@J
I am not contesting statistics, though for clarity it would help to know the source(s) you are citing.

Nor am I going into arguments about how easy/hard it may be to solve crimes in different places–small/big places, existence of organized crime, etc.

As BU’s own pages showed (as spurred by the Long Beach mugging/murder), many crimes go/have gone unreported, and presumably remain unsolved, casting doubt on that spectacular 98% rate.

Congratulations to all those who help to solve the crimes.

livinginbarbados

The sources are Jamaica’s daily newspapers. You should read them sometime.

I know I do.

Carson C.
As a matter of fact, it does take a lot to impress Bonny so now you know that you could never fit that bill. Get my pointa? Sad Sack. Now go and suck a addle egg.

JC,
My humblest apologies dawlin. Not my fault dat he’s so ‘sweetttttttt’.(smooch)Hard to resist such an intel’gent beau.

@Tell me Why

I think you misunderstand the issues completely.

Actually my interest was not primarily on tourism at all, even though I mentioned that more tourists visit Jamaica (especially the North Coast) annually than come to Barbados, despite their crime and violence. This is a fact. Even as we speak thousands of young American College students have gone to Negril and contiguous areas on the Jamaica North Coast for what they call Spring Break.

Carson’s bovine excrement about murders in Jamaica is expressed as a number of murders rather than as a murder rate, or a number in relation to population.

Currently little St Kitts has a high murder rate, as the number of murders committed there already this year is extremely high for its relatively sparse population.

There are more murders in Central Florida , where I live each week than they are in Barbados for a year. But more tourists flock to this area than many parts of the country or the world to visit the Disney and other theme parks. They come in droves from all over the world to Orlando. But statistics or epidemiology is not my forte, nor the focus of my submission.

My argument was not centered around murders, but in stressing that the Jamaican police could not be blamed for not declaring or discovering that Bob Wolmer was murdered, when they could not have possibly done so, since he died from complications of diabetes.

I entered this thread for that purpose and I think that I made that point abundantly clear to all who can read, and are not biased.

In addition, my contribution sought mainly to make Bajans aware that the complication of DKA (undoubtedly the cause of Wolmer’s death) causes much morbidity and mortality to BAJAN diabetics, and may often be nipped in the bud if we realize that stress, infection, heart attacks etc might bring on this awful scenario.

Carson being the ignoramus that he is, cannot see how BONNY PEPPA can be impressed by my submission on being cognizant of the dangers of DKA, or my submission on the forensic parameters that were clearly absent from the investigation in Mr Wolmer’s death.

His abysmal ignorance prevents him from appreciating that there was indeed “much” in my presentation to impress anyone with a basic understanding of the English language.

It seems that once you disagree with someone on BU, or evidence your experience or training, you are automatically attacked and become persona non grata.

How then can we learn? What is BU about? Just another rag for airing muck about who “biting” who, and who living with who?

Is BU not to be a source of enlightenment and education, but merely another avenue for cheap entertainment, or the regurgitation of news from the international press?

I lived in Jamaica for almost three years between October 74 and June 77.

I witnessed crime in Jamaica in a way that Carson and many of you could have. I participated in surgeries where folk were cut up and bruised and battered.

I spent hours in A&E at the University Hospital of the West Indies suturing up long lacerations.

I had the opportunity to look through my back room window one night, and witness thieves empty the neighbours house of its contents, and with no phone to call the police.

My wife and I were held up at gun point coming from church the Sunday night before Christmas 76, but fortunately were let go without injury.

Yes I have seen Jamaican crime close up, and know that it exists.

For those who think that I am unpatriotic, I am sorry but I have to confess that I have been with our police to certify deaths of many of our people involved in the most brutal murders.

After all, the Scriptures declare that the heart (of men) is deceitful, and desperately wicked. This refers to men EVERYWHERE.

Oh and as for Jamaican tourism, I can understand why many will visit Jamaica. There is much more of it to see, and there is much more diversity and interesting things there to see, than there is in Barbados.

I hate to burst some people’s bubble but that is true.

I am deemed unpatriotic, but didnt I return home to finish my studies and work, even though I did not have to serve a bond? Many islanders, including Bajans , who went to Jamaica to study, spent (or are spending) the rest of thier lives there.

