David, on the matter of referenda, they have never been a part of our constitutional culture…if we need them to be, then we must agitate for them; politicians in office are reluctant to share power unless constrained to.

Re the smacking of children, the violent solution is embedded in our psyche, hence there will be understandable reluctance to change. I am not so sure, however, that you can make a valid comparison between those countries which allow it and those which do not…How do you measure the results? It’s essentially about the use of violence towards another human being, not about the effect on the country, whatever that means.

Some people confuse corporal punishment with being barbaric or abusive behaviour, and they often say corporal punishment leads to those children growing up being aggressive, and thus not caring members of society.

I am of the opinion it is better not to smack, however there might be occasions when it is necessary, to prevent an action or actions which in the long term might cause more discomfort to the child.

Greater damage is often done – emotional and psychological – to children in households where no smacking is done, as some parents withdraw into themselves in a literal hands-off approach to parenting, feeling smug that they do not smack their children. I am not suggesting all parents who do not smack are thus inclined. However, when the Law is brought into parenting, it must be enforced, this often leads to a fracture in the relationship which is difficult to rectify.

I do not equate smacking with violence which in broad terms means: “intended to cause injuries or destruction”.

Referendums are usually for national issues which affect all in the same way…I am not sure that applies in this case.

@ Themis
Quote: ” I did not mean to cause her injury, your Honour, I was not violent”

In most cases like the one you have outlined, there are several features. It is often not what was meant by the accused but the outcome of his/her actions, was injury “of any kind” caused?

There is also the question of a “shove” that could be an assault depending on the force used.

In an assault the victim has not even got to be touched if he/she is, that is into the area of “assault by beating”.

The question of “violence” the test would be what would a “reasonable” person think on seeing the action and the outcome of it.

There is also a separate legal term of “intent” this matter is not as simple as you suggest.

You said the: “the addition of the element of an ulterior intent suits the purpose of your argument”… I used a dictionary definition. I will be generous and just say “injuries” but of course the person who did the smacking must have had an intention, perhaps to correct or modify behaviour, but not injure, and did not injure…thus he/she might not have been “violent”.

I am not clear, Yardbroom, on all that you are saying but you should bear the following in mind:

1 If, as you argue, the case turns on whether injury is caused, how do you define “injury”?

2 Whether or not an action is an assault (strictly speaking, you mean a “battery”) does not depend on the amount of force used but on whether that force was consented to. Thus an unwelcome kiss could be an assault/battery.

3 The use of the word “intent” in law is to be distinguished from “intention”. The former is used with respect to some ulterior intent or objective of the offender, e.g. assault with INTENT to cause serious bodily harm. The latter is the mens rea or the intention to do the primary act, e.g. once you are sane, sober etc. you INTEND the natural and probable consequences of your act.

4 Are you saying in your final paragraph that if I should slap my wife for not preparing my dinner, I would not be violent if I merely intended to correct her behaviour and did not “injure” her?

No, YB, spitting or even throwing water on someone is actually a battery- see Pursell v Horn (1838).

Are you saying now that an assault/battery depends on whether or not your behaviour is reasonable to a judicial officer? Can it be ever be reasonable to strike another adult without their consent?

It is true that a parent’s physical punishment of a child is not actionable, nor a teacher’s reasonable chastisement, but that’s not because it is not violence, it is because the relationship provides an excuse for what would otherwise be an battery.

A major problem with condoning a violent act (and we can have discussions about degree, but they often do not change the basics) is that you need to be consistent and symmetrical. A parent hitting a child has a hard time explaining to a child that he/she should not hit others. Just because oral measures do not help cannot be cause to escalate to contact and hitting. That’s a problem with some policing, where violence comes about quickly to try to exert control over a situation.

The fact that some children can come through life without apparent visible or mental scars is not an argument from hitting a child. Humans adapt and adjust.

It’s interesting that in most so called non-contact sports the sanctions for violent contact are harsh–and intent now tends to be ignored, looking at outcome. So, in soccer, tripping, hitting, spitting, and foul and abusive language, should all get the maximum sanction [consistent application is often lacking too]. So our general view in even such arenas (sorry) is that we must ward against the violence.

