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Submitted by Terence Blackett

JesuitsBy 1540, the Society of Jesus or the Jesuits as they are called were established with the principal function to win back the Protestant countries of Europe by any religio-political means necessary and to bring the World Order under the aegis of Vatican rule.

The underhanded working of the โ€œBlack Princeโ€ became diabolically subterranean and sinister. In its ethos, where its reach has now been felt for the last 460 years the โ€œdark forcesโ€ of the underworld planned, schemed, concocted and spun a web of lying intrigue and subterfuge to mask their evil deeds of deception. We know however that these malignant powers have been at work for thousands of years, mangling the world in its tentacles even long before this Order came of age.

The sinister timeline of Jesuit theology and its influence has been such that it has infected every nation, kindred, tongue and people. It has created storm clouds of the magnitude that 2 major world wars have been fought in its name resulting in what Edmond Paris describes as:

โ€œA great accumulation of clouds, where lightning is powerful and the storm is bound to break outโ€ฆ Between 1939 and 1945, the storm killed 57 million souls ravaging and ruining Europe. We must be on our guard; another and even worse catastrophe may lie hidden in these same clouds; lighting may strike again, throwing the world into “abysses human wisdom can foresee”, but out of which, if it had the misfortune to let itself be thrown into, no power (on earth) could rescue it.โ€ [Emphasis supplied is mine].

Modern Christianity has largely forgotten the importance of the Protestant Reformation of the 1500โ€™s. Moreover, its resemblance to the church set up by Christ at His ascension pales in comparison today for what passes off as the Christian faith.

After 1260 years of papal oppression, the church awoke after a deep, dense, dark night of sleep to realize that superstition was rife and the witness for Biblical truth that was slain and martyred was left for dead, lying in the streets in an age of reason โ€“ a Renaissance bolstered by a move away from feudalism to modernity. But the dawn of the light of the Reformation meant that the opening of prophetic revelation (once sealed up) had finally been opened.

On the scene of action came Martin Luther. It has been said that the Reformation first discovered Jesus Christ, and then, in the blazing light of Christ, it discovered the Antichrist. This mighty, Spirit-filled movement, for Christ and against the Antichrist, shook the world.

H. Grattan Guinness wrote these memorable words: โ€œFrom the first, and throughout, that movement [the Reformation] was energized and guided by the prophetic word. Luther never felt strong and free to war against the Papal apostasy till he recognized the pope as Antichrist. It was then that he burned the Papal bull (shit*) [Emphasis supplied is mine].

But the Jesuits answered!

โ€œIn the reaction that followed, all the powers of hell seemed to be let loose upon the adherents of the Reformation. War followed war: tortures, burnings, and massacres were multiplied.โ€

So in 1545 the Council of Trent was set up to counter the Reformation and ending its 3rd session in 1563 where the Catholic Church hierarchy gave the Jesuits the specific assignment of destroying Protestantism and bringing people back to the Mother Church. This was to be done not only through the Inquisition and through torture, but also through insidious and pervasive theology.

At the Council of Trent, the Jesuits were commissioned by the Pope to develop a new interpretation of Scripture that would counteract the Protestant application of the Bibleโ€™s Antichrist prophecies to the Roman Catholic Church. Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), a brilliant Jesuit priest and doctor of theology from Spain published a commentary on Revelation as a counter-interpretation to the prevailing view among Protestants which identified the Papacy with the Antichrist. Ribera applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. According to concocted Jesuit theology – The Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild Jerusalem at the end of time.

Ribera’s antithesis on the Protestant Scriptural Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2) as seated in the church of God โ€”asserted by Augustine, Jerome, Luther and many reformers was now dispelled and they set up an infidel Antichrist, outside the church of God. โ€œThe result of his work [Riberaโ€™s] was a twisting and maligning of prophetic truth.โ€

On the heels of Ribera was Jesuit scholar, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621). The (Futurism) teachings of these Jesuits has paved the way for much of present day Christian eschatology especially of the role that the Antichrist will play in world events in the Last Days – a damnable โ€œLIEโ€ perpetrated against the Holy Writ – Scriptures which clearly states that the โ€œspiritโ€ of Antichrist has always been in the world and Paul acknowledges that the โ€œman of sinโ€ would be revealed in the Apocalyptic discourse.

So Jesuit Futurism swept 1,500 years of prophetic history under the proverbial carpet by inserting its infamous โ€œGAPโ€ theory โ€“ a heresy which teaches that when Rome fell, prophecy stopped, only to continue again right around the time of the Rapture, thus the โ€œgapโ€ was created. The ten horns, the little horn, the Beast, and the Antichrist have nothing to do with Christians until this โ€œlast-day Antichristโ€ should appear. According to this viewpoint, there were no prophecies being fulfilled during the 1260 years of the Dark Ages!

However, it was during the 19th century that this Jesuit form of theology took on a spurious global dimension where the likes of Dr. Samuel Roffey Maitland (1792-1866), a lawyer and Bible scholar, became a librarian to the Archbishop of Canterbury and found Ribera doctrines and began to widely publish and advocate these deceptive teachings.

After Dr. Maitland came James H. Todd, a professor of Hebrew at the University of Dublin. Todd accepted the futuristic ideas of Maitland, publishing his own supportive pamphlets and books. Then came John Henry Newman (1801-1890), a member of the Church of England and a leader of the famous Oxford Movement (1833-1845). Newman soon became a full Roman Catholic, and later even a highly honored Cardinal. Then came the much-respected Scottish Presbyterian minister, Edward Irving (1792-1834), the acknowledged forerunner of both the Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements. When Irving turned to the prophecies, he eventually accepted the one-man Antichrist idea of Todd, Maitland, Bellarmine, and Ribera, yet he went a step further. Somewhere around 1830, Edward Irving began to teach the unique idea of a two-phase return of Christ, the first phase being a โ€œSECRET RAPTUREโ€ prior to the rise of the Antichrist.

Then came John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) – a brilliant lawyer, pastor, and theologian, who wrote more than 53 books on Bible subjects and is credited as the father of Dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is the theory that God deals with mankind in major dispensations or periods. Darbyโ€™s contribution to the development of evangelical theology has been so great that he like Edward Irving also became a strong promoter of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture followed by a one-man Antichrist. In fact, this teaching has become a hallmark of Dispensationalism. John Nelson Darby laid much of the foundation for the present popular removal of Danielโ€™s 70th week away from history and from Jesus Christ in favor of applying it to a future Tribulation after the Rapture.

The greatest of all these Jesuits subliminal adherents was Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921), a Kansas lawyer who was greatly influenced by the writings of Darby. In 1909, Scofield published the first edition of his famous Scofield Reference Bible. In the early 1900s, this Bible became so popular in American Protestant Bible schools that it was necessary to print literally millions of copies. This was the beginning of the end of American Protestant Christianity and a proper exegetical understanding of prophecy and the Scripture.

The Moody Bible Institute and the Dallas Theological Seminary have strongly supported the teachings of John Nelson Darby, and this has continued to fuel Futurismโ€™s growth. Then in the 1970s, Pastor Hal Lindsey, a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, released his blockbuster book The Late Great Planet Earth. This 177-page, easy-to-read volume brought Futurism to the masses of American Christianity, and beyond. 30 million copies later and in over 30 languages. Through The Late Great Planet Earth, Jesuit Futurism took a strong hold over the Protestant Christian world.

So in the 1990s, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins took the future one-man Antichrist idea of Scofield, Darby, Irving, Newman, Todd, Maitland, Bellarmine, and Ribera, and turned it into Blockbuster books and movies like Left Behind produced by Jack Van Impe, Peter and Paul Lalonde, and John Hagee. This has been the direction of American Protestant theology which has been pervasive across the globe for the last 30 years.

โ€œThe proper eschatological term for the view most widely taught today is futurism which fuels the confusion of Dispensationalism. The futuristic school of Bible prophecy came from the Roman Catholic Church, specifically her Jesuit theologians.โ€

Who has the right theologyโ€”those who were burned at the stake for Jesus Christ, or those who lit the fires? Who has the true Bible doctrineโ€”the martyrs or their persecutors? Who has the correct interpretation of the Antichristโ€”those who died trusting in the blood of Christ, or those who shed the blood of Godโ€™s dear saints? This is the real issue today in Christianityโ€ฆ

You be the judge!

