I want you to clearly tell me that statement is false.
Onlookers:
Much of the onward from the anti-Christian commenters is, sadly, predictably pathetic: distractive, distorting, and denigratory.
Let us take up one bit of deception, by CH, noting along the way that the has not had the common decency to apologise for disrespecting the blood-sealed testimony of the key witnesses of the church’s first generation, who remained steadfast in the face of flesh-tearing whips, fire, sword and public execution by crucifixion and the like.
Now, from a further statement on the obvious fact that he Bible is not a physics textbook and so cannot reasonably be expected to address operational science matters such as Young’s double slit expt of 1802 — which has been openly acknowledged fro about a year to my knowledge, he then snidely asserts above:
This is of course a strawman distortion to the point of outright willful deception.
For, first, it flies in the face of precisely where the OT prophets DID predict the future very specifically and on the critical matter, as has been linked and discussed over and over again, i.e. the passion of the Messiah leading up to his salvific death, burial and resurrection as predicted in inter alia Isa 52:13 – 53:12, and as recorded in 1 Cor 15:1 – 11 (NB: Ac 8:26 ff, which shows that it has been known and used in Christian outreach since the 30’s AD), which repeatedly points out how the steps in that week happened “according to the scriptures.”
All along CH has ducked and dodged this issue on its focal point, and — for week after week — none of his ilk have been able to address the 12 minimal facts easily and best explained by the 55 AD record of the summary of the testimony of the 500+ witnesses to the resurrection, dating in turn to the 30’s AD.
But now, on trying to inject an irrelevant matter that the scripture has no interests in — specifics of scientific experiments of 1802 — Ch would now wrench the record of scripure in the classic fashion predicted of mocking skeptics in 2 Peter 3 as discussed since last Christmas. So, coming out the starting gates, he fulfils a prophecy of scripture on ignorant, destructive mockers who wrench the scriptures and mislead others.
Going back to 1 Cor 15:1 – 11, the eyewitness lifetime record in relevant part is:
This record points to Isa 52:13 – 53:12 (which, on its ties to then in-process events in Israel’s history dates to c. 750 – 700 BC, and we have two DSS MSS from c 200 BC, as well as the Septuagint translation c 2 – 300 BC, so there is no question of after the fact tampering). The relevant prophetic aspects of this text are:
[ . . . ]
In short, to stretch the fact that he Bible is not a current day physics textbook and sohas no interest in say Young’s double-slit experiment [but does address and have an interest in the grounding of Science in God’s Creation order . . . note how CH ducked this above], into a bald assertion that “the Bible does not predict the future” is a willful deception. At best it is a passive lie by willfully refusing to address easily accessible, plain facts: what you SHOULD know. I trust that CH is not in a worse estate than that, i.e. knowing public deception about the scriptures.
As a bonus, we see precisely why GP was right to say that prophecy is often sufficiently veiled — think here of Galileo’s published anagram on Venus’ phases being similar to the moon’s as a claim on academic priority — that we see it most clearly after the fact.
For, often the behaviour of men would be different from what it is if they regarded the prophecies aright, and the scriptures are often written in such a way that it is those of good heart who will see how the course of events or the situation is aligning with the Scriptures ahead of time [many recognised Jesus as the true messiah], but those who are disinclined to the way of truth and right will be darkened in their understanding. [Cf here the leaders of Israel who inadvertently helped fulfill the very prophecies that should have warned them to act in a different way, because events were cutting across their interests and agendas as they saw them]. Indeed, Jesus warned on this phenomenon several times, pointing out how one function of he word of God is to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart, so the teachings will be opaque tot hose disinclined to heed the voice of God.
(In Jn 8 as several times discussed here at BU, he warned ex-followers that they were in a position where BECAUSE they were hearing the truth from him, but were adhering instead to a deception and rejecting correction, they could not understand and accept what he had to say. The logic is straightforward, though a bit ironic: P => Q, NOT-Q so NOT-P. And if one adheres to the error that makes Q seem false, then one will reject Q on hearing it, then infer quite logically but unsoundly, from NOT-Q to NOT-P. So, CH and ilk need to get their facts straight first, if he is going to understand the truth that makes sense of these facts. And a key issue on that is the need to stop playing selectively hyperskeptical games with credible facts on well-tested principles of warrant. [And BTW, this has a lot to do with why knowledge is inherently a matter of faith, and why we exert faith to come to accept and commit ourselves to the actually credible, well-warranted truth. But others of CH’s ilk are making a mountain of hyperskpetical objections and self-deceptions out of this easily understood molehill.])
