Submitted by Hollis ‘’Chalkdust’’ Liverpool
Tuesday after the election, my good friend, David Boothman, sent me an interesting video-clip about how ‘’True-Democrats’’ in a democracy should behave after an election. The clip testified that in ‘’Greece the founder of democracy,’’ people were expected to behave in a manner that showed respect for their elected representatives. The clip from Boothman was very apt, given the fact that many persons in Trinidad and Tobago seemed, by their many letters to the Press, to be angry with our leaders’ behavioural actions and sayings, reactions that demonstrated their loss or their winning of the national elections on August 10th. The clip, however, made me think anew about Greece and its democratic postulations.
Democracy is generally associated with the Greeks and Romans in earlier times and with Europeans in the Medieval Period. Truly, Greeks in the Golden Age (500-300 BCE) had many city-states: some aristocratic, some ruled by monarchs, and others by tyrants. Despite their differences, Athenians in Greece were able to fashion out of the different, interrelated entities a democratic order, whereby the authoritative power of the state was vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly, through a system of representation that involved elections periodically. History shows that under Cleisthenes in Athens around 508 BCE, the government was reformed and placed on a democratic footing with a Council and a Jury and these institutions were further fortified by the works of Pericles (461-429 BCE), Socrates (469-399) and his pupil Plato, as well as the outstanding philosopher of the era, Aristotle (384-322 BCE).
What all students and academics should know, however, is that Greece developed its institutions long after the civilisations of Africa, in particular, Ethiopia and Egypt, and the Near East, including the Sumerians in Mesopotamia between the rivers Tigris and Euphrates. Moreover, India with its early republics such as the Sanghas of Buddha and the Ganas (attendants of Shiva) practised democracy as early as the 6th century BCE. Some historians even consider the Buddhist Sangha as the world’s oldest democracy. In fact, Diodorus, the Greek historian, two hundred years after Alexander the so-called Great invaded India, wrote that India possessed systems of democracy in like manner to Greece, then. Accordingly, when I heard Boothman’s video clip, I told myself that Africans and Indians in Trinidad and Tobago should indeed be politically proud of their management process of holding elections here, since their forefathers were practitioners of democracy long before Europeans wrote history.
History shows that the Greeks in Athens, based on the philosophy and legal codes of the Egyptians, developed a ‘’three-way Athenian Democratic Code’’ by which they were able to assess and describe the behaviour of all eligible electors within the state of Athens and even within the city-state of Sparta in Greece.
In terms of the ‘’three-way’’ grouping, first, there were those persons who, like many in Trinidad and Tobago, refused to vote for representatives to the Council in Athens (The National Assembly); Greek society called them ‘’Idiots.’’ An idiot was thus a private person who kept to himself/herself and refused to be part of the Government. As time progressed, based on the Latin word ‘’Idiota,’’ Europeans placed a derogatory twist to the word and caused it to mean an ‘’uneducated or ignorant’’ person.
The second group of persons in the Athenian Code consisted of those who, like many in Trinidad and Tobago, selected their representatives narrowly, on the basis of their tribe. Such persons in Athens cared not for what was being discussed in the Council nor the thought-provoking musings in the marketplace and were thus termed ‘’Tribesmen.’’ Athens was filled with them at the time. One could easily espy, then, Spartans, Persians, Corinthians, Macedonians, Helots, Minoans, and Phoenicians not only by their dress but by their colour of face. For elections to the Council, tribesmen voted for their own.
The third group in the Code was referred to as ‘’Citizens.’’ Citizens were educated persons who debated issues; who voted for representatives based on their knowledge of philosophy; who studied and practised agriculture; who respected God and family life; and who, in the long run, put Athens first in everything that they did. Of course, citizens were considered by the Council to be the most principled and highest echelons of the state, and all persons in the society, with encouragement from the state, aimed to join that educated group.
But Athens also had a secret fourth group in its Code. These were persons who the government felt were worse than the idiots, in that they undermined the society by trying to destroy its institutions. The leaders of Athens therefore ‘’ostracized’’ them. To be ‘’ostracized,’’ according to the Greeks, was to be banned from society. Indeed, Themistocles, who, it was said, tried to disrupt the smooth flow of the Council in Athens was ‘’ostracized;’’ he was imprisoned for a period of five to ten years. What was his crime? He was found guilty of giving money to people in Athens for reasons not approved by the Council.
Thus, in Athens, there were three groups of persons and a secret one that few historians speak about: the ostracized. On the contrary, how well do I remember my friends in Barbados, historian Trevor Marshall and public servant Vincent ‘’Buff’’ Burnett, telling me that Barbados has a name for the ostracized persons. ‘’In Barbados,’’ according to Trevor and Buff, ‘’we name and ostracize them openly for their ignorance, lack of education, racism, fraud, greed, their undercover moves to undermine the society, and their idolising of money. In Barbados, we call them Half o’ Idiots.’’ Indeed, ‘’go long you half o’ idiot’’ is a favourite, demeaning curseword of Barbadians.
Trinidadians and Tobagonians, therefore, have a splendid, historical template whereby we the people can study the pitfalls and challenges of a society that aims to bring into focus the democracy of our ancestors. When, then, Henry Ford said: ‘’History is more or less bunk,’’ indeed, he can certainly be classified as a ‘’Half o’ idiot.’’
A stinging indictment on our ignorance as a people operating in a so-called democracy.
I don’t much, but I know that “Half o’ idiot” ain’t got neffin to do wid dem things dat you seh Trevor tell you.
