Sugar Hill Residents Asked to Submit to Fingerprinting

Sugar Hill Resort

Sugar Hill Resort

There is a situation which has developed at the plush Sugar Hill West Coast residential location. In light of the recent admission by the Barbados Police Force that the stealing of jewellery has gotten out of control this is an interesting move by the Police. Is it one of desperation perhaps? How does the BU family feel about the dilemma which Sugar Hill residents find themselves?

Dear Barbados Underground:

The police are requesting that all staff and contractors at Sugar Hill voluntarily submit for fingerprinting in relation to some breakins at the resort. Is this legal? Will they also be fingerprinting guests who stayed at the resort? What about friends of owners? People eating at the public restaurant during that time? What will happen to the fingerprints? This seems wrong and a bit racist. While it appears voluntary, there seems that there might be consequences if you refuse.

Concerned Resident of Sugar Hill

Letter sent by the Royal Barbados Police Force to the Operations Manager of Sugar Hill Adrian Gale.

The following is an email which was sent to the residents by the Sugar Hill’s Operations Manager in response to the letter from the Police.

Subject: FW: RBPF Finger Printing Staff at Sugar Hill

Dear All,

As you are aware our file was passed to the Major Crimes Department in the Royal Barbados Police Force (RBPF). They have requested that all Staff with access to the Estate be finger printed as they are in possession of some forensic evidence, finger prints, from properties that suffered burglaries. See attached their letter of request.

The program will be on Tuesday the 12th March through to Thursday the 14th of March in the Members Lounge from 9am to 11am.

Therefore I ask You and or Your Villa Managers to comply with their request and advise all the staff and regular contractors accordingly.

In order to control this process the Sugar Hill Reception will be taking the names and dates preferred for staff to be finger printed. Also be aware that the RBPF have the names of the staff working on the Estate and may be questioning why someone does not turn up to be finger printed.

Ps I will be the first in line.

Regards

Adrian Gale

Operations Manager

Sugar Hill Resort

93 thoughts on “Sugar Hill Residents Asked to Submit to Fingerprinting


  1. Hope they also fingerprint the guests who in the past have proven to be light fingered and vicious con artists. Problem is, in Bim they are never targeted but let’s see how that plays out.


  2. @David.

    I have read the Sugar Hill thing. My take on it is that of course staff may refuse to be finger-printed. However, to refuse does NATURALLY raise the suspicion level against those who refuse. If anyone refuses, the RBPF can certainly go and obtain (very easily) a court order requiring compliance, then they have got to give their finger prints – end of subject. To refuse would be a contempt to the court, which would entail arrest and mandatory finger printing in any case. End of story.

    The suggestion that asking for finger prints in such a situation is in some way racist, is in and of itself an inverted racist comment. The Police are merely going through a process of eliminating possible and obvious suspects. And the employees have to be realistic enough to accept that they are obvious suspects. The object of the exercise is to rule out the staff, not criminalize them, and they ought to agree to having their finger prints taken. Largely, I see this as a non-issue – EXCEPT!!!!

    Just one thing I would suggest. That the staff (or a group of the staff willing to be finger printed) (and they really ought to agree to it) should IMMEDIATELY telephone Andrew Pilgrim and ask him to represent them as a group. They can telephone individually letting him know that they agree to be finger printed and want him to look after their legal protection along with others similarly disposed. In this way, the RBPF must share their evidence with Andrew prior to the finger printing (and I urge this in light of the total lack of any discernible “police” investigation in the Crawford rape case and the clear manufacturing and ignoring of indisputable evidence and the clear evidence of coerced confessions. The bona fides of the RBPF are very far from being established. Especially in cases where these is the potential for international publicity, which you can, of course, if there is international publicity, expect those two prize clowns, Dottin (the CoP) and Leacock (the DPP) to exacerbate into a major news scandal.

    Andrew would also, I expect, demand the right to be present at the actual process of taking the finger prints and woe betide the police officer who is less than polite and courteous. I am surprised that Adrian Gale, whose brother is Barry Gale QC (QC deserved by the way) has not done something in this direction.

    But it really doesn’t matter. A court order for the police to obtain the finger prints will be forthcoming one way or another. Yes, it can be delayed and strung out. But frankly, if you are innocent, why bother to delay it. Just get yourself cleared BUT under the supervision of your own (or group) counsel. And frankly, for this sort of thing, Andrew is the best.

    What happens to the fingerprints? They go into the police records. I have no idea if they have a system like Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System (IAFIS) maintained by the FBI in the States and mirrored by AFIS systems in Canada, the European Union, the United Kingdom, Israel, Pakistan, Argentina, Turkey, Morocco, Italy, Chile, Venezuela, Australia, Denmark, the International Criminal Police Organization etc. If they do not, they should. And these fingerprints will go on to this system. It does not in any way impute criminality. HOWEVER!!!!!

    HOWEVER, what it DOES do is to once again underline BU’s crusade, largely ignored by successive governments, for a FREEDOM OF INFORMATION AND PROTECTION OF PRIVACY ACT such as exists in most civilized and democratic countries. It would very little effort for anyone with any sort of brain and legal training in the Solicitor General’s office (an office in which brain and acceptable legal training appear to be in very short supply) to adapt the Ontario Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act R.S.O. 1990, CHAPTER F.31 (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90f31_e.htm) for the purposes of Barbados.

