Submitted by Cherfleur

SOCIAL JUSTICE NETWORK & CLINICS
CBC Pension Scandal
In the High Court of Judicature – CV 2550 of 2002

In September 2000 CBC paid out the proceeds from a CBC/ICB Group Non-contributory Pension Policy to a named beneficiary. The 2nd Claimant is the rightful heir to the deceased assets. The named Beneficiary, Dawn Abrams-Grazette (defendant), first told the Claimants and their attorney Dr Haynes Blackman that everything belonged to the 2nd Claimant. Upon instructions by Dr Blackman that his Clients would be taking charge of the Estate, the defendant became acrimonious. She claimed she meant everything in the estate.

Pensions are Trusts and are part of a deceased estate under protection. I started from this trajectory. Thus ensued two decades long search and battle to bring these proceeds back to the rightful beneficiary.

The defendant claimed that since the named beneficiary was her it was hers and was for
her only. You can learn a lot from a dummy!

The 1st Claimant would have none of this. Court proceedings were initiated using the Succession Act. Dr Blackman died, the second Attorney became a judge then Rositta Babb died, Carolyne Herbert died. All these attorneys agreed that the second claimant had priority to the beneficiary as per the Family Law and Succession Act.

Between 2002 and 2015 a dozen attorneys were consulted and all reiterated that once a
named beneficiary is noted that is that.

CBC for their part and as Administrator/Trustees of the Group Life Pension Plan did nothing, like claw back or rescind the payment since they had that authority under a non-contributory Pension Plan. It was the CBC’s Plan not the insured/deceased. Instead the then General Manager hid behind a veil claiming the CBC carried out the deceased wishes. Not forgetting it is a non-contributory pension plan. The GM is now Chairman.

Between 2015 and 2018 the claimants retained a new attorney and was told that they had to prove that it was intended for the minor by way of the specifics of the plan. The attorney tried to get information from the CBC regarding the terms of the Plan. Though information about the kind of Plan and when it was effected was provided CBC refused to give any information regarding the operation of the said plan and who intrinsically is entitled to claimor benefit from it.

At a deadlock the 1st Claimant suggested that if the attorney could not by authority get CBC to hand over the information she would take over the case and so the attorney pulled out. This signalled apparent blood dripping and the defendant’s attorney jumped at the opportunity to strike out on the grounds of an abuse of process but the 1st Claimant argued differently. The matter was adjourned to March 2019 for submissions from both parties. The 1st claimant took charge and reread all the information received for CBC and ICB’s Members’ Handbook and proceeded. Listed in the information was the fact that the policy was effected in 1996 (the year before the new Insurance Law which states a named beneficiary is final)

A visit to ICB met with more stalling because the Letters of Administration had expired. They too refused to cooperate. However the Members’ handbook had clearly stated that benefits were for dependants only. It also stated that the Master Plan for this Policy was lodged with the Inland Revenue Department (IRD) which was originally the statutory body handling Pensions and Insurance.

Submissions were filed within the deadlines but the matter (because the claimants were
self represented) were being adjourned and adjourned until red-phone calls began to fly.
During all that time the Claimant visited four locations of the IRS now BRA only to be told
Pensions and Insurances are being handled by the Financial Services Commission (FSC).

In October 27 2019 the parties met before court for pleadings. The Judge was unwilling to
hear from the ‘unrepresented’ party. However pleadings proceeded and the matter was adjourned to January 27 for a Decision and Claimants to seek counsel. There was no need
for counsel since all submissions were already filed. The adjournments were working in the Claimants’ favour.

A visit to FSC and discussions and explorations revealed that the two instruments are very different. In the words of the Officer: Pension is not Insurance. Dumbfounded the Claimant asked to clarify that statement and was told each has its own legislation. Armed with this new information the Claimant filed further submissions to include this detail as well as new independent submissions for the second claimant reinforcing the right to maintenance and priority…

On January 27 there was no decision forthcoming. New pleadings erupted about the further submissions and the erroneous defence of using the Insurance Act to defend a Pension Plan.

The matter was again adjourned to April 1st for decision. There was a national lockdown
from March so nothing came of that, although some sectors were functioning virtually,
including the Judiciary. The courts resumed operations since May 18th but no decision yet forthcoming.

From May to now is four months where decisions are due within three months.
From January 27 to now is eight months.
Barbados is a twilight Zone.

Even the Judiciary where justice is sought is of questionable behaviour. Its rank of incompetence and other odiousness. It is no wonder the cases are backed up. Judges playing the A********* all the time. Clogging up the system with cases that need only be heard once and discharged but rather adjourning and adjourning and
adjourning. Its a scam.

