Submitted by Crusoe (as a comment on the Haiti We Are Sorry blog
You list some good ideas for the structural retransformation of Haiti [Responding to Commenter Dictionary on the Haiti We Are Sorry blog]. Each in of themselves they do not depend on improved education but do depend on improved technical training (farming etc). However, for all, the long-term success of those initiatives individually and collectively leading to a successful Haiti will certainly also depend on improved education, if as we have been informed, the literacy level is so low.
This has two implications.
Firstly, immediately after initial search, rescue, medical, temporary (short and medium term) and security issues have been addressed as priority, the early reformation must include an immediate education programme, for adult and youth, such that the transformation of Haiti can begin with the active participation of her people, not as ‘serfs’ but as active individuals and communities with an understanding of the reasoning behind the methods and the aim of the methods.
I must add, that ‘transformation’ in this context is not meant to refer to bringing Haiti to the same philosophical outlook as anyone other specific group. In this context it is meant to refer to bringing Haiti to a level of self-capability and self-determination. Now, to expect say a three or four year ‘crash course’ in education and technical skills may seem either impossible or unrealistic, but unfortunately, if this is not done as one of the foundations of the rebuilding (in the context of not only structural, but as a nation of people), than all else may eventually prove futile.
This is obviously along the lines of the old phrase of teaching a man to fish instead of giving him the fish. Merely putting up structures, farms etc may certainly alleviate some misery, but while in the short term foreign contractors etc may gain much from the aid given for this purpose, the long-term goal should be to have Haitians and not only elite, but the everyday Haitian, benefit from money flows and thus create an independent people and a vibrant economy.
It is my view therefore Caricom leaders, should address the education of Haiti, as a priority, as much a priority as any other redevelopment effort.
To reinforce a point, the initial effort must not only be to set up an improved schooling system, but implement as an interim measure, an ’emergency education programme’, with the help of international authorities and the Haitian authorities. If one wants a long-term Haiti, this is essential.
We must give thanks yet again, that Errol Barrow saw the necessity of education as a developmental tool. And, we must forever resist ANY attempts to take free education from Barbadians. Indeed, those of us who wish for an improved world, must seek the furtherance of a sound even if basic education, for all peoples, as a necessity for development.
1,421 responses to “The Reconstruction And Transformation Of Haiti: A Global-Moral Imperative”
Onlookers:
More irrelevancies and innuendos that only prove that those who speak like that are incapable of addressing the main matters on the merits cogently on the basis of their systems of thought; whether a serious proposal for Haiti, or on what has plainly been a long sustained campaign based on misinformation and — frankly but evidently and plainly — all too often, malice, to discredit the historic, biblically anchored Christian faith.
(Precisely as the C1 teachings in Rom 1 and 2 Peter 3 pointed out so long ago now.)
On proposals for Haiti, I think it is fair to challenge you the onlooker to think seriously about how Caricom, or how our region’s churches, or the private sector organizations, or the construction industry [I think here about the need to think innovatively and sustainably as has been suggested at length above, starting with Guadua and bamboo bahareque as well as the Moladi and Hebel type uses of aerated concrete in fast-build modular construction], or the trade unions, or the not for profit communities can help make a difference in Haiti where it counts, long term.
I am of the convinced — and I believe well-founded [and CH, kindly note just how I am using my personal blog] — opinion that a schools network is well within our reach as a region and that such a network of schools that integrates community upliftment and different levels of education in a lifetime process, is potentially positively transformative.
Sufficiently so that I am following up with the initial proposal as just linked. 9And not just in the for-Haiti form.)
As to the dismissive notion above that Newton and Einstein can be summed up in a single equation each, CH must know better than that: Newton — who indeed investigated alchemical issues in a time when that was still scientifically credible (they did not know they needed to be six or eight orders of magnitude up on atomic scale energy to transmute elements, i.e nuclear not chemical transformations . . . and indeed mercury was transmuted into gold decades ago, by nuclear bombardment) — is known for his Principia, his Optics, for currency reform, and for his commentaries on various subjects (including a lot on the Bible). Newton co-invented calculus along the way. Einstein made major contributions to many domains of modern science, indeed his anne mirabilis, 1905, saw four key papers to Annalen der Physik that in some opinions were each worth a Nobel Prize. (And BTW, he did NOT win the Nobel prize — at least officially — for Relativity, the work on e.g. Brownian motion [which finally established the reality of atoms and the statistical mechanical picture of he micro-world] and the photoelectric effect were more easily recognised at the time.) Even for relativity, his contributions were in two great phases, first special then a decade later general.
What instead CH has highlighted is that each is HEADLINED by the indicated equations. But popularisation and substance are two very different things.
In the face of destructive and often uncivil rhetoric designed to discredit the historic Christian faith that has long been posted here at BU, I and others have provided warranting substance; and it is fair to note that the substance provided distills what one would otherwise have to go far and wide to find in one place. (As we know the hard way — that is how we first learned it: by going far and wide, over the span of literally decades; and collecting the personal libraries to prove it, too.)
