Submitted by Crusoe (as a comment on the Haiti We Are Sorry blog
You list some good ideas for the structural retransformation of Haiti [Responding to Commenter Dictionary on the Haiti We Are Sorry blog]. Each in of themselves they do not depend on improved education but do depend on improved technical training (farming etc). However, for all, the long-term success of those initiatives individually and collectively leading to a successful Haiti will certainly also depend on improved education, if as we have been informed, the literacy level is so low.
This has two implications.
Firstly, immediately after initial search, rescue, medical, temporary (short and medium term) and security issues have been addressed as priority, the early reformation must include an immediate education programme, for adult and youth, such thatย the transformation of Haiti can begin with the active participation of her people, not as ‘serfs’ but as active individuals and communities with an understanding of the reasoning behind the methods and the aim of the methods.
I must add, that ‘transformation’ in this context is not meant to refer to bringing Haiti to the same philosophical outlook as anyone other specific group. In this context it is meant to refer to bringing Haiti to a level of self-capability and self-determination. Now, to expect say a three or four year ‘crash course’ in education and technical skills may seem either impossible or unrealistic, but unfortunately, if this is not done as one of the foundations of the rebuilding (in the context of not only structural, but as a nation of people), than all else may eventually prove futile.
This is obviously along the lines of the old phrase of teaching a man to fish instead of giving him the fish. Merely putting up structures, farms etc may certainly alleviate some misery, but while in the short term foreign contractors etc may gain much from the aid given for this purpose, the long-term goal should be to have Haitians and not only elite, but the everyday Haitian, benefit from money flows and thus create an independent people and a vibrant economy.
It is my view therefore Caricom leaders, should address the education of Haiti, as a priority, as much a priority as any other redevelopment effort.
To reinforce a point, the initial effort must not only be to set up an improved schooling system, but implement as an interim measure, an ’emergency education programme’, with the help of international authorities and the Haitian authorities. If one wants a long-term Haiti, this is essential.
We must give thanks yet again, that Errol Barrow saw the necessity of education as a developmental tool. And, we must forever resist ANY attempts to take free education from Barbadians. Indeed, those of us who wish for an improved world, must seek the furtherance of a sound even if basic education, for all peoples, as a necessity for development.
1,421 responses to “The Reconstruction And Transformation Of Haiti: A Global-Moral Imperative”
Onlookers:
We see ROK indulging a classic strawman.
He knows full well just what I have pointed to and challenged, but wishes to focus on something else, as he plainly cannot justify his attempt to dismiss the Christian faith as a mere unwarranted belief that he needs pay no attention to as its likelihood of being true is essentially zero.
In particular, notice how for two days now, where I have pointed out his need to address the 12 minimal facts on inference to best explanation, he has not done so.
That should tell us exactly what is going on.
G’day
D
PS: Hopi, prelim,next.
Onlookers:
Hopi presents two separate issues, first a claim on how c. 5000 BC “a Black Kemetian Astronomer”by name Imhotep, discovered the earth to be about 25000 mi circumference.
Now, Imhotep is a very familiar figure in Egyptology, and the Wiki summary on him is:
While indeed eminent and deeply respected, his dates, first are below 3000 BC, or about 5 k y ago, not about 7 ky ago. Similarly, the attribution of discovering the circumference of the earth is speculation — probably a projection from the pyramid inch speculations on the dimensions of the Great pyramid of Khufu being tied to the scale of the earth. We see nowhere a scientific methodology of observation and mathematical inference to the shape and size of the earth.
Eratosthenes’ and Aristotle’s scientific achievement stands.
Next, one hardly knows where to begin dis-assembling the list of confidently asserted claimed antecedents tot he Christian faith in Egyptian pagan thought:
1 –> Horus — in the mythology of Egypt — was the son of Osiris, by magical post mortem intercourse with his wife Isis, and in the context of O being magically tricked to his death by Set, while drunk. That’s four gods, and an entirely magical religious culture where even the gods are magicians. We could hardly be farther form the Hebraic, fiercely monotheistic worldview, in which magic is accursed as trafficking with spirits of darkness.
2 –> KRST is basically the Egyptian for burial, with a close cognate, coffin, and has nothing to do with the Greek translation of Messiah, anointed one of God, with the gk for anointed, Christos. Similar sounds attaching to utterly diverse concepts have been confused.
3 –> When Harpur used Kuhn’s IUSU recently, Egyptologists consulted on this claimed antecedent to the name Iesous, translating Yehoshua, or Joshua, had this to say:
4 –> Isis, as the WIFE of Osiris in the legend, is not a virgin, who knows not a man and is with child by a miracle of the One true God.
5 –> Osiris is Horus’ father, Lazarus is a friend of Jesus, and brother to Mary and Martha of Bethany E of Jerusalem, about 2 mi. In short, we are seeing utterly strained comparisons.
6 –> Similarly comparing Jesus with a lily and Horus with a similar flower, is utterly strained, and shows the actual lack of serious parallel. Have you Hopi not been compared to a Rose by some man who loved you? Jesus was known too as the Rose of Sharon!
7 –> John is actually compared to Elijah as prophetic announcer. I doubt that Horus was introduced to Israel or Egypt as “the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world,” in a context that points to Isa 53. Horus was the avenger of Osiris and overthrower of Set, who got into a fight with him that triggered a general melee of the gods, stopped only when Maat was getting totally out of balance.
8 –> Jesus died peacefully on a cross for our sins, as a lamb silent before its shearers. But, that was friday, sunday was coming and he rose triumphant, ultimately with 500+ witnesses. And, not in a legendary before time but in 30 Ad in Jerusalem.
9 –> Horus was a god, the son of two other gods. Jesus is the eternal Son, incarnated as Saviour.
10 –> Horus the burial or coffin? Again, the Egyptologists speak:
In short onlookers, the most superficial and strained resemblances have been force fitted into a scheme that utterly lacks warrant, for claiming that the Christian faith was based on Egyptian paganism.
But, if you did not do the look-up to see what was going wrong, you might be impressed.
Enough for now,
D
@Dict……
“Info based on hearsay and conjecture” Now if that statement was not so dangerous it would be laughable. But unfortunately, the God-like, sterling contributions that the BLACK Man has given to this world has been relegated to the European dustbin of hearsay & conjecture.
NEVERTHELESS,
Being as wise at they were they had aforeknowledge that your ilk would one day proceed him and try to destroy what he had built. Hence, he left monuments, pyramids and walls as his testimony. I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase ‘is it etched in stone’ and ‘ a picture is worth a 1000 wds.’
Dic, you can wiki pee and wiki leak all day but just remember that those who are today recording and re-writing ‘his’story are the descendents of the same deniers who blacked-out and white-washed our foreparents from the front pages of the story. He who owns the presses controls the information.
