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Talk Show Host Tony Marshall
Talk Show Host Tony Marshall

It is no secret that BU has been strident on the issue of the haphazard approach Barbados has approached the management of our immigration policy. It became a big concern under the last administration. The new government has informed Barbadians that a Cabinet sub-committee is currently drafting policy guidelines that will see rolling-out a ‘managed immigration policy’.

This week we listened with interest to Member of Parliament James Paul who expressed concern that the social fabric of our society is under threat. He gave the example that he is aware that Barbadian families are ‘taking in’ illegal and legal immigrants who were recruited to ‘work the land’. He defined the threat as the social fallout that is likely to occur to the traditional Bajan family.

Here is an interesting perspective from fellow blogger who runs Pull Push blog. Amit is  a Barbadian of Indian heritage and is peculiarly positioned to give a unique perspective.

It was interesting to listen to VOB Talk Show Tony Marshall attacking the issue of illegal immigration in Barbados. He expressed what the BU family has known and warned for a long time. In recent years little Barbados has open its borders to allow a gush of immigrants, illegal and legal from Guyana, Jamaica, China, Eastern Europe and elsewhere. Sometime ago we highlighted the the Italian restaurant on the West Coast known to have recruited waiters with visitor status. The issuance of work permits under the former administration were issued without rhyme or reason. We understand that since Minister Maxine McClean has taken over the responsibility it has become a little harder to get a work permit.

The point to our blog is to raise the query whether Voice of Barbados (VOB92.9) has departed from its policy of stiffling national debate on the issue of illegal immigration in Barbados. Moderator Tony Marshall seems to have picked-up a head wind on the issue, let us see how far his boat is allowed to sail.



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128 responses to “The Problem That Will Not Go Away”

  1. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    True dat Technician… like you, I really enjoying this exchange between David and BT.

    I want to ask David ’bout his issue with relativism (particularly since, a key factor in Obama’s success at the polls is the wave of moral and cultural relativism washing over the US/world – a wave, I might add, that he rode masterfully). But you know that ole saying: when giants fight the small ones get trampled… I gine watch from a safe distance till de dust settle between he and BT bo 🙂


  2. JC
    I made no comment on the poppy issue, because I thought some remarks were off the radar and no good ever comes from that type of discourse.

    I have always bought poppies and will continue to do so. In buying a poppy I remember young men like our National Hero the late Errol Barrow who as a young man flew planes for the RAF during the second world war and returned safely to our shores. I also remember the son of Mr Cumberbatch headmaster of St Giles Boys School -now deceased- whose son never returned to Barbados, and the young men of many colours whose blood has stained the cold damp earth of far off places.

    If I can make a small contribution to help the young men of today without limbs, I do it gladly. The hand of death does not respect colour and the tears of “all” mothers are the same.

    I seek not to convince or influence this is a personal decision.


  3. @MME….

    I am one who does not believe in role models per se… but when you come across people like David ,Bush Tea,Negroman and yourself,among others here on this blog, it makes me feel that all is not lost and there is a lot you can learn from people like you. If only we could have more thinking like this …Barbados would be a better place.
    Bob Marley once said if he was educated, he would be a damn fool. How true this has turned out to be.
    We have a lot of educated fools who are really nothing more than square pegs in round holes.

    I miss men like Gladstone Holder, he was my favorite columnist of all.This discussion reminds me of his articles.


  4. @MME,
    I too have noticed David tempting us to explore this concept of relativism. I was leaving it for you to deal with those high intellectual concepts (as I told Negroman). However I repeat that, IMHO, in the final analysis Right is right and wrong is wrong.

    Relativism is simply a convenient concept which allows the crooked and immoral among us to sleep at night. It argues that nothing is really ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ – it all depends on the circumstances…..
    – bribes can now be redefined as ‘gifts’
    – murder as collateral damage
    – and truth is subject to hidden agendas.

    It says “What God What?!? that does not apply to me….

    It is no surprise that, as MME puts it. there is a “wave of moral and cultural relativism washing over the US/world ”

    A civilisation that has been build on an unashamed foundation of greed and selfishness would naturally gravitate towards a religious philosophy like relativity..

    Unfortunately for them – and for all of us who feel otherwise, there exists some absolute spiritual laws, the consequences of which are inescapable.

    It is this inevitability that awaits us all – no matter what we think that we believe.