Note, onlookers, how, for months, thee has been no serious response on the merits, but instead a clear oft-repeated pattern of distraction, distortion, demonisation and dismisssal [what I have come to label the trifecta fallacy: red herrings, led out to slander-soaked strawmen, ignited through ad hominem attacks designed to cloud, confuse, polarise and poison the atmosphere].– now rising to clear attempts to outright intimidate — that goes to show, strongly, where the true balance is on the merits.
And as to why it is I have responded here at BU, why that is plain enough: that is where the problem is.
I have salved the sore where it is, not where it is not.
And it is plainly a sore in sore need of salving.
G’day
Dictionary
PS: I should add that to go up those six or eight orders of magnitude, we needed to have electricity and electrification, which in turn depended for its full systematisation on the creation of a discipline we now know as Physics. Newton is one of the founding pioneers of that discipline, and electricity was worked out to the required levels 100 – 150+ years after his work. (It is no accident that the main centres of innovation were located close to where major hydro-works provided cheap, abundant — and renewable! — electricity.) I further suspect that without the major hydro-works of the 1930’s – 40’s, the power grids to support the rise of nuclear technologies would not have been there for decades more. [Even Germany was using the hydro-works of Norway in its attempts to make heavy water etc.]
PPS: TH of course commits a neat piece of turnabout rhetoric: those who focus on correction of ill-founded opinions and behaviours that cannot stand the light of day are maliciously accused of personal attacks. All the while, those who indulge in such attacks routinely and as their main response when challenged on the issues, get a pass. In TH’s own case, his position cannot stand the basic scrutiny of the foundational book, as has been publicly exposed since 1834, shortly after its publication; and the link is to a comment of Mar 17, where after a week or so there has been no cogent response, no prizes for guessing why. That just linked post includes the letter of repudiation by the very professor cited as authenticating the book. Going beyond that, he has yet to address the “hostile neutrality” in “premortal” existence teaching and its consequential claims that such spirits when incarnated as humans were given dark skins as a mark of that shame; leading to the restriction of dark skinned people form receiving access to the ritual steps needed to achieve godhood over one’s own planet, until under pressure from the IRS [threatened loss of tax exempt status], the NAACP, and even international forces within their system — e.g. the challenge of the very mixed race culture of Brazil — they received a new revelation in 1978 that allowed an escape. (And yes, Mormonism is plainly a type of polytheism. TH has had to date no cogent response to the teachings of say Isaiah 40 – 45 on that subject: there is — and always will be — but one God. As indeed the logic of the necessary being behind our unified yet diverse contingent cosmos strongly indicates as well. [In short, for those who made such dismissive allegations, this is not a mere matter of proof texting: I am here in brief referring to many issues on cosmological questions both philosophical and scientific, as well as the vexed problem of the one and the many which I have argued elsewhere, can only really be answered in the complex unity view of God found in say Trinitarian creational, redemptive monotheism, which is implicit in the OT, and drawn out in the NT, long before it found summary statements in the classical, Biblically anchored — yes, that can be shown in details — creeds. (And the difficulty of figuring out and tracing all that this entails from this compressed remark exposes the fallacy in the “concise talking points” talking point TH made above. There is a reason why university libraries groan with tens of thousands of serious and literally as well as substantially weighty books, for which 400 – 1,000 pp is a common length!])
David, sorry on a messed up address.
@ David/ BU family
As can be seen from my post as far back as March 17 in the closed thread on “Hermeneutics/Exegesis”, which I have copied here below for all to see, I in essence, “threw in the towel” as far as the discussion with the “BU trinity” is concerned. Now why is this man, Dictionary, continuing to hound and badger me(as evidenced by his most recent post of today, March 23 above) with his nauseating comments taken from writings of people who have for so long now been proved over and over again to be charlatans. I have resisted the urge to even comment on such writings as I know full well that all this tripe has been exposed for the drivel that it all is. Yet he persists in trying to goad me in replying to his “bilgy” crap. I am wondering if his behaviour is not a bit psychopathic.
Post of March 17 from the Hermeneutics/Exegesis thread :-
the hood // March 17, 2010 at 12:18 PM
@ The “BU trinity”
Maybe we should rename you three the “Bajan Inquisition” after the style of the Spanish Inquisition!
It seems that anyone having a different opinion to either of you three are instantly condemned to be “hung, drawn & quartered”! Or rather, condemned to the pits of hell!
So what would the “bajan inquisition” have me do?
OK guys, you are so right with whatever you say. Because you are so learned and so lettered. It was very dumb of me to put up any defense for my beliefs when all I had to do was “kowtow” to the “superior” knowledge and “enlightenment” of the “BU trinity”. So continue freely with your “enlightenment” of the masses and just leave me here as a dumb, ignorant fool (as was so eloquently pointed out previously) to wallow in my “unbiblical” understandings. OK? Yeah, yeah cheers for the “BU trinity” who know it all! Amen!
I again indicated in a subsequent post in this thread, copied below, that I was not interested in having any further discourse/debate on the topic.
the hood // March 21, 2010 at 7:18 PM
@ Dictionary
You Said……………. “PS: TH, enough has been said and pointed to to show that you have no case on the merits.”
