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Submitted by Douglas
Should polling be allowed during important elections?
Should polling be allowed during important elections?

Have a read of David Cameron’s comments (highlighted below).

Thursday’s Scottish referendum was interesting not just for what it said about Britain, but also for what it said about the state of political forecasting. I’m calling it a loss not only for the pro-independence movement — the “No” campaign won 55.3 percent of the vote — but also for the pollsters – Justin Wolfers

I totally agree with him; maybe pollsters should be sued for misleading voters by putting their personal opinion and spin on data collected to influence the outcome of elections. They are a parody of those  rating agencies  that manipulate their findings for their own benefit. Multilateral Corporations (MNCs) and some governments in the developed world  have been known to sue some leading international credit rating agencies for misleading investors and the financial/business sectors in the lead-up to the 2007 recession that is still very much with us. Perhaps, our so-called pollsters, who parade as impartial experts, should also be brought to book.

Cameron: Queen ‘purred’ after Scottish vote
LONDON (AP) — Britain’s Prime Minister David Cameron has been overheard describing his nervousness about the Scotland referendum and how Queen Elizabeth II appeared relieved when he called to tell her the result. The leader was being filmed chatting with former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg in New York when microphones picked up what they said. The video showing the conversation was broadcast Tuesday on Sky News.

Cameron was heard describing how the Queen “purred down the line” after he called to tell her “it’s all right, it’s OK” after Thursday’s referendum, in which Scots rejected independence and chose to stay with the United Kingdom. “It should never have been that close. In fact, it wasn’t in the end,” he told Bloomberg. “I’ve said I want to find these polling companies and I want to sue them for my stomach ulcers because of what they put me through, you know. It was very nervous moments.”

A spokesman from Buckingham Palace said it never comments on exchanges between the Prime Minister and the Queen. The Queen is prohibited from taking sides in political debates and rarely makes her personal views public. For that reason, she surprised many when she told well-wishers before the referendum that Scots should think “very carefully about the future” before voting. Following the vote, the monarch said in a statement “all of us throughout the United Kingdom will respect” the poll’s result, and that mutual understanding will overcome the “strong feelings and contrasting emotions” during the Scottish debate.
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AP broke the following story in July last year. The US government’s actions came after a thorough investigation by its Justice Department that turned up outrageous and improper behaviour. Big banks, financial institutions and credit rating agencies have paid out billions of dollars to the US government, so far, because of their alleged ‘infelicities’.

U.S. Accuses Ratings Agency Of Fraud In Lead Up To Financial Crisis
WASHINGTON
— The Obama administration on Tuesday accused Standard & Poor’s of refusing to warn investors that the housing market was collapsing in 2006 because it would be bad for business.

The civil charges against the credit rating agency were the administration’s most aggressive action to date against those deemed responsible for contributing to the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. They followed years of criticism that the government had failed to do enough. The Justice Department accused S&P of knowingly inflating its ratings of risky mortgage investments that helped trigger the crisis. It’s demanding $5 billion in penalties.

According to the lawsuit, S&P gave high marks to the investments because it wanted to earn more business from the banks that issued them. “This alleged conduct is egregious – and it goes to the very heart of the recent financial crisis,” Attorney General Eric Holder said at a news conference. Experts said the lawsuit could serve as a template for future action against Fitch and Moody’s, the other two major credit rating agencies.

High ratings from the three agencies made it possible for banks to sell trillions in risky investments. Some investors, including pension funds, can buy only securities that carry high credit ratings. Holder called the case “an important step forward in our ongoing efforts to investigate and punish the conduct that is believed to have contributed to the worst economic crisis in recent history. Michael Robinson, a former communications official at the SEC, said that while all three major rating agencies – S&P, Moodys and Fitch – have lost credibility since the financial crisis, S&P’s downgrade of U.S. debt put a bull’s-eye on its back. “Once you get on the government’s radar, it’s hard to get off scot-free,” Robinson said.

The government charged S&P under a law intended to make sure banks invest safely. If S&P is found to have committed civil violations, it could face not only fines but also limits on how it does business. Critics have long argued that the rating agencies operate with a conflict of interest: They’re paid by the banks that create the investments they’re rating. If one agency appeared too strict, banks could shop around for a better rating.