  5. @ Yardbroom, you said ”
    ***********************************************************************
    Unfortunately “most” of our politicians see national problems not in the way they impact on the majority population, they were elected to represent, but in the the narrow way those problems affect them personally or their families.

    With this mindset, the national interest has always and will always play a poor second fiddle
    ************************************************************************
    So Yardbroom, do the people not have a role in addressing this situation?

    Where did we inherit the ‘right’ to good governance?

    Is not the problem that we the people are THE SAME as the leaders? (and therefore cannot morally demand high values from them)

    Do selfish, greedy, immoral people DESERVE honest, selfless, Godly leaders?

    I say ‘a people always get exactly what they deserve….’


  6. Fair enough yardbroom and I hope you respect that I will not buy NO POPPIES from a boy! However I respect that you buy that is your choice!


  7. @MME

    I want to ask David ’bout his issue with relativism (particularly since, a key factor in Obama’s success at the polls is the wave of moral and cultural relativism washing over the US/world – a wave, I might add, that he rode masterfully).

    Not sure that your supposition is correct. Obama delivered his rhetoric at a level which resonated with voters. The fact that events unfolded to support his rhetoric shouldn’t be underestimated. Don’t think it had anything to do with a wave of moral and cultural relativism at all. In fact Obama’s voting record suggest a left of centre position but he ran a platform we are told from the centre. What it says is that he was able to sell a message to the voters which is not his true position :-).


  8. Bush Tea,Technician & the rest thanks for the support.I am a black proud,patriotic Barbadian who wants the best for black people and black Barbadians in particular.
    I know with some certainty this government wants to have an effective immigration policy in place.It is becoming increasingly difficult for employers to employ undocumented non-nationals.Immigrations models of The Bahamas,Bermuda,The Cayman Islands & some international countries were studied and are being study in the soon to be release new immigration act.Stringent measures are coming.However,opposition & pressure are coming from the reactionary groups in Barbados who are benefiting the most from cheap imported labour.The business sector in Barbados is threatening and undermining the government’s effort in this regard.I mentioned that Maxine McClean the minister is fustrated I know what I am talking about.The business sector wants to to hold the government & the country up to ransom.They want the reservoir of semi-skilled,unskilled,uneducated & undocumented non-natioanls to remain so that exploitation of those individuals could continue..
    Prime Minister David Thompson this is a test of your character.I want to see if you have the balls to take on the powerful business class in Barbados or will you capitulate to the desires of those scoundrels.Prime Minister David Thompson the business class could only gave you & your party financial support, but that sector cannot make you the leader of this country.It is we the people of Barbados who you will have to depend on to remain as Prime Minister.
    We the people of Barbados want decisive action taken on this illegal immigration issue.Grandstanding will not work.Stop the delay tactics and act.
    decisively on this issue or we will act decisively on you & your government.


  9. I congratulate Barack Obama on his election win in the USA Presidential elections.However,I am not that overjoy on his victory.I view his victory with skepticism & trepidation.
    I listened to his acceptance speech and what has me concern is the point he made that those countries of the world he perceive to be a threat to the USA he would defeat.He said words to that effect.I believe he echoed the same sentiments of George Bush only in a different language.George Bush said if you are not with me you are against me and we all know what George Bush did.
    Barack Obama during the elections was Mr Diplomatic & Mr Diplomacy.He talked about dialogue with world leaders including USA adversaries such as Iran & North Korea.Now he is President elect he is singing a different tune.I am going to scrutinize his performance carefully.
    I am of the opinion that white people in America felt relative comfortable with Obama because he has white genes in him.I believe that white America said when they cast the vote for Obama that they voted for a person who is half of them.Likewise black America felt the same way.Both ethnic groups should feel fairly comfortable with Barack Obama because he has both of these groups in him and they believe he can effectively represent both groups.
    I as a conscious black man view with real caution any black person that white people endorsed and supported and put up as our heroes.History is replete with many people of that ilk who White people force on us as role models.I make no apologies I am wary of Barack Obama.I have my doubts about him.
    I am wondering if Barack Obama with all the qualities he has now was the product of a black father & black mother would he be accepted by the whites in America & the people of the world as he is presently now receive?


  10. @ Bush Tea

    We the people have abdicated our moral responsibilities and laid bare the weaknesses within us, which politicians shamelessly exploit.