(Much thanks to my friend Pastor Steve for his wonderful insightful knowledge and his literary references, contributions and wisdom).

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209 responses to “The Subliminal Deception Within Modern Christianity:- The Teachings Of Jesuit Theology And Its Influence Upon Bible Prophecy”


  1. @ Chris Halsall

    In the above footnote, Dick posted a PART and not all of the excerpt, only the part that would seem to go along with his ideas. Now read the passage in its entirety and tell me who is deceiving who.
    http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/News/DoSuitcaseNukesExist.html


  2. @Tech,

    Irrespective of whether such easily concealed ‘nukes’ exist, I am not clear how the “limited strikes” suggested by GEM and others of the ultra right wing mitigate the threat.


  3. Not Saved

    Not seen you around for a while.
    You wrote to Dictionary thus: Be a christian and think of others and keep your posts to a โ€˜politeโ€™ size.

    Could you kindly explain the relationship betwen one’s Christianity and the length of one’s posts?


  4. Onlookers:

    The above pattern over the past day or so is a classic example of the tactic of dragging a red herring across the track of truth, leading it out to a convenient strawman or two soaked in oil of personal attacks, and igniting them to cloud, poison and polarise the atmosphere.

    Such a stratagem too often succeeds in derailing a discussion or debate from looking at truths that are inconvenient tot he ones who resort to such closed minded, uncivil and often dishonest tactics. So, a main response is to draw our attention back to the truths that they would draw us away from. (NB: DV, I will pick up some brief corrective points on further objections. Note, too, the irresponsible pattern of secularist debaters above — and generally — simply letting corrected objections fall to the ground in silence as further objections are rushed on to, as though there is not a problem of slander to answer for. )

    Such as that in fact the Vatican state and its operatives in former centuries were indeed implicated in aggressive warfare and associated clandestine operations including assassination attempts; which did include members of the Jesuit order. Thus, its actions have made it a target for suspicion for centuries. However, in recent times, while there are many serous theological issues that may be debated, on fair comment the Vatican has not been a significant part of the sort of cloak and dagger nastiness that still dogs the more contentious parts of the world.

    The most important of these, however, is — surprise [NOT!] — the significance of suppressing the truth as a main focus of God’s judgement. (That is, contrary to earlier objections, from Rom 1 – 2, God does not so much judge one for merely failing to believe the right thing, as for resentfully rejecting the truth one knows or should know and following the way of evil as a result.)

    So, let us refocus on:

    +++++++++++

    RE: โ€œAm I the only one that thinks God must have a real cruel and sadistic streak for creating a system that says if you donโ€™t believe the right way, you are going to burn alive in hell for eternityโ€ and โ€œWhy should a GOD want me to be forever damned with Lucifer simply because I refused to believe.โ€

    Whenever we start pushing God into the dock, that is a point where our reasoning has gone off the rails!

    And, that is what is happening here, for there is a lot more to the story than the sort of unfortunately strawmanised, demonising and deeply polarised remarks just excerpted suggest.

    Perhaps we need to read Paul in Rom 1 โ€“ 2 a bit more carefully (and this, on all sides):

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people39 who suppress the truth by their40 unrighteousness,41 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them,42 because God has made it plain to them. 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes โ€“ his eternal power and divine nature โ€“ have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people43 are without excuse. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts44 were darkened . . . .

    2:5 But because of your stubbornness12 and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourselves in the day of wrath, when Godโ€™s righteous judgment is revealed!13

    2:6 He14 will reward15 each one according to his works:16 2:7 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality, 2:8 but17 wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition18 and do not obey the truth but follow19 unrighteousness . . . .

    2:14 For whenever the Gentiles,26 who do not have the law, do by nature27 the things required by the law,28 these who do not have the law are a law to themselves. 2:15 They29 show that the work of the law [i.e core morality, expressed in the principles of neighbour love] is written30 in their hearts, as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend31 them,32 2:16 on the day when God will judge33 the secrets of human hearts,34 according to my gospel35 through Christ Jesus. [NET Bible, with numbers for translation notes]

    a โ€“> Paul is pretty explicit that the big problem is resenting and rebelling against the truth we do or should know then substituting what we do or should know is a lie, and that God frowns on this.

    b โ€“> So the issue, first, cannot be that one is merely IGNORANT of relevant truth (especially as it is innate: โ€œyou unfair meโ€! we protest, testifying to the binding nature of moral truth).

    c โ€“> Instead, it is that of rebelling against the truth we know and where it points, e.g the fact of consciousness and mindedness points to the Source of mind. (And likewise the orderly organised balance of the world and of life in it point to the author thereof.)

    d โ€“> Likewise, our consciences crying out for justice โ€” including when we would put God in the Dock and cry out against real or apparent evils โ€” testify to the fact that we find ourselves morally obligated. This can only be grounded in a cosmos in which the ultimate reality is a Morally Just Creator so that good is reasonable and morally compelling as reasonable and fair, not arbitrary. Otherwise the is-ought gap swallows up the ought in the is.

    e โ€“> But things get hotter. For in Ch 2 Paul takes in the man who does not know enough to know Jesus and the gospel, or who misunderstands it, contrasting him to the one who rejects truth he knows or should know and lives by evil in darkness:

    Rom 2:6 He [God] will reward each one according to his works: 2:7 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality, 2:8 but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition18 and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness

    f โ€“> Here, we first see the ordinary man who by light of conscience โ€” and inevitably stumblingly so โ€” penitently perseveres in the path of good and truth, based on what he knows of good and God, by dint of nature, prophets, wise teachers, philosophers, scripture or even the manifest presence and power of the gospel. (The attitude is instantly recognisable, and so is its opposite.)

    g โ€“> The scripture is plain that to such God gives eternal life: >>Rom 2:6 He [God] will reward each one according to his works: 2:7 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality >>

    h โ€“> Very simple, but so very easy to lose sight of: God is fair and loving, so he will save anyone he can. If you walk in the truth and the right you know or should โ€” important caveat! โ€” know, penitently and persistently getting up when you err or stumble, God will receive you with open arms.

    i โ€“> Such salvation is based on his lovingly and freely offered self-sacrifice by which he took our self-destroying sin into his own self and expiated its consequences and penalty. (The exchange is explicit in many cases, implicit in others [e.g Abraham, Melchizedek, Job, Moshe, David . . . many others down to today who may not have a clear access to a higher — much less, the highest — degree of truth or light ], but it is the basis for salvation and eternal life.)

    j โ€“> But, not all turn to the good and walk in the path of the right and the truth, however stumblingly. Some โ€” sadly โ€” rebel even against the undeniable voice of mind and conscience. Others are willing to follow any rhetoric that excuses them in sin and in untruth, some even going so far as to actively suppress the truth they know or should know; up to and including in the case of those who have heard the gospel and have effective access to the compelling evidence of its truth. [This includes the millions all around us and over the years who have met and come to know the real God in the face of Jesus and have had their lives transformed by the resulting release of resurrection power through the “great and precious promises” of the scriptures. (Advice: a little humble listening to people who however ill-educated and lacking in eloquence actually know God, would save many of us the highly educated a lot of grief here and in eternity.)]

    k โ€“> For good reason, rebels against the truth and the right face a very different fate.

    l โ€“> And, it is such who need to heed the stern warnings Paul also gives: >>2:8 but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness >>

    __________

    So, commentators and onlookers:

    1: what is the truth and the right that you know or should know?

    2: Are you seeking to turn to it and live by it, however much you stumble and must regret it and get up and try again?

    3: Or, are you resisting the truth and following evil, in rage against what you know you should do?

    That is the issue we must all face.
    +++++++++++

    And that is the main issue we must bear in mind as we address whatever particular points are necessary.

    D


  5. Yardbroom

    Your comment on December 15, 2009 at 4:32 AM is noteworthy, more so than most of the nonsense on this thread so far in response tio the opening article- but I guess that this is the accepted norm on BU!