People dat have dem traits and guilty of doze deeds duz get elect to office every five years in Barbados.
We doan call them “Half of idiots”, me duz call dem politicians and den when dum done wid politricks, we duz call dem Sir.
Trevor Eastmond ain’t seh dat!
We have s probably in Barbados and the Caribbean the quality of citizens presenting themselves for political office. In is systematic.
We ain’t really want nuh big lotta quality people running for political office. One or two yes, but nuh big lot. Reason being, sponsors gine feel a kinda way when making contributions to the cause and people turning up their noses and saying dem got principles and integrity. Yuh just caan win an election with too many of them sorta people round yuh.
To besides, people duz doan be thinking bout democracy when dem marking duh “X” in dat polling booth? No sir, Democracy doan pay nuh light bills nor put back on nuh phone. Um doan pay rent nor um caan spend at Popular. Dem duz be thinking bout how duh gine get de picture tek so dat duh cud collect the little donation, cause times duz be too hard and people duz got tuh eat.
Wunna alright yuh.
Democracy ain’t got in neffin fuh poor people.
I am wondering what is the need for the big lotta campaign finance. I think it has to do with unnecessary glitz and glamour. Political mass meetings to me are often just a below the belt slug fest or comedy fest. I prefer small community interactions where one actually engages the public. No need for a big stage, lights, sound system transportation. Down-to-earth, intimate serious sessions with contributions from the constituents.
No need for expensive advertisements. Social media works.
Is anybody really persuaded by slogans and teeshirts and music and truckloads of people skinnin’ dey teet, hugging and kissing a candidate and declaring them to be the greatest thing since sliced bread?
These tactics just serve to portray the eventual winners as entitled superstars and rulers instead of humble servants of the people whose power derives from and may be withdrawn by them.
We the people need to rethink our love affair with annointing these people as kings and queens.
Kings and queens are not known for their benevolence.
Time to switch off the auto-response!
As de bell ring wuhnuh like Pavlov’s dogs. An’ after one plate o’ corned beef an’ biscuits, nuh food doan even be comin’.
@Donna
If you read what Chaulkdust has written here you will understand why. There is a segment of the citizenry (in the majority?) who are ignorant (idiots). An easy target to be manipulated by those in power and aspiring to it.
Correction – slog fest
@ David BU at 7 :30 AM
You do have a high level of contempt for the ordinary citizen do you not? Since when is Chalk Dust a reference point for the Barbados Electorate? He is writing about the T& T experience. I can assure the Bajan experience is different. We know “a half o’ idiot” when we see one. We know the ” whole idiots” too. We do not vote for them at all, at all.
@Vincent
There are similarities. We have a vast majority of the electorate who vote for frivolous reasons. For example, he is my friend. I went to school with him. He does help me pay a bill.
@ David BU
What percentage of the Electorate make up the two categories you have cited? Because they reached the media does not signify that they are the majority. Even Facebook friends seldom amount to 100. These folks are not statistically significant. 90% of them do not go to the polling station.
@Vincent
Several polls have been done in a Barbados context that can be extended to other islands to show there is hardcore support for main parties.
#blindloyalty
David,
I did read it. I am saying we need to educate the people or this “Democracy” thing will never work.
Even our language needs to change. Here we are talking about politicians “in power”. They are not supposed to be in power. They are merely wielding the power on the people’s behalf. Our mindset is one which promotes a ruler:subject relationship. They are supposed to be in service to the people.
Maybe the power to recall would serve to change that mindset.
But we the people love pomp and pageantry. With pomp and pageantry comes the elevation of our political servants to masters.
Nonsense titles demand homage and flamboyant ceremonies demand big rides etc.
Imagine, here we are automatically obliged to call people “The
Honourable” so and so and “The Right Honourable” so and so when quite often just so and so is more
appropriate.
I have no problem paying a salary commensurate with the job but I have no time for the other trappings of the office.
Remember that in the USA the president was not supposed to be anything more than an executive. The real power was supposed to be wielded by the people’s representatives in Congress. The desire for pomp and pageantry has now elevated the distant president above the representatives that live among their people and have to face them on a regular basis.
It’s a long time since I lost interest in pomp and pageantry. It is a long time since I elevated anyone above any other human being. It’s a long time since I stood in awe of any human being because of silly titles.
Not since childhood. People just need to grow up!
“He cautioned that Government should be “careful not to let the Nelson Statue cause another REVOLUTION in Barbados, this time against a Black-led government …” (so-called activist Denny)
Of course Nelson has to go to the museum. As soon as possible. However, this activist’s threat verges on violence and treason. It is time for our Honourable Attorney General, Lord Marshal Dale to instruct his DPP to start an investigation into Mr Denny and to aim a long prison sentence.
No one in Barbados has the right to call for the overthrow of democratically elected representatives and our government. We have elections, we have the constitution. Mr Denny has no democratic mandate whatsoever.
@ David Bu at 10 :23 AM
What is wrong with “hardcore” supporters of parties.? Are they inimical to Democracy ? And in what ways? I would say that they are essential to our Democratic form of governance. Democracy is NOT Licentiousness.
@Donna
Could not agree with you more.
@Vincent
Hardcore suggest blind support read not based on rational analysis.
@David, I thought the author make references for the electorate in every village, town and country with his historical deep dive.. but as we are often reminded here and again by @VC … we Bajans are a UNIQUE lot in most human endeavors 👍🏿😎 .
But on your point re: “There is a segment of the citizenry (in the majority?) who are ignorant (idiots). An easy target to be manipulated by those in power and aspiring to it” … I would agree with VC that u show deep contempt 🙃!