******************************************************************
I am sorry to see that you are not quite liberated from the “classical theism” understanding as perpetuated by the Greek philosophers. You see you guys would like to tell us what we believe and what our doctrines are without bothering to try to find out what we really believe and what our doctrines really are! Well, my heart is full of pity for people like you, Zoe and GP because of your blatant spiritual blindness no doubt fully entrenched in you by the “craftiness of men”. Please understand that I bear neither of you any ill will or unkind thoughts but I would like to state here I am not interested in what either of you say or think as regards the LDS Church as I know full well that you are thoroughly misled and misinformed as to what we really believe or teach or what our doctrine really is. As a result I have no further interest in responding to or entertaining any discourse either of you may wish to have on the topic. I want you to further understand that I am not interested in and never was trying to proselytize to you or anyone else here on BU. All I was trying to do was to refute the absolute garbage that you three were trying to put forward here in this forum as if it was gospel truth! Let it be clear I have absolutely no problem with you, Zoe or GP inasfar as you are human beings, and very well educated ones at that, my problem is with the tripe that you try to pass off here as absolute!!
Have a good day and may God’s blessings continue to be showered upon you.
My question is, does he not understand the everyday written English language or do I have to resort to profanity or uncouth behaviour like his sidekick Zoe in order to get my point across that I no longer wish to continue the discussion.
I rest my case!
Further to my above comments, and as Mr. ROK so ably pointed out, I am not trying to prove or disprove anything. I have nothing to so prove or disprove. The greatest thing that I have is my faith in what I believe and the influence of God, the Holy Spirit in my life and the love that God, the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ have for us all.
Modern day Pagan polytheists are DEAD alive, right here on BU, i.e., TH, Rok, BT, Hopi et al.
The Problems of Astrology:
“The claims that astrologists have made have drawn severe criticism from the scientific community. In September, 1975, 186 prominent American scientists, along with 18 Nobel Prize winners, spoke out agaist “the pretentious claims of astrological charlatans,” saying, among other things, that there is no scientific basis whatsoever for the assumption that the stars foretell events and infulence lives.”
Of course, thousands of years before, Almighty God in His Word, the Bible, pronounced:
“You are wearied with your many counsels; let now the *astrologers*, those who prophesy by the stars, those who predict by the new moons, stand up and save you from what will come upon you. Behold, they have become like STUBBLE, fire burns them, they CANNOT deliver themselves from the power of the flames…there is none to save you” (isaiah 47: 13-15, NASB). emphasis added.
Other warnings can be found in such verses as Jeremiah 10:2: “Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of Heaven; for the heathen
are dismayed at them.”
The Scriptures make it clear that any type of astrological practice is severely condemned by God, for it attempts to understand the future through OCCULTIC means, rather than through Almighty God’s divinely inspired Word. the fatalistic approach of astrology, which says our lives are determined by the stars, is contradicted by Scripture, which holds us responsible for our destiny. Astrology and Christianity are simply incompatible.
What is the Occult?
The word ‘occult’ comes from the Latin word “occultus” and it carries the idea of things hidden, secret and mysterious.
The Occult deals with the supernatural, and, specifically, with Demonic forces.
Under the designation Occult, the following are at least some of the items: Witchcraft, Magic, Palm reading, Fortune Telling, Ouija Boads, Tarot Cards, Satanism, Spiritism, and the use of Crystal Balls.
There is a reality in the Occultic experience, which attracts many people to it. BUT, this reality is one that Satan masquerades over people, with his Demonic deceptions, and LIES. All of us desire some sort of ultimate answers for life’s basic questions. The astrologist will chart you future. The Ouija board promises you direction, and the medium talking to the so-called spirit of your dead relative, a Demon spirit, posing as your departed relative, informs you that things are fine in the next world.
Since these Occultic practices do reveal some amazing things, the practitioner is lulled into thinking that he/she has experienced ultimate reality, and no longer needs to continue his search for truth. The spiritual vacuum is then filled by means of a spiritual ‘experience’ not with God, but often from the very PIT of HELL.!
The Bible, the Word of Almighty God categorically denounces any and all occultic practices:
“When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall NOT learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. There shall NOT be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses DIVINATION, one who practices WITCHCRAFT, or one who interprets Omens, or a Sorcerer, or one who cast a spell, or a MEDIUM, or a SPIRITUALIST, or one who calls upon the dead. For whoever does these things is DETESTABLE to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the LORD your GOD will drive them out before you…For those nations (Pagans) which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so.” (Deuteronomy 18: 9-14, NASB). emphasis added.
In the same manner, the New Testament condemns such workings (Galatians 5:20). In the city of Ephesus, many who were practicing in the Occult became believers in Jesus Christ, and renounced their Occultic practices. “Many also of those who practiced magic brought their books and together began burning them in the sight of all…” (Acts 19:19 NASB). emphasis added.
I personally know of a case, where a man who practiced the occult, came to Jesus repenting of his sins, and when a Pastor friend of mine went with this man to burn his occult books, they poured gasoline on them, lit a fire, and the gasoline would NOT ignite. Only when the name of Jesus, and His precious atoning blood, was invoked, did the gasoline ignite, and the books burned up. This man, then enjoyed such freedom and liberty in Christ, from his former occult practices.