His abysmal ignorance prevents him from appreciating that there was indeed “much” in my presentation to impress anyone with a basic understanding of the English language.

Is BU not to be a source of enlightenment and education, but merely another avenue for cheap entertainment, or the regurgitation of news from the international press?
————————————————
Maybe Carson decided that he did not want to learn about DKA while discussing violence against tourist. Maybe he really doesn’t care about your abilities with the English language. But Carson at any rate it seems that GP is pouting at your unwillingness to accord him and his contribution some value above and beyound what you currently do. Can you find it in your heart to help him out? lol!

One of the major points I stressed in my submission on the Wolmer affair that was missed, was our wont not to respect the work of UWI graduates.

I have been criticized for highlighting the work of my former Cave Hill classmate FH Coates for his stirling Chemical analysis in that case.

Whereas the Chemistry illiterate and white and expatriate Dept Commissioner of Police in Jamaica did not trust the work of the Jamaica Forensics Lab with its UWI graduates, Scotland Yard came and vindicated its work.

His own people came and agreed with the work of our West Indian scientists.

I want to now highlight on BU the work of a colleague, and another UWI graduate, Dr Ermine Belle who ably assisted the local police in solving the murder at Long Bay on the Canadian visitor.

http://www.nationnews.com/story/Long-beach-arrest-made-FRONT-PAGE-LEAD

Carson C
Get back to the subject of discussion and ‘leff ma nah’. “Sus Chrois.
I’m glad to be one of GP’s disciples. Couldn’t want for a better leader. You jellus?
You buy you kite fa Easter yet? Me tu.

ya all crazy lol I still luv the blogs madness and all ha ha lol!

A man has been detained in custody in connection with the the death. He has not yet been formally charged.

According to Georgie Porgie:

“Whereas the Chemistry illiterate and white and expatriate Dept Commissioner of Police in Jamaica did not trust the work of the Jamaica Forensics Lab with its UWI graduates, Scotland Yard came and vindicated its work.”

Misleading Mr Porgie.

From Wikipedia :

“On 18 March 2007, Woolmer was found dead in his hotel room at the Jamaica Pegasus Hotel in Kingston, Jamaica. The initial report was that Woolmer had died of a heart attack. On 22 March, Jamaican police confirmed that a murder investigation had been launched due to the circumstances of Woolmer’s death, based on a report by pathologist Dr. Ere Seshaiah that Woolmer had died of asphyxia via manual strangulation. ”
——————————————

So in fact the Police did trust the work of the forensics lab of which the pathologists report turned out to be in error.

So your attempt to paint the “white” deputy commissioner as mistrusting the lab is just plain false (with racist innuendo)

Do you have any evidence that anyone doubted the toxicology report by Coates? Or did you just make that up?

J
You dont have to big up UWI graduates, but we need to give Jack his due. I objected to what I thought were harsh remarks about the Jamaican police, because they could not be blamed in THIS CASE FOR A FAILURE THAT DID NOT REALLY OCCUR.

Whereas Coates is not a policeman as Adrian Hinds correctly stated, he represented the Jamaican police because thier investigation depended on his chemical analysis.

My argument revolves around the general feeling that because the international press or so called experts from outside the region says something that they are necessarily correct. It just is not so.

Let me cite a recent example.

I have been following reports in the British press about the recent test match series that England lost. The ex English captains were adamant that the wickets were deliberately prepared flat, to limit thier so called pace attack.

Michael Holding pointed out that the wickets were all typical slow West Indian wickets, but that there were no genuine fast bowlers on show who could bowl on them.

Who do you believe? The folk from without the region or our own fast bowling hero?

All posts by West Indians that expressed the view that the West Indies fast bowlers of the 80’s would have destroyed the current English batsmen were erased!

Here is another illiterate who thinks he can debunk my opinion by reference to a silly Wikipedia report. You are very amusing!

Re The initial report was that Woolmer had died of a heart attack.

I always and still believe this for the reasons I explained very clearly yesterday. Scotland Yard eventually came back to such a decision.

Re Jamaican police confirmed that a murder investigation had been launched due to the circumstances of Woolmer’s death, based on a report by pathologist Dr. Ere Seshaiah that Woolmer had died of asphyxia via manual strangulation.

