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Submitted by Terence Blackett


“And there came one of the [7] angels which had the [7] vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great Whore that sitteth upon many waters… the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornications… (Rev. 17:1, 4).

In an age of rationality (where hardly anything remain sacred), it is easy to see why conditions mirror the Era of Babel where man’s quantum efforts to build a world of their own choosing has resulted in CONFUSION, apathy and everyone a “god” on to himself. Hence the notions of no Absolute Truth; the spurious tale that says “all roads lead to Home” and the bewitching parody of lies which denies the existence of SATAN* and the prevalence of real diabolical EVIL.

“We may disguise poison by mingling it with wholesome food, but we do not change its nature. On the contrary it is rendered more dangerous, as it’s more likely to be taken unawares. It is one of Satan’s devices to combine with falsehood just enough truth to give it plausibility.”

Modern backslidden, apostate Christianity completely mirrors the pagan idolatry of the past. New age theology, modern-day spiritualism and a myriad of hybrid false doctrines have rushed into the modern church with the seismic force of a Tsunami making the common sacred, the unclean acceptable and lukewarm formalism religiously correct. Contemporary spiritualism now imitates nominal Christianity with relentless power to deceive and ensnare. According to the postmodern order of all things “religious”, “Satan himself has been converted” transformed in character to an angel of light working devilish miracles, ultimately causing even fire to come down from heaven with incredible signs and wonders. Deception is rife and has become an acceptable norm while God has been uprooted to be supplanted by the doctrines of men.

The blurring of the lines of “distinction between professed Christians and the ungodly is now hardly distinguishable”. The Church resembles the world; “church members love what the world loves and are ready to join them and Satan is ready to unite them into one body and thus strengthen his cause by sweeping all into the ranks of spiritualism” and a false sense of religious fervour – creating his long cherished ideal of global worship and the usurped sovereignty of planet earth.

So who is this “bloody” woman according to prophecy?

John in Revelation 17:6 was shown – “And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her I wondered with great astonishment.”

This woman did not originate with the Roman church (as many still believe) but rather she produced the church. Therefore, we must trace her existence beyond the beginning of the Papacy. Revelation 18:24 throws light on the subject: “And in her was found the blood of the prophets, and of the saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.” The Holy Scriptures declare that she is guilty of the blood of the martyrs in all ages. Therefore, the woman is drunk with the blood of Abel, and thus the blood of “ALL” the martyrs are found in her: proving that Cain was her first client by presenting a counterfeit sacrifice and by slaying his brother.

Revelation 17:5 says: “And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.” The woman riding this beast system is the MOTHER*.The [7] heads on the beast are the symbols of her daughters (harlots). Catholicism is her first daughter in this symbol, and as Protestantism sprang from Catholicism in the multiplicity of sects, are her daughters also. Thus the number of “heads” and “full of names” include all the offshoots from Protestantism and Catholicism.

Edward Gibbon, in “The History of the Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire” in Vol. 2, p. 273/4 says: “By the edicts of toleration, he [Constantine], removed the temporal disadvantages which had hitherto retarded the process of Christianity; and its active and numerous ministers received a free permission, a liberal encouragement, to recommend the salutary truths of revelation by every argument which could affect the reason or piety of mankind. The exact balance of the two religions [Christian & Pagan] continued but a moment… The cities which signalized a forward zeal by the voluntary destruction of their temples [the Pagan’s] were distinguished by multiple privileges, and rewarded with popular donatives… The salvation of the common people was purchased at an easy rate, if it be true that, in one year, 12,000 men were baptized in Rome, besides a proportionate number of women and children, and that a white garment, with 20 pieces of gold, had been promised by the Emperor to every convert… This was a law of Constantine, which gave freedom to all the slaves who should embrace Christianity.”

Thus Rome paganised the church and where persecution failed – donatives and privileges accomplished! As the pagans rushed to join the church, the current of apostasy turned against the Christians and instead of the church Christianizing the world, the world paganised the church. So what Satanic power failed to do by persecution, was accomplished through retreat and a reversal of the scheme by undermining the apostolic foundation by donatives and various inducements to the pagans in favour of the Christians.

Sadly, if the churches of this present time were led by the Holy Spirit, there would be no confusion amongst the various Christian sects. As it would be impossible for all to be right while no two believe alike, it is warrantable to say that those who are “drinking the wine from the cup of her fornication”, are NOT few, for Inspiration says: ‘And the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication’.

Anglo-American Protestantism has long apostatized losing the virtue of the light for which Christ sought to shine upon them based on the early reformation pioneers and the stand which they made for Him. These churches are still in moral and spiritual darkness and refuse to discern the signs of the times. Yet in all these churches Christ has very FAITHFUL* followers who will heed the call of the “ANGEL” of Rev. 18: 1 to “come out of Babylon [CONFUSION]…”

And although Satan has been converted into a modern-day angel of religious light and zealousness popularized through her false religious and civic institutions, her hallowed seminaries of learning worldwide and her vast cathedrals of magnificent splendour. Nevertheless, we are warned that “through this mammoth system of deception the prince of evil achieves his purpose of bringing dishonour to God and wretchedness to man. And as we see how he succeeds in disguising himself and accomplishing his work through the leaders of the church, we may better understand why he has so great antipathy for the Bible.”

Gibbons further argues that: “Under his [Athanasius’] reign, Christianity obtained an easy and lasting victory; and as soon as the smile of royal patronage was withdrawn, the genius of Paganism, which had been fondly raised and cherished by the arts of Julian, sunk irrevocably in the dust” (Ibid., p.521).

Gibbons explains that: “A special commission was granted to Cynegius, the Praetorian Prefect of the East, and afterwards to Counts Jovius & Gaudentius, two officers of distinguished rank in the West; by which they were directed to shut the temples, to seize or destroy the instruments of idolatry, to abolish the privileges of the priests, and to confiscate the property for the benefit of the Emperor, of the church, or the army… Many of those temples were the most splendid and beautiful monuments of Grecian architecture; and the Emperor himself was interested not to deface the splendour of his own cities, or to diminish the value of his own possessions… In Syria, the divine and excellent Marcellus, as he is styled by Theodoret, a bishop animated with apostolic fervour, resolved to level with the ground the stately temples… But when a sentence of destruction against the idols of Alexandria was pronounced, the Christians set up a shout of joy and exultation whilst the unfortunate Pagans, whose fury had given way to consternation, retired with hasty silent steps… Theophilus proceeded to demolish the temple of Serapis,… and to content himself with reducing the edifice itself to a heap of rubbish, a part of which was soon afterward cleared away, to make room for a church, created in honor of the Christian martyrs” (Ibid., Vol. 3, p. 140-6).