When it comes to the ‘history’ and contributions of the ANKHCESTORS to World ‘history’ I DO NOT DEPEND ON Wiki, google nor any of the others.
What christians like yourself and all the other eschatologists have done is called subjective interpretation.
Judaism and christianity have taken the fossil remains, which habitate the lowest strata of the human mind, preserved them and fed them as divinity to the gullible.
————————————
Let me point out another big LIE TO YOU. The so-called star of David that the imposter jew calls his own is straight out of AEgypt. What you have is the inter-lacing of 2 triangles symbolising the fusion of heaven and earth, spirit and matter, where the upward pointing triangle denotes ascent into spirit and the downward pointing denotes descent into matter or [AS ABOVE SO BELOW]. To the Kemetians it was known as the star of Creation.
So Dict, you’re biting quite viciously, but with mere false teeth.
Onlookers:
You will see a lot of abuse, blanket dismissal and assertion above, but very little substantiation on evidence; which is what was asked for.
A sad performance from one who is an educated person, so should know the significance of requesting documentation.
Let’s also get some timeline, again courtesy Wiki as a handy generic, 101 level source that has no real axe to grind on this matter, as the timeline is more or less fairly standard:
Relevance?
Two things, really: (i) Imhotep was associated with the step pyramid, not the Great one, and (ii) it is the latter, built maybe 200 or so years later, that has the dimensions that have led to pyramid inch speculations on the size of the earth. (BTW,Ii think it was Lord Kelvin who — probably tongue in cheek, and to twit his french colleagues whose meter was based on the circumference of the earth through Paris, worked out that the inch was pretty nearly 1 / 500 millionth the diameter of the earth N-S, as I recall. So if you wanted to use the size of the earth as your yardstick gentlemen, tada, the inch is as good as the metre, once the errors in the metre’s base survey are factored in.)
As to the Star of David, similar shapes have different meanings in different cultures, and in Hebraic culture it is occasionally explained as the top of the Pomegranate, which is held to hold 613 seeds traditionally, the number of specific laws in the Decalogue of Moses.
The same generic source observes (and note its even-handedness . . . imagine, me having to argue for Wiki!):
In short, the true and well-documented Ancient symbol of Israel is the seven branched candelabrum of the Torah, as we may see from the Arch of triumph of Trajan. And indeed, the onward, more serious source used by Wiki notes:
So, the source of the star of David — despite huffing and puffing on big lies [note the sober tone of these “big liars] — is not a serious issue on the roots of Judaism. And, insofar as it is a Judaic symbol, it is from well after the founding era of Judaism, in any case.
Again, we see another strained claimed derivation.
G’day.
Dictionary
NB: Building on the Schools of Hope, Haiti proposal as is discussed above [and as was developed above], I have now added some remarks on ideas from the resilient/sustainable community construction set folks, as possible ways forward for our region. D
If you are interested, cf Jewish Enc here. Same basic story.
@Dic…. He who controls the media controls the information.
Can you name me one thing of import that the BLACK man has contributed to western ‘civilization’ prior to 2500 BC?
Onlookers:
Let us observe carefully.
There simply has not been a cogent case of warrant presented for the claims of Egyptian paganism as the root-source of Judaism and the Christian Faith.
But, as blacks of African ancestry we are being invited as a matter of racial identity and loyalty — notice how these shameless and uncivil commenters dare to insinuate that the son of a man who laid his career on the line to stand up for the people of the Caribbean, and in whose veins runs the blood of a martyr and national hero, and who has also stood up for the truth and the right at cost to himself is somehow a racial traitor who despises his African roots! — to accept assertions that on even basic inspection turn out to be strained and with very little substantiation at best.
At worst, the claims we have seen form such quarters are outright myths, based on fringe, utterly unwarranted claims by marginal and often plainly ignorant writers in past generations.
Meanwhile, a matter of great moment, the core issues of the gospel, are being brushed aside, ignored and distracted from, with utterly no serious attention to the very serious evidence in its favour.
Indeed, let us observe how for two to three months, skeptical objectors and advocates of Egyptian paganism and Afrocentrism have been utterly unable to substantially address even the basic summary of that case and associated historical evidence here, resorting to the grossest forms of selective hyperskepticism to brush aside that which they patently do not wish to be true.
So, let us again put on the table, the twelve minimal facts to be explained on the relevant historical scholarship, facts that are agreed to as well established historical facts not only by conservatives, but also by a majority to in many cases the overwhelming majority of skeptical academic scholars who publish in the serious academic literature:
Let us observe, these facts are easily accounted for on the classic summary of the gospel as reported by eyewitnesses in the 30’s AD, and here recorded 55 AD, well within eyewitness lifetime:
By sharpest contrast NONE of the various skeptical theories that have often been advanced in recent centuries can address the cluster of minimal facts, or even a serious subset of them. Thus, the best explanation on the credible facts is patently obvious, nor is that likely to change, given what has happened across hundreds of years of debate at the highest levels of scholarship.
Just, that best explanation is plainly utterly unpalatable to many of secularist, or of neo-pagan mindset.
Given what is at stake, I therefore find it highly significant that the objectors to the Christian testimony have not sought to deal with the matter on the merits, but have instead sought to distract us form what is “of first importance.”
That tells us a lot about their real degree of confidence in their case on the merits — low — and it tells us a lot about their real motivation and its likely spiritual sources.
for, plainly, that motivation is not towards “that which says of what is, that it is, and of what is not, that it is not,” nor how, per the best available evidence and well-tested principles of reasoning, we may best warrant it. (Cf the rest of the just linked.)
And, we have not even got around to getting back to the focal issue for this blog thread.
Anyway, onlookers, it is time for us all to think seriously and soberly about things that are “of first importance.”
G’day
Dictionary
@Dic
I really can’t believe you wrote all that rubbish about the star of david. Tell us something about the swastika???
Onlookers
While this clips speak about pagan and satan worship, the salient fact is that the star originated outside christianity, and existed long before David. Some enlightened christians have said that the star of david should be dropped from its symbols because of the “pagan” beginnings of this symbol. Not only that, for years the christian church steered clear of the star,
God made apromised to Abraham that his seed should be as many as the stars in the sky. If that is true the Israelis cannot match that number. The last time I check they were more Blacks on this earth than Israelis. My point being that the Israelis must first be able to accomplished that to be called God chosen people.
How do we know that the present day Israelis are really the descendants of the Biblical Jews? Most of the people making up Israel today are the Ashkenazim. These people are from Europe and Russia. The Sephardi Jews are from Spain and the Mizrahi are from the Middle East.
@Dict……..Wait a minute…check out your #9….the church was BORN and grew.
Didn’t you make an about face earlier to say that christianity came out of Africa? When was it really born, at Jesus’ death or prior to that i.e. out of Africa? Get ya facts straight man.
Because D says it, doesn’t make it TRUTH/REAL!