Scotland yard later determined that the report by Dr. Ere Seshaiah that Woolmer had died of asphyxia via manual strangulation was untrue, as there was no Anatomical evidence to support a diagnosis of death by manual strangulation, when a further autopsy was done by more competent pathologists elsewhere.

Note that when I spoke of the work of the Jamaica Forensics Lab with UWI graduates, I spoke of the Chemical analysis of FH Coates specifically. If you know anything about regional forensics you will know that it is not as you see on CSI.

Please note the name of the Anatomical Pathologist!
We also had in Barbados a certain so called forensic pathologist with a Dip Path from you know where, who caused much mayhem in our courts for failure to give competent testimony for the Crown. We have since corrected that! Enough said about that before you call me racist again.

I said that white and expatriate Dept Commissioner of Police in Jamaica was/is a “the Chemistry illiterate, and I stand by that. Can you refute this and indicate where he did his studies in Chemistry, Sir!

The white expatriate deputy commissioner was reported in the international press at the time, as noted in the source cited by Arian Hinds that he had no confidence in the work of the local forensics lab- referring to the Chemical Analysis.

When you state that “So in fact the Police did trust the work of the forensics lab of which the pathologists report turned out to be in error” you seem to misunderstand that there was Anatomical, Chemical, And Toxicology to be considered..

There is no intended racist innuendo, but a deliberate attempt to point out that many so called white experts from abroad often seek to come and deride the work of our competent workers, and are later PROVED TO BE WRONG!.

I read Cricinfo every morning, and did so during the world cup. If you read Cricinfo at that time, the blogs on that site were carrying press reports by journalists from all over the world who had converged on Jamaica for the event.

Where was Wikipedia then.

Re Shields in fact continued to believe Woolmer murdered by strangulation based on the pathology report.

But when the autopsy was repeated by competent Pathologists elsewhere , it was found that there was NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT SUCH A CONCLUSION.
Did Wikipedia tell you too that the autopsy was repeated?

As you now point out, Shields eventually accepted that death was by natural causes as I opined all along, and as I believed from the beginning, and explained the Pathophysiology with great clarity yesterday.

Re Shields defended his initial murder investigation. What else could he do? He had egg all over his face, and pressure from the international press. The original findings of death by natural causes was indeed ALWAYS correct.

Re So far from the “white” Shields ignoring his black forensic staff, we have quite the opposite.

Note that Dr. Ere Seshaiah is not black or local. But the Chemical analyst is!
Note also that with death by manual strangulation there would have been Chemical evidence which the Anatomical Pathologist would not have.

You are out of your league Amused. You don’t know your Pathology or Forensics to debunk me Sir!

Your vain and futile attempt to embarrass me and prove me a liar is an example of just why I intervened when I saw the original posts by Carlos. We do not think that our own can possibly know what we are saying.

I read all the nonsense you are quoting two years ago man.

Actually Amused is really Carlos who just wont give up and realize that GP has a little idea about what he is saying.

You think someone is arguing with you over the cause of his death?

Or you just so egotistical you just to see like your own writing?

You got it totally wrong !

Shields launched his murder investigation based on the INCORRECT INITIAL pathology report.

He listened to his forensic staff rather than ignored them as you insinuated replete with racist innuendo.

Porgie writes:

“when a further autopsy was done by more competent pathologists elsewhere.”

Later in the very same post:

“We do not think that our own can possibly know what we are saying.”

It seems the only suffering this inferiority complex is YOU!

Maybe that is why you are obsessed with “white experts”

I never mentioned anything about a toxicology report by FHC. I always refered to him as a Chemist, and deliberately so, for a reason.

Nor did I say that Shields claimed that Wolmer was poisoned- and I write perfect English with my unbounded ego!

Since I have written straw men and red herrings give me the forensic evidence to debunk my view point.

I have at least defended my position from my knowledge and experience in Medicine, Chemistry, Pharmacology & Forensics.

Can you employ these disciplines to suppport your view? I think not.

