A Question Of Identity: Third Sex To Be Recognized On Birth Certificate

Submitted by Yardbroom
Photo Credit: theguardian

Photo Credit: theguardian

Germany will become the first country in Europe to recognize a third or “undetermined” sex when registering births and so join a very small group of nations; if a report in the Suddentsche Zeitung is to be believed.  “From 1 November the babies born in Germany without clear gender-determining physical characteristics, will be able to be registered without a sex on their birth certificates”.

Australians have allowed citizens to mark their gender on a passport as “x” since 2011 and New Zealand followed suit last year.  Activists in both countries claim Legislation has helped curb discrimination against transsexuals and those of indeterminate gender.

Germany’s change is being seen as the country’s first legal acknowledgment, that it is possible for a human to be neither male or female.  This could have far-reaching consequences in many legal areas.  Justice Minister Sabine Leuthheusser – Schnarrenberger said: “the decision will have deep repercussions and will require “comprehensive reform” of all documents issued by the state.”

“While transsexuals are already legally recognized in Germany, hermaphrodites – those with both male and female genitalia – have always been forcibly registered as one or other sex at birth.”

The question can be asked, on what basis has Germany arrived at this far reaching decision?  The recognition of third gender was based on a recommendation by the constitutional court, which sees legal recognition of a person’s experienced and lived gender as a personal human right.  In an article in New Europe Silvan Agius, policy director at human rights organization ILGA Europe, told Spiegel Newspaper that: “the decision will push the rest of the EU to do the same.”

People of “undetermined sex will be allowed at any point throughout their lives, to identify themselves as one or other sex and register the change on their birth certificates.  Although this has not been stated, if for example a person of “undetermined” sex at birth was raised as a boy, because of what his parents wanted or perceived him to be, and then at a later stage in his life, he became – say a teacher, John Thomas.  He in the passage of time, if because of psychological difficulties – or other reasons wanted to change his name, and be formally known as Jane Thomas and dress as a female and continue to teach in the same school.  This change of stated gender would make his/her life much easier.  She could not be subjected to the difficulties sometimes now experienced by those of “undeterminate”sex at birth.  This new legal framework will allow her to have her documentation changed without much ado.

The question of sex, gender and other related issues, have caused even more anguish in recent years.  At the last Athletics world championships this month, the Russian pole vault world record holder Yelena Isinbayeva was criticised by fellow athletes for aligning herself too closely with Putin’s Russian Government’s hard line on gays.  The Russian female 4 x 400 meter relay gold medalists, Kseniya Ryzhova and Tatyana Firova, had to defend and explain their position to the media when a kiss smack on the lips was exchanged during the medal ceremony.  They asserted it was exhuberance and joy at their winning of the gold medal and no message was being sent to the Russian Government and no inference should be taken, as they are both married.

The world has moved on a-pace in the last twenty years or so, practices and behaviours once condemned are now being accepted – not without some opposition – in certain countries.  In matters of human behaviour accepted practices can change over time.  It is not for me to condemn others, for holding a view based on religion, the bible or faith.  Or for that matter not having a view.  We must, or should come to our own enlightenment but it is best if that is based on knowledge, experience, compassion and whatever values we hold that have made or is making us who we are.

Acknowledgement to Josie Le Blond of Guardian Newspapers

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PS: The word “hermaphrodite” was subsequently removed from the Guardian’s article as it was considered inconsistent with the spirit of Guardian editorial guidelines.

52 thoughts on “A Question Of Identity: Third Sex To Be Recognized On Birth Certificate


  1. What a leap … from physiological differences (at birth) to behavioral patterns (which I also believe to be birth related btw) in an effort to stir up shit from our homophobic audience … My God Yardie, you should be broken at the wheel …!


  2. This should really not be as difficult as the gay debate.
    If a child is born and the doctors cannot decide whether it is male or female, it makes a great deal of sense to allow that child to decide what sex it is later in life. It is a rare event. Give a young child with a medical issue some space to sort out its life.


  3. Just now Georgie Porgie and Zoe will tell us that God creaetd them male and female.

    And that this wickedness is Gremany, Australia, New Zealand etc is a sign of the end times.