    You have hit the nail on the head. There is so much Religion— which is essentially any method by which men try to appease their god, whether it is the Almighty, or to an idol of their own making (c.f Psalm 115)

    Religion per se if so little consequence that the word โ€œreligion) appears only five times in the whole Bible, and never really in a savoury way! (c.f Act 26:5, Gal 1:13, Gal 1:14, Jam 1:26, Jam 1:27. Religion in all of these verses is something that men DO! It is of WORKS and not of GRACE By FAITH in the shed blood of Christ on the cross.

    People who truly believe in Christ as Savior and who are not depending on their WORKS for salvation tend to exhibit love. They are not at all perfection as Romans and Hebrews make it plain that true believers are struggling towards spiritual maturity (translated perfect or perfection 9 times in Hebrews).

    Since religion per se does not โ€œbreed โ€œ or spawn love is there any wonder that as you correctly opine โ€œThere is so much Religion and so little โ€œloveโ€ in the world?โ€

    Neither the world system (the cosmos diabolicus) described in 1 John 1:15-17 or religion will be โ€œtransformed into love for each otherโ€ since both are about self! And both will be ultimately destroyed as destroyed in Revelation 17 &18!

    Note that there is also a tendency in Barbados to call a โ€œdenominationโ€ a โ€œreligion.โ€

    Hope this helps a bit.


  6. Now, on various side points that require a responsible note or two:

    1] Length vs substance:

    It is far quicker and easier to state an objection, especially when it is an irresponsible distraction, distortion and demonisation attack, than it is to responsibly address an issue and correct said objection(s).

    But, as was just pointed out; in the end we are accountable for the truth and the right we know or — even more important — should know. So, the time for irresponsible rhetoric is long since past.

    2] What you fail to admit (or perhaps, understand) is that creating the spherical implosion around the โ€œsingle critical mass of plutonium (or U-233) at maximum density under normal conditionsโ€ using high explosives and precisely timed triggers is a non-trivial problem . . .

    Irrelevancy. We are dealing — on the report of the guardian tracing to the IAEA’s inquiry on Iranian reports disclosed under international pressure — with two-point LINEAR implosion designs, esp. with fusion boost; which designs are much easier to do once you have the ideas, than multi-point spherical implosion designs. We should also note, onlookers, that Pakistan’s first nuke test was of a fusion boosted design. Some of the Pakistanis involved were running a nuke technology supermarket. And, of course, a major part of the current interest in Iran is that by the turn of the new year, from their known centrifuge programme they will have enough HEU to go for the first bomb.

    And of course the capability to master such technical issues as were raised was precisely the point of my referring to my old prof who ran the Iranian nuke physics reactor and research programme under the days of the Shah. (It should be noted, too, that as a part of the Atoms for peace programme in the 1950’s, many of the key documents on the Manhattan project were made available in the 1950’s.)

    2] In all of Dicks post, I am yet to see PROOF that the suit case nuke he speaks of exists. All we read are suppositions and maybes.

    Here the objector refuses to simply read the already relinked and cited Guardian article on what the Iranian documents have stated and led the IAEA to inquire upon. He also fails to recognise that his is a part of a broad pattern of behaviours that together make it clear that within a few months now, Iran will credibly be over the nuke threshold, in a context where for 30 years it has been a major global sponsor of terrorism. Not to mention the implications of its Mahdist Islamism that envisions global conquest; with Iran playing a vanguard role.

    As to the existence of the class of warheads in question: they have been in use since the 1950’s in various guises — artillery shells (down to 5 – 8 inch diameter shells), at least one rocket weapon, nuke mines, demolition weapons. This last class credibly includes footlocker, knapsack and suitcase formats. (In the most simplistic sense — and as a US Congressman demonstrated on TV on the eventing of the 9/11 attacks — a nuke shell can easily fit in a suitcase or even a fat format attache case.)

    3] Dick posted a PART and not all of the excerpt, only the part that would seem to go along with his ideas. Now read the passage in its entirety and tell me who is deceiving who.

    Having already cited the relevant part to demonstrate the plain feasibility of the technology, I have no further need to elaborate on the debate as to whether the KGB actually implemented a class of 600 suitcase based nukes.

    In short, this is a clear instance of the turnabout false accusation rhetorical tactic; which is of course a slander. And, on that point, T has in this thread reiterated already corrected slanders from a previous thread. As already linked in this thread.

    4] Irrespective of whether such easily concealed โ€˜nukesโ€™ exist, I am not clear how the โ€œlimited strikesโ€ suggested by [redacted] and others of the ultra right wing mitigate the threat.

    First, note the gratuitous assertion of “ultra right wing” politics. In today’s world, properly, that is anarchism; and I am no anarchist but a convinced democrat. (This is in fact a demonising and dismissive way of saying that I do not line up with strong form statism and associated state control of the means of production, distribution, exchange and information etc; often in the name of helping the poor and oppressed. Historically, whether in the communist, radical socialist or fascist forms, such statism has consistently led to economic chaos and tyrannical oppression; over the last 100 years accounting for over 100 millions dead. in milder forms, the failure of the postwar social welfare state was so manifest by the turn of the 1980’s that today’s UK Labour party is classified as conservative on at least one major metric of the political spectrum!)

    next, I happento thingk tha the surest way to guarantee a major nuke threshold war soon from now is to fail to have a serious negotiating stance now — actually, over the past several years — backed by a credible seriousness that would force [have forced] the Iranians to deal with the matter seriously before it got out of hand.

    I expect (and am concerned) that — on the current track — in a matter of months, the situation is very likely to boil over; which is not at all the same thing as promoting strikes. I hope I am wrong in that expectation, and I hope that the Iranian leadership will belatedly come to their senses when they realise that their Arab neighbours, e.g. Egypt, Saudi Arabia and some of the Emirates, are collaborating with Israel to facilitate air and submarine [precision cruise missile] strikes and maybe targetted commando raids.

    I do note that a limited programme of such strikes that knock out key elements of the Iranian weapons programme, might buy us back a few years. This is not at all a desirable outcome, but it is probably better than the increasingly likely third possibility of waking up one morning to news headlines announcing the birth of the age of suicide nuke bombings. [It should be noted that on 9/11, many of the major policy and media figures were very afraid that that day had already arrived.]

    And if we do wake up on such a morning of horror, onlookers, you can rest assured that those who spent years agitating to hinder the sort of negotiation from strength that would have averted the problem will be very busy distracting us from their contribution to the problem.

    _____________

    Let us think soberly, and discuss civilly on the merits.

    D


  7. Footnote:

    On a subsidiary point.

    Much of the original post is taken up with debate points and assertions on several eschatological and linked movements in theology over the past 150 or so years. in addressing these, TB on the whole simply tars the thinking with the brush of claimed antecedents in Roman Catholic thought.

    The basic problem with that is that much of Christian theology has passed through the various Doctors and Councils of the church across the ages, many of whom/which can be tagged as “Catholic.” For that matter, many of the monks who copied and transmitted the text of the scriptures over the years can be similarly tagged Catholic. The leading theologians of the reformation were of course trained under Catholic auspices too.

    In short, if one simply attacks sources, one can dismiss almost anything. Instead, we need to focus on the merits and assess the relevant degree of warrant.

    When we do so, we will rapidly see:

    a –> The text of the NT and OT scriptures (on the fruit of 200 or so years of serious textual scholarship) is authentic, and is well preserved at all essential points.

    b –> Core creedal theology, e.g as preserved in the 325 and 381 Nicene creed, is manifestly based on the Scriptures. [E.g. that creed is in large part basically an augmented version of what is taught in 1 Cor 15:1 – 11, with background materials.)

    c –> While there have been many views on and particular suggested scenarios for eschatology over the years, by and large these have been argued on at least attempted exegesis, rather than blind following of any one source or position.

    d –> Indeed, the much derided Schofield Reference Bible — cf the collection of notes here [NB: eSWORD – and the 3rd party books and tools — will allow you to create an electronic version free, and will allow you to compile a free collection (worth US$ 1,000’s) of classic dictionaries, commentaries and reference works that would allow you to explore the issues in details for yourself] — is a major semipopular attempt at such exegesis!

    e –> It would well repay the interested reader to familiarise him/her self with several major NT texts on eschatology: Matt 24, Acts 1 – 2, 17, 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess, 2 Peter 3, Rev. Key OT books and texts would include Daniel, Zechariah, Ezekiel 35 – 39 etc. Suffice to say that a full bore study is an effort that takes years.

    f –> However, for our practical striking a balance purposes, one can first focus on a much narrower scope of key passages, here using the open source NET Bible:

    24:3 As7 he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, โ€œTell us, when will these things8 happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?โ€ 24:4 Jesus answered them,9 โ€œWatch out10 that no one misleads you. 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, โ€˜I am the Christ [i.e. anointed deliverer],โ€™11 and they will mislead many . . .. 24:11 And many false prophets will appear and deceive20 many, 24:12 and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold. 24:13 ,b>But the person who endures to the end will be saved.21 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations,22 and then the end will come.