@ ac// March 23, 2010 at 1:55 AM
You asked:- IS the STAR Of David A reference to a astrological Sign?
***************************************************************
ac, I really could not even begin to address this question as I am not all that familiar with Astrology/Zodiac signs. However it seems that “Mr.” Zoe may be able to throw some light on the subject. It looks like he knows all about it as he knows about everything else under the sun! Check with him. 🙂
ARTICLE 19
For immediate release – 23 March 2010
Indonesia: Human Rights NGOs Argue “Defamation of Religions” Law Contravenes Freedom of Expression, Freedom of Religion and Equality In Legal Brief to Constitutional Court
Indonesia’s laws prohibiting and punishing the “abuse or defamation of religions” are contrary to international human rights law, according to the amicus curiae brief submitted by ARTICLE 19, Amnesty International, the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies and the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights to the Indonesian Constitutional Court on 11 March 2010.
The organisations submitted the brief to the Indonesian Constitutional Court in the judicial review of Law Number 1/PNPS/1965 concerning the prevention of religious abuse and/or defamation. The 1965 law prohibits “interpretation and activities are in deviation of the basic teachings” of “a religion adhered to in Indonesia”, which includes some faiths with followers in the country but not others. The Indonesian Criminal Code imposes a five year prison sentence on anyone who publicly expresses views or engages in actions which are considered “abuse or defamation” of these religions.
In the opinion of the organisations, the laws violate Indonesia’s international human rights obligations to respect and protect freedom of expression, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, and the right to equality. The organisations emphasise that the laws are fundamentally incompatible with the authoritative interpretation of international human rights law by international and regional human rights bodies and mechanisms, including the UN Special Rapporteurs on freedom of opinion and expression and on freedom of religion or belief. The organisations further argue that the laws go against regional human rights standards and practices.
The organisations have submitted the brief in the hope that the Constitutional Court will rescind Indonesia’s defamation laws as a first step towards ensuring full adherence to Indonesia’s international legal obligations, including respect for and protection of the human rights to freedom of religion or belief and freedom of expression, and ending discriminatory policies and practices against certain minority faiths.
Nigeria:
As many as 500 hundred Christians, mostly women and children were slaughtered in Dogo Nashaua, Nigeria.
India:
Persecution of Christians in India continued at the hands of Hindu extremists. Christians in India have been systematically targeted in a vicious hate campaign, with hundreds of homes burned and many believers killed.
Hindu extremists marched ruthlessly from village to village, intent on destruction and murder. In the ensuing months, 315 Christian villages were destroyed, with 4, 640 homes burnt to the ground. Some 252 Churches and schools were demolished. Approximately 120 people were murdered, including 7 Pastors. And 54,000 people were forced to flee their homes in fear of their lives.
And, right here on BU, very recently, a call went out from HOPI, to burn all Christian Churches in B’dos, and not one of the *Leftists* so-called civic minded commenters on BU, said a word against such a call for Arson and murder! If my memory serves me correctly, emphasis by Hopi was placed on the word BLACKS, to burn all Christian Churches!
Not a word of condemnation came from this forum, apart from Dictionary and myself. Yet, when I identified, a certain black, racist, whose agenda, is clearly against Christianity, perceived by him et al to be the white man’s religion, all hell broke loose against me!
Seal of Solomon/The Star of David.
In witchcraft circles the symbol the SIX POINTED STAR is known as the Hexagram. It represents black magic. The occultic term to place a “hex” or a curse on some one, comes from this symbol.
Although this symbol is found on the Jewish flag, on the inside of Jewish Synogogues, and even inside some so-called Christian Churches, it is not unique to Jews.
The Hexagram is a very ancient Oriental Occult symbol. It has beeb found in India in the cave of Elephata, who is just one of the many Hindu gods. Many other Hindu shrines and many Buddhist Shrines also bear this symbol accompanying the image of the gods. It should be bourne in mind that the Bible reveals that the gods of the heathen are really demons (1 Cor. 10: 19-20).
The Hexagram has long been used as a magic talisman or amulet, it was for this reason, that the ancient Jews, stupidly adopted it. It was believed that it would extinguish fire, prevent wounds in a conflict, and perform many other wonders. The Jews, therefore, called it the Shield of David in reference to the protection which it was to supposedly give its possessors. None of this, however, has any Biblical basis whatsoever, and obviously entered into the Jews, while in a state of idolatrous disobedience.
It is not a known fact if King Solomon was indeed involved in witchcraft, as witches claim, but the Bible does reveal that he backslid and got himself involved in worshipping heathen gods ( i.e., demons) of his many heathen wives ( 1 Kings 11: 1-11). The Jews themselves backslid many times from their God, Yahweh, and also worshipped false gods ( or demons), and practiced witchcraft and many other occult arts (one example is 2 Kings 17: 9-18)., for which they payed a terrible price, in disperson and captivity, twice, as prophecied in the Old Testament. This explains their use of the Hexagram as their national and religious symbol.