——————————————
Did you know that the resurrection was also the central message in Kemet….just remember that it preceded the death of your christ. What do you think their ‘obelisks’ symbolises?
Keep biting my friend!
Onlookers:
Observe, predictably, that a serious and decisive matter on the table is distractivley brushed aside, derided and dismissed without serious consideration. And, that in the face of a serious challenge to address the matter on its merits.
By very direct implication, that tells us that ROK, Hopi et al are simply unable to address the central warranting case for the gospel and the Christian faith that they are so eager to dismiss and deride. They therefore resort to every species of distraction, distortion and demonisation to dismiss that which they need to face squarely and fairly.
Which abundantly — and, sadly — reveals that the Spirit of Truth is not guiding their thoughts, but instead the spirit of error.
As to the star of David, I have already linked the Jewish encyclopedia, which is an authoritative reference in which the Jews themselves say what they know about the Star of David. It is simply not the main, ancient symbol of the Jewish nation and faith. Far more ancient are: The Ark of the Covenant, the Menorah, and the Tables of the Law. (Indeed, my home church where I grew up was a former Synagogue, and its windows were in the shape of the twin tablets of the Law: The symbolism is plain, and profound — by Thy Word and Instructions we have light.)
So, now, let us address what happens when the cross is broken and twisted in a culture under modern circumstances — as appears in the first few paragraphs of the often linked 101 summary that ROK et al are ever so eager not to face.
Heinrich Heine, 1831, over 100 years before 1939 – 1945:
So, apostasy [which is what we are seeing in action in this thread] –a s Rom 1 has long since warned, comes with a stiff price tag.
And as to the newest assertion on resurrection, the mythical revivification of the mummified god Osiris, who then must go to the underworld for the dead may not return to the land of the living, has nothing to do with the rising from death triumphant in 30 Ad just outside the North gate of Jerusalem of him who is the firstfruits of them who sleep in death, who walked, talked, ate and even made breakfast for the witnesses who were at the core of the 500+ eyewitnesses to Him who Rose from death as Lord of Life — not the green, mummified king of a shadowy underworld.
In short, again and again, the hebraically rooted, on the ground manifested facts and related terms to describe those facts accurately and express their meaning, as we find in scripture — and as the history studies plainly justify as we saw above — are being wrenched almost beyond recognition to force-fit them into a myth that these things come from the soil of Egyptian polytheistic paganism.
A myth that is based on outdated scholarship at best, and outright irresponsible charlatanism posing as knowledge at worst.
A myth that we are being invited to swallow in the name of racial identity.
I am sorry, but with the blood of heroes in my veins, I refuse to surrender to the notion that to identify with my roots, I must swallow plainly false myths without question because they are packaged under the misleading labels of Blackness and African-ness.
Sorry, the heroes in my family did not lay down their lives and risk their careers on principle, soundness, the right and truthfulness for me to come along and betray my heritage like that.
(That is, if you need a “heritage” argument.)
THE BOTTOMLINE: After three months coming on now, the dismissers of the gospel and its historical warrant have only been able to distract, distort, demonise and dismiss. They have no serious case on the merits, and all serious-minded onlookers should see that plainly enough for themselves. Instead of the sawdust and ashes of such myths, the serious inquirer is invited to engage as a first step, the 101 level introduciton on the warrant for the gospel message, as linked again in the top of this post.
And, back on serious topics for this thread, I again invite said onlookers to look at the Schools of Hope Proposals and the onward Industrial Civilisation 2.0 ideas. (Note, too, that the said sadly shameless and uncivil commenters — we see nowhere the faintest trace of compunction on slanders and calls to arson, for just one instance — stand unable to make a single serious contribution on the foal topic for this thread: the reconstruction and transformation of Haiti. That this includes a leader of an NGO organisation, and “looked up to” commenters on national affairs, is even more saddening. For, plainly, none of this burnt out, poisonous brew of sawdust and ashes in the name of food for thought was even necessary. The distractions, distortions and demonisations above are wholly motivated by deep animosity and antiChristian bigotry that — tellingly but ever so sadly [this is “Christian” Barbados we are talking about here . . . ] — cannot find enough integrity in itself to acknowledge that a serious contribution has been made. Just because it is coming from the “wrong” people. So, onlooker, read again what Heine had to say in 1831, then weep and pray. Then get up and act, before it is too late. Bloodily too late.)
G’day.
Dictionary
@Dic
“By very direct implication, that tells us that ROK, Hopi et al are simply unable to address the central warranting case for the gospel and the Christian faith that they are so eager to dismiss and deride.”
There is no such case.
PS: Anonymous, given the way Akismet reacts to links, I have to put up a separate comment to deal with your point. If you will but read here (which I have already had to point out above) you will see among other things the following on the Ashkenazim Jews:
Of course if you read the appendix on Modern Israel’s history, you will know that most Jews in Israel are Oriental Jews of the ME, settled as displaced refugees from all over the ME. But, the next largest group are the Ashkenazim, from basically No Europe, survivors of the Holocaust who took refuge in Israel after WW 2. [BTW, Mufti Hussein’s plan with Hitler was to set up a Dachau on the Jordan for the Jews who had been resettling ever since the 1870s and rebuilding the land, if the Germans had won in the ME . . . ]
What the genetic studies show is that the Ashkenazim are very closely related to the Oriental Jews, especially on the paternal lineage side. It seems that circles of refugees or merchants settled in European towns, married local girls and then closed the circle, until such isolated communities could cross-marry; which also has the unfortunate side-effect that there are a number of genetic diseases that crop up frequently in that population. In turn, both sets of Jews are closely related to the Arabs, and , surprise [NOT] — they are even more closely related to the Kurds. The Kurds are in just the right place to be descendants of the 10 northern tribes exiled by the Assyrians in 722 BC. There are also other groups of credible Jewish descendants all over the peripheries of he former Persian and before that Assyrian and Babylonian empires, from India and Afghanistan to Ethiopia. Even the Pushtun have a tradition that they are Jewish descendants.
(it is advisable to also read here, given the pervasiveness of a lot of misinformation, too much of which is driven by the agitprop campaigns first set up decades ago by ex Nazi propagandists working for Dictators in the ME. And yes, this is proven fact. The very same propagandists who set up the German mindset for supporting the Holocaust of the 1940’s, have set up much of current global opinion on Israel and Jews today.)
F.N: Sobering, shocking reading on the roots of many opinions on the ME today.
Onlookers:
Contrast:
In short, ROK is here caught out in a blatant, confidently asserted lie. For, he knows, or should know better than he speaks, seeking to cut down others.