    Acts 1:6 So when they [the disciples with the risen Jesus during the 40 days in which he was present with them] had gathered together, they began to ask him,20 โ€œLord, is this the time when you are restoring the kingdom to Israel?โ€ 1:7 He told them, โ€œYou are not permitted to know21 the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the farthest parts22 of the earth.โ€ 1:9 After23 he had said this, while they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud hid him from their sight. 1:10 As24 they were still staring into the sky while he was going, suddenly25 two men in white clothing stood near them 1:11 and said, โ€œMen of Galilee, why do you stand here26 looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven27 will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.โ€

    1 Cor 15: 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 15:21 For since death came through a man,11 the resurrection of the dead also came through a man.12 15:22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.13 15:24 Then14 comes the end,15 when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 15:26 The last enemy to be eliminated is death.

    1 Thess 4:13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed,14 brothers and sisters,15 about those who are asleep,16 so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that17 God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians.18 4:15 For we tell you this by the word of the Lord,19 that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel,20 and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left,21 will be suddenly caught up22 together23 with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. 4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

    Heb 6:1 . . . we must progress beyond1 the elementary2 instructions about Christ3 and move on4 to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God, 6:2 teaching about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

    2 Peter 3:3 Above all, understand this:8 In the last days blatant scoffers9 will come, being propelled by their own evil urges10 3:4 and saying,11 โ€œWhere is his promised return?12 For ever since13 our ancestors14 died,15 all things have continued as they were16 from the beginning of creation.โ€ 3:5 For they deliberately suppress this fact,17 that by the word of God18 heavens existed long ago and an earth19 was formed out of water and by means of water. 3:6 Through these things20 the world existing at that time was destroyed when it was deluged with water. 3:7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, by being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. [Cf here the remarks already excerpted from Rom 1 – 2 on just how God will deal with the ungodly.]

    g –> Without getting into eschatological scenario speculation and the temptation to set dates and over-read trends, we can see a clear pattern in the above: Jesus’ coming marked a new departure in God’s dealings with man, and in the power of the Spirit the gospel goes to the nations in the teeth of chaos, resistance to the truth and deception caused by sinful rebellion against God. this will culminate in the parousia, in which Jesus will establish God’s realm over all rebellion — the steps are a matter of details. And, once that is done, he will bring us to account before the bar of eternal judgement, the dead rising to account before God.

    h –> Without going into too many details, it should be clear that the gospel is indeed approaching that climax globally, and many other prophetic signs are lining up to suggest we are quite close now. (And if the prophecies of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ came to pass, e.g. cf Isaiah 53, then we can have confidence in onward prophecies; especially those of us who have found that in and through the Scriptures we meet God in power in the face of Christ. never mind the mockers who are inadvertently proving the accuracy of the same prophecies . . . ]

    i –> In the context of the various deceptions, it is worth pausing to note on the chief of all such deceivers:

    2 Thess 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes6 and the man of lawlessness7 is revealed, the son of destruction.8 2:4 He9 opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, and as a result he takes his seat10 in Godโ€™s temple, displaying himself as God.11 2:5 Surely you recall12 that I used to tell you these things while I was still with you. 2:6 And so13 you know what holds him back,14 so that he will be revealed in his own time. 2:7 For the hidden power of lawlessness15 is already at work. However, the one who holds him back16 will do so until he is taken out of the way, 2:8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord17 will destroy by the breath of his mouth and wipe out by the manifestation of his arrival. 2:9 The arrival of the lawless one18 will be by Satanโ€™s working with all kinds of miracles19 and signs and false wonders, 2:10 and with every kind of evil deception directed against20 those who are perishing, because they found no place in their hearts for the truth21 so as to be saved. 2:11 Consequently22 God sends on them a deluding influence23 so that they will believe what is false. 2:12 And so24 all of them who have not believed the truth but have delighted in evil will be condemned.

    j –> So, we know enough to see our duty to receive the gospel, and to carry it forward in the power of the Spirit to all nations; refusing to be taken in by mockers and deceivers. And, we can see that in the culmination, the systems of deception will have many a champion, including an ultimate one who will set himself up as if he were God. But such a one, God will overthrow.

    k –> And so, in light of our accountability before God let frst and foremost us listen to what Acts 17 counsels:

    Acts 17:26 From one man91 he made every nation of the human race92 to inhabit the entire earth,93 determining their set times94 and the fixed limits of the places where they would live,95 17:27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around96 for him and find him,97 though he is98 not far from each one of us. 17:28 For in him we live and move about99 and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, โ€˜For we too are his offspring.โ€™100 17:29 So since we are Godโ€™s offspring, we should not think the deity101 is like gold or silver or stone, an image102 made by human103 skill104 and imagination.105 17:30 Therefore, although God has overlooked106 such times of ignorance,107 he now commands all people108 everywhere to repent,109 17:31 because he has set110 a day on which he is going to judge the world111 in righteousness, by a man whom he designated,112 having provided proof to everyone by raising113 him from the dead.โ€ [Of course, with 500+ witnesses.]

    ____________

    We may not have all the light we would desire to satisfy our curiosity and answer tot he speculations out there, but we have more than enough to guide us to our plain duty in light of well-warranted truth under God.

    G’day

    D


  8. PS: I cannot resist just one point of interest. On several converging studies [e.g. on historic water flow levels and the line of sight from a herodian palace into the temple sacrifice processing area) it seems that the actual location of the temple is south of the site of the Dome of the Rock; i.e. it is possible to build the temple without destroying that Muslim edifice built on what was then thought to be the site of the temple. [NB: Conquering Islamic armies and rulers had a habit of setting up mosques on such holy sites; which has sparked many conflicts in recent years, esp. in India.]


  9. Dearest Lord,
    teach me to be generous;
    teach me to serve You as You deserve;
    to give and not to count the cost,
    to fight and not to heed the wounds,
    to toil and not to seek for rest,
    to labour and not to ask for reward
    save that of knowing I am doing Your Will


  10. Amen

    [PS: The prayer is that of Ignatius Loyola.]


  11. Footnote: A sobering read on the ME situation; by someone who has done his homework.


  12. Technician // December 15, 2009 at 11:06 AM. “Holy WordPress!! Like moths to the flame !!”

    How true, how true. Are you seriously telling me that Dictionary is actually allowed to teach young minds? Hopefully it is only in a mental ward for incurable cases – like him and the rest of the contents of the Bat Cave. I have rarely come across anyone so filled with hate.


  13. Well, I was not going to venture into posting on the religious aspect, but as the thread has evolved into one of the Middle East situation and potential outcome.

    Of course the Middle East is about to blow.

    It is fairly simple to understand. Not only do we have the religious situation which is inherent to the issue, but two words compound the issue.

    Oil, control.

    We have the oil situation worsening and the countries in question generally hold the most reserves.

    We have the western economies and by extension, the international economies, going to hell in a handbasket and this is continuing, despite anything else that you might read.

    The logistics of the oil issue and the impact of economic forces will be as a catalyst to the religion and power issue, bringing the situation to a head.

    Then, all of us will have to bear the fallout, of both military methods and economic.

    It shall not be pretty.

    And, it is not too far off.

    On a lighter note (if there can be one in such a situation) maybe, just maybe, the debt issue may not be an issue after all.

    If the world is in a handbasket, who will be thinking about debt?

    Only survival will matter.

    Get your fishing boats and hope there are fish left, get our water infrastructure up to shape, may not be able to buy plumbing installations and supplies for a while, get our food production both animal and vegetable up to shape, get our transport off oil reliance, if possible, as much as possible.

    All the result of one big, Bashment.

    Sorry, as the cartoons say, ‘that’s all folks’.


