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Alice Smeets for The New York Times Many of the customers for legal drugs in Maastricht, the Netherlands, are young people, and most of them are foreigners – NYT

Two popular reasons are usually given to support decriminalizing the possession of the โ€˜softer drugsโ€™ like marijuana and cannabis in Barbados. Many cite studies which support marijuana use because it is a vegetable matter, it is naturally received by the body and it has medicinal influence. In many countries the use of marijuana is prescribed for specific ailments. Did anyone watch Willie Nelson on Larry King recently? The guy admitted he has been puffing the weed daily for years.

The other reason is the extent to which people charged with possession of the softer drugs help to create congestion in the Court System and therefore negatively influence how justice is dispensed. It is no secret there is a criminal underworld which supports the drug trade and to abolish serious penalties of possession of the softer drugs would go a long way towards its dismantlement.

A BU family member recently read about the negative effect the 13 Coffee Shops (Marijuana/hashish can be purchased legally) in the Netherlands are having on that country. The Dutch cities where the Coffee Shops are located attract high traffic from the โ€˜drug touristsโ€™ who become the target for criminal activity. Bear in mind freedom to travel cross-border under the EU arrangement makes it difficulty to ban travel. The matter is currently being tested in the European Court of Justice. A unique solution designed to protect Dutch youth has now been abused because of the open borders brought about by the EU arrangement. To quote the article โ€˜allowing one countryโ€™s security concerns to override the European Unionโ€™s guarantee of a unified and unfettered market for goods and services.โ€™

The predicament the Dutch currently finds itself and specifically the 13 cities where the Coffee Shops are located represent learning for Barbados. To those who are proponents of decriminalizing soft drugs in a CSME arrangement โ€“ what of it? If Barbados were to go that route wouldnโ€™t the drug tourists flood Barbados in the same way they do the Netherlands from the EU border countries?

The point the BU family member wants to share is to highlight how the Dutch experiment has gone bad. What can we learn from it? The article from the New York Times is copy and pasted below for easy access.

A Dutch City Seeks to End Drug Tourism

By SUZANNE DALEY

Published: August 17, 2010

MAASTRICHT, the Netherlands โ€” On a recent summer night, Marc Josemansโ€™s Easy Going Coffee Shop was packed. The lines to buy marijuana and hashish stretched to the reception area where customers waited behind glass barriers.

Thousands of โ€œdrug touristsโ€ sweep into this small, picturesque city in the southeastern part of the Netherlands every day โ€” as many as two million a year, city officials say. Their sole purpose is to visit the cityโ€™s 13 โ€œcoffee shops,โ€ where they can buy varieties of marijuana with names like Big Bud, Amnesia and Gold Palm without fear of prosecution.

It is an attraction Maastricht and other Dutch border cities would now gladly do without. Struggling to reduce traffic jams and a high crime rate, the city is pushing to make its legalized use of recreational drugs a Dutch-only policy, banning sales to foreigners who cross the border to indulge. But whether the European Unionโ€™s free trade laws will allow that is another matter.

The case, now wending its way through the courts, is being closely watched by legal scholars as a test of whether the European Court of Justice will carve out an exception to trade rules โ€” allowing one countryโ€™s security concerns to override the European Unionโ€™s guarantee of a unified and unfettered market for goods and services.

City officials say they have watched with horror as a drug tolerance policy intended to keep Dutch youth safe โ€” and established long before Europeโ€™s borders became so porous โ€” has morphed into something else entirely. Municipalities like Maastricht, in easy driving distance from Belgium, France and Germany, have become regional drug supply hubs.

Maastricht now has a crime rate three times that of similar-size Dutch cities farther from the border. โ€œThey come with their cars and they make a lot of noise and so on,โ€ said Gerd Leers, who was mayor of Maastricht for eight years. โ€œBut the worst part is that this group, this enormous group, is such an attractive target for criminals who want to sell their own stuff, hard stuff, and they are here too now.โ€

In recent years, crime in Maastricht, a city of cobblestone lanes and medieval structures, has included a shootout on the highway, involving a Bulgarian assassin hired to kill a rival drug producer.

Mr. Leers used to call the possibility of banning sales to foreigners a long shot. But last month, Maastricht won an early round. The advocate general for the European Court of Justice, Yves Bot, issued a finding that โ€œnarcotics, including cannabis, are not goods like others and their sale does not benefit from the freedoms of movement guaranteed by European law.โ€

Mr. Leers called the ruling โ€œvery encouraging.โ€ Coffee shop owners saw it differently.

โ€œThere is no way this will hold up,โ€ said John Deckers, a spokesman for the Maastricht coffee shop ownersโ€™ association. โ€œIt is discrimination against other European Union citizens.โ€

If Maastricht gets its way, many other Dutch municipalities will doubtless follow. Last year, two small Dutch towns, Rosendal and Bergen op Zoom, decided to close all their coffee shops after surveys showed that most of their customers were foreigners.