As long as it takes, a decision one way or another has to be made. It cannot be made in favour of a defence on the Insurance Act.

  1. The 2nd Claimant has priority as per the Succession Act
  2. The Pensions Act and ICB Handbook and Master Plan dictates benefits for
    dependants only. The 2nd Claimant is the sole issue and dependent of the deceased.
    Me, just me and my statistician and secretarial skills was able to unravel a rather
    straightforward case in effect. No mystery no intrigue. Just common sense.
    Twenty RH years. Paying attorneys that were spewing more RH. I could have decided to defend this case since 2002 and be over and done with it. But nothing happens before its
    time.

The claim before the courts is for:

  1. Return of the Policy proceeds and interest and multiplier (% devaluation of each $1)
  2. Damages for duress and opportunity cost
  3. Devastavit of estate
  4. Disgorgement (seizure of all gains made from the proceeds).

I do not know how attorneys are learning or how they are serving clients but they are just not impactful and or knowledgeable in uncommon areas of the law.  One attorney, number 13, with a PhD was adamant that I didn’t stand a chance because there is a named beneficiary. None of them noticed (or perhaps they were representing the defendant or protecting CBC), that the particular policy went into effect before the amendment to the Insurance Act (1997).

My advice to employees of CBC is that they check and update their beneficiaries to their Pension Plan regularly to ensure that who they want to have it gets it. Do not depend on the Administrators of the Plan. It is either they do not know or understand their responsibility or the operation of the Plan or it was a grave duck up.

Secondly, mothers who have children with workers at CBC and are eligible for Pensions (10years service) should ensure that the beneficiary form is completed properly and where necessary an added notation (on the Form) expressing who the proceeds are for where there is a named beneficiary other than the children.

All is well that ends well.

202 responses to “CBC Pension Scandal”


  1. @ Donna Can the named beneficiary be a minor child though? I don’t think so. I named my mother as beneficiary until my son turns eighteen. I can trust her to do the right thing.
    That’s the problem. Why that individual was named as beneficiary.
    What would the process be if one hsd nobody whom one could trust? Good question.
    Barbados has a Custodian and Trustee Office (which I found out during all of this) but it only administers estates for deceased if on;y of a small amount. Highly paid, highly educated personnel and nought.


  2. @ Greene
    Thank you Sir.
    Half teh comments about cash cow and lawyers getting fat and Claimants this and that are all because commentators missed the salient point(s).
    I understudied the likes of Buffett and Bloomberg and you know who (infamous) et al and Shridath Ramphal, Lionel Luckoo, F Lee Bailey and Johnnie Cochran 🙂
    And feasted on Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew then Agatha Christie and Sherlock Holmes. 🙂
    Motto: No stones left unturned.
    If there is a question there must be an answer.
    If there is a missing link, chink or piece, it must be found.


  3. @ Hal I reported on the Maxwell Scandal (the bouncing Czech) as a news event – tracking his time minute by minute to the time he went missing from the yacht. I also reported on it as a long-running pensions case. He once gave me a T-shirt when he was the Aids campaigner.
    Good for you. I have great respect for Journalists, having worked at a national Newspapers, and Investigative Journalism. I noticed someone trying to diss you as a Column writer v the Auctuarian.
    Many mysteries are solved by journalists snooping for a great story then leading the cops to the culprit.

    Be careful. Journalists are an endangered species nowadays. 🙂


  4. @ Critical Analyser The claims being put forward also come across to me like the claimants are very angry the defendant that got the money initially agreed and later decided not to pay it over to the deceased estate. From the time they received the cheque in their name, it was the defendant’s money to do with as they pleased.

    Not so Jose`
    The minor’s father (the deceased) always said EVERYTHING HE OWNS IS FOR HER. I always knew that. She said everything but she did not itemize wht.
    The defendant said what she had to say to Dr Blackman when he approached her the first time. whether she had said that or not. I was on the case as Sherlock Holmes, for everything that he owned. The 2nd attorney got that specific information from CBC.

    For fear you and others might ask; I was residing out of the country he time at tof death just before.


  5. @CuhDear Bajan.
    you do amuse me often. I can be self-righteous and say do not get involved with men who have wives they are still married to
    But I won’t. Some men don’t tell women they are married.
    You would have read that I advised that parents who have children with employees at CBC, Statutory Corporations, and now other private firms must approach HR and inform them of their child/ren’s existence.
    I a situation where there is an estranged spouse ask the employee to get him/her to waive their rights to her % or have him include the child with the spouse (if its an open relationship) so the 1 child/2 children max (as per CBC/ICB Scheme gets his/her %
    Specifics apply to each individual Contract.