If the law is to be involved, then it has to be that if a person wants to file a charge against what is generally outlawed then that should be possible. Hit your child and be ready to face the charge of assault. Why should your own children be party to accepting more abusive behaviour than meeted out to strangers?

You can’t legislate personality.
So therefore you can’t legislate how people should discipline their children.
Now abuse is another thing, but there is nothing wrong with a spank on the behind.
Especially between consenting adults …. right Bimbro ??? lolol…

@ Themis
It was you who brought the example of a man and woman in a domestic situation of conflict and a slap being administered. I said it could not be equated with a parent and child, which I understood this thread is about.

Quote: “Are you saying that an assault/battery depends on whether or not your behaviour is reasonable to a judicial officer? Can it be ever reasonable to strike another adult without their consent?”

If you wish to resort to Law, then the Courts must decide. Therefore a Magistrate, Judge or a Jury will decide.

Quote : “Can it ever be reasonable to strike another adult without their consent?”

Yes!
In self defence: If the “strike” was reasonable and proportionate to the circumstances.

I used the words “assault by beating” to infer physical contact. I will not go into why I used that term here…but if you wish you may win this aside from the main thread, no hard feelings.
************
PS: My mother used a little tamarind switch, at times she even asked me to cut it for her…she always went for my legs, bless her. I bore her no ill will and throughout my life – on a few continents – I have never had contact with the police…apart from a professional capacity, my children are the same.

@David and YB, sorry for the excursus into legalese but I was merely attempting to argue that the flogging of a child is violence which the Courts excuse FOR NOW…

YB, don’t you think that for everyone, such as yourself, who was flogged and did not have contact with the police, there at least 5 in prison now who were flogged? Or are you telling me that most of our prisoners were never punished as youngsters? I was not flogged and I have not had contact with the police either!

Yardbroom, not only did she beat u, she also made u cut the switch? My god, did she have to humiliate u to that extent!!

I wont have chance to really engage on this but note that in most societies the police and the army are given special powers for law and order and security of a nation. It does not absolve them from accusations or charges (we know the cases of gratuitious violence).

This argument may be about authority and who does or does not have it. But it is also ab0ut whether meting out punishment is to be encouraged or discouraged. If you want to build a peaceful society do you encourage physical punishment or discourage it? As I said above, those who want it will draw a line where it suits, others will draw the line elsewhere. If I had to fear for my physical well being everytime I transgressed then I would be a man living in terror, and that is often how physical or corporal punishment works. Or, its implications are ignored–why capital punishment does not stop violent crime. Look at the evidence and there is nothing to support that capital punishment is a deterrent. So, if the ultimate sanction does not work, then why would milder forms?

@ Themis
I am not saying that you have to be flogged to prevent anti social behaviour. That is not the case, behaviour is better controlled by “parental examples” in the home. They should be constantly reinforced when children are between the ages of 4-6 years. When they are teenagers it is often too late to change behaviour.

We have examples of young boys in Barbados shooting at each other as if it it a game. They are attempting to copy modes of behaviour, which large countries can cope with, but which a small island like Barbados cannot.

As to the prison population in Barbados, the fact is some young men do not want to work; they aspire to positions for which they have had no training or education, but they think a certain kind of manual work is beneath them. They are never prepared to put in the effort necessary to achieve.

Some are only interested in drugs and the quick profits they bring…the misery to society is often lost in the fog.

A buffer of excuses is often given for bad behaviour, and there is sometimes a relative or friend ready to circumvent the law…we will pay a heavy price but the poorest always pay first.

This is not what people want to hear…it is better to blame others.

@ Bimbro
I never felt humiliated, I always cut a “small” switch.

@ David
I posted before I saw your comment.

In deciding which avenue to pursue we have to look at norms in a particular society. What is good for New Zealand is not necessarily good for Barbados.

I could ask how many national referendums has New Zealand had in the last hundred years and how many has Barbados had?

I believe that occasional gentle corporal punishment does no long term damage to children. I am sure they are many who will disagree…I just accept that.

Yardbroom

I’m sure you will acknowledge the wisdom (and brilliance) of your mother i.e. you were fully involved in preparing the consequences of your behaviour. When I went to school many years ago the headmaster use to do the same thing i.e. send us to procure the switch which would be used to administer punishment. Looking for that tamarind switch was enough to make us quite contrite so much so that often the headmaster would say “next time I will really use it” and dismiss the offending student.