But, after the fact, all becomes clear, the anagram is solved and we can see the pattern in stark outline.
An excellent case in point is the Ethiopian eunuch and treasurer under Candace who is the foundation of Ethiopia’s national church:
And so, hyperskeptics, just who is it that can predict the future on pivotal events 700+ years ahead of time?
Who is it that can take up our sins, sorrows, griefs and sicknesses, giving in exchange his righteousness, his joy and his health? [As my back and lungs bear witness to.]
Who is it that as Lord of life can conquer death itself, rising triumphant from death?
And, onlookers, should we not listen to, read and heed his report, rather than that of those who would mock and dismiss him?
For, as Paul warned our civilisation of supercilious intellectualism and sneering hyperskepticism on Mars Hill in Ad 50:
We have been duly and fully warned.
G’day
Dictionary
“Empire after they reneged on promises to Israel about “the land” in what is called the Balfour Declaration. Now whether we believe this is so or not, it is clear that Great Britain aint great no more and their empire is long lost.”
Is this not in the same vein as what Robertson said about Haiti? Let’s put it this way. In relation to the British Empire, after plundering and looting the nations of this earth, would it make sense to spend the wealth acquired on dependents?
By the time Barbados went for Independence, it was gladly given, but then, an institution called the Commonwealth took a different form. What Israel what? You associate the fall of the British Empire with problems with Israel. What a laugh! As much as you talk, UK is probably one of the strongest economies in the world and not to be underestimated when she calls upon the strength of the same Commonwealth.
You here with bare foolishness. You cutting the suit to the cloth and not to the size of the man.
@Dic
“Much of the onward from the anti-Christian commenters is, sadly, predictably pathetic: distractive, distorting, and denigratory.”
You as a pro-christian comes across the same way.
PS: I see ROK wants me to again prove to him the obvious that he is determined to reject and insist on a slander about in the teeth of many corrections over the course of months. For the record, for the nbenefit of onlookers who may be misled:
a –> The Bible specifically and explicitly forbids the worship of images, and the Sunday School imagery whether of David or of Jesus is not intended to be accurately representational as there is no known accurate portrait — not even in words — of Jesus.
b –> As ROK was told right from the beginning where he raised this silly slander, wise Sunday School teachers and pastors for many years have advised students and congregants of that; as I was right there on East Street Kingston.
c –> Yes, especially decades ago, there has been some — now increasingly useless — Sunday School art that uses a blond, blue eyed illustration of Jesus, but it is obviously inaccurate as that would have made him dramatically outstanding in Galilee or Jerusalem, and we know that to get the right man, the oppressive authorities suborned a traitor who knew him; which immediately tells us he was of ordinary appearance as expected of a Jew of Galilee or Judaea in C1.
d –> Thus, he would have been swarthy, dark haired, most likely dark-eyed, and not exceptionally tall; though this has the caveat that it is clear that David, a known ancestor whose genes would have pervaded the nation over 1,000 years, was sufficiently tall and strong that he could wield Goliath’s sword without taking on a severe disadvantage in combat.
e –> If ROK had bothered to check his facts, he would have seen that from the outset, most church illustrations have clustered, on a brunette [brown to black, sometimes reddish], long-haired, bearded, dark eyed man of lean build. (The C6 illustrations at St Catherine’s monastery [where Codex Sinaiticus was discovered] and Ravenna are archetypal of this. [Even, most “blond” images I have seen are really brown with honey-gold highlights, i.e. they knew that a yellow or platinum blond picture would not work; given the dominant pattern. And of course this is just European art. In China and Japan, Christians have used art that has significantly oriental features for Jesus and the disciples, and in Ethiopia, the images were made to look like the people there. Just as plainly happened in Europe . . . making a mountain of hostility laced objections over an easily flattened out molehill, yet again.])
f –> This generally used illustration also demonstrably holds for the majority of Sunday school art, regardless of the mirror image racist propaganda ROK has read and taken at face value. (He obviously has not taken a reasonable survey of the cross-section of such art.)
g –> The objection is blatantly specious, and is either known to be specious or SHOULD be known to be specious. And, the corrections have long since been made but have been dismissed because they cut across an agenda of animosity that has already led int this blog to calls for arson against churches. Sickening.