  14. I’ve dedicated the rest of my life to living even closer to the principles of God than I was living before. In so doing I live by the simple method of love for God and my neighbour. The reason why this world is in crisis right now is just greed and unless we get back to Godly principles, it will get worse. We have too many academically educated people in this world but few with common sense.


  15. @ Crusoe 5:47 A.M.

    Words of great wisdom sir.


  16. After all that and more BS above, we are yet to see the Proof that these nukes exists, are ready to be used , to justify a strike in Iran.

    Look carefully and tell me who is dragging the strawmen, this time soaked in biblical rhetoric , to distract and confuse others, this man is a piece of work .
    It is so scary when you see what educated people with obvious agendas can do to this world….and some have the gall to call him a messenger!!
    In less than 100 words can you please post the EVIDENCE OF THE EXSISTANCE OF THE SUITCASE SIZED NUKES IN IRAN, WHICH WOULD JUSTIFY A STRIKE ON THAT COUNTRY.

    I dun wid you man !!


  17. Onlookers:

    Having side tracked the thread, T now wishes to complain against restoring its focus.

    D

    PS: Technician is also simply being stubbornly closed minded and abusive. He knows or should know the Iranians have documented to the IAEA [under international pressure] that they have tested the explosive components — the part that makes such a bomb work — of a two detonation point linear implosion weapon. The ONLY use of such a test is to prepare for building such a weapon; i.e. this is proof of intent. Such weapons have one significant use: mini nukes, delivered by artillery, or by small missiles and rockets, or by emplacement. (The last class would be well suited to suicide terrorist attacks and are variously called knapsack, suitcase or footlocker nukes.) As a signatory to the NPT, Iran’s solemn commitment is to not develop such, subject to international sanction; and this in a context where Iran has repeatedly threatened to wipe out a member country of the UN and has been a leading sponsor of terrorism for the past 30 years, including suicide bombing campaigns.


  18. All this from a man who champions truth but quotes from the Gaurdian.
    Take a look at their track record on lies and deceit before and after 9/11….no wonder though…birds of a feather.

    ya good Dick…but not that good.
    You have the floor because in my simple, laymans mind….I see you for what you really are and I am sure I am not alone.
    See you on judgement day…Goodbye!!


  19. Onlookers:

    Again our man would side-track.

    I will inform.

    The Guardian is a well known LEFT-WING newspaper in the UK; one that was well known for its opposition to the recent interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc. So, we are here looking at potentially embarrassing admissions against interest; inherently highly unlikely to be made falsely.

    It is here citing an IAEA report on documents to them from the Iranians.

    What is really going on is the fallacy of selective hyperskepticism, where one (often militantly and too often abusively) professes not to know what is inconvenient to one’s agendas, then throws up barrier after barrier to object; where if one were to consistently apply said barriers, the result would be to collapse the entire class of comparable knowledge claims.

    And of course this underlying mind-endarkening, self-deceiving attitude is precisely the attitude that the Spirit-inspired Paul addresses in Rom 1 – 2.

    So, we can see the suggestively obscene short form for Dictionary, the resort to slander, the selective hyperskepticism etc and such like for what they sadly are. Especially when we can ever so easily see an utter want of substantial contribution for several threads now.

    Pray for this mind- endarkened man, and those who are like him.

    G’day

    Dictionary


  20. Georgie,

    Yes I do not always have the time to spend here !

    I will answer your question in reverse:

    – Long book length posts are often considered “impolite” in the blogosphere.

    – Think of others before being impolite and inconvenient to them.

    – I understand “thinking of others” is a virtue often promoted by christian teachers, ministers etc.

    You can correct me on the last point.


  21. @Dictionary

    No doubt we will get the discussion back on track but Technician is trying to establish an important point.

    Question from BU is why did Scott Ritter et al in the position he did as a UN weapons inspector for 14 years argue that Iraq had no significant WMDs? Certainly not enough to merit throwing the world in economic and religious turmoil.


  22. @D,

    “happento thingk tha the surest way to guarantee a major nuke threshold war soon from now is to fail to have a serious negotiating stance now”

    —-

    How are strikes necessary to a “serious negotiating stance”?

    Is Iran unaware of US military capability?

    Does threatening strikes encourage or discourage a country to secure weapons?

    ++++

    “I do note that a limited programme of such strikes that knock out key elements of the Iranian weapons programme, might buy us back a few years. ”

    —–

    How can such strikes “knock out” key elements? Is this a reasonable proposition?

    What if there are a 100 suitcase facilities and your “strike” is 99% effective, does this not leave us with one leveled western city in retaliation?

    How many innocents lost would justify the time bought, if any?

    How do we (the west) condemn terrorism and then practice it?

    ++++

    And for the man who scolds anyone for “distractive comments”…

    “the failure of the postwar social welfare state was so manifest by the turn of the 1980โ€™s that todayโ€™s UK Labour party is classified as conservative”

    —-

    What parts of the postwar social welfare state have been dismantled by either party since the 1980s?

    – National Insurance?
    – National Health?
    – Universal Child benefit?
    – National assistance?

    What has failed and been removed?


  23. @Anon, Dec 16, 09 @5:01 AM.

    Technician December 15, 2009, at 11:06AM. “Holy WordPress!! Like moths to the flame!!”

    ‘…Are you seriously telling me that Dictionary is actually allowed to teach young minds? Hopefully it is only in a mental ward for incurable cases – like him and the rest of the contents of the Bat Cave. I have rarely come across anyone so filled with hate.”

    To you and those of your ilk, the Word of God, says:

    “Woe unto them that call *evil* good, and *good* evil; that put *darkness* for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter.” (Isa. 5: 20). emphasis added.

    You, Technician et al, are classic examples of what Jesus said would come forth from those of your mind-set.

    There are numerous references to the *enmity* *hostility* and *opposition* which the world displays toward Christ, the believer, and the Church of Jesus, He said:

    “The world…*HATES* Me because I testify of IT that its *works* are EVIL” (John 7:7). He also made it clear that the world *hates* His disciples because they are not of of it (John. 15: 18-19). Emphasis added.

    For you to read into Dictionary’s deep, abiding, well-founded, carefully articulated concerns for so many things that are wrong, evil, and pose such dire consequences for ALL of us, as ‘…so filled with hate.’ blatantly confirms how ‘spiritually’ and intellectually *BLINDED* you are!!!

    But, IF the Creator of the Universe and Only Saviour of mankind, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST be called “Beelzebub’ by those who rejected and HATED Him, then, it follows, as He said it would, that Dictionary and those of us who are His disciples will likewise be scorned and hated like Him.

    Hear Jesus:

    “A disciple is not above His teacher, nor a servant above his Master.”

    “It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his *Master*. If they have CALLED the Master of the house Bellzebub, HOW MUCH MORE they will call those of His household. Therefore, do NOT fear them. For there IS nothing covered that will NOT be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.” (Matt. 10: 24-26) emphasis added.

    The Lamp of YOUR body IS in DARKNESS!

    Jesus said:

    “The lamp of the body is the eye. IF therefore your eye IS good, your whole body will be FULL of light. BUT, if your eye is BAD, your whole body WILL be FULL of *DARKNESS*. IF therefore the light that IS IN YOU, is *DARKNESS* how GREAT is that DARKNESS!” (Matt. 6:22) emphasis added.

    Anon, you are of your ‘father’ who leads and fills you with such utter distortion of TRUTH, as he HAS always done with those who REJECT the true LIGHT of this world, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!


  24. @Zoe..

    You were once a devout Catholic, now you despise them.
    What will you be next?
    When will your religious evolution end?


  25. Dictionary, Let us not forget the *Leftists* DENIAL-EXCUSE- JUSTIFICATION syndrome of the likes of Technician, NS, etc, and the game(s) they play.

    These ‘Lefties’ even though some of them DON’T even understrand what they are supporting, nevertheless, cling to their underying Marxist conviction, that capitalism IS evil and that forces of revolution are rising to overthrow it, and IT must be supported, i.e., Iran, and the self-styled socialist revolutionary Hugo Chavez, the president of Venezuela, who perhaps best exemplifies the forging of a red-green alliance on the international stage.