    However, absent this legislation, it would be prudent for those who know they are innocent and want this sword of Damocles to be removed from over their heads, to ask Andrew to look after their interests, while cooperating with the Police.

    That is my take. And I would do nothing without the presence of counsel. Which is a right, not a request to the RBPF.


  3. So are they all suspects? It is not legal, although this will not stop Barbadian police from carrying it out. If they police suspect individuals they can arrest them.
    Where are our public interest lawyers? Go for a judicial review of the request?


  4. The leaders in Bim are well aware that if they ask US or Canada for help with drafting FOI legislation, these two countries will be more than glad to help. I maintain that all parties including guests, should be fingerprinted in the process of elimination.


  5. I agree in principle that the police/security services should have DNA/fingerprints of every citizen, but to pick on staff, for no real forensic reason seems a bit much. Who are the people buying this jewellery? How about jewellers and people who stockpile gold as a way of preserving wealth?


  6. On a side note…………Harlequin=clown=harlequinaphobia=you’ve been had………..time to fingerprint everyone for reference in international databases.


  7. @Amused

    It is sad when you would recommend that citizens contract a lawyer BECAUSE of a lack of confidence in the police force.


  8. I just passed Sugar Hill (SH) last night to go to Westmoreland, if I am going in that area again? Let it be on record I totally REFUSE to be fingerprinted, unless you have a warrant or recorded due cause to suspect me, otherwise Mgmt or whosoever can do what Duguid told Donville to haul… This is Inquisitional Tactics from SH and I will not take any SH I.T.


  9. The idea is wrong in principle, but if it came from management there ought to be a public out cry. If it came from the police they need to go back to training school.


  10. Barbados is slipping badly
    Too much time wasting in schools
    Teachers , especially the females , who are not suited as a species to be guiding anybody in how to live in the world, are not teaching the nation’s children. Most of the female teachers in Barbados are in it for the m-o-n-e-y.
    Bombard Cave Hill, -70% female students – Get a degree, come out with a snotty attitude, not wiling to do a proper job, just looking for m-o-n-e-y —AND there is your problem right there,

    Come on men, and this includes white men–Lets Take Back Barbados


  11. @Hal. You are talking dog. Get real. This has nothing to do with colour or race or gender or age or anything like that. The Police have the right to exclude suspects and in a hotel or resort situation, the first people they would want to exclude are the staff and that staff, common sense (which you appear to have woken up minus this morning) dictates that it is the staff that is first in line as suspects. In any other country, this would be a non-issue. It is NOT a big deal. And it is high time that Bajans came to accept this, if for nothing else, the good of our tourist industry. This culture of thought that no one booking a holiday is going to put up with any longer, has to cease.

    My sole concern is that the Police themslves have proved to be the “manufacturers” of evidence – and this time there are not two rape victims to deal with who can impugn the police identification. Therefore, until such time as stringent measures are taken by government to dismiss the COP and the DPP and clean up both their departments, you need a lawyer, so get Andrew.

    @David. Yes, it is very sad indeed that you need a lawyer in these circumstances, BUT until the PM and the AG develop the balls to go to the GG and have Royal Commissions set up for the dismissal of the COP and the DPP (and while they are at it, the CJ and 99% of the Bench and the Registrar) then the Sugar Hill employees should protect themslves by first getting a lawyer and then agreeing to provide their fingerprints. And don’t listen to Hal. These things can be obtained, not least by a court order.

    Personally, if it were me, I would take the same position as Adrian Gale and give my finger prints so that I was no longer under suspicion. But Adrian has a very high powered legal brother. If they try any nonsense with him, they will regret it to the end of their days and beyond. Others don’t have that advantage and so need to, as a group, get counsel first and then agree to be finger printed.

    Anyway, that is my best advice, so to the staff at Sugar Hill, take it or not as you see fit. Over and out.


  12. lots of jobs need a security check and fingerprinting to work there, this is not unusual. It is your right not to have it done but it is also the right of people doing the employing to hire people they feel safer with.A new policy may have to be started for future hires.Which would give the same result without offending anyone,


  13. @ Lawson
    Bang!
    You got that nail on the head.

    Competent management would have already collected such information from staff working in sensitive areas with international visitors who are wont to have valuables, be careless with them, and in come cases, be worthless scamps themselves.
    Such action would have even PREEMPTED many cases of theft in the first place…..

    Incompetent jokers find themselves scrambling AFTER the fact trying to collect such data…..such is the state of our leaders and managers.

    It is obvious that the DPP, Police and Army chiefs around here are untouchable. There is no way that such “donkey holes” could continue in those positions after such demonstrated and COSTLY exhibitions of incompetence.

    When MIA and company purchased that expensive espionage equipment for the Cricket World Cup fiasco and gave it to the security forces, little did they know the kind of info that it would be used to collect…..

    Now the clowns are running the circus.


  14. So who is paying for this finger printing protection .i meaning i hpe the owners would be footing the bill and not depending on taxpayers money afterall a program such as this cost money………….also the suggestion by amused in referencing to the staff having a lawyer as representation could be problematic to those whiose finances could less afford a lawyer.I say let SH invest in high tech security instead of shaming their staff into involuntary fingerprinting and adding more financial cost to govt.


  15. @Amused
    If anyone refuses, the RBPF can certainly go and obtain (very easily) a court order requiring compliance, then they have got to give their finger prints – end of subject.
    **************
    The whole gist of your submission strikes as Orwellian, a uniform body unable to come up with a list of suspects and refusal to submit for fingerprinting is treated as evidence of guilt. What happens to your fingerprints after you’ve submitted them and are cleared? Do they go into a database for future reference?


  16. Give the Police some credit. They are only asking for fingerprints.
    In the past their policy was “licks like peas”. If you did’nt do it, you certainly knew someone who did.


  17. @ David

    So what’s all the uproar about. I have been made to understand that all staff in the tourism industry have to be fingerprinted as a matter course when they are employed. Same as those who are engaged in day nurseries and and other areas of sensitive employment.

    So, big deal, as “Amused” suggested get counsel (perhaps the company would pay the retainer fee?) and clear themselves of any suspicion. And, yes, Ian Bourne would also have to be fingerprinted if he even passes close to the entrance of such residential areas.


  18. I can’t understand why some people are so steadfast in their belief that they are above it all and should be exempt, even when they are proven to be just as criminal minded……………I am just generalizing. As we all know that is par for the course in Bim.


  19. my question is, when the police take these fingerprints what do they do with them? are they going to put them in a national database once they are finish? this is very fishy to me.


  20. @ David

    I understand that in Barbados the fingerprint records are destroyed after a six-month period. Not too sure about that though as Barbados is a signatory to the INTERPOL organisation. So just maybe the records would/could be added to an international database. Any possibilities of us harbouring a “bajan terrorist” by any chance? :). Time to check IB the reporter?


  21. having said that, some of us choose to go to the USA and get finger print. so i really don’t know.


  22. @de hood

    The issue here is that the employees at Sugar Hill have probably not signed a terms and condition of employment which includes fingerprinting. Amused has offered them an option which they may refuse and deal with the fallout.


  23. @ David
    Why are you so surprised that we live in a police state. You must know that Big Brother is your constant companion.That has been an existential reality for decades. Nobody in Barbados can make a telephone call unless it is monitored, recorded and entered into data base. And this has always been so. With cell phones the situation is even more pervasive. Every key you touch on a computer could be known. Every website you go to is registered. You don’t see how Google knows where you like to go. The US government has enough terabytes in vast farms to store all electronic communication till their god comes. David, even private companies can access live satellite data of individuals as they walk around the place.

    The police force in Barbados is no stranger to the security state. For years they have been beating confessions out of poor people. It was Cheltenham who remarked that 90% of cases are based on confession, in Barbados. The police question suspects all the time without telling them about their rights etc. They conduct warrantless searches and seizures. If you have money in Barbados you are unlikely to have trouble with the beasts. The police are well trained to give certain people trouble as they seek to protect the elites. And Babylon kills people all the time, very few go to trial. Less end up in convictions. David you like to think you live in some sort of democracy when the truth is that we live under is oligarchy. With this structure of government there a coalescence of the economic and political elites. The police merely serve as the enforcement arm of this wicked system. They are to protect these elites. You don’t see every election we hear how the political elites steal money and not one goes to jail. Do you think this is an accident? This is the dominant international governing system also. But the sleepy people of the world are waking up. They are not likely to put up with this state of affairs forever.


  24. if the guests’ jewelery has been insured then also finger print them. the police in that are knows full well that a number of tourist claim to have been robbed of sums of money, jewelery etc, etc but what is an open secret is that the tourists just want that police report to take back home, so they would eventually be refunded the financial value of the items that were supposedly stolen. easy way to get money that they never had


  25. Folks get real, to obtain a job as a maid, butler or gardener at places like Sugar Hill, all applicants are required to produce a police certificate of character. A police certificate of character is issued by the police where finger prints are taken and then checked. I don’t know how accurate the police are BUT that is how it should be done. Today we have technology that would find matches in seconds that is if there is a national database. Let us hope that the police have gone to digital finger printing and hope that they are not still using the ink method.


  26. @ David

    There was mention of its misuse some time ago, no? I seem to remember some politician’s conversation was captured. This is the norm. Do you know that police departments are using drones and infrared technologies to even see you from behind walls, in your house. Even the labels in your clothing may have something called RFID, presumably for manufacturers to tract goods but once the tech is out there it can be used for any purpose. We even have companies who believe they have a right to put a microchips in the bodies of employees. This is 1984 as heading for dystopia. The money people know it and are even preparing for civil within the USA.


  27. The only interest here is the SH . Firstly the staff have already had to produce by way of letter a police letter stating that this person has no crimal record in orderto be employed i am sure that SH does there own employee background check. now why should an employee have to bear the additional cost of hiring a lawyer to ensure rights are not violated by police or faced the possibly ofbeing hauled to courts for involutary violation of not adhering to the wishes of SH or maybe even fired afterwa.rds.


  28. The issue here is that the SH employees do not have to agree to being fingerprinted however there must be aware of the downside to doing so in the real world.


  29. The Poe-lice will also need to be fingerprinted, them does do a lot of tiefing in Barbados.


  30. the truth i that the police will use someones refusal to volentare being fingerprinted as reasonable grounds to suspect, detain for questionioning( assisting the police) and then get the prints by force (compulsory).

    i however do not think this is racism as there must be black and asian residents and guests and white and asian staff and subcontractors. However it may be a case of class discrimination( socio-economic).

    Either way it smells of facisim and opression


  31. Seems to me that all they had to do, was require everyone who is employed there, persons on contractual agreements (pool, pond maintenance, etc) to get a police certificate of character. As far as i know, in order to get said certificate, one is fingerprinted.


  32. This is backward all the way. Its guilty until proven innocent and illegal as hell. There is no way that the police can force anybody to submit to finger printing unless they have specific evidence against them enough to charge them with a crime and book them. If it were me, I would say ‘hell no’. Once people start going like sheep to do stuff like this, the police and government will soon think they have a right to do this. They never even asked that people volunteer, seems like they trying to command anyone who works there. The emphasis is on ‘work’ becaue they seem to be threatening job security. I’d like to be the first to represent workers in a lawsuit for anyone fired because they did not comply with this crap. Well, Mr. Police Commissioner, if this is the way you conduct business, instead of solid detective work, you ought to be out of a job.


  33. nawadays u cant tell a policeman he head big because it would be seen as a charge, and in court de ppl in charge is tell you things like u cud live in a tree if they had they way wid u etc.if them doing de finger printing then honestly everyone should go along even the guest cause whos to say them hands aint light to get ya lawyer of course andrew


  34. Did it ever occur to some of some of u very intelligent people that probably graduated from some top universities around the world that think policing is a lowly job and that you can get it done that during the investigations of the police they found a fingerprint and that they investigations have led to someone who works there and by process of elimination want to fingerprint everyone who had access to the area in question


  35. This is so obviously not right.

    Any civil liberties lawyer in the US, UK, Canada and so on could build an entire career on this case alone. I can barely imagine the uproar that would erupt if there was a series of thefts in an apartment building in New York or London or Toronto, and the reaction of the building’s management was to get the police to record the fingerprints of everybody who ever had a reason to visit the building.

    Taking your fingerprints is like taking a DNA sample. It’s a unique marker. What will they do with the fingerprint records later?

    Unless I’m arrested on suspicion of committing a crime, I would no more let someone take my fingerprints or do a DNA swab than I’d let them implant a biochip in my neck.

    Kudos to whoever raised this issue. It needed being brought to public attention. Never thought I’d say this, but Kudos to BU, too, for making this known to a wider public.


  36. ac, March 7, 2013 at 1:40 PM:

    “now why should an employee have to bear the additional cost of hiring a lawyer to ensure rights are not violated by police?”

    Exactly. Excellent question.


  37. This stinks of fascism. Are the guests who report these robberies fingerprinted? As one person submitted, it has been proven that this is often a scam to claim big insurance money “back home”. It is extremely offensive and, if we had unions worth their salt, no owner/manager would even think of instituting such a measure.


  38. @ Hal Austin.
    Where are our public interest lawyers? Go for a judicial review of the request?
    —————————————————————
    Serving in parliament


  39. Here we go again… get out the lawyers palm up…Sounds like the Jamaican womans case when they searched her twice, I am a little confused if it was the same cavity twice or two cavitys once.Everybody has to decide what kind of world you want. Give up a few rights for the good of the island as a whole.Remember the cops are trying to catch a criminal.Or quit whining when someone is stealing your gold, killing your tourist industry, or the police never do anything


  40. Adonijah wrote, “As one person submitted, it has been proven that this is often a scam to claim big insurance money “back home”.

    I would bet that criminals from the UK and north America go on “working” vacations.

    No right thinking person should submit to fingerprinting for the purpose of excluding them as a suspect.

    This action at Sugar Hill is even more nefarious because in these tough times workers may be willing to compromise their integrity to save their jobs.


  41. @ adonijah | March 7, 2013 at 5:37 PM |
    “As one person submitted, it has been proven that this is often a scam to claim big insurance money “back home”…”

    There is much evidence to support such a contention. For years now this type of scam by some British travelers, especially among the “better off”, has been in operation. There have even been a few Media exposures including a Panorama programme and Channel 4 reports on this kind of insurance scam involving “alleged” stolen jewellery and other expensive personal effects while holidaying overseas; more so in so-called Third World destinations with incompetent and corrupt local police forces.

    Barbados now happens to be an easy target given the recent internationally publicised upsurge in crime against visitors and the beating to its image the country is currently receiving in the UK media.


  42. this sounds like a case of divide and conquer if only bajans would stick togather mentally in whatever they do it goes way back not only bajans ppl of our kind in general i know some ppl gona talk an say its not about colour but it is


  43. Adrian Gale:
    “Also be aware that the RBPF have the names of the staff working on the Estate and may be questioning why someone does not turn up to be finger printed.”

    You’ve got to be fcking kidding me. Where are we? Nineteen fifty fcking six?

    This is a written threat. This is intimidation. Hey, Ade? I’ve never met you, and in fact I’d never heard about you before today, but you’re a dick if you think this kind of rubbish is acceptable. You do not have one fcking legal leg to stand on.

    This whole story is utterly appalling. You want to start fingerprinting innocent citizens now, Ade. On what legal basis? What?


  44. To allow the RBPF to force citizens and/or residents of SH to submit to having their fingerprints taken, if they are not persons of interest in these robberies, is to set a bad precedent. Fingerprinting should happen only if CSI’s find fingerprints at the crime scene and need to confirm.

    If I worked at this resort, I would refuse – I feel certain. If my job depended on it, and I was made to submit, then I would want to bring lawsuit against those responsible.

    Still, I believe that anyone working in private or public sectors should be fingerprinted, as a norm – for their own protection. I would also add children who are too often kidnapped, should be fingerprinted. However, that is an aside.

    This situation is ludicrous and every Barbadian at home, or abroad should react against this nonsense. Visitors, some of whom are criminals, should not be exempted. This initiative is costly, to say the least. Who will surmount the costs?
    Submitting to this would be the beginning of giving away one’s legal and human rights. Who is to say what the next step will be? No way!


  45. @lawson | March 7, 2013 at 6:04 PM “Everybody has to decide what kind of world you want. Give up a few rights for the good of the island as a whole.”

    I don’t want to live in a world where the police , supported by my manager can show up at my workplace and demand that I be fingerprinted. Lousy management. Lousy policing.

    This Bajan does NOT intend to give up ANY of my rights “for the good of the island.”

    Rather this Bajan wants the island and its police to RESPECT, DEFEND, PROTECT and HONOUR…

    MY RIGHTS

    If the police have reasonable and probable cause to believe that anyone has committed a crime and they need to carry out a search (and fingerprinting is searching) then they should go to court and get PERMISSION, ie. a search warrant to carry out such a search.

    For a boss to say submit to an unlawful search or else….is lousy, bad management.

    And for the police to collude in this is disgraceful.


  46. His thing is the not so thin edge of the wedge.

    Next thing you know the police will show up at Amused’s home, without a search warrant, and demand to search up ‘is ‘rass, and up his wife’s pokey, and the hard drive of their computers, and their bank accounts, and demand that Amused his wife and all their children give DNA samples.

    These too are searches.

    The question is do we want to live in a country where the police and the bosses do these things?


  47. No-one is getting the lash, whats being asked is a pretty standard request for a lot of jobs….Do you have life insurance? When you have to take a blood test to get it, is that against your human rights, are they to believe what you said is true rather than making sure you dont smoke, have a disease etc before giving you a policy. As to the tourist theft Insurance companies in my experience are pretty clever they do not like to pay out.So right off the bat there is a deductible then there are all the questions why did you take it with you, did you report it at customs, prove you even had it with you show me some pictures etc, I am sure they would be checking all your credit, and past history if the loss is large enough they may not even cover it out of country without a special ryder It can certainly be an inside job but more often than naught it isnt


  48. @ David:

    It would be interesting to find out if the new Employment Rights Act passed in our last Parliament speaks to such an issue or offers protection to workers in similar circumstances.


  49. @Lawson
    No-one is getting the lash, whats being asked is a pretty standard request for a lot of jobs
    *************
    If that is a condition of employment it’s one thing but to ask people to submit to fingerprinting after they have been employed is another and a major invasion of privacy. If the company wants to put this condition in place for future employees they may be free to do so but the employee would be able to decide if this is the kind of company he/she wants to work for. In this job market many (potential) employees will accede to any demand because they want a job.


  50. See this story made the Nation newspaper this morning.

    BTW one million in gold stolen for the year according to Commissioner Dottin. The CoP has repeated his Advisory. No doubt he sees a big problem here. Let us hope he turns his attention to the Judiciary next.


  51. @David

    What civic/moral/legal responsibility is required of those in the Gold/Jewellery purchasing businesses? Do they record the identification of individuals who sell items to them? Do they keep records of any such purchases? Can law enforcement access any records that they have?

    If they don’t do any of the above I can only say that they are “legitimate” fences who are aiding and abetting the trafficking of stolen goods.


  52. as I said before institute a new policy going forward you will achieve the same results, once you have the fingerprints whether you get them now or a year from now you can make the comparison then. Those who do-not want to be fingerprinted will move on.One of two results should be achieved the thief is caught or the thief moves on.either one is acceptable.Others should learn from this experience and review their situation in regards to employing people or access to sensitive areas, There are no shortage of morons out there scrounging for scraps oblivious that they are destroying the economy with each criminal act.When the people at the top have to drive a volkswagon instead of a lexus action will come quickly.


  53. @ Lawson
    The problem with the approach outlined by yourself and Amused is that, while well intentioned, it is the path to hell.
    Case in point- the USA’s Patriach Act which is conceived to “protect the Homeland” from future 911 type events has in fact resulted in America becoming very similar to Nazi Germany in terms of the potential LEGAL use of police and military power on ordinary citizens.

    If those in charge could be trusted to be honest, fair and just, then such an approach could be allowed…..BUT put a devil in charge and we are all up shit street.
    We are just lucky so far that those in charge have generally been intellectual Lilliputians….

    Have you any idea how the fancy surveillance systems handed to authorities for WCC11 are being used?
    LOL it certainly is NOT against the cash for gold, or local drug lords…. But note that not a boy can fire any of those big boys – althought they continue to demonstrate how incompetent, stupid and backwards they are, and to destroy our tourist industry in the process.

    How is the Lie Detector equipment being used?
    Is it to intimidate those who appear to challenge the positions of the boss? Are calls of high ranked officials monitored?

    When your fingerprint info get into the wrong hands who is to challenge a (false) claim next year that your “prints” were found at such and such location?…..if you should rub the wrong person the wrong way….

    If a worker’s prints are taken UP FRONT, then at least that worker knows (or ought to know) how to operate accordingly. ….anything else can easily constitute entrapment.

    This may not be a simple case of catching a thief. It may be an elaborate setup to the next step when a lie detector test is mandated for every citizen annually…

    Are You David of BU?
    Are You the same GP who cussed Freundy on BU?
    ….Dodds for wunna tails… 🙂


  54. @Bush Tea

    Thanks for the headsup but when one understands why we exist and the insignificance of our temporal existence in the grand scheme of things, accepting the consequences of decisions we make is NOT a problem.


  55. Dey have lie detectors in Bim? They are based on bogus science ah wonder who approved that purchase? Sum ah dese politicians don’t have any respect for taxpayers money. Since they are here next Election lets apply them to all politicians get them on the platform; hook them up to the politicians and fire away wid yuh questions.

    I imagine since that suggestion is out there by next Election they will have an “Out of Order” sign on alla dem.


  56. @ David
    “……Thanks for the headsup but when one understands why we exist and the insignificance of our temporal existence in the grand scheme of things, accepting the consequences of decisions we make is NOT a problem.”
    ************
    Skippa, you OK?
    That sounds real deep yuh!
    …Cause if we REALLY understood why we exist we would be so overwhelmed with the potentialities that the lotta nonsense that we blog daily would be embarrassing.

    On a more day to day note however…
    Are you saying that when a senior police officer questions one of the now notoriously stupid decisions of his boss, and is subsequently deemed to have failed a lie detector/ drug/ security test and retired/ demoted/ posted to Culpepper Island – that “the consequences of decisions we make is NOT a problem.”?


  57. @Bush Tea

    Look at it this way. Such an occurrence creates the opportunity for others to demonstrate leadership.

    Some of the daily noise and claptrap on BU serves to remind of the importance of those who have seen the light 🙂


    • @Sargeant

      To your earlier question, speaking from memory there is a piece of legislation to be read or proclaimed to give to strengthen the legal framework around the cash for gold trade. Legit cash for gold businesses ask for ID and captures an image of the item being sold. In other words they have records which the police can use to track jewellery sold. The issue here is clearly not the legit businesses.


  58. the BDF uses polygraph testing ,but ask any solider and they will tell u they abuse it


  59. This is all a bit strange. Were the robberies from residents or visitors? When the robberies happened were the people at home or out? What type of things were taken? None of these questions have been answered.


  60. According to a police report in today’s Nation “Bajans have been robbed of jewellery valued almost $1million in the first two months of the year”

    Now unless the robbers are keeping the gold under thier beds, they must have sold the gold to the cash for gold byers. Is anybody checking to see who these byers are?

    Note that also in today’s Nation 3 women, one of them middle aged, and a young man were charged for stealing hair worth $887 dollars worth of hair, and 2 nail polishes , and some other petty item. All four of them were remanded to jail, because the court feels that they are a danger to the community. On the same page of the Nation a 24 year old “businessman” named Esuf I think, he looks of Syrian parentage was charged with having more than $50,000 worth of cash on him. This cash was in U.S. dollars, pounds, ever Saudi Rials. He was given bail.

    Evidently the court thinks that this young man is of no danger to the community.

    I am curious to know where a young fella would get $50,000 cash in many varied currencies from.?

    It makes me wonder. A middled aged supposed hair thief and her friends are a danger to the community and people with huge amounts of cash are not?

    Are any of us really surprised then that a million dollars worth of gold can disappear just so and the police cannot find a trace, nor charge a fella…but they have the time to arrest and charge hair thieves?

    No wonder people are losing respect for the law.


  61. I think that Barbados and Barbadians are PERMITTING themselves to be corrupted.

    They have let others cause them to believe that money is God.

    If we sow the wind, you will reap the whirlwind.

    Please note that a lot of wealthy Syrians cannot go home again.


  62. @ Simple Simon | March 8, 2013 at 9:28 PM |
    “They have let others cause them to believe that money is God.”

    It’s the only “God” that has universal concordance on this diverse planet. It’s the only currency in whichever form or denomination that is exchangeable among all religious sellers and buyers. The other god is just the banker to be used or expended as the dice of luck rolls around.


  63. Excellent Hants for all those who say justice is not even handed read this article. We have the airport screening doing its job, the police did theirs, and the legal system worked. The violator said he does not want a repeat performance of that, The world looking in sees a compliant secure island with laws all citizens and visitors have to follow.Job well done


  64. i am not a lawyer, but having seen the letter from the COM, do the workers have to voultarily submit to finger printing? If u r are saying that the workers have to submit a police certificate of character what has the police done with the imformation it would have harvested? It tell me that there is no information management system for finger priniting as all of that inofrormation should have been stored in a data base and the information the police lifted from the scene should be run against its dta base to ascertain if there /is/are match(es).


  65. I still fail to understand the problem with seeking fingerprints. The police say that they have forensic evidence and ask for fingerprints from staff. In any other country that would not be a problem. And the alternative is to fingerprint those who are willing. And those who are not willing, wait for them to touch a drinks bottle or anything else and to lift the prints from that. You mean they are going to spend their lives wearing gloves? If any of them match, then police can seek a court order against that particular person for a formal fingerprint session, as they will be able to show the court sufficient evidence of why these prints ought to be the subject of a court order. So basically all they are doing is to ask that the staff and suppliers make their jobs easier and allow them to clear the staff – but one way or another they WILL get the prints. My suggestion given earlier, however, makes it possible to exercise some sort of control over the process and, for the innocent, ensure that they are protected and, for those who may appear (guilty, to ensure that they too are protected within the law.

    After all, forensic evidence is hardly proof of guilt. Let me put it this way. I don’t know if this is the case, but most hotel rooms have safes. Those safes are usually operated by combination locks, but are left open so that those moving into the rooms can set their own combinations. Presumably, a part of the servicing of a room before the arrival of any guests would be to ensure that the safe is empty and that the interior is wiped down – and this would inevitably cause fingerprints from the member of staff doing this to be on the inside of the safe. It is possible that the police forensic evidence shows fingerprints of a staff member. But that is NOT evidence of guilt and can easily be discounted by showing when and in what circumstances the prints may have been left. Therefore the staff as a whole retain counsel to protect them from the various activities of the police that have recently come to light in the international press. And if the prints match and that person has been one of those refusing to provide them, the evidence does appear a lot more damning.

    This is not nuclear physics of brain surgery, you know. We are a country whose finances are almost entirely supported by tourism…..and the tourists are staying away in DROVES thanks to the level of crime (I mean how low have we sunk when an advisory is issued to tourists not to wear gold in public?). Also, to the (true) press revelations about the practices of our police, not to mention the amazing (and true) revelations on the death and burial of our justice system. So, the Police are asking, politely, to assist them by providing some fingerprints. And people are getting hung up on trivia?

    So, Bushie, this is one of those very few (almost non-existant) occasions when I really do not understand where you are coming from.


  66. So tell us Amused, would you have a problem with hotel employees being subjected to monthly lie detector tests where we can simply “eliminate the innocent” by asking if they committed any crimes against tourist in the last month?

    If you don’t…..how about a random monthly lie detector test on citizens to eliminate the innocent among us and catch the crooks and druggies?

    How about one at work to identify who are stealing the stationary?

    How about one for Lawyers to eliminate the two honest ones in Barbados at present?

    ….you follow Bushie’s concern yet….? It is the road to a police state with people like Dottin in the drivers’ seats.


  67. @Bushie. Give me a break. You know perfectly well that a lie detector test is fatally flawed and can never be admitted as evidence. A lie detector test is unenforceable under ANY circumstances, because it is not sufficiently fool-proof and reliable. However, fingerprinting is something quite different AND YOU KNOW IT. And what we are discussing is fingerprinting.

    And yes, I too am concerned about having a prize moron like Dottin in charge of the police. I am also greatly concerned about having a person like Leacock as DPP. I am concerned about every aspect of the so-called administration of justice in Barbados. And it distresses me to have to recommend that employees of the resort have counsel for what in any other country would be a standard process. But, until Barbados puts in place FOI and protection of privacy legislation, while providing what is necessary to enable (or facilitate) bringing criminals to justice, the innocent will need to ensure that they are protected from those whose job it is to serve and protect the innocent.

    Bushie, of course I am concerned. So I have suggested a means by which the needs of all sides can be met and justice, hopefully, done. So, while I always respect your views and opinions, I respectfully suggest that there is a fine line between the protection of human and civil rights and obstruction that leads to the human and civil rights of others being eroded, compromised and breached.


  68. @ Amused
    “A lie detector test is unenforceable under ANY circumstances, because it is not sufficiently fool-proof and reliable.”
    ************
    Man Amused, ANY test that requires an “expert” to make determinations about whether prints match or lie detector test are passed or failed – are only as reliable as the ” experts”.

    It is an easy step from finger prints to eye scanners, lie detectors etc…

    When some cop expert says that ” these prints match”….THEY MATCH!
    What you going do? (We know your answer – Call Philip Pilgrim 🙂 )
    But when you have already confessed to the crime (remember the tourist rape suspect?) who will doubt that the prints indeed match?

    What do you not get about planting ground for monkey to run on…?

    With respect to Lie Detectors, are you saying that you are unaware of the use of these in Barbados already?


  69. @Amused
    I still fail to understand the problem with seeking fingerprints. The police say that they have forensic evidence and ask for fingerprints from staff. In any other country that would not be a problem.
    **********************
    Care to name any countries where citizens will willingly pony up to have their fingerprints taken on the Police say so? If any of these countries have a Gulag they don’t count.


  70. First it was the CoP surrendering to the crime spree as a result of the cash for gold and now we are hearing the AG expressing concern about the prison population.

    When will we hear about an ACTION PLAN.


  71. @ David | March 12, 2013 at 8:11 AM |

    Just imagine if we still had a Glendairy prison!
    Everything happens for a good reason.


  72. Does the fingerprinting include the owners and their guests? If not, why not. They too should be fingerprinted so they could be eliminated.


  73. @ David
    Years ago, Bushie used to complain about leadership in Barbados, but compared to what we have now, those were the good old days.
    The AG, COP and DPP in particular, seem to have charted out a new nadir in the concept of leadership that actually defies belief.

    Where did we find these clowns? Is it any wonder we can’t find young recruits for the disciplined forces? Would YOU want to work for any of these jokers if you had ANY options at all….including begging?

    Bushie can think of very few reasons why these idiots have not yet been sent packing…..and these reasons all relate to the weak kneed, IQ-challenged political liabilities that have saddled this country since the days of the Dipper and Tom Adams.

    We need a public call for these clowns to pack their bags and go away…and they should then disclose any ‘information’ to which they may be privy that may have induced their political bosses to have retained them so long past their expiriery dates…


  74. @Bushy. I am not interested in whether the lie detector is in use in Barbados or not. All I am interested in is if it can be admitted as evidence in a court of law. If it cannot, then why should I worry my head about it? Why would YOU worry your head over it?

    There are many major firms today who, before hiring personnel, have handwriting analyses and sometimes astrological charts done on the prospective employees. Some even go so far as to have a psychiatrist or psychologist sit in on the interviews and ask questions.

    Fingerprints are matched by a computer programme and that programme is the “expert” to which you allude. In matching the prints, the computer provides a percentage of proof – like 100% or just 50%. If it is 100% or above a certain percentage, then the evidence is deemed sound and the prosecution can rely on it, provided it can be linked to other necessary evidence. Otherwise, it is all too easy to have it disallowed. I can assure you that the computer programme used to match fingerprints was NOT formulated in Barbados nor can it be tampered with.

    As for Hal’s question, it makes sense to me and from what I know of criminal investigation that the guests who occupied the suite and any who the police believe might have visited the suite are fingerprinted for the purposes of elimination (or not as the case may be). I would hazard a guess that all those guests have already provided their fingerprints willingly. I would see no reason why the fact of the fingerprinting of the guests (who are paying to stay there) ought to be the concern of the staff (who depend on those guests for their jobs). This is the damned fool attitude that is swiftly killing of our tourism industry. No one is saying that we should roll over and play dead. BUT, there is a little thing known as “respect due” and if we are not going to give it to our tourists whose money pays the country’s bills, then said tourists will go elsewhere and pay someone else’s bills.

    Anyway, this discussion has now bored me totally. The employees will do what the hell they want. Their lives, their free-will, their choice. And inevitably it is they who will face both the positive and the negative of their decisions. Nothing to do with me.

    I leave this discussion with the image of Bushy in my mind, who is staying at a hotel in Florida and returns to his room to find that the $100,000 US that he had brought with him under the noses of the Central Bank watchdogs, has been stolen out of his safe. He calls the Florida police. The Florida police take the fingerprints of Bushy and whoever else is staying in Bushy’s room, along with the fingerprints of any guests that Bushy may have invited to his room to partake of his hospitality. The cops then notice that there are other fingerprints that do not match the ones they have taken. So, having the advantage of IAFIS, they lift the prints and run them through the IAFIS system, but there are no hits. They then are left with the option of saying to Bushy, “Sorry, old chum. Kiss goodbye to your money, because we are not going to upset the staff by asking for their prints.” And Bushy, bearing in mind his position on the Sugar Hill issue, completely agrees with the police, kisses his property a fond farewell and departs cheerfully, determined to speak highly and often of the hotel and the wonderful conduct of the police and, moreover, makes immediate bookings to return to said hotel. My goodness, what an image. Maybe Bushy will take Hal Austin with him next time.


  75. @ Islandgal
    …..What the !€#%~+!!!!!
    Amused pelting licks in your ‘no 1 suitor’ and you “thoroughly enjoyed” it! …… Wait till we get in the Bush……BT doubling up on the goatmilk….

    @ Amused
    If Bushie was foolish enough to leave $100,000 in a hotel safe in Miami, a more appropriate response from the responding cop should be to fall down the stairs in uncontrolled laughter…
    Listen Amused, why don’t we cut this short? All you would need to do is admit that Bushie is right (as if that was a question 🙂 ) and update your databank for future reference….

    Your suggestion about what would ‘hold up in court’ is about as laughable as Bushie’s $100,000
    Skippa, court decisions mean 6 to 10 years after the fact, (often with the accused in REMAND if he is a poorboy or even a rich bushman without Lodge Brothers) ….you could be serious?

    1 point to Bushie

    Secondly, what an employer does BEFORE hiring an employee is TOTALLY his business…..he could draw lots for all it matters.

    HOWEVER…..after the employment CONTRACT, it becomes a different matter altogether……You know that!
    …this is why it makes sense (from your businesslike reasoning) to collect such information UP FRONT in the employment relationship.

    2 points to the bushman

    Why do you not care if the lie detection equipment is being used in Barbados?
    Do you care how many poor Bajans have been put out of their jobs because of alleged failed tests?
    …about how many promotions have been jerrymandered based on such questionable test results? So unless the victims can afford $20,000 to go to court this is of no concern to you?

    3 points to Bushie

    Your initial response is well meaning, but flawed in that it fails to address larger concerns than the alleged theft of some tourist’s jewelry…..

    BTW
    …..why would a British / Canadian tourist, coming to a holiday/ hotel / beach/ strange place bring expensive jewelry with them….?
    Any sensible answers to that question anyone?

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