PPS: And instead of addressing issues on the merits [onlookers, observe who have been on focus, and who have consistently addressed issues on the merits], predictably we see an attempted turnabout false accusation from ROK. Sad, but by now typical.
@Dic
““the Bible does not predict the future” is a willful deception.”
Is it?
“he scriptures are often written in such a way that it is those of good heart who will see how the course of events or the situation is aligning with the Scriptures ahead of time…”
That is pathetic.
“Indeed, Jesus warned on this phenomenon several times, pointing out how one function of he word of God is to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart, so the teachings will be opaque tot hose disinclined to heed the voice of God.”
And that is proof of what? More nonsense?
“he warned ex-followers that they were in a position where BECAUSE they were hearing the truth from him, but were adhering instead to a deception and rejecting correction, they could not understand and accept what he had to say.”
That is how it works. Another dose of nonsense. That is why you are the way you are, because you cannot accept anything from those adhering to another way… but you want people to accept yours; yet you have no proof beyond appealing to sentiment and emotion and quoting the same bible. When nothing distinguishes you from any other religion save your trappings, how can you be right?
You have stubbornly resisted correction on this matter, over and over again and continue to hemlock your mind on a trail of folly. Talk about false prophets. These men are proving it every day. They are inserting what is not there, and one Zoe always pushing in he/she mouth in every crab hole.
@Dic
“Yes, especially decades ago, there has been some — now increasingly useless — Sunday School art that uses a blond, blue eyed illustration of Jesus, but it is obviously inaccurate…”
Thanks for the admission. Decades ago? Maybe 20 years ago? It is useless now but it was not useless then? So what is it that you are doing now that will become useless decades from now?
“Thus, he would have been swarthy, dark haired, most likely dark-eyed, and not exceptionally tall; though this has the caveat that it is clear that David, a known ancestor whose genes would have pervaded the nation over 1,000 years, was sufficiently tall and strong that he could wield Goliath’s sword without taking on a severe disadvantage in combat.”
Talk about remoteness and far-fetched? We were made to believe that David was a boy when he came up against Goliath. What tall what? You have just written a bunch of tripe with your numerous apologetic innuendos.
I have to say again that we are dealing with a bunch of madmen who will say anything, even what is not there, to make a point. Zoe does it, GP does it and so do you. The three of you should be rename the TBM; the Three Blind Mice.
“If ROK had bothered to check his facts, he would have seen that from the outset, most church illustrations have clustered, on a brunette…”
That’s called splitting hairs.
“Even, most “blond” images I have seen are really brown with honey-gold highlights, i.e. they knew that a yellow or platinum blond picture would not work; given the dominant pattern…”
You are admitting to the deception and that it was calculated. You are also admitting to the charge of willful idolatry. Like the golden calf. They had to find an image.
“In China and Japan, Christians have used art that has significantly oriental features for Jesus and the disciples, and in Ethiopia, the images were made to look like the people there. Just as plainly happened in Europe . . .”
Again, the evidence of Idolatry. You know it is a false image. Then, when you say red-haired as your image and that, “Thus, he would have been swarthy, dark haired, most likely dark-eyed…” that is even more mockery.
That BLACK , bigoted, brassbound, *RACIST* whose befuddled, addled, bumfuzzled, PIN-HEAD brain, is so benighted and IGNORANT, that this empty-headed FOOL, cannot write anything sensible, incapable of any logical, cogent, coherent thought, and exactly true to so such form, has to be visited in the CRAB HOLE, where his asinine fatuous, puerile, mindless cranial cavity resides.