So taking u at your suggestion I reread the piece and understood it to mean just the opposite … or at least a definitive contrarian perspective.
… Based on the way that politicians debase and prostrate themselves to win votes often offering their legislative power to those who offer the highest donations it is quite reasonable to understand Chalkdust’s Egyptian-Greek themed first coded “idiots” as the most practical voters (non-voters) … ‘Why get involved with a corrupt system that is already rigged against you’, is their refrain!
The reality check is that many of those who refuse to vote are often vociferous agitators in other ways.
It’s a dichotomy of course and one that has no ‘rational’ resolution…
… If u remain outside the vote then how can you complain about your level of representation, but if u practice “tribalism” or become the philosophical thinking, educated “citizen” and convince yourself that your vote is truly based on your representative’s knowledge and moral standards then you essentially have subsumed yourself to the rigged process!
Bah humbug, one may say… but we have to do what we have to do!
@ David BU
Your definition of hardcore is peculiar. Moreover , It cannot be revealed by a survey as you suggested. I think this also renders your notion of” rational analysis” suspect. A cursory survey of the hardcore party supporters would attest to supporters rationally deciding to be supporters of the party i.e a common political philosophy.
@Dee Word
The dysfunctional system of a democracy inherited from the Greeks? we practice serve the political class more that the people. This is a fact. Do voters make a difference if the political class are able to manipulate the system?
Around and around we go…
@ David BU
The Democratic system which we practise has evolved considerably from the original Greek system. The definition of the ‘people” is completely different. If there is a dysfunction it is of our own making. Frankly, I do not think it is dysfunctional . We do have some persons, known to the public ,who are trying wittingly and unwittingly to undermine our democracy for private gain. They will succeed only if we ,the people, allow them.
We the people are dysfunctional. If we would get our act together so would the politicians to a reasonable extent. Due to human nature there will always be a tug of war. We the people need to understand that we must be in it for the long haul. We have to keep on tugging.
That’s just the way it is.
We the people must keep them honest.
”You get a government you deserve.”
@ Donna
The truth is that Elections are now a mere extension of Crop Over without the costumes.
@ David Bu
Please accommodate dpD . Lol!!
Now back. Thanks in advance @Mr. Blogmaster… @David, you have covered politics from many years so I readily accept your remark “Around and around we go…” as more reality check than cynicism…. By that same measure I disagree with the bloggers who suggest so interestingly that any dysfunction is on us … because I ask who ‘are the US… if not the same people who create and perpetuate the endless agony we endure of political life!
@VC, I am discombobulated by your view that the democracy we practice today has evolved so considerably from that referenced above… by what measures is there that considerable evolution?… We can identify the coded four categories by whatever names we desire and conjure all the jargon of modern political discourse to fit but at the core the essay speaks bluntly to what we have today as our electoral masses across all countries.
At the base level one unsavory evolving trend is distressed voter participation … the so called ‘idiot class’ is expanding as the average voter turnout/participation is now around 65%-70% from those nascent joyful days of simply getting the right to vote when some leading democracies had high 80% and higher participation in the electoral process.
Who are the ‘US’ making the dysfunction???… Is it not now and has it not always been within our grasp to make our governance functional?…
… Didn’t the Soviets, as an example, modify their governance to supposedly suit their needs when they over-threw the Czars… To what have they evolved if not a new form of Czar autocracy with a President in power for over 20 years and recently given a referendum mandate to lead basically for life! Well, that’s not a DEMOCRACY you say… true… but the point is made that your dysfunction is my political utopia: we resolve to evolve as we see fit; it’s within our grasp to elect more ‘citizens’, tribesmen who mirror our disparate views or surely a few ‘idiots’ as well!
Democracy is exactly what we have made it… whether Westminster first-past-the-post or US electoral college proportional style, it fits the need… otherwise we WOULD have changed it!
So back to you @David, of course the voters make a difference … the 63 million in the US, the Brexit-leave 17 million or the over 150,000 that voted for the BLP last election … the question of course is how do we control that “licentiousness” that many of our elected members practice so boldly…how do we manage the many puny Putins….or more realistically how do we manage our OWN self-interested desires to break the rules and it’s reflection in our elected representatives!
BTW, @Donna the US make not have wanted a King in that strict sense but they absolutely wanted to bestow to their ‘Executive’ the power associated with a high office befitting such stature; they gave him, NOT congress the ability to engage with foreign powers and of course he is commander-in-chief of the armed forces plus many other ‘supreme power’ type abilities. That he was ‘checked’ by a veto-proof vote from Congress is dismissed by the rampant tribalism evident then as now!
“I am wondering what is the need for the big lotta campaign finance.”
bribery and corruption, you took my money which you helped me steal from the treasury and pension fund (the people) anyway, so when you get elected by the people, you owe me..
.. all of them should be in prison, both the bribers and the corrupt ministers/politicians.
“Our mindset is one which promotes a ruler:subject relationship.”
slave society, even the labor laws still carry a component of master and worker….not employer/employee, i was shocked to see it right here on BU and apparently i was the only one bothered by that clear modern day slavery connotation.
Useful contribution from Chalkdust.
What I find particularly interesting about this discussion is the fact that the Eurocentric myth makers like to spread the big lie that democratic governance began in ancient Greece, which was a society in which the majority of the population were slaves. I guess it reflects their so-called ‘representative democracy’.