    Strangers – within our gates – and the very rich concious of this aberation, take advantage of our “greed” as money and favours are given for serious societal transgressions, that ultimately undermine our values.

    The common good is scarcely explored, the mantra “what is in it for me ” has become common currency.

    To take a moral stand on any issue is considered “old fashioned” and out of date, as naked greed and exploitation of the vulnerable – which we the people have become – is the accepted order of the day.

    Do we deserve it? Perhaps you are right…we do.


  11. Oh boy! I cannot believe what Negroman has written.

    America voted for the man, not his blood type. The man has been elected President of the United States of America.

    Pray for Obama and the rest of the World and let’s get on with it, for Heaven’s sake. Leave out this ridiculous race talk.

  12. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “What it says is that he was able to sell a message to the voters which is not his true position”
    ————————-

    🙂

    Agreed David… everything to (almost) everyone… not easy for the average person to pull off, but in the hands of the consummate politician it is the ‘perfect’ political platform, especially in an age of relativism. Things will become clearer in the fullness of time… they always do.

    David, where can we find that other type of leader… you know… the one who sells a message to voters/followers which IS his true position? We need some more of those right now… leaders for whom the message is more important than the vote.

    ‘Hold tight MME, a leader like that will be here sooner than you think’… that is me daring to read your mind BT 🙂
    I disagree of course… it is within our capability to ‘make’ (as distinct from ‘prove’) you wrong… at least this time around. 🙂

    On the scale of tests that MMEs (aka humans) will have to face, we only now reach 11-plus… O-levels, A-levels, degrees still to come. Of course there are those who want to ‘scrap’ the 11-plus and jump straight to the final exam… BT, I hope you en one a dem 🙂


  13. Bush Tea

    Its not that I am “sharing licks” as you put it. I am somewhat in agreement with your position on the management/worker issue and on relativism as expressed in this thread.

    Relativism is not a new concept, but it has recently been used to justify many an unsustainable position. It was relativism that allowed Bush et al to commit what is essentially a war crime by attacking a sovereign nation without provocation and kill thousands with seeming impunity..note I said “seeming”.

    It is relativism that allowed the white race, while claiming to be Christian, to enslave another race and keep it in inhumane bondage for four hundred years, still sleep at night and expect to get to heaven, whatever your concept of that is.

    On the substantive issue of foreign workers in Barbados, my stance is generally unpopular, but I feel that the competition was a dose of reality medicine sorely needed by the Barbadian worker of a certain level, who felt that Barbadian employers had to accept their poor work ethic and shoddy production and still pay wages suited to top performance.

    I have a problem, though, with your theory of predestination, if that’s what it is. My theory is that a person, a people, a civilization has within his/its power to determine his/its destination and the means of getting there and that there is no predestined end game, (global warming exemplifies). I am the first to admit that I may be wrong. I simply do not know..and neither does anybody else.

    To be certain about something about which one cannot possibly be “certain” borders on the irrational, which on everyday matters you do not appear to be, quite the contrary.

    You can “believe”, but you cannot know”.


  14. Micro Mock Engineer // November 9, 2008 at 8:49 am

    David, where can we find that other type of leader… you know… the one who sells a message to voters/followers which IS his true position? We need some more of those right now… leaders for whom the message is more important than the vote.
    ++++++++++++++++++

    I was looking at the words of the old song “Blowing in the wind” last night for some reason and thought these few lines demonstrate the problem you and others raise.

    “How many times can a man turn his head
    And pretend that he just doesn’t see
    The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind
    The answer is blowing in the wind”

    Do the words mean that there is an answer blowing in the wind which all we have to do is to grasp, … or do they mean that we are the answer ….. but we are blowing in the wind?

    Perhaps we are the leaders who determine the message!!

    If we are weak and stand for nothing, anything goes, including accepting a leader who speaks differently to what he believes … or worse, believes in nothing.

    The age of relativism will always with us, it is just an easy way out.


  15. … all that was neded to stop Hitler was a strong people who did not tolerate his excesses …… instead he got tolerance and blind faith.

    There are those who resisted, but too few.


  16. Lack of strong leadership, as against mere representation, may be accounted for by the preponderance of legally trained politicians in Barbados, maybe it’s the reason for Obama’s obfuscation too.