    But all ‘o we who grew up in villages knew mophreys, and she-she’s


  4. Hi Caswell August 22, 2013 @ 6:53pm

    You asked: If there will be three genders Male, Female and Neuter?

    He/She is not male or female. I believe neuter is not used here because it would be stating “definitely” not male or female. However, “undetermined” at birth would allow a decision to be made at a later date. This third option allows the person concerned to make that decision. I stand to be corrected.

    Hi BAFBFP August 22, 2013 @ 7:02pm

    Oh ye of little mercy – break me on the wheel ? – if you must no “drawn” out deliberations.

    I note you inserted physiology- a word I did not use – to make your point. I wrote “psychological” – you can be mischievous!!!


  5. Simple Simon | August 22, 2013 at 11:52 PM |
    Just now Georgie Porgie and Zoe will tell us that God creaetd them male and female.

    And that this wickedness is Gremany, Australia, New Zealand etc is a sign of the end times.

    But all ‘o we who grew up in villages knew mophreys, and she-she’s
    ====================================================
    ACTUALLY IT IS TRUE THAT God creaetd them male and female.

    A SHE SHE IS AN EFFEMINATE MAN. THE BIBLE SPEAKS A LOT ABOUT THIS TOO

    YES This wickedness is Gremany, Australia, New Zealand etc is a sign of the end times.

    BUT PERHAPS WE CAN LIFT THE KNOWLEDGE BASE OF THE ISSUE THAT YARDBROOM IS PRESENTING BY PERUSAL OF TWO OF MY PPTS FROM MY EMBRYOLOGY CLASSES FOR THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED.

    David I will get one of my students to send you these in a while


  6. david
    you may merge the two ppts and post them as one.
    i think they give a holistic comprehensive view of the subject


  7. So Georgie wah is the difference between Transexuality and Homosexuality … are they that far apart …? HA .. I ain’ reading all 200 pages friend sorry, so I going straight to the horses mouth …!


  8. seems to be a well thought out law that also reaches out in helping parents to relieve the pressure of not having to make hasty and sometimes fatal decision in defining their child gender


    • @GP

      According to your slide Intersex definition is defined as:

      “Intersex” is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male.

      BU interprets this as an abnormality. Are we saying therefore that the genitalia is the only part of the anatomy which defines the sex of the person?


  9. baffy
    Transsexualism occurs when a person strongly believes that he or she belong to the opposite sex.

    Homosexuals act on their belief


  10. DAVID
    I AM NOT SURE THAT I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION
    AC
    THIS STUFF IS WAY ABOVE YOUR HEAD. STICK TO HARASSING LOVERIDGE


  11. Georgie

    Ah boy ,,, the brain is indeed a complex thing huh … Strongly believes … believes … We are dealing here with degrees huh. So it is very very difficult to be absolutely in one camp and not the other … Wah you think …? (BTW I see some pictures there with what appears to be the genitalia of children, but with pubic hair …. agghhh! The shite student doctors are forced to absorb…. Georgie do doctors have normal sex …?


  12. Baffy doctors don’t have any sex at all, normal nor abnormal.

    Doctors are like angels, sexless. Don’t want any. Don’t have any.


  13. @GP
    What Stuff above which HEAD,,, whatb does loveridge have to do with neuter sex..what are you GP implying here. please do not draw ac into any such discussion. …i am sure your GOD has all the answers for such complicated problems. Howver i am appealing to YOU to show compassion and understanding as this too might be a problem ABOVE YOUR HEAD’.


  14. DAVID
    RE Are we saying therefore that the genitalia is the only part of the anatomy which defines the sex of the person?

    Genitalia is the outward manifestation or the result of a process

    Basically males and females have bipotential gonads. We start on a basic plan or chassis if you please
    If you have the SRY-gene (TDF) on the short arm of the Y chromosome receptors for H -Y antigen on the primordial bipotential gonad interacts and testes are formed. Androgens are produced and you become male. If you do not have the SRY-gene (TDF) the receptors for H -Y antigen on the primordial bipotential gonad interacts do not respond and ovaries are formed….the result is a female.