  6. @ BU anything placed in this public space….
    Respect.
    sometimes we (outside the legal fraternity) speak loosely and get scratched.
    I was reacting to some of the questions coming my way because I am not privy to the internal workings of the CBC or ICB or many of the institutions related..
    Even though I said thise case I meant the body of information and knowledge and questions that arose from the time of the first contact with CBC to filing. Discoveries. How CBC and ICB et al operate and manage I am only getting a “glimpse” I am now more bewildered.

    Thanks to this blog and this conversation and contributors I know were are in great danger.
    There are so man more questions than answers to this particular Scheme.


  7. @ CuhDear Bajan
    correction: 2 or more children (as per CBC)


  8. Time out.


  9. That must be one of her best…
    I heard a voice from a next room asking “Who dah”
    Gazerts family stamp of approval.


  10. Hants,

    Cherfleur seems to be a driven person with boundless energy. Makes me tired just thinking about her exploits.

    I must be getting old. My brain needs a timeout too.


  11. cash cow and legal fees its not automatic. The Court Procedural Rules (CPR) guides how fees are calculated for cost as per various cases.And even other fees for services have Statutory guidelines,
    Lawyers around are not making that great amount of money. Its why things happening.
    Lawyers make much on Conveyances (don’t get one of those every day) and yes on Litigation for large projects and Insurances (not usually Pensions).


  12. @ TheOGazerts,

    I have been a Glennis fan for more than 3 years and posted some of her videos in the Diaspora corner.
    The Ladies of Soul are awesome. Check You Tube if you are interested.

    Interestingly I did a little research and learned about slavery in the Dutch colonies but my main interest is the music as it inspires me to take up the Axe and play lead and rythym.

    Attending a Ladies of Soul concert in Amsterdam is one of two items on my bucket list after Covid lol.


  13. @ Cherfleur

    I re-enter this discussion to offer some clarity, as the blog is getting clogged with the usual verbal stone throwing and heckling, but little education.
    Remember, there are three types of pensions, the three tiers: State pensions, occupational pensions, and private pensions. State pensions are funded through national insurance contributions; occupational pensions through contributions from members (if contributory), employers and the tax man; and private pensions are simply private investments.
    The state manages the state pension fund through an agent, mainly the NIS in Barbados; occupational funds are managed by the pension funds, one of the big investors in any liberal democracy; and private pensions through insurance companies.
    Remember, a pension is legally deferred pay, not a benefit. The member has earned that money. Pension scheme assets must be separated from those of the employer and managed differently, by member nominated trustees (different to corporate trustees), who have a fiduciary duty to members to provide benefits and, crucially, to act in good faith.
    The promise by the employer to make contributions is a contractual one, employers also have a duty of good faith. Scheme actuaries responsibilities are restricted to calculating the final salary; the life expectancy of the member; predicting the rate of inflation; dependents’ liabilities such as life expectancy; and, in some instances, predicting investment performance.
    I will mention briefly investments. Pensions funds are invested for two purposes: income and growth. The intention behind scheme investments is to meet obligations. But avoiding a hazard is more important than growth, that is why regulators are very strict in the vehicles that an insurance company or pension fund can invest in, including minimum risk taking.
    You mentioned Robert Maxwell. After that scandal, the UK introduced the 1993 Pension Schemes Act and the 1995 Pensions Act, to close the gaps exposed by Maxwell. Most provisions came in to force in 1997, and they included such new provisions as transitional priority order, minimum funding requirement, limited price indexation, and, most importantly, the abolition of the Rule 75 requirement, which stipulated that at age 75 all pensioners (I dislike the American word retirees) had to buy an annuity. The Act also created the position of pensions regulator.
    What may be of interest to you, is that Sec 67 of the 1995 Act prevents employers from making changes to pension schemes which might diminish members’ rights.
    I also want to disabuse you of the idea that there is any similarity between pensions systems in Barbados and most under-developed countries and developed liberal nations. Any such suggestion is as ridiculous as saying our parliament is based on the Westminster/Whitehall model.
    I will start with the legal framework. Since 1981, when the dictator Pinochet introduced his new pension in Chile, every single developed nation has introduced new pensions systems.
    And what they all have had in common is that they looked first at existing system before framing one suitable for their own countries and cultures.
    So, in New Zealand, we got the KiwiSaver; in Australia the superannuation fund; in the UK stakeholder pensions and auto-enrolled pensions (this was a compromise from making pension savings compulsory); and in the US 201(K). The old Soviet empire have all embarked on similar new pensions.
    What is also important is the generosity of the financial sector with their accumulated knowledge, especially as far as journalists are concerned. They do not indulge in the nonsense about knowledge is power, but they willingly share their knowledge.
    On my paper we had three forms of training for young journalists: in-house or external, organised by the company; courses organised by fund managers, pension funds and insurance companies for their own staff and which they invited journalists to sit in on; and courses organised by other training bodies.
    This was not only because of their generosity of spirit, but because they wanted to be accurately reported and, through that, informed their clients and would-be clients.
    I will give some examples: AXA, the french insurance company, held (or still holds) an annual residential course at one of its rural country mansions at which journalists from every country it operated in were invited.
    It was attended by senior managers, from the CEO down, at which they were day-long seminars for up to four or five days. It was not just PR, every senior manager would make an objective presentation on his area of specialism after which there would be Questions and Answers. If the person did not have the answer immediately, they would go away and come back with the answer.
    Legal & General held monthly two-hour long seminars on issues of the day, presented by one of their senior managers or economists, this was in addition to other training opportunities they provided, such as residential courses on financial advice. Fund managers did the same about their products’ performance and on the equity markets, fixed incomes and alternative investments.
    In addition, organisations such as the CFA Institute organised a summer school, along with regular (monthly) seminars and business schools often offer reporters training. Some universities and colleges offer paid-for courses in pensions law.
    So, in short, journalists are well trained, over and above their basic university training. I hope this clarifies some of the issues.