    Facts are irrelevant to attorneys, they deal in perceptions.

    Their very existence depends on how the jury/electorate are swayed by their arguments and half-baked actions.

    It appears their approach to any problem is not to tackle it forcefully but appear to be doing something so long as it can be acceptable to the majority.

    Strong leaders succeed by the courage of their own convictions, not the convictions obtained by clever words in a courtroom.


  17. Wow……lessons enough to be learned on this blog.

    @ No name who said…

    Oh boy! I cannot believe what Negroman has written.

    America voted for the man, not his blood type.
    ————————————————————–
    Maybe …they voted for the message…not the man or his blood type.

    I have found that the ones who have a problem with race discussions are usually the ones who cant deal with the reality of how black people …as a race were nearly destroyed, their history erased and their mentality corrupted.
    Negroman does make valid points but it seems that some of us would rather bury our heads in the sand, as opposed to dealing with reality.
    A lot of us think we are sitting on thrones …..but we are barely scotching on chairs.


  18. Negroman you know you are my man I love and adore you to the max for your tenaity and your courage to say how you feel. I am one who will never forget who I am and the struggles we as a people will have to endure, to achieve things in life. However, is’nt this why we are now in our own leader’s skin? dont we want him to check for bajans first what the hell are you telling me that you should not represent your own? That people should be able to knock on your door and do as they like in your territiory and you should allow them to do as they like come on negro man you know this is not right! thin about it if you were Obama as leader of your country wouldnt you not state your position and defend your position as well! Reading you for these past few months I know you would have done more than talk negro man lol!


  19. Only negroman would write something like that only negorman ha h ha hahahahahlol olol pure controversy I love it ha ha ha ha!


  20. @John

    The level of relativism through the ages is relative but who determines the level? It must be a generational thing.

    @MME

    Given the current state of things we find it difficult to anticipate the kind of leader who will drop out of the sky to deliver the message which goes against the tide. We have become too polarized between the races, and as Bt says, too sophisticated, sadly we have passed the point of no return.

    What we see is the need for purging to take place which might make the task of rebuilding much easier.

  21. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    man Straight Talk… you like you on top of your game right now too… wunna got me real frighten now 🙂

    I am loathe to philosophise on an otherwise excellent discussion… but I sense that this may be an appropriate time. BT said “It comes from WISDOM, David and that comes from only one source”… this is true, but incomplete without distinguishing between ‘Sophia’ and ‘Phronesis’… we began to touch on this in an earlier blog (i.e. the definition and role of ‘wisdom’ and ‘character’ in the context of passing our ‘final exam’)… unfortunately (or fortunately LOL) the debate fizzled before we got into aretaic ethics.

  22. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “We have become too polarized between the races, and as Bt says, too sophisticated, sadly we have passed the point of no return”
    ——————–

    I could not disagree with you more David. If anything, the races have become less polarized over time. As for sophistication, :-), we have not even reached Type I on the Kardashev scale.


  23. @MME

    We may not be fighting wars at medieval levels, we may not witness another holocaust, human bondage maybe a thing of the past (although replaced by cryptic racism) yet our world remains 24/7 in a heightened state of chaos e.g. Iraq, financial meltdown, human suffering in Africa, Darfur, Zimbawee and we can go on.

    BTW as we understand it the Kardashev scale is highly speculative 🙂

  24. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    Touché David 🙂


  25. “…. The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind
    The answer is blowing in the wind”

    @ John
    What a most appropriate song to come to mind….. almost akin to David’s continued offhand references to solutions ‘falling from the sky…’

    Suppose the answers to all those unasked questions were there all along –just waiting to be provided -at no cost to anyone who cares to ask?

    Suppose critical attributes (like wisdom) were freely available?

    What if, instead of accepting the free answers, mankind has for centuries been seeking instead to find our own independent solutions to these ‘unasked questions’???? ..with increasingly disastrous consequences?

    When the point is reached where it becomes obvious to everyone that the end result of our “way” is doom – what would you expect to occur?

    That song is an interesting (inspired?) commentary. It was adopted (the melody) from an old Negro spiritual “No more auction block” and appears to be timeless.

    …the answer my friend, is as free and available as the wind, the answers surround us all…


  26. @Micro Mock Engineer

    Skipper, why you don’t behave though? You want to go now and mash up the discussion with philosophy and dem’ edder intellectual things?