S&P typically charged up to $150,000 for rating a subprime mortgage-backed security and up to $750,000 for certain other securities, the lawsuit says. If S&P lost the business to Fitch or Moody’s, its main rivals, the analyst who issued the rating would have to submit a “lost deal” memo explaining why he or she lost the business.

Analysts complained in 2004 that S&P had lost a deal because its standards for a rating were stricter than Moody’s. “We need to address this now in preparation for the future deals,” one analyst wrote. The documents “make clear that the company regularly would `tweak,’ `bend,’ delay updating or otherwise adjust its ratings models to suit the company’s business needs,” said acting Associate Attorney General Tony West. (AP)


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30 responses to “Polling, Pollsters and Manipulation”


  1. If on the basis of what is presented here and on a similar thread about a week ago. And given due defference to our colleague Bushie et al we fail to see how the science cum art of polling could be brought to this bar of ridicule. All a poll is, was and will ever be is a snapshot of perceptions at a particular point in time. Nothing more, nothing less. That a latter poll, an election, shows differently can certainly not amount to the scientific repudiation of polling. Yes, within polls there is always a margin for error but when a latter poll in taken that later poll now represents opinion at such a time. These more recent results would have now be influence by a greater number of variable. Variables impossible to capture in the original poll. Surely this is a reasonable reponse!


  2. @Pacha

    The issue is not what defines a poll BUT how it is used to dictate the narrative.


  3. Well yes. You are right. Sometimes we prefer to write less. Anyhow, the definition of the narrative is a political construct and may best be located within another branch/es of the social sciences. Polling can certainly not account for the ways information is used or misused. Polling can’t address that. It can only do what we have been describing above. Certainly, you would not blame the makers of steel for gun violence, would you?

  4. Easy Squeeze (Make No Riot) Avatar
    Easy Squeeze (Make No Riot)

    Revolution is for the Chinaman


  5. game given awat twice


  6. @Pacha

    Of course you correct, sometimes the confusion comes when pollsters use a snapshot of opinion to be generous drawing conclusions.


  7. […] David Submitted by Douglas Have a read of David Cameron’s comments (highlighted below). […]


  8. Drawing conclusions are the primary reasons for doing polls. At best those conclusions are subject to error, internally. Externally, any number of things could happen after the poll to change similar polls at any time in the future. Remember, in politics a day could be an eternity.


  9. @Pacha

    And this is the point.

    On Friday, 26 September 2014, Barbados Underground wrote:

    >


  10. @ David
    A doctor may take a poll, a biopsy, and the sample not representative of the mass. But we have to take another sample, no. Not stop taking samples, polls. And there may be exogenous factors that may render the mass in remission.


  11. @Pacha

    Have a read of the UK press, they are the ones scouring the pollsters.


  12. @ David
    Will do. We understand the flustration but we are more and more living in a robustly, dynamic world. Please have all types of information and respond to various stimuli. None of thes changes the science. This is opinion on science.

    Nearer home, the salaries/wages owed to Transport Board workers is a cruel indicator of the state of things in Bim. What is your prognosis for the near term?


  13. @Pacha

    Things are bad for some today and will continue science suggests to get worse for others. This week was historic with leading economists and the private sector giving government 19 month austerity measures thumbs down.

    On Friday, 26 September 2014, Barbados Underground wrote:

    >


  14. A doctor takes a biopsy sample and subjects it to “scientific” examination. A pollster takes a sample poll and subjects it to subjective examination. The results therefore are typically slanted whichever way the pollster leans. I have ignore these polls for the last dozen years as you can always find one that fits your beliefs, and just because you believe it, does not mean it is right, or accurate.


  15. ANOTHER FIRST <<PACHAMAN so far has not drawn any conclusion that polls are part of a conspiracy designed by the USA govt to funnel and gather information which could be use by the CIA ,,,welll so far ,,the night is yet young,


  16. @ ac
    We have writen over 60 articles here and many more elsewhere and you can reasonably distill them into this slimplistic soundbite. You have won. Gallop on!