The situation has not made for good neighborly feelings. Many residents of border towns criticize Belgium, France and Germany for tolerating recreational drug use but banning the sale of drugs. โ€œThey donโ€™t punish small buyers,โ€ said Cyrille Fijnaut, a professor at the University of Tilburg law school. โ€œBut they also donโ€™t have their own coffee shops, so that leaves us as the suppliers. Our policy has been abused, misused, totally perverted.โ€

As business has boomed, many of the Dutch coffee shops โ€” dingy, hippie establishments in the โ€™80s and โ€™90s with a few plastic tubs of marijuana on the shelves โ€” have become slick shops serving freshly squeezed orange juice and coffee in fine china.

The Easy Going Coffee Shop has a computer console at the door where identification documents proving that customers are 18 or older are scanned and recorded. Tiny pictures on driverโ€™s licenses are blown up to life-size on a screen, so guards can get a good look at them. Behind the teller windows, workers still cut the hashish with a big kitchen knife, but all sales are recorded on computerized cash registers.

Mr. Botโ€™s ruling last month is only an early step in determining whether Maastricht can enforce a Dutch-only policy. A final ruling by the full court is expected by the end of the year.

But Mr. Botโ€™s finding, a veritable tirade on the evils of drugs, surprised many legal scholars, who expected the European Unionโ€™s open market rules to trump any public order arguments, as they have in other cases. Sweden, for instance, which has a long history of struggling with alcohol abuse, was obliged to take down most of its anti-alcohol laws restricting store hours and sales, as they were seen as impinging on free trade.

Polls show that a majority of the Dutch still believe that the coffee shops should exist. But the Netherlands once had 1,500 of them; now, there are about 700. And every year, the numbers decline, according to Nicole Maalste, a professor at the University of Tilburg who has written a book on the subject. โ€œSlowly, slowly they are being closed down by inventing new rules, and new rules,โ€ Ms. Maalste said.

Much of the criminality associated with the coffee shops, experts say, revolves around what people here call the โ€œback doorโ€ problem. The government regulates what goes on in coffee shops. But it has never legalized or regulated how the stores get the drugs they sell โ€” an issue that states in the United States that have legalized medical marijuana are just beginning to grapple with.

In recent years, the tremendous volume of sales created by foreigners has prompted an industry of cultivating cannabis and other drugs within the Netherlands โ€” some estimate that it is now a $2 billion a year business โ€” much of it tangled in organized crime and money laundering operations, experts say.

Advocates for legalized sales and coffee shop owners argue that trying to restrict foreigners will only encourage them to buy illegally in the streets. They also say that coffee shops have other selling points: they pay 450 million euros a year in taxes and provide thousands of jobs.

Mr. Deckers, the shop association spokesman, said coffee shop owners were so skeptical that the European Union would allow restrictions on sales based on nationality that they encouraged the city to get a ruling on the subject. They doubt Mr. Botโ€™s arguments will stand. โ€œWe know he is wrong,โ€ Mr. Deckers said.

A version of this article appeared in print on August 18, 2010, on page A1 of the New York edition.

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53 responses to “Decriminalizing Drugs Brings Its Challenges In A Common Market Arrangement – Just Ask The Dutch”


  1. But the relevance to Barbados is, at BEST, minimal. The drug tourists being complained of mostly, as the article says, come from other close European countries – they are a bus/train/car ride away. To get to Barbados, you would have to take a plane or boat. Barbados is an island, its borders are not “pourous”.

    Given the fact that the majority of the Dutch believe that soft drugs should be legalized, all this report does is confirm what I have often stated, which is that soft drugs should be made legal.

    One other point to consider is that it is far from cheap to visit Barbados, so we are not in any danger of carloads, busloads, trainloads of hippies with little money, but an overpowering urge to get legally stoned, sullying our fair beaches. And as for rich, stoned tourists – we have them now, so what’s the problem.


  2. As I understand it, one of the reasons for decriminalising cannabis is to separate it from the Class A drugs, and so do something to stop cannabis users progress onto the likes of heroin. I don’t know if there has been any research into how succesful the Dutch policies have been in this area. However, there is a growing recogniton that for policies like this to work, there has to be international agreement and cooperation.
    In a number of countries around the world, including Britain, the debate has moved on and there are serious calls from health and legal professionals to look at whether ALL drugs should be decriminalised. Their argument is that over the past 40 years prohibition has been a dismal failure, and that drug addiction should be treated as a health problem and not a criminal one. To quote Sir Ian Gilmore, a former president of the Royal College of Physicians in the UK:
    “We see people in hospitals every day who are suffering not from heroin but from dirty needles, from impure supplies of the drug. There has been some really successful projects providing, not every addict, but the hard end of the spectrum – so to speak – with clean heroin under controlled conditions. It improves health, it gets them off of heroin and it stops the crime, it stops them stealing to feed the habit.”
    In an article an article published on 13 July in the British Medical Journal by Stephen Rolles, (policy analyst at the Transform Drug Policy Foundation), it was argued that criminalising drug use had not only exacerbated health problems such as HIV, spread by the use of dirty needles, but had also been the cause of a larger number of secondary problems: vast networks of organised crime, endemic crime and violence related to the drug market, corruption of police and governments, and funding of terrorism.
    The one thing I know to be true is that existing drug policies around the world have failed and as a result there is a growing health and social problem.