He plainly has no answer to the case — or else over the past two months he would have made it and trumpeted it. but instead of acknowledging that there is a case to answer, he rhetorically pretends and asserts that there is no case. Just as before, when he was challenged to account for his words that dismissed CHRISTIANITY as a mere unwarranted belief that had effectively zero probability of being true, he was unable to justify his dismissal in the teeth of the precise same reference to a 101 level summary on the gospel and its historical factual warrant.
So, let me again put down the bottomline summary from yesterday afternoon, noting that the case to be answered is presented at 101 level in the already linked, and that more extensive materials are accessible through the Internet, through libraries and bookstores, starting with CLC right there in Bridgetown — for many years just across from the Cathedral, now further up as I recall, closer to Queen’s Park near the foot of Crumpton Street:
______________
>> . . . let us observe how for two to three months, skeptical objectors and advocates of Egyptian paganism and Afrocentrism have been utterly unable to substantially address even the basic summary of that case and associated historical evidence here [as linked just above], resorting to the grossest forms of selective hyperskepticism to brush aside that which they patently do not wish to be true.
So, let us again put on the table, the twelve minimal facts to be explained on the relevant historical scholarship, facts that are agreed to as well established historical facts not only by conservatives, but also by a majority to in many cases the overwhelming majority of skeptical academic scholars who publish in the serious academic literature:
Let us observe, these facts are easily accounted for on the classic summary of the gospel as reported by eyewitnesses in the 30โs AD, and here recorded 55 AD, well within eyewitness lifetime:
By sharpest contrast NONE of the various skeptical theories that have often been advanced in recent centuries can address the cluster of minimal facts, or even a serious subset of them. [This is shown in onward links from the above linked] Thus, the best explanation on the credible facts is patently obvious, nor is that likely to change, given what has happened across hundreds of years of debate at the highest levels of scholarship.
Just, that best explanation is plainly utterly unpalatable to many of secularist, or of neo-pagan mindset.
Given what is at stake, I therefore find it highly significant that the objectors to the Christian testimony have not sought to deal with the matter on the merits, but have instead sought to distract us form what is โof first importance.โ
That tells us a lot about their real degree of confidence in their case on the merits โ low โ and it tells us a lot about their real motivation and its likely spiritual sources.
for, plainly, that motivation is not towards โthat which says of what is, that it is, and of what is not, that it is not,โ nor how, per the best available evidence and well-tested principles of reasoning, we may best warrant it. (Cf the rest of the just linked.) >>
_______________
If this were not happening before our very eyes, we probably would find it incredible.
But, it is all too vividly real, folks.
Let us pray that these eyes will be opened, and hearts sufficiently stirred to rise above being benumbed to the right and blinded to the truth. In the Name of Him who is risen as Lord of Life and our eternal hope. So let it be, oh Lord.
G’day
Dictionary
All of these ancient Empires came crashing down, Egypt, et al, because of Rampant, deadly, from the pit-of-Hell IDOLATRY, just as we have tones of Warranted Credible Truth, evidence, for the history of Judaism and the ‘birth’ of Christianity, transforimg vast multitudes of people from EVERY ethic background, ALL colours of people, across the face of the earth, and rising daily in AFRICA, the Middle East, China, Russia, South America, et al nations, through the Gospel of Christ, FACTS, that are scoffed at by the demonised, delusional, LIARS here on BU, frauds.
Here is some more credible warranted truth, from right within the last century, absolutely confirming, Once again, the veracity of God’s Word the Bible.
“Babylon (i.e., Iraq) will fall upon completion of 70 years (of ascendancy).”
“As the prophet Daniel points out, after the completion of its 70 years (but before its 70th birthday), Iraq will be hit by violent storms that will break apart the kingdom.”
‘Dear reader, consider this. It is truly amazing! The borders of Iraq were created by the League of Nations. After Turkey fell to the Allies during World War 1, the huge Ottoman Empire was dismantled. Where once there was a huge, faceless expanse of land, there would now be two dozen countries. In the beginning of the 20th Century, there was NOT even one Arab nation. Only families existed and loosly affiliated tribal connections. There was NO national identity. As a matter of fact, most Arabs had NO roots: one day they lived in one area, at another time they would migrate elesewhere in this huge territory. The Middle East was one large unit of the Ottoman Empire for the 400 years of its control; during this era, there were NEVER any countries. However, after World War 1, the Ottoman Empire was carved up into chuncks. One area became Egypt and another Syria. Yer another was to be labeled Palestine. One parcel, Iraq, was formally created on October 1932. Now, please follow this simple calculation. Created on 13 October 1932, Iraq’s seventieth birthday was on 13 Octobe 2002. As the Bible proclaims, modern-day Iraq would fall after its 70th years- BUT before its 71th year. The prophecy is that 21st Century Jews will wonder (beginning on 14th 2002) why Iraq still stands beyond it 70th year, beyond 13 October 2002). The prophecy is that SOON after 13 October 2002, well-versed people will wonder why Iraq had not yet fallen – in accorance with what is recorded in the Bible. The prophet reassures them when he says just ‘a little longer’ and the evil kingdom of Iraq will be toppled – before its 71st year, which means before October 2003. Sure enough, 5 months after October 2002, Iraq was plummeted by America. Iraq fell from power in March 2003 – FIVE months after its 70th birthday, and well before its 71st birthday.”
“Modern-day Iraq fulfills the description that are utilized in the language of the Bible. Indeed, Iraq is the ‘Biblical Babylonia’. As we all know, ‘a little bit’ after its 70th birthday, Iraq was attacked by an American -led coalition – an, as we have just noted, another prophecy was fulfilled. As breathtaking as this development might be, waite till you see what follows in the next chapter.” (Prophecies For The Era of Muslim Terror, A Torah Perspectrive on World Events, pp. 174,175) emphasis added.
@Dict………You need a mirror my brother. You continually point 2 fingers at ROK & I and somehow you can’t see a fist point right back at you. Every ‘blasphemous’ act you’ve thrown our way, YOU are guilty of.
Here is your central warranting case for the gospel. THE RESURRECTION! You see Dic, the Kemetian’s Resurrection PREceded your Christian resurrection by eons.
At the advent of christianity in Africa where was Jesus Christ?
And another thing Dic…you are constantly referring to the Ancient Egyptian’s religion as paganism. Now lets be honest. Weren’t the pagans the northerners?
Do you know that the early Greeks did not bastardised the Ancients like tthe imposter jew did? The Greeks actually went there to learn. Herodotus was constantly singing the praises of that Great Black Civilization. Didn’t your ‘Ari’ and Plato and all the other ‘great’ Greeks go there just to study at the feet of the Masters?
———————————Let me leave you with a little water———————————
“In vain you try to engraft the living shoot
Upon a dead tree, rotten to the root.”
“Judaism, Christianity & Islam are innovations on fragments from the periphery of the African cultural and spiritual system.”
Notable Quotations
Egyptian, MYTHOLOGICAL, Satanic, IDOLATRY; what are the FACTS?