I don’t know much about forms of democratic governance in ancient India but I intend to research it. However, I’m very familiar with some of them in Africa and they bear no resemblance to the so-called ‘Greek democracy’. In these societies, there were no superior and inferior human beings and all members of society could contribute to the decision making process. The basic structure of governance was not adversarial on a zero-sum game basis but was aimed at building social unity and stability through compromise and consensus building. It entailed a completely different democratic culture based on the fundamental idea that the community must look after the individuals and the individuals must look after the community. The ubuntu concept of “I am because we are” expresses this idea.
Not every society in traditional Africa had this system of governance as some were hierarchical but it was a democratic form of governance that was widespread.
Maybe we need a discussion about how we could modernise and apply such principles to the 21st century so that we can actually develop a democratic country.
@Tron
Leave David Denny alone. He’s expressing his point of view like you express yours. You sound like the colonial dictators that chased Clement Payne off the island because they didn’t like what he was saying.
even the labor laws still carry a component of master and worker…
the wording is actually master/servant on legal documents regarding laws and procedure…i was appalled. the colonial set up that shite leaders have proudly maintained with the people’s money is a disgrace…and they should be punished severely at the polls.
Maybe if we want to have a discussion about democracy, we should define what we mean by that term. I’m happy with “government of the people, by the people and for the people”. I’m not aware that the system of so-called ‘representative democracy’ meets any of these criteria.
dpd makes an important point about declining voter participation in elections which might seem strange given the massive sacrifices made by previous generations to win universal suffrage. But there’s no contradiction. Our foreparents figured that if they won universal suffrage, they would be able to use their numbers to set the government’s agenda and therefore get their social and economic needs addressed. At first the powers that be were terrified by the prospect of universal suffrage as they thought it would cause them to lose their power. They would shoot and lock up anybody calling for it.
However, they soon realised that as long as they kept control of the economy and the system of party government, they could easily bribe and pressure the elected politicians to make sure the desires of the masses are subverted and frustrated. There’s nothing the masses can do about the licentiousness of the politicians within the ‘representative democracy’ but to wait patiently until the next election. But that doesn’t work so well because the new lot do exactly what they voted out the old lot for doing and it just keeps going around in circles.
Alternatively, they can take to the streets and protest but they could do that even when they didn’t have the vote, as was done in 1937. From that bitter experience, many people have concluded that there’s no point in voting because whoever they vote for, they still get mess up. As someone said, in the system of ‘representative democracy’ voting is like choosing between getting shot and getting hung.
Is there a democracy anywhere that is not greatly influenced by a few people?
The people are the pawns in the system having to yield to the awesome power of the king and queen.
Is there a democracy anywhere that is not greatly influenced by a few people?
########
Why call it a democracy then? Do we have the self confidence and vision to try to create one?
A vision is the prerequisite for change. It must be led.
>
Imagine, 10, 20, 30 years of representation and all we have is a long list of unfulfilled promises of better days, and a bill for their pensions. The self-serving political class is a creation of the masses, we therefore don’t deserve change because we are always begging for it.
We had change in 2008 and voted for it again in 2018. It is 2020 and we are still waiting and wishing for that promised change. In 2023, filled with optimism, we will go out and vote for more of the same.
We like it so?
No, not really…
We waiting for Moses.
DPD,
But who has the power to declare war?
@Donna, are you a theorist or a practicing operator… let’s clarify what exactly is a war. I define that here as any military conflict between nations that results in the death of soldiers and/or citizens; the conflict could be over one week, one month or more.
On that basis practically every recent US president since Reagan has ‘declared war’ WITHOUT the direct approval of Congress… History does NOT record congressional approval for the ‘intervention’ (warfare euphemistically named) in Grenada under Reagan; nor does it tell us that Bush 41 had a signed Act allowing him to waltz into Somalia.
Now, let me state for the record that those two actions and several others like in Libya or Syria were essentially humanitarian benefits to the nation being ‘invaded’ or had approvals from the highest UN councils.. . but as far as strict US Constitutional law was concerned that’s irrelevant as they were NOT approved by Congress initially!
Moreover, we know well how Presidents have mamyguyed Congress with false data to get their approval to issue a War Proclamation approval… so who is ‘leading whom’ …the renamed kingly executive or the men and women elected to ideally curb his excesses!
Simply stated the theory of NOT have a King was paramount but the reality of giving their supreme executive control was also quite important!
“Is there a democracy anywhere that is not greatly influenced by a few people?
########
Why call it a democracy then? Do we have the self confidence and vision to try to create one?”
“Is there a democracy anywhere that is not greatly influenced by a few people?
########
Why call it a democracy then? Do we have the self confidence and vision to try to create one?”
Arrgggh“… as Gearbox would say…. @Mr. Blogmaster, please delete 11:15 and 11:16… Gracias!
@ dpD
Is this COVID -19 lock down getting to you too? Take a rest from the blog. I found the respite beneficial. Do not feel compelled to respond to every……
“Is there a democracy anywhere that is not greatly influenced by a few people?”########
“Why call it a democracy then? Do we have the self confidence and vision to try to create one?”
I suggest that we beat this to death impractically. Our democracy is valid and real… we have the ability to exercise our free will to elect our desired representatives. If we allow ourselves to be influenced by a vocal few that is OUR prerogative, but it DOES NOT change our freedom to choose!
There are few properly functioning societal structures in which a dominant few or individual does not take the role of leadership in order to harness the objectives of likeminded individuals.
Leaders maintain their role as long as they have the support of a majority of the group… and as long as they do not use illegal means to sustain that majority then what more can we do, or what new improved model can we create!