  3. So what is the problem identified here?

    Worldwide we have seen the situation develop where drugs have penetrated all strata of our society. we now live with:

    > Powerful, wealthy, armed cartels which bribe officials and dispense their own justice against anyone of their choosing.

    > Millions of young lives destroyed

    > Countless millions in state resources spent on police, military and court systems to (unsuccessfully) control this scourge.

    > Families devastated

    > Criminals succeeding and becoming role models for youth.

    All this because some idiots decided to criminalize these drugs and thereby make them valuable enough to support this illegal industry.
    (Or maybe those behind criminalizing drugs are NOT idiots, but understand very well what they are about…..)

    If these substances could be purchased legally in shops – (even if requiring some kind of medical prescription,) then the whole drug trade industry immediately looses viability…..and eventually collapses.

    As to those other idiots who would take the opportunity to indulge in the now-legal activity…… SO WHAT?
    ….if that is the way they choose to waste their lives then that is their choice.
    MOST of us waste our lives in silly ways too…. chasing after legal but meaningless things which adds nothing to the true purpose of life.
    > alcohol
    > wealth
    > fame
    > hobbies
    ….how are those who foolishly choose to lose themselves through drugs so much different?

    IT IS THEIR FREE CHOICE….. all is vanity.

    As to the ‘problem’ of tourist being attracted in large numbers because of the change…….
    What problem what??!!

    How come there is no ‘problem’ when our much vaunted beach bums become a major attraction for the hoards of deprived tourists who arrive here largely attracted by their ‘offerings’?

    Every human should have the right to choose their life’s path.

    Society owes guidance, education, counseling, and support, but the idea of FORCING people to do what society thinks is right for their own good is short sighted and counter productive. This is so because life is DESIGNED to provide humans with the unique opportunity to develop the only thing that is of any worth in this life – CHARACTER.

    If you force your child to live under your skirts for 21 years and successfully shield that child from any evil, does that provide a mature, rounded adult of strong character?
    It is by teaching, guiding, supporting and counseling that child through all the pitfalls of childhood- that an adult of character is produced.

    Oh wisdom, why art thou hidden from our sight?


  4. When does a child develop the character to say “no” ? Drugs very rarely gives its victims second chances. As a parent I shield my children from that which I know to be harmful while simultaneously counseling, preaching, berating, praying, crying, pleading, threatening against the negative things and praising, encouraging, modeling, supporting, promoting the positive things.


  5. @ Anonymous
    Of course you are correct to shield, counsel and generally guide your child.
    We are saying the same thing, yours is just a more elegant way.

    Do you go around attacking, and isolating every possible evil influence that can ensnare the child? Do you isolate him/her from all possible danger? do you impose draconian penalties every time he errs?
    …… or do you work WITH THE CHILD – explaining the dangers, pointing out the consequences, living the example, and being the shoulder to lean on?

    In the final analysis, a child’s character is built after suitable years of childhood experiences of good, bad, sadness and evil – and with loving guidance from parents like you.

    It is NOT achieved by seeking to isolate children away from reality in some monastery or haven, where there are no temptations.


  6. @Amused

    Your position is based in current realities. Picture a scenario where Barbados decriminalized the soft drugs. Indigenous airlines and cruise ship companies may see a demand for 1-3 day puff trips, weekend cruises to Barbados the same thing.


  7. Why not start by looking at how and why cannabis was criminalised in the first place?
    One ambitious politician, a lot of lies, put fear into ignorant people….presto we have laws.


  8. Henry J Anslinger…..google him.


  9. This article is insane. The “problem” identifiedโ€” huge tourist traffic challenging their infrastructureโ€” is the same “problem” we were desperately hoping to achieve this past world cup.

    This can only be framed as a problem for the Dutch by those who wilfully ignore the huge economic and human cost of drug prohibition as it currently exists in most countries.

    Repealing prohibition doesn’t guarantee an absence of challenges, folks. It just means that the challenges we face would be *smaller*.


  10. @ Me
    Repealing prohibition doesnโ€™t guarantee an absence of challenges, folks. It just means that the challenges we face would be *smaller*.
    **********************************************************
    ….The Bushman would argue that, paradoxically, the challenges that we face by seeking to re institute prohibition are much costlier in dollars, in lives, in sorrow, and in horror- than any ‘problems’ identified by the Dutch experiment…. not smaller.


  11. David wrote “marijuana use because it is a vegetable matter, it is naturally received by the body and it has medicinal influence. ”

    My response: natural or vegetable has nothing to do with anything.There are all kinds of natural vegetable substances which are harmful or deadly even in very small amounts. And why would a person who is not sick need something which has medicinal qualities?