Ruination of an Empire, WHY? Because all of this “kemetian” resurrection, was a MYTH, all Demonic entities, from SATAN, masquerading as *gods* NO power whatsoever, to transform anyone’s life, ONLY destruction ever came from such PAGANISTIC, IDOLATROUS *MYTHS*
Whereas, the Historic Christ, confirmed by Legal evidence, both internal, Gospel accounts, 500+ witnesses, and external Roman sources, AND multiplied MILLIONS from across the then know Empire, continuing throught the nations of the world, a reported 15,000 Muslims coming to Jesus Christ daily throughout the Middle East, Millions across Africa, with TESTIMONIES from evry known COLOUR of humanity, ALL givine forcefull, LIVING proof, of the Resurrected, Ascended Lord of Lords, and King of Kings, JESUS CHRIST, warranted, PROOF, that HE lives, as God of very God, not some demonic MYTH, in ancient Egyptian, paganistic, idolatrous, ruined Empire!
Hindus and Muslims in India and Pakestan, have amazing testimonies, to miraculous healings IN the Name of Jesus Christ, not Allah, nor Mohammad, nor some Demon posing as some *god* who ultimately ruined the Empire, as Almighty God’s righteous justice fell upon this Satanic LIE, as it did on every other form of Idolatry!
There IS no other world religion, that has the vast amount of warranted, credible truth, across the nations of the world, OVER the last 2,000 years, like Chrisianity, and NO amount of venomous, vile RACIST hatred as vented here on BU, by demonised, LIARS, who have nothing to say, but distortions, red-herrings, and soaked strawmen like rhetoric, void of any substance whatsoever, can take away from the living reality, taking place as I write, that literally THOUSANDS upon thousands, DAILY are coming to Jesus Christ, for Salvation, and are being LIBERATED from the tyranny of paganism, idolatry, are being transformed from WITHIN, to PEACE, JOY, and purpose, and the Gift of Eternal Life, to be found Only in The Lord Jesus Christ.
That IS WARRANTED CREDIBLE TRUTH! Cemented from circa 35-100 A.D. and HAS NEVER stopped, and will NEVER stop, until Jesus Christ returns, which is around the corner of our present era!
Onlookers:
We see here — just as sadly — the fallacy of the closed mind in action onthe part of Hopi as well.
She is confronted not with some mythological never-never magical revivificaiton of a mummified body of an imaginary — no one seriously asserts that Osiris, Horus et al are real divine beings [thought ere may be a few demons out there who get fun from putting on the disguises . . . ] — god, but with the real thing: rising from death triumphant and capable of walking, talking, dining with and making breakfast with us, in real life in Jerusalem, 30 AD, with 500+ witnesses. And, withthe Spirit of God poured out in millions of life transforming cases, including at least thousands in our region in our day so that this is stuff that Hopi et al know or should know about, but refuse to accept, preferring myths
And what does she do? Predictably, divert away from warranting evidence to her preferred pagan myths; while trying to assert that it is I who am falling afoul of selectively hyperskeptical fallacies.
As to the second instance of trying to exclude Egyptian polytheism from the definition of paganism [ROK tried that stunt in an earlier thread and was corrected — it seems we are dealing with stubborn insistence on preferred errors here], let the dictionary speak in correction — hopefully, Hopi is not averse to so humble a source:
This, then is what we are dealing with:
When nations follow that path, they walk in the classic, community and civilization-destroying march of folly.
Therefore, let us hear the further word through the Apostle Paul to the pagan educated elites in Athens, 50 AD — the equivalent of Oxford and Cambridge:
[ –> This is the key turning point: Athens was the pinnacle of learning, the fountainhead of the intellectual life of our civlisaiton, having synrthesised the heritage of earlier cultures and added to it he fruits of Greek genius as pioneers of systematised, axiomatised mathematical thought, and of classical syllogistic logic and worldview-synthesising philosophy
–> And, at the core of these worldviews and bodies of knowledge was a hole and a crack: they were unable to access knowledge of teh central, grounding reality based on their speculations and had for centuries — since Cleanthas it seems — maintained a public monument to their ignorance of and alienation from ultimate reality: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD
–> Paul therefore pointed to the fatal flaw, and said instead: I PROCLAIM to you, based on of course personal knowledge of God in the face of Christ, the once crucified and risen Lord]
24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.
[ –> So much for the idea that magic could have any influence on God or on the creation he has made!
–> no, i tis not ritually manipulable morally neutral powers that if we mix the right potion or say the right silly incantation pronounced just so: “Levi-O-so” as Harry Potter’s friend Hermione insists
–> Nor is it a matter of clashing gods that you must pick your way among to navigate the chaos left by the demiurge and the clashes among he gods or angels or aeons or whatever you wish to call them
–> instead, we have access tot he One true God, our Creator, the Righteous Judge, by penitent faith in Jesus who died for our sins according to the scriptures [cf Is 53, 700+ BC, and note the taunt YHWH gives to so called would be gods: predict the future in details long in advance, and show you control it!], was buried and rose with power and with 500+ direct eyewitnesses,a dn millions who have met him in resurrection power ever since]
26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.
[ –> So much for racism in all its guises, whether Euro-centric or any other centric
–> And of course, by controlling peoplehood, place and times, God geostrategically controls the flow of history. That is why he can prophesy and make it so!]
27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28’For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
[ –> In short, in the midst ofthe chaos created by the march of rebellious and often idolatrous folly, God is still within reach if we would but cry out sincerely!]
29″Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stoneโan image made by man’s design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
[ –> The cross and the resurrection are the true hinge of history: God has sent out the call to repentance, and has backed it up with a clear warrant,a s we have discussed and as Hopi and ROK et al are ever so eager to avoid dealing with
–> In the face of that warrant you and I have a choice: deride and dismiss, postpone indefinitely or repent and receive the Living Lord.
–> And, once to every man and nation comes the time to decide for the good or evil side, the time to decide truth or lie, folly and self-destruction or wisdom and blessing.
–> The few Athenians who chose aright became the foundation of the future for their city: that is why the road by the Agora is Holy Apostle street, and its continuation — right by the Parthenon — is Dionysius the Areopagite Street.
–> The future belonged tt he gospel
–> And in Egypt, once the gospel had free course, the people turned from worthless idols to the true and living God. And today, on the testimony of a bold Egyptian priest, Fr Butrous, 15,000 spiritually oppressed under the Sharia are finding freedom in Christ each day, often live on the air
–> So, Barbados, will you stand with the living God, or turn away tot he march of idolatrous, demonised folly?
–> And note, images made to look like men, birds, beasts and reprtiles holds for those we see in museums and school textbooks just as well as it does for those in temples of old]
32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33At that, Paul left the Council . . . .
So then, let us hear the great prophetic protest-hymn, Once to every man and nation:
And, Barbados, this is that time of kairos — a time of pivotal, spiritually significant choice — for the Caribbean.