@Zoe.
How is it the wisemen used the direction of the STAR to find the baby Jesus
@HOOD
OK back to sports. Since you are unable to participate in your pasttime activities . I guess you do a lot of reading.What type of books do you prefer.I like to read
@TECHIE
I noticed you did not mention fishing on the ice . I think it is called Fly fishing
@ROK
Hi Rok. How you doing!
@ David @ BU
Will Zoe be allowed to derail this thread again?
@ac
I am good. I see you enjoying the sports.
@ ac
I read a lot of John Grisham and James Patterson, things mostly along the detective/thriller lines.
@ROK
Yeah mon! and having zoe explain astrology from a biblical point of view. Did you read his post on The Star of DAvid. Awaiting his reponse to THE Star of Bethlehem.
Hey to you ROKie, you cool down a bit yet?
@Hood
I guess you have seen some of the movies if not all based on John Grisham novels. I like the Rainmaker.
I forgot to tell you i like writing too.
@ ac
Actually no. I am not really a movie person. Although I used to do pro photography at one time.
@ac
I struggle to read Zoe. I simply eyeballed a few sentences and knew the direction he was headed. That was that. I really don’t have time for that ilk.
@the hood
I am always and was always cool. I was simply poking some fun at them but they not familiar enough with the territory. They are fundamentalists. GP said he is very happy and proud to be called a fundamentalist; so you understand what I mean.
@Rok
O.K.
@hood
Do you know that John grisham wanted to be a baseball player?
@ ac, The Star in Almighty God’s sky, that the wisemen used to direct them to baby Jesus, had no connection whatsoever to the Hexagram, the six-pointed symbol of Occultism, that came to be known as the Seal of Solomon/Star of David.
@Zoe
The fact is that astrology has been used to give good news as well as bad. It is evident in the fact that A STAR was the sign used to herald the birth of Jesus according to bible teachings.It is apparent that the STAR was used as apoint of direction for the wisemen. IF it is good for God then it is also good for man .God is our example of what’s right or wrong.
@ ROK
Hi Rok, I wonder if ac realises just what she is getting into with Zoe and this astrology business? 🙂
@ ac, You had best be very careful that you don’t get condemned to the pits of hell by Zoe with this astrology talk that you taking to him! 🙂
@ ac, You are confusing Astrology, with Astronomy.
Astrology is to be distinguished from the science of Astronomy; Astronomy is the scientific study of celestial bodies, a science discipline.
Wheras, Astrology is the ancient occultic art that claims to discover and interpret the influence of stars and planets on persons or events; which is severely condemned by God in His Word.(Deut. 4;19; 17: 2-5; 11 kings 17: 16).
Astronomy, as a scientific disciple, seeks information about the heavenly bodies, Stars,Planets, and so on, and the laws governing their movements; while Astrology, deals with alleged meaning in the relationship of Stars Planets , to people and events on earth, expressed in the so-called Horoscope.
The STAR in God’s heavenly firmament, the sky, was simply used in its position at that time, by the wisemen through the Lord, to guide them to where baby Jesus was; and this was good, BUT, it was NOT using the perverted occult art of ‘Astrology’ as you seem to think.
@ac
“@ ac, You are confusing Astrology, with Astronomy.”
Don’t let that madman fool you. You were clearly on the topic of astrology; which is, the stars, their positions and their earthly or man-made meanings.
@the hood
As they say in Bajan parlance; your words did not drop to the ground.
@ROK
I knew what would happen through the influence of the Holy Spirit, ROKie. 🙂
But ROKie, I was taught at school 40/50 years ago that the stars and the moon (other planets as well?) had great influence on the earth (re ocean tides,rain etc). So now we being taught otherwise?
Astronomy, as a scientific discipline, is used in schools to teach the influence in the ocean, tides, etc, etc., this is NOT the same thing as Astrology, which is rooted in the world of Occultism, one of Satan’s craft of spiritual deception.
How astrologers justify their practice is explained by Michael van buskirk:
“One’s future can be forecast, allegedly, because astrology asserts the unity of all things. This is the belief that the Whole (or all of the universe put together) is in some way the same thing as the Part (or the individual component or man), or that the Part is a smaller reflection of the Whole (macrocosmic/microcosmic model). The position of the plantes (the macro) influences and produces a corresponding reaction in man (the micro). This makes man a *pawn* in the cosmos with his life and actions pre-determined and unalterable (Michael Van Burskirk, Astrology: revival in the Cosmic Garden, 1976, p.6).
Noorbergen concludes, “To believe in astrology, you must support the philosophy that you are either a “born loser” or a “born winner.” The stars, we are being told, do not merely forecast the course of our lives, but they also cause the events to take place. They both impel and compel…” (Renee Noorbergen, The Soul Hustlers, 1976, pp. 178, 179).
The Problems of Astrology, as referenced earlier,
‘The claims that astrologists have made have drawn the severe criticism from the scientific community. In September, 1975, 186 prominent American scientists, along with 18 Nobel Prize winners, spoke out against ‘the pretentious claims of astrological charlatans,” saying, among other things, that there is NO scientific basis whatsoever for the assumption that the stars foretell events and influence lives.”