And so the Pagans joined the church through force on one hand and bribery on another instead of conviction of sin and thereby Christianity gave way to idolatry. Gibbons would finally say that: “Both religions had been alternately disgraced by the seeming acquisition of worthless proselytes, of those votaries of the reigning purple, who could pass, without a reason, without a blush, from the Church to the temple, and from the altars of Jupiter to the sacred table of the Christians” (Ibid., Vol. 2, p.522).

Today, one only has to look at the religious ritualism in England and the ongoing defections to the Catholic Church (Tony Blair – Jesuit incognito) as prominent men close their eyes to the real character of Rome and the impending dangers to be apprehended from her eventual supremacy. The warnings come hard and fast to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to our civil and religious liberty. America being the sole agency through which this church hopes to further “change times and laws” through a desecration of the U.S Constitution (an affront to liberty) and the institution of a new global religio-political order or as some infer THE NEW WORLD ORDER.

“Many Protestants [Evangelical Christians] suppose that the Catholic Church is unattractive and that its worship is a dull, meaningless round of ceremony. Here they mistake! While Rome is based on deception, it is not a coarse and clumsy imposture. The liturgy of the Catholic Church is a most impressive ceremonial service. Its gorgeous display and solemn rites fascinate the senses of the people and silence the voice of reason and conscience. The eye is charmed. Magnificent church buildings, imposing processions, golden altars with golden chalices, bejewelled shrines, choice paintings, and exquisite sculpture appeal to the love of beauty. The ear is also captivated. The music is unsurpassed. The rich notes of the deep toned organ, blended with the melody of many voices as it swells through the lofty domes and pillared aisles of her grand cathedrals, cannot fail to impress the mind with awe and reverence. However this outward splendour, pomp and ceremony that only mocks the longings of the sin-sick soul, is an evidence of inward corruption.”

We are surely living at the end of time when all that was prophesied through Daniel & Revelation will come to pass. As decades have come and gone, let us not become slack believing that the promise of the prophesied things will not ultimately come to pass – for they will all occur in quick succession. Jesus reminds us that – if the owner of the house knew when the thief would have burgled his property he would have put in the necessary safeguards – sadly, he entered at a time and at a moment when no one was aware… In like manner will the Son of God consummate all things in a moment we think not.

Thank God John was shown clearly that every man-made system hatched under the deceptive powers of the Dragon will be destroyed and God will ransom a “TRUE” Church without spot or blemish from amongst those who proved faithful even unto death.

It’s time to be ready!!!


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38 responses to “The Conversion of Satan: “The Whole World Wondered After The Beast” – Apostate Christianity, Modern-day Spiritualism And The Alchemy Of The Poisonous Golden Chalice”


  1. terrence…..deception to core terrence…more deception….youd better hope that you are among ELECT because according to the fabricators of that bible GOD somehow changed its mind and has decided to shorten the time JUST for the sake of the ELECT. Anyhow more later on that as a solar flare seems to have blown out my pc BUT in the meantime I stand in solidarity with EL BARADEI …the IAEA inspector who told the world that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction and in solidarity with Egyptian people.Let freedom reign…let it ring out from the mountain top let it ringout from the rooftop. Today tyrants all over the world are shaking in their boots. PRESS ON YE MIGHTY MEN for the end to this bloodsucking tyranical twoheaded christian jewdaic satanic system is coming down down down.


  2. Was there not a God and knowledge of God before the Jews?

    What is in these testaments called the Bible was known and scribed by more ancient peoples, thousands of years before the 1st books of the Bible.

    Christians need to take a serious look at pre Bible history. They would have a much clearer understanding on what their faith is based.

    Peace

  3. Random Thoughts Avatar

    ‘The Conversion of Satan: “The Whole World Wondered After The Beast” – Apostate Christianity, Modern-day Spiritualism And The Alchemy Of The Poisonous Golden Chalice”

    Cheeze-on-bread Terrence, whay can’t you write a nice short heading for your submissions?

    These long headings are a real turn-off.


  4. Terrence, Much of what you quoted from Gibbons is correct, historically sound.

    However, the sweeping condemnation of ALL Protestant demoninations, as being the daughters of the ‘Whore’ is patently false, though I do know the background through which your SDA premise is derived, and we have already dealt with this erroneous centention is another thread last year.

    Now we have neo-paganist, Afro-centrist, Hopi making her appearance, unreservedly supporting Egyptian Mr. Mohammed El Bardadie ( Late of the IAEA) and the Egyptinan rooted Muslim Brotherhood, to topple the dictator, Mubarak.

    Quoting from one of our Caribbean historians:

    “Yes, the same radical Islamist group ( Muslim Brotherhood) that is at the forefront of global Jihadism, and which has developed the 1982 – 100 year plan for global subjugation, under Islam that was exposed by a Swiss Financial Police raid.”

    “With this in mind, I had noticed that there were remarks that the level of protest surged after Friday Prayers just past, which is suggestive of a link to Islamist Jihadism.”

    “According, I was disturbed to read this in a current Caroline Glieck (Owner Jerusalem Post) column, as coming from Mr. El Baradei in an interview with Germany’s Der Spiegel just this week:”

    “We should stop demonizing the Muslim Brotherhood…[T]hey
    have not committed any acts of violence in five decades. They
    too want change. If we want democracy and freedom, we have
    to include them instead of marginalizing them.”

    ‘In the same column, Ms Glick aptly noted of the Muslim Brotherhood.”

    “This group, which forms the largest and best organized
    movement to the Mubarak regime is the progenitor of Hamas
    and al Qaida. It seeks Egypt’s transformation into an Islamic
    regime that will stand at the forefront of the global Jihad. In
    recent years, the Muslim Brotherhood has been increasingly
    into the Iranian nexus along with Hamas. Muslim Brotherhood
    attorneys represented Hizbullah terrorist arrested in Egypt in
    2009 for plotting to conduct spectacular attacks aimed at
    destroying the regime.”
    [NB: Ms Glick also makes a connexion that should give us pause: “As IAEA head Elbaradei shielded Iran’s nuclear weapons program from the Security Council. He repeatedly ignored evidence indicating that Iran’s nuclear program was a military program rather than a civilian energy program. When the evidence became too glaring to ignore, Elbaradei continued to lobby against siginficant UN Security Council sanctions or other actions against Iran and obscenely equated Israel’s purported nuclear program to Iran,s.”]

    Naturally, vipers like Hopi, who hate with demonic vengeance, the Historic Judeo/Christian revelation of the ONLY True and living God, and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, would side with any one who would in anyway suggest a demise of such TRUTH, can’t happen Hopi, won’t happen, no matter how vile and evil this world becomes, no matter how many Muslim Brotherhood’s or Hamas’ or Hizbullah’s they are, or other Anti-Christ haters they are, HE will destroy THEM ALL, at His glorious appearing, just by OPENING HIS OMNIPOTENT, HOLY MOUTH, they will vaperize in a moment, into Everlasting HELL, and HIS true followers will reign with HIM, forever and ever, AMEN!