    • @Doc GP

      Please continue: what happens in the case of Intersex?

      On 23 August 2013 23:19, Barbados Underground


  15. David you need to go over Slides 66-76 and 78- 92 slowly and tease out this basic information, although I have repeated it later.

    If you look at the male scrotum there is the median raphe, which looks like if it is sewn up external female genitalia. The clitoris is a minuture penis.
    The next few slides indicate how what is essentially the tubes uterus and vagina disapears in men, and how the lower urinary tract is modified.

    The ambiguity arises because of genetic issues which may result in the failure to make certain enzymes. This in turn results in a variety of medical conditions——-most of which are congenital.


  16. can there be more interaction on this topic from a humanistic point. the medical information is all good and well, but the question that pops out in the article need to be addressed .that is how and when does a person of neuter gender defines themselves . next question is how does society get around to accepting such a term as “third” gender when in reality we are defined as either male or female by our physical appearance,


  17. you will find that

    In the female, absence of androgens permits the external genitalia to remain feminine

    The genital tubercle becomes the clitoris
    The labioscrotal swellings → the labia majora
    The urogenital folds → the labia minora

    In the male, fetal androgens from the testes masculinize the external genitalia

    The genital tubercle grows to become the penis
    The labioscrotal swellings fuse to form the scrotum

    this is partially what we said above

    see slide with drawing in slide 102

    note also this summary

    genetic sex is determined at fertilization.
    testes develop in XY fetus, ovaries develop in XX fetus.

    XY fetus produces MIS and androgens and XX fetus does not.

    XY fetus develops Wolffian ducts and XX fetus develops Mullerian ducts.

    XY fetus masculinizes the female genitalia to make it male and the XX fetus retains female genitalia.

    you can see genetics is steering the normal.

    intersex occurs if there is some genetic defect which then leads to some hormonal defect which results in anatomical and physiological defects.


    • @GP

      This is interesting stuff. It makes one truly appreciate that we have to embrace the possibility of the difference amongst us.

      Please explain how the brain is ‘wired’ in the case of the Intersexed.

      On 23 August 2013 23:37, Barbados Underground


  18. the result of the above is
    1 gender identity: the identification of self as either male or female

    2 gender role: aspects of behavior in which males and females appear to differ

    3 gender orientation: choice of sexual partner (heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual)

    BUT
    Experience in patients with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) [ NB THAT 98 % of affected babies are due to congenital adrenal hyperplasia ] who were exposed prenatally to androgen and in patients reared in a sex opposite to their chromosomal or gonadal sex have provided evidence to indicate that gender identity is not merely a function of chromosomal complement or prenatal endocrine milieu

    strong evidence has accumulated for the impact of prenatal hormonal influences on sexually dimorphic behavior or gender role EG FROM DRUGS TAKEN IN PREGNANCY ETC

    previously accepted dogma that children are psychosexually neutral at birth and capable of being environmentally oriented has been seriously challenged by those who support the concept of prenatal psychosexual differentiation

    A national task force has been organized to study larger numbers of affected patients in hopes of improving our understanding of the “nurture vs nature” controversy, and will likely prove very important in optimizing our management of patients with intersex disorder.

    CLASSIFICATION OF INTERSEXUALITY
    1 Virilization of genitically female foetus Female pseudohemaphroditism

    THIS IS A FEMALE WHO LOOKS AND ACTS MALE USUALLY BECAUSE SHE IS NOT CONVERTING TESTOSTERONE TO ESTROGENS EG THE SOUTH AFRICAN 800 METER RUNNER WE DISCUSSED YEARS AGO

    2. Incomplete musculinization of genitically male foetus
    Male pseudohermaphroditism (XY-FEMALE)
    THIS IS A MALE REALLY WITH A HORMONAL DEFECT