No sir… simply an equipment problem which requires careful dexterity … one momentary distraction (or two) and voila… an unwanted post….Will have to be doubly careful!
Lata.
@ dp D at 11 :45 AM
I concur with your exposition on our current form of governance/ democracy. It is pragmatic. We need to isolate the noise makers; those that attempt to confuse the electorate.
I suggest that if we want to have a serious discussion about democracy, we at least define it first.
DPD,
What exactly is your submission? You are speaking about ways that modern presidents have circumvented the power of the Congress. I am speaking about how the presidency has overstepped its originally intended boundaries. I am stating that the people’s desire for the pomp and pageantry and trappings associated with monarchies has elevated the presidency beyond its original place and enabled the expansion of its powers.
So the people have landed themselves back in a virtual monachy.
Haven’t you noticed the political dynasties that are commonplace within the modern presidency?
And if Donald Trump the father wins in November, Donald Trump the son is being suggested to follow.
What exactly was your point? Seems you are just proving mine.
but it DOES NOT change our freedom to choose!
########
To choose what? To choose not to be made unemployed? To choose to have a decent home? To choose to have water in our pipes when we turn them on? To choose to have a decent hospital to go to when we fall sick? Or to choose which group of politicians will be in the pay of the local and foreign elites for the next 5 years and continue to screw us?
@Dee Word and Vincent
How do we understand what has unraveled in Guyana and Trinidad where the numbers has exposed race as an influencer? What kind of democratic system is that that intelligent people will suppress rational thought and vote based on race? Because they are idiots or ignorant?
@ David Bu
There is no mystery to the Guyana andT&T dynamics. It is racism pure and simple. It has very little to do with democracy. It is an attempt to undermine democracy by introducing an extraneous element into the equation. Did we not have this element in our electoral processes prior to 1937 riot? Are there not attempts these days to resurrect it through the Nelson Bassa Bassa and reparations?
@Vincent
Did we have a democracy in 1937?
The point about a voter being influenced by a racial outlook is that we have so-called intelligent people who will vote based on an illogical position with race being one consideration.
The Indian caste system is based on racism
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/jugglebandhi/the-indian-caste-system-is-based-on-racism/
Racism in Hinduism
http://www.trinicenter.com/more/India/invasionsandracism.htm
Racism at Torrib Trace Presbyterian School
https://www.trinicenter.com/Cudjoe/2005/2903.htm
Why Hinduism And The Violence Of Caste Are Two Sides Of A Coin | Suraj Yengde
https://scholar.harvard.edu/surajyengde/publications/%E2%80%9Cwhy-hinduism-and-violence-caste-are-two-sides-coin%E2%80%9D
How Racism And Casteism Feed Into Each Other In India | Suraj Yengde
https://scholar.harvard.edu/surajyengde/publications/how-racism-and-casteism-feed-each-other-india
African victims of racism in India share their stories | India | Al Jazeera
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/04/african-victims-racism-india-share-stories-170423093250637.html
Being African in India: ‘We are seen as demons’ | Racism | Al Jazeera
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/06/african-india-demons-160620101135164.html
Racism is Every Bit a Part of “Indianness” as Religious Bigotry, Sexism
https://thewire.in/uncategorised/racism-is-every-bit-a-part-of-indianness-as-religious-bigotry-sexism
David,
why did you block my other posts?
Racism at Torrib Trace Presbyterian School
https://www.trinicenter.com/Cudjoe/2005/2903.htm
Racism in Hinduism
http://www.trinicenter.com/more/India/invasionsandracism.htm
Being African in India: ‘We are seen as demons’ | Racism | Al Jazeera
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/06/african-india-demons-160620101135164.html
African victims of racism in India share their stories | India | Al Jazeera
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/04/african-victims-racism-india-share-stories-170423093250637.html
@ David Bu at 2:30 PM
I will answer your first question and reserve my response to the second statement.
In 1937 we had a form of Democracy with limited franchise. The Demos was proscribed/ defined other than adult suffrage and that was quite legal and acceptable then.
Racism is Every Bit a Part of “Indianness” as Religious Bigotry, Sexism
https://thewire.in/uncategorised/racism-is-every-bit-a-part-of-indianness-as-religious-bigotry-sexism
Being Black in India can be deadly
https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-02-25/being-black-india-can-be-deadly
@Vincent Codrington
Can you explain what your definition of democracy is? Was there democracy in Barbados during slavery?
@ Tee White
I will treat your question as rhetorical. You aiready know and are trying to be vexatious. I am not going down any rabbit holes today.
@VC 🙂
A good evening to all.
🙂
https://youtu.be/0281WB28cUw?t=68
https://youtu.be/_IdrkKfG0EE?t=4
Which barbados are the people living in
The one presented on BU or the one presented on social media platforms
Day after day BU pages are filled with topics that are dedicated to mundane topics absent of what are happening in the lives of many barbadians whose households are to an economic breaking point heading closer and closer to poverty
A walk across other social media platforms gives a realistic view of how barbadian households are struggling to make ends meet
David dont forget that at the end of the day the bajan household is deserving to be well presented in all issues that affect their well being
Carry on smartly one day you might awake to a rude awakening that BLM no matter who is in power
Oh btw is is friday puddin and souse day in barbados
How is that for good news
@ Mariposa
I remember there was a time when 90% of contributions to BU were authored by DLP supporters or sympathizers and although David BU presented articles on diverse topics for ‘discussion,’ BLP supporters accused him of being a DEM.