    Chavez’s unrelenting *hated* of globalization and of America, has led him to adopt the *death* cult of Iran, as an energy partner, and to defend it against what he describes as ‘the most perverse, muderous, genocidal immoral empire that this planet has known on one hundred centuries.’

    Surely, by now, it must be known, as journalist Christopher Brown reports, Iranian geologists “are working with a team of chevez loyalists in the exploration for *urnanium* deposits within Venezuela.” Such an alliance could very well lead to the emergence of a nuclear Islamist state, bent on destroying Isreal and America. Chavez has also reached out in solidarity to *Hizbollah*, proving funds and refuge to the terrorist Islamist organization.

    There IS the most crucial commonalities between the *Leftists* AND the Islamic fundamentalists, the hatred of individual freedom and of the individual himself. In today’s romance with Islamism, as in the twentieth century romance with communism and fascism, the *Leftist* must CONCEAL his own malicious agenda, as seem here on BU, from others, and from himself. This is cleaverly cloaked in the needed camouflage with a pattern of behaviour, the denial-excuse-justification syndrome.

    In light of the OVERTLY declared INTENTION of Hamas, Hezbollah, and that mad-man in Iran, THAT Israel must NOT exist, it must be annihilated from the face of the earth, JUST, give us enough TIME, and America will go too, just give US a little more time, to develop our NUKE’s and NOT SAVED, continues to ask silly questions, over and over again, such as:

    “…I am not clear how the ‘limited strikes’ suggested by GEM and others of the ultra right wing mitigate the threat.”

    Which planet NS are you living on? You don’t have a clue what is really going on, and after all that has been posted over the months, on this ME subject matter, the vehement intent, expressed NOT only in the Hamas charter THAT their agenda IS to annihilate Israel, coupled witnb AH-MAD-DINE-JAD’s equally declared intent toward Israel, Chavez’s alliance with Iran, and their HATED for Israel and America, AND you STILL don’t get IT!


  26. @Zoe…

    Thank you for your immediate above.

    It explains a great deal of your et al motivation and actions….


  27. chris is a leftist buddhist scientist
    and zoe is snot


  28. Dictionary, Let us not forget the *Leftists* DENIAL-EXCUSE- JUSTIFICATION syndrome of the likes of Technician, NS, etc, and the game(s) they play.

    Wow….Dick would rather go to war (strikes on a sovereign nation) on the premise of a notion,suppositions ad maybes, rather than a fact.
    These strike would most certainly lead to retaliation by Iran (which I suspect is what he and others would love to see).
    This, in turn would then justify what ever response comes next.
    The killing of thousands of innocent people doesnt worry them a bit (collateral damage) even though it would be done without PROOF.

    Dick is always admonishing us to learn from our mistakes but has he or others of his ilk learnt from theirs?

    Whatever your agendas, prove that Iran has tested and possesses suitcase nukes and that the threat of their use is imminent before we go off on another unnecessary war just to appease a religious agenda.
    Now tell me, who has this so called DENIAL-EXCUSE- JUSTIFICATION syndrome?
    @Z0e..

    It is amazing that the very people who might be able to impliment regime change are the very ones you and your cohorts are ready to slaughter at a lie at best….such christian like behavior.


  29. Only the dead have seen the end of war!!


  30. @ Technician // December 16, 2009 at 12:33 PM

    @Zoe..

    You were once a devout Catholic, now you despise them.
    What will you be next?
    When will your religious evolution end?
    ========================

    Techie ma boy. This is nothing new. There are many once devout Catholics, who upon salvation despise the regime that enslaved and blinded their eyes. I have heard many ex-Catholics say this; and there are many books around with testimonies of folk who converted from this “religion”, and this religion.

    (Words carefully chosen there OK?


  31. @Technician: “…prove that Iran has tested and possesses suitcase nukes…

    It is *known* that Iran has never “lit off” a nuke. Let alone a suitcase nuke… Hell, they don’t even have enough centrifuges to reach the purity required…

    You don’t really think all those sensors (and all that money) watching for earthquakes are there only to measure earthquakes?

    Do you?


  32. @Chris…

    No…i didnt think so….lol.

    @GP…

    My point exactly.


  33. Stick with the DLP and suffer or turn-on to the BLP and prosper

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Do you want to be out of a job and on the bread-line; deeper in debt; deeper in poverty and deeper in crisis with a tired-DLP-Government that does not know what it is doing? Then, secure your future!!!

    Give the competent, experienced and skilled Team of the Barbados Labour Party the chance to put Barbados back on track. Why settle for the bronze?

    Protect your pockets and your bank account from the DLP, which imposes high taxes and confiscates what little to poor have, while quick to give the rich millions.

    The time is right to give Barbados a chance to be better than it was between 1994 and 2008 – when there was much prosperity.

    IT WOULD BE THE CHRISTIAN THING TO DO, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE DLP HAS CANCELLED CHRISTMAS THIS YEAR!!!


  34. @ Dictionary:

    So, commentators and onlookers:

    1: what is the truth and the right that you know or should know?

    2: Are you seeking to turn to it and live by it, however much you stumble and must regret it and get up and try again?

    3: Or, are you resisting the truth and following evil, in rage against what you know you should do?

    That is the issue we must all face.
    +++++++++++

    Is this not what you have on your blog? Are you trying to set the agenda here too? cheupse


  35. David:

    There is a legitimate question, but the answer is not as simplistic as many imagine; and it is easily caricatured by those willing to play red herring strawman and ad hominem tactics to poison the genral atmosphere of discussion. (As blog owner, you must by now realise that when the tone deteriorates beyond a certain point, the blog becomes of no use to those who want to deal with serious matters responsibly. And that is a predictable consequence of the patterns we see already in this thread, if they are unchecked.).

    With serious reservations on the tangentiality of this topic as noted, I comment for record [not debate] because you ask:

    a –> We need to first recall that it is reasonably in evidence that Iraq had for years been in gross violation of its ARMISTICE — not peace treaty [i.e. a state of war continued to exist from 1990/91 on, and you will recall a steady stream of relatively low level hostilities . . . e.g. that Iraq did not shoot down overflying jets patrolling the no-fly zones set up to protect Kurds and groups in the south SH had tried to massacre in the aftermath of the first ground campaigns had to do with lack of capacity, not lack of attempts ] — including among other items, failure to comply with reasonable inspection and destruction of known efforts towards WMDs.

    b –> In the context of material and growing violations, Iraq had set up a definite offshore nuclear weapons development programme in Libya, and from Sada’s remarks and other pointers, may have contributed to another in Syria. (You will doubtless recall that an Israeli shadowing sub spotted shipments into Libya and under pressure Ghaddafi backed down post the 2003 resurgence of large scale campaigning. A bit under 2 years ago now, the Israelis knocked out the Syrian plant, on the side of Syria nearish to Iraq and Turkey. North Korea — the horse that got out of the barn already — was also implicated.)

    c –> Iraq under Mr Hussein had also managed to convert the oils for food etc programme into an international bribery scheme to the certain tune of billions; a scheme that perverted the very sanctions enforcement regime. [This BTW included specifically bribing Russian, French (and I believe too, Chinese) officials of influence on the international positions of these key veto holding members of the UNSC.]

    d –> Notwithstanding, the pattern of Iraqi behaviour and dealings over the period led the international community of intelligence agencies to the consensus that Iraq was continuing its WMD efforts, on bio, chem and nuc components, as well as missiles of range beyond armistice terms.

    e –> In this context of in-Iraq and offshore violations and bribery induced distortions of the international system of sanctions meant to keep Iraq in check, Iraq then proceeded to produce patently false declarations when the UNSC asked for documentation on the accurate status quo, and for the return of a credible inspections regime.

    f –> Under such circumstances, strictly, the primary responsibility for the resumption of major hostilities is that of the Hussein regime. So, even if there were no contraband WMD programmes on the ground in Iraq, the intervention on material violation and plain intent to continue was arguably justified. (NB: What distorts our ability to understand this, is that we are conditioned by our own bitter colonial past to see the West as the locus of evils in the world; and the dominance of leftism and related ideologies in the intelligentsia of the West also reinforces that view through influential spokesmen and the tendency of major international media; e.g. BBC, CNN etc. As Aristotle warned, our judgements when we are pained and hostile differ form those we make when we are in a happier frame of mind. But, we need to learn some lessons from the history of Europe in the 1930’s that are simply not to be found in our headlines, movies, documentaries and declarations by pundits.)