Dictionary
@Dictionary
“ROK tried that stunt in an earlier thread and was corrected…”
I was? No such luck fella. The pagans were from up north. These are the people who were called Pagans. What you have done, and why this fanatical approach to Christianity is so dangerous, is to bastardise and stigmatise the word Pagan to mean anything that is not Christianity and now you are trying to pin it on the Egyptians; a dirty lot you are.
What Egyptian paganism what? Egyptians were not Pagans and it is you run-away christians that have pinned that word on the Egyptians.
EGYPTIANS WERE NOT AND WERE NEVER PAGANS. SO STOP WITH YOUR IGNORANCE. STOP CORRUPTING HISTORY. EVERYTHING YOU GET YOUR HANDS ON YOU CORRUPT. THEN YOU CLAIM TO BE SO HOLY. MORE LIKE HOLEY; AS FULL OF HOLES.
Onlookers|:
ROK here proves my point, again.
In the face of a direct dictionary definition, and the known context of Egyptian polytheism and associated mythology, he is unable to see the direct implication that Egyptian religion was an example of polytheistic paganism.
Let us refresh our memory on that basic definition of a word:
Why?
Because he has a fixed — and plainly closed-minded — notion, driven by a radically racialised view.
(And in fact Ancient Egypt is not the model and archetype of Sub Saharan African civilisations, either. Its worldview was quite distinct from say the Ashanti, Ebos and Yoruba of W Africa, from which groups many of our ancestors came to the Caribbean. As to the population, it was an admixture of various elements almost from the very beginning, with a unifying culture and role in the Mediterranean and Middle eastern world as the SW anchor of the famous fertile crescent and the base of the second of the two major river valley civilisations in that arc.)
In turn, this closed mindedness is another evidence onthe point from the past several days, where we see that ROK has fixed his mind on ideas he imbibed some 30 years ago and will not allow himself to be corrected in the face of facts that cut across the notions he absorbed at hat time.
Sadly, he has again resorted to atmosphere-poisoning personalities instead of focussing on “say[ing] of what is that it is and of what is not that it is not.”
Even more sadly, such set behaviours by now do not just speak to error, but to unmet, un-grappled with challenges on character.
Pray for him.
D
PS: Tour Egypt has a handy index of the gods and goddesses of Egypt here. My count is 120+. The legend of Osiris gives a good overview of the typical mythological interaction between these gods, in the central context of rationalising the book of the dead and the mummification of the wealthy dead. Note in particular how in Egypt event he gods were magisiians — and the importance of magicians is at once apparent from a reading of Genesis and Exodus where the Hebrew nation had dealings with Egypt, from about 1750 – 1900 on as residents. And however you may be able to find some philosopher or other rationalising these gods and goddesses as aspects or facets of the suggested god behind the gods, that is itself revealing, as it underscores that the vast majority of the people of ancient Egypt understood these gods as just that, in the usual sense. Also, if one were to look in Augustine — a North African BTW — City of God, you will see that he same was done with Roman paganism, and you will find that he root of the pagan scheme is magic and divination. Magic, divination and many gods all amount to a very familiar biblical picture, from Rom 1 as already cited, in the classic Christian analysis of and rebuke to all substitutes for the one and only true Living God:
–> remember, this analysis comes [57 AD] form the pen of the man whom many in our day would caricature as the one who created a pagan synthesis out of the failed would be messiah from Nazareth.
–> This skeptical myth pops like a child’s balloon so soon as it meets the sharp pen of Paul in full intellectual and prophetic cry!
@Dic
“In the face of a direct dictionary definition, and the known context of Egyptian polytheism…”
The dictionary reflects usage. The dictionary is not a proclaimer of anything, it is about the use of English and basically it reflects what people like you say. It is only an authority on usage. If we as users of English discard a word, so will the dictionary.
When it comes to designating the word paganism/pagan, that was done by the Christians. In true historical context, a pagan is a white man and not the Egyptians.
How you use the word paganism has corrupted the very people who called themselves pagans. That is how you deal with your belief, put down anything that is not the same as it. A bunch of deceitful people and you are perpetrating this dishonesty against your own, unless you are a white man.
EGYPTIANS ARE NOT, WERE NOT, AND NEVER WILL BE PAGANS, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU CALL THEM SO.
Your approach to christianity and this psycho-approach to coining words of your own to put down entire cultures and people is not just disgraceful, but very, very, very disrespectful; not to mention insulting… but that is how christians bully their way through. My problem is that christianity is a mere faith and you or no one else have that right. Your actions are criminal to say the least and the quicker you realise that the better it will be for your soul.
Onlookers:
Sadly, ROK is simply being closed-mindedly stubborn; driven by a racially polarised mindset. (Observe, the term “pagan” is precisely not a racially loaded term, as it wold equally apply to ancient Germanic peoples, Britons, Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Chaldeans, Chinese, Aryans, Dravidic peoples, etc etc, but ROK can only see the world through a harshly polarised black/white grid; one in which –never mind that the first foundation of a national church was in Africa [Ethiopia, cf Ac 8:26 ff] and the second in Asia [Armenia]. — he can only conceive of Christianity as the white man’s racial imposition on he spirit of the black man; hence his clinging desperatelyt tohe slander that Christians worship the image of a blond blue eyed god, in the teeth of the evidence. As usual. It was not for no reason that Aristotle warned us in his The Rhetoric, that our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are very different from those we make when we are pained and hostile!)
Notice how ROK begins the remarks just above:
Now, of course the dictionary in question is a standard one, and the publication dateline is 2009, i.e. it reflects current — and BTW, longstanding — standard usage. Pagan is a term referring to polytheism, especially that of classical times.
Going beyond that, the histrionics on this side-issue are yet another distract5ion from and postponement of having to deal with the central warranting case for the Christian faith; which ROK informs us he “know[s]” is “just a belief,” one whose probability of being substantially true — i.e of corresponding to reality — is in his estimation essentially “zero.”
After two and more months, and after several days of direct challenge, ROK has been utterly unable to , for instance, answer to the12 minimal facts compiled from a major study of the academic field studying the passion narratives concerning Jesus and related issues.
These facts, again are a consensus of not only conservative but the dominant majority of scholars, including the more skeptical ones:
In light of his recent inability to address the implications of classical Egyptian religion having over 120 gods, we can conclude for ourselves on just how much real substance attaches to the claimed knowledge on the key question of the resurrection of Jesus.
In fact, it is known that none of the major skeptical theories advanced in the past 200+ years is capable of addressing the 12 facts, or even a significant subset of 4 – 6. So ROK has no real justification for the dismissal of the resurrection, other than closed minded question-begging. Which is precisely what he just did on the nature of ancient Egyptian religion.