    David also wrote ” It is no secret there is a criminal underworld which supports the drug trade and to abolish serious penalties of possession of the softer drugs would go a long way towards its dismantlement.”

    My response: I marijuani is decriminalized the criminal underworld is not going to lay down and play dead. The criminal underworld will start supplying you and your children with legal prescription drugs. Ever heard about prescription drug abuse David? The sort of abuse where those who do not for example need morphine will be supplied by the criminal underworld.

    Dear David: You and some of the posters here are dangerously naieve.


  12. J:

    “I marijuani is decriminalized the criminal underworld is […] will start supplying you and your children with legal prescription drugs.”

    Uh… evidence, please?

    Dude! If marijuana is decriminalised the criminal underworld will smoothly continue trafficking cocaine. No need for the weird scare stories.

    That said, I agree with you that too many people delude themselves that “natural” means “better” or “safer”. It doesn’t. D’ya hear that, David?

    Bush Tea: The current, ongoing costs of prohibition are staggering!


  13. From my experience and I have been to Holland several times and seen the coffee houses in Amsterdam – and how their business is conducted and with whom – and in a professional capacity seen evidence of the impact by supply and the usage of marijuana.

    I am also aware there are people who use marijuana regularly and are upstanding, hardworking members of society. As there are those who for religious or medicinal purposes utilize the substance. However, I have never seen any evidence, either academic, scientific or financial which “conclusively” proves that the wholesale legalization of marijuana would be for a better society…and that evidence has not been satisfactorily rebutted.

    With regard to Barbados and being a tourist destination; think of Goa in India once thought of as a tourist idyll. In many cases farther away from the main tourist markets of Britain, the USA and Canada.. ( Thus refuting the argument Barbados is too far away for people to come here to use drugs)

    Goa is now known for drugs, rape, murder on the beaches and general harrassment of tourists, the light of happiness that once shone there has gone out and the inhabitants regret what they have lost…and it is unlikely to return. I am not dogmatic in my position and can be convinced, I just have not seen the “evidence”.


  14. @David. You miss two extremely salient points. Barbados has the right to determine which airlines will land at its airport. Barbados also has the right to arbitrarily tax said airlines. The control Barbados exerts over the financial status of the people to visit our shores is one of outright veto, as well as financial. So, if these tourists all want to pay (and pay highly) to come here and smoke weed and it goes into the Barbados coffers, what is wrong with that?

    I second the submissions of Mr Williams, Bush Tea and Yardbroom. I have been indulging, from time to time (read “often”) in the dreaded and derided weed for many, many years. Indeed, there are those unkind enough to say that I have been indulging since before it was made illegal. Frankly, after my exhaustive and highly enjoyable research, I have not got a clue as to why it was criminalised in the first place – except, might it be that since we can all grow it in our back gardens, it would prove impossible (unlike rum and the like) for government to tax? As it is the avowed intention of governments everywhere (except, apparently, the Netherlands) to tax out of existence anything that gives people pleasure, as soon as a means of assuring that taxation of what we grow in our back gardens is found, they will let the use commence.

    The argument made by Anonymous you could drive a truck through. I have always advised children not to drink rum. In fact, I have even gone so far as to prohibit them from drinking rum (except for a teaspoonfull in a glass of warm milk when they are sick). Equally, I have prohibited them from smoking cigarettes made from the LEGAL, but highly addictive and harmful, tobacco.

    Once they have reached a certain age (like adulthood) it has really been up to them if they drink rum (or any of the other legal refreshments available) or smoke tobacco. I have often joined them in indulging in the former, though not the latter. I have even joined them in the smoking of many joints. It is silly to suggest that smoking weed will lead to the use of heavier drugs. As silly as suggesting that people who enjoy a rum to relax, will become alcoholics. And if the use of either leads to heavier drugs or alcoholism, do you think outright criminalisation and prohibition will solve the problem? Or, as has been pointed out, lead to the birth of criminal cartels (which USA prohibition – Al Capone etc.) And why the hell should we, the majority who use weed responsibly, be deprived because of the few who don’t, in order to satisfy the “do-goodiness” factor of a minute and very vocal minority who, likely unsure of their parenting skills, wants society to take up the slack?

    @J. All is right with the world. It appears we disagree once more – sort of.


  15. @Amused,

    what “argument” did I present other than the one you imagined me to make? Your admission of marijuana use juxtaposed with your unbalanced (or is it self serving or misinformed or obscurantist?) view of the problems associated with substance abuse makes a possible “exhibit 1” in the case against marijuana use.


  16. @Amused
    In law you may have a leg but to administer vetoes on airlines and the other suggestions you made seem to have the makings of an admin headache.