GP has his ‘Sweet Sunday Sermon,’ while Adrian Loveridge’s Monday posts focus more on tourism related issues. Then there are the occasional contributors such as Heather Cole who discusses a wide range of topics; Kammie Holder’s interests is environmental issues; while ‘ironside’ and ‘cherfleur’ post articles dealing with politics and civil law suits respectively.
And, I’m sure that during your “walks across other social media platforms,” you’ve probably realized people post articles to give people an opportunity to comment on them.
Why wait on David BU, when you could compile your thoughts into a weekly column and SUBMIT it to BU for all and sundry to post their comments?
Both governments were involved in this low intellect stupidity…
.today’s newspaper said government spends 150 million dollars of TAXPAYERS MONEY ANNUALLY to police marijuana, money that can go to youth programs to generate opportunities and get them off the blocks, even worse it stated, that amount of money is 15 TIMES MORE than what they accumulate in fines for trafficking etc….so how does that make sense other than the governments have always been taking tax dollars and criminalizing African descended people for the plant maliciously….as we thought all along and then brought this shite bill with more oppressive laws to lock up people for marijuana…definitely gotta get kicked out in 2023.
How much proof do Black Bajans need that all both DBLP low intellect governments have ever done is WASTE ALL THEIR MONEY for the last 50 plus years, none of them are any good for their own people, all they do is point out the total destruction to the lives of the majority population that they have done and continue to do, both are the culprits on why the island has been reduced to its current economic and social condition, their corruption has always been more important to them than the people…
we knew they LIED about planning to remove the racist nelson statute, watch out for their slavery schemes and scams next….to further trap the people into bondage to promote their shite racist dependency tourism that will drive more poverty and servitude…..
The Rock Hall Freedom Village project involved the refurbishing of the 20-foot bronze monument; the upgrading of a number of chattel-type shops built by a previous Barbados Labour Party Government, but which were never opened; the creation of a park, which formed part of the original plan, but which was never executed; and the building of an outdoor amphitheatre to facilitate the performing arts. Work on this amphitheatre is still under way.freedom-monument-041617
King pointed out that while Government had announced in late July its intention to remove the statue of Lord Nelson from its current location in Bridgetown on Sunday morning and officially open Rock Hall Freedom Village at 4 in the afternoon, the diversion of resources as a result of unplanned circumstances, led to the decision to concentrate on the St Thomas project for this coming weekend.”
It seems the word of this government means nothing.
It doesn’t Donna, never did, neither did the DLP and their useless lying words to their people and all the corruption, there is a very valid reason why i call them low intellect…this government cannot be allowed to stay past 2023, they have spent the last 2 plus years proving beyond a doubt that the best interests of the Black population is not their priority, once elected, never was and never will be…and now most of the people know it too, they cannot trust this government with their lives and futures.
when ya see the fowl slaves all disappeared from the blog, you know they cannot even bring themselves to pretend anymore, so their yardfowls are now totally useless to them, on their way to extinction… ..
These types of photos out of Africa tend to highlight how generations of Black creatives on the island have been stagnated and repressed, reduced to being boys and girls on the block to become prison fodder for a corrupt injustice system, your leaders are useless, merely trained colonial monkeys in suits, good for nothing, no good for their own people, trained to socially destroy black lives..
https://scontent.fbgi3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/117676130_308198930522942_725300886936416717_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=q1qoXWlcoi8AX-8l3Vq&_nc_ht=scontent.fbgi3-1.fna&oh=1092d27b06a67b70e9ae022a12f5eec0&oe=5F67848D
Artax
My objective is not to rehash what was done or written in previous years on BU politically or otherwise
However i do have an observation which is based on what i have seen taking place on the pages of BU post which are absent of the needs and concerns of barbadians whose lives have been transformed into living hell and for that matter issues of such nature should be sufficient and enough to be giving a post amongst BU pages
No i am not a writer however i am free to bring my concerns in manner that can shine a spotlight on the realities of what is occuring and effecting the barbadian household
Leave it to u to attack the messenger instead of the message
Btw i have noticed on more than one occasion that when issues turns attention to barbados economy BU pages would quickly usher in another post to divert and distract from the troublesome economic performance of the economy .
The truth being that BU seems to have an agenda with full fledge devotion to keep the regular eyes off the pain and suffering of barbadians and govt inept performance of finding solutions
@ Mariposa
Normally, an unemployment rat e of ten per cent is considered a crisis. In Barbados we have an unemployment rate of 40 per cent and there is silence. Plse explain why the Mottley government has gone silent on this human crisis?
For those interested in what is happening in the Barbados economy can catch a read in Barbados Today with statements and concerns from the PdP also giving some forms of solution
Many are beginning to awaken to the fact that too many bajan households are being pushed to poverty and govt has said or done nothing to revived the local economy
So sad that BU which once presented its pages for a Beacon of light and hope for the most vulnerable has adopted a posture to be a silent voice in airing the concerns that mostly affect the voiceless
I shudder to think that after May 2018 BU close its eyes and ears to the economic pillars that are weighing down barbadian households
What was once a voice for the downtrodden has retreated and activated a tone deaf posture for all to see
Shame on BU Shame shame shame
Btw word on the street says those buses gonna cost taxpayers a arm and a leg to get moving on the streets
Word also states the Windows cannot be opened
If what said is true in this Covid environment a health concern would be part of the buses dilemma or a govt having to spend more on buses that is of little value to the people
But who is watching which begs the question does anyone cares
From my perspective this govt cannot get past providing breathing room for the tourism industry
This govt never had any alternatives plans or policies for barbados while in 10 years in the wilderness
Now that COVID continues to reap havoc this govt is caught like deers staring in the headlights
Mottley plan spells like this ” Catch wuh yuh can and hold on to wuh yuh got”
Hence the local economy will fail unemployment would rise and the fast and growing tide of economic doomsday would cover the landscape
This endeavour of giving foreigners a vacation working holiday cannot stimulate local economy and is in no way helpful in putting money in the bajan pocket
The amount it generates which would be a drop in the bucket goes to govt revenue and some which might be generated in the tourism industry
However the local economy needs a full burst of financial injection to keep it from dying a slow and painful death
The course which govt must take is one which can throw BERT out the window but it is a course which govt refuses to embarked upon out of fear thatGovt defaulted on Barbados debt in May and tampering with Bert would be a course less desirable
@ Mariposa
My friend, ‘don’t they teach comprehension in our schools?’ I’m definitely convinced your narrow mindedness creates a problem for you being unable to reasonably understand and interpret what you read.