  5. Jesus is the *only* way to enlightenment and wisdom, among many other things…
    The world wants peace but has rejected the Prince of Peace. There will never be peace in this world until the Master returns.


  6. @TMW

    The cheque is signed by the CEO and is b/o of the bank, those are the facts.

    BTW, what was the purpose of the audit on the bank? Check the archives.

    enuff

    Don’t worry, these things soon shall past.


  7. @ Zoe

    You said,. . . . . . . . .”and HIS true followers will reign with HIM, forever and ever, AMEN!’
    *******************************************************************
    Never thought I would ever agree with you on anything, but hey miracles still happen! So you see “Mr.” Zoe that’s exactly why we LDS will be up front with Him at that great and glorious day and turning to give some like yourself a hand-up! 🙂


  8. @ RT

    Sorry man…

    No offence intended!!!

    LOL!!!


  9. @maat

    “What is in these testaments called the Bible was known and scribed by more ancient peoples, thousands of years before the 1st books of the Bible…”

    PLEASE ENLIGHTEN US!!!


  10. @ ALPHA

    AMEN to that!!!


  11. @ ZOE

    “However, the sweeping condemnation of ALL Protestant denominations, as being the daughters of the ‘Whore’ is patently false…”

    According to “ANGEL” of Revelation 14:8, God would no longer reveal Himself through these fallen entities which made up BABYLON* – though LUTHER, KNOX, WESLEY, CAMPBELL were divinely called by God to bring about REFORMATION* on certain truths which were revealed before their time but were eventually “TRODDEN UNDERFOOT”… What is also noteworthy is that these authors or founders of these theories and movements make no CLAIM* of “INSPIRATION”…


  12. @ hopi
    “you’d better hope that you are among ELECT because according to the fabricators of that bible GOD somehow changed its mind and has decided to shorten the time JUST for the sake of the ELECT…”

    TIME WILL TELL, WON’T IT?

    It shouldn’t be that long of stretch now given what’s going on in our world…

    But you see my dear one, I don’t gauge it from what’s going on in the world – I WATCH THE MACHINATIONS (signs) IN THE SUPPOSED HOUSE OF GOD!!!


  13. Random Thoughts | January 30, 2011 at 8:39 PM |

    ‘The Conversion of Satan: “The Whole World Wondered After The Beast” – Apostate Christianity, Modern-day Spiritualism And The Alchemy Of The Poisonous Golden Chalice”

    Cheeze-on-bread Terrence, whay can’t you write a nice short heading for your submissions?

    These long headings are a real turn-off.

    LOLLLL Random thoughts my thoughts exactly. TB you are turning off many with your long and drawn out postings. Can you please Try keeping them short and simple for a change?


  14. Islandgal246

    OK…I’ll try – PROMISE!!!


  15. @ DAVID

    I am being brow-beaten into a postmodern form of “MINIMALISM” given that in today’s world where attention span (like that of a humming bird) has been narrowed because of the amount of flowers needing pollination that I must try and understand that “LESS IS MORE”…

    Maybe you can suggest a “word count” along with a TITLE TEMPLATE* as a GUIDE* for those of us who are straggling wayfarers – getting carried away in the loop with too much verbosity and verbiage…


  16. @ de hood, my boy, you are still in a terrible state of spiritual deception; “Hood-winked” as the Mormons, LDS, are in such heresy, false doctrine, that the LDS jesus IS most certainly NOT the JESUS of the Bible; NO WAY; and on your present course of LDS beliefs, not even asking for a ‘hand-up’ from where you’ll be can extricate you from that horror!


  17. Terrence, Revelation 14:8, is dealing with the time period of the ‘Last 3 1/2 years’ of the great tribulation, when the Anti-Christ One world government will be in full swing.

    “And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made ALL nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” (Rev 14:8).

    Commentary

    ” Greek: “And another, a second angel followed…” This announcement of the fall of the city of Babylon, the leading city in Antichrist’s political and commercial empire, is proleptic. That is, it is a proclamation of something certain to happen in the future as if it had already happened. Isaiah 53 speaks of Christ’s death in this way – as already accomplished although another seven centuries would pass by until actual fulfillment.”

    “The Antichrist’s city of Babylon will soon fall at the pouring out of the seventh and last Bowl of Wrath (16,17, 19). The fall of this city will then be described in detail in chapter 18. Suffice it for now, however, for us to note that after the calamitous state of the world in Revelation chapters 11-13, this chapter, 14, is now proclaming the safty of the 144,000 and the final doom of all that pertains to iniquity and Antichrist. Of great importance, then, in setting the final picture straight after the aweful scenes of the last 3 1/2 years is this certification of the Fall of Babylon. The details of this fall shall be studied in chapter 18.” (Revelation Visualized, Commentary by Dr. Gary G. Cohen ( a born again Jew) and Background by Salem Kirban ( a born again ARAB, , p.227).

    So, Terrence, what is your point? As this time period, the latter half of the seven year time frame, the last 3 1/2 years, has no relevance to the ‘Church’ unless one holds to the post-trib school of though!


  18. @Terrance
    As an example;
    Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy have a book out called the Jesus Mysteries. Type the title into Google search.

    It describes via research that includes the dead sea scrolls, a character born of a virgin on the 25th December, before 3 shepherds. He is a prophet who offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism. He is a wonderworker who raises the dead and miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony. He is God incarnate who dies at Easter, sometimes through crucifixion, but who resurrects on the third day. He is a saviour who offers his followers redemption through partaking in a meal of bread and wine, symbolic of his body and blood.

    Sounds familiar? Pre Bible history or written mythology has plenty of examples like this. Truly nothing new under the son/sun.

    Peace


  19. @ maat

    All these Dan Brown, Freke, Gandy et al – all belong on MARS HILL with the ancient STOIC & EPICUREAN philosophers who argue senselessly and needlessly over the existence of a TRUE GOD* and whether YESHUA* (commonly called Jesus*) is really the CHRIST – The Blessed One…

    Philosophical or erudite Sanskrit arguments based primordial mythology cannot and will not change what has been recorded in SCRIPTURE* and have been WITNESSED* by more than 500 persons…

    We either believe and accept the RECORD* or move on!!!

    SIMPLE…anything else is speculative gobble-de-goo and unnecessary hocus-pocus!!!


  20. Timothy Freke and Peter Grandy’s book, “The Jesus Mysteries, Was the Original Jesus A PAGAN GOD?” is just another attempt to discredit the greatest and most epochal event(s) ever in history, that of the Birth, Life, ministry, atoning crucifixion and death, resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Christianity Is a FACTual Religion

    “Christianity appeals to history, the facts of history, which P. Carnegie Simpson calls, “the most patent and accessible of data,” Simpson continues that He (Jesus) is a fact of history cognizable as any other.”