    You well know that I am talking about sophia. “The wisdom that comes from BBE”…. Paul called it the ‘hidden wisdom.”

    The most interesting aspect of this subject to me has been the ‘hidden’ aspect. Ever wondered why Jesus answered questions with parables?…

    What ‘earthly stories with heavenly meanings’ what?!?

    …it was so that those asking would not understand the answers.

    Ever wondered why the bible contradicts itself? is so confused? has bits and pieces all over the place?

    ….same reason.
    You see…
    There is a condition that MUST be met before sophia becomes available…. one does not throw pearls to swine….


  27. I couldn’t sit back and allow Negroman to misinterpret Obama’s language, since this is where debaters can mislead others
    .
    Negroman you said
    “I listened to his acceptance speech and what has me concern is the point he made that those countries of the world he perceive to be a threat to the USA he would defeat”

    The problem Negroman you are behaving like others, who have convenient hearing. By hearing the word “Defeat”you immediately jump to the conclusion that Obama was talking about military defeat like “Bush – the warrior” and not “Bush – the tea”; but you closed your brain down when he talked about mental defeat based on democracy and unyielding hope,

    Read an excerpt from his speech and silently apologise.

    “To those who would tear the world down – we will defeat you. To those who seek peace and security – we support you.

    And to all those who have wondered if America’s beacon still burns as bright – tonight we proved once more that the true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals: democracy, liberty, opportunity and unyielding hope.

    For that is the true genius of America – that America can change. Our union can be perfected. And what we have already achieved gives us hope for what we can and must achieve tomorrow”

    Tech, ah had to brek muh promise and interject this one time. Bye.


  28. MME

    I agree. Races have become less and less polarised.

    It is usually the older folk who raise the race issue, the youngsters don’t care a hoot.


  29. @ Tell Me Why…

    No worries bro…promises are made to be broken right?
    Wish you would come back on though…..those guys like MME, Bush Tea, David and Straight Talk have me here taking some serious notes….boy this week in the office I know I will be the man.
    @ John……
    …’the youngsters dont care a hoot ‘……..hmm, dont think I can really agree with that statement though. Even though it is less obvious than years ago. Here in Barbados it is still rampant…check out the night clubs, social events like motor sport or any liming spots. Anyone can still see the great divide….but hey..to each his own.

  30. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    “There is a condition that MUST be met before sophia becomes available”
    —————–

    Actually BT, there are seven conditions (or pillars) on which sophia is built, and two unpleasant but temporary consequences of hewing those conditions… but I am sure you already knew that 🙂


  31. I remember exactly what I was doing when Nelson Mandela was freed back in February 1990, …. and it was not watching the event on TV.

    I was waiting on a couple of guys who had set a time to meet and who were late for that appointed time because as they explained rather pompously afterwards, they just “had” to watch the event on TV.

    It was the thing to do.

    That day will forever remain in my consciousness because the more I see of this life, the more I think these guys were watching the event for all the wrong reasons.

    I think they missed the simple and pure message that the release of Nelson Mandela sent to all humanity.

    That message I grew to realise is that it is impossible to control and repress the the human spirit.

    I have watched Nelson Mandela on TV several times after that event and at no time did I ever get the impression that he took his stand because he was black.

    He did it because it was the right thing to do and because the spirit in him would not let him do otherwise.

    He listened to that little voice in his head and heeded its directions.

    Sometimes that is all we need to do to get the answers which are within us.

    The strength, inspiration and werewithal to fight for any worthy cause comes with the decision to walk the walk … and they come from the most unexpected places.

    If we are constantly blowing in the wind, we will never get the answers to life’s long term questions which are invariably within each of us.


  32. Technician

    Motor sports is a bad example to use because it exemlifies just how little race means to young people today and how much interest the racing generates.

    It is probably the most popular sport in Barbados with fans of every colour, class and creed, both male and female.

    Its popularity is based on the little child in each of us and the fascination with speed.

    In my youth I was an avid Bushy Park fan, not so much now.

    The crowds I see on TV at the rallies and race meets are far more racially mixed than are the crowds I see at Cricket.

    The attendance is to do with what interest an individual has in the particular sport, …. as you say, to each his own.

    You probably won’t see me at any of the race meets or at cricket because I just can’t sit still for the whole day and concentrate on one event.