RE: “The truth being that BU seems to have an agenda with full fledge devotion to keep the regular eyes off the pain and suffering of barbadians and govt inept performance of finding solutions.”
You’ve EMPHASIZED my point!!! A few years ago, BLP supporters were ‘singing a tune’ similar to your above comments. And THAT’S a FACT. But you chose to describe my observation as “rehashing what was done or written in previous years on BU politically or otherwise.”
RE: “No i am not a writer however i am free to bring my concerns in manner that can shine a spotlight on the realities of what is occuring and effecting the barbadian household.”
Your stupidity isn’t surprising. You claim not to be a writer, yet you’re on BU and “other social media platforms” on a daily basis, sharing your thoughts on issues ‘in your own particular, unique way.’
So….. could you please EXPLAIN to me how is ‘ENCOURAGING’ you to compile your “observations” and “concerns” into an essay, similarly to how you compile them into your contributions, and posting them to BU for all and sundry to read and comment accordingly………. is “ATTACKING the messenger instead of the message?”
RE: “Btw i have noticed on more than one occasion that when issues turns attention to barbados economy BU pages would quickly usher in another post to divert and distract from the troublesome economic performance of the economy.”
What “I’ve (also) noticed on more than one occasion” is, after ‘robust discussion’ in 20 or 30 contributions, the focus of blogs is “diverted and distracted” from the substantive topic to one about Donald Trump, Rush Limbaugh, Quakers, US Democrats that owned slaves, personal civil lawsuits involving land in Christ Church or who made Japanese coffee.
However, yours is a POOR EXCUSE. If you’re TRULY CONCERNED and PASSIONATE about “the needs and concerns of barbadians whose lives have been transformed into living hell,”………..
……….. then surely you won’t let ANYTHING PREVENT, DISCOURAGE or INTIMIDATE you from REMAINING FOCUSED and ‘KEEPING the SPECIFIC topic alive.’
Unless, you believe BU’s sole purpose is to fulfill YOUR political agenda and not create an opportunity for contributors to submit their concerns for discussion, similarly to Heather, Kammie and Adrian Loveridge.
Artax your understanding or definition of comprehension may be drawn upon your bombastic urgency to attack me
As i have frequently stated my education is limited to stan pipe and within that frame work i am not as astute as u are in comprehending
Therefore my limited education has given me the ability to observe
In meanwhile i will speak my mind on issues that are affecting the barbados household negatively as well as when purpose sees fit condemn BU for closing eyes and using rabbit holes as diversions to distract from the realities
Any how here is another day for u to enjoy yuh puddin and souse and cou cou
I am off and running with observations in mind
Could you PLEASE EXPLAIN how encouraging you to compile your “observations” and submit them to BU for all and sundry to comment on them, is “drawing upon (my) bombastic urgency to attack (you)?
Is that the reason why you always “draw upon your bombastic urgency to” interpret every comment as an attack on you and respond likewise?
@Artax
Let it go, some on the blog operate in the Facebook bubble. They do not walk the streets of Barbados, visit rumshops, drive about the island or do many other on the ground activities to ensure a rounded perspective of things local. Their sole purpose in their twilight years is to highlight the negative greatly influenced by a political or personal agenda.
So David are u saying that Barbados Underground and other local and international media are part of the FB bubble or are there exemptions
I find your response to be asinine and rooted in political hogwash as an attempt to refocus people attention on the mundane
For what it is worth not expecting better of you since you now hold a badge of honour celebrating govt ineffective policies
To u i say Happy Puddin and Souse day
You are free to to continue on your way. Keep paraphrasing from Michael Howard’s Facebook page.
Artax
I have nothing to explain
However can u explain your torrid need to attack the messenger and never focus on a message that chips away at govt ineptness with a lackadaisical style of blowing smoke in the people face
Or are you sorely insensitive to what the realities of COVID has done to many households across barbados
Waiting for a throne speech might be too little to late
Which Mariposa is this? I like um.
Big words, correct English. Hal is rubbing off on you.
Have a great day! My silly period is coming on..
Give em hell, Wura.
Keep up the good fight, Donna..
🙂
Cuhdear, I don’t know what you are doing, but keep on doing it. Luv yah 🙂
I gotta go
@ Donna
######
You got that right. But the worst part is the ridiculous excuse which tells you 100% that they see Bajans as fools that they can tell any old rubbish and get away with it. But don’t worry, day duz run till night ketch it
TheoGazzerts
mr. Simpleton is that all u have to offer
(1). ONCE AGAIN……. could you please EXPLAIN how ENCOURAGING you to post a compilation of your “thoughts and observations’ to BU can be interpreted as a “torrid need to attack the messenger and never focus on a message?”