More importantly, there is a “theory” that can explain it, i.e. the summary report of the testimony of he 500+ eyewitnesses recorded in 1 Cor 15:1 – 11, and in core part reading:
On the strength of that best explanation, one unlikely to be supplanted in light of the failure of the alternatives over several centuries, we have every epistemic right to see the resurrection of Jesus, fulfilling specific prophecies of up to 700+ years beforehand, as warranted, credibly true historical fact. On the strength of this, we see him as Lord of Life, fulfiller of the OT. Thus the OT is the Word of God, the Lord and Creator and Saviour. And the NT is the word of the Spirit-empowered Apostles who were Jesus’ authorised spokesmen, so it is also the inspired Word of God. On the strength of such scripture we have every confidence in the historic C1 Christian faith and its roots in the Hebraic prophetic tradition of covenantal relationship with The Most High God, the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, our Lord, Saviour and Judge. And indeed, through the same promises of the same scriptures, millions for 20 centuries have come to know God in the face of Jesus, in life-transforming ways. Many thousands in the Caribbean — and indeed right there in Barbados.
So, all reasonably educated people in the Caribbean know or should know this. Including ROK.
So, after yet another week of distractions, we are back to the focus for this thread: the reconstruction and transformation of Haiti. And, on this we again see a conspicuous, loudly telling silence on the part of the ever so eager critics, once a serious proposal on Schools of Hope was put on the table live in this thread, and now that an additional suggestion on sustainable renewal of industrial civilization has joined it..
That is sadly telling, but we must move ahead on transformation, not only of Haiti but of our wider region, given the trends and forces at work in this century as we approach its second decade, beginning in 2011.
G’day
Dictionary
@Dic
“the term โpaganโ is precisely not a racially loaded term, as it wold equally apply to ancient Germanic peoples, Britons, Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Chaldeans, Chinese, Aryans, Dravidic peoples, etc etc…”
Of course, you referring to all these people as pagans does not make them Pagans. So you dictionary usage does not prove a thing. The Chaldeans were not Pagans, the Chinese were not Pagans and that is a fact. Pagan referred to a particular people in a particular place.
Your use of the word Pagan to erroneously describe all these people, is a perfect example of how christianity and christians put down everything which you think opposes you. You take it and demonise it and then stigamatise people associated with it. This is natural for christianity because it is a political and economic philosophy. Yes, it is all politics.
EGYPTIANS ARE NOT AND NEVER WERE PAGANS. THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT EGYPT AND EVERYBODY ELSE, SO THAT CHRISTIANITY CAN PREVAIL WITHOUT ANY RESISTANCE.
You said: “After two and more months, and after several days of direct challenge, ROK has been utterly unable to , for instance, answer to the12 minimal facts…”
You ever heard the story about 12 at one stroke? Well let me give you the answer to all twelve in one sentence. “Jesus Christ never lived.”
@Dic
“millions for 20 centuries have come to know God in the face of Jesus…”
Perfectly correct! The blue-eyed, blonde-haired, white man’s face which you stoutly deny. You worse than Peter.
You said, “More importantly, there is a โtheoryโ that can explain it…”
Very true, because beliefs are based on theories that have never been proven. What is there to explain. You have taken the faith and try to intellectualise it. This is where you are now exposing the political tail of christianity and religion for that matter. That is why you try to justify it.
This is base on man’s inability to accept change. It is a closed mind. You cannot imagine your world without it. That is how you were socialised and that is how you were taught. You have now become so accustomed to christianity that to describe or explain the world in other terms would shatter your world. That you can’t take, not even as a casual exercise, because you just can’t imagine it.
But let me say that a Muslim who came up in a Muslim society is the same way about their religion. They cannot imagine the world being explained in different terms. So is the Chinese, etc., etc. All of you exist on beliefs that were never proven.
What does that make you? Just as “Pagan” as any of them. The same word that you bastardise.
@Dic…..Earlier, I asked you about any contribution the Black Man made prior to 2500 BC and you blew a gasket. You refused to answer. Then you went on a rant about the import of yourself and your ‘parent.’ Then you returned to staunchly defend the Greeks and how…….
“Athens was the pinnacle of learning, the fountainhead of the intellectual life of our civlisaiton, having synrthesised the heritage of earlier cultures and added to it he fruits of Greek genius as pioneers of systematised, axiomatised mathematical thought, and of classical syllogistic logic and worldview-synthesising philosophy.”
Dic…that immediate quote is a PHANTOM.
If one were to thoughtlessly listen to the D, one would have no choice but to believe that the greatest people to walk this planet were the Greeks. How is it that the scientists ‘claim’ that all ‘humankind’ descended from Africa yet civilization only began with the Greeks? What happened to Africa prior to Greece?
The great Greek historian Herodotus wrote of the ‘godlike’ contribution he saw of the Black Ancients, and how they the Greek went to AEgypt to study at the feet of Brilliance. He was an eyewitness. So who are you to pretend that you know and to try to tell us otherwise?
No villification of the Ancients will make you Right or True. Remember that clip you posted about some white boy and his hydraulics…..Well let me show you where it came from….It was the use of hydraulics and hydrostatics that Narmer-Menes was able to divert the Hapi and build a city called Menefer. So before one European knew anything of hydraulics the Kemetians had already developed to a science.
There were countless others before you who tried to eradicate the EVIDENCE, the the Ancients in their wisdom, built upon a foundation of TRUTH. You like all the others will continually run into brick walls that you can’t penetrate nor get around.
“In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.โ
How is it that earlier ‘God’ used to think one way but ‘he’ has recently CHANGED ‘his’ mind? Kindly explain how ‘god’ allowed ‘such ignorance’ before. Is this the ‘god’ you believe in, the ‘god’ of the christian?
Look at your Anointed Christ…the idea of the ‘anointed’ also came straight from Kemet…where they anointed the krast for mummification. So yet again your anointed Christ was based on the mummification of the same ‘legendary’ Osiris in preparation for the RESURRECTION which was also the central theme in this culture…from which you copied your resurrection.
According to you ‘……….God geostrategically controls the flow of history.’ What happens to man’s choice and freewill? Is it this same ‘god’ who carries out genocide, famine, disease, endless war, theft, looting, pillaging? Isn’t this all a part of geostratic control of the flow of history?
Look at the time period you give to the Hebrew dealings with Kemet 1750-1900. Man you are so late. Are you aware that at this time Asian and European invaders had decimated and taken over rulership of Kemet which was now called Egypt …a name given by the Greeks?
Earlier you said there were 500 witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection. Can you name 5 those 500 who witnessed him come out of that grave?
“The disciples had experiences which they “BELIEVED” were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof.)” Look at what we have to go on “BELIEF” hence, there is absolutely no proof that anyone of them saw Jesus risen from the dead, NO PROOF, NOT TRUE.