    … but both interest me!!


  33. @ John…

    All I was pointing out was where the youth are in terms of socializing as you say ..’the youth dont give a hoot’

    Tell me…do you see much integration @ motorsports?
    @ Carib Beach Bar?
    @Mojo?
    @Harbor Lights?

    These are some of the places where young people hang out and socialize. Yet still you can see the divide between the two main races.
    So dont say they dont give a hoot because it exists on both sides.
    Maybe it is not as ‘in your face’ as years gone by but trust me,,,it is there.

    You smart though…..you took out Motorsports and went off on a tangent….thereby avoiding the real issue….you a politician or lawyer by any chance? 🙂


  34. John // November 9, 2008 at 4:48 pm (edit)

    MME

    I agree. Races have become less and less polarised. It is usually the older folk who raise the race issue, the youngsters don’t care a hoot.

    John you should factor that polarization between the races is not only caused by racial tension. This is where we disagree. For example tension between races has been caused by ideology and religion. The current East/West rhetoric especially after 911 is a good example. The rise of Iran with the fall of Iraq has not helped. That’s one example.


  35. Never been to Mojo and I’ve perhaps been to Harbour Lights once in my life many years ago … might have been called something else back then … it was that long ago.

    … and it is not beause I don’t feel welcome, …. or for that matter that old.

    The few times I ‘ve been to Carib Beach Bar for a meal I have seen mostly tourists.

    It is alot to do with interest.

    Apart from a visit to the Alhambra in Spain back in 1979 I have never been inside a Mosque not because I don’t feel welcome but because I have never felt the urge to go ….. and I can count the times I have been inside a Roman Catholic Church on the fingers of my one hand, … I can remember a wedding and a funeral … to be truthful I don’t go to church much.

    The separation seen at public places in Barbados today I think is more because of people’s interest, not because of their race.

    It is highly unlikely you will find me at the yacht club for the simple reason that the sea and me don’t agree.

    …. but I have had meals there before with members, and even swam in the sea when I was a boy.

    The intervals between my visits are usually measured in years, not because I don’t feel welcome, but rather because I rarely have the need to go.

    That’s been my experience.


  36. @ Inkwell
    One small point, you said….
    *****************************************************************
    I have a problem, though, with your theory of predestination, if that’s what it is. My theory is that a person, a people, a civilization has within his/its power to determine his/its destination and the means of getting there and that there is no predestined end game.
    ********************************************************************

    My theory is EXACTLY as you outline yours. Human Beings have the freedom to decide their individual and collective actions- which then determine the final outcomes realized.
    The fact that prophecy, or some super-human intelligence- is able to preview the outcome is a separate, distinct, and independent reality.

    Additionally, if someone with the required knowledge (ie BBE) could look at the situation from outside of the totality of existence as we know it, it could be possible that the collective outcome is ‘preknown’ in a manner of speaking – even though the players on earth had, (and exercised) their individual freedom of choice.

    This would be similar to a modern spy satellite observing two enemy forces advancing from opposing sides of a hill.
    It is not difficult to prophesy a coming battle…. And even a winner – based on their relative strengths.

    But predestination as in events being preprogrammed …. NO WAY.


  37. Bush Tea:

    It’s very interesting to have you reveal more of your discovered philosophy and share with us in some small way this character building exercise.

    But now you have me flummoxed “But predestination as in events being preprogrammed …. NO WAY”.

    Have I mistakenly took you to believe in the coming rapture?


  38. You all think that young people dont give a shit about race ha ha ha ha ha lol lol lol what ever ok ok whatever!


  39. OK ST, my bad!!

    I was responding to predestination in terms of individuals and groups being free to make whatever decisions that they may choose to make.

    I thought that situations like the rapture – or even the planning of D-Day by the allies in WWII are more like planned events rather than predestination per se.

    The way I saw it then, the fact that God may have decided that on Dec 22, 2012 will be the end of this phase is not predestination as we are discussing it.

    If your (or my) actions, decisions and other choices were preplanned and occurred outside of your (or my) control and will, then THAT would constitute predestination.

    I plan to go to work tomorrow morning – that is not predestination, just pre planning…

    If I found myself having to go – no matter how I felt about it or against my free will – Then….

  40. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    Anyone remember Rev. Jim Jones and Jonestown in Guyana?