The EVIDENCE of the worldwide Christian FAITH, abounds across many nations, i.e., in Africa, India, Paskistan, and I select these for a specific reason as PROOF, why? Because in these Muslin/Hindu countries, India and Pakistan, whose populace, have been subjected for so long to abject poverty, and the perversity of Hinduism, and Islam, where NO results of any change in their lives, has come from these religions; BUT, in recent decades, large numbers of Muslims and Hindus have experienced a dramatic REALITY of empirical change, in live evangelistic Christian meetings all across these nations, recorded on film, miraculous HEALING of children, men and women, who got NOTHING from their Hindu *gods*, nor from Allah or Mohammed, ONLY, in the NAME of the Lord Jesus Christ, were the crippled, deaf, and other diseases healed, and for the first time, Joy, Peace, and the Gift of eternal Life, received in the hearts and lives of these oppressed people.
What MR. PIN-HEAD, bigoted RACIST, what are you going to do with this EVIDENCE?
AFRICA: Again, like India/Pakistan, Millions in recent decades, all documented on film, and many interviewed, have AMAZING testimonies, about JESUS CHRIST, and *HIS* liberating, TRANSFORMING reality upon their LIVES; what are you going to say about these FACTS? Continue to spew forth your RACIST hatred, void of any logical, cogent, acceptance of this REALITY, which IS also happening across the Middle East, South America et all countries?
I make no apology whatsoever in describing this head of an NGO umbrella organization; Dictionary can be intellectually tame in addressing this BIGOTED, RACIST, distorter, and disguisting, strawmanizing, RED-HERRINGIST.
FAITH, logically, begins in the HEART, first, then folllows the EVIDENCE, of what you first BELIEVED.
Faith DOES not stop, it continues to BELIEVE; it is DYNAMIC, as it grows and grows. It is a JOY to have FAITH, trust, in HIM, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Unbelief, is the opposite of FAITH, ignorance, FOLLY and foolishness, also grows, as evidenced here on BU, in the spiritual BLINDEDNESS of such FOOLS, as MR. PIN-HEAD!
@ All
Shame on you Zoe!! And you are supposed to be an example of what a Christian should be? Sounds more like you coming from the gutter!
Now this behaviour of Zoe above is exactly what I have been trying to point out to all here on BU for the last few months!
Where is the Christ-like example set by our Lord in Zoe’s outbursts! And this is not the FIRST time we have this outlandish behaviour coming from a supposed proponent of Christianity! Where is the supposed love for his fellowman?
All I can say is that his attitude and behaviour leaves a great deal to be desired!
If he was so concerned of someone who was straying, is this the fashion in which he should attempt to enlighten such a person? Or would it be much better to reason and try to calmly show the “unbeliever” the right way? I may be wrong but that is just my opinion.
@ Zoe…
Zoe // March 19, 2010 at 9:13 AM
That BLACK , bigoted, brassbound, *RACIST* whose befuddled, addled, bumfuzzled, PIN-HEAD brain, is so benighted and IGNORANT…..
I think finally we see where your anger lies .
Personally, all the other words might be rightly used in your opinion to describe ROK BUT the use of the word BLACK in this derogatory sense, really leaves a lot to be desired, especially coming from a ‘Christian’.
Now, this might be a slip of the fingers on your part (which I doubt) but it really shows me, that the hatred and contempt that you had for the Haitian people was not just my imagination.
The way you continue to lose your cool and the nasty posts used to denigrate others on this blog shows (IMHO) a person who is struggling with himself personally.
It is one thing for non believers to be attacking but when I see a believer who should know better and especially one who professes to BE better, drop to the same level as those who you despise , it makes me wonder what is your true motive.
And yes, before I am accused of attacking Zoe, it is his nasty attitude and derogatory remarks that I am speaking about…and yes the others have made nasty remarks to him also.
My point, however is simple…who should be setting the example for who to follow here, who is expected to be better here?
Man….that derogatory use of the word BLACK, just rubs me the wrong way. I am waiting to see the Biblical spin Zoe will try to put on it now to justify the use.
@ Zoe…
Are you a black man?
@ Technician
It does not really matter what colour of the rainbow Zoe is! His behaviour is and has always been atrocious for a human being here on BU! Much less as an example of a Christian!
@ Hood….