Bimbro,
“kicks, cuffs an’ bites”
You kno how Bonny like to ‘stretch’ de trute sumtimes too. Ya devil.

Zion 1971, Y.Broom,Ready Done,Hard-drive and my sucre-plum Hopi, all those in favor say ‘aye’. Think de ‘ayes’ have it.

A good ‘cut-ass’ never kill a boy yet, might pain fa a while but den it cool down til de nex’ encounter.

“Hard-ears ya wunt hear, own-way ya gun feel”. My motto to dis day.

Themis,
I didn’t know that I was my man’s child to discipline. By the time we met, I would’ve/should’ve been well disciplined by my parents however they saw it fit. And trust me, Bonny got her fare share of it from her mother.We’re talking about something completely different when two adults are involved, i think.

Spousal abuse is a different story Themis. We’re discussing children here.
I have a very short fuse when it comes to talking repeatedly to a child about the same thing. Why burn out my throat telling you the same thing fifteen times when you have a cute little behind that can withstand a little pressure the same fifteen times? It works for me.

Thanks for that Jay.

If Barbados is to improve its governance system and move from the comfort of 100% relying on the politician to ensure a functioning democracy we need to look at how countries elsewhere operate and borrow to enhance our system.

@David,Perhaps it can be done via planned shorter election cycles to ensure that any relevant applicant whom would like to reside at Llaro Court would adhere to the wishes of the people.It would also be wise to implement term limits & have set dates for elections in Barbados instead of relying on the acting P.M. to announce such.

Another possibility I was thinking about is the possibility of any Barbados citizen being able to offer a recall referendum towards MPs of Parliament if they are not representing their district as they should,majority vote would be required.

I believe one of the parties in the UK are currently looking at such a thing.

http://ashfordlibdems.org.uk/news/000215/lib_dems_call_for_general_election_and_radical_change_to_uk_politics.html

“”For the first time since the SDP in the 1980’s people are demanding change on a dramatic scale. Following the expenses scandal it is clear that political revolution, not evolution,

is necessary to restore trust in the political system.

“We need fixed four year parliamentary terms. Why should the Prime Minister have the power to choose when you or I vote?

We need the power of recall – much like in the US – where local people can ‘vote again’ if their local representative lets them down badly.

“We also need to change the voting system to check the power of the ‘leading’ party. The opposition should have greater scrutiny powers. Local people should have a greater say

over local decisions and local government should be freed of ‘one size fits all’ targets.

“This agenda for change has been outlined by Nick Clegg MP and Liberal Democrats across the country.”

“Smacking” as opposed to beating. should be reserved for toddlers and small children who will have difficulty understanding the effect of their negative behaviour, and then, only if that behaviour places them or others in physical danger.

For the older child where reasoning is possible, other forms of punishment should be attempted.

We as reasonable competent adults, should really not have to hit children.

@ David you are going along the lines , ” Barbados is to improve its governance system and move from the comfort of 100% relying on the politician to ensure a functioning democracy”

But i would have to agree with Meaki
sentiments “Do people really expect Barbadian politicians to dig holes that they could fall into one day?”

Now my take,The Governing system has worked for us so far because we have been fortunate to have chosen good/not greedy leaders, But it is obvious that if corruption takes hold it would spread through the government like a wild fire.

To put these anti-corruption measures in place would be a nice thing to do , but who would have the power to put such systems in place?

These systems would obviously ruffle a few feathers.

Zion bro, please!! I know dis is d liberated 21st century an al dah baloney, but, bro, please!! yuh does doan GROW kids!! U raise dem, even in d 21 st cen. , so bro, please doan use dah phrase again, it’s so inappropriate!! I know u mean well, but, even fuh lil B’dos, yuh does GROW trees an plants but, NOT children!!

Oh dearrrrrr!!

Mus b dem Yankees agin!!

zion, who’s bibro?!!

Laaaaaaaaadddddddddddd!!

No problem!!

Anonymous,

“Good ting na cheap, cheap ting na good”.

i have read some of the coments and it was very interested to see how some of us view this topic,i know that it is important for a child to be diciplined sometime,the problem is there are many forms of it ,the parent should be the one to choose the most appropriate means to get the desired effect of diciplining the child.