To summarize
The facts remain that
1- The initial report was that Woolmer had died of a heart attack. CORRECT

2- The final report was that Woolmer died from natural causes. CORRECT

3- Scotland Yard eventually agreed that death was by natural causes. CORRECT

4- The expatriate Dept Commissioner of Police in Jamaica eventually came to the same decision, when a proper post mortem was done by competent pathologists who found no anatomical evidence to support death by strangulation..CORRECT

5- The Scotland Yard experts obviously agreed that the Chemical analysis done by local Chemists did not support death by strangulation either. Bet you didn’t know that there would be Chemical findings if death was due to death by strangulation. Did you?

The original findings of death by natural causes was indeed ALWAYS correct. CORRECT

6- I said that the white and expatriate Dept Commissioner of Police in Jamaica was/is a Chemistry illiterate, and I stand by that. CAN YOU PROVE OTHERWISE?

7- I said that the white expatriate deputy commissioner was reported in the international press at the time, as having no confidence in the work of the local forensics lab- referring to the Chemical Analysis- which would have indicated that there were no blood indices to support a diagnosis of death by strangulation by the errant Anatomical Pathologist. I stand by that

8- I implied that the white expatriate deputy commissioner ignored the Chemical analysis of the black local Chemist, but under duress from the international press and a poor pathology report from the non-black Anatomical Pathologist he launched a senseless investigation to cover his tail.

Quae cum ita sint, (that being the case) the Jamaican police nevertheless handled the case well, despite the hype from the international pressmen, who are neither police or pathologists or forensics experts…..Niether are YOU!

Porgie writes:

“Since I have written straw men and red herrings give me the forensic evidence to debunk my view point.”

You really need to get over yourself. there is no dispute (at least from me) on how he died.

Points 1-6

Statements, again, that are not in dispute. You list them because you are in love with yourself or you are just trying to be obtuse? what is your problem?

Point 7

STRAW MAN

Show us the evidence that Shields did not trust his forensic staff? Quite the contrary, he acted on the report

Point 8 – where is the evidence that Coates was doubted by Shields? You make the claim but no evidence.

Far from the “international press” hyping it up, it was the gleaner who claimed he was poisoned. Shields at no time disputed the findings of the chemist and said otherwise.

You set a massive straw man, claiming coates was “doubted” by shields and shields had “no confidence” in his forensic staff.

Totally false.

No matter how many times you write in here praising your own skills in forensics to tell us over and over again a fact that no one disputes (he died of natural causes) you cant get away with that other blatantly false, misleading racially charged claim.

You are just too pompous to admit it.

I feel sorry for your students.

A little more digging and it seems your man coates was actually helpful to Seshaiah after all !

Here are a few excerpts from a very comprehensive article on cricinfo

http://content.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/374070.html

————————

By the Tuesday after the Sunday when Woolmer suffered the most lonely of deaths, a post-mortem had proved inconclusive, and Jamaican police announced that his death was being treated as suspicious. By the Thursday, March 22, a Jamaican journalist by the name of Rohan Powell sensationally claimed on television that Woolmer had been strangled. That very day police launched a murder investigation. “The pathologist’s report states that Mr Woolmer’s death was due to asphyxiation as a result of manual strangulation,” said Karl Angell, a police spokesman. “In these circumstances the matter is now being treated by the police as murder.”

….

While Shields remained convinced, for now, that Woolmer was killed by “manual strangulation”, allegations surfaced in the Jamaican media early in April claiming the toxicology report stated that samples taken from Woolmer’s blood, stomach and urine had shown the presence of a foreign substance. An unnamed government source said this was poison.

….

By May 20 police were privately admitting that their pathologist was wrong.

….

On June 12 the Jamaica Constabulary Force “confirmed” that Woolmer had died of natural causes. Three independent pathologists, they said, had come to this conclusion. Lucius Thomas, the police commissioner, added that in further toxicology tests “no substance was found to indicate that he was poisoned”.

….

Seshaiah became an isolated figure, his work severely criticised by three international pathologists.

….

In the witness stand Seshaiah changed his verdict to “asphyxia secondary to manual strangulation in association with cypermethrin poisoning”. Then he went on to admit that he did not know how much cypermethrin – an insecticide – was in Woolmer’s system. Another expert, Fitzmore Coates, a senior forensic officer of the Jamaican government-run laboratory, claimed the amount of it in a sample of Woolmer’s stomach contents was “significant”. Yet the 3.402mg/ml he found was about a third of what is recognised as the maximum safe daily intake of 10mg/ml.