  14. In the US 401(K)……


  15. @ Hal Austin
    GM
    Thank you.
    I had no qualms about the depth or quality of your presentation/contributions to this issue. I agree with you totally. I learned all that you spoke of during my journey. Social Justice Network (SJN) is all about learning and collecting information to share and assist other less fortunate persons in this world of unjust, evil and cruel people.
    I have great respect and admiration for Journalists. I am one that had long thought the Police were unnecessary if society provided adequately for all through social services, education and training etc. I now see the US calling for same and labelling it ‘defunding’.
    Good Journalists can do much of Police work (opinion) and serve communities in very tangible ways.
    Training is desperately lacking or inadequate around here (region). The effects reared its ugly head in some of the comments here and during my investigations.
    Thanks for your tolerance and patience in setting out the facts in such detail so that others would at least start their own inquiry.
    I look forward for the day when someone/agency would see the need to mount such training for industry practitioners so tht the products and quality of service to the public is of the required standards. There is just too much paper certification (leading to arrogance) and not enough knowledge sharing and or appropriate training.


  16. @Cherfleur

    Thanks


  17. @Cherfleur

    His REASONING rather than the fact compels him to state categorically that “pensions are insurance” in the face of all the Laws that states differently and the FSC who is the Body Supervising all financial instruments. I hope he is not at ICB.

    Because they are regulated differently and serve different clientele does not negate the truth of Walter’s statement. A pension, at its most basic, is simply a form of longevity insurance.


  18. An occupational pension is a retirement income as already explained. A private pension is an insurance contract, written under contract law or under trust law (also already explained). We can play with words, but this is the case is all liberal democratic countries.


  19. @Hal Austin

    What’s your point?


  20. @Dullard
    About ?


  21. @Hal Austin

    Do you think your interventions above “offer some clarity” as you say? Your knowledge of the area is anecdotal and rudimentary at best; mildly interesting for a laymen but not much use to those in the know.


  22. Cherfler,
    Keep up the good work!


  23. @Dullard

    I cannot understand what you are saying. Where did I mention anything about anecdotal knowledge? I was simply clarifying what I had earlier said. You are free to agree or disagree.
    Have a nice evening.

  24. Walter Blackman Avatar

    cherfleur August 18, 2020 6:17 PM

    “I learned that the author is an Auctuarian. He is eloquent in articulating on Annuities etc and competent in calculating mathematically, outcomes and futures….aka Annuities.
    His REASONING rather than the fact compels him to state categorically that “pensions are insurance” in the face of all the Laws that states differently and the FSC who is the Body Supervising all financial instruments. I hope he is not at ICB………

    Yes, because pensions are a fund that money is contributed to over a period of time to benefit an employee in the future (retirement) they are computed using Annuity calculations just as for Insurance. Does that make them Insurances? Categorically NO. Insurances are not set up as Trusts, Pensions are.”