    ‘”J.N.D. Anderson records D.E. Jenkins’ remark, ‘Christianity is based on indusputable facts…’ 1/10.

    “Clark Pinnock defines this type of facts.”
    “The facts backing the Christian claims are not a special kind of religious fact. They are cognitive, informational facts upon which all historical, legal, and ordinary decisions are based.” 14/6,7.

    I SAW IT WITH MY OWN EYES

    The writers of the New Testament either wrote as EYEWITNESSES of the events decribed or recorded eyewitnes firsthand accounts of the events.

    II Peter 1:16
    “For we DID NOT follow cleverly devised tales when we made KNOWN to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were EYEWITNESSES oh His majesty.”

    “They cretainly knew the difference betwen MYTH, legend and reality. A professor of a world literature class in which I was speaking asked the question, ‘What do you think of Greek mythology? I answered with another question, “Do you mean were the events of the life of Jesus, the resurrection, virgin birth, etc., just myth?” He said, “Yes.” I replied that there is on obvious difference between these things applied to Christ and these things applied to Greek mythology that is usually overlooked. The similar events, such as the resurrection, etc, of Greek mythology were NOT applied to real, flesh and blood individuals, but rather to MYTHOLOGICAL characters. But, when it comes to Christianity, these events are attached to a person the writers KNEW in time-space dimension history, the historic Jesus of Nazareth whom they KNEW personally.”

    “The professor replied, ‘You’re right, I never realized that before.”

    EYEWITNESSES

    I John 1: 1-3
    “What was from the beginning, what we have HEARD, what we have SEEN with our EYES, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the WORD of Life (JESUS) and life was manifested, and we have SEEN and bear WITNESS and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us (JESUS) – what we have SEEN and heard we proclaim to you also, that you may also have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.”

    Luke 1:1-3
    “In as much as many have undertaken to complie an account of the things acomplished among us, just as those from the beginning were EYEWITNESSES and servants of the Word have handed down them to us, it seems fitting for me as well, having investigated EVERYTHING carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consective order, most excellent Theophilus.”

    Acts 1: 1-3
    “The first account I composed, Theophilus, about ALL that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when He was taken up, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. To these He also presented Himself ALIVE, after His suffering, by MANY convincing, infallible PROOFS (en pollois, an expression indicating the strongest type of legal evidence) appearing to them over a period of forty days, and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.”

    I Corinthians 15: 6-8
    “After that He (JESUS) appeared to more than FIVE HUNDRED brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He (JESUS) appeared to James, then to ALL the apostles; and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.”

    John 20: 30,31
    “Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”

    Acts 10: 39-42
    “And we are WITNESSES of ALL the things He (JESUS) did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusamem. And they also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. God raised Him up on the third day, and granted that He should become visible, not to all the people, but to WITNESSES who were chosen beforehand by God, that is to us, who ate and drank with Him and SOLMNLY to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.”

    I Peter 5:1
    “Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow-elder and WITNESS of the suffering of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed.”

    Acts 1:9
    “And after HE (JESUS) had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.”

    John Montgomery writes, “the inability to distinguish Jesus’ claim for Himself from the New Testament writers’ claim for Him should cause no dismay, since (1) the situation exactly parallels that for all historical personages who have not themselves chosen to write (e.g., Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar, Charlemagne). We could hardly claim that in these cases we can achieve no adequate historical portraits. Also (2) the New Testament writers…record EYEWITNESS testimony concerning Jesus, and can therefore be trusted to convey an accurate historical picture of Him.” 11/48

    The apostles were WITNESSES of His resurrected life:

    Luke 24:48;
    Acts 1:8
    Acts 2:32
    Acts 3:15
    Acts 4:33
    Acts 5:32
    Acts 10:39
    Acts 10:41; Acts 13:31, I Cor 15: 4-9; I Cor 15:15; John 1:2; Acts 22:15; Acts 23:11; Acts 26:16.

    This is just scratching the surface of the vast amount of scholarly research and writings, that present sound, valid, historical, legal, logical FACTS and evidence, that simply cannot be refuted, by any rational, honest thinking person, regarding the historical JESUS CHRIST!


  21. At the historical moment of the one named Jesus, there were several noted and respected historians writing of events of that time. Some were Roman historians in and around the area of the New Testament stories, who recorded the census of the time and other events. Do you know how many of these historians made any reference to someone named Jesus, and to any of the events spoken of in the New Testament? The information is available if you look.

    From my research there was only one historian who mentions Jesus, his reference was fleeting and did not go into much detail. This was one historian of that time out of about 16 whose works are still available today. That one historian of the more than a dozen who wrote at the time of Jesus was later discredited.

    Facts are things that can often be cross referenced. Sensible research can not be the conclusion of getting all your information from one source. If you were studying physics, chemistry or any other subject, would you believe and trust in any one textbook, just because the writers tell you that they are telling the truth, or that they witnessed the experiments or that one or two of the writers say that they are inspired by God?

    Logic would decree that writings, stories, myth if one likes to call them that. once established as being more recent than older writings of the same or similar nature, must be copies of the older works.

    The cross reference point of agreement is that at some time there must have been an awakening of some spiritual/human nature with an understanding of our Creator that is greater than that of the average person. Too many pre Christian references are made of the same acts, powers, requirements and prophecies for them not to be of value.

    Ultimately the expression of worship is for the same purpose, to attain true knowledge of our true nature. Knowledge been different to information, in so much as we need to experience that which we believe, personally, intimately. All are Created from the same source and at that level we are all the same. We may speak different languages, think individual thoughts, but our core, our saving grace remains the same,

    Can anyone believe that our Creator wants to ram his love for us down our throats, that there is some kind of ultimatum hanging over us? ;’Love me , worship me or else….”

    @Terrance.
    One can believe whatever one wishes, as belief leaves room for doubt. Some people prefer to know and therefore move on in real faith.