Look neither you nor GP can touch with a 10ft pole the fact that Hermeunetics originated in Kemet. Can you dispute that Dic?
………………………………ALL ROAD LEAD BACK TO KEMET. ………………………………
Onlookers:
We simply see more of the same above.
I will DV be back a little later and observe on a few points.
For now, let us just note on the dictionaries:
D
PS: Hopi is still trying to find “Black” contributions before 2500 BC. Of course, the term “black” as we use it is a modern concept so the very question is anachronistic. There are very few records for the time in question, and the relevant ones for Egypt will not identify persons by race as we understand it, and especially in the categories white/black as we understand it; though many Afrocentrists are quick to claim Egypt as Black. (Cf Wiki here for a quick guide to the issues.) Since for instance I have already identified Imhotep’s credible contributions in medicine and architecture [which were quite important], I need not take Hopi’s call seriously, as she is the one who claims him as “black.”.
Onlookers:
Sadly, we simply see more of the same above; distractive comments on tangents, led to distortion and demonisation. Sad, especially as we recall the actual core issue for this thread: the reconstruction and transformation of Haiti. On which the vociferous critics above have been loudly silent for over a month. (One being head of a national NGO organization.)
I think it is time to take a break for a few days, to see if at length these commenters will get serious and make a substantial contribution to the focus of this thread. (We have already seen that on the tangential hobby-horses they try to ride above, they are plainly ill-informed; sadly so,)
For now, then, let the following serve as corrective notes on the record:
1] ROK on Paganism
I notice WP has swallowed a comment, so let us again point to the dictionaries:
So, while “pagan” is not a particularly complimentary term, it has a reasonable, objective meaning that inter alia applies to Graeco-Roman polytheism, and to Egyptian polytheism.
The reason it is not regarded with high esteem is obvious: the polytheistic, many-gods worldview and its expression in “images made to look like men, and birds and reptiles” etc has long been utterly discredited as a serious option for thinking people.
That is why I am astonished to see attempts to rehabilitate it in the name of racial solidarity with Ancient Egypt. Sorry, my identity as a predominately Afro-Caribbean person is not that fragile and it is not that irrational.
2] Paul’s rebuke to paganism and related rebellions against god:
The record was made AD 57:
3] On Ancient “Black” achievements:
Earlier I did not comment on this because it is so fundamentally misconceived.
My understanding, on a far greater authority than Hopi can ever hope to be, is that we all have been made in the Image of God, from One man and of one blood-family. So, achievements of ALL peoples and ALL times are my proud heritage as a human being.
And, as to notions of the Black man as a racial inferior, I can look from the athletic field to the Academic lecture hall, to the top echelons of the civil service and banking, to the business field to the Chief of the US General Staff and find my close relatives there, and so soon as I take up a $10 J’can coin, I see my relative as a national hero and martyr to principle.
So, I need not cling to scattered records of the dim past interpreted anachronistically to find pride in my ancestors.
4] Corrections to Hopi:
Hopi, sadly, is still trying to find “Black” contributions before 2500 BC.
Of course, the term “black” as we use it is a modern concept so the very question is anachronistic. There are very few records for the time in question, and the relevant ones for Egypt will not identify persons by race as we understand it, and especially in the categories white/black as we understand it; though many Afrocentrists are quick to claim Egypt as Black.
Cf Wiki here for a quick guide to the issues. I cite:
What a futile debate!
Since for instance I have already identified Imhotep’s credible contributions in medicine and architecture [which were quite important], I need not take Hopi’s call seriously, as she is the one who claims him as “black.”.
____________________
Okay, let us give ROK, Hopi et al a few days to contribute something substantial, positive and on the main focus for the thread.
Failing that, they have plainly utterly discredited themselves — and that on a sustained basis.
D
D…..You have clearly demonstrated that you know absolutely NOTHING of the Ancients. You go and wiki pee and then come and leak here on this thread. More arrogance clothed in ignorance.
————————————
On the matter of Haiti, they are still dying because of opportunistic diseases while you, in your desperate quest to impress the non-malleable minds on this thread, which are definitely a THORN in your brain, are still here pretending that you really care or give a damn about those poor suffering Black people. Stop fooling yaself pleeze.
And on that note I’ll part with these few wds to you- the CON-sultant….
——————-
“fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities, TRUTH isn’t.” AND “a man is never more truthful than when he acknowledges himself a liar.”
Hopi you aint easy. I love it!
@JC….How you doing my dear?
I am like you SWEET!
@ Hopi…
I think that the main problem here is that, too often we use the wrong yardstick to measure success or greatness.
@Tech….How you doing?
Wow seems like the Dick gone flaccid.
@ Hopi…
I am great, just turned a year older and grateful. Wish I could send home some of this rain though, Bim needs it.
@Techie
Happy Birthday
Question: Are you a Pisces. Good People.
Onlookers:
Still no substantial contribution on the main topic. As tot he dismissive remarks on tangential matters, they plainly fall of their own weight; those who make them havign long since demonstrated their adherence to m,isinformaiton-laced myths and refusal to be corrected.
See you again later, hopefully with something that shows that we are dealing with more than noisy gongs and clanging empty barrels, full of sound and fury, but alas, signifying nothing of substance.
G’day
D
Pardon, i accidentally cross-threaded a remark meant for here:
++++++++++++++++++++
PS: Those wishing to find a basis for more balanced discussion on the nature of โraceโ may want to start here, with a Sci museum exhibition, which you can use to help calibrate the tone and substance of this Wiki 101 level briefing on the concept and issues relating to โrace.โ (Note, the Wiki article has in it something like 104 specific references and a bibliography of about 80 further pieces of serious reading; comparing favourably with many a serious scientific research paper or even a thesis; in short, Hopiโs namecalling dismissal is empty-headed โ though of course I have always advocated caution in using Wiki or any other generic reference; much less technical or popular level articles and books.) From these, you can then begin to deal with the euro-vcentric vs afrocentric myths issues on the racial roots of Ancient Egyptians. For me, the issue is a non-starter, as it is plain that the basis of capacity, dignity and intelligence is our Creation in the image of God, which โ as studies showing there is such a thing as a mitochondrial Eve support โ makes us all brothers and sisters and cousins. [As a matter of fact, I gather there is probably more raw genetic diversity in your average troop of Baboons than in the human race.)
++++++++++++++++++++
@Tech & ac…..Bless you 2. Did you know that God is a Pisces? The helpers of the planet.
@Dic…..See you took ya mental viagra, even though you’re still limping, but good fa you.
@ ac…
That I am, heard we are good people and all I have met seem to be good.
Hope Zoe dont come and find some demonic issue with the signs …LOL!!
@ Hopi..
I should be in good company then.
@Techie &Hopi
Very interesting .We are like long lost cousins. Nice to meet you. My birthday was couple days ago . Don’t look a day older.