  17. I Like It…

    Come on in for another sizzling selection of fine Jamaican music that will satisfy your musical appetite…

    Little Kirk — Weed Them Out
    Serani — It’s So Hard
    Chezidek — I Like It

    House of Reggae Pt. 65 – Mary Jane Special
    http://houseofreggae.podomatic.com/entry/eg/2009-08-23T01_58_54-07_00
    (*) = Please Note: MJ, may be illegal.. but it is not immoral


  18. David,
    Thanks for posting.
    The varied views are interesting.
    Thanks again.

    John Walcott


  19. Me wrote quoting J…โ€œIf marijuani is decriminalized the criminal underworld is […] will start supplying you and your children with legal prescription drugs.โ€
    Me wrote “Dude! If marijuana is decriminalised the criminal underworld will smoothly continue trafficking cocaine”

    Yes I agree with you.
    Criminals always find ways to exploit market places. So yes they will supply cocaine AND prescription drugs.

    To Amused: So we disagree again (as usual) Enjoy my share of the herb, since I’ve never tried it myself, that means there is plenty more for you to enjoy.


  20. Well, well…….why am I not surprised that “Amused” is and has been a habitual user of pot for years?


  21. The Bushman’s position is simple.

    If J’s children (and Amused) are in the market for marijuana, or any other drug for that matter, Bushie says let them have it at nominal market price.
    Doubtless, this will be bad for them, for their families, and for society, and would be best avoided…..however..

    The problem with society seeking to criminalize drug use – in the interest of protecting citizens, is that this then artificially increases the value of the drug to the point where it now becomes highly ‘valuable’.

    This idea of a bag of bush that anyone can grow in their backyard, being ‘worth 1.2 million dollars’ is total nonsense….. (well except for bush TEA of course lol)

    This new-found value then becomes the driver, as the Dealers and Cartels then push and market the drug to promote their ‘business’.
    They also bribe officials; intimidate citizens; create a lawless society; lure children into the ‘business’ (- NOT primarily FOR THE DRUGS, but the money, power and thrill); etc.

    Despite the vast resources allegedly assigned to the war on drugs, practically ANYONE who wants to, can easily buy drugs….. even in our best schools.
    SO WHAT IS THE POINT???

    …may as well give the stuff away – at least then we would only have to worry about the idiots who let it ruin their lives….. cause the dealers and cartels would be in ruins.
    LOL – In Amused case, it seems to have worked out quite well…

    In any case, many of us who cuss and cry down this drug use, ourselves use alcohol with abandon; and live by regular doses of various prescription drugs to make us ‘feel better’ and deal with stress.
    …is that any different?


  22. I note with interest that the problem in Holland is with the foreign buyers not the locals . Maybe where they come from need to legalise it too ……..then the Dutch would not be so overwhelmed.

    People need to google and read the offerings of Professor David Nutt (don’t let the name fool u ๐Ÿ™‚ ). He was the former head of Britain’s advisory council on drugs or something like that but was fired because he said weed needed to be alot lower on the dangerous drugs scale and alcohol alot higher.

    Come on now……get over the holier than thou hang ups and realise this thing ain’t bout protecting us but runs lot deeper than that . politics , money , Big Pharma , big oil , textile industry………all of that tied up in it .But don’t get tie up that it is about us. Plus , the ‘War on Drugs’ is an abysmal failure . Nuff money spent , nuff people locked up , drug cartels making nuff money ……………and drug use still on the rise. The whole thing want looking at again .

    I agree with Bush tea fully , look to protect the children if anything but let a man smoke a joint if he want to or whatever else.


  23. @Bush Tea
    @Illuminator
    Both correct. I agree.

    @Anon(2). So??? Big bloddy deal!!!! At least I don’t illegally stalk people and hide down sewers and in drop boxes and behind false identities and passports – nor do I think that my occasionally having a puff of weed is going to attract the attention of Interpol, Homeland Security and the RCMP.

    @David. Barbados will not deciminalize weed. The answer is for the other so-called enlightened countries to do so and then Barbados will follow and the issue of people visiting us to get stoned will not exist. They will not need to visit us to do what can be done in their own countries – so, when they visit us, it will be for the same reasons as now, except certain gentlemen who walk our beaches offering overpriced weed will have to go and teef people’s limes and alloes and sell them instead to make money. And those ladies and gentlemen with badges (you know, the ones that can be so easily spotted) whose job it is to round up the weed sellers and buyers, will be out of a job and we can reduce the Police budget.

    @J. Thanks. I will use your share. But you should try it yourself, you know. You might like it. Never mind bout greeing, we bound to do so again sooner or later.


  24. What or who  is the ordinary man to believe?

    Medical Use of Marijuana Costs Some a Paycheck

    By JENNIFER MASCIA

    Published: August 28, 2010

     

    Residents  in 14 states and Washington can now appeal to their doctors for prescriptions for medical marijuana to help them with their pain. Their employers, however, may not be so understanding.

    In some cases, workers have been fired for failing drug tests despite having prescriptions saying, in effect, that what they are doing is legal according to the laws of their states.