    3. The presence of both ovarian and testicular tissue in the same individual
    True hermaphroditism
    THIS IS A TRUE HERMAPRODITE–RARE
    4. Chromosomal abnormality
    Mixed gonadal dysgenesis ( 45,X0 / 46,XY)
    TURNERS SYNDROME BASICALLY A SEXUALLY DYSFUNCTIONAL FEMALE
    KLINEFELTERS BASICALLY A SEXUALLY DYSFUNCTIONAL MALE

    SLIDES 110-113 INDICATE THE BIOCHEMICAL ISSUES INVOLVED IN THE ABOVE———LACK OF FORMATION OF ENZYMES IN BIOCHEMICAL PATHWAYS


  19. David

    I have to admire you man … you are actually still in the game … HA! Or you might just me drawing GP out … in which time yah wasting yah time causen GP is in his chromoZone now … HA


  20. David | August 23, 2013 at 7:57 PM |
    Please explain how the brain is ‘wired’ in the case of the Intersexed.

    If you accept as Simple Simon pointed out that God created them male and female. So basically, the intersexed, who are relatively uncommon, are the result of genetic deficiency resulting in biochemical and thus anatomical and physiological abnormality.

    With the advancement in biochemical techniques we can now diagnose and categorize the intersexed and therefore treat them surgically or other methods. The mystery and mystique is really no longer there.

    I don’t foresee that the wiring of their brains are all that different really. After all the wiring of the brain responds to chemical substances like aspartate, glutamate opioids dopamine etc which we ingest.

    I don’t think that I am qualified to comment on behavior of the intersexed if that is where you are going. We are not always sure about the behavior of the sexed.

    Whether sexed or intersexed, I suspect that one’s sexual behavior is a function of how one is raised. If you are raised as a male you will most likely behave that way, or vice verse. It’s a learned thing.

    Of course folk with Turner’s for example must have it hard not being able to have children, not being like their peers e.g not menstruating, wanting to engage in sex etc.

    But I know of no evidence that intersex causes people to turn out to be homosexuals, for example


  21. @ Georgie Porgie | August 23, 2013 at 7:52 PM |

    This is a most interestingly invaluable contribution based firmly on scientific knowledge and understanding of human gender identification and functionality from foetal formation to full blown hormonal manifestation at the final battle of the sexes on the battle ground called Puberty.

    It leaves one to wonder whether this whole thing called human sexuality is a simplistic genetic engineering event of a one-off Adam & Eve model or more of an Evolutionary trial and error process with its mistakes and deficiencies along the way to ‘greater’ perfection.

    I prefer the more ‘scientific’ explanation that GP is giving. Maybe therein ‘lies’ the key to a more ‘scientific’ understanding of that mixed-up deviation of copulation between Mother Nature and Father Time along the gender identification spectrum called homosexuality.


  22. @GPOf course folk with Turner’s for example must have it hard not…wanting to engage in sex etc.

    This hows a pro-sex bias. People with Turner’s do not miss sex. One cannot miss something that one has never desired.

    But thanks for the PP and everything else.


  23. Miller
    Personally I don’t believe in any Evolutionary trial and error process with its mistakes and deficiencies along the way to ‘greater’ perfection. I believe in creation
    .
    I think that having a “single chassis” if you like or being made on a single template is a master stroke! Then to modify this to provide the structures for males and females to function sexually, reproductively and urogenitally is fantastic, especially when you consider that this system only rarely fails I don’t think that this process could have evolved.

    Note that alligator eggs develop into male or female depending on external temperature. Perhaps there are environmental factors that promote the genetic changes that cause the biochemical defects that cause intersex.

    In the final analysis there are only two sexes. Intersex is not a sex : it is an aberration. Biochemical advances has enabled us to understand the causation of these malformations. This has removed the mystery and mystique and allow us to diagnose and treat the situations much earlier. Homosexuality is mainly a issue of the will.


  24. Simple Simon | August 23, 2013 at 9:02 PM |
    re This hows a pro-sex bias. People with Turner’s do not miss sex. One cannot miss something that one has never desired.

    Not really you know, I had a patient with Turner’s once, and you would be surprised at the things she told me with an abundance of tears–not ever having sex was one of them. Remember these people have sisters and cousins and aunts and watch tv etc They dont live in a vacuum .