    Peace


  22. External Support – some early extra-NT writers

    Paul Barnett’s IS the the NT history? 1987, summarises:

    1] Jesus Christ was executed (by crucifixion) in Judea during the
    period where Tiberius was Emperor (AD 14-37) and Pontius
    Pilate was Governor (AD 26-36). [Tacitus, Annals – AD 115)

    2] The movement spread from Judaea to Rome. [Tacitus]

    3] Jesus claimed to be God and that He would depart and return
    [ Eliezar – 90s AD, cited Klausner, 1929]

    4] His followers worshipped Him as (a) god. [Pliny – AD 112,
    Letters to Trajan]

    5] He was called “the Christ” [Josephus, Antiquities, 90’s]

    6] His followrs were called “Christians” [Tacitus,Pliny]

    7] They were numerous in Bithynia and Rome [ Tacitus, Pliny]

    8] It was a worlde-wide movement [Eliezer]

    9[ His brother was James, [Josephus]

    And, you can’t prove it…

    It all depends on what we mean when we say “proof.” As Professor Simon Greenleaf of Harvard, a founder of the modern theory of evidence, advises:

    “In the ordinary affairs of life we do not require nor expect demonstrative evidence, because it is inconsistent with the nature of MATTERS OF FACT…the error of the skeptic consists in…demanding demonstrative evidence concerning things which are not susceptible of any other than MORAL EVIDENCE alone, and of which the utmost that can be said is, that there is NO reasonable doubt about the truth…” (emphasis added)

    [T]he facts, stated in Scripture History…may be said to be PROVED when they are established by that kind and degree of EVIDENCE which as we have just observed, would, in the affairs of human life, satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man.” [Testimony of the Evanglists, Kregal Reprint, 1995, Sections 26, 27, emphasis added.)

    Isn’t all this gospel stuff just copied from pagan “dying-rising god” myths?

    “Ever since Frazer’s ‘Golden Bough’, etc., some have thought that Christianity (esp. through Paul) simply borrowed pagan winter/spring death/rebirth myths of dying and rising gods, from Greeks, Egyptians etc.”

    C.S. Lewis, in ‘Miracles’, made a classic reply: “Myth became FACT.”

    “For, the ages-long winter/spring cycle writes into nature the idea of death and rebirth: which the pagans picked up in their myths. In the Gospels, however, what happens is vastly different: Jesus, as the REAL Creator God Incarnate [Jn 1:1-14, Col 1:15-20], comes in LOVE, dies as a sacrifice for our sins, and rises – at a specific time and place, Israel. All duly prophesied through the Hebrew prophets [cf Is 53, c. 700 BC], and with 500 + EYEWITNESSES; none of whom could be shaken.”

    “In recent years, we have also more and more seen just how deeply Hebraic – and thus militantly ANTI-IDOLATRY – Christianity is. Indeed, in Paul’s terms, Gentile Christianity is a wild olive branch engrafted into the holy Olive tree [cf. Rom 11:11-21]. Heb. 1 is especially telling…” (emphasis added).

    But isn’t ‘reason’ vs faith?

    No.

    If we ask why one accepts a claim, A, one must go to evidence and further claims B to ground it.

    By why accept B?

    That takes us on to C, D…

    This cannot go on forever, so we always have a set of basic beliefs, F, that shape how we view the world. That is, the issue is NOT [a] reason vs faith or [b] reason as an alternative to faith, NO, but in reality: [c] which faith do we hold, why?

    The Christian faith, reasonable, objective, factual FAITH, is anchored in history, the history of Jesus of Nazareth, of the gospel He proclaimed and the Church He founded through dying on a coss and rising from the dead.

    So, that is where we must begin.


  23. The structure of ‘justification’ warranted, credible facts and evidence, in defending any propositional TRUTH CLAIM, is coherence, coherence is our SOLE creteria for TRUTH.

    There is no other religious ‘truth claim’ that even comes remotely close to the historic Judeo/Christian worldview, none, in so far as logical, legal, warranted, coherent evidence is concerned.


  24. No, Almighty God, our Creator does not want “…to ram his love for us down our throats,… ‘Love Me, worship Me or else.”

    This is a very shallow humanistic way of viewing God’s love, mercy, grace, in relation to His Justice, Holiness, and Righteousness, all of which are ABSOLUTE.

    Our Creator, Almighty God, did not create Adam as a robot, He gave him a free will, in his state of created perfection, BUT, with the ability to volitionally CHOOSE his destiny, either to have perfect fellowship, communion, with his Creator, and never DIE, that is spiritually, or physically, OR, chose to DISOBEY Him, the consequences of which, as Adam freely chose to do, which brought DEATH, spiritually, broken, estranged from his Creator, and ultimate physical death, this is the way our Absolutely Holy, Just and Righteous Creator ordered it, because He LOVES us, He gave us the choice of either choosing to obey Him in righteousness, our disobey Him, which necessarily must bring His displeasure upon His judgment.

    We can only understand this when we study God’s Moral Attributes, as He has revealed them to us in His divinly inspired Word, the Bible, as man would have NO way of knowing anything about God, unless and until HE initiated the revelatory process, and this He did.

    Moral Attributes

    Moral attributes are those charateristics or qualities which belong to God, especially in relation to His creatures. These attributes are also those which God intends man to possess and thus are called communicable attributes.

    Perfect Holiness

    The perfect holiness of God speaks of ABSOLUTE purity. He CANNOT tolerate Sin. He is sinless perfection. Holiness is God’s inward character and as such it is underived. He is perfectly holy in ALL He thinks, says, and does. Holiness is the ability to live consistent with the nature of life. Holiness IS the major theme in Scripture as the following passage illustrate.

    Leviticus 1:2 holiness is one key word in Leviticus, being used about 45 times. God commands that Israel be holy as He is holy (Lev. 11:44,45; I Pet 1:16; Exodus 15:11).

    God is of purer eyes than to behold evil or iniquity ( Hab 1:13) The Lord God Almighty alone is holy ( Rev. 15:3-4) Holiness was God’s first revelation to Moses, then came deliverance from Egypt’s bondage ( Exo. 3:1-15) Holiness was also the first thing mentioned to Joshua, then came victory over Jerico’s walls.

    A holy God CANNOT tolerate sin ( Isaiah 59: 1; Hab 1:3)

    Jesus Christ IS the perfectly Holy One ( Mark 1:24)

    It is only when we begin to understand the absolute Holiness of Almighty God, our Creator, that we can then see and understand why HE has to judge ALL unrighteousness, which is SIN, as it simply cannot be tolerated or be allowed in His presence.

    Perfect Righteousness

    Righteousness and justice are synonymous. Righteousnss IS holiness in action against sin. The holiness of God demands that SIN be judged and the sinner punished. Such punishment is the righteousness and justice of God in action ( Romans 2: 8-9; II Thessalonians 1:8) Righteousness is a holy God acting in a JUST and upright manner toward His creatures. This justice is seen in both punishment (Genesis 2:17; Romans 1:32; 2: 8-9) and REWARD (Romans 2:7; Hebrews 11:26; Deuternomy 7: 9-13; Psalm 58:11; Matthew 25: 21).

    The Sriptures attest to these statements

    a. All God’s ways are judgment. He is a God of absolute TRUTH and without iniquity, and He is just and right.
    b. The judge of ALL the earth will DO that which is right ( Genesis 18:25)
    c. The Lord judges with righteousness (Isaiah 11: 4-5)
    d. Righteousness belongs to the Lord ( Daniel 9: 7,14).
    e. The righteousness of God IS revealed in the Gospel ( Romans 1:17)
    f. True and righteous are the judgments of the Lord ( Rev. 16: 5-7)
    g. Justice and judgment are the habitation of God’s throne (Psa. 89:14)
    i. Righteousness and true holiness are the characteristics of the new man being conformed to the image of God In Christ ( Ephesians 4:240.