Actually it does, especially when you decide to label another as a RACIST.
Onlookers:
Even in the face of a specific, major prophesy of about 700+ BC fulfilled in the AD 30 death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus of Nazareth, ROK is trying to say that the Bible does not predict the future.
That speaks volumes on closed-minded willful deceptive denial of the patent truth.
(Including the truth of 2 Peter 3, that just such scoffing mockers would come in these last days, while the gospel goes out to the nations in power by the Spirit according to the Word of God.)
And, all along, we see utterly clearly, how they have been unable to address the key warranting argument for the Christian faith, worldview and call to repentance anchored in just that literal fulfillment of prophecy through Jesus’ salvific death as lamb of God, burial and resurrection as triumphant Lord of life and judge of teh quick and the dead at the Last Day.
So much so that hey must now — in utterly plain desperation to shore up errors of skepticism — try to wrench the scriptures destructively to try to wriggle out of the patent truth they know or should know.
A sad spectacle, but not an unexpected one.
But, from the distractive, distorting and denigratory tactics of the opponents, we have ever stronger reason to take confidence in the solifity of the gospel. So, onlookers, if you have not yet turned from sins in penitent faith to God in teh face of the risen Christ, do so now.
And, to ROK, CH et al, it would be wise for you to stop the madness of self-deception now, and stop the spreading of such deception that could damage others.
Turn to him who is The Way, The Truth and The Life and Light now, before it is too late!
G’day
D
PS: Zoe, in so hostile and easily wrenched a rhetorical environment, you would be better advised to use terms like darkness and deception to highlight what you were trying to say: that willful resort to patent deception and wrenching of the scriptures is darkness not light.
And he actually put the word in capitals to emphasize the derogatory use of it…shame!!
@Dictionary: “Now, from a further statement on the obvious fact that [t]he Bible is not a physics textbook and so cannot reasonably be expected to address operational science matters such as Young’s double slit [experiment] of 1802…
What you, Dictionary, conveniently side step is a very simple question:
If the Bible is such a great predictor, why did it not foresee what is a fundamental truth of the universe?
What the Double Slit Experiment shows empirically is that light (and atomic scale matter) is both particles *and* waves (duality).
…and that we ***cannot*** predict with absolute certainty how it will behave; Quantum Uncertainty.
…and that the Observer influences the Observed.
This realization was quite possibly the greatest insight we simple stupid humans have ever realized.
QED.
@ Technician
To make matters worse, just check out “Mr” Dic(K)’s reply immediately above to Zoe’s atrocious behaviour!
PS: Zoe,’you would be better advised to use terms like darkness and deception to highlight what you were trying to say: that willful resort to patent deception and wrenching of the scriptures is darkness not light.
WTF!!
True to form…
What he was trying to say was put down and posted exactly as he wanted Mr.D and no amount of sugar coating from you can hide the racist and derogatory response from Zoe.
Why dont you address that?
If it had come from the mouth of ROK or CH, we would have seen a 300 word response but as usual you try to hide the nasty ways of Zoe by claiming……’ in so hostile and easily wrenched a rhetorical environment’…..what nonsense is this?
I have seen you ask for an apology for less, will you ask Zoe for the same (I doubt it)?
At least it is there for all to see. I have to keep asking, who are supposed to be the better ones here?
@Dictionary: “And, to ROK, CH et al, it would be wise for you to stop the madness of self-deception now, and stop the spreading of such deception that could damage others.
Encouraging people to question dogma and to think critically for themselves might “damage” them?
OMGs.
BTW, I’m currently reading “A History of God” by Karen Armstrong. *Very* interesting….
Pat
Surely you jest
I am not catching any one’s fever my dear. I try to be solid sound sane and serious.
The real or true anointed one is off coure the Lord Jesus Christ.
The phrase “annointed one” is now sarcastically being used in certain circles about this joker thrust upon the world scene to do the bidding of those who prepared him to usher in the one world government or the new world order.
Clearly you dont believe that there “acts of Antisemitism”, and you probably do not believe that God will curse those that curse his people as enunciated in the Abrahamic Covenant………but we will probably all live to see.