One of the many scientific arguments against astrology, is stated this way.
No Scientific Verification.
“Probably the most damaging criticism that can be leveled at astrological prediction, is the fact that its scientific value is NIL. Paul Couderc, Astronomer at the Paris Observatory, concluded after examining the horoscopes of 2, 817 musicians:
“The position of the sun has ABSOLUTELY no musical significance. The musicians are born throughout the entire year on a chance basis. No sign of the zodiac or fraction of a sign favors or does not favor them.”
“We conclude: The assets of scientific astrology are equal to ZERO, as in the case with commercialized astrology. This is perhaps unfortunate, as it is a fact (Paul Couferc, L’Astrologie, “Que Sais-je” 508; 3rd ed.: Paris: Presses Universitaires de France, 1961, pp. 86-89, cited by John Warwick Montgomery, Principalitues and Powers, p. 106).
Who really are the mad-men? Clearly, those who cannot distinguish *darkness* from *light* spiritually, and, thus, continue to butt around in all kinds of spiritual deception and fraud, such as the so-called astrological predictions of the Horoscope, etc, etc, not only refuted by the science of Astronomy, but, severely condemned by Almighty God, our Creator of Heaven and Earth, Who forbids, such practices.
@ Zoe….
What have you contributed to this thread..”The reconstruction of Haiti….
other than to say voodoo made it happen?
Stupse!!
Explain to the class why God’s chosen people has the occult symbol on their flag.
@Zoe.
Having read your comment.The STAR OF BETHLEM was an astrological compass which God used to direct the wisemen.That is my understanding of your post. Again if God thought it was good to use a Star as a forecast or direction for people to follow and God knows what right or wrong .
Question : Why can’t man use his example in a positive way.Unless God was a part of the occult you are preaching against.
@HOOD
How was your day. Did you do anthing interesting.
Hi Rok.
I can stand up to the best of them.How was your day
For some reason i think you are a Virgo.
@ac
Well here comes trouble. There is said to be a correlation between the blessing of Jacob on his 12 sons and the signs of the Zodiac. Virgo is said to have the blessings of Issachar; “a strong ass couching down between two burdens.”
I am not like that at all. Sounds more like Zoe. I am Aries rules by Mars, the God of War.
By the way, anybody into Chinese astrology?
@Rok
That is a fiery sign and not easy to be misled by anyone.now i know why you have such strong .You have very good leadership skills.Your star definetly shines bright. People appreciate your advice.Zoe is a Taurus Bullheaded ,determined , and it is only what he thinks that matters doesn’t easily gives a benefit of doubt to anyone.Lives in a world that he has conjured in his mind that it is the only way to do things.
@Technician
I think Zoe is doing research on your question.
@ Technician
You told Zoe:- “Explain to the class why God’s chosen people has the occult symbol on their flag.”
Techie, man what you gone and do now? You like you make that man hang himself.
Ah well you know the saying………….Give a man enough rope and he will eventually hang himself.
@ROK
Am I reading right? Did you mean Chinese astrology or did you mean to say Christian Chinese astrology? 🙂
It wasn’t me who opened this can of worms.
I am going by what Zoe posted.
This is what he said..’ Zoe // March 23, 2010 at 5:24 PM
Seal of Solomon/The Star of David.
In witchcraft circles the symbol the SIX POINTED STAR is known as the Hexagram. It represents black magic. The occultic term to place a “hex” or a curse on some one, comes from this symbol.
Although this symbol is found on the Jewish flag, on the inside of Jewish Synogogues, and even inside some so-called Christian Churches, it is not unique to Jews.
The Hexagram is a very ancient Oriental Occult symbol. It has beeb found in India in the cave of Elephata, who is just one of the many Hindu gods. Many other Hindu shrines and many Buddhist Shrines also bear this symbol accompanying the image of the gods. It should be bourne in mind that the Bible reveals that the gods of the heathen are really demons (1 Cor. 10: 19-20).
The Hexagram has long been used as a magic talisman or amulet, it was for this reason, that the ancient Jews, stupidly adopted it. It was believed that it would extinguish fire, prevent wounds in a conflict, and perform many other wonders. The Jews, therefore, called it the Shield of David in reference to the protection which it was to supposedly give its possessors. None of this, however, has any Biblical basis whatsoever, and obviously entered into the Jews, while in a state of idolatrous disobedience.’
I guess by Zoe’s logic, the Jews are STILL in a state of idolatrous disobedience, since they wear this symbol with great pride (in some cases arrogance).
These are the same people he defends to the death, they do nothing wrong, are the chosen etc.
Here is some more rope Zoe…and lots of grease.
@ ac, If you read my post carefully, there is no way you could conclude, that “…the STAR OF BETHLEHEM was an astrological compass which God used to direct the wise men. that is my understanding of your post.”
First, there is NO such reference in God’s Word, to any ‘Star of Bethlehem’ which you have obviously fabricated, in keeping with your inclination of astrology, which IS severly condemned by Almighty God.
Hear His Word, again on such Astrological practices.