  25. all this talk just to legalize BULLING !!!
    See that they trying to pressure Queen Ifrica for her anti-same sex stance
    Stand your ground Ifrica -resist the Bullers and Wickers.

    The worst statement made for the year
    “I WANT TO BE A WOMAN”

    STATEMENT made by Manning -the bulling soldier from the US.
    He should have been drawn and quartered there and then. Big Nasty Bulling little she she girl/boy

    THE WORLD IS AT AN END


  26. Scientific advances have help us tounderstand the origins of the universe.but some woud prefer to walk in darkness.the bible explantation of creation has omitted a crucial component of creation and that is time. the time factor in biblical teaching is short and inconclusive asking man to stretch the imagination beyond the bonds of reality which challenges man to accept that which is unproven . avery hard challenge indeed.


  27. JUST ASKING | August 23, 2013 at 10:24 PM |
    all this talk just to legalize BULLING !!!
    ===================================
    I AGREE WITH YOU 100%
    @yardbroom
    Re
    it is best if that is based on knowledge, experience, compassion and whatever values we hold that have made or is making us who we are.
    Yardbroom, I hope my ppts have provided the on knowledge and experience you required.

    RE Germany will become the first country in Europe to recognize a third or “undetermined” sex when registering births

    Why should they, when it is now possible to determine the real sex of a child soon after birth—and certainly by 18 months?

    DIAGNOSIS
     History : pregnancy; family
     Detailed examination : abdomen; pelvis; external genitalia; urethral and anal openings.
    Federman’s rule: a palpable gonad below the inguinal ligament is testes until proven otherwise

    Investigations
    • Rule out congenital adrenal hyperplasia [the cause in 98% of cases] : Serum electrolytes; 17-OHP level and urinary levels of 17-ketosteroids
    • Karyotype ( buccal smear; blood)
    • Pelvic US and sometimes MRI or Genitogram
    • Skin biopsy; fibroblast culture to measure 5alpha-reductase activity or dihydrotestosterone binding
    • Laparoscopy
    • Gonadal biopsy (laparotomy)
    General guidelines
    • Sex assignment should be decided after detailed assessment, investigations and accurate diagnosis
    • Complete gender assignment by age 18 months
    Male gender assignment :
    – stretched phallus > 2 cm
    – erectile tissue
    – lack of severe hypospadias
    • Female gender assignment :
    – inadequate phallus
    – cervix and uterus present
    The causes of ambiguous genitalia are many and complex, so it is important to approach the treatment of children with this disorder in a systematic fashion.
     Evaluation should be done expeditiously, and parents should be kept informed during the evaluation to help them understand the embryologic anomaly that led to their child’s genital ambiguity.
     Endocrine supplementation should be instituted when necessary, and a pediatric surgeon should be actively involved in assigning the child’s sex of rearing as well as performing any necessary reconstructive surgery


  28. But Georgie if as you say sometime gender cannot be assigned until 18 months are you suggesting that the child be a non-person until 18 months. What if the parents want to take the child for a holiday and the child needs a passport to do so. Surely then you have to put some kinda name and gender on the papers, that is birth certificate, immunization certificate, passport etc.

    So M, F, or X(for undetermined as yet)


  29. The recognition of third gender was based on a recommendation by the constitutional court, which sees legal recognition of a person’s experienced and lived gender as a personal human right. People of “undetermined sex will be allowed at any point throughout their lives, to identify themselves as one or other sex and register the change on their birth certificates. Although this has not been stated, if for example a person of “undetermined” sex at birth was raised as a boy, because of what his parents wanted or perceived him to be, and then at a later stage in his life, he became – say a teacher, John Thomas. He in the passage of time, if because of psychological difficulties – or other reasons wanted to change his name, and be formally known as Jane Thomas and dress as a female and continue to teach in the same school. This change of stated gender would make his/her life much easier.
    ========================
    THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS ABOUT SO CALLED HUMAN RIGHTS.