    Read full article


  25. Peter Tosh – I Am That I Am

    Peter Tosh – I Am That I Am
    Interviews and Acoustic Versions
    โถ Herb Smoking
    โท His Philosophy
    โธ I Am That I Am โ™ซ
    โž Pick Myself Up โ™ซ
    โžŽ Don’t Wanna Get Busted โ™ซ
    โž Blacks Abilites / Teaching Marley Music


  26. It’s interesting to see that many people think decriminalization of drugs is a good thing, but yet, you read so much who hate the idea about how homosexuality could one day not be against the law in Barbados.

    Either way, changing both laws are a good idea. Both are victimless crimes, the former which could be treated as a medical issue, while the latter could be left alone, and both are a waste of money.


  27. @ E.D Wondling

    The main legal problem with homosexuals is that they seem to want the rest of us to accept their lifestyle as normal…..but IT IS NOT NORMAL.
    IT IS FREAKISH, UNNATURAL, AND SICK……
    but the bushman would agree -it should not be criminalized because of this.

    Do we criminalize people with life-sapping diseases? Do we criminalize those who suffer from mental abnormalities?
    ……well then we should also not criminalize those who suffer from such diseases of the chromosomes…

    However, just as we would not knowingly put a mad person to run the country, we should not listen to such ‘chromosome – challenged freaks’ for moral, spiritual or values guidance.

    So EDW may be correct. We should leave the druggies and the homos to go off on their own merry ways and have a blast – just leave the rest of us alone PLEASE.


  28. @Bush Tea
    “The main problem with homosexual……not normal”

    Cheers, well said! Couldn’t have said it better.

    I would add: They not only want us to consider the behavior normal, but want to force us to become like them


  29. There are differences that make it impossible to deal with marijuana and homosexuality in the same context.

    Marijuana is a plant placed upon the earth by the Good Lord. Homosexuality is a genetic condition (like heterosexuality) placed upon the earth by the Good Lord. And I prefer not to enter into judgment with the Good Lord, but to believe that He knows what he is doing.

    Marijuana is a plant. Homosexuals are people.

    In all major countries, marijuana is illegal, although some, most notably Canada, have allowed doctors to prescribe it to patients. Homosexuality is LEGAL amongst consenting adults.

    So the two are in no way connected, nor can they be. Unless some dolt is going to try to advance the theory that use of marijuana will lead to homosexuality or vice versa.


  30. @David. You open a whole new legal problem that needs to be addressed. I might also say that this could only happen in the USA where the individual states are allowed such autonomy.

    Anywhere else, there is likely legislation that clearly states that you may not discriminate, which would include against the disabled. Indeed, in many countries, of which the UK currently leads the way, there is a move afoot to get the disabled back to work and quite strong legislative protection for them in the work place. This said, therefore, employers generally cannot dismiss employees because they have taken prescribed drugs, unless the job they are doing requires (for the sake of safety) that they be drug-free. A complaint against such an employer (except in certain states) would lead to an official body proceeding against that employer on behalf of the employee.

    I think that as time passes, you are likely to see the protection of the rights of people who need to take prescribed meds of any kind, as well as protection for disabled employees, increased. I think you will find that the incident you have reported will rebound on the employers with resounding effect.


  31. @ Amused
    Bush Tea did not get the impression that anyone was saying that the two things were ‘connected’ as such.
    The point by EDW seems to be that the two things should be similarly exempted from criminalizing legislation… and BT concurs.

    Your logic about ‘God having created both marijuana and Homosexuals’ is not particularly helpful to the discussion. God created everything – both good and evil….. you would also need to establish some principle to suggest that the fact that God created something in itself means that it is OK to use or do that thing.

    Clearly God created some things to be adopted (good) and some things to be avoided (evil) in the pursuit of living a righteous life.
    ….there goes your whole case.
    You will need to come a lot better to justify that tampie that you have admitted to inhaling LOL.

  32. jeff cumberbatch Avatar
    jeff cumberbatch

    @John Walcott @12:55am

    How, precisely, does a homosexual FORCE one to be like them?


  33. @ Jeff

    ..perhaps by taking control of the law and redefining ‘normalcy’.

    …perhaps by manipulating the education system such that it unfairly predisposes innocents (children) to be attracted to, and swayed to, their warped (by previously normal standards’ way of life

    … perhaps by using the power of office to bully society into accepting (fearing to criticize them) that wrong is right.

    …perhaps by using the media to brainwash and overwhelm society with their lifestyle (like the tobacco people did for decades)

    …want more?

  34. jeff cumberbatch Avatar
    jeff cumberbatch

    Taking control of the law? Re-defining normalcy? These are just phrases, not serious thought, so I cannot comment on them. And I take it your other suggested initiatives have failed so far? Or have they been wildly successful in Barbados?


  35. Sorry Jeff – forgot that you are basically a lawyer…

    Taking control of the law means for example where a large enough lobby (of any type) manages to influence lawmakers to pass specific laws that are designed to facilitate their objectives.

    …for example, where developers may be able to get lands previously zoned for agriculture, (the previous “norm”) changed to allow for multimillion dollar developments…

    …where certain sexual deviants may be able to influence lawmakers to decriminalize previously illegal acts – (you know, like two men being able to legally marry becoming ‘normal’)

    ..of course these are just phrases too -so you need not comment.