    Cherfleur,
    I have said it before and I will say it again. Providing public education is a very difficult and thankless job.

    I am not here to determine what you know or what you do not know. I prefer to make you think and reflect upon some basic, rudimentary concepts.

    If you were to take a careful look at the National INSURANCE Scheme of Barbados and other countries of the Commonwealth, you will find pensions under that INSURANCE umbrella. I did not place pensions there.

    If you were to take a careful look at the Social Security (Known as Social INSURANCE) structure of the USA, you will find Old age, survivors, and disability pensions under that INSURANCE umbrella. I did not place pensions there.

    You need to produce the part of the CBC pension contract that governs the naming of beneficiaries, and you also need to cite the relevant laws that state that pensions are not a form of insurance.

    PS: The professional you are referring to is called an actuary, as Robert correctly pointed out to you.


  25. Insurance is simply a process of saving up today in case of problems tomorrow. It is basic risk management. So, a meeting turn, or sou-sou, is also insurance with the payout being smoothing.
    Saving up for a rainy day is also a form of insurance at its simplest. No one in his right mind will describe an ordinary access bank account as an insurance policy.
    The legal definition of insurance, however, is different. Only the state (ie social insurance) or an approved company Insurance Company X, can provide insurance cover. On the wholesale side, re-insurance is another matter.
    An occupational pension is simply deferred pay. That cannot be defined as insurance. An annuity is a contract with a private insurance provider.


  26. An occupational pension being deferred pay is precisely the argument I made to my attorney. It was accepted after it was researched.

  27. Walter Blackman Avatar

    Hal Austin August 20, 2020 3:50 PM
    “An occupational pension is simply deferred pay. That cannot be defined as insurance.”

    Donna August 20, 2020 4:13 PM
    “An occupational pension being deferred pay is precisely the argument I made to my attorney. It was accepted after it was researched.”

    Donna,
    A policyholder purchased a whole life insurance policy with a face value of $100,000. He lives to age 100, and the insurance company pays him $100,000.

    Someone argues that the $100,000 payout from the insurance company can be viewed as “deferred” savings. Seven billion people research this view and accept it.

    Would you argue that their acceptance prevents the purchased policy from being insurance?


  28. @ Walter

    A whole of life insurance policy is not an occupational pension. We are getting confused. And, in the UK an occupational pension is LEGALLY defined as deferred pay, not insurance benefit/payout. That is the law in the entire EU.
    An individual does not purchase a whole of life policy in an occupational pension. The only whole of life cover is death in service, which is one of the benefits of the occupational scheme, either bought by the trustees or self-insured by the trustees.
    By the way, if you have a whole of life policy you do not receive a payout not even if you reach the age of 100. I have already pointed to the special circumstances in which this is done by some insurance companies ie if you are on your death bed.
    Normally, if you have a whole of life policy and you are 100 you do not receive a penny. WHOLE of life means whole of life – when you die your beneficiaries receive the payout.
    You receive a payout if you have term assurance. ie if you have term assurance on a mortgage, the term reduces every year with the mortgage until it reaches the final payment due, when the term assurance policy will payout, giving the beneficiary the opportunity to clear the mortgage.

  29. Walter Blackman Avatar

    Hal Austin August 20, 2020 5:41 PM
    “@ Walter
    We are getting confused. And, in the UK an occupational pension is LEGALLY defined as deferred pay, not insurance benefit/payout. That is the law in the entire EU.”

    Hal,
    We are not getting confused. You are.

    Insurance principles are the mechanism upon which pensions are built. The pension plan itself is a form of insurance. The monthly benefits paid to the pensioner are called pension benefits or annuities. If you choose to call them deferred pay, knock yourself out.

    However, you are confusing yourself by incorrectly thinking that, when it comes to quibbling over semantics, someone is calling these monthly payments “insurance benefits/payouts.” No one has done that. Every field has its jargon.

  30. Walter Blackman Avatar

    Hal Austin August 20, 2020 5:41 PM

    “@ Walter
    By the way, if you have a whole of life policy you do not receive a payout not even if you reach the age of 100. I have already pointed to the special circumstances in which this is done by some insurance companies ie if you are on your death bed.
    Normally, if you have a whole of life policy and you are 100 you do not receive a penny. WHOLE of life means whole of life – when you die your beneficiaries receive the payout.”

    Hal,
    You are wrong.