    g –> So, despite what Mr Ritter et al suggest — or what such may be sound bited and headlined as saying — there was considerable evidence of an onward contraband WMD programme in and surrounding Iraq; starting with missiles of ranges beyond the armistice limit, and going on to evidence of components and programmes to develop the three main classes of WMDs.

    h –> What was not found [to date — remember the MiGs that turned up when a sandstorm blew the covering dunes off . . . Iraq is the size of France or California] was for instance an assembled nuke, or a built up stockpile of fresh chemical shells [older ones were found] or weaponised anthrax devices, etc. But failure to date to find such end products are not at all the same as the continuation of a contraband programme coupled to a weakening sanctions regime that would in months to a few years have passed the point of no return.

    i –> Pre-emption of such under the violation of armistice is at least arguably warranted, especially given the known, sustained track record of aggression, oppression and mass murder by Mr Hussein.

    j –> Of course the manner of implementation of the return to large scale operations is another question, and the handling of the aftermath of defeat of the Baathists is another; for the situation was clearly allowed to spiral out of control. (Suffice to say that the ultimate strategic success of the surge in the last years of Mr Bush’s regime shows that once events had spiralled out of control, it took time to build up the support base [e.g. Anbar Awakening] and the techniques that could trigger a breakthrough campaign. But, war is full of errors and horrible incidents and costs; and, its course is inherently hard to predict and often costly beyond what may at first be imagined. That is why it is a foretaste of hell.)
    ___________

    This brings up the wider issue that was discussed in an earlier thread, on the justification of the use of the sword by the state. (And, note that the foundational Christian teachings make it very plain that while we should not be waspish in personal relationships, governing authorities have the power of the sword to protect the civil peace of justice from the wolves who would prey on ordinary people going about the ordinary business of life. Starting with the policeman on the street corner. the use of the sword may be hard and is prone to abuse, but to not have the sword in the hands of the civil authority is to open up room for much worse. And, let us never forget that the principal civil authority in view in Romans 13 was Nero Caesar, admittedly in the good years under tutelage of Seneca and Burris; before he went utterly mad.)

    Again, for record, I note that in a world of the disrespectful, violent and oppressive — ranging from those who start with verbal abuse and disrespect in a blog [note the continuation of the use of an obscene and disrespectful double ententre abbreviation in referring to me in the thread] to those who turn neighbourhoods into ghettos dominated by gangs of violent bullies, to ruthless and aggressive international statesmen and ideologies — the shepherds need to be armed to defend sheep from wolves.

    And, those who would disarm shepherds, or who would so hamper them from acting in good time to protect the sheep bear responsibility for the predictable consequences.

    G’day

    D


  36. PAT:

    The truth you know or should know is truth that is evident to all men, starting with the implications of having a mind that credibly can reason and know; and the point that we are under moral government.

    Much can be inferred from this, as is discussed above and elsewhere.

    We have a plain duty to seek and to live by the truth and the right, however stumblingly and imperfectly.

    And to turn from this duty by rejecting the truth and following the way of evil is indefensible — not only before man, but ultimately before God.

    G’day

    D


  37. @Dictionary — December 16, 2009 at 5:59 PM… Amazing… 1258 words (7349 bytes).

    @Dictionary: “I comment for record [not debate]”

    [No serious response to any other commenter within the 1258 words…] Oh, no. Of course not…

    Tell me Dictionary…

    Are you satisfied with auto-gratification?


  38. Dictionary // December 16, 2009 at 6:03 PM

    My dear good man. Your truth is just that. Yours. Please dont try to ram it down others’ throats, especially when you see that it is not appreciated, valued or wanted.

    You have a reputation around the net for being a Caribbean fundamentalist of the extreme sort.


  39. @ Not Saved // December 16, 2009 at 11:04 AM

    Re Georgie, I do not always have the time to spend here ! THAT IS UNDERSTANDABLE IT CAN BE TEDIOUS AT TIMES.

    Re – Long book length posts are often considered โ€œimpoliteโ€ in the blogosphere. SURELY YOU EXAGERATE HERE LOL

    But the Father of our Nation once asked in 1971 HOW LONG IS TOO LONH IF ITS GOOD.

    Didnt know they had all these rules in the blogosphere! LOL. I for one dont consider that I blog; but then I am probably a rebel, and so do others who think out of the box. But I d prefer to read somethng lengthy with substance, structure, style and sequence that a short bit of verbal diarrhoea.

    I f a person does not want to read a long post, I think there is a facility on the key board that allows you to scroll past. LOL. Much like the tv clickey. lol

    I consider impolitenes unwanton worthless word attacks on folk who have done nothing except sought to inform the forum.

    Unlike most who have posted here on this thread NS, you do get things correct sometimes, such as …..-“I understand โ€œthinking of othersโ€ is a virtue often promoted by christian teachers, ministers etc.” LOL

    At least you will agree or concede when your opponents are right, and font continue making your self stupid. I dont mind debating with such.

    Be good, man.


  40. @Technician Dec 16, 09 @ 12:33 PM.

    “You were once a devout Catholic”

    For the record, I NEVER said in any posts, that I WAS a devout Catholic, never!

    I said that I WAS deeply involed with the Catholics, but never became one, THANK GOD!

    Stop putting words in my mouth, as you TWIST almost every thing that is said in defense of the Christian world view!

    @C HALSALL, You wouldn’t KNOW, and probably NEVER WILL!!!

    Darkness IS not something, it IS the absence of LIGHT.

    You are in DARKNESS!!!


  41. Yes Georgie I exaggerate a bit but the point is the same, long posts are not kind to everyone.

    If the commenter has a lengthy but valid and substantive point it could be linked or posted like a pdf as you have done !

    “thinking of others” is really a manifestation of the golden rule and that rule is common to just about every religion that comes to mind !


  42. Some idiot further up the thread, said that when ‘…you dead you dead…’ Annihilation, no consequences whatsoever hereafter!

    A very misunderstood thing, even by some ‘denominations’ IS the true meaning of the words, ‘Life’ and ‘Death’ used in God’s Word, the Bible.

    The Greek word rendered ‘Death’ in the Bible is ‘Thanatos’ and the Gk word for ‘Life’ is Zoe.

    Interestingly, neither of these two Greek words, are referring to what most people think they mean. In truth, Zoe (Life) is referring to a ‘qualitative’ reality that begins at the moment of ‘spiritual’ regeneration the (new birth) when the saints receive “everlasting life” AS a present possession (John 3: 15, 16, 36; 5:24; 6:47, 54; 10: 28: I John 5:13. 14, etc).

    This IS not referring so much to ‘duration’ or ‘quanity’ of life, BUT, to experiencing *endless* and abundant *QUALITY* of life, i.e., a life of satisfaction and joy.

    Whereas, DEATH, (Thanatos) IS not referring to ceasing to exist, or annihilation, BUT, continued conscious *existence* completely removed FROM the providential, earthly reality of physical life, into, everything that IS the opposite of Joy, peace, satisfaction, fulfillment, etc, in other words, Hell, and outer darkness, in everlasting, conscious misery, which the individual HAS CHOSEN, by rejecting God’s universal offer of forgiveness, and Everlasting Life.

    Therefore, ‘Life’ (Zoe) does not refer to ‘existence’ any more than ‘Death’ (Thanatos) refers to ‘nonexistence’ The wicked are ‘dead’ while they yet exist in this earthly realm.

    This is why when one of Jesus disciples “…said to Him, ‘Lord let me first go and bury me father. But Jesus said to him. ‘Follow Me, and let the DEAD bury their own DEAD.” (Matt. 8: 21b-22) emphasis added.

    Can a dead man bury a dead man? Yes, certainly, for what Jesus was saying, let the ‘spiritually’ DEAD people, bury the physically dead man.

    There are billions of dead people walking this earth, awaiting the ultimate DEATH, that is the separation of their soul/spirit from their physical bodies, when their true ‘self’ spirit/soul, will continue in eternal, conscious ‘existence’ by choice, having REJECTED God’s loving, merciful OFFER of eternal ‘Life’ in unspeakable Joy, Peace, Righteousness, and bliss, in His Presence, forever!