Also, please explain your use of the word ‘torrid.’
(2). Could you also EXPLAIN how ENCOURAGING you to post a compilation of your “thoughts and observations’ to BU……….
………….. means I’m “sorely insensitive to what the realities of COVID has done to many households across Barbados?”
(3). I’m confused. You’re always ‘saying’ it’s the “tax cuts, tax waivers and government policies” that have affected “many households across Barbados,”……. NOW it’s COVID-19. Which is it?
DavidAugust 22, 2020 10:17 AM
You are free to to continue on your way. Keep paraphrasing from Michael Howard’s Facebook page.
David if the above comment is directed towards me
You are Wrong
I have no interest in Michael Howard pages
Havent seen or read anything he wrote in months
As i said i draw my conclusions on observations seen and heard
I am not blind or tone deaf to the realities
Artax stay confused i am not about to bring u out of a malaise of malicious undertakings
Have fun and dont forget to drink uh rum and coke
@ Mariposa
There is nothing wrong with learning from others. It is called education. Once you are not plagiarising others, you are on safe ground. By the way, your grammar is perfectly acceptable better than many with GCSEs, CXCs and O levels – and observation is a legitimate sociological tool.
It is a pity when David Simpson indicated that printing money will draw down on foreign reserves you did not feel emboldened to enter with your usual nonsensical argument.
There is some confusion here, did Beckles who is leading the reparations charge and Mia bulshitting around and pretending while trying to re-configure slavery for Black Bajans tell yall anything about this…..i bet not, cause she knows it is very likely that most people will not read the entire article if at all and it may not even resonate …won’t it be a thing that reparations is finally given then their asses get locked up for modern day slavery of their own people….shit like that tends to happen to hypocrites…
“Caribbean countries have been hampered by the ICJ’s jurisdiction, which only goes as far as the UN members allow. The UK does not recognize ICJ jurisdiction in disputes prior to 1974, while The Netherlands does not recognize ICJ judgments on disputes prior to 1921. . France does not recognize the ICJ rulings as compulsory at all.
Although the United Nations has an International Convention on the Elimination on All Forms of Racial Discrimination, this does not mention colonization. In addition, the ICJ is only allowed to bring forth cases for crimes that are committed when a law exists that punishes the crime. Slavery and colonization predated the UN, so there were no international policies treating either as crimes.
Caricom was successful in achieving an economic response the UK after they pressed for slavery reparations in 2013. Caricom is continuing to push for these reparations today because the UK is the only European government that has responded. Caricom will most likely continue to keep pushing for the reparations to be met on the terms that the Caribbean countries initially set.”
Their best bet would be to make the UK pay reparations for that 1948 scam of forcing the descendants of slaves 3 generations worth to pay slave masters for enslaving their own ancestors, while knowing that the UNs 30 Articles on human rights that am sure they helped draft too, went into effect in Dec 1948 and their slick trick Windrush sailed in June 1948…..wicked and wild…
…from 1948-2015, 72 whole years
then there was the mistreatment, discrimination and racism etc…all covered under the 30 Articles of human rights that these people were subjected to for decades….
then both DBLP need to pay the majority Black population for all the corruption and racism, apartheid , thefts of estates and money from the treasury and pension fund, 6 years of oppression and exploitation that they condoned and enabled on the island….they need to pay reparations too or do some hard time.
What is nonsensical is a govt taking money out of people’s pocket without having a policy of replenishing
So far Govt took the pensioners to the cleaners as if that is not enough used a trap called Boss to once again dip into govt workers pocket
As if that was not enough gave away plenty revenue to foreign entities under the banner of Humanatarian
Now the masses are free falling into poverty
Govt stands idly and does nothing
60 years of oppression and exploitation that they condoned and enabled on the island….they need to pay reparations too or do some hard time.
CORRECTION
from 1948-2015…67 whole years
1948-2020…72 years of Windrush scam
It’s the same people will have to do something about the lying, insulting, disrespectful Mia government…the vote beggars must return to the same people to beg votes, can’t be reelected without it…the one thing they cannot is hide their disrespect and disdain for their own people.
“What has happened to the people of Barbados is that the Government had promised them after the major marches that they will remove Lord Nelson and then when the people were looking for it to be removed the same government came and said no they are not moving at this time. So I think the people are hurting inside and the people are losing confidence in the political systems and structures in Barbados because they see how the politicians operate. Politicians operate without any real respect for the people,” Denny said”.
Tee White,
You got THAT right! Nonsensical excuse. White puppet masters pulling strings is the likely reason. They are probably trying show that it will happen only when they say so. Symbolic delay, no doubt. I will never forget being berated by one Hoad girl and other Bajan whites for showing disrespect to the queen by turning my back on her as she passed. Never seen her so livid before that day and never since.
These people were all in on their version of history and the black Bajan’s place in today’s Barbados.
Have they changed their position?
“will never forget being berated by one Hoad girl and other Bajan whites for showing disrespect to the queen by turning my back on her as she passed”
I want them to come telling me any shite about calling her cousin Elizabeth or Elizabeth, let me tell them about their trailer park trash…rejected from UK selves…it’s the shite leaders making these nobodies feel they are something on the island……the shite leaders have to go…and any new parliament rats have to be monitored consistently.
Yo Donna…movement
http://chng.it/wQmCy66H7W
https://youtu.be/fRki1ZkyP84?t=121
For those who don’t know that African descended people are also indigenous to the Americas, including Barbados, where many were born pre euro invasions..
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