  31. Walter Blackman Avatar

    Hal Austin August 20, 2020 5:41 PM

    “@ Walter
    You receive a payout if you have term assurance. ie if you have term assurance on a mortgage, the term reduces every year with the mortgage until it reaches the final payment due, when the term assurance policy will payout, giving the beneficiary the opportunity to clear the mortgage.”

    Hal,
    The policy you are referring to is called Decreasing Term Life Insurance.

    As the policyowner makes mortgage payments over time, the face value of the policy decreases to mirror the decreasing outstanding mortgage principal.

    If the policyowner survives the term of the policy, no insurance payout is made.

    If the policyowner dies during the term of the policy, the face amount paid by the insurance company at the point of death would give “the beneficiary the opportunity to clear the mortgage.”

    We have no idea of who is reading BU so, at all times, we must strive to ensure that the information given is accurate, clear, and easy to understand.


  32. Hal, You are wrong. {Quote}

    @ Walter Blackman

    Hal Austin ……… WRONG?????

    YOU CAN’T BE SERIOUS!!!! That man KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING AND IS NEVER, EVER WRONG.

    Imagine, PLT do a few economics courses doing his MBA and Austin does drop he sarcastic remarks to imply PLT ain’t know what he talking bout. But he Austin trying to tell we he do a few one day seminars bout insurance and pensions and that make he an expert.

    I thought I was the only body, but Dullard see right through he that his knowledge of pensions and insurance is anecdotal and rudimentary at best; mildly interesting for a layman but not much use to those in the know.


  33. @ Walter

    It is called term assurance in the UK the same way we talk about equity release from the equity in a property and you talk about a reverse mortgage.
    And yes, the term assurance provides life cover for the policy holder during the lifetime of the policy, which as I said reduces with the mortgage. If the mortgage is interest-only, the borrower will have to make provision to pay off the capital at the end of the term; that is usually covered by investing a planned amount over that period in the equity markets. That will provide the lump sum at the end of the repayment period to cover the capital.
    I think we are drifting away from occupational pensions and now talking about something else. To return to occupational pensions, in an environment where occupational pensions are normally provided, and in a culture of job mobility, there is a right of preservation, in that minimum contribution should be preserved to the normal retirement date. It must also have an actuarial value.
    Finally, there are a large number of professional people involved in pensions: from policy consultants, to specialist pensions lawyers, to pensions actuaries, to pensions administrators, to trustees, all are obviously not qualified actuaries, and, relevant to this debate, actuaries are not the most important of the professionals involved.
    a

  34. Walter Blackman Avatar

    Hal Austin August 15, 2020 3:00 PM
    “@ Walter
    It is nice discussing pensions policy with a pensions actuary.”

    Hal Austin August 21, 2020 10:14 AM
    “@ Walter
    ……relevant to this debate, actuaries are not the most important of the professionals involved.”

    Hal,
    LOL.
    I must congratulate you for the unmatched and indisputable skills you have honed in the area of intellectual acrobatics.


  35. @ Walter

    Where is the contradiction? In my experience the most important professionals involved in occupational pensions are the benefits consultants who pick the fund managers for the pension funds, I am sure you are familiar with the big names and the pensions lawyers. We have an association of pension lawyers in the UK, ask them how they define a pension.
    To ordinary scheme members the administrators are the most important because the administrators are the ones who do the paper work for them. Actuaries are backroom men and women who do the maths.
    Is that intellectual acrobatics? I appreciated having a civilised discussion with someone on pensions, or any subject, without trying to be rude or obnoxious, as is the BU way. Was I wrong?
    I have noticed that you sometimes ignore replies to points you make or change the goal posts, but have ignored it. For example, you continue to confuse occupational pensions with personal pensions. I did not see that as intellectual dexterity. I simply pointed out there are basically three types of pensions – st ate pensions, occupational pensions and personal (private) pensions. All these are sub-divided with their own provisions.
    I mentioned term assurance and you came back with another name. I put the name down to the jurisdiction you work in. It is the component of the policy that is important. What we call trousers you call pants; what we call waistcoats you call vests.
    But you agreed that term assurance is the policy which reduces with the remaining period of the insured product.
    I said in the UK the legal definition of a pension is deferred pay, you danced around that. Again I put that down to the jurisdiction. I am not an intellectual. By the way, you do not have to be a mechanic to be a driver of a vehicle.
    By the way, i accept you are an actuary and are more skilled at pensions maths than I am. I cannot count from one to ten without making a mistake. I however doubt it on pensions policy.

  36. Walter Blackman Avatar

    Hal,
    As the blogmaster would say, “you have had the last word”.