    Perfect Love of God

    Love IS the heart of God’s nature. God not only has love, GOD IS LOVE. The love of God is the perfection of affection God has which moves Him to give Himself to His creatures continually. This LOVE is not merely an emotion. It is an ACT of God’s will in which He eternally gives Himself. (The Foundations of Christian Doctrine, pp, 52,53) emphasis added.

    This is just a glimmer of the absolute holiness and righteousness of our Creator, Almighty God, as HE has revealed Himself to us, through His Word, the Scriptures.

    Even in our terrible fallen state and condition, here on earth, we still reflect in some small way these principles as we deal with our children, in interpersonal relationships, in our legal justice system, as there can be NO Love, mercy, and forgiveness, without the corresponding aspects of judgment, justice and what is right.

    And, the choice is ALWAYS ours, which way we decide to go, the way of righteousness, OR the way that will bring us into judgment and justice! We cannot have it both ways.


  25. @ Maat…..

    The more you write, the more it makes sense!!!
    Zoe should recognize by now that this is not the average Sunday school Class, who believes without question or the evening service with the gullible geriatrics seeking redemption at any cost.


  26. “…. BUT, with the ability to volitionally CHOOSE his destiny, either to have perfect fellowship, communion, with his Creator, and never DIE, that is spiritually, or physically, OR, chose to DISOBEY Him, the consequences of which, as Adam freely chose to do, which brought DEATH, …….”

    Am I right in thinking that this was a warning to Adam that his actions would cause his demise? Not so much that his Creator would destroy him for disobeying?

    If so, I do understand the difference. It is like the cigarette manufacturer warning that says ‘tobacco kills.’ If we choose to smoke, we open ourselves up to the consequences.

    However the Creation story in the Bible also attributes the Creator as saying, After they have eaten of the fruit; Look how they have become like us (gods) knowing good from evil. Lets banish them from the garden in case they eat from the tree of life and live forever.
    Was death really the consequence, or did they get their priorities wrong?

    I suppose that the scribe of these historical facts was right there and heard this conversation and wrote it down. That somehow Moses was able to read God’s mind and hear his thoughts and yet does not describe how he became aware of this information and where he was at that time.

    Most of the writings of the new testament come about almost 100
    years after Christ and would be one of the few historically ‘factual’ episodes that took so long to be described. It would lead one to believe that none of the writers were actually witnesses to the events of which they wrote, unless they wrote about them when they were 130 years old or thereabouts.

    My point is that any book can be disputed and the Bible is no exception. For instance where in the New Testament does Jesus say, I am the son of God? No such statement is recorded, yet many other statements are attributed to him.

    Any book is but a key to unlock a doorway in our minds. Books give us words in formation, that we then have to make sense of. We can treat books, even the Bible, like a science project and undertake to put this information to the test. Through such experiences we can truly know.

    My personal experience assures me that our Creator is real, simply by treating others as I would have them treat me. If we can love ourselves, knowing that our Creator is a part of each and every one of us, then we can love each other.

    Peace


  27. “Am I right in thinking that this was a warning to Adam that his actions would cause his demise? Not so much that his Creator would distroy him for disobeying…was death really the consequence, or did they get their priorities wrong?”

    Who was/is the Creator of ALL life? Our Creator, Almighty God, and it was Him, who set the conditions, rules, for Adam to LIVE in harmony with Him, and within his natural enviornment, also created by Almighty God, because God IS the source of all life (Rom. 4:17), death must be the result of being ‘cut off’ from God, a process which Adam began ( Rom. 5:15, 17-18; I Cor. 15:220 and in which every human being now participates (Rom. 6:23; Heb. 9:27). Death, then, is a power dominating the present life of the individual, not just something that happens at the end of life. It IS ‘seperation’ from God, a spiritual death, that the person lives all his life. Death or estrangement from God is the common factor in all natural human life ( life according to the flesh, Rom. 8:6; I John 3:14), for SIN with its resulting DEATH lives within the person despite God’s law ( Rom. 7:9; I Cor. 15:56; James 1:15) The archrebel Satan is the lord of death ( Heb. 2:14); indeed death itself may be seen as a demonic power ( I Cor. 15: 26-27; Rev. 6:8; 20: 13-14).

    The good news in the NT is that Christ who did not need to die (since He was sinless) entered into death (Phil. 2:7; I Cor. 5:7; I Pet. 3:18), dying “for us” ( Mark 10:45; Rom. 5:6; I Thess 5:10; Heb. 2:9), and conquered the devil and DEATH, then brakes the power of death over His followers, those who Repent of their Sin, trust Him solely for the Gift of Eternal Life. and are joined to Him or “baptized into Christ” ( Rom. 6: 3-4) and thus die with Him to the world and to sin ( Rom. 7:6; Gal. 6:14; Col. 2:20). Therefore, the Christian passes through the experience of death ‘In Christ” but is now seperated, NOT from God anymore, but from the world and sin, which are dead in the sense of ‘seperation’ for the life in him IS the life of Christ ( II Cor. 4:10; 5: 14-15; Col. 3:3) In other words, the effect of Jesus’ ministry was to GIVE LIFE, or to raise the dead, not in the end of the age only, but immediately. Those who commit themselves to Christ pass NOW from death (spiritual) to life (John 8:51-52) and although the world as a whole is already dead ( Rev. 3:2) and headed toward eternal ‘seperation’ from God, a second death ( Rev. 20:14)


  28. No, you are very wrong in stating, “Most of the writings of the New Testament came about almost 100 years after Christ and would be one of the few historically “factual” episodes that took so lond to be discribed…”

    The Primary source value of the New Testament writers, were that they WROTE as EYEWITNESS, or from first-hand information, they IS emphatically stated as I quoted earlier from Luke 1:13, “….to compile an account of the things accomplised among US, just as those who from the BEGINNING were EYEWITNESSES….” Again in II Peter 1:16; “For we did NOT follow cleverly devised tales….BUT were EYEWITNESSES of His (Jesus) majesty.” Again in I John 1:3, “…What we have SEEN and heard we proclaim to you…”

    The earliest preachers of the Gospel KNEW the value of first-hand testimony, and appealed to it time and again. “We are WITNESSES of these things,” was their constant and confident assertion, ” We are WITNESSES of these things,” but also, “As you yourselves also KNOW” ( Acts 2:22)

    Competent Primary Source Material

    The New Testament must be regarded by scholars today as a competent primary source document from the first century.