“Stand now with your enchantments And the multitude of your SORCERIES, In which you have labored from your youth- Perhaps you will be able to profit, Perhaps you will prevail. You are wearied in the multitude of your counsels; Let now the *Astrologers* like the *stargazers* And the monthly *prognosticators* Stand up and save you From what shall come upon you. Behold, they shall be as STUBBLE, The fire shall burn them; They shall not deliver themselves From the power of the flame; It shall not be a coal to be warmed by, Nor a fire to sit before! Thus shall they be to you, With whom you have labored, your merchants from your youth; They shall wander each one to his quarter. NO one shall save YOU.” (Isaiah 47: 12-15) emphasis added.
Note: The monthly Prognosticators divided the heavens into segments to study the movements of stars and planets so as to predict Earth’s events. Present-day astrologers, and Zodiacal maps, Horoscopes, derive from this ancient Occultic practice, which IS condemned by God.
ac, If you still fail to see and understand the emphatic condemnation by Almighty God on such demonic activity and practice, on astrology, and its adherents, blindly refusing to see, that whatever star it was that the wisemen saw re Jesus’ birth place in Bethlehem, was NOT God using any astrological sign in the heavens, as you erroneously think, then that is your choice, to continue with your Zodiacal, horoscope deception, as many today believe.
Astrolgy denies us the choice that Almighty God has given to each one, and therefore must be rejected for what it is, a scham, fooling multitudes with lies about their birth date, an utterly fatalistic LIE. God’s Word, the Bible, shows us a much better way of looking into the future, secured and paid for in Christ’s Death and Resurrection, if we Repent, we can know Him, personally, who is “…the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE…” (John 14:6).
Onlookers…
Is it me or is Zoe sidestepping the question?
@ Zoe…
Saying I don’t know will not kill you. It will just show you are human after all.
Passed by:
I was off net for a week, elsewhere.
I find it amusing to see T trying to lash Zoe for failign to contribute tot he thread’s focal topic. After nigh on 1400 posts I have given up as the sole substantial contribution is routinely ignored . Zoe is rebutting side tracks, misinformation and the like. Which helps what is actually going on.
And, BTW, Zoe is right: Astronomy and Astrophysics study the physical heavens, and do so scientifically. Astrology is occultic divination and related superstition based on claimed locations of planets and the sun around the Zodiac. [There is a little thing on precession of he equinoxes — such as last week’s.]
TH is painting a strawman, as he is the one whose LDS religion pretends to be Biblically based, but is in fact rooted in a plagiarised novel and the notion of good Mormons becoming gods of new stars with planets; and with blacks being barred from the rituals leading to new godhood up till a convenient “revelation” in June 1978 when the LDS church was under serious pressure, including from the US IRS. As was long since pointed out, a read of Isa 40 – 46 will suffice to show that the Biblical religion is premised on there being ONE God. Greeks were of course polytheists, even the philosophers, until the gospel got to them that is: read Ac 17 etc. So TH is simply spewing misinformation, right from git-go.
This thread is now all but useless, save to further prove to those looking on the breakdown of basic intelligence that happens when we turn our backs on God, as Rom 1 warns against.
G’day
D
PS: The Schools of Hope proposal, again. Also, Industrial Civilisation 2.0: open source, post scarcity resilient community economics. Just a reminder of what is actually seriously on the table. (And the Haitians etc I saw are interested and think the basic ideas are feasible, but cutting across the usual quick-fix hurry- hurry just- patch- it- and- go mentality.)
PS: Is 45:18 – 23:
In short the “it was the Greeks” gambit fails, TH. (So does the promotion to god of my own planet game — you may believe that if you want, but please don’t read it into the Hebraic and Christian Scriptures.)
@ D..
You said…’I find it amusing to see T trying to lash Zoe for failign to contribute tot he thread’s focal topic. After nigh on 1400 posts I have given up as the sole substantial contribution is routinely ignored . Zoe is rebutting side tracks, misinformation and the like. Which helps what is actually going on.
You are such a hypocrite!!
I am doing to Zoe what you have been doing to everyone else.
What has he contributed to the title of this thread?
Name one(1) idea that Zoe has given concerning the reconstruction of Haiti…just show me one !!
You have to find it amusing because Zoe is a JOKE!!
The ignorance on this thread is most revealing
Listen to this bull!
“I guess by Zoe’s logic, the Jews are STILL in a state of idolatrous disobedience, since they wear this symbol with great pride (in some cases arrogance).”
It is not logic at all. Everyone knows that the majority of Jews are still idolatrous. They have been so since their sojourn in Egypt. God was able to remove them from Egypt but he has never been able to remove fro the Jews what they have learned in Egypt and from the world system in thier exile.
“These are the same people he defends to the death, they do nothing wrong, are the chosen etc.
Here is some more rope Zoe…and lots of grease.”
I dont believe that anyone has said that the Jews are perfect and do nothing wrong. Is Zoe wrobg because he choses to side with the Jews as the Scripture teaches? The Bible predicted that all the nations would one day rage against God, his people and his Christ. It is now happening before our very eyes. All who take a Biblicical view or perspective will be despised, and by folk who dont know the Bible.