  37. I do not know what having the last word means, nor has anyone ever said convincingly what it does. But assume it means something.


  38. Have the last word
    Polite version
    I dun wid dat
    I dun wid you
    Makes no sense we two talking wid one annudds

    Impolite version


  39. @ Theo

    That is the literal meaning. But, as you know, these sayings have a deeper cultural sociological meaning. I always give the one of: don’t mind him, man. I know him.
    Or, as a British author (Guy Browning) writing on the British Constitution said: Britishness has more to do with the complex ways of saying ” I can’t grumble”, or “can’t complain”, or tut-tutting when someone fails to stand in a queue or pretend to be religious in order to get their children in religious schools (usually the best).
    For example, teeth-sucking is a disciplinary offence in most London schools and is very common among African and Caribbean people.
    As Habermas says, a public discussion is about the sharing of understanding if not we just talk at each other. We all understand the literal meaning of ‘having the last word’; but we do not share its deeper cultural and sociological meaning or even its history.


  40. When a fella says “you may have the last word,” in Bajan parlance that does usually mean he ain’t responding to you no more because he done with the discussion.

    Now, Mr. Know-it-all gine come now talking bout the cultural, sociological and historical meaning of that phrase, just to give people the impression that he is the brightest man on BU.


  41. Whole life insurance, or whole of life assurance, sometimes called “straight life” or “ordinary life,” is a life insurance policy which is guaranteed to remain in force for the insured’s entire lifetime, provided required premiums are paid, or to the maturity date. As a life insurance policy it represents a contract between the insured and insurer that as long as the contract terms are met, the insurer will pay the death benefit of the policy to the policy’s beneficiaries when the insured dies. Because whole life policies are guaranteed to remain in force as long as the required premiums are paid, the premiums are typically much higher than those of term life insurance where the premium is fixed only for a limited term. Whole life premiums are fixed, based on the age of issue, and usually do not increase with age. The insured party normally pays premiums until death, except for limited pay policies which may be paid up in 10 years, 20 years, or at age 65. Whole life insurance belongs to the cash value category of life insurance, which also includes universal life, variable life, and endowment policies….(Quote)


  42. Some of want to read the CNC pension plan. What were the pension rules. How did the trustees at CBC function if at all. Are there minutes of trustee meetings. Are the court minutes available for sharing?

  43. Walter Blackman Avatar

    I want to take this opportunity to warn BU readers about the danger of accepting “cut and paste” excerpts from any and everybody. As Hants often advises us: “Let Google before your friend”.
    It took me only 2 seconds to come up with this excerpt to support what I wrote before.

    https://www.kitces.com/blog/outliving-the-end-of-life-insurance-mortality-tables-the-age-100-tax-problem-when-life-insurance-expires/

    “However, the reality is that the underlying structure of permanent insurance, and the key characteristic that makes it affordable to have coverage – even in the later years of life – is that a “permanent” insurance policy actually has an ultimate maturity date, such as age 100. Which means if you live beyond that point, the policy “matures” and pays out its face value!

    Fortunately, policies issued in the past 10 years or so primarily use the newest 2001 CSO mortality tables, which were extended to a maximum life span of age 121, to reduce the risk of the insured outliving the end of life insurance mortality tables. However, most existing permanent life insurance was issued under “old” mortality tables with a maximum age of 100 (or even age 96), which means most permanent life insurance owners still have to contend with the possibility that they can actually outlive their life insurance… and face the tax consequences that come with it!”

  44. Walter Blackman Avatar

    “Let Google be your friend”

  45. Critical Analyzer Avatar
    Critical Analyzer

    @Walter Blackman August 22, 2020 1:09 PM
    What tax implications are you referring to? Is there some tax payable on the dividends if they cash-in?

    On another note, I don’t see why someone fortunate enough to live until 100 would not have cashed in their insurance policy years earlier and enjoy some of the fruits of their labour before they go to the great beyond unless they don’t need the money because they are rich or have a great pension or other income source allowing the to live comfortably.


  46. On BU

    “You may have the last word” means

    “Get lost do!”


  47. @Hal Austin August 21, 2020 2:45 PM “without trying to be rude or obnoxious, as is the BU way. ”

    O lordie, lordie.

    Looka who is referring to others as rude and obnoxious.

    Isn’t it Mr. Super Rude & Obnoxious himself?


  48. I t hi more intellectual dexterity or just ignoring different jurisdictions?

    Here are some cut and past definitions from the UK jurisdiction:

    Whole-of-life insurance is a type of life insurance policy which ensures that, no matter when you die, your loved ones will receive a lump sum payout from your insurer. This is in contrast to term life insurance, which only guarantees that there will be a payout should you die within the specified term of the policy.
    Whole-of-life insurance explained – Which?