    Conservative Dating

    Paul’s Letters A.D. 50-66
    Matthew A.D. 70-80
    Mark A.D 50-60
    Luke A.D early 60s
    John A.D 80-100
    These early NT documents were written by literal EYEWITNESS accounts, and like no other document of antiquity, stand unparalelled in comparison with other ancient documents, when it comes to reliability and trustworthiness of Scriptutre, based on the THREE basic principles of historiography. Thet are the bibliographical test, the internal evidence test, and the external evidence test. The bibliographical test is an examination of the textual transmission by which documents reach us.

    F.F. Peters points out, “On the basis of manuscript tradition alone, the works that made up the Christians’ New Testament were the most frequently copied and widely circulated books of antiquity.” 69/50

    John Warwick Montgomery say that “to be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for NO other documents of the ancient period are so well attested bibliographically as the New Testament.” 64/29

    J. Harold Greenlee states, “…the number of available MSS of the New Testament is ovderwhelmingly greater than those of any other work of ancient literature. In the third place, the earliest extant MSS of the N.T. were written much closer to the date of the original writing than is the case in almost any other piece of ancient literature.” 37/15

    F.F. Bruce says: “There is NO body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament.” 15/178 ( EVIDENCE That Demands a Verdict, Vol I, pp. 39-42) emphasis added.


  29. You ask, “Where in the New Testament does Jesus say, “I am the Son of God? No such statement is recorded, yet many other statements are attributed to Him.”

    Again, you are wrong, for there are numerous text that either implicitely, referred to Him, as the Son of God, or as Jesus Himself said, as recorded in John 10:36;

    Hear HIM!

    “Do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and SENT into the world, ‘You are blasphemimg,’ because I SAID, “I AM THE SON OF GOD.”? (John 10:36) emphasis added.

    This is especially true of John, but instances of it are also found in the Synoptics. When the high priest asked Jesus, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” He answered, “I AM,” Earlier Jesus had identified God as His Father, and in Matt, He referred to God as “My Father” ( 7:21; 10:32-33; 20:23; 26:29,53, In a passage reminiscent of John, Jesus strongly expressed his filial relationship with God ( Matt. 11:25-27 = Luke 10:21-22) and implied it in His parable of the wicked tenants ( Mark 12:6 and par). Even as a boy of twelve Jesus recognized that God was His Father ( Luke 2:49).

    Such assertions as “I and the Father (God) are one” ( 10:30) and “the Father is in Me and I am in the Father” ( v. 38) show that Jesus conceived, knew, and demonstrated His absolute Divine Sonship as eternally unique and unparalleled; thus making Him co-eternal, co-omnipotent, co-omniscient, co-omniopresent with the Father, as He, Jesus said, proclaimed, and DID things that only Almighty God could say and do, therefore comfirming that Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Eternal Godhead, who walked the earth for a short period, expressly for the purpose of bringing reconciliation to estranged mankind through SIN, where HE dies in our stead, paid the ultimate price for our Salvation, Redemption, that one else could do; and those of us over the last two thousand years, from across every know ethnic group of people, who have Repented, and put our trust and faith in HIM, have experienced the absolute miracle of the new-birth, from within, spiritual regeneration, being ‘Born Again’ from above, Justified in, by and through His miraculous Resurrection from the dead, attested to by 500 + eyewitnesses, the apostles, and further attested to by us, who have had the witness from within our hearts and lives, that HE, Jesus Christ is Alive, real, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, Almighty God on high, in glorious majesty!


  30. Perhaps there can be some clarification on a few details regarding the writings of Matthew, written 70 years after Jesus died, when the author, if he was 30 at the time of Jesus’ death would have been around 90-100 years old at the time of writing. What is the point in writing a genealogy of Jesus that describes the family line of Joseph, who is not Jesus’ father?

    How old and where was Matthew when he heard the angel telling Joseph not to be afraid and about what was going to happen to his wife. Was Matthew a witness to these events or did someone tell him about them?

    If indeed the scribe was there with Mary and Joseph before Jesus was born, then he would have to b a lot older than 100 years when he wrote his story 70 years after Jesus died! Matthew must have been near by the three wise men when they were asking directions to Jesus birth place as well. Was he a witness to these statements, or did someone tell him what the wise men said and did, and of the gifts they brought?.

    Mark must have possibly being in his 90’s when he wrote of his eyewitness account of some 50-60 years before. He just happened to be at the river with John the Baptist and heard the voice from heaven. Mark mentions the episode when the disciples are in a boat with Jesus and they became fearful because of the weather. Mark does not say “we were in the boat with Jesus” he says “they”. Was he an eyewitness to these events, did he hear what Jesus said or did someone tell him?

    Luke, who was also an elderly writer and must have been a fifteen year old when he first witnessed Jesus. Am I to understand that Luke was around as a witness to hear what the angel said to Mary, to see John the baptist circumcised, to see Mary wrap Jesus in swaddling cloth. He was also out in the wilderness with Jesus to recall and witness the words of the devil himself. Was he a witness or did someone tell him a story?

    John was probably the oldest of the Gospel writers that some claim were eyewitness’ to Jesus. He also met up with John the baptist and recorded things that other gospel writers did not. It seems as if John (the author of the Gospel and eyewitness) was also invited to the wedding and yet does not claim to be one of the disciples by saying “we” instead of “they”. John claims in chap 8 verse 10, that Jesus was left alone with a woman. He couldn’t have been alone if the eyewitness John, was able to see and record what happened. Again when Jesus was betrayed and John described how Peter was with Jesus and the high priest and Jesus was slapped, John 18 verse 22-23, where was John to witness all this; hiding in a bush?

    I ask you again, were these writers relating something they were told or did they witness what they wrote? No court in any country could convict a man based on such varied witness statements. Accounts that would be hard pressed to stand up to cross examination. Because a man says “I saw it with my own two eyes” does not mean it is true.

    An eyewitness would say “we heard” not “they heard”.

    Bottom line is this. If none of those witnesses’ (Gospel writers) were out in the wilderness with Jesus, for 40 days and nights, they could not record what the devil said or Jesus’ response. If that part is false, why believe any of it?

    Peace


  31. “All Scripture IS given by inspiration of God, and IS profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, throughly squipped for every good work.” ( 2 Tim. 3:16-17)

    ‘Given by inspiration of God’ is rendered from the Greek word, ‘theopneustos’ which literally means, “God-breathed.” This is Scripture’s most important statement about itself, meaning that Scripture, God’s Word, the Bible, is the product of God’s creative breath. Therefore, being God’s own utterance, it is properly called ‘the Word of God.” Here Paul only states the fact of ‘inspiration’ without explaning the process. Elsewhere he elaborates on the Holy Spirit’s role in the production of the written Word ( I Cor. 2: 9-15; see also 2 Peter 1:21).