  17. very interesting article,however it seems as if the narrative and comments so far are towing different lines.from what informative gathered i suspect the article narrative directs the reader to the art of manipulation trying to draw conclusions based on some high profile rating agencies and their linkage to pollster who concoct readings in stride to accommodate business for their own selfish gain .


  18. Pachamama

    If polls are designed by the United States government to gather information for Central Intelligence Agency /(CIA), then they’re not a reliable source of information. Because during the last General – Election, the polls predicted Romney a winner by a commanding margin. Come on now Pachamama, I am quite sure the CIA has better methods of gathering information on the American people as well as countries elsewhere in the world. The American government isn’t as stupid as some think Pach. Now, if the US government discloses to the general public a piece of top secret technology for example: the Blackbird /the Lockheed SR-71 or the Stealth bomber/ Lockheed F-117 Night Hawk; they have better….. I can assure you.


  19. @ Dompey
    It is not my contention about polls and the CIA. Somebody else made that suggestion, not us. We find it to be a tad dated, anachronistic if you will. All kinds of people, agencies use information for all kinds of different reasons. We have no dog in this fight – polls and the CIA, thank you!


  20. Pachamama

    I was using “(Night Vision Goggles)” in the Army and at a time when they were considered Sensitive-Equipment. Meaning that if they weren’t returned to the Armory at the end of formation, a barrack locked down would have ensued until they were found because they were considered top secret technology at the time.


  21. Lord help us!

    @Pacha

    What is your opinion whether economics is a science.


  22. And an United States soldier or a Marine knows that a barrack locked down is a serious affair. For general knowledge: a barrack locked is the psychological equivalent of being confinded behind prison walls and not being able to leave until you’re told to do so or has served your time. And under military police guard as well! I have experienced this unpleasant experience one in my military service.


  23. David, Economics is part of the Social Sciences brother. Pach, you should ask David, what is his definition of Science. It is the study of unknown/ natural phenomenon?


  24. David, the entire system of academics is divided into the Natural as well as the Social Sciences. So Economics must constituted an integal part of the Social Sciences right? Help me here Pach because I am speaking from my standard memory bank.


  25. Pachamama

    Why haven’t you address David’s question as of yet? Or must I surmise from your slow response that you’re still searching the internet for the answer to the question? You were pretty active prior to David’s carjacking tactics.


  26. David, I suppose there is some affair of national-importance in Barbados today because this blog has been without the characters who fuels intellectual- luminosity for quite sometime now?


  27. @ David
    The world considers economics as a social science. We believe that it is better defined as a part of politics and not as a social science in tis own right. We now wonder what can of worms we’ve just opened.

  28. Easy Squeeze (Make No Riot) Avatar
    Easy Squeeze (Make No Riot)

    Pacaha and AC are correct all Conspiracy Theories can be summarised as “it was the CIA”

    Not sure if Green Monkey has posted about Operation Northwoods US CIA Plot for Terror False Flags to go to War with Cuba.
    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/northwoods.html
    JFK didn’t follow through with them and got his cap popped off

  29. PLANTATION DEEDS FROM 1926TO 2014 MASSIVE FRAUD LANDTAX BILLS AND NO DEEDS, BARBADOS DLP/BLP MASSIVE PONZI FRAUD Avatar
    PLANTATION DEEDS FROM 1926TO 2014 MASSIVE FRAUD LANDTAX BILLS AND NO DEEDS, BARBADOS DLP/BLP MASSIVE PONZI FRAUD

    Dompey | September 27, 2014 at 10:32 AM |

    And an United States soldier or a Marine knows that a barrack locked down is a serious affair@

    Barbados can use a good lock down, to many things go bump in the night .
    Yes Dompey We Know, Lock down soon come along with lock-up the DLP and BLP crooks

  30. PLANTATION DEEDS FROM 1926TO 2014 MASSIVE FRAUD LANDTAX BILLS AND NO DEEDS, BARBADOS DLP/BLP MASSIVE PONZI FRAUD Avatar
    PLANTATION DEEDS FROM 1926TO 2014 MASSIVE FRAUD LANDTAX BILLS AND NO DEEDS, BARBADOS DLP/BLP MASSIVE PONZI FRAUD

    Polling, Pollsters and Manipulation@ Paid off to speak in favor of the most money given to the talker,

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