    A life insurance for over 50s is known as ‘whole of life’ cover, because it covers you for the whole of your life, no matter how long you live. You’ll often be immediately covered for accidental death and have full cover after a year or two.(Quote)

    What is whole-of-life insurance? Whole-of-life insurance is a type of life insurance policy which ensures that, no matter when you die, your loved ones will receive a lump sum payout from your insurer.
    This is in contrast to term life insurance, which only guarantees that there will be a payout should you die within the specified term of the policy.
    How much does whole-of-life insurance cost? Whole-of-life insurance is generally a more expensive form of life cover than term life insurance or family income benefit insurance, for the simple reason that insurers know they will definitely have to pay out some money at some point.
    You must ensure that you can afford the premiums, not only during your working life but also once you retire. If you fail to keep up with your premiums, the cover will be cancelled.
    That said, many whole-of-life policies will only require you to pay premiums up to a certain age, typically to age 90. This will vary between insurers and policies, however, so read the terms and conditions of any policy closely before taking it out.
    The actual cost of your whole-of-life insurance policy will be come down to a host of factors about you, such as how much cover you want, your age, your health and your lifestyle.
    What are the different types of whole-of-life insurance? Whole-of-life policies broadly come in two main types – balanced cover and
    maximum cover
    Balanced cover
    With balanced or standard cover, your premiums will stay the same throughout your policy. Even when you get older, and your health may deteriorate, you will still pay the same amount for your cover. As a result, your premiums are guaranteed.
    You will also have a fixed cash sum agreed upon which the insurer will pay out when you die.

    Maximum cover
    With a maximum cover policy, your cover is linked to an investment fund. The insurer invests the money you pay each month, in the hope that the returns generated from that investment will be sufficient to cover the cost of the eventual payout. Your premiums will then be reviewed on a periodic basis.
    If the investments are not performing to the level that the insurer wanted, your cover may be changed. The insurer may increase your monthly premiums, or reduce the size of the payout your loved ones will receive after you die.
    While these policies are likely to be cheaper initially, premium increases are likely and can, in some cases, be substantial. Who is whole-of-life insurance suitable for?
    One of the big selling points for whole-of-life insurance is that it can help your family deal with an inheritance tax bill. If your estate is worth more than £325,000, inheritance tax will be charged at 40% on the value of the estate above that threshold.
    However, the tax will need to be paid before your loved ones will be given access to the estate. You can find out more in our guide to inheritance tax.
    This can put your family in a difficult position – they need to pay a tax bill, running into the thousands of pounds, but they cannot use the money in your estate to do so. As a result, many are forced to take out a loan just to cover this bill. This can be an added source of stress at an already upsetting time.
    A whole-of-life insurance policy can help avoid this issue. The payout provides the funds needed to clear the inheritance tax bill without needing to take out a loan or dig into their own savings.
    This is reliant on the policy being written in trust, though. Find out more in our guide to how to write life insurance in trust.
    Whole-of-life cover may also appeal if you are determined to leave some form of inheritance to your loved ones, or if you want to help with your funeral costs.

    Who is whole-of-life insurance unsuitable for?
    Life insurance is really important if you have financial dependents, whether that’s a spouse or children who would be left worse off financially if you were to pass away.
    However, as you get older, those loved ones may no longer be so reliant on the money you bring in. Once you’re in your seventies, for example, you may have cleared your mortgage, while your children have long since left the home to start families of their own.
    As a result, you might prefer to stick to a term life insurance policy to cover you throughout the period on which your family is most likely to need financial help should you die.

    Can I cash in my whole-of-life insurance policy early?
    Some whole-of-life insurance policies will allow you to cash them in, and get some level of payout before you actually die. If you are tempted to do this, be sure to check the terms of your policy as the surrender value of your policy may work out as significantly less than what you have paid in premiums over the years. There may also be charges associated with doing so….(Taken from Which?)

    Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/money/insurance/life-insurance/whole-of-life-insurance-explained-anxck1z1266d – Which?

    http://www.which.co.uk/money/insurance/life-insurance/whole-…


  49. cut and paste…..


  50. @WB
    @HA
    I like you both.

    WB, you are not going to win with HA.

    HA takes the ‘last word’s as a sign of victory. He will have the second last, the last, and one after the last (as a victory lap).

The blogmaster invites you to join the discussion.

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