    As to the success or failure of any of these ‘initiatives’ it is difficult to understand where you are coming from – since this was not the issue at hand. The bushman was simply throwing out possible answers to the question “How, precisely, does a homosexual FORCE one to be like them?”


  36. @Jeff Cumberbatch
    “Theses are just phrases and not serious thought…” Sure, they aren’t serious thought – beacause you can’t respond!

    By the way Mr. Cumberbatch, you have been quick on the draw. Are you a homo? Or, are you just a friend of the “marginalised, disenfranchised and “picked -upon” minority?
    JW

  37. jeff cumberbatch Avatar
    jeff cumberbatch

    My apologies for being, as you put it, “basically a lawyer”. I am still unclear however on your point about “taking control of the law” and its relationship to forcing someone to be or do something. Will this law provide that a person should become homosexual on pain of criminal sanction if he/she does not? Perhaps its because of my legal training, but I do not get your reasoning.

    And I would certainly like to meet the individual or lobby who caused us to criminalise (or not decriminalise ) oral sex between consenting adults in private under the title of “gross indecency”!

  38. jeff cumberbatch Avatar
    jeff cumberbatch

    With all due respect, my sexual orientation is my business, Mr Walcott, not yours.

    But, if you must know, I believe that the right to one’s sexual orientation is a basic human right, just like those of freedom of conscience and freedom of association.


  39. OK Jeff
    The Bushman will accept responsibility for poor communications resulting in your not following the ‘wishy’ washy reasoning.

    However if you cannot see the issues for established social norms that could result from a situation where a homosexual or lesbian PM for example decided to use the powers of their office to promote their lifestyle and values then so be it.

    The current legal battle for same sex marriages in the USA is a case in point. Once this becomes law there will be implications for many others-such as children who may become part of the arrangement; employers ; courts etc.

    Would you not agree then that such a lifestyle would have been ‘forced’ on some of those who would otherwise have preferred to be uninvolved?

    Obviously some ‘individual or lobby’ would have caused us to criminalize oral sex between consenting adults. Very likely, this would have been done by a group highly influenced by the Victorian era church.
    …just goes to show how interest groups can influence law-making in their own interest ‘forcing’ the rest of us to conform to their norms and values.
    …which was the initial point I believe.

  40. jeff cumberbatch Avatar
    jeff cumberbatch

    BT,

    I do believe that you mean well, but you should be more critical of accepted reasoning. Why should a homosexual PM use their statal powers to foist his or her sexual lifestyle on the citizens? What of their religious views? And do heterosexual leaders foist theirs?

    I hope that you recognise that you are now using “forced” in a special way, so we have no argument.

    I’m afraid also that you are historically inaccurate on your last point. We were not the creators of the law, it was taken from the UK who has since amended theirs. Thing is, why is there not a strong enough lobby to crusade for its repeal?


  41. If we think that a politician with influence would not use means to push his or her agenda, we are being strangers to the truth and friends of fiction. History (even current) is replete with examples of politicians and govt. officials abusing power.

    We can use the word “force” or you may want to use “influence”, to me, it is the same: 6 is 1/2 dozen.


  42. @Jeff Cumberbatch,
    Oh, I forgot about this one.
    No, your sexual orientation is MY business, beacause when you speak (as a publc and influential figure), I need to know that you are doing so without bias.


  43. @bush tea
    Come on! man you can do better than that ! Where is your sense of reasoning .


  44. @Bush Tea
    The laws that the homosexual are asking for has nothing to do with asking others to become homosexual . I think you are grabbing at straws to make a point


  45. Jeff
    “Why should a homosexual PM use their statal powers to foist his or her sexual lifestyle on the citizens?”
    ******************************************************
    Are you serious ?
    …because it is the natural human thing to do. And of course the same goes for religious views; And yes heterosexual leaders foist theirs too….

    When leaders are representative of those that they lead, there is no problem.
    BUT when minority interests take up leadership positions and seek to impose their ways – problems!!

    How was the bushman historically incorrect? I never said that WE were the creators of the law. I said it was obviously influenced by the Victorian age church. The fact that the originators in England has had a change of values only means that to the extent that they can still influence our decisions here (for example via the Privy Council) we may have change ‘forced’ upon us.

    You notice how we cannot hang a boy EVEN THOUGH the great majority of us are in favour of that penalty?
    ….values imposed on the majority.

  46. jeff cumberbatch Avatar
    jeff cumberbatch

    @JW,
    I cannot see how you can judge the validity or freedom from bias of any view I advance by reference to my sexual orientation. If I am influential, as you assume, it is because I speak and write with conviction on matters with which I have some familiarity, be I homosexual, player, family man or asexual.

    @BT

    We cannot hang a boy even though the majority is in favour of the death penalty because the majority has also expressed in law its favour of the right to a fair trial, the right to life, and freedom from cruel and unusual punishment. We only have to repeal these, and BAM, a neck pop. Are you willing to lead a lobby?