  41. Micro Mock Engineer Avatar
    Micro Mock Engineer

    @BT & ST… the two uh wunna got me confused now. Not that I am surprised, because this weekend you have both been at the top of your games… like athletes on steroids… or Bob Dylan on what ever he was on when he wrote “Blowin’ in the Wind”… but I digress…

    There is no conflict between free will and predestination… they coexist in Phase 1. BT I think you hit the nail on the head when you used the phrase “how I FELT about it” at the end of your last post, although I am not sure you did so intentionally (it is hard for a sober MME to tell, given your preamble LOL).

    You see, in the physical world, what will happen has happened… you did (or did not) go to work tomorrow BT… while you may think you have control over that, you don’t… all you have control (or free will) over is how you feel, or will feel, about it.

    The events in and around our lives are preprogrammed… our threads already spun, measured and cut by Lachesis, Clotho, and Atropos :-). What isn’t preprogrammed is how we respond to, or experience, these events… how they shape our character… how well we maintain the communication channel between the physical and spiritual worlds.

    Like Shakespeare wrote: “There is a divinity that shapes our ends, rough-hew them how we will”… then again, he was probably on the same ‘medicine’ you & ST are on.


  42. John says…..The separation seen at public places in Barbados today I think is more because of people’s interest, not because of their race.
    ——————————————————————————-
    I have to disagree here John. When I go to these places, the interest is great on both sides.It is after all, a place to lime after work or on weekends.You have a good gathering of both races but while there, you can almost draw a physical line through these places.
    Why ?
    Both are here but hardly ever mixing.
    Get out more John….please.
    Gone are the Yatch Club days…but the mentality still lives on for generations.
    The other worrying factor to this divide is this nonsense called CLASS……but that is another topic for another day…have a good one.


  43. The PDC is pleased to presently report to the people of Barbados that there are appreciable movements along the lines of the broad masses and middle classes of people of Barbados coming to a greater understanding of the need for the vast majority voters in Barbados to stop electing BLP and DLP Governments in this country.

    We take comfort in those facts from the point of view that more and more Barbadians are becoming more and more sick, tired and fed up with DLP and BLP Governments in this country, and therefore are resolved to telling us exactly how they feel about the DLP and BLP, and are also resolved to giving us – the PDC – more and more moral, political and other kinds of support and encouragement at this stage.

    And, just as the face of American politics and political sociology is somewhat changing, with the ascension of Mr. Barack Obama as the President-Elect of the United Sates of America, so must deeper change of the politics and political sociology of Barbados come about in the country, however.

    The PDC is sensing, too, that so many more Barbadians than in the last election are really wishing for fundamental social, political, material and financial change – and for the better – in Barbados, that they are very excited about our strategies concerning the Abolition of Taxation, Abolition of Interest Rates, Abolition of Motor Vehicle Insurance, Exchange Rates Parities with the Barbados, Non-Repayment of Institutional Loans for Productive Purposes, et al.

    Finally, at this time of economic recession in Barbados thousands upon thousands of Barbadians are seriously and reeling from the effects of rapid declines in disposable incomes, increasing lay offs, increasing costs of living, and declines in standards of living in Barbados. Yet, what is so dreadful at this stage is that both DLP and BLP are in no position to seriously help the broad masses and middle classes out of this present political economic crisis – which, ironically, they have helped to despicably create.