    NOTE THAT IN CALIFORNIA A MALE CAN NOW DECIDE THAT HE WANTS TO BE A GIRL AND USE FEMALE BATHROOMS AND LOCKER ROOMS IN THE GYM ETC

    SURE BAFFY WOULD HAVE LOVED THAT RULE WHEN HE WAS AT SCHOOL! ONE COULD EASILY PRETEND TO WANT TO BE A GIRL AND WREAK HAVOC.


  30. @ JUST ASKING | August 23, 2013 at 10:24 PM |
    “..all this talk just to legalize BULLING !!!
    See that they trying to pressure Queen Ifrica for her anti-same sex stance”

    Queen Ifrica also calls for the LEGALIZATION” of the use of CANNABIS aka Marihuana.
    Would you support her call on this one too or are you just cherry-picking?

    BTW, It is better if you use the word “Decriminalization” rather than “Legalization”.
    Certainly if something is legal it means you JA would have to obey the Law both in letter ans spirit. And we wouldn’t want you to be asked by the law to “bull” and smoke weed at the same time do we now? Unless, of course, you plan to move to St. John where only loyal DLP law abiding idiots arrived and reside. Negroman and Leroy Parris are two perfect native sons and daughters of the soil of St. John.


  31. Georgie

    Unfortunately for Baf, Gramma Sc’ools din have nah girls back then … well only a couple of them in six form but dey used the staff room facilities … The people at the Ministry wait till Baf leff school to start with this Co-Ed thing with all the girl fight side shows (that my son use to tell me ’bout) … Stupse ….!

    At least we had a couple of teaching freshettes from outta college with mini skirts and wearing thongs long before they became mainstream. One of them fell down the steps from the Geography class and all of the fellas rush to pick she up from the foot end. A couple ah dem fellas are Gyno’s now so one is free assume that they got their introduction on that fateful day.


  32. MURDAH BAFFY

    IF YOU HAD ONLY LOOKED! JUST THINK YOU WOULD BE THE GYNAECOLOGIST FOR AC AND THE REST TODAY LOL
    SHE NOT ONLY GOT BRAIN PROBLEMS SHE INTERSEX TOO LORD MA BELLY.
    WATCH NOW BAFFY……..WATCH! LOL


  33. Simple Simon | August 24, 2013 at 4:12 PM |
    But Georgie if as you say sometime gender cannot be assigned until 18 months are you suggesting that the child be a non-person until 18 months.

    THIS WOULD HAPPEN VERY RARELY
    TOO START REMEMBER 98 % OF CASES ARE DUE TO ADRENAL HYPERPLASIA WHICH IS NOW VERY EASILY DIAGNOSED


  34. I must admit that i am confused.

    This is going to give many a young fellow dating some real problems.

    In my day you went up to a girl and asked her for sex, knowing that she was a girl.

    True they were some girls who liked girls (like MM) but the question was a simple one.

    My son had the additional psychological challenges to adeptly ask, by inference and by other means, if his person of interest liked girls or boys.

    Whuloss, wid dis intersex tingy the dating game for my grandson is gine be mighty hard.

    Supposing you met and marry and intersex and when you married it, it was a she.

    Den, five years after the marriage, in de middle of de night, dem get up and become a he and you wake up wid dem pun you back trying to plough you depths, if you get my drift…

    Man it remind me uh dis DLP government, five years later, wid Sinckliar and Fumble, getting pun we back and trying a ting…

    An Baffy you was pun dat blog wid dem young tings round Kadooment saying dat you want to be young again? Man gi’ me de old times anyday, simple straight up question, widout dis intersex ting.


  35. why are you confused?
    intersex is nothing new.
    it is just better understood……………..and now being misused to promote the homosexual agenda under the guise of human rights.
    but since 98% are adrenal hyperplasia, they can easily and quickly be diagnosed
    intersex folk are also rare
    homosexuals are common


  36. Georgie Porgie, August 24, 2013 @ 10:24PM

    Your Presentation was timely, knowledge based and very informative. It is rare in Barbados for professionals to give of their time, experience and knowledge free to the many. I have said it before, I repeat it now only for emphasis, BU (Barbados Underground) is fortunate to have you on board.
    Thanks

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