    Incidentally, do you think that most Bajans are opposed to oral sex between consenting adults in private? Would most of us be opposed to a change, even one forced upon us, to make this no longer criminal?


  47. @ Jeff
    We cannot hang a boy even though the majority is in favour of the death penalty because the majority has also expressed in law its favour of the right to a fair trial, the right to life, and freedom from cruel and unusual punishment.
    *******************************************************
    Man Jeff, the bushman is disappointed that you have decided to join with the likes of MME, GP and Not Saved to make mock sport at BT.
    What is it that you are saying ….?

    Man hanging is no more because a few influential persons used their influence (or were somehow influenced) to succumb our laws to external values.
    What majority what??!!
    LOL – When it suited a certain influential INDIVIDUAL some time ago, hanging was temporally and unceremoniously reinstated in Barbados….how dare you blame ordinary Bajans!!

    …and what is this burning concern about oral sex? There is a law against conch?? LOL – no wonder Not Saved is lost… ROTFL..
    Seriously Jeff, Bushie is disappointed that you of all people would try this line of argument.
    There is no law against oral sex between consenting adults.
    What law what!!!

    How many persons have been prosecuted in the last year? how many in jail? how many fined?

    A ‘law’ that is not enforced is no law. There are numerous other antiquated ‘Acts’ in our statute books that are best ignored and forgotten…… so relax and enjoy Jeff…. rotfl

  48. jeff cumberbatch Avatar
    jeff cumberbatch

    What a coincidence that some of those same “external values” find expression in our supreme law. And you had better be careful with the proposition that “a law that is not enforced is no law”….you might be forced to conclude that there is none against praedial larceny……or buggery either…LOL I enjoyed our discourse.


  49. A time for the discussion of whether marijuana should be legalized is becoming very important in our world right now. Like previously stated by many above, the war on drugs has failed. Prohibiting marijuana helps gangs make money. It is time for our government to do polls or have discussions on whether or not marijuana should be legalized in Barbados.

    Too many people are in jail for possession and use of marijuana and it is crowding our prison and costing the government a significant amount of money to not only accommodate prisons but to keep battling it. It has failed. The same way alcohol and cigarettes are distributed why not legalize, tax and regulate the distribution of marijuana? What effects does marijuana have on people that alcohol does not? People have the choice of whether they want to smoke a cigarette when they know the consequences of doing so can lead to cancer? Or drinking alcohol can have other severe health effects so why is marijuana so evil to society?

    The United States of America is now looking into legalizing marijuana in many states in order to build revenue and cut costs on court hearings and sending people to prison. There is money to be made for our government out of this and they will drive the gangs out by doing so. Who would you buy alcohol from when it is legalized and regulated? Government or someone on the street? I think most people would agree they would buy alcohol or a regulated product from the government. It is beneficial for a nation to start legalizing drugs such as marijuana. What i find hypocritical about this whole situation is that marijuana was made illegal based on lies and racism in order to deport Mexicans out of the United States many years ago and now they are the same ones who are legalizing it because they have realized the war on drugs has failed and they are actually fueling gang activity to continue by prohibiting cannabis.

    For those who think legalization is a step backwards in battling substance abuse within youth well i think it is time for some people to open their eyes. People need to be given the choice to do what they want with their bodies. Just because someone has a drink does not mean they are an alcoholic and many members of society that are very productive and intelligent smoke pot. Stop criminalizing this drug. It makes it easier for people to buy marijuana when it is prohibited! It is an underground world that is making millions if not billions of dollars from this prohibition of it!

    It will be even harder for people to get hold of the drug if it is legalized and regulated and sold at certain venues where you can buy alcohol and such. There needs to be an age restriction put in place and identification needs to be shown and this rule needs to be enforced strongly.

    America has realized they are wasting money year after year with this silly law and are on the verge of legalizing…It’s time Barbados looked into this matter also.


  50. @Michael

    It is obvious that you are trying to encourage discussion on this matter and for common sense reasons there is, in my opinion need to rethink the strategy our governments have towards illegal substances. There is also the probability that some within the system are receiving a high rate of unofficial tax from Marijuana and the longer it remains illegal the more these individuals will gain.

    The plant contains a substance that is highly regarded as a medicine in it’s oil extracted state. Not used for smoking but for ingestion in small quantities or rubbed into the skin for skin cancers and other problems.

    Apart from changes in lifestyle and diet we also need effective medicines to combat some crucial health problems like cancers, diabetes, MS etc. Marijuana oil has apparently being used effectively in curing these ailments. Any attempt to legalise it should be more on this basis than for the sake of a recreational stimulant, although Michaels points of comparison with other legal substances are valid.

    They are however difficult to get through to the brains that are locked in a box. We all no someone who has suffered with and died from cancer or some other illness that a medicine like Marijuana may be able to alleviate. Think about it. There are people here who make the oil and distribute it, so far free of cost.

    Peace

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