    I have no intention of repeating myself for the benefit of those who have choosen the path of Selective Hyper Sckeptisim, picking at foolishness, wilfully denying the facts of substance, pertaining to the Person of Jesus Christ, who were EYEWITNESSES, of HIM, ate, drank, and were taught by HIM, testified to HIM, saw HIM after HIS resurrection, and HIS ascension, and continued in HIS resurrected POWER and authority, without which NO possible preaching or witnessing would ever have been possible.

    The historian Ohilip Schaff ( The Person of Christ, American Tract Society, 1913) vividly describes its uniqueness along with its Savior:
    “This Jesus of Nazareth, without money and arms, conquered more millions than Alexander, Caesar, Mohammed, and Napoleon; without science and learning, He shed more light on things human and divine thal all philosophers and scholars combined; without eloquence of schools, He spoke such words of LIFE as were never spoken before or since, and produced effects which ie beyond the reach of orator or poet; without writing a single line, He set more pens in motion, and furnished themes for more sermons, orations, discussions, learned volumes, works of art, and songs of praise than thw whole army of great men of ancient and modern times.”

    Bernard Ramm adds:

    “There are complexities of bibliographical studies that are unparalleled in any other science department of human knowledge. From the Apostolic Fathers dating from A.D. 05 to modern times is one great literary river inspired by the Bible.”

    Kenneth Scott Latourette, former Yale historian, says:

    “It is evidence of His importance, of the effect tthat He has had upon history and presumably, of the baffling mystery of His being that NO other life ever lived on this planet has evoked so huge a volume of literature among so many peoples and languages, and that, far from ebbing, the flood continues to mount.”

    F.F. Bruce, the Rylands Professor of Biblical Criticism and Exegesis at the University of Manchester, says, concerning the primary-source value of the New Testament records:

    “And it was not only friendly EYEWITNESSES that the early preachers had to reckon with; there were others less well disposed who were also conversant with the main FACTS of the ministry and death of Jesus. The disciples could not afford to risk inaccuracies (not to speak of wilfull manipulation of the facts), which would at once be exposed by those who would be only too glad to do so. On the contrary, one of the strong points in the original apostolic preaching IS the CONFIDENT appeal to the knowledge of the hearers, they not only said, “We are WITNESSES of these things, ‘BUT also, ” As you yourselves also KNOW’ (Acts 2:22), Had there been any tendency to depart from the FACTS in any material respect, the possible presence of hostile witnesses in the audience would have served as a further corrective.”

    The Resurrection: Hoax or History?

    The Historical Approach.

    Concerning this, Wilbur Smith says: “The meaning of the resurrection is a theological matter, but the fact of the resurrection is a historical matter; the nature of the resurrection body of Jesus may be a mystery, but the factthat the body disappeared from the Tomb is a matter to be decided upon by historical evidence,”

    Speaking of the forensic nature of the New Testament narratives Bernard says: “In Acts 1, Luke tells us that Jesus showed Himself ALIVE by many infallible PROOFS (en pollois tekmeriois) an expression indicating the strongest type of legal evidence.”

    Testimony of History and Law

    When an event takes place in history and there are enough people alive who were EYEWITNESSES of it, or had participated in the event, and when that information is published, one is able to verify the validity of an historical event (circumstantial evidence).

    Ambrose Fleming asserts that there is nothing in the Gospels that would cause a man of science to have problems with the miracles contained therein, and concludes with a challenge to intellectual honesty, asserting that if such a “…study is pursued with what eminent lawyers have called a willing mind, it will engender a deep assurance that the Christian Church is not founded on fictions, or nourished on delusions, or as Peter calles them, ‘…cunningly devised fables, ‘but on historical and actual events, which however strange they may be, are indded the greatest events which ever happened in the history of the world.”

    Another example may be taken from a letter written by Sir Edward Clark, K.C. to Rev. E.L. Macassey: “As a lawyer I have made prolonged study of the evidences for the events of the Easter Day. To me the evidence is conclusive, and over and over again in the High Court I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. Inference floows on evidence, and a truthful witness is always artless and isdains effect.”

    “The Gospel evidence for the resurrection is of this class, and as a lawyer I accept it unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to the facts they were able to substantiat.”

    John Singleton Copley, better known as Lord Lyndhurst (1772-1863) recognised as one of the greatest legal minds in British history, when Chancellor Lyndhurst died, a document was found i his desk, among his private papers, giving an extended account of his own Christian faith, he wrote:

    “I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the Resurrection has NEVER broken down yet. The evidence points unmistakably to the FACT that on the third day Jesus rose.” This was the conclusion to which the former Chief Justice of England, Lord Darling came, “In its favour as living truth there exist such overwhelming evidence, positive, negative, factual and circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world could fail to bring in a verdict that the Resurrection story is true.”

    So, Sir, you can continue nick-picking at foolishness, the facts and evidence, from an legal High Court, logical perspective, simply cannot be refuted, unless one is intellectually dishonest, and, unfortunately, there are any number of such individuals around!


  32. But Zoe…..

    Maat has proven his point, it is YOU who is wandering all over the place quoting this and quoting that.
    You claim that these facts cannot be refuted, yet still you cannot even begin to answer, instead you run and deflect with that worn out disclaimer by Christians………’you can continue nick-picking at foolishness…..’
    You then go one to use one of Dictionary’s favorite attack on those who stump people of your ilk…..Selective Hyper Skepticism.


  33. Maat you are very clear in what you are saying. Zoe sounds like a lunatic spewing quotes and references that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    As a child I was taught that Jesus was the son of God and that God was the father. How come now Jesus has now become a God with many worshiping him. As for Joseph and Mary, they were a married couple right? Mary was pregnant with child from having sex with her husband right? She gave birth to a son and they named him Jesus. Joseph was Jesus’ father right? Why was all this spin about an angel impregnating Mary when she was having intercourse with her husband a natural occurrence. There is so much hocus pocus written in the Bible that people call miracles, and when this same hocus pocus is practiced by non Christians it is called Voodooo, Black magic and Witchcraft by Christians. What I can’t understand is why many learned people have thrown common sense out of the door and have willingly become followers of this dogma. Many have seen how easily mankind can be manipulated and have used it to their advantage.


  34. Ignorance, at the natural human level of ‘lacking knowledge, understanding, perception is bad; BUT, when there is such a ‘vacum’ void, of it, at the level of spiritual knowledge, discernment, it is so much worse!


  35. Poor Zoe…..

    Can’t answer simple questions so you resort to insults….


  36. Zoe – Your “the ‘Last 3 1/2 years’ of the great tribulation, when the Anti-Christ One world government will be in full swing” statement is not even biblical. If you believe this you are deceived along with many of the ecumenical world. That is of the false “Left Behind” doctrine from a book of fantasy. Please study scripture, brother.

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