  43. Zoe…Zoe…Zoe….Zoe….OMG!!


  44. @Dictionary

    There is credence to your view and if Bush had crafted his explanation for the invasion using your above it might have deflated a lot of the debate ongoing.

    BTW the discussion on BU can become robust at times but we still believe the cogent arguments will win the day.


  45. The Jesuit Order hatched by the Black Prince Ignatious de Loyola (born 1491), validated in Rome by Pope Paul III is often described as the Catholic Church’s Militia (or Secret Service). Those who become members of this Order must take a brutal oath of obedience, where they commit themselves to be a faithful soldier of the Pope, and shall fight to forward the plans and purposes of the church and the Vatican, at any cost.

    It was recently discovered where the Jesuits were telling about their work and intentions for this New Millennium. Some of this information is very revealing, and also frightening – given how willingly the Protestant Churches follow the Jesuit plans, especially on the Ecumenical level, which is so strongly emphasized.

    Today the Jesuits are located all over the world, but are especially established in Europe, where they number approximately 9,000 strong.

    In North America, there is about 5,500 Jesuits; in Africa, approximately 1,150;
    and in Asia, approximately 5,400. It is also worth noting that these figures are only the “inner circle” of this clandestine Order.

    The Jesuits also have several lower departments, or subdivisions that have been formed and inspired over the many 100โ€™s of years the mitosis from (the Nicolaitans โ€“ a plant of Satan) to the Knights Templar to this insidious Order โ€“ the Jesuits, to Freemasons & the Illuminatiโ€ฆ

    No expense has been spared as demons from the Bottomless Pit has used lying intrigue and blatant sophistry as a subliminal marker of deception to dupe the whole world into believing a โ€œLIEโ€ for the truthโ€ฆ Many are even in denial of the historical legacy and the murderous transgressions of this ruthless organization.

    Yet somehow men adamantly refuse to take off their blindersโ€ฆ


  46. My Norwegian brethren Bente & Abel Struksnes argue quite strongly that the pervasiveness of Jesuit philosophy and the machinations of the Vatican within an emerging New Catholic European Union mean that:

    “We are talking about a widespread conspiracy, the aim of which is to destroy independent nations. European and a Global revolution is a fact. The world’s great financial, political and religious powers are today joining forces. The laws and statutes of independent nations are being overruled by international law.
    Why does the elite want more power and control, why the urge for a centralised and international way of governing the world? How great is the influence coming from secret power groups when international decisions are made? HOW do all these forces cooperate? WHO are these people behind the scenes? Which role do the Vatican, the Pope and the Catholic Church play in this game to gain world dominion? Which role do the US, the UN and the international forces play in the Middle-East conflict? Is there a connection between the peace negotiations and the role of Israel in the end-time, and will they ever gain control over the Temple Mount? Are we really heading towards a period of global peace, springing from the Middle-East?”

    For anyone to deny (and I AM SPEAKING TO THOSE WHO ARE WILLING TO BE INTELLECTUALLY HONEST) that we’re fast approaching the unification of Church, State & Economics is frankly a stranger to the truth and clearly chooses to walk in darkness…

    So we can hoop, holla’ and dribble on with our ideological arguments, our academic prowess and the rest of it but the PLAIN TRUTH* is we are in for the ride of our lives and we are clueless as to what is about to hit us!!!

    The ‘ole devil is about to throw the kitchen sink at us…


  47. David:

    Re: >>There is credence to your view and if Bush had crafted his explanation for the invasion using your above it might have deflated a lot of the debate ongoing . . . >>

    Sadly, Bush actually did just that, as did Mr Blair. (If you look at, say, a full video of Mr Powell’s speech at he UN, you can see that.)

    He was drowned out by the hostile major media and pundits spin machine, as he did not line up with the power elite agendas for the global government in waiting. (A measure of what is going on is to note that on a lot of things Bush was excoriated for, his policies were actually a linear extension of policies by Mr Clinton [e.g. on Kyoto, given the 1997 95-0 Byrd-Hagel bipartisan US senate resolution] , and onward it looks like a lot of what Mr Obama is actually doing on the ground — once he has had to deal with the balance of forces in reality as opposed to in rhetoric — are again linear extensions of Mr Bush’s policies. the proposed mini surge in Afghanistan comes to mind as a capital case in point. And, if Mr Obama loses Afghanistan, I assure you the Black Flag army from the direction of Khorasan agenda of radical jihadist islamism and mahdism will sweep to the centre of the international arena; with Pakistan’s nukes and Iran’s nukes to back it up. I’ll bet you will never hear of this side of the discussion and issues!)

    But, TB has put to centre focus a legitimate question, even though I think his main focus is wrong. Here, from Wiki [here, giving access to otherwise very hard to find info . . . ] is a key section of the first, 1877, will of that rapist of Africa, Cecil Rhodes — made before he really got going:

    To and for the establishment, promotion and development of a Secret Society [he had been a lodge member from college days, but was not satisfied with what they were doing; so he set out to do the game one better . . . ], the true aim and object whereof shall be for the extension of British rule throughout the world, the perfecting of a system of emigration from the United Kingdom, and of colonisation by British subjects of all lands where the means of livelihood are attainable by energy, labour and enterprise, and especially the occupation by British settlers of the entire Continent of Africa, the Holy Land, the Valley of the Euphrates, the Islands of Cyprus and Candia, the whole of South America, the Islands of the Pacific not heretofore possessed by Great Britain, the whole of the Malay Archipelago, the seaboard of China and Japan, the ultimate recovery of the United States of America as an integral part of the British Empire, the inauguration of a system of Colonial representation in the Imperial Parliament which may tend to weld together the disjointed members of the Empire and, finally, the foundation of so great a Power as to render wars impossible, and promote the best interests of humanity.

    Now, let us make a few adjustments to this summary of the views of what would have been “progressive” imperialists of the late C19 British Toff upper classes:

    (i) Take out the British Empire and substitute a New World Order and international bodies to act as “parliament of the world” [cf. League of Nations, the United Nations etc];

    (ii) Reduce the racism and sexism, and promote creation of an internationalist elite [cf Rhodes Scholarships . . . ]

    (iii) For a single secret society, substitute a cluster of internationalist organisations and associated advocacy societies, some open, some confidential.

    (iv) Substitute a Global Community superstate as the “so great a power . . .” with UN mandated forces as precursors. [Shades of Nicolae Carpathia’s emergence and behind the scenes sponsorship in the first of the Left Behind novels and movies by La Haye and Jenkins [NOT Lalonde and Van Impe et al], TB . . .]

    (v) Put up wave after wave of media hyped international crises and use them to panic the international public into signing over sovereignty to the already conveniently existing superstate organs. [Shades of Copenhagen and Kyoto, and Club of Rome and and and . . . ]

    (vi) Enter, stage LEFT, the emerging, greatest, brilliant, articulate, handsome young internationalist man of peace and rescue [perhaps with a background that is in a bit of shade . . . ], the ultimate political saviour . . . one who can solve for instance that long running sore in the Middle East through a seven year, confidence building treaty . . . [Maybe, a European- raised half- Turk or the like, a suave man of affairs, with a bit of Muslim background but he is a trusted friend of the modern world (he makes all the right noises and radiates all the inner circle’s Newspeak and new gesture signals, ever so eloquently . . . ), having studied in Jesuit schools and Colleges [maybe Loyola U or George Washington U] — the best of the best [I had the privilege of a Jesuit secondary education]! — with a nodding acquaintanceship with Pope Peter, 263rd in line from Peter I . . . [cf Joel Richardson here.]

    (vii) Voila, we have a global government with the Man of Sin at the helm and so great a power at his command that none can disobey or resist him and survive . . .

    Now, does this nightmare scenario sound a little too close to current events and trends over the past century or so for comfort?

    Maybe, it should!

    D

    PS: As blog owner, David, you have a duty of care to promote civility and to regulate uncivil conduct. In Commonwealth jurisdictions, libel laws and slander laws are pretty strong and clear.


  48. OOPS: the Wiki link on Cecil Rhodes’ 1877 will: here.


  49. PPS: My pope count may need adjusting. What was that secret annex to the Lourdes prophecies or revelations again? And there was something ancient about 263 or so successors to Peter.

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