Five years ago I was in Fort Lauderdale at the completion of a short cruise to the Bahamas with my mother, when Katrina passed over Southern FL and left some rain around. We thought nothing of the rain because we are accustomed to having rain storms nearly every afternoon in Central FL.
On that day we watched on tv as Jews were forcibly evicted from thier homes in the Gazza strip by thier own army at the behest of the so called greatest country in the world!
Katrina went out into the Gulf and turned towards LA, AL and other contiguous states. A few days later we saw on our tv’s American people evicted from thier homes by Katrina? Nature? Chance? or maybe…… just maybe, the mighty hand of God.
You may now laugh and scoff and scorn this opinion. But what if it is right?
Is the economic disaster in the greatest country of the world just a coincidence, or is it merely a preview of the prediction in Revelation 17. I dont know of course, because I am not an expert, and I am merely a 3/10 teacher. But I am sharing some of my thoughts with you.
Be good. (Cant tell you keep sweet as I usually tell the ladies because I dont want the tendency to hyperglycaemia to overcome you LOL )
The above is my response to Pat’s response to my post
@ All, I said exactly what I wanted to say, about this PIN-HEADED bigoted RACIST; who has repeatedly on many theads, over many months, attacked Christianity, the WHITE man, Europeans, using the colour of one’s skin, and I have also, on many threads stated, emphatically, THAT, *Colour* has NOTHING to do with SIN, IGNORANCE, etc, etc., as nowhere in God’s Word, the Bible, does Almighty God EVER refer to the ‘colour’ of one’s skin, as the problem, SIN knows no colour.
BUT, because the colour of one’s skin, has being repeatedly used by ROK, Hopi et al as the basis of their vehements attacks, always referring to the WHITE man as the cause of this, that and the other; and the clearly obvious BIGOTED, RACIST animosity expressed time and again by ROK, one cannot but identify the fact that this BIGOTED, intended RACISM, is coming from a BLACK man, doing the same thing that many BIGOTED, RACIST WHITE’s have done, and no doubt, some are still doing; as there are also, BIGOTED, RACIST, BLACKS.!
BTW, the colour of my skin, is irrevelant, if one is a bigoted RACIST, WHITE, it is no different to being a bigoted RACIST BLACK, same ignorance, folly, just happens to be expressed through similiar hatred, one WHITE, the other BLACK, whose actual skin colour did not make the stupid choices, but, the part of them that has NO colour, their souls/spirits.
Jesus called Herod a FOX, others He called a generation of VIPERS, Paul called the Galatians ‘FOOLISH’ and said If any man be IGNORANT, let him be ignorant; and in the Old Testament, some were called DUMB DOGS…
So be it!
BTW, Those of you who want to attack me, on what I said to that man; why don’t you also address the pertinent facts I gave re India/Pakistan/Africa, as it relates to FACTUAL evidence about Christianity and Jesus Christ, which that bigoted racist, blindedly refuses to acknowledge, in his stupor of racist hatred!
@Zoe…
Would you like any more rope?
To make matters worse Zoe now digs a deeper hole…sad!
You are no different to ROK, actually maybe even worse because of your obvious stance as a Christian.
If, as you say, you used the term black in that ridiculous explanation given above, that even this dumb dog (your previous description of me) can see as a poor try by you to justify your nastiness, why then, did you conveniently left out the word BLACK in the following sentences?
How comes the word BLACK no longer begins your new description of ROK?
You must really think you are smart or that everyone else here is a dumb dog but we are NOT, Zoe……… not by a long shot.
Those private emails must be coming fast and furious now..ROFLMAO!!
What Zoe needs now is not more rope but the grease to make sure it doesn’t stick because of friction when the noose draws tight!!!!
@ Zoe…
BTW, the colour of my skin, is irrevelant, if one is a bigoted RACIST….
Self explanatory, if I say so myself.
More grease for that rope?
@All…
If I may please share…
I have always found http://slashdot.org/ to be extremely relevant to where we all find ourselves.
Raw. Dirty. Insightful. Beautiful.
Dear Mr. Dictionary (aka, always and for ever, “the dickhead”),
Please stop patronizing your fellow humans, sir. Please stop being so pathetically condescending to them. Please. Have you no shame, sir? At the end, please, I supplicate, I beg you, please show some basic respect for your fellow siblings on this planet.