    PDC


  44. John will like to fool black Barbadians tthat integration of the different ethnic groups is alive & well in Barbados.That is not so.Whites & Indians in Barbados do not mix with black Barbadians as a normal practise.Any mixing of the races occurs as a result of either the whites,Indians and I will add the Chinese linking with Black Barbadians who might be of some help to them in their business or social life.The whites,Indians & Chinese will form strategic linkages with Blacks for benefits that will come as a consequence.In addition mixing is on a very limited scale.I must also indicate that anti-black blacks & token blacks who are suffering from inferior complexes and believe that mixing with whites or other ethnic groups will make them feel like a person of worth are the blacks that will desperately try to link with whites & other ethnic groups.Those black Barbadians jokers endure sheer humiliation & bad treatment just to gave the impression that they are accepting by other ethnic groups.Those are shameless waste of time blacks.
    In the night clubs in Barbados there is no real mixing of the races.I remember the days of the Banana Boat in Maxwell Christ Church owned by that stinking white,pig smelling Robin Walcott of Carlisle Club & Carambola Restaurant fame.He shut down the Banana Boat because too many black Barbadians were going there.He did likewise with the Carlisle Club in Bay Street.He sold it for the same reason.Many whites night clubs & bars owned & frequented by white Barbadians suffered similar fates because the whites owners & white patrons did not want many local Blacks in their establishments.James Blades of Coconut Court Hotel in Hastings ran a bar in St Lawrence Gap name Taps On The Bay.He shut it down for the same reason too many blacks going there.Likewise he did a similar thing with Red Rooster opposite the same Coconut Court Hotel.There are many other instances such as Wharehouse & Pier 29 in Cavan Lane Bay Street.
    I am not a foolish,gullible black Barbadian that could be fool by stupid clowns like John,Reluctant Non-Believer & the rest of idiots that want us to believe that racism,segregration & ill treatment of black people do not occur.
    Those clowns if they are black are no use to the black race.Those humbugs should eliminate themselves.


  45. Negroman please tell these gullible peo;le about the headlines in tday’s nations teen’s death does this sound like an ordinary killing you know me! What do you think does this sound normal! hmmmmmmm!


  46. Well Well! Top post Negroman. You described the situation on the rock to perfection. The names you used are perfect examples to illustrate your points. Every word you said is true. Over at BFP that blog and its white posters are trying to fool the world that Bajan blacks are racist.


  47. Technician

    I do get out alot, … you would be amazed.

    My experience of Barbados is not limited to one or two night clubs. It is just that I only reach there occasionaly, sometimes not at all!!

    I don’t make it to Rum Shops much either although I have been to some and have enjoyed myself there with friends and acquaintances.

    Do you see the same separations here too?

    For me Night Clubs, Rum Shops etc. provide entertainment which doesn’t always appeal to me so I don’t go there much. W

    hen I do go there it is for a specific reason and I am yet to be disappointed or feel slighted.

    Maybe I am guilty of turning my head and not seeing but I think it is that I just don’t look for all these separations which many look for.

    I am too busy enjoying the occasion to confuse my head with what I consider to be trivia.

    I once worked in Malaysia alongside a couple of other Bajans. Soon after we arrived, three of us went walking after work.

    One guy announced that he felt everybody was staring at him. I told him he was being sensitive at which he took extreme offence.

    He was convinced people were staring at him because he was black.

    I just shut up and enjoyed looking at the people, the scenery and the differences.

    He relaxed as time went on.

    We all made good friends over there and enjoyed ourselves.

    Relax and enjoy life.

    It is too short to spend looking for issues which may or may not exist.


  48. @Negroman: “Whites & Indians in Barbados do not mix with black Barbadians as a normal practise.Any mixing of the races occurs as a result of either the whites,Indians and I will add the Chinese linking with Black Barbadians who might be of some help to them in their business or social life.The whites,Indians & Chinese will form strategic linkages with Blacks for benefits that will come as a consequence.In addition mixing is on a very limited scale.

    @All… I’m sorry, but I have to ask this…

    @Negroman: You have internalized you yourself are a racist. Correct?

    @Negroman: So, as a follow-up question: where is your moral footing?


  49. I want anyone to challenge my analysis of the reason why many white owned nigh clubs in Barbados shut their doors with in the last 30 years or so.Iwant anyone to name 1 single night club in Barbados where local whites & locals blacks socialise in great numbers.

    JC the sub-culture of the murderous Indo-Guyanese has arrive in Barbados.The death of the teenager in St John on Saturday is the type of murder that is new to Barbados.
    How can somebody in their right mine could gagged the hands & feet of a little teenager girl and then set the house on fire with the little girl trapped.Only wicked,demonic,criminals would do such a thing as that.Those type of murders are common to Trinidad & Guyana.
    I warned Barbadians on numerous occassion on these blogs that those of things will happen in this country as a result of the demographic shift with the high influx of degenerates.More of that type of activity is to come.This country is facing a disaster of immense proprtions.These are perilous times for black Barbadians in Barbados.We are on the road to be like Trinidad & Guyana.
    JC we would not hear so we have to burn now.Pun intended.


  50. Negroman,
    does it count that James Blades is in a serious relationship with a Black woman? Probably not … she is probably an anti black black!

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