BU is very entertaining
Like moths to the flame they come….welcome to BU Sue…yes, it is a minute version of the world we live in, where, here, everyone is entitled to their own opinion….as you have just demonstrated.
Hope your stay is a long one as things can get dicey at times.
@Tehnician
Hi . How are you doing ?
Look Zoe
Remember Joseph dream of The Sun ,the moon and the eleven Stars and interpretation was asrological.
Hear Almighty God from His Word, to Israel.
“For Zion’s sake will I NOT hold My peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will NOT rest, until her righteousness goes forth as brightness, and her SALVATION as a lamp that burns.”
“I have set watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem, who shall never hold their peace day or night. You who make mention of the LORD, do NOT be silent, and give Him no rest, till He establishes, and till He makes Jerusalem, a praise in the earth.” (Isaiah 62: 1, 6-7) emphasis added.
Hear Almighty God, again:
“And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of JERUSALEM, the Spirit of grace and supplication, so that THEY WILL LOOK ON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED; and they will mourn for HIM, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over HIM, like the bitter weeping over a first-born.” (Zechhariah 12:10) emphasis added.
No amount of vile, Satanic hatred against the Jews and their God-given land, the state of Israel, as has been openly expressed by numerous Arab Islamic leaders for hundreds and hundreds of years can EVER, EVER, stop Almighty God’s sworn, irrevocable, unconditional Covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that *HE* will fulfill His Covenant promises to them, and their descendants, the Jews.
Here are a few reminders from the hate filled Islamists, beginning with Mohammad.
“The Resurrection of the dead will not come until the Muslims will WAR with the JEWS and the Muslims will KILL them…the trees and rocks will say, ‘O Muslim, here is a Jew behind me, come and KILL him’ ”
The Prophet Mohammad, (from the Hadith, which records the acts and sayings of Mohammad). emphasis added.
“The power struggle between Israel and the Arabs is a long-term historical trial. Victory or defeat are for US questions of EXISTENCE or ANNIHILATION, the outcome of an IRRECONCILABLE *HATRED*.”
(Al Riyadh Saud, Founder of The kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Wall street Journal, December 18, 1992) emphasis added.
“The war is OPEN UNTIL Israel *CEASES* to EXIST and until the LAST Jew in the world is ELIMINATED,”
(Hamas Leader) emphasis added.
NO, A-MAD-DIN-E-JAD, Hamas, Hezbollah, or any other Islamist Jihadist, no matter how much Satanic hatred, and vile pronouncements they make against Israel and the Jews, to destroy and annihilate Israel, it WILL NEVER HAPPEN, as Almighty God, has protected them, so far, and HE WILL continue to do so, as Jerusalem, the Capital of the Jews from King David, (over 3,000 years ago) will NEVER be the Capital of the Palestinians, NEVER, EVER.
The issue has NEVER been over LAND, it is the very EXISTENCE of *Israel* and the Jews, that is a thorn in the side of the Arabs, it is NOT the land they want, it IS the total ANNIHILATION of the State of Israel, and all JEWS, as repeatedly stated and vehemently expessed, over and over again, beginning with Mohammad, and more recently by that MAD-MAN in Iran, A-MAD-DIN-E-JAD.
Islam has sworn to conquer the entire world, it is all there recorded, to control every nation, and institute Sharia Law on all of humanity.
Can’t happen, will never happen, but, it is a WAR of civilizations, Satan, and his Islamist Jihadist, against Almight God, and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will WIPE them out, at His Second Comming, which is just around the corner!
Onlookers:
This thread is plainly at the level of personal abuse, and over the course of three months the technicians, the Sci-tech advocates and the NGO leaders have shown themselves by and large unable to rise to or stay at the standard of a significant, positive contribution.
Now, we see attacks on one who has by and large taken time to correct misinformation and counterbalance perspectives in his field of knowledge, and accusations of hypocrisy on the undersigned for expecting people as described to make significant contributions in their field of expertise. [T, even though his last remarks above are sad, is partly exceptional.]
This thread is a clear demonstration to the world of what is wrong in our region today, and why we are in and heading for deep trouble. After two generations now of our own university.
For shame!
Let us learn a lesson, and move on.
G’day
D
@ D..
You can play with with words all you like but you still fail to answer my question.
You say….’This thread is plainly at the level of personal abuse, and over the course of three months the technicians, the Sci-tech advocates and the NGO leaders have shown themselves by and large unable to rise to or stay at the standard of a significant, positive contribution.’
Other than ‘correcting’ people, what positive contribution (ridicule and blame doesn’t count) has your brother Zoe contributed to the Reconstruction of Haiti?
You have criticized CH, ROK and others for not contributing to the topin of this thread but would now try to defend Zoe for the same.
Yes, to you and himself, Zoe have ‘corrected’ others, but I ask you, in all honesty, out of all the posts on this thread, what has Zoe contributed (even as an idea) positively, to the reconstruction of Haiti.
Can you show us when and where?
Can you or Zoe correct me on this?
If not, you are IMHO, a hypocrite!!