It is a given that you are a charlatan clown. That is a given, and that’s where we start. You believe in the Tooth Fairy, which is so terribly, horribly sad. Recently returned from burying the rotting infant dead in Port au Prince, I find you to be an abomination. Terribly sorry about that. I apologise for finding you to be an abomination of a charlatan joke.
Less recently returned from Darfur. I swear on the life of my own children that I carried the dead myself. I buried children in graves that will always be unmarked, and you, sir, are a charlatan joke. You have nothing but the Tooth Fairy and fairy tales to offer. You are a disgrace. You are an idiot of a disgrace. And anyone who takes you even slightly seriously (like your idiot disciple Pastor Zoe, with the CAPITAL LETTERS, another unspeakably ignorant dunce) is to be dismissed out of hand.
I came back to Barbados briefly between Darfur and the Congo.
And every single thing that you have ever had to day, Mr. Dick, breaks my heart with its pointless and heart-breakingly arrogant stupidity. You know nothing, and the world would be a better place if you simply went away.
I would never wish death on anybody, not even the most evil, but I think that you should simply go away, Mr. Dictionary. You are not helpful. You are (and I say this will all due respect) a charlatan dunce. The world would be better if you learned to be quiet.
May your god bless you, and may you always be blessed by whichever invisible guy in the sky you personally choose to believe in.
Monotheology has evolved a bit over the years. This ‘oracle’ approach to ‘proof’ is very useful politically to both camps, monotheism and polytheism.
I come to this planet and I notice that the whole “my god is bigger than your god” thing is playing far to large a part in the process of evolution.
There is a lot of stuff going on. It’s not just us, the human race. We are caught up in a larger phenomena which has not yet fully revealed itself…
As it seems to be effecting the Sun, we might derive that it may be an extra-solar phenomena which is upon us.
Our Home Planet, Mother Earth, is going to need Us as much as we need Her to get past this.
Can we PLEASE stop arguing about “Aten” or “Yaweh” or “Jehova” and all this other crap?
There is children dying. There is too little water. The sky is burning us. The very oceans may even now be in the process of becoming anoxic.
Come on people! What is important? Our life support systems? or Blame casting?
Lets get with the program, eh?
Onlookers:
The above aptly demonstrates that CH, ROK, et al are simply not serious about the truth, but have sought to play the classic game of red herring distractors, led away to distorting strawmen, and then to find any slander or denigration to demonise those they disagree with, in the hope that the inconvenient facts will be forgotten in the poisoned atmosphere they have created.
So, let the record stand:
1] ROK: A slanderer who is unable to date to apologise for slander that has excited calls for arson
2] Hopi: Not only called for arson against churches on a slander but dismissed all whites as bloodsuckers (to deafening silence form exactly those who are now jumping on Zoe gleefully)
3] TH: has been advocating a real case of religiously motivated racism [as has been exposed], and again we see a deafening silence from the champions of he black man.
4] AS: Now descending into routine vile vulgarituy because he is utterly unable to address the incoherence of evolutionary materilaism on the merits and has been unable to even begin to address corrections to his foolish dismissal of the NT as “fiction.”
+++++++
In short, onlookers, we see that the true balance on the merits is aptly shown by the inability of those who are so desperate to find something, anything to vandalise this and other threads that have presented unwelcome truth; the gospel, to address even so simple a thing as a basic summary on the warrant for that gospel
So instead we see the squiring of clouds of irritant digital squid ink, the meanwhile those who have squirted the clouds of ink hope to evade accountability on the merits.
A truly sad spectacle.
but, they have — yet again David — succeeded in vandalising a thread that would otherwise have edified the people of Barbados and the Caribbean.
We have to ask what sort of hostility could so motivate people to act like the above, when they are utterly unable to address key matters on the merits on a fair level playing field.
Absolutely telling.
And plainly, such have no moral or intellectual credibility.
A sad day for our region.
G’day
Dictionary
@All…
Please let the record stand that Dictionary will not speak to my question(s).
@BU.David… Why do you support this?