….

The jury also heard John Slaughter of the Forensic Science Service in London testify that he found no cypermethrin in a blood sample taken from Woolmer. And they heard Professor Tara Dasgupta of the University of West Indies Pesticide Research Unit, who conducted an independent test, confirm that there were no traces of any poison in his findings.

….

—————————–

So in fact Porgie you blundered big time and got it completely wrong !

I suspect Georgie Porgie and “Amused” are actually the same individual.

@ Amused,

Georgie Porgie has the god complex of doctors but the devil is in the details. You took him to the cleaners . Take a bow!

Adrian Hinds

You are certainly very perceptive!

To quote you

How dare GP make mention of Mark Sheild’s whiteness. lol!, maybe the remark just presented an opening to attack GP, for being a God Man.

And

BTW how did this white Britsh playboy with bad teeth become Jamaica’s Deputy COP?

It is very clear that Amused motive is solely to try to discredit GP, by any means he can. It is not the first time he has tried to do this, on this blog.

Amused first intervened with an article from Wikipedia which GP summarily debunked. It is clear that whereas GP was able to bring scientific information to bear on the issue, Amused could only push his deceptive strawmen and red herrings argument, but in the final analysis Amused concluded the same as GP did when he intervened. That is that the Jamaican Police Force did not handle the Wolmer affair improperly. This was the basis of GP’s argument. And all the evidence that Amused has brought reveals thatthe Jamaican Police Force did not handle the Wolmer affair improperly.

Amused agrees with GP that Wolmer died by natural causes as the Jamaican Police Force concluded from the very beginning. In other words, the Jamaican Police Force were indeed correct from the beginning. But under pressure from the outside press or the Gleaner or who ever, “the white British playboy with bad teeth,” as you called him sought to conduct an investigation to cover his ass. …….which by itself again indicated that the Jamaican Police Force did not handle the Wolmer affair improperly.

Amused was at pains to brand GP as a racist, even though he must most surely know that it is quite the norm that in this region local black folk have often been overlooked for promotion by white expatriates, who are often less qualified.

In one of his posts, GP pointed out that the white expatriate Professor at Cave Hill sought to deny local and regional blacks their right to transfer to Mona to study Medicine. He also pointed out that the same white Professor facilitated the appointment of his white expatriate colleague from Bristol at the expense of the black lecturer who had started and run the same department for years and who ought to have been rewarded for influencing the development of several regional black students.

Adrian Hinds, your question above is deserving of an answer

BTW how did this white British playboy with bad teeth become Jamaica’s Deputy COP?

In his haste to discredit GP Amused dug up all kind of articles which showed only that his motive was to discredit GP. But…….GP has sucesfully pointed out (and Amused research and articles indicates) that the Jamaican Police were indeed correct in their initial judgement, that racism is widespread in keeping down or ignoring black expertise in the region, and in the process he informed the BU family to be weary of the dangerous complication of diabetes called DKA.

What did Amused bring to the table, except a fervent desire to discredit GP?

@cynic

LOL

CCC

Do you understand what you wrote?
——————————————–
No amount of revisionist history on his part will convince sensible people that Jamaica police force did not get it horribly wrong in the beginning with regards to Bob Woolmer.
———————————————–

Do you understand the meaning of the phrase ” in the beginning”?

It is obvious that you have a problem with Jamaica and Jamaicans.

Have you ever been to Jamaica?

GP is entitled to be pompous, man. HE RIGHT & HE BRIGHT! He has said all along, and all the reports cited in Amused arguments indicate that the Jamaican police had the right answer first up. They had the right answer “in the beginning.” That is deah from natural causes. They started there, and when they did thier investigations to cover thier asses, they ended right back there. Read the reports cited by Amused again.

GP has achieved what you can never hope to, so all you can do is seek to pull him down. Typical crab in the barrel Bajan mentality.

Because he disagreed with you, you now want to mock his right to believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ.

You are in a sad sorry state sir.

cynic

